Moore pwned by 17 year old

[Bartleby]

Moore debunked by a sharp 17 y/o girl in this article (http://www.larryelder.com/911/debunking911.html).

On a personal note I love the fact (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-et-moore11jun11,1,20992.story?coll=la-headlines-frontpage) (req. free subscription) that Moore has hired Chris Lehane (a widely despised, even by the Dems, Democrat spin doctor) to setup a "war room" to help defend him against criticism of his most recent propoganda piece; vowing that his lawyers would attack "without mercy" his critics. So much for free speech eh Mikey :P

I guess he feels the first ammendment only applies to his bs. Anyway it's a great example of how far Moore is willing to go to discredit, ruin, and attack anyone critical or, God forbid, skeptical of his work.

I'd like to see him go after the high-school girl.

[Adamwsat]

The choice I wanted was Fork In toaster, but between them is close enough. :jig: :bonk: :king:

Edit: Also note that I hate him mostly due to how he ripped the name off from Farenheit 451, though alot of his information is blown way out of proportion..

[GreenPenInc]

If you're using Firefox, there is an extension called BugMeNot which allows you to read stories from sites such as the LA Times without registering.

[Havard]

Michael Moore is a n00b

[Bartleby]

Thanks for the tip Green, I'm going to download that right now.

[Bartleby]

Just a quick question:
Is the article's length too intimidating?, and if so would you like a brief synopsis?

[Tyran_Harasvelg]

That would help us folk that have been tagged with ADD. :p

[Booms]

Heh, I started it but got a little bored.

A synopsis would be nice.

[SpanGi]

This is just brilliant!! :lol: I really hope this gets out in the medias somehow.. :D

[Drakeon]

hahaha I love it, I'm reading it right now :D

That was freaking great, really really awesome read :winner:

[bleachy]

Moore may twist facts and quotes, but he is in no way an idiot. He is very good at inspiring people and making them believe things.


Also, you're poll is extremely biased, which is why I won't porticipate in it.

[ScytheNoire]

i have this dream match up for a PPV fight.

both men have had good cable TV show series.

in the Red corner, the creator of the Awful Truth tv series, made famous by his controversal "documentries", Michael Moore.
in his corner, Crackers the Corporate Crime Fighting Chicken.

in the Blue corner, the co-creator of the series Bullsh1t!, made famous by debunking BS and revealing secrets of magic, Penn Jillette.
in his corner, the ever silent but still more informative than Moore, Teller.

i only mention this because, if you've never watched Bullsh1t, it's a great show. they debunk a lot of BS stuff out there and give proof, instead of just saying so.
even better though is that Penn has publically stated his dislike for Michael Moore.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346369/board/nest/9178966

either case, i'd still like to know why Showtimes website won't let me view it because i'm outside the United States. what? they too good for people outside the US? buncha American-Elitist-Snobs! screw them, i'll just download the shows for free!

[Havard]

Moore may twist facts and quotes, but he is in no way an idiot. He is very good at inspiring people and making them believe things.


Also, you're poll is extremely biased, which is why I won't porticipate in it.

Why-ever would you think the poll is biased? :lol:

[Joro]

I must agree that bullsh1t.. is one of the best shows ever.. They dont show it here in sweden doh... but its still easy to get a hand of ....

[Galron Kincaid]

That girlie is the classical venom-tongued witch, with a LOT of time on her hands. I'm growing so tired of polemics and critics.

[SaroDarksbane]

That girlie is the classical venom-tongued witch, with a LOT of time on her hands. I'm growing so tired of polemics and critics.
Really? I think that's the sexiest thing a girl has ever written.

I wonder if she'd have my children . . . =P

[SpanGi]

Really? I think that's the sexiest thing a girl has ever written.

I wonder if she'd have my children . . . =P
rofl :lol: you can write her a mail you know? :thumbsup:

[SpiritWalker]

Haha, American politics always makes me laugh, every party, wether it's the democrates or the republicans, always tries to manipulate the people into thinking they're right and the other party's the fool. This chick may have discovered that that whole movie is nothing but dumb 'socialist propaganda' from a 'quasi communist' (using those terms also works manipulative imo and shows her whole piece is biased towards republicans), but the republican party does all the same with the elections etc. etc. And the statement of century is again of use here; people.. are idiots.

[xXxDraGoNxXx1123]

Very well written and thought out article, especially for a 17 year old. Though none of the information is new, it was an interesting re-read none the less.

[Bartleby]

Do me a favor and read this closely...

Moore may twist facts and quotesPlus
He is very good at inspiring people and making them believe things.Equals why I hate Moore. If he didn't try to pass off his work as an actual documentary, I would care less. He's as slimey as a televangelist.

but he is in no way an idiot.That's your opinion, although you're probably right judging by the two quotes above, "con artist" would be a more accurate description.

Also, you're poll is extremely biased, which is why I won't porticipate in it.I am glad you were able to pick up on that part, but you seemed to have missed something. I apologize if I offended your tender sympathies, but you see the poll is a bit of a spoof, a play on polls if you will; and while I'm flattered that you took everything I wrote seriously, in reality the poll is just my opinion of Moore presented as a whimsical diversion for the entertainment of those who would "porticipate". :thumbsup:

[AgeOfAbnegation]

Buhahahahah what a delicious post! hhehe. I chose "fork and toaster". It reminds me of Burns on the simpsons when he asked about homer simpson - Smithers answered "yes sir, hes one of your fork and spoon operators from sector 7G". heh.. Well done bartleby.

However, it was this that amused me the most:

Also, you're poll is extremely biased, which is why I won't porticipate in it.

THe irony is killing me :uhhuh:.

[Bartleby]

That girlie is the classical venom-tongued witch, with a LOT of time on her hands. I'm growing so tired of polemics and critics.
Good one! Somebody takes the time to bring a contrary point of view, based in credible fact and sourced for those wishing to check; and you eloquently respond with "she's a b!tch".

Kudos to you my friend, that's the kind of hard hitting, fact based argument that will really throw people for a loop.

I'm going to write this one down right now...
Let's see:
When faced with an opposing argument that is cogent and grounded in facts, and I have nothing with which to counter it, I should start calling the author names hoping that by changing the subject while simultaneously defaming the individual's character, the audience will assume their argument is invalid. Oh yes and then finish with a condescending comment about how all this debating bores me.

[Bartleby]

Scythe, thanks for the heads up on Bullsh1t. I saw their website and the show looks really interesting. I'm going to go see if it's available in my area. :thumbsup:

[ScytheNoire]

you can find the series downloadable online (if you believe in PC hippism), and i think the first season may be out on DVD.

it's really a great series, and if you straight forward, logical, often scientific, view point, then you'll love the show. just be warned there is lots of swearing (Penn has a potty mouth) and sometimes nudity.

[Bartleby]

Okay here's the "brief" synopsis. I tried my best, but there's a lot of information in there. I suggest you read her points in their entirety.

1) Opening statements by Moore claiming that “numerous investigations said that Gore won Florida” shown false via credible sources.
2) Debunks the notion all the major tv stations changed their call that Gore won Florida to Bush won Florida after hearing it announced on Fox News. It turns that out all the new stations said Gore took Florida about an hour before the polls closed in several conservative Florida counties.
3) It is ascertained by Democratic Strategist that Bush lost approx 8,000 votes due to voters hearing of Gore’s win and thinking that there would be no point in their voting after the election had been called.
4) It is also shown that Fox did not call Florida for Bush until 2 in the morning, long after polls had been closed, so there is no way the news could have hurt Gore (which is what Moore was insinuating in point 2 and when he said Bush’s cousin was working at Fox that nigh)
5) Pointed out that labeling all Saudis and the House of Saud as terrorists is akin to calling all black people members of the Black Panthers or all afghan muslims as members of the Taliban.
6) Counters Moore’s claim that Bush “wakes up in the morning, thinking about what’s best for the Saudis, rather than thinking about what’s best for you” with why would the Saudis want the US to secure oil fields that would take billions out of their pockets, or liberate the Shiites whom they (being Sunnis) hate?
7) Bush’s connection to Bin Laden debunked. The Bin Laden family (of whom I personally know a member, he’s a Democrat who will be running for office in Arizona) who had disowned Osama has a large stake in the Carlyle investment group, as does GWB. He neglects to mention that so does George Soros, Bill Clinton, Madeline Albright, etc. or that Jimmy Carter met with 10 of Osama’s brothers in 2000 on a fund raising trip.
8) Debunked that the Bush’s let the Bin Ladens leave the US on Sept 11. Turns out they left days later when the planes were again allowed to fly, and it was admittedly at the sole discretion of Richard Clark who recently released a book denouncing the Bush admninistration.
9) Took Moore to task regarding the classroom reading, including the teacher of that class who thanked him for helping them stay calm through that very difficult day. She said she voted for Gore, but that day she would have voted for Bush.
10) Debunks the “Bin Laden Wants to Attack America Memo”. That’s been known since 1993 and the memo had no new information, did not have any mention of possible time or place, and that 14 of the 17 lines were historical.
11) Debunked the pipeline to Afghanistan deal. Turns out that Governor’s have nothing to foreign affairs and that the Taliban were dealing Unocal because of Bill Clinton, our then president. Moore also fails to mention that in 2002 Unocal comes out with a press release saying they have no interest in projects in Afghanistan.
12) Rips into Moore for depicting Saddam in the same manner that Leni Riefenstahl depicted Hitler in order to gain support for the **** party/agenda.
13) Debunks Moore’s claim that Saddam Hussein “never took the life of any American or threatened any American,” except for all the people killed during and after the Gulf War and his attempted assassination of Bush.
14) Rails Moore for portrayal of our troops as either hicks or vehemently opposed to the war.
15) Mentions that the building that was violently destroyed just happened to be Saddam’s Iraqi Ministry of Defense building.
16) Comments on the Patriot Act, although I have to admit all I know of the act is what I’ve heard, which may be why I don’t like it. I’m going to do my own research now. It is also pointed out that there is an 800 number for complaints against the Patriot Act. Actually it’s an 877 number (but still toll free) and the number is 1-877-858-9040.
17) Debunks Moore’s claim that only 1 Congressmen has a son in the military. Turns out there’s 8, one of which is a Democrat and that there are 36 vets in congress, and that Ashcroft’s son had been in the military.

There’s more than what I detailed but that gives you and idea. Her points are sourced by number with a corresponding link.

[Eiger]

I thought her ending was most appropriate in regard to the Bush Administration:

"Michael Moore ends Farenheit 9/11 with a quote from George Orwell. I, myself, have a quote from George Orwell that Moore just may have overlooked.
“If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, he that is not with me is against me.”25 I couldn’t have said it better myself".

[SpiritWalker]

I see you failed to reply to my post, Bartleby, maybe you haven't noticed or is there some other reason that you don't reply to my comparison of Democrates and Republicans using the same means to get what they want, making the critics this 'women' has on Moore nothing more than a piece of hypocracy. Oh the irony and she calls Moore a hypocrit. :rolleyes:

[Bartleby]

Sorry Spirit, I didn't respond because I didn't see anything that necessitated a response. It's not a dig, as I know english is not your primary language and yet I've seen you post very intelligent responses, but that one you just referred to didn't really present anything to be argued. Again, this in not meant to insult, only to point out that I didn't see anything posted to which you might expect a response.

[SpiritWalker]

No offense taken :)

But still you got to admit that is kind of, well, hypocracy that she calls Moore a manipulator, while calling him socialist scum, well she didn't actually say it, but you could clearly notice she doesn't like the 'evil' socialist democrates, while that also is kind of strange since in a democracy you can also have 'right' sided parties, while the republicans do exactly the same, manipulate the press, tv commercials etc. (sorry for the long sentence) I'm sorry, but her arguments are shallow to hollow, because the ones she kind of defends, republicans, Bush in particular, are doing exactly the same, yet she doesn't mention anything of that. Instead like the great republican strapped in Bush gear, she manipulates the reader into thinking that everything Moore put in the movie is bad, very bad, not right, because Bush is as sweet and harmless as a little kitty cat and he can do nothing wrong, why did Moore attack this poor man?! He has never manipulated the public, no sir... :cheesy:

But hey, I am not saying she's not right, I'm just saying stop pointing your finger at the other party when what you're party does is exactly the same.

[Drakeon]

Care to give any proof of all this supposed manipulation Spirit? You know.. like how she gave links to back her up.

Aside from that, she wasn't talking about politics in general, just the movie and debunking it of its many deciets.

[Bartleby]

Well actually IMO Spirit F9/11 is one view or side of the story and she presented the other. She also clearly identified herself as a free thinker, and very much a conservative. I really don't see anything hypocritical about what she's done because all she's doing is showing the other side of the coin and calling Moore on his bs.
Anyone, Republican, Democrat, etc., who presents only one side of a story can expect to be called on it by those of the opposite opinion. This is to be expected and is the stuff of debates.
And I don't really see her arguments as being hollow or shallow, as she gives you a quote, scene, etc from Moore's movie, states the omitted facts with sources, and reveals when Moore is being dishonest.
Like I said, I don't think their would be so much controversy if Moore hadn't held this cute propoganda piece out as an actual documentary based on facts. But he did so he's being called on his bs.
Again I find it amusing that he would hire lawyers to crush critics and skeptics. Edit#1 - Would an honest person need or have any desire to go to such lengths? What is he afraid of?

[Havard]

Edit#1 - Would an honest person need or have any desire to go to such lengths? What is he afraid of?

Good question. I remember seeing plenty of angry ADL attorneys on talk news shows before the Passion came out, and Mel Gibson didn't once mention attorneys or libel charges.

[Wickedly_Evil]

Actually I do believe at the very beginning she said she went to the theatre with her Bush gear on. That being said I really think her essay is clear and concise. I didn't see anywhere in the article where she really pushed republican views. I guess from that article she is a clever girl and I imagine she knew that doing so would make her article weaker.

For a much shorter summary: she clears up Moore's misleading journalistic intentions and debunks 90% or more of the spin he puts on the facts in his documentary.

ScytheNoire, I love Bullsh1t! New Episodes air on August 4th or 5th so there will probably be some new downloads a few days later. What I find irksome about Showtime is that their webpage for schedule times is just horrible. They need to steal the layout from HBO, especially the search ability.

[SpiritWalker]

Ok, I think you're not understanding me right here, didn't I just say her critics to the movie were right, but her arguments are hollow to me, BECAUSE, and now follows the reason why her piece means absolutely nothing to me, she defends Bush and the rest of the Republicans, she criticises Moore for being a deceiver with his movie, while Bush's commercials for his campaign are exactly that, deceiving. That's being hypocritical. Why is she being manipulative? Because she also only tells one side of the story, she paints Moore as the idiot and Bush as the hero, that's why. Those 2 reasons, first the hypocracy of the piece, and second the one-sided view of the piece make it a bad read to me at least.

And besides she was talking politics, if the movie is about politics, it's kind of hard not to take political facts and stuff in your arguments.

Still it's my oppinion that it is a bad piece on the fact that I find it a piece of hypocritical deceiving.. ahem.. text. If you're gonna write a piece like this tell the pros the cons and give a good conclusion, she only mentioned the cons, I doubt there were only cons.. But maybe I shouldn't talk because I haven't seen the movie and I don't live in America.

Btw, have you seen the movie Bartleby?

[Bartleby]

Okay I see what you're saying. You were looking for the pros and cons of the movie. However she may have not found a single positive thing in his movie, and is therefor doing just what you would like her to do.

As for defending Bush and all the Republicans, she is still only pointing out where Moore is being decietful and by so doing she is indirectly defending some of the related actions of the Bush Administration.

She doesn't speak about political campaign commercials and the like because while they are most certainly one-sided, she is debating the movie F9/11, not campaign commercials. If she were debating campaign commercials (Democrat, Republican, Other, or in general) and she didn't treat all sides equally then yes I would say her arguments were subjective and therefor less credible. But again, this is not the case.

No I have not seen F9/11, because I wouldn't pay to see the movie. However, if I could view the film without putting one fraction of a cent in Moore's pocket, I would see it.

[Unreg!stered]

Haha, American politics always makes me laugh, every party, wether it's the democrates or the republicans, always tries to manipulate the people into thinking they're right and the other party's the fool. This chick may have discovered that that whole movie is nothing but dumb 'socialist propaganda' from a 'quasi communist' (using those terms also works manipulative imo and shows her whole piece is biased towards republicans), but the republican party does all the same with the elections etc. etc. And the statement of century is again of use here; people.. are idiots.

Don't forget, Spirit, that political hypocrisy knows no international boudary. American politicians aren't alone in their methods of deception and back talk. There is no country or political system yet that has been able to avoid that kind of garbage. Idiocy is a world wide plague and not just limited to those lacking education.

As for the girl's article it is good (however biased) in presenting the other side of the coin. However, most people understand that Moore contorts the truth just as much as any politician. While this young lady's article does a good job shooting down many of Moore's points Farenheit 9/11, don't let yourself be blinded by it. There are good ideas coming from both sides of the political spectrum. Blindly supporting one side and automatically denouncing the other does no good.

[SpiritWalker]

Don't forget, Spirit, that political hypocrisy knows no international boudary. American politicians aren't alone in their methods of deception and back talk. There is no country or political system yet that has been able to avoid that kind of garbage. Idiocy is a world wide plague and not just limited to those lacking education.
Oh yeah, I do know, but with America it's almost more important, because the leaders of America seem to not have to listen to organisations such as the UN, and can attack countries without their consent, one of the reasons why the whole world is involved in who is president in the US.. But still you're right this sorta stuff happens everywhere, some countries less or more than others.

As for the girl's article it is good (however biased) in presenting the other side of the coin. However, most people understand that Moore contorts the truth just as much as any politician. While this young lady's article does a good job shooting down many of Moore's points Farenheit 9/11, don't let yourself be blinded by it. There are good ideas coming from both sides of the political spectrum. Blindly supporting one side and automatically denouncing the other does no good.
I never chose a side, but she clearly has.

[Unreg!stered]

Oh yeah, I do know, but with America it's almost more important, because the leaders of America seem to not have to listen to organisations such as the UN, and can attack countries without their consent, one of the reasons why the whole world is involved in who is president in the US.. But still you're right this sorta stuff happens everywhere, some countries less or more than others.


I never chose a side, but she clearly has.

My response about the girl's article was directed to everybody, not just you, Spirit. You are right, though that everyone in the world is affected by who's president of America, but that doesn't mean that politicians aren't politicians just because they reside in Poland, China, or where ever.

As for American leaders not having to listen to the U.N. and attacking whomever they please is a problem that any leader of any nation would have should they be in the same position America is now. No one person or nation is above the faults of man, despite what they may think (and no, this isn't an accusation of you, just an observation of human nature). It's easy to point out the bad parts of the most powerful nation in the world because when the U.S. is wrong, its on a huge scale.

[SaroDarksbane]

My response about the girl's article was directed to everybody, not just you, Spirit. You are right, though that everyone in the world is affected by who's president of America, but that doesn't mean that politicians aren't politicians just because they reside in Poland, China, or where ever.

As for American leaders not having to listen to the U.N. and attacking whomever they please is a problem that any leader of any nation would have should they be in the same position America is now. No one person or nation is above the faults of man, despite what they may think (and no, this isn't an accusation of you, just an observation of human nature). It's easy to point out the bad parts of the most powerful nation in the world because when the U.S. is wrong, its on a huge scale.
Is this the same Unregistered from the WCIII forums??

[Eiger]

Is this the same Unregistered from the WCIII forums??
Only if he's got a second account. He's only got 6 posts.

[Unreg!stered]

Is this the same Unregistered from the WCIII forums??

Yes it's me, how're you doing Saro? I haven't been on the forums for a year and a half (if not longer). Did ol' Bongfarmer and Canadian Tire Money make the transit over to WoW forums too?

[Drakeon]

eiger, posts on warcraftiii.net and worldofwar.net are not shared. You use different accounts for each forum, unlike the d2.net and wow.net forums.

[SaroDarksbane]

Yes it's me, how're you doing Saro? I haven't been on the forums for a year and a half (if not longer). Did ol' Bongfarmer and Canadian Tire Money make the transit over to WoW forums too?
Wasssuppppp!!!!

Bongfarmer's been gone for a while, but CTM is still very much on the WCIII.net forums. You should drop by and say hi sometime. =)

[Pongle]

Attempted assasination of Bush.. i've yet to see cohearent proof that saddam was behind that, credible as my arse is for sources my friend on the Florida subject (also note the anti-voting policy which had some questionable charecteristics which George has been trying to cover up with help from Jeb), the Gulf War was started by you guys so don't *****.

gee, i just owned all of you ****ing americans huh?

[Drakeon]

Oh look at that... No proof or links or anything.

Yea, we got pwned.. yea thats it. :grrr:

[Hollum]

I don't really know alot about Moore except from random things I've caught on TV, and I have to head off to work so I could really only read the first part of the article, but could someone point out why she's calling Moore a communist?

[Havard]

Attempted assasination of Bush.. i've yet to see cohearent proof that saddam was behind that, credible as my arse is for sources my friend on the Florida subject (also note the anti-voting policy which had some questionable charecteristics which George has been trying to cover up with help from Jeb), the Gulf War was started by you guys so don't *****.

gee, i just owned all of you ****ing americans huh?

Are you serious?

[Bhs Crew]

.........
You're joking. You have to be joking.

The atempted assination of President Bush Sr. was after the first gulf war was over. It was during Clinton's administration. Bush was visiting Kuwait. Saddam's men placed a bomb in a car and were going to park it on the route that Bush's car was taking. They were going to explode it when he drove by.

Fortunately for Bush the car got into an accident and a Kuwait policeman discovered the bomb. The people who planned it worked for Saddam. Clinton did a massive retaliation and that was the first and last time that Saddam used any kind of terrorism.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

They were going to explode it when he drove by.

Fortunately for Bush the car got into an accident and a Kuwait policeman discovered the bomb.

Woah! That's cool :). Coincidence? Bush was destined to be president! :lol: :flip:

[Unreg!stered]

Attempted assasination of Bush.. i've yet to see cohearent proof that saddam was behind that, credible as my arse is for sources my friend on the Florida subject (also note the anti-voting policy which had some questionable charecteristics which George has been trying to cover up with help from Jeb), the Gulf War was started by you guys so don't *****.

gee, i just owned all of you ****ing americans huh?


Your bitterness is a prime example of what is so wrong in this world.

[SaroDarksbane]

Woah! That's cool :). Coincidence? Bush was destined to be president! :lol: :flip:
A reverse destiny, since he had already been preisdent. =P

[Pongle]

Your bitterness is a prime example of what is so wrong in this world.
My bitterness only exists due to your stupidity fool.

[Bartleby]

Attempted assasination of Bush.. i've yet to see cohearent proof that saddam was behind that, credible as my arse is for sources my friend on the Florida subject (also note the anti-voting policy which had some questionable charecteristics which George has been trying to cover up with help from Jeb), the Gulf War was started by you guys so don't *****.

gee, i just owned all of you ****ing americans huh?
Hahahaha that's hilarious. Do your country a favor and don't admit where you are from. Oh and don't forget to take your meds.

[Pongle]

Hahahaha that's hilarious. Do your country a favor and don't admit where you are from. Oh and don't forget to take your meds.
Do your country a favour and commit suicide soon, you dumbass.

[Booms]

Awww, the trolls are just soo cute!

[Unreg!stered]

My bitterness only exists due to your stupidity fool.

Thank you for again, proving my point.

[Bhs Crew]

Woah! That's cool :). Coincidence? Bush was destined to be president! :lol: :flip:
No sorry. This was after his presidency. We're talking about Bush Sr. here. I have no idea were GWB was at this time, but he wasn't in any danger.

Still is amazing though.

[Bhs Crew]

Do your country a favour and commit suicide soon, you dumbass.
Mabye you aren't joking. Are you from the Battle.net forums? Here when we make a point we then like to back said point up with some kind of facts or link.

At the very least we try to be civil.

The atempted assassination by Saddam of Bush Sr. was after the Gulf war. The Gulf war was already over at this point so it had nothing to do with it. As for whether or not Saddam was behind the attempted assassination; I don't have time to go look it up and find a good link for you, but I can assure you that it is not a very controversial issue (unlike the 2000 election). Everyone agreed that Saddam was behind it, even Saddam didn't bother to try to convince people he was innocent.

[Havard]

Please, don't feed the troll... :lol:

[Bartleby]

Please, don't feed the troll...Come on, let's give our little troll a chance to be clever. Since it's first two posts were devoid of any intelligence or creativity, we should offer it one last chance to impress us with its l337 B.net kiddie skills, after that I'll pass on responding. It's only fair seeing how the little sob is obviously clinically r3tarded.

Okay, now listen up little troll, here's an example of humor, mixed with fact.

Pongle short for Pongle Berry, is the last remnants of sh1t left on your @ss that clings for dear life to the hair between your butt cheeks.

Now you try.

[Echod16]

Haha, American politics always makes me laugh, every party, wether it's the democrates or the republicans, always tries to manipulate the people into thinking they're right and the other party's the fool. This chick may have discovered that that whole movie is nothing but dumb 'socialist propaganda' from a 'quasi communist' (using those terms also works manipulative imo and shows her whole piece is biased towards republicans), but the republican party does all the same with the elections etc. etc. And the statement of century is again of use here; people.. are idiots.

OMG you nooblar, that's nothing new you n00bzor

;p

in anycase, good read with what seem to be clear facts that Moore had hidden, and having not seen the movie, did she "forget" to leave out the parts that were true (if there were any?)

[Mastgrr]

I skipped through it and bet that within the minute I could find a lie by her. I did. With ease.

She quotes Michael Moore and responds with
“only one congressman has a son or daughter enlisted in the armed forces.” FLAT-OUT-LIE.
The actual (http://www.redlinerants.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1089705299&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&) quote is (http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/index.php?id=21)

"Out of the 535 members of Congress, only one had an enlisted son in Iraq."

Sheeeee's a liiiiiiiiaaaaaaaarrrr!!

You link to an article that you say debunks this movie by a 17 year old. You say that "Moore may twist facts and quotes" as one of the reasons you dislike Michael Moore. Yet, this very article you link to makes a FLAT-OUT-LIE through a spin-doctored quote!

Good job!


On a personal note I love the fact (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-et-moore11jun11,1,20992.story?coll=la-headlines-frontpage) (req. free subscription) that Moore has hired Chris Lehane (a widely despised, even by the Dems, Democrat spin doctor) I'd like for you to dig up facts behind your statement. If you don't, you're a liar. (for you who haven't checked his "fact" link, it doesn't say anything about Chris Lehane being widely despised by democrats and being a democrat spin doctor there)

to help defend him against criticism of his most recent propoganda pieceYour post is as much propaganda. Hell, you don't even back up your statements with facts and link to a piece that spin in a quest to disapprove a so-called spinner.

[BenDover]

Quite nice article, but of course it's just as subjective as Moore's work. I'm sure if somebody went through all her points there would be some flaws in the as well.

[Bartleby]

"Out of the 535 members of Congress, only one had an enlisted son in Iraq."
Okay, she thought he said,"only one congressman has a son or daughter enlisted in the armed forces".
I'm going to assume you somehow have a transcript from the movie and know the exact wording, but I doubt she did. My guess is she went into that movie and either kept mental note or took notes on a pad in the theater. I can see how she'd flub his quote (again assuming that your quote is accurate, and where could I aqcuire the transcripts?) and so I think a more logical conclusion is she heard or remembered hearing him say only one congressman had a son or daughter in the armed forces and not that she intended to decieve. The fact is when you quote someone, the evidence is there so you're going to do your best to get the quote right, seeing as how if you get it wrong everyone will know and your point will blow up in your face. I hope that the little mistake made by a 17y/o girl, who does not have access to a transcript and a team of fact checkers, isn't your only bit of evidence of her obviously fraudulent work.

Good job!

I'd like for you to dig up facts behind your statement. If you don't, you're a liar. (for you who haven't checked his "fact" link, it doesn't say anything about Chris Lehane being widely despised by democrats and being a democrat spin doctor there)

First off, lick my @ss. I've never gone hostile on you, so try to keep your personal insults to yourself. Secondly, look back at the post Grr. The link is to back up the fact that Lehane and Fabiani, the self proclaimed Master's of Disaster, were hired by Moore to hush critics. Whenever you see ( ) it's my personal opinion, I do that to make it OBVIOUS to everyone (well, almost everyone) it's my opinion. If it were in " " then you could expect to see it in the linked article.

Your post is as much propaganda. Hell, you don't even back up your statements with facts and link to a piece that spin in a quest to disapprove a so-called spinner.

A bit of history for your benefit. Lehane has earned the reputation of rent-a-hack since his work back when the whole white water scandal came out. His job, which he did well, was to dig up dirt on anyone pursuing the scandal. His favorite tactic was to then leak that dirt to the press, also known as misdirection. He did the same for Gore in 2000 and Kerry during the Democrat nominee race. Go ask Howard Dean about what he thinks about Lehane. I'll try to find some public quotes of prominent Democrats coming out against Lehane (although most politicians are smart enough not to do that to their own, especially against a guy this nasty, who they may want to buy at some later date, and during an election year)

On another note, yes this girl is partisan, probably as partisan as Moore is. So what? That makes her points no less valid. It's not like she tried to hide her conservative slant.

[Hollum]

I'm not for Moore, and I'm not against him (I really don't care either way), but what seem's to be so crazy about him skewing facts, or anything like that to get HIS point across? If you wanted to get your point across, you wouldn't put things in it that went against what you were saying.
And just to point out, as long as Moore doesn't say that what he says is all fact, it doesn't have to be. I don't know, maybe he has said this.
Either way he's not a communist.

[Havard]

He blends "documentary reporting" with editorialism in a dangerous and deceptive way, IMO. His defenders have said "it's all fact, it's all true" and "it's his opinion" at the same time. Anyone can take the most damning bits about another person or administration (take Clinton for example), piece them together, and add in their own finger-pointing editorial, but would you want that to be confused with a documentary? Of course not.

Let's say I clipped together the most damning bits about the pardons (Mark Rich et. al.), Whitewater, the Paula Jones scandal, the illegal campaing donations, Filegate, etc. Then I add my own take on the scandals. So everything is either fact or opinion, no lies. Still, would that be an honest documentary about President Clinton? Of course not, it would be a propaganda piece. The fact is, Bill Clinton did some good and some bad, and any honest documentary shows all, not select, damning bits.

Now before anyone says "but it was just an editorial", let me ask: do you prefer Michael Savage's or George Will's style of editorialism? Because one is more honest and more even-handed, and the other is simply fanning partisan rage and plants the most negative ideas in people's heads (just like Moore.)

[Hollum]

Thanks for pointing that out. In my opinion, everything is propoganda these days.
By the way, the stuff you said about Clinton reminds me of that Anti-Clinton Library (I can't remember the actual name, but I believe it opened fairly recently). Its got everything you just mentioned in it.

[Bartleby]

Anti-Clinton Library??? Rofl, some people have way too much time on their hands.

[Glitch]

Moore is trying to reveal the truth and free the government from compasionate conservatative, who he belives are doing the world wrong.

I like Moore, he's not afriad to speak out. Sure, the girl has a few good points, but if she hates him so much doesn't she make a documentry about "Why I hate Moore and the wrong he has done this country. Conservatives will rule the world." See how well that sells, and if she can back it up.

[Havard]

Thanks for pointing that out. In my opinion, everything is propoganda these days.
By the way, the stuff you said about Clinton reminds me of that Anti-Clinton Library (I can't remember the actual name, but I believe it opened fairly recently). Its got everything you just mentioned in it.

Do you mean that you don't think anyone in the editorial business presents a balanced case for his or her opinions? Have you ever seen the conservative editorialist George Will on ABC's This Week or heard liberal talk personality Daniel Schorr on NPR's Weekly Addidion? There are most certainly many intelligent and honest editorialists out there, and just because Rush and Franken are popular with the masses, it doesn't mean that we should support such propagandists.

[Hollum]

Do you mean that you don't think anyone in the editorial business presents a balanced case for his or her opinions? Have you ever seen the conservative editorialist George Will on ABC's This Week or heard liberal talk personality Daniel Schorr on NPR's Weekly Addidion? There are most certainly many intelligent and honest editorialists out there, and just because Rush and Franken are popular with the masses, it doesn't mean that we should support such propagandists.

No I don't mean that, I'm just saying that I look at everything as propoganda. That doesn't necesarily mean it is, it just means that I'm very untrusting. Either way I'll check out those things you mentioned.

[Bartleby]

Yeah Moore's not afraid to speak out, for 30 grand here, 50 grand there. He's also not afraid to defend his opinion pieces, as long as he's behind a team of lawyers and seasoned spin doctors that have every intention of putting the hurt on critics. If he wants to reveal the truth, then that's what he should do. Instead he makes the truth up as he goes or only shows part of the story. I'd listen to Moore, regardless of his political beliefs, if he presented the whole truth instead of the hack job for which he's known.

[Havard]

No I don't mean that, I'm just saying that I look at everything as propoganda. That doesn't necesarily mean it is, it just means that I'm very untrusting. Either way I'll check out those things you mentioned.

Another good guy is Tim Russert. I have yet to see him take sides on any issues, and he's a lot more civilized than O'Reilly or some of the other hotheads on political talk shows. And the PBS program Washington Week has little if any propagandizing (but it's on Friday nights :grrr: )

Anyway, we can both agree that there are intelligent and honest people on both sides, let's support them! :buddies:

[Mort-Malice]

On another note, yes this girl is partisan, probably as partisan as Moore is. So what? That makes her points no less valid. It's not like she tried to hide her conservative slant.

Moore never tried to hide his Liberal slant, so I don't see how exactly you can bash Moore's points in his movie if you believe being partisan doesnt make people's points less valid.

This here proves that this 17 year old is on par with Moore, and the only right you have to slander Moore, is the fact that you dont agree with him.


EDIT: The girl who wrote thhat paper truely didnt do all of her research. Here is a link explaining the congressmen and their relations military involvements: http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/fahrenheit911/warsignup.htm

Moores statement may not have been entirely correct, but it was not a "FLAT OUT LIE"

[Bartleby]

I agree, truth is truth regardless of who tells it; which is why I said one's political slant doesn't invalidate their point. Their practices however can invalidate their point.

The girl never put out a propoganda piece and held it out as an actual documentary. She offered a rebuttal to Moore's movie, giving those who saw and read both a more complete picture of the actual truth. Like I said, if Moore were honest and said hey, this is an opinion piece, then I'd care less; but the fact is that he holds his opinion out as fact and then uses shady footage splicing and false data to bolster his opinion.

But so far the only complaint I've read about the girl's article is that she flubbed one quote, which Moore only told half the truth on anyway.

[Mort-Malice]

Yeah, I guess I never thought of Moore's movie as anything more than an opinion piece, with an opinion I agreed with, I can see where you are coming from though with the fact that Moore does try to lable the movie as a documentry. Something I wish he hadnt done, even though I can see why he did it.

[Hollum]

But so far the only complaint I've read about the girl's article is that she flubbed one quote, which Moore only told half the truth on anyway.

I may be wrong on this, but she also called him a communist (I believe) which is wrong. In fact I'm fairly certain he's not even socialist, but again I may be wrong. If you have anything showing any socialist behaviour on his part, could you send me a link please? or even better, communist, as I'm 99% certain he is neither.

[Bartleby]

Haha, yeah that was overboard, but if I recall she called him a quasi communist which is to say he resembles a communist in some way or another. Funny thing about that, if communism actually worked in life as it does on paper, we would probably all be communist. Democracy on the other hand doesn't work on paper, but it does in practice... go figure.

[Mastgrr]

I may be wrong on this, but she also called him a communist (I believe) which is wrong. In fact I'm fairly certain he's not even socialist, but again I may be wrong. If you have anything showing any socialist behaviour on his part, could you send me a link please? or even better, communist, as I'm 99% certain he is neither.Michael Moore supported Wesley Clarks (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/15/cnna.moore/) stance on cutting all income tax from people earning 50 000 or less per year. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2004-01-05-clark-taxes_x.htm) From a European perspective (where we have many socialist democrat parties) that's pretty much as un-socialist as you can get. To be honest, I was quite suprised when I read that Michael Moore supported such a tax cut. It's very unleftism (in a European perspective) to completely abolish tax income to the state, regardless if it's low, middle or high income citizens.

[Bartleby]

Ack!!! That plan could screw our zero population growth push. It's not all people earning 50k or less, it's families of four or more, meaning everyone would want to have at least two children. Sounds okay, but what happens if people have more or less(and they will)? Clarks said it did nothing to help single people. Your version of the story makes more sense Grr.
As far as taxes go, a flat tax for individuals and corporations is really the only way to go if you want to even the tax burden. Of course tax attorneys and cpa's aren't going to let that happen.

[Unreg!stered]

Haha, yeah that was overboard, but if I recall she called him a quasi communist which is to say he resembles a communist in some way or another. Funny thing about that, if communism actually worked in life as it does on paper, we would probably all be communist. Democracy on the other hand doesn't work on paper, but it does in practice... go figure.

Here's something thats even weirder: the average family unit runs under a system much like communism, yet it's clear the capitalism works better (at the moment). Odd, isn't it? :lol:

[Bartleby]

Hmm I seem to remember my family was more a dictatorship, but then I didn't have to go to work, so maybe you're right :thumbsup:

Anyway, communism does work in small groups and capitalism requires lots of participants, so maybe it's not that weird.

[Nojin]

When I saw this thread, I thought you meant Mandy Moore. Soo... I guess I'll be on my way. :)

[Booms]

It's Nojin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Havard]

When I saw this thread, I thought you meant Mandy Moore. Soo... I guess I'll be on my way. :)

Not Julianne?

http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/31/15/12m.jpg

Or Demi?

http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/95/15/22m.jpg

Or Mary Tyler?

http://i.imdb.com/mptv1.gif


Wait a sec... Mary Tyler Moore looked pretty darn good back in the day!

[Havard]

When I saw this thread, I thought you meant Mandy Moore. Soo... I guess I'll be on my way. :)

Not Julianne?

http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/31/15/12m.jpg

Or Demi?

http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/95/15/22m.jpg

Or Mary Tyler?

http://www.classictvhits.com/shows/marytylermooreshow/pics/mtm06.jpg


Wait a sec... Mary Tyler Moore looked pretty darn good back in the day! Hello!

[Hollum]

Anyway, communism does work in small groups and capitalism requires lots of participants, so maybe it's not that weird.

I can't remember who exactly (I'll look it up if anyone wants) but some guy came up with an idea that the political and economic structure of a country should be based on size and other factors.
For example:
Large Countries - Totalitarianism (God I hate spelling that)
Middle Countries - democratic monarchy
Really small countries - Communism

Obviously he was a monarchist. Interesting idea either way.

[Coltaine]

17) Debunks Moore?s claim that only 1 Congressmen has a son in the military. Turns out there?s 8, one of which is a Democrat and that there are 36 vets in congress, and that Ashcroft?s son had been in the military.


I have not read the whole thing an don't want to start old sentiment. But i say the movie today an from what i remembered, Moore said that only 1 child of a congressman was in IRAK, not only 1 child of a congressman is in the ARMY.
Did i see a different version? :scratch: