Selling in-game items for real-world money

[SonicDeathMonk3y]

I was wondering how everyone here felt about people selling items in World of Warcraft on eBay, or any other online auction site for that matter. I, personally, see absolutely nothing wrong with it but I have heard from many other people who feel that profiting from a game is somehow wrong.

I also have trouble understanding why the game companies seem to be so adamantly against it. In what way is it hurting their business?

[Zann the Defender]

Well, plain and simple, it gives all the rich, upper class snobs the best items. They get items because they have money and not skill.

This is a horrid idea.

[SonicDeathMonk3y]

Well, I think obtaining good items in an online RPG has a lot more to do with how much time a person is willing to invest, and a lot less to do with the skill of that person. If some "rich, upper class snobs" want to invest a few hundred dollars rather then a few months of playing the game, I really do not have a problem.

[Zann the Defender]

It ruins the game. If you want an item you should get it yourself. Rich people would just start dominating the game, and soon, they get a character that is nearly impossible to beat just because they paid some one. This game involves skill, like the right second to use divine shield, or when to stun the target, what spells are good finishing moves, etc. Not "who can buy the best character" game.

[Aen]

I don't see the problem with it either.

If someone wants to sell their character/items that they have spent hours upon hours in getting, then by all means they should be able to if someone is willing to pay for it.

Most likely the person will only break even to little profit. It is just like they got to play the game for free, but the company still gets paid, and now a new customer is playing the game as well. I don't think the game companies care, rather than that they just can't come out and say that they don't.

[Zann the Defender]

Have fun with your "Who can buy the best character game" then. I would hate if WoW became all about money and buying the best char.

[SonicDeathMonk3y]

If you go on eBay and search for any popular MMORPG, you will find items for sale. Even Diablo II, which isn't even a MMORPG. These have been there for years, and unless eBay adopts a policy against them, they will be there for years. I have never heard anyone claim before that this practice has now become so common, that it ruins a game.

I would like to point out, that I would never consider buying an item for a game online in such a way. Probably only because I don't have the cash to waste on something so useless. On the other hand, I would very easily and have in the past SOLD items. If it is of no particular use to me, and I can find someone who will give me a few bucks for it, what is wrong with that?

[Furyon_Holyfist_]

People who have money to waste on game items still remain a small minority. WoW will never be ruined by it. Buying items doesn't make sense to me, but selling them is a good way to make some cash by playing a game you like.

[Zann the Defender]

I still dislike this idea. It goes to the people who can afford good characters. More and more people get etter items by buying them

[Sentinel]

You also have to remember it is technically illegal. When you purchase software you're purchasing the rights to use it, you're not actually buying the code. When you sell an in game item over ebay you're actually selling the game company's code, something you dont own.

A real world comparison would by renting a TV, then selling it as if owned it. You wouldnt be surprised if the rental company got upset now would you? Same can be said for games companies.

The bottom line however is that if someone is willing to buy items and what not there will always be sellers, regardless of how illegal it is.

I personally hate it, but mainly because it ruins the role playing feel. Some idiot coming into the world with a sudden twist of personality and what not annoys the hell outta me.

As for combat, no one who bought their char will be as talented as someone who raised their own, so it comes down to their items Vs your skill + items.

[WiglyWorm]

I suppose I have nothing against selling an item. Just with buying them. It's cheating, pure and simple. If you want an item, work for it, it's more rewarding that way, anyway. And since blizzard seems to have alot of garunteed drop items in instanced zones (am i wrong?) it seems even more pointless than usual.

[Xinhuan]

I have no problems with players selling items for real money. The people that actually do sell and buy them with real cash are a minority.

If I ever sell any items, I will never put up items for sale on an internet site though, I will only sell to people in my local region, where we can meet up face-to-face.

Incidentally, I would not be too worried, because, as WiglyWorm has pointed out, the best items must be gotten yourself, because they are all Bind-on-pickup, and hence you cannot purchase them from another player. Items bought from other players might be very good, but will never be the best.

[Booms]

I'm perfectly fine with people buying items/chars. If they want to spend the money, who cares?

And power to the people who are selling virtual items for $Cash Money Bling Bling$.

[Zann the Defender]

THAT IS THE POINT, THEY GET THE POWER! I DONT WANT THIS TO BECOME A GAME WHERE ITEMS ARE OBTAINED BY BUYING THEM! IT JUST WILL BE BORING! Some jerks will buy all the bst items, and laugh and kill players. Now, imagine rich jerks in every town, player killing because they have the best equuipment and nothing else is able to stop them. Now imagin in Faction vs. faction game, one guy has best equipment vs an army. He kills them all. It just turns into one person vs faction. That would suck to the extreme.

[Booms]

You've never played an MMO before, have you? Just about all MMO's have people buying and selling items and the game has remained perfectly fine. The people buying the items don't have enough time to work to get the item, so they fork over cash for it. They may not seem for, but you do realize they're spending real money for virtual items, right?

If I had 1,000 dollars to throw away I wouldn't blow it on high level characters in an MMO.

[Zann the Defender]

No mmos really :grrr:
but I know they are forking real money over for stuff, and I have friends that complain about the same thing to. Some have and some havnt played, but every one hates player killers, even me. I have played some at my friends house, and when I made a ne char, some one would call me a n00b and kill me. It sucked, I would hate to see this in WoW. If players just bought items, it becomes a game about money, not skill. I exagerated on my other post, as I do often, so get used to it

[Booms]

You're making a pretty big jump between people buying items and PK'ers. Although there probably are some PK'ers who buy items, you'd be better of going after PK'ers than people who buy/sell items.

[WiglyWorm]

THAT IS THE POINT, THEY GET THE POWER! I DONT WANT THIS TO BECOME A GAME WHERE ITEMS ARE OBTAINED BY BUYING THEM! IT JUST WILL BE BORING! Some jerks will buy all the bst items, and laugh and kill players. Now, imagine rich jerks in every town, player killing because they have the best equuipment and nothing else is able to stop them. Now imagin in Faction vs. faction game, one guy has best equipment vs an army. He kills them all. It just turns into one person vs faction. That would suck to the extreme.


Not really.. skill and game knowledge beats good items any day of the week.. i mean.. unless they have ALL the best gear.. and that would cost such silly ammounts of money i doubt anyone would do it. Also... it's not as big a problem as you seem to think it is.
Yes it sucks to find someone with ub3r l33t gear who knows absolutely jack about the game.. i've had it happen a few times over many years. But if you just make fun of them about it enough they leave your party/go cry to mommy. And if you don't like PKs don't play PvP, simple enough? this isn't Ultima Online where player killing was rampant. It's purely consentual. If you want to go up against PKs go to an areana/battle ground if you want the "thrill" of constantly being in danger of an attack then play on a PK server.

[Seflyn]

My main problem with it is that it can create agro between players.
There are enough stupid loot fights as it is, adding to it because item X is worth $500 on ebay just doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

I have to admit that being killed by someone in PvP because they got a super item off ebay doesn't really appeal to me. (Which is why I hope there are no "I win" items.)

[OverKill]

If I could make some good money for a character of mine I'd sell it fast. Then I'd make new ones and sell them later too lol.

[Dwalin]

to be honest those people have more money than sence...
i have never brought an item and never will ! :)

[DeVries]

I really don't care if people buy items/characters online. It's only really hurting themselves by being cheated out of the experience of obtaining it for themselves.

I knew a guy who bought a level 40 barbarian shaman on EQ awhile back. He swore up and down he knew how to play the class, even as he bound himself to an island and was repeatedly killed by a cyclops as he respawned... and lost 5 levels in the span of an hour or so. It took him a year to get back to level 40.

The point is, it's not really hurting anyone else's game experience (despite what Zann thinks), since they're not starting fresh with all the knowledge of the character someone would have if they played it from level one. Even a veteran player who bought a character of a class he'd never played before would be at a HUGE disadvantage.

[Incite_Riots]

You people saying it's ok don't get it ... just wait till the first time you get trained and griefed becase someone who's selling the items you are trying to obtain wants your camp spot.

Letting the real world economy have an impact upon the game world is always massively negative.

Hopefully if instancing is broadly used in WoW it won't be too bad, but it will still effect you in ways you won't realise.

RL money, = RL greed, and that's far worse than in game greed.

[the_guse]

last week i went to mohegan sun. its a casino here in new england. while walking through it, i watched this man who sat down at the slots. these slots were differant. they were spearated from the rest of the slots, but were still within reach of the bar. they had really nice chairs--nicer then all the other slots. when i walked up closer to take a look, i noticed these were 100$ slots. the man who was playing them not only was throwing away huge amounts of money seconds at a time, but was playing at max bet. thats 300$ a roll! in the matter of minutes i watched him throw away more money then i make in a year.
--my point is, there are worse things ppl can spend thier cash on then a game. i have no problems with ppl who buy online items.

[Incite_Riots]

last week i went to mohegan sun. its a casino here in new england. while walking through it, i watched this man who sat down at the slots. these slots were differant. they were spearated from the rest of the slots, but were still within reach of the bar. they had really nice chairs--nicer then all the other slots. when i walked up closer to take a look, i noticed these were 100$ slots. the man who was playing them not only was throwing away huge amounts of money seconds at a time, but was playing at max bet. thats 300$ a roll! in the matter of minutes i watched him throw away more money then i make in a year.
--my point is, there are worse things ppl can spend thier cash on then a game. i have no problems with ppl who buy online items.

Leave him be! We don't want his sort in our MMOGs! :uhhuh:

[Boing]

The problem with it as far as I can see is it totally circumvents the in game economy which all MMORPG designers put a lot of hard work into designing. The game isnt designed to be played that way and as such it shouldn't be allowed. Just because someone has enough money in their back pocket to buy an advantage doesnt mean they should be allowed to.

It also tends to sour the in-game experience as people who are farming for cash and items to sell for real money tend to get very very worked up about it if they dont get a specific item. I have also played other MMORPGs where people have used downright underhanded means to get items and cash just so they can sell them (for quite substantial amounts of money in some cases).

I just dont think it adds to the gaming dynamic in any way. If you want an item, buy it in game or look for it yourself... or heres a thought... make some friends in game and they might even help you!

[OneMadOgre]

It's something that the game terms didicate is illegal. Blizzard is headquartered here in the States, so I am going to be US-Centric for a bit. :) The laws here state that the objects are not really real, and instead are all the property of the developer. So techincally, they can ban your account or delete the items at a whim. Part of the problem of allowing an established real world market for the items is that you open up yourself to some lawsuits if you ban accounts that are farming and the company sues you for loss of trade. Or if you nerf the "Boots of Gnome Punting" and everybody with those items for sale sue you for loss value. There are a million prickly pears in the legal waters on this, must of it has not been tested in court. But if you can really lay claim to a character or item as yours, then does Blizzard need to keep the game going forever? What if they closed it down? Would you sue for theft or swindle and would the code that defined that object or character be sufficent to justify the ownership claim?

Legally the best metaphor I saw is that you are not owning your items or characters any more than you own an appartment you rent. You may do the work and paint the walls and change the light blubs, but it isn't yours. Heck, your contract is only month to month at that. :)

So that said, lots of things are illegal and are bought and sold everyday. In the real world, there are actually companies built by having players in countries like China and Mexico play the game constantly and farm items and characters for sale. They take advantage of the labor conditions to sell time on the game to another person who wants to play, but doesn't want to put in the grind to get to a high level. This is not going to go away even if it is legal.

So Blizzard combats this in a number of ways. (A) they try to reduce farming with instancing and bind of pick up items. Can't sell these, best you could do is sell the account. (B) make all of the levels interesting. I have wanted very much to spend the time SoleSteeler and Scorch have to play and have high level characters. Between the family, day job and the fansite, I haven't had as much time to play as I might have liked. But the game is still fun even for me down here in the teens and low 20s instead of the 30s, and 40s.

I think they may have a good angle on the selling of items. Too hard to get the ones necessary to make a living. I still think they are going to have a problem with selling accounts. We'll have to see. It is a beta afterall. :)

sorry so long. Ogres have two heads and thus say twice as much as everyone else.

[Etra]

You've never played an MMO before, have you? Just about all MMO's have people buying and selling items and the game has remained perfectly fine.
Where have you been? ::pokes Boom::

Diablo II turned to poo with all the buying and selling items. When I finally got good items I noticed people were going "Selling ianfiuoadnfiaerf 4 $30!!!!!111" in channels. And those items were better than mine. Now people with too much money than they need would buy them and get even better than me, and they probably have no skill in the game what-so-ever.

And lets look at Ragnarok Online (P2P ver. not Beta). People buy and sell crap on that all the time, now its totally pointless to even try to get good things. All the people that suck bought their armor/weapons (how do I know they suck? I totally owned them in PvP with a 1st class job while they were 2nd and much stronger than I was) have all the good stuff. While I have to spend hours and hours killing/questing for it myself.

Yay! G0g0 buying and selling items for money because we like to cheat! (Yeah, its cheating. It's like a gameshark but you have to pay everytime you want to use a new code (code=get new item).

(It was a good idea for Blizzard to put binding items in, now I don't have to worry about it. ;o )

[feed_those_kitties]

Man, I need more caffeine.

For some reason I read that as "Real weird money", and I couldn't figure out why you wanted "weird" money...

Is it Friday, yet?? :yawn:

[Zann the Defender]

My points exactly, I havent played many MMO's but I have played games where people bought stuff. It was the worst thing. Ruins the game.

IT IS ILLEGAL AND IT IS CHEATING!

WoW becomes a game of "How much money you have" (it requires so much skill to go to ebay and search for WoW items) and players have no skill. It becomes boring for every one.

[Taelnayael]

My points exactly, I havent played many MMO's but I have played games where people bought stuff. It was the worst thing. Ruins the game.

IT IS ILLEGAL AND IT IS CHEATING!

WoW becomes a game of "How much money you have" (it requires so much skill to go to ebay and search for WoW items) and players have no skill. It becomes boring for every one.

If this game is so much about skill and you obviously have it, don't you realize that the items on a sucky player are only going to go so far? Plus with your far superior skill wouldn't it be rather easy to earn the same items that they spent their money on?

[Zann the Defender]

I am not saying I have skill, I am saying this game would involve no skill if people bought the best equipment. I could get these items in parties, and will try to get my char good, but skill does not always triumph over equipment, like if they have all the best items for level 60, and your level 40 with one best item.

[Taelnayael]

I am not saying I have skill, I am saying this game would involve no skill if people bought the best equipment. I could get these items in parties, and will try to get my char good, but skill does not always triumph over equipment, like if they have all the best items for level 60, and your level 40 with one best item.

They could be naked at level 60 and kill you easily at 40. The way that power works in this game is almost exponential. A better example for you to use would be equal levels wearing the same gear. IE A Human warrior versus an Undead warrior, both with identical skill sets, talent points. The only difference being gear then yes, the Undead with bought gear in this example, is more than likely to win.

The thing with people buying in game items for real world cash is usually one of necessity and or lack of time. So for one they are more than likely not going to know all the intracacies of their class which will give someone who played and explored and quested for their gear a signifigant advantage. Also with the way that quests are set up more than likely someone who purchases gear is going to have subpar versus what is attained in the process of questing. Which going back to the previous statement, since they are buying gear to get around time constraints, they will have done nothing but grind exp, and avoided quests more than likely. That or if they are smart they will have quested till about 40 to maximize their time in game, and well will still have earned it. All in all I understand your frustration, but itemization in WoW has made it so that you cannot have the best gear in game unless you quest. That or you manage to get people to run you through instances and let you loot everything.

[hellzguardian]

Hmmm personally I'd have to say I'm againt the buying selling items for WoW thing.I've played D2 for years and The buying/selling thing ruined it +Botting since you can buy most elite items cheap and be better then people who have played much longer.But a problem with D2 was the whole games pretty muchly based on cookie cutterness and elite items.Well I think Blizzard has pretty muchly tried to make items a little less powerful so your char matters a bit too in WoW but there is bound to be items that still are totally awesome and I don't like the idea of people just buying them and being better then those who have played the game for awhile.
Bottom line=Me no likey buy items :D

[Booms]

Where have you been? ::pokes Boom::

Diablo II turned to poo with all the buying and selling items. When I finally got good items I noticed people were going "Selling ianfiuoadnfiaerf 4 $30!!!!!111" in channels. And those items were better than mine. Now people with too much money than they need would buy them and get even better than me, and they probably have no skill in the game what-so-ever.

And lets look at Ragnarok Online (P2P ver. not Beta). People buy and sell crap on that all the time, now its totally pointless to even try to get good things. All the people that suck bought their armor/weapons (how do I know they suck? I totally owned them in PvP with a 1st class job while they were 2nd and much stronger than I was) have all the good stuff. While I have to spend hours and hours killing/questing for it myself.

Yay! G0g0 buying and selling items for money because we like to cheat! (Yeah, its cheating. It's like a gameshark but you have to pay everytime you want to use a new code (code=get new item).

(It was a good idea for Blizzard to put binding items in, now I don't have to worry about it. ;o )

D2 isn't a MMORPG. And Ragnarok sucked.

Successful MMORPG's, like Everquest and DAOC, haven't been hurt by selling/buying of items. Everquest sucks because its a crappy game, but people buying/selling items did not ruin the game (or even harm it too much).

[OneMadOgre]

They could be naked at level 60 and kill you easily at 40. The way that power works in this game is almost exponential. A better example for you to use would be equal levels wearing the same gear. IE A Human warrior versus an Undead warrior, both with identical skill sets, talent points. The only difference being gear then yes, the Undead with bought gear in this example, is more than likely to win.

The thing with people buying in game items for real world cash is usually one of necessity and or lack of time. So for one they are more than likely not going to know all the intracacies of their class which will give someone who played and explored and quested for their gear a signifigant advantage. Also with the way that quests are set up more than likely someone who purchases gear is going to have subpar versus what is attained in the process of questing. Which going back to the previous statement, since they are buying gear to get around time constraints, they will have done nothing but grind exp, and avoided quests more than likely. That or if they are smart they will have quested till about 40 to maximize their time in game, and well will still have earned it. All in all I understand your frustration, but itemization in WoW has made it so that you cannot have the best gear in game unless you quest. That or you manage to get people to run you through instances and let you loot everything.
Couldn't agree more with the Power statement. I challenged SoleSteeler's rogue last night and was dead in two blows as a 17th Shaman. He was, what SoleSteeler, 27th? Level is everything.

[Bunsen]

I don't have a problem with people paying money for game stuff; I have a problem with money people pay not going to the developer. If the developer wanted to, they could just hand out level 50 (or whatever) characters to anyone who asked, if that helped people enjoy the game. The reason they don't do that (or sell stuff themselves) is because they don't want to admit so many people hate so much of their game.

Paying money for a character or items is essentially paying for the privilege of skipping large parts of the game. It's not "right" or "wrong", it's just a sign that there is a pretty major flaw in the design.

I suspect Blizzard will take the same approach to this as they have to most problems: Don't fight it, just design it out in the first place.

[Psyco]

Well it just ruin an mmorpg more(and if you dont think it doing a differance than think a little bit about what this bring),but if you dont care about a game that could actually destroy Eq and actually listen to the player oppinion well ok lets sell our char and item.There are alots of bad stuff like that in mmorpg and you guys are encouraging this???...http://search.ebay.com/world-of-warcraft_W0QQsokeywordredirectZ1QQfromZR8 tssss there isnt much stuff in life thats worth it and still you want to keep destroying stuff that is worth it...might as well return to Eq where the ebayer dont affect me anymore cause most of my friend when they see this return to Eq and it as happen in pretty much all new mmorpg....so i follow cause i dont want to play alone whit only moron ebayer that either dont know how to play cause there high lvl right away or either griefer or moron.

Oh and for the casino guy you probly make him is money that he is spending stupidly instead of using it to help people...LOL :thumbsup:

So my point is....MAN THIS WORLD IS FUN HAHAHAHA...were all gonna die like moron,continue to let yourself be slave of the rich that have no heart :howdy: :lol:

[Zann the Defender]

Im saying if some one buys a character (60 most likely) with all best items (or good items they can afford), it becomes so POINTLESS! Buying and selling are horrid ideas, it is cheating.

AR or Gameshark, except you have to pay every time u use it

[DeVries]

You people saying it's ok don't get it ... just wait till the first time you get trained and griefed becase someone who's selling the items you are trying to obtain wants your camp spot.

Letting the real world economy have an impact upon the game world is always massively negative.

Hopefully if instancing is broadly used in WoW it won't be too bad, but it will still effect you in ways you won't realise.

RL money, = RL greed, and that's far worse than in game greed.

Griefing is griefing, whether it's for real money, or an item that that power gamer wants. The same training incident would happen without ebaying anyways, because people want the item so sell for ingame money, or to use for themselves. The Commander rune spawn in Shadowbane is a constant gank-fest, and believe me, no one is selling that thing on ebay (because no one gives a rats *** about Shadowbane).

You can't stop people from selling game items/accounts for money, so don't waste your time worrying about it. If someone trains you, take screenshots and get a chatlog, and send it to the GM's.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I was wondering how everyone here felt about people selling items in World of Warcraft on eBay, or any other online auction site for that matter. I, personally, see absolutely nothing wrong with it but I have heard from many other people who feel that profiting from a game is somehow wrong.

I also have trouble understanding why the game companies seem to be so adamantly against it. In what way is it hurting their business?

I think it's a horrible idea. Basically, it's a method to steal money from people. Because - the money you spend to get the item in that game is really wasted money. What do you have to show for it - that you give money to have an item for a character. What happens if that company which operates/runs the game shuts it down - now what do you have? Not a damned thing.

And why would buisnesses be upset about people doing this? Partly, its the same reason they get upset if you redistribute copies of the software you bought from them. They want to be the only ones who make money from their product (which is understandable to a point), and are usually very jealously protective of this. Partly, it's because of any legal ramifications - people suing that the item they recieved in the game wasn't what they thought it was or paid for - and since the company that runs the game, well, runs the game, they need to ensure there's no legal doubt as to their position on this. Now, I'm relatively surprised that there's been no company to integrate some sort of internal pay system within the game that people can use real money to buy items if they desire (like an integrated paypal-like system), but I think that's been shot down also because of legal ramifications, and because it might very well offend many players and cause their customerbase to reduce (too high of a risk).

[Zann the Defender]

Too summarize what I and others have said:

IT IS ILLEGAL
IT IS A GAME OF SKILL, NOT MONEY!

For those who do not understand this concept, do not play, youll only ruin this game for people who actually want to game.

[the_guse]

Too summarize what I and others have said:

IT IS ILLEGAL
IT IS A GAME OF SKILL, NOT MONEY!

For those who do not understand this concept, do not play, youll only ruin this game for people who actually want to game.

i really dont care ether way, but after reading your many posts on this thread ive come to the conclusion your really against this whole selling in game items for cash thing. :)
--first of all, like OMO stated, it has never been tested in court. so unless congress makes an actual law, or a judge declares it illegal, then it technically is legal. dont give me this crap about how a judge would make his or her decision, when the fact is; they have yet to do so and maybe never will.
as for this being a game of skill, i have yet to play it so i cant comment on it. alot of ppl on these forums say that d2 was ruined by the online selling. i have to disagree. online selling of d2 items started at day 1, yet the game was ruined at least a year later. this was due to the hacks and bots, and bliz's lack of stopping them. wether or not it was releated to the online sales of items is irrevelant, because if you were to take away those hacks and bots, the game would still of been as enjoyable today as it was on day 1.

[Zann the Defender]

It's something that the game terms didicate is illegal. Blizzard is headquartered here in the States, so I am going to be US-Centric for a bit. The laws here state that the objects are not really real, and instead are all the property of the developer. So techincally, they can ban your account or delete the items at a whim. Part of the problem of allowing an established real world market for the items is that you open up yourself to some lawsuits if you ban accounts that are farming and the company sues you for loss of trade. Or if you nerf the "Boots of Gnome Punting" and everybody with those items for sale sue you for loss value. There are a million prickly pears in the legal waters on this, must of it has not been tested in court. But if you can really lay claim to a character or item as yours, then does Blizzard need to keep the game going forever? What if they closed it down? Would you sue for theft or swindle and would the code that defined that object or character be sufficent to justify the ownership claim?




The thing here is, all items in this game are encoded by binary language. These items and codes are actually property of blizzard, and selling it in game is ok to blizzard, but selling it outside fo the game for actual money is stealing a code from blizzard. I mean illegal in the game, not outside. Blizzard has exclusive rights to all accounts, and can shut them down for such actions. You do not own these items, blizzard is merely lending them to you, and when you sell it, it is like selling an apartment (if your not the owner of that aparment complex that is). You do not OWN it, you just are renting it from blizzard.

[Syndakit]

It ruins the game. If you want an item you should get it yourself. Rich people would just start dominating the game, and soon, they get a character that is nearly impossible to beat just because they paid some one. This game involves skill, like the right second to use divine shield, or when to stun the target, what spells are good finishing moves, etc. Not "who can buy the best character" game.

If this game involves skill, why are you worried? You contradict yourself. First you say rich people would dominate the game cause they can buy the best chars, then you say this game takes skill to know when to use divine shield etc...you cant buy that on ebay, last I checked.

[Zann the Defender]

Eh... I am more worried about PKers buying the best stuff. I can tell you, even a level 40 with so much skill only goes so far on a level 60.

Also it is against the game and makes it a game of money and not skill. "Who can buy the best char".

Imagine this: A level 60 char bought vs. you (60 as well)
You own him. Every time. In PvP it takes away challenge. In FvF a level 60 char is gonna kill most of the lower levels. One naked level 60 can take a best item equiped level 40, easily.

[Syndakit]

It doesnt matter, they are just buying a character, that someone else had. You make it sound like they are buying some secret character. the only thing that is happening is change of ownership, and there is nothing wrong with that. You make it sound like 1 guy could take over the game...uhhh no.

And you can sublet your apartment for more money, and thats not illegal. So your analogy doesnt work.

Basically the only reason blizzard "opposes" this is because if they didnt, they would look like tools. But will they do anything about it? NO. Have they ever? NO.

[Zann the Defender]

It makes the game about money. It goes to the rich. Every person with extra money will be level 60. People should have to work for that, not go to ebay. I am talking about in FvF one person who bought a 60 could dominate several people. Now imagine more people with level 60s. This game would be spoiled. Do you not get that?

Are you going to buy a character or level one?

And 60s are meant to dominate lower levels.

2 level 5s cannot take a level 10 (without passive abillities).

[Syndakit]

Imagine this: A level 60 char bought vs. you (60 as well)
You own him. Every time. In PvP it takes away challenge. In FvF a level 60 char is gonna kill most of the lower levels. One naked level 60 can take a best item equiped level 40, easily.

Im beating the bought character, so therefor bought characters are bad?? HUH? And then you contradict yourself again by saying even the best equipped(even if bought on ebay) level 40 will still lose to my level 60. SO far, ebay has not affected me.....

[Syndakit]

It makes the game about money. It goes to the rich. Every person with extra money will be level 60. People should have to work for that, not go to ebay. I am talking about in FvF one person who bought a 60 could dominate several people. Now imagine more people with level 60s. This game would be spoiled. Do you not get that?

Are you going to buy a character or level one?

And 60s are meant to dominate lower levels.

2 level 5s cannot take a level 10 (without passive abillities).

Again, you are failing to understand the concept of "CHANGE OF OWNERSHIP". Those level 60's still needed to be worked on, they didnt just MAGICALLY appear. Who cares if a level 60 beats you if it was bought. He STILL would of beat you if it wasnt sold, so whats your point? There wont be massive amounts of level 60's just because they are being sold....the sellers are not duplicating them.

Your argument is still flawed.

[Zann the Defender]

All right. Think about this. A Rich PKer kills Billy. Billy gets mad and saves for a bought character. Billy kills the bought user and laughs. Billy starts PKing because it is one of the only real challenges left.

In PvP: You vs a bought 60 char. You win against him, EVERYTIME. Is that fun to win EVERY TIME and never loose? Next, Billy is up, having given in skills for a better char, you fight him and win. Always winning.

I think it is better to have an equal match some times.

Somebody buys a level 60, and your char is level 40. He decides to PK in the town that you start in. He kills you every time. Having fun yet?

Every one quits warcraft because all of the bought chars. The bought chars leave because they have no skill and cant kill somthing a level 56 can. Soon there is only a few playing.

Still having fun?

[Syndakit]

All right. Think about this. A Rich PKer kills Billy. Billy gets mad and saves for a bought character. Billy kills the bought user and laughs. Billy starts PKing because it is one of the only real challenges left.


PKing is great, good for billy.


In PvP: You vs a bought 60 char. You win against him, EVERYTIME. Is that fun to win EVERY TIME and never loose? Next, Billy is up, having given in skills for a better char, you fight him and win. Always winning.

I think it is better to have an equal match some times.

if I kept fighting the same guy over and over again, obviously its fun, or else why would I continue to do it??(as your example suggests)


Somebody buys a level 60, and your char is level 40. He decides to PK in the town that you start in. He kills you every time. Having fun yet?

Too bad that is an unlikely event, which will happen whether the character is bought or not anyways. It would frustrate me regardless... Im not going to go "Oh man he killed me in town 20times but oh well....wait....it was a BOUGHT character? NOW IM MAD!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"


Every one quits warcraft because all of the bought chars. The bought chars leave because they have no skill and cant kill somthing a level 56 can. Soon there is only a few playing.

Still having fun?

I hope you are not serious with this last one....

[Zann the Defender]

You would be suprised. People like me complain about bought characters. Bought characters are useless, you get no skill, and you cant kill somthing other lower level (like 56) players can. they will eventaully get bored of trying, and may start PKing cuz it is the only real thing they can do, or they are stronger then anything else. I hate bought players because they just bought them. No work at all. It pisses me off even more that it is bought because they are otherwise such a low level they cant kill you or even dent you. People get tired of this BS that people bought these chars they just dont find the game fun anymore. They quit. The PKers get bored and try to PK each other, and it gets boring for them because there are no more lower levels. They quit cuz they cant PK people and every one else is a higher level.

In PvP here is how it ruins it:
You play this one guy who bought a char. He has no skill whatso ever. You kill him. You fight another bought one. You win. You play a character that has worked for it, and you are having a great time fighting him. You move on to the next one because you hope it is an even better player. It is a bought one and u pwn him. When one bought char goes to WoW there will be more. Alot more.

[Etra]

D2 isn't a MMORPG. And Ragnarok sucked.
Okay...Diablo II isn't a MMORPG..should I give you a cookie or something? It still ruined the game..o_O

And if Ragnarok sucks so much then why has it been translated into 10 languages legally? Hmm...

[ Yeah, I know. My post is off topic, sorry. ^^; ]

[Zann the Defender]

There are more things buying and selling items/characters have ruined. It is ok for the game money (items), and questing items bind people to them, so it is good for that. For real world money, it really sucks.

Dont be a bought char, work for it yourself, youll be better then some loer levels, but some lower levels could pwn you.

[SonicDeathMonk3y]

The thing here is, all items in this game are encoded by binary language. These items and codes are actually property of blizzard, and selling it in game is ok to blizzard, but selling it outside fo the game for actual money is stealing a code from blizzard. I mean illegal in the game, not outside. Blizzard has exclusive rights to all accounts, and can shut them down for such actions. You do not own these items, blizzard is merely lending them to you, and when you sell it, it is like selling an apartment (if your not the owner of that aparment complex that is). You do not OWN it, you just are renting it from blizzard.

It is not as if the people are TAKING these things from Blizzard. It is still within their control, and no one is challenging their ownership of it. Those selling are not selling the ownership of the item, but the time and effort expended to obtain said item.

It would be more like, renting an apartment and then running a business out of it.

[Zann the Defender]

Listen to this. Blizzard still controls the product and the player profits. Win-win situation huh? Nope, it is as burning a warcraft 3 CD and selling it. Blizzard still owns the product, but it has been sold without their permission

[SonicDeathMonk3y]

Listen to this. Blizzard still controls the product and the player profits. Win-win situation huh? Nope, it is as burning a warcraft 3 CD and selling it. Blizzard still owns the product, but it has been sold without their permission

It is nothing like that. In that situation, Blizzard loses a potential customer and therefore any revenue that customer may have brought them. How is Blizzard losing from someone buying a character online? Would that person otherwise have bought that character from Blizzard?

[Zann the Defender]

I know what you are saying. Basically, they dont steal the game, they steal a code. A code which is part of the game. Basically you steal part of the game.

[Zann the Defender]

Also, players who hate people who buy chars. and items (it ruined countless games) will just start quitting. This game is supposed to be about "Who has the skill to quest for this item?" Not "Who has the money to buy this char./item!". It just gets so every one will cheat and buy a char.

Have you ever used a Game Shark? In final fantasy, you can level up to 99 with those. At first, maxed out Characters are great and all, but then they are just too strong. Nothing is a chllenge any more so you quit. There you have more people quitting. Soon blizzard wont get enough $$$ to keep running the WoW servers, and they just shut it down.

[DeVries]

Zann, you seriously need to take a step back and cool down. As Syndakit TRIED explaining to you, these level 60 characters would exist WITH OR WITHOUT a market to buy them. You keep saying that these "bought characters" will own everyone in the game, and yet directly afterwards you say that these people will have no skill and not be able to kill anything. How exactly does this work? How can they be better than players but not monsters or players who fight monsters?

You act as if every level 60 character out there will be bought, and that everyone playing the game will do it and ruin it to hell. This is not the case at all. EVERY MMO with items has a market for selling them in the real world. Best example: Everquest. People live off of money they make playing this game, and it's the STRONGEST MMO out there right now, and it's only real competitor is DAOC, which also has an extremely strong following, and a market for "ebayed" items and accounts.

Fact is, selling items and accounts does not hurt the game at all. These items and characters are not being automatically generated and sold to other people. Players spend weeks or months getting them to where they are, and then merely transfer ownership. Blizzard does not lose any money because they aren't selling items for cash, in fact, in the case of account selling, they're MAKING money from people buying the game at the store and then paying the monthly fee.

I'll cite my first-hand experience with this again: guy I know buy's a level 40 shaman on EQ and has NO idea how to play the class (just like every other person who's ever bought an account). He loses five levels right after that because he has no idea what he's doing. This proves your point that the players have less skill, and invalidates your other points that it ruins the experience of other players by them being "uber".

No hardcore PK'er would ever buy an account, why would he? To be the best he can be, he needs to know his class inside and out. The ONLY way to do this is to build the character up from level one PERSONALLY. People buying accounts does not increase PKing AT ALL. The majority of people who buy accounts and items are not hardcore players, they are casual gamers who want the chance to experience the end game for themselves, because they don't have the time to get to level 60 on their own. Hopefully this will calm you down a bit and make you see reason.

[Wickedly_Evil]

I am sure the game takes some degree of skill. That being said any fool given enough time can prosper in a mmo. I've seen in it several other games and I am sure it will be no different in WoW. They take longer to achieve that which a skillful player achieves, but over a long enough time frame it is possible.

There are several loopholes you could probably get away with in selling your character. For one you could always just call it a sale of information. (The information in question being your account name and password). The sale of information is perfectly legal as long as it does not include military or government secrets.

Online gaming companies could easily stop the transfer of accounts if they cared who was paying the bill. That's the problem however, as they really don't care as long as someone is paying. When I stopped paying for my everquest character and someone else took up the bill no one batted an eye. Everyone seems to be pretty happy with the transfer. I was paid more money than I had ever invested into the game. SOE is still getting their monthly payment (just not from me). The third party now has a powerful enchanter bot which he is more than satisfied with.

This brings up the next point, that time is money. Play devil's advocate for a moment. Don't you think a rich man might be upset that some teenagers play this game for 20 hour stretches? How does it really cause a problem? Both end up in the same place they just got there by a different route.

Yea it sucks when someone says, "No, sorry it's not for trade. But you can buy it by sending 30$ to my paypal account." On the other hand if I could make a quick 50$ by summoning someone to an instance to loot an item from the boss I might. Does that make me scum? I don't think so. I think it just makes me an opportunist. Before someone mentions it yes I am aware that summoning requires 1 warlock and 2 others, but it was just an example.

[Spitfireisgod]

I will be in support of selling ingame items.

Will I be a buyer? No.

Will I be a seller? Yes.

All I am selling is my time invested in the game, thats it. I am just selling the time involved for me to gather the resources and craft the item. Its neither of our property, I am just telling the effort of doing it because somebody it too lazy to play the game for themself. Selling Items In-Game does not hurt the economy as much as you say, as long as I am making the ingame cash in legitimate fashions (no harvestbots or scamming), then I do not see a wrong.

[Booms]

Okay...Diablo II isn't a MMORPG..should I give you a cookie or something? It still ruined the game..o_O

And if Ragnarok sucks so much then why has it been translated into 10 languages legally? Hmm...

[ Yeah, I know. My post is off topic, sorry. ^^; ]

Lineage was the biggest MMORPG in Korea, does that make it good?

And there is a very different dynamic found in an MMORPG than found in Diablo II, the effects of buying/selling items are very very different on the two genres (besides the fact Diablo II isn't a genre, lol).

[Booms]

Thank you DeVries!

You are one of the best posters on this forum. :thumbsup:

[DeVries]

Thank you DeVries!

You are one of the best posters on this forum. :thumbsup:


I... I don't know what to say! It make me so happy!! :hanky:

Haha, in all seriousness, thanks much for the compliment! I do my best to sound reasonable and to post in a logical manner. I can't take all the credit, though, this forum is probably the most mature one I've ever seen, so it really helps when I don't get flamed for not being a d3wd :lol:

I'm really hoping to win the PA beta key contest so that I can post some journals and answer questions that everyone has. Well, here's to luck! :drink:

[Zann the Defender]

60 regardless of skill, can own a character at level 50. some creatures are as strong as a 60, and they will not be able to kill what a level 56 or so could kill. That is my point.

I know they will exsist regaurdless, but it is not fair for the people who cannot afford these. It has ruined countless games. I have heard it ruined Diablo, ragnarock, and such.

Here is what can happen: 60's cannot kill any of the stronger monsters cuz they have no skill, and decide to either hunt lower levels or PK. People who are being PKed get tired and either log off or buy a char. Soon every one is a high level, and PKers have no one to PK, and the people who farm characters have no more buisness. It becomes boring and the PKers log off. Pretty soon there is not much more people and Blizzard has to raise the prices on the monthly fee. People hate this and stop playing, then blizzard has to shut it down.

Also here is another reason why it is bad: All the codes in this game belong to blizzard. You do not onw these codes or items, or even characters, blizzard lends them to you. When you sell them for a profit, you sell what blizzard owns. Think of this: Your friends lends you a video game and you sell it for your own money. It is not like selling a WoW burned copy, its more like a piece of WoW. As far as I know this is considered theft.

[SonicDeathMonk3y]

I know they will exsist regaurdless, but it is not fair for the people who cannot afford these. It has ruined countless games. I have heard it ruined Diablo, ragnarock, and such.

That isn't true. Bots and hacks ruined Diablo. As for Ragnarok.... it was ruined by poor designed from the start.

Here is what can happen: 60's cannot kill any of the stronger monsters cuz they have no skill, and decide to either hunt lower levels or PK.

What are you basing this claim on?? You are, for some reason, assuming that all people that buy characters online are going to PK lower levels? I can guarantee you that buying characters has absolutely no bearing on wether or not you are a PKer, and that the fact of the matter is the vast majority of PKers raised their characters themselves. The amount who bought them is so small, as to make no difference in the long run.

Also here is another reason why it is bad: All the codes in this game belong to blizzard. You do not onw these codes or items, or even characters, blizzard lends them to you. When you sell them for a profit, you sell what blizzard owns. Think of this: Your friends lends you a video game and you sell it for your own money. It is not like selling a WoW burned copy, its more like a piece of WoW. As far as I know this is considered theft.

Once again... as I have said before... no one is claiming to own anything that belongs to Blizzard. When people sell an item, what they are really selling is the effort and time put into obtaining that item, and transfering the account/character that has it.

And once again, your analogy makes no sense at all. No one is taking anything from Blizzard.

[Zann the Defender]

What else is there to do when you have no skill, your at level 60, and have no idea what to do with your character. Sure helping may be fun for a while, but there is nothing to do at level 60. Sure, Arthas is in the game, but he is gonna be hella tough, and hella strong. Some people wont even know who he is, let alone know where to fight him.

Do you want warcraft to become a game about money?? It just goes to the rich and who can afford it? I do not think that is fair. Only the rich get to have the better higher level chars, while every one else has to level them. The game looses it's point at level 60 so you start a new char. The rich just buy another, and another and get bored of it.

Some people enjoy seeing people suffering or PKed simply cuz they go "WTF!! YOU ***!". This could cause people to buy better chars and kill that pker, and possibly more people. That is how PKing could be tied to this.

[SonicDeathMonk3y]

Why is it any of my business what the person who buys a level 60 character wants to do with it? All I am saying is that he should be allowed to buy it.

I, like most here, would simply start another character probably, but maybe he wants to strut his level 60-ness around all the time...? I don't know, and don't care.

[Zann the Defender]

You will care when people in towns are clue less, and you have to tell them what makes what. What does what and such. And I am sure people who lovve t PK could buy some high level characters, buy best tiems, and simply PK. It will really suck if people just start buying chars so they can survive. Every one jumps to level 60. It becomes boring for a few who cannot survive some pk (this always happens) and they siply do not play. Soon people are high levels and PKrs cannot PK. They stop playing. Soon you have a select few (friends tell friends to stop playing cuz no one is on anymore) and people stop playing. Blizzard has to rise the monthly fee to keep profit comming, and people quit because of that. People quit playing and Blizzard shuts it down.

I hate seeing High-Level Newbs. They always ask for some form of help, insult you and/or pwn you.

[DeVries]

I didn't want to have to do this, but Zann, you are an idiot. I don't care if this is construed as a flame, because it honestly has to be said. You have no idea what you are talking about, as stated yourself: I have heard it ruined Diablo, ragnarock, and such. You heard ?? This is not first-hand information, and it is completely incorrect. I played BOTH Diablos on battle.net, and it was NOT the selling of items that ruined play, it was the bots and hacks. I don't know why you have such an unfounded fear of "bought" characters. If you don't want to be killed be a high level character, then don't play on a PvP server, and don't go into high level neutral areas where you don't belong. You say that rich people will be able to buy characters that others can't afford, as if this circumvents the leveling system and creates a level 60 character out of the blue. This does not happen, the character still has to be leveled by someone, which takes TIME. Just like someone who levels the character for themselves, it takes TIME. Just like the person who buys the character, they have a job to get that money, which takes TIME. So this person spends a month working at a JOB to get the money for the character that took a month to level. The same amount of time is spent either way.

Until you can understand this SIMPLE concept, please stop posting your sensationalism on this thread, as it does no good whatsoever.

[bleachy]

I don't mind people who sell things online.

It's not like they are going to be affecting me.

[Syndakit]

Until you can understand this SIMPLE concept, please stop posting your sensationalism on this thread, as it does no good whatsoever.

Ummm...good luck. Ive been trying to explain that concept to him many times. Its simply a "change of ownership".

As far as "selling blizzard code". That is complete bull. You are NOT selling code secrets at all. You are selling TIME. And blizzard does NOT own your time. PERIOD.

[the_guse]

All of you seem to be trying to disprove Zann the Defender but have any of you explained to him that there will be no PKing in WOW? that in turn makes all of his arguements moot.

[Zann the Defender]

Fine if you want people to be High-levelnewbs, its ok with me. I know it takes time, and it is not a secret code i am talking about. When you sell a character, what makes a character? BINARY LANGUAGE, ZEROS AND ONES. Any way I understand a new one is not made, I make new chars all the time, I hate PKers, and I am not going to play PvP untill I am ready, I am saying it will ruin the game. Hacks and bots are not the only thing that ruins games. My friend WHO HAS DIABLO 1 let me play online, the hacks and bots were annoying, but he took an hour to get a good item. i told him he could simply buy it, and it ways like 4 bucks.

Any way, do you like hacks? What about hacks to level a char to max level? It might take a month to make a Char level 60, but you failed to mention one thing, when these buyers start playing WoW. There will be some pre made chars for sale, and if you do want to customize a char, you wait a month (this is of course later in the gamer like a year or so, and some people may just have found out about this game). Basically it is a hack/cheat to me. Untill you realize IT WILL RUIN THE GAME, please do not post here any more.

[MegaLing]

Fine if you want people to be High-levelnewbs, its ok with me. I know it takes time, and it is not a secret code i am talking about. When you sell a character, what makes a character? BINARY LANGUAGE, ZEROS AND ONES. Any way I understand a new one is not made, I make new chars all the time, I hate PKers, and I am not going to play PvP untill I am ready, I am saying it will ruin the game. Hacks and bots are not the only thing that ruins games. My friend WHO HAS DIABLO 1 let me play online, the hacks and bots were annoying, but he took an hour to get a good item. i told him he could simply buy it, and it ways like 4 bucks.

Any way, do you like hacks? What about hacks to level a char to max level? It might take a month to make a Char level 60, but you failed to mention one thing, when these buyers start playing WoW. There will be some pre made chars for sale, and if you do want to customize a char, you wait a month (this is of course later in the gamer like a year or so, and some people may just have found out about this game). Basically it is a hack/cheat to me. Untill you realize IT WILL RUIN THE GAME, please do not post here any more.


ROFL, nothing can "ruin" a game for a player. The state of the game is completely up to the player to decide. It is simply a choice as to where, when and how to play, and who to play with.

You are the same type of people who likes to say BGH ruined SC. Please get a clue ~

[Wickedly_Evil]

Zann, on release blizzard isnt going to be selling level 60's for $10,000. It will probably take 6-8 months before level 60's appear. There will only be level 60 characters for sale some reasonable period of time! When people begin selling characters it doesn't immediately translate into a noob gank fest (unless perhaps the character you bought was on a pvp server).

Did you play DAOC? I would bet money you have, or one of your friends have. That game is setup so that there is a reward for ganking new players who have zero chance against you. Totally lame but that's what they decided to do. WoW isn't going to be like that. There will be a pvp server and a non pvp server. On the pvp server you can kill the enemy faction as long as you are in the right spot. On non pvp servers you have to agree to a duel, or kill an enemy npc faction member (like a quest giver, or town merchants).

As far as hacking goes... it's really hard to cheat with a mmo. Diablo was client based. That means it was easy to hack hit points, items, etc. WoW will have all those values server side. Yes Diablo II was supposed to be the same, but some values were still client side and therefore vunerable to cheating. Aside from some remedial cheating (programs like EQ show) I doubt there will be much cheating in WoW. It really isn't feasable in an online mmorpg. EQ, and other games of the sort more or less let you have graphcis, chat boxes and character commands on your side of the client; everything esle is on their side.

[SonicDeathMonk3y]

My friend WHO HAS DIABLO 1 let me play online, the hacks and bots were annoying, but he took an hour to get a good item. i told him he could simply buy it, and it ways like 4 bucks.

If you honestly believe that Diablo 1 was ruined by people selling items on eBay, then DeVries was 100% correct in calling you an idiot. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. As we have said before, Diablo 1 and 2 were both ruined by hacks and bots. People selling the items had nothing to do with it.

I don't know how easy you think it will be to obtain a level 60 character , but it is not going to be so cheap a price that some kid and his friend are going to be able to order one on a whim. The first people to get level 60 characters will likely be able to sell them for hundreds of dollars, and their appearances for sale will be very rare. It is not as if thousands are going to appear online for anyone to buy.

[MegaLing]

This guy reminded me of a guy during W3 beta on warcraftiii.net....that dude's name was Mountain_Man...and well...if you were there then I think you know what Im talking about.

[Semidi]

You never played d1 did you? You dont have to BUY items hackers dropped godly plate of whale like candy.

D2 wasn't ruined by item selling it was ruined by map hackers, tppk, running baal and cows 50 times an hour, and botters.

bgh was sorta fun for awile, but in the long run made sc boring. Did it ruin SC? No, war3 did because I liked that one so much more.

ON topic: will item selling ruin WoW?
No. why? because why would I care if the 12 year old with rich daddy wants to ruin the game. He's wasting tons of cash, and he's not even playing the game in its truest form (:worship: untwinked :worship:)

The only people who are profiting are the people selling the items and all the power to them in there quest to make a profit.

[OneMadOgre]

This guy reminded me of a guy during W3 beta on warcraftiii.net....that dude's name was Mountain_Man...and well...if you were there then I think you know what Im talking about.
I remember Mountain_Man. :)

Zann, your argument runs all over the place. I think what you are looking for is something like this.... "I don't like item selling for real-life money because I want to be distinguished in the game as one of the few players who can achieve some sort of goal in terms of level or item collection" That can be a perfectly fine argument in and of itself. You're better off pitching a consistent argument.

[MegaLing]

I remember Mountain_Man. :)


Haha this might seem like a useless post but I just have to acknowledge this :howdy: :winner:

[bludart]

Zann is real passionate but wrong. Rich people have better things to do than ruin videogames. If you're this enraged about people with money ruining a video game and having advantages you should get out from behind your computer, go outside, and look at the world. Its the way it is, get over it. It also shows a lack of priorities. If you're this passionate about the advantages of rich people go out and do something about it. First step vote bush out of office.

[Zann the Defender]

I am basically saying what OMO said, but I do not want to be known, then people will just message me constantly for help. But I actually like when people earn this stuff. I NEVER SAID BLIZZARD WOULD BE SELLING LEVEL 60S. I SAID WHEN A PLAYER ACTUALLY GETS IN THIS GAME IT COULD BE A MONTH OR MAYBE EVEN A YEAR LATER!!!! By then several 60s will have been made, and sold.

Who here hates hackers? I know I do, I hate when people hack items and levels. Ruins the game for them, and people who hate hackers. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HACKING AND BUYING? Buying actually costs money, but for people who dont have the time to earn level 60, JUST DONT PLAY. If you do not have the time to quest for an item, you dont have the time to play. It ruins the game for me, and other people who hate this sort of stuff, and they players who bought it.

I know I might seem kidish, but this sort of stuff bugs me. I hate hacks and bots, and it could have ruined any game for all I care, I just dont want it in WoW.

[the_guse]

what about those lvl 60's? what if when you reach such a high lvl that there is nothing left to do but PK ppl even though there IS NO PKING IN WOW LIKE I EXPLAINED BEFORE!!!!!!!! <-------.
are you against all lvl 60 chars? are you against someone with a higher lvl char than you that might beat you at something, like killing a certain monster or PVP? are you generally against someone who has better items then you? what would be the differance between someone that spends 24/7 on the game to be the best so that person can hand you your @$$ on a platter vs someone who spends 2 hours a week, buys the best items and hands you your @$$ on a platter?
--im sorry i really dont see how buying items ruins the game, or makes it any differant than it already is.

[Syndakit]

Who here hates hackers? I know I do, I hate when people hack items and levels. Ruins the game for them, and people who hate hackers. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HACKING AND BUYING? Buying actually costs money, but for people who dont have the time to earn level 60, JUST DONT PLAY. If you do not have the time to quest for an item, you dont have the time to play. It ruins the game for me, and other people who hate this sort of stuff, and they players who bought it.

I know I might seem kidish, but this sort of stuff bugs me. I hate hacks and bots, and it could have ruined any game for all I care, I just dont want it in WoW.

Hacking is NO way the same as buying. When you buy something, you are getting something that is legit, actually in the game. Hacking you are creating items that either were not suppose to be there, or items that dont actually exsist. Even if you "hack" to steal someone's account, that is NOT the same either, since the other party does NOT want you to have their account, like they would if they were selling it.

All selling is, as mentioned many times before, is "change of ownership", thats it. Its not hacking, it wont ruin the game, it wont do anything but make some people money, and some lazy people happy.

[Semidi]

To the supporters of the ban item selling for real word cash:
You've stated that you don't like item selling.
Now, how would you fix this, and if there is a way to stop the selling of items on Ebay or seperate web sites like the ones pdgoodstuffii keeps telling me about (go play d2 awile)
Please make your response resonable. I don't want to loose any more respect for you. :creep:

Pking has no base in WoW where you only have to run to get your body for 3 minutes and hearth stone out.

[Dizn]

As others in this post before me have noted someone who waits to buy the highest level character is not going to have the same skill as someone who has leveled a character up themselves. Having the best items might get you by against AI but in PvP just because you have the best items doesn't at all mean you will win the fight. And anyway since the best items are soulbound purchasing the best items will most likely be impossible. In order to get these items you therefore would have to buy a character and you would not know how to play them and thus not pose a threat in pvp against someone who is on their own character and knows how to play the game.

[Zann the Defender]

Well, lets say this. You hack then an item thqat you want. You buy an item. What is the difference. "It is ok if one is bought, but if a new one is created, god forbid, that would ruin the game". No difference, it changes ownership, but what is the difference? It is like paying some one to do your home work, then saying cheating is bad. IT IS THE SAME THING! Wether you hack or buy, the person obviously does not deserve it if they cant get it themselves. If you are lazy, DO NOT PLAY THE GAME. if you have no time to get the items/char DONT PLAY THE GAME.

That being said, lets refresh on the "Change of Ownership" deal. Wether you hack or buy it, the person does not deserve it. Justifying it with the change of ownership does not make it right. It is the same as hacking. DO you not understand? Compare this then:

Person buys item > Person gets item

Person hacks item > person gets item

Person does quest > person levels up > person spends time on quest > person gets item

Which one deserves the item?

[bleachy]

Hacking is in no way at all a change of ownership, because a hacked item never existed to be owned.


Why are you so distressed about eBaying? It happens in all MMOGs, and it will happen in WoW.

I have played my fair share of MMOGs, and not once has a game been ruined by eBaying.



Let's say you save up for a new PC. It takes you a whole year to save up for.

Now, there is a upper-level management person who wants the same PC you do. He saves up for a month and buys it.

Does the management person deserve the PC any less than you do?

[Zann the Defender]

Well, listen. I said do not justify it with this "Change of Ownership" crap. I am sick of this same old thing over and over. If they cannot get it themselves, THEY DO NOT DESERVE IT. People do not deserve these items if they cannot group/solo these quests.

Your computer analogy does not work. Every item has a code, it is not your code to give. It is blizzards! Every thing in this game is made by Binary Language, and codes make items. A series of 1s and 0s make codes. All of these belong to Blizzard. Now for a decent analogy: You buy an apartment. You can paint the walls, put in different Light Bulbs, but it is never really your apartment. You cannot sell it to other people without the permission of the owner of the complex.

The owner of the complex is Blizzard, the apartments are items/characters.

This change of ownership is bull crap. It is like hacking, you want an item you hack it. You want an item you buy it.

Getting an item for a few bucks is just so much different then making that item for yourself, isnt it (sarcasm)? Infact, how about you start support hacking? No difference except for this bull crap on change of ownership. It already existed. Somebody already got it. It becomes the person who buys it. You hack the same item. It becomes the person who hacks. Person still gets the item.

It is not from where or what the item comes from, it is the person getting the item!

[DeVries]

So Zann, if a person does not quest to obtain an item, then they do not deserve it? I guess to you this means that buying things with in-game money is wrong as well, right? I mean, since the person didn't quest for it themselves, they shouldn't be allowed to purchase it with gold, right? Even though they spent a similar amount of time to get the gold as it did the person to get the item, they still don't deserve it? Let's see how far you get in an MMO without ever trading with someone.

Hacking and buying an item are NOT the same at all. Are buying a game and stealing a game the same thing? No, of course not. While we're on the subject of analogies, your apartment one is extremely flawed. If you BUY an apartment, it is YOURS. It does not matter what the complex owner says, because while he may own the REST of the complex, you own YOUR apartment, and can do with it as you please. Now, if you are RENTING an apartment, that is a different matter. You cannot sell it to another person, but as someone states earlier, you CAN sublet (renting your apartment out to someone else while you are away) for more money than the initial rent that you are paying. This has nothing to do with the ebaying issue, but I thought that I should clear things up there.

You call people who purchase items online "lazy". How are they lazy? Because they are purchasing items, that means they have a job. Do YOU have a job? Oh, that's right, you play the game for hours at a time, that's YOUR job. That person who works all day, and doesn't have enough time to quest for that item they want has equal cause to call YOU lazy for not having a job.

This change of ownership is bull crap. It is like hacking, you want an item you hack it. You want an item you buy it.

You want an item, you quest for it. Again, you are using half-truths in an effort to sensationalize something that is not wrong.

the person obviously does not deserve it if they cant get it themselves. If you are lazy, DO NOT PLAY THE GAME. if you have no time to get the items/char DONT PLAY THE GAME.

So, just because someone doesn't have the kind of time you do, they don't deserve to play a game they want to? Seems pretty mean to me. You obviously want to play WoW VERY much, what happened if you suddenly didn't have enough time to play 6 hours a day? Would you up and quit because you no longer "deserve" to play this game? I sincerely doubt you would. To me it seems a lot like you want to force what you think WoW SHOULD be like onto other people, not unlike a certain group of fanatical Germans in the 1930's and 40's. Now, I'm not specifically CALLING you a member of the National German Socialist Worker's Party, but you should maybe watch what you say sometimes, to avoid offending people who want to play the game differently from you.

[Syndakit]

So Zann, if a person does not quest to obtain an item, then they do not deserve it? I guess to you this means that buying things with in-game money is wrong as well, right? I mean, since the person didn't quest for it themselves, they shouldn't be allowed to purchase it with gold, right? Even though they spent a similar amount of time to get the gold as it did the person to get the item, they still don't deserve it? Let's see how far you get in an MMO without ever trading with someone.

:lol: :thumbsup:

I cant believe you think buying items on ebay is as bad as hacking.

[Zann the Defender]

Basically you get gold and silver in the game from quests and such. You earn it, and level up. You can get it for acertain amount of gold. But wait, the ones people buy are not the ones you can buy for gold and silver.

Well, I could make you look pretty stupid too if I took you out of context to. What I meant for the "If you do not have time to play", I mean do not buy items. You do not deserve them if you go to ebay and buy it with the money around. If you do not have the time to quest/saveup (with WoW money) you do not need to play. It is no excuse to buy items.

Why does this change of Ownership matter? Wanna know what else is change of ownership? Stealing. It does not matter. The person that hacks/buys (for real money) still gets the item.

It does not matter where, why, or what the item comes from, it is how it is obtained.

What deserves the item: People who qust, or buy (with WoW money)
What does not deserve the item: Hacks, or buys (real money)

I am talking about renting in this case. If you lend it to another person, they sell it, how do you feel?

And about subleting, you still own it. "Change of ownership" is not involved, You lend it to people while you are away. Not give them it, and you can charge them, but the complex still has control of the apartment.

[Zann the Defender]

:lol: :thumbsup:

I cant believe you think buying items on ebay is as bad as hacking.


Well lets think. You buy an item that was another players for real money.

You hack the item.

Difference: NOTHING besides that changin of owner ship crap.


Why does it matter where, who, or what it came from? Does it matter?

Hack the item: You get it for free
Buy item: You get it for a few bucks.

You know what, why dont you start supporting hacking because it gets you more items for free?

[DeVries]

What does not deserve the item: Hacks, or buys (real money)
.

So, I go out and quest for a Shiny Sword of Coolness. I decide I don't need it anymore, and I want to sell it on Ebay to make some money back from playing the past month? Excuse me, but who the hell are you to tell me what I can and cannot do with my own item? Who are you to say who does and does not deserve items? Last I checked, Zann the Defender is not a Blizzard employee. It is my item, and I say that JoeBill65 at Ebay DOES deserve my Shiny Sword of Coolness, since he's willing to pay $14.95 for it. I did not steal this item from Blizzard or another player, JoeBill65 is purchasing it from me of mine, and his, own volition. I do not see how this is at all like hacking or cheating. I spent four hours questing for it, JoeBill65 spent four hours mowing a lawn for it. We both spent four hours for our respective rewards, and now we are trading. So, where do you come in?

[Zann the Defender]

I did not steal this item from Blizzard or another player, JoeBill65 is purchasing it from me of mine, and his, own volition. I do not see how this is at all like hacking or cheating. I spent four hours questing for it, JoeBill65

Ah but you are stealing it. You must have permission from Blizzard, since it is their code for the item you sell. "But I am not selling the code" some people might say, but this item is broke down into 1s and 0s as I said earlier. Point is you are profiting off another persons creation that has been already copy righted. It is stealing part of the game and selling it.

As for the "not seeing how it is similar to hacking part" For him it is like hacking. You hack an item and you get it, you buy an item and you get it.

Who are you to say the person does not deserve to hack the item?

The thing is, people hack for free, or people buy it. People buying the item is no different.

For the people who buy it, it is no different besides paying every time you hack.

[WiglyWorm]

Zann, dude. Chill.

I think i remeber you saying in another thread you had never played an MMORPG before/

Trust me, item/account sellers change bascailly 0 in the game.


Number one of the item is avialiable to be sold on e-bay it's obviously tradeable from PC to PC, thusly for someone to sell it, they have to farm it. vis-a-vis, no impact on the in game economy. For an account to be sellable someone had to raise it from level 1 to whatever level you buy it at. In other words there's not just "suddenly" a level 60, it had to get there just like any other level 60.


I'm a level 61 enchanter in EQ, I am untwinked, not e-bayed. I don't have the best equipment (in fact alot of it friggin blows) But yet.. i am (not to toot my own horn) Godly (if rusty). I will pwn many a level 65 in PvP, will show up many MANY a level 65 enchanter and make them wish they never heard of e-bay, if I don't choose to PvP i will not suffer from those who choose to buy/sell. The problem (if it exists aside from the occasional wiped group or trouble of giving someone directions along well known path A from well known place b to well known place c) is non-existant... yeah it sucks to run in to but it's happened to me.. 3-4 times tops on EQ, and i've been playing for a LONG time.

Hardly something to ruin my day, week, hour, or minute over, let alone my entire gameplay experience.

[Zann the Defender]

I have never played an MMO for myself, my friends let me every now and then. I know the people who buy these are minimal, but I hate it when people get it when they dont deserve it.

Also check your private messages dude

[Syndakit]

Well lets think. You buy an item that was another players for real money.

You hack the item.

Difference: NOTHING besides that changin of owner ship crap.


Why does it matter where, who, or what it came from? Does it matter?

Hack the item: You get it for free
Buy item: You get it for a few bucks.

You know what, why dont you start supporting hacking because it gets you more items for free?

How hard is it to understand, when you BUY an item from someone, THEY are losing it, and you gain it. WHen you hack an item, NO ONE loses it, and now there IS an extra item not intended to be in the game

Buy an item: Still only 1 of that item, no new item created
Hack an item: Now 2 of that item, 1 not intended to be in the game

Obviously some people have more trouble figuring that out for themselves....

[Incite_Riots]

D2 isn't a MMORPG. And Ragnarok sucked.

Successful MMORPG's, like Everquest and DAOC, haven't been hurt by selling/buying of items. Everquest sucks because its a crappy game, but people buying/selling items did not ruin the game (or even harm it too much).


Yes, they have been hurt. A lot. I doubt you're an experienced player by your comments, so I'm suspecting you're not qualified to comment.

And for the record, just because you don't enjoy a game does not mean it's crap. I don't enjoy Bridge, but there are plenty of people that do.

[Taelnayael]

Yes, they have been hurt. A lot. I doubt you're an experienced player by your comments, so I'm suspecting you're not qualified to comment.

And for the record, just because you don't enjoy a game does not mean it's crap. I don't enjoy Bridge, but there are plenty of people that do.

Everquest is a crap system. Forcing you to hang out with 60+ people you don't really know or talk to or even want to talk to on a daily basis does nothing but foster greed and pettiness. This is exemplified in high end guilds.

Buying and selling at the low end cant possibly hurt the economy when people at those levels fly through it so fast. You cannot buy and sell the really really good stuff for a given expansion. The problem with buying and selling of items/chars in Everquest was giving idiots access to a high level well geared character. But thats not really as big a problem now adays because well ... you can get to the max level in a little under a month if you know where to go. I digress.

Zann the Defender's main argument is if I understand correctly that people should not be given access to gear unless they "earn it" I am going to go out on a limb and make the assumption that someone only earns it if they are the one clicking on the mob's corpse to loot the item, or they recieved it personally from a quest mob/giver. If I am wrong then please correct me.

There are two things.

One. Soulbound, namely Bind on Aquire items will not allow someone who is not physically (in a conceptual sense) there get any of the really good stuff. It is just impossible. There is loot code so that if you aren't close enough to the mob when it dies, you cannot loot it. Now technically you could follow friends through a high level dungeon and pick up the gear they dont want and I guess you have earned it, either by proxy in having friends who are kind enough to let you loot what they actually earned. Or being well connected enough to get someone to hold their hand through a high level zone.

Two. There is a healthy market of Bind on Equip items in the game. Technically one could buy all the gear and have almost the best gear in game. But did they earn it? Sure if they got stuff they couldn't use that was equivalent level and sold to get stuff they could wear. But what about the guy who spends 30 hours a week killing level 5 mobs to get tradeskill stuff to sell to the higher level people who don't find such activity fun. By the above definition this person didnt "earn" their gear.

Now here is the argument. Someone who works for a living, or has a family that they cant spend 30 hours a week devoted to a game would use their real life commodity to attain that which they desire. They are placing a monetary value upon their personal time and how they spend it and manage to use that value to equate fun in a game with some dollar amount. Neither the person who spends 30 hours a week killing level 5 mobs for tradeskill parts, nor the person who buys the cash or items truly earned it by your definition.

So heres the question. Whats the difference? Is the gear that the farmer buys any less deserved than the person who buys with their own real life cash? Or are you just mad because you don't have the money to throw around and instead of accepting it would rather cry foul and make sure no one else can either?

[Pogo]

Have to side with the purist camp here...

The best thing about an MMO imo is humble beginnings and coming up with people you've met and going on adventures together, items become part of remembering these experiences and making good friends. It enhances immersion and I just plain think everyone gets more out of the game that way.

Since I'm not a roleplayer and like getting good gear I support having lots of tradeable gear in the economy. However if there becomes a system of farming by a for-profit enterprise in 3rd world countries with no legal accountability to permacamp all the best items and money that is disruption of my game experience. Reselling needs to be crushed with heavy handed corporate power in the country its happening, on their terms, or they will eventually control the economy. I just watched it happen to EQ.

The people that run EQ used to agree with this, last year they departed from that philosophy and the online resellers are running amok I hate it. I'm 100% certain they will be looking for ways to exploit WoW as they have with all the big releases.

It will negatively change the way you play the game.

[Incite_Riots]

Everquest is a crap system. Forcing you to hang out with 60+ people you don't really know or talk to or even want to talk to on a daily basis does nothing but foster greed and pettiness. This is exemplified in high end guilds.

Really? YOU may not enjoy it. I do. Most in my guild do ... if they don't, then they don't join us on raids and we certainly don't tell them they have to. I also enjoy soloing, 1 group encounters, LDoN adventures, etc. EQ provides plenty of entertainment for those that enjoy it. Just because you do not like it does not mean it's crap ... all it means is that you don't like it. Nothing more. So get off the "I don't like it so it must be crap" thing and you'll go further in life, that I gaurantee you.

Buying and selling at the low end cant possibly hurt the economy when people at those levels fly through it so fast. You cannot buy and sell the really really good stuff for a given expansion.

[ snip ]

If I am wrong then please correct me.

Kinda.

Low levels, a person starting from scratch can't level up a toon to 60 in 4 days without help from a higher level or by buying a metric arseload of platinum and twinking themselves out.

Being PL'd: Not great, but normally involves a knowledge transfer if the PL'ee is new to the game.

Twinkage without prior game knowledge: Can really make for bad experiences for other players. I'm sure you will encounter this at some point, unless Blizzard do the right thing and stop stuff being sold for RL money.

Now here is the argument. Someone who works for a living, or has a family that they cant spend 30 hours a week devoted to a game would use their real life commodity to attain that which they desire.

Then their game experience reflects the time that they have available to put into it. It's no one else's problem if they can't play as much as they want, and, really, they should be happy that they have a full enough life that they don't have enough time to waste in a game.

Neither the person who spends 30 hours a week killing level 5 mobs for tradeskill parts, nor the person who buys the cash or items truly earned it by your definition.

Rubbish.

So heres the question. Whats the difference? Is the gear that the farmer buys any less deserved than the person who buys with their own real life cash? Or are you just mad because you don't have the money to throw around and instead of accepting it would rather cry foul and make sure no one else can either?

Why don't you accept that the game environment should be unimpacted by the real life economy?

The argument about "earning" and "who gets what items" is a red herring and not one I have not been bothered with overall.

The problem occours because you get jerk-offs who play the game for real life profit ... not because who-ever decided to buy an item they didn't earn within the game environment. The people who will sit there with 4, 6, 8, how ever many accounts and ruin other people's play experience because they are trying to build up their next consignment of gold/PP to sell for $US. You will end up being screwed over by these people at some point ... unless you are one of course; but even then you're likely to have problems from your competition.

[Taelnayael]

Twinkage without prior game knowledge: Can really make for bad experiences for other players. I'm sure you will encounter this at some point, unless Blizzard do the right thing and stop stuff being sold for RL money.


Only way this can impact people is if they buy characters. I highly doubt you are going to look at someone in WoW and say "Hmm sorry you aren't wearing blahitemofuberness, I won't group with you" When will people understand that the best gear in game is done by following instructions printed out on the screen. There is no in depth knowledge needed. There is no understanding of game mechanics that has to be known before you can get an item. I grouped with a druid last night. This druid would only go into panther form and melee. Finished the fight multiple times with full mana. This person had very nice quest gear. So are we automatically going to assume that they had to have bought all their gear? No. Just like automatically assuming that people who wish to buy items are terrible at playing the game is flawed.


Then their game experience reflects the time that they have available to put into it. It's no one else's problem if they can't play as much as they want, and, really, they should be happy that they have a full enough life that they don't have enough time to waste in a game.


I am still wondering how someone buying items makes you or any other player have less fun. If it is the seller that will actually be making your life less fun then I can address that below, but by someone buying items they haven't impacted you directly in any way. Indirectly yes, as a result that your play may be impacted by someone trying to farm gear, or possibly you end up grouping with them and they are a terrible player. Thing is I have played with plenty of people in excellent gear in WoW and they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.


The problem occours because you get jerk-offs who play the game for real life profit ... not because who-ever decided to buy an item they didn't earn within the game environment. The people who will sit there with 4, 6, 8, how ever many accounts and ruin other people's play experience because they are trying to build up their next consignment of gold/PP to sell for $US.

I am still unsure as to how someone is going to "ruin" the game experience for someone else. As I have said several times. In WoW you cannot get the best level appropriate items and sell them to someone else. Furthermore, the ones that do drop are rather a rarity, and drop off of mobs that are random. People cannot monopolize BoT tower mobs that always pop every 8 hours with their own botsquad. I didn't really expand I guess on itemization in WoW. You can kill all the mobs in an area and you may or may not get an item. You can kill five different types of mobs in different areas of the world and as long as they are of the same level range, odds are eventually you will get the same item from them, but in entirely different areas of the world, off entirely different mobs.

It makes it rather impossible for someone to try and make a repeatable attempt at getting the item they want. The largest scare that you will run into is the possibility that someone will find a set of mobs or area that provide a steady cash flow, and if those same mobs are tied to a quest, it will make it tough for someone to accomplish that quest.


You will end up being screwed over by these people at some point ... unless you are one of course; but even then you're likely to have problems from your competition.


And no I highly doubt I will end up being screwed because I neither buy, nor sell items, and wouldn't want any of them anyways.


Why don't you accept that the game environment should be unimpacted by the real life economy?


Why don't you understand that the game environment is impacted by the real life economy everytime you or anyone else logs into the game. Take a college student for example. Typically extreme amounts of free time. Now take a businessman, generally far less freetime to spend sitting in front of a computer. Both wish to enjoy the game. One just has more time to invest, which equates to greater status within the game world. Are you saying that peoples real lives and the monetary situations required by both have no impact upon what goes on in the game or the strength of a character?

I am not trying to say that I condone the buying and selling of items. But folks are going to have to start supplying better arguments as to why there shouldn't be buying and selling of items in game than:
BECAUSE IT SUXXORS - personal reason because you dont want to buy
Lessens immersion - personal again - for who? Obviously someone who buys item isnt interested in immersion, why is it your place to tell them how to play?
They won't have any skill because they didn't earn it - personal again, you feel that you wasted the time to get the item so should they - any idiot can go from point a to point b or get lucky and get in a group killing a mob, this is by far the worst argument of them all
The sellers will ruin the economy - slightly more altruistic - maybe with gold, but by and large they will be doing it in instances and won't affect you, I mean its not a hack in that the money coming into the economy is still coming into the economy, just in the hands of a different player than who earned it

[OneMadOgre]

Not a bad discussion so far. Let's stay above the personal attacks, I know it can get heated, but so far I am really enjoying the give and take.

I really doubt that the game will allow much farming good equipment save for gold. The mechanics of the game are all arrayed against this. I only really see two things changing hands. (a) Gold, (b) Characters.

Now being one of those fellows who is paid a fair ammount by my employeer, I'm not sure I have an issue bringing some real world money to bear on a piece of equipment or cash. Not that I can or want to be dropping $300 on a slot spin mind you, but I'm not sure I wouldn't be tempted by getting 100g for $2 or so. My skills are never going to be what a person who has the whole summer off will have. I am too old and slow on the soccer field and in computer games. (Just ask Shady Abe for when he gets punished having to group with me. :) )

I can definitely understand why people who could not afford to spend real life cash on virtual goods would feel cheated of content. Similiar to how I feel having to work every day instead of playing this awesome, awesome game. :D (And no, don't ask. Nobody is getting my key while I am at work. and yes someone did PM me about that. :scratch: )

[bleachy]

Let's say Timmy Powergamer plays the game 10 hours a day and gets the "Ginormous Hammer of Bone-Breaking," but Timmy is a Mage, and isn't proficient with Two-Handed Hammers.

So Timmy puts the Hammer up on ebay for $30.


Now, Jimmy Employee works 9 hours a day, and comes home to his wife and kids. Jimmy is tired after working for so long, and can only play for an hour.

He sees the hammer on eBay and buys it.

Now Jimmy is happy because he can have more fun with his hammer, and Timmy is happy because he made $30.


Jimmy and Timmy both pay the same monthly fee, does either deserve the hammer more than the other?



Also, when buying items/characters, you aren't paying for the item itself, you are paying for the time invested to get the item/character.

[SonicDeathMonk3y]

Ah but you are stealing it. You must have permission from Blizzard, since it is their code for the item you sell.

Are you suggesting that Blizzard actually cares who controls specific items? To me, it would seem that Blizzard could not care less who has the item, wether it be JoeBill65, or DeVries. Why would it make any difference to them if he wants to be paid a few dollars for the time he spent obtaining the item?

And no, buying is nothing at all like hacking, because, as you yourself have said, hacking is free. By this very nature, no one will just hack to get a single item. They will hack many many items, until they have enough for themselves, and everyone around them. Having a market flooded with fake items is why hacking hurts a game. When people buy an item, nothing new is being created. It is just moving from one character to another. Two characters lose something, but gain something else of equal value. This is the very nature of trade, and it makes no difference if it is real money or in-game.

[WiglyWorm]

And no, buying is nothing at all like hacking, because, as you yourself have said, hacking is free. By this very nature, no one will just hack to get a single item. They will hack many many items, until they have enough for themselves, and everyone around them. Having a market flooded with fake items is why hacking hurts a game. When people buy an item, nothing new is being created. It is just moving from one character to another. Two characters lose something, but gain something else of equal value. This is the very nature of trade, and it makes no difference if it is real money or in-game.


Exactley. Part of what ruined Diablo was the lag-item-dupe-cheat, suddenly everyone had Godly PLate of the Whale as soon as they could equip it.. it made the game kinda pointless.


And yes, at least once in the game, you will run into someone who makes a living off of farming gold/mobs/whatever. God how I wish i could do that... anyway, you will have your minute ruined by them trying to train you grief you and whatever else it takes to get you away from whatever they are trying to farm. Despite all that's stated above there will be sellable dropped items, and it wouldn't at all surprise me to see it farmed by a company. And of course gold as well. I'm sure there will be a "hotspot" to get gold and this company will be there also..
But really, it's no big deal to me, if i'm playing to have fun i can always go somewhere else and get some XP and loot.

The part i dislike about the whole buying/selling gear equation is when you meet people who have no knowledge of the game because they bought a level 60 character with all the best gear. Being a newb is one thing, we all are, being a newb at the very top of the learning curve is another. They'll never learn their character as well as someone who played from level one, as has been stated previously. They will also make a ton of newbish mistakes wich are excusable, and even humourus at low level, but at the top of the game it gets annoying real quick, because you go into a group expecting everyone to know their ****, ya know? And when you find out newbert_01 is trying to play his wizard like a warrior, it gets real old, real fast. And if you're in an instanced quest or what not.. well there's no escaping it.

[Syndakit]

The part i dislike about the whole buying/selling gear equation is when you meet people who have no knowledge of the game because they bought a level 60 character with all the best gear. Being a newb is one thing, we all are, being a newb at the very top of the learning curve is another. They'll never learn their character as well as someone who played from level one, as has been stated previously. .

I doubt most people who buy chars, will ONLY buy chars. OBVIOUSLY they will play the game for a while first, to make sure they LIKE the game before they go spending money on a level 60....so that really shouldnt even be a worry in the first place.

[WiglyWorm]

cept they don't buy a character class they already have, duh! :)

there's a difference between knowing a characters role in the party.. i'm not even in beta and i can tell you that:

warriors tank
Druids buff/heal/and add some damage
rogues are pure DPS, avoiding getting hit
wizzies nuke
priests heal
paladins tank/assist the tank, giving off the occasional spot heal or damage spell

Ok great i know that much.. but i have no clue how to do those things efficiently unless i spend alot of time experimenting with particular spells in particular situations. Level 60 is not the time to be doing this, level 60 is the time to take everything you've learned and go WOOP SOME ARSE!

[Syndakit]

True, but I doubt it will really be that hard to know what to do with your level 60 character after a few days....

If you were given a level 60 character, would you take it? Or would you go, no I dont want it cause I wouldnt know how to use it?

[Zann the Defender]

Well, friends have a big effect on if you get a game or not. I played my first mmo at a friends house. I did not get an account, so I played on his account. I liked the game, but I could not find it.

Point here is, people dont have to get into the game before they buy a level 60 char.

With that said, I understand what your getting at, but honestly, how many people just by one item/char? Not many.

Let's say Timmy Powergamer plays the game 10 hours a day and gets the "Ginormous Hammer of Bone-Breaking," but Timmy is a Mage, and isn't proficient with Two-Handed Hammers.

So Timmy puts the Hammer up on ebay for $30.

If there is two of that item, Great for it. Man so much of a difference huh?

Hacking is horrid, and buying is horrid. People hack multipule items, and people usually buy multipule items.

How hard is it to understand that.

And as wiglyworm said, There could be Level 60 newbs. I hate when people are the higher levels because they have money. The game becomes based on those who have the money to get good items. It will not take a few days to get better. They will not know where to get the lower level monsters, let alone their level monsters. It only causes more confusion for the person with the 60.


Now, Jimmy Employee works 9 hours a day, and comes home to his wife and kids. Jimmy is tired after working for so long, and can only play for an hour.

He sees the hammer on eBay and buys it.

Now Jimmy is happy because he can have more fun with his hammer, and Timmy is happy because he made $30.


Jimmy and Timmy both pay the same monthly fee, does either deserve the hammer more than the other?



Also, when buying items/characters, you aren't paying for the item itself, you are paying for the time invested to get the item/character.

Well, not getting a chance to play is no excuse to buy items. If he only gets an hour to play a day, he is either going to stop playing, or play only on their breaks. If he could not even play much, what is the use of having better equipment?

[Wickedly_Evil]

Reselling needs to be crushed ... or they will eventually control the economy. I just watched it happen to EQ.

The people that run EQ used to agree with this, last year they departed from that philosophy and the online resellers are running amok I hate it. I'm 100% certain they will be looking for ways to exploit WoW as they have with all the big releases.

It will negatively change the way you play the game.

You aren't familiar with the way loot works in WoW are you? There are instanced dungeons. That means an ininite number of people can go to the cave of Uber loot to slay the red dragon. Moreover, each group can go at their own pace and have no inteferance. No one will be able to sell such loot, as the items are bind on acquire. This alone will ruin the item re-sale buisness. Why buy their stuff when you can go get your own? Meet together with your friends and storm the dungeon. It's not like EQ where you camp a spawn for 10 hours hoping for that drop.

There is the possibility that some bind on acquire items will be resold, but don't expect it to be the same market that EQ has. Blizzard has stated that sometmies the best item will be player made, sometimes bind on acquire, and sometimes bind on equip. I think it is a well thought out system personally.

[Wickedly_Evil]

I confess.... I am a videogame junkie. Perhaps I can offer some insight to the conversation here. I used to be a guild's number one character of the class I played (enchanter). I held that position for about two years without contest. That being said I got the pick of the litter on gear I wanted. People always wanted me to have more mana and more hit points. Later it changed but for a long time my survival meant the guild's survival. As you might imagine, my character had some really nice loot that probably made some people cry.

I bought an item once for an alternate character of mine. Did it ruin anyone's gameplay? Not really. I mean I knew where the item dropped, and I had even seen it drop a few times. The drop rate however had been horrificly nerfed so there was little chance I could get one to drop and then win the roll on it.

That being said people in mmo's like to walk around in their uberness. (I would say this differently but then some of the youngsters would be scratching their heads and the swear filter would be unhappy with my synonym for rooster.) They feel threatened when someone else has the same, almost as good or perhaps better item as them. As a matter of fact, they feel cheated to learn someone paid 200$ for an item instead of camping it for a ridiculous amount of time like they did. In a sense the working man did camp that item, but he camped it from a desk at work. The leet hardcore player did not see this mad pen-pushing action and therefore feels that his gameplay is hindered. Personally I think it works about the same in the end.


On the other hand I do believe item selling indirectly influneced me to quit Everquest. Part of how SoE set up the game benefits people in timezones with about 8 hours difference than the US. Translation..... at 4 am many of the boss monsters with really good loot spawn. Foreign players get a much better shot at killing that boss. Also mind that when that boss is killed he usually has a daily or weekly timer. kill it at 5:03 and it will probably spawn again next time right around then. This translates to mob hogging over and over and over again.

I can't imagine level 70 characters..... level 65 felt broken in how powerful you were. Many encounters that were supposed to be 25+ raids became 1 uber group (ranger, warrior, 2 enchanters, 2 clerics). As someone mentioned 1 group can farm loot intended for 30 people. It made a very high demand and a very low and very controlled supply. This of course led people to sell items on ebay.

The nature of most of the uber players of EQ that I saw was to be greedy. Personally I'm much more of kill the dragon once get my loot then let someone else have a shot. If no one else can kill him then I might try again. Most of the people that you run into however have the following mindset. Kill the dragon five times and have all the loot I ever need! I can keep some, trade some, and the rest I'll sell on ebay to get a supercomputer muahahahah!

[Pogo]

You aren't familiar with the way loot works in WoW are you?

No I'm not and thank you. I've spent the last week reading into the official site and boards before I posted anywhere, I knew that there are instanced dungeons, and bind on acquire items, but not that all or most are... the beta website doesn't really come right out and say that. It's good news.

I've been interested in WoW for a couple years but I didn't even apply to beta because testing ruined SWG for me, well SOE ruined it but you know what I mean.

[OneMadOgre]

You have my sympathy for wading through the official site forums. :)

[Zann the Defender]

Mine too. I still think it is a bad idea, but it wont stop. But if I can prevent some people from buying items, I will do all I can.

My opinion will not change!

[Incite_Riots]

blah blah blah

Jimmy and Timmy both pay the same monthly fee, does either deserve the hammer more than the other?


Yes. Who ever gained the hammer in the game legitimately deserves it. Paying the fee to play gives you the right to play, it does not give you the right to achieve everything in the game ... just the opportunity to do so if you invest the time and effort.


Also, when buying items/characters, you aren't paying for the item itself, you are paying for the time invested to get the item/character.

And there types a true EBay seller.