Your religous beliefs?

[bleachy]

Just wondering what everyones personal beliefs of religion are.

You don't have to explain if you want to, but go ahead if you feel you must.

[Eiger]

It's been awhile, but this one's been done:
http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=174909

Do we really want to do it again?

[Ryu]

shoulda put major subdivisions of christianity, im a catholic personally

[Owmyeye]

I believe in swordfish.

[Essex]

I second the fact that this has been done before. Is bitter a religion? if so sign me up and give me tax exemption

[Booms]

Heh, well, I'm Agnostic by belief, but I consider myself Jewish by blood.

I guess I should vote Agnostic, but I also want to vote Judaism...

[Xaf]

Im either catholic or atheist. Can't remember.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

I'm catholic, but certainly not atheist :).

Ryu - there's no need for "major divisions" in christianity. If you're in the spirit, people who go to many different churches will agree on just about everything.

[bleachy]

The reason I only put Christianity is because there is a 10 selection limit per poll.


Anyways, I am an athiest.

[Pongle]

Hehe, im Atheist by default, everything else seems to be like "YOU DON'T AGREE... DAI HEATHEN!!"

Almost voted other and declared myself a Jedi, I did that in the Census for Australia.

[Drakeon]

Well you coulda taken out Confuscionism, as I doubt anyone here is that (It's a tiny religion isn't it? I think I remember studying it in 7th grade and it wasn't even really a religion, more of a set of belieifs.. but whatever)

I voted Christian, but I'm protestant.

[Galron Kincaid]

Ancient Roman Pantheism.


It's raining bad outside: the Great Jupiter must be really mad at someone.

[Paladuck]

I don't know wth Confuscionism is, but its not a religion. As for Confucianism, it is "often characterized as a system of social and ethical philosophy rather than a religion."

[Essex]

social and ethical philosphy sounds exactly like every religion I've ever herad...

I use to list Buddhist but I'm an awful buddhist. So basically i'm an agnostic who belives in reincarnation and karma. However I'm not doing anything to improve my karma.

I still wish that Greek Pantheism was still an option. Diyonisus ruled.... now that would be a service I could get into.

[Lord Chad]

Been a christian all my life and I have learned most of them are hypocrits.Except my preacher which he is a really nice guy who is very opened minded. He doesnt hate homosexuals like most people would think.I am a methodist but when I get older I want to be catholic or some other cristian church because I like to try something new.

[Ryu]

yeah stupid/ignorant/etc ppl ruin all groups
and there are some pretty important differences within christianity but i dont know how much or if it really matters
and i dont mind if ppl are agnostic/atheist (or another religion/sect) or whatever as long as they dont try to force their beliefs on me and i try not to force my beliefs on anyone else

[Joro]

I have a question for people living in the America...

Is it common that people use the words "god bless you!"? or similar!..

[Ryu]

yeah but most ppl just repeat words as politeness, dosnt mean anything anymore to most ppl :(

[Matt101]

I second the fact that this has been done before. Is bitter a religion? if so sign me up and give me tax exemption


HAHAHAHAHA thats so great

[Blackmoore]

Truly, I follow Buddhism.

[SoloCaster]

paegan/wiccan

[Havard]

social and ethical philosphy sounds exactly like every religion I've ever herad...

I use to list Buddhist but I'm an awful buddhist. So basically i'm an agnostic who belives in reincarnation and karma. However I'm not doing anything to improve my karma.

I still wish that Greek Pantheism was still an option. Diyonisus ruled.... now that would be a service I could get into.

Whoa there.... you might want to look a little more closely at Dionysus. He was a latecomer to the Greek pantheon (hardly mentioned in the works of Homer) and many Greeks were hostile to his followers. Accounts of his orgies (worship) were often accompanied by raping, killing and mutilating people. Check out Euripides' play, The Bacchae and The History of Rome (Livy) for details.

[Hollum]

I am a Deist

[Lord Chad]

Truly, I follow Buddhism.

Buddist are cool.I met one from tiland who came to visit america.They are really friendly people.

[Mad_Mat]

In terms of faith I consider myself Atheist, but I don't deny my Jewish heritage.

[UndeadTrollMon]

Im Hindu, and unfortunatly most people are radically ignorant of my religion, the worlds oldest, third largest, with 1 billion followers, a massive influence on world thought, and enough philosophy, culture and scripture to have kept ancient Greek, Chinese and Egyptian thinkers busy for their entire lives ;-) Part of the ignorance is because of rascist distortion and lies throughout the ages, which continue today after being engraved into people's minds, the only religion to have suffered more in this respect is probably Voodoo, which has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of sacrifice and 'doll' crap.

Also I must say, Confusianism is a philosophical system of honour not a religion, and the important religions of Sikhism, Jainism, Chinese Traditional, Taoism, Rastafarianism, Zorostrianism, Baha'i, and Voodoo should have been listed if there was space, as some of those have followers close to 100 million...

[ekim]

I wasnt raised to belive in anything really. (That was my dads doing, as a hardcore athiest. I would have been a little catholic if it was just my mom. Although now my mom has turned into a combination of Catholosism and Buddism.) I was told basic bible stories here and there by my relatives when I was little, but my parents didnt take me to any kind of church ever. I can count the number of times ive been to a church service on one hand, and its never been with my parents or any other members of my immediete family. Ive wandered back and forth about what I belive in, thinking about all the time. Officially I am an agnostic for now, until I find somthing that feel's right.

Although all of my real life friends are christian's of some sort, and to them, I am a christian, simiply because I do not do well in debates, and dont feel like slugging out that topic with them. Plus I hate it when people try and convert me.

One thing my mom did teach me about religion, is to respect what people belive in, and to let them belive in it. Which is why I get super pissed when people try and convert me. I'm not trying to convert them... so why do they have to try and convert me? Im respecting them about what they belive in, why cant they respect what I belive in?

[UndeadTrollMon]

Yeh I think people trying to convert others is really bad, the Indian religions dont belive in it, although because anyone is free to take any path, some have chosen to ignore this these days, but they at least do it in a fair way rather than some people who do it to poor uneducated third world people.

I was raised as a pure scientist/philosopher in terms of beliefs, but found Hinduism is pretty much compatible with any belief, even scientific ones, its uncanny and mysterios how much ancient India knew.

[Mordrack]

Personally, I'm agnostic.

Perhaps the most peculiar aspect of this poll is Atheism being listed as a religion. I've known many people who don't believe Atheism is a religion unto itself. However, I've always believed Atheism is the religion of no supreme being(s).

[Chiba]

Christian here.

In regards to 'christian subdivisions' there are some major things with in the different christian beliefs that are pretty major (nothing in comparason to the backbone though). Two I can think of is the idea of baptism, of when you should get baptized, and a second one is some catholics (not all) believe good works are required to get to heaven, while other christian subdivisions don't.

And concerning converting. For me (and I'm sure other Christians) we believe our faith to be truth, and what we believe to be the only truth. (which is good for any religion, otherwise it isn't much of a faith is it? imo) So we try to share our beliefs with others, and give them the choice to see our views because we care for them, and don't wish for them to miss the gift we have. So it's not out of selfish concerns, or the number game, it's just because we care for people. That's how it is for me anyways, and that's how I believe it should be.

And a third thing, always judge the religion, not the people! :)

Edit: Mordrack, maybe you're right, he should probably change it to 'none' then. We don't want to leave out the option for atheists to give their vote though.

[UndeadTrollMon]

Why is being the only truth a good thing? Isnt it entirely possible that infact all religions are equally as good? This is what a Hindu or Buddhist or Sikh belives, all paths lead to god, whatever that may be, but I guess it wont change Christian beliefs about 'Pagans' or Muslim beliefs about 'Kafirs', etc...

[Chiba]

Why is being the only truth a good thing? Isnt it entirely possible that infact all religions are equally as good? This is what a Hindu or Buddhist or Sikh belives, all paths lead to god, whatever that may be, but I guess it wont change Christian beliefs about 'Pagans' or Muslim beliefs about 'Kafirs', etc...

Well I guess I was being pretty ignorant to those religions with my wording, I was more trying to say that the religion believes it is absolutley true. Christian belief won't change, if it does it will no longer be christian belief. Since christianity is completley based around the Bible and what is says of Jesus. Personally I never use the word 'pagan' (neither does my church). I use the terms 'believers' and 'non-believers'. Pagan just sounds bleh, like I'm on a witchhunt of some sort :P

Btw, congrats on everyone in this thread for a none flaming religious thread! (so far! eeeek)

[AgeOfAbnegation]

CHiba - All christians agree about the faith and works thing. Essentially, you know as well as I do that we cannot earn our salvation, but we must respond to Christ and his saving work. THe works however are indicitive of this response. That is the catholic position, as well as the protestant churches.
"show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith, with works" - James

[Lord Chad]

There is many differnent christian factions like bapist belive in being babtized at a older age but methodist belive in being babtized when you are like a week old.And the way baptist pray is the same as methodist but catholics pray differently if I am correct becuase they pray to a saint and that saint might tell jesus and jesus will tell god.

[Chiba]

There is many differnent christian factions like bapist belive in being babtized at a older age but methodist belive in being babtized when you are like a week old.And the way baptist pray is the same as methodist but catholics pray differently if I am correct becuase they pray to a saint and that saint might tell jesus and jesus will tell god.

Yea, there's a lot of different things, it all really depends church to church (or if your church is part of a 'group' what's the word for that?). I'm a baptist I suppose, though I dislike labeling myself something other than a Christian, for all Christians are christians (if you get what I'm trying to say :P). We believe that being baptized is basically saying 'I'm a Chrisitan now!' to the 'church' (aka all Christians). It doesn't 'save' you (my term for when you become a believe, or Christian), it's more of a thing to formalize it. That's why we believe it doesn't make sense for them to do it to babies, considering they don't fully understand yet (and maybe never will).

And to AoA, sure God commands us to do good works, but why do you think it's a requirment to get to heaven? Or do you not? I'm not quite sure where you stand on that. I believe all you have to do is recognize you're a sinner, and that without Jesus you can do nothing, and that you have to realize Jesus died on the cross for your sins so that you may have eternal life with him, and accept him as your personal Lord and savior. If you sincerly mean all that, then that is all I believe is required.

[Daitanis]

I'm a Catholic :) Although I have friends from many different denominations. :)

[Havard]

And to AoA, sure God commands us to do good works, but why do you think it's a requirment to get to heaven? Or do you not? I'm not quite sure where you stand on that. I believe all you have to do is recognize you're a sinner, and that without Jesus you can do nothing, and that you have to realize Jesus died on the cross for your sins so that you may have eternal life with him, and accept him as your personal Lord and savior. If you sincerly mean all that, then that is all I believe is required.

I know this was meant for AoA, but I thought I'd pipe in:

"The Bible seems to clinch the matter [of faith and good works] when it puts the two things together in one amazing sentence. The first half is 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling'--which looks as if everything depended on us and our good actions: but the second half goes on. 'For it is God who worketh in you'--which looks as if God did everything and we nothing. I am afraid this is the sort of thing we come up against in Christianity. I am puzzled, but I am not surprised. You see, we are now trying to understand, and to separate into watertight compartments, what exactly God does and what man does when God and man are working together. And, of course, we begin by thinking it is like two men working together, so that you could say, 'He did this bit and I did that.' But this way of thinking breaks down. God is not like that. He is inside as well as outside: even if we could understand who did what, I do not think human language could properly express it. In the attempt to express it, different Churches say different things. But you will find that even those who insist most strongly on the importance of good actions tell you that you need Faith; and even those who insist most strongly on Faith tell you to do good actions. At any rate that is as far as I go."

-C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, Book 3, Chapter 12

[Xaf]

I saw the light today and was saved by jesus(saw him in my chocolate milk), so im definitely catholic now. Im glad cause the indecision was killing me.

[Chiba]

I know this was meant for AoA, but I thought I'd pipe in:

"The Bible seems to clinch the matter [of faith and good works] when it puts the two things together in one amazing sentence. The first half is 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling'--which looks as if everything depended on us and our good actions: but the second half goes on. 'For it is God who worketh in you'--which looks as if God did everything and we nothing. I am afraid this is the sort of thing we come up against in Christianity. I am puzzled, but I am not surprised. You see, we are now trying to understand, and to separate into watertight compartments, what exactly God does and what man does when God and man are working together. And, of course, we begin by thinking it is like two men working together, so that you could say, 'He did this bit and I did that.' But this way of thinking breaks down. God is not like that. He is inside as well as outside: even if we could understand who did what, I do not think human language could properly express it. In the attempt to express it, different Churches say different things. But you will find that even those who insist most strongly on the importance of good actions tell you that you need Faith; and even those who insist most strongly on Faith tell you to do good actions. At any rate that is as far as I go."

-C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, Book 3, Chapter 12

Again, I don't see where it says good works are a requirment. Maybe I'm just misreading it. Though, in reality, when you have faith, normally you do good works out of habit, but, ugh, I don't know, this has always puzzled me. I still believe all that is required is faith. John 3:16 says 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only son, and whosoever believes in him, shall not perish but have eternal life." I don't see 'whosoever believes in him (and does good works)'

I'm not arguing (perhaps I am) but I'm just curious how you come to this conclusion.

I saw the light today and was saved by jesus(saw him in my chocolate milk), so im definitely catholic now. Im glad cause the indecision was killing me.

Though humour is needed in every serious discussion, some people might take offense to that. You have a mocking tone almost (I don't know if that's intentional). Unless you ARE serious, in which I'm deeply sorry for questioning it.

[Havard]

Chiba,

As AoA put it, good works are not a requirement per se.

But in faith, you trust Christ and give yourself over to God. But it makes no sense to say that you trust someone and yet you do not take his advice. If you have given yourself over to Christ, it must follow that you are trying to obey Him.

The difference then is that you are not doing the good works in order to be saved, but rather that they are an inevitable byproduct of God, who is already working within you.

[Xaf]

Again, I don't see where it says good works are a requirment. Maybe I'm just misreading it. Though, in reality, when you have faith, normally you do good works out of habit, but, ugh, I don't know, this has always puzzled me. I still believe all that is required is faith. John 3:16 says 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only son, and whosoever believes in him, shall not perish but have eternal life." I don't see 'whosoever believes in him (and does good works)'

Ok even though i am Christian now i am still rather confused to what exactly God gave his "son" too. Isnt jesus in heaven right now? Sure he got crucified for a few days but who wouldnt do that to help save the entire human races souls, especially when you will get to live in heaven eternally after. Whats a few days of pain compared to that? Not saying i dont appreciate and believe in jesus, i am just confused on what he gave up.

[Chiba]

Chiba,

As AoA put it, good works are not a requirement per se.

But in faith, you trust Christ and give yourself over to God. But it makes no sense to say that you trust someone and yet you do not take his advice. If you have given yourself over to Christ, it must follow that you are trying to obey Him.

The difference then is that you are not doing the good works in order to be saved, but rather that they are an inevitable byproduct of God, who is already working within you.

Well, do some catholics think it IS a requirement? Cause any christian knows that God commands us to do good works (aka be nice blablabla), it's our choice to obey him, or not do it (aka sin). But not doing good works won't make you lose your salvation, because Christ's death was enough of a payment (and the only payment) that could save us from our sinful nature and ultimately our eternall damnation.

[UndeadTrollMon]

Humans have also endured torture for the benefit of the many, whether it is Mahatma Gandhi being imprisioned for so long and facing violence and murder with peace, or someone like William Wallace.

Although Jesus suffered for all humans and not just Indians or Scottish, isnt this the same thing?

[Chiba]

Ok even though i am Christian now i am still rather confused to what exactly God gave his "son" too. Isnt jesus in heaven right now? Sure he got crucified for a few days but who wouldnt do that to help save the entire human races souls, especially when you will get to live in heaven eternally after. Whats a few days of pain compared to that? Not saying i dont appreciate and believe in jesus, i am just confused on what he gave up.

Okay, imagine yourself having unlimited power. You can do anything with a snap of a finger etc. Then lowering your only son, to a crummy, sinful, disgusting human form. Personaly, I find that horrible enough. But on top of that, being mocked, beaten, and hung on a freakin cross, and willingly going a long with it even though he did NOTHING to deserve it. God could have snatched him right out of there and struck dead everyone trying to hurt him, but he didn't. Couldn't you imagine that if you were a father? And ultimatley, all the pain he took on the cross wasn't mostly physical, it was the burden of all our sins (past present future) on him, so that WE could accept his gift of eternal life.

Ok, that's the best I can do right of the bat, if you find anything confusing, wrong, blablabla lemme know and I'll think about it some more. (btw see Passion of the Christ if you haven't)

[Xaf]

Ok well that made no sense, im quiting christianity and its all your fault.

How about instead of puting his son on this cross he just snaps his fingers and has all this happen. Hes god, he knows past present future, he controlls EVERYTHING. If humans do anything its His fault. Even if he seperated humans from his direct control somehow He still knew what they would do when he did that. Omnipotence includes omniscience, and if you can see the future, control the future, but let it happen anyway it is your fault. It would even be his fault for creating man that way in the first place.

Now i know you have heard this before, but no christian has ever explained why this is not true. All they say is god gave us free will. But the key is He gave it too us. Therefore he created the free will, and since he is omniscient, he knew what that free will would lead too. All of these things completely contridict the fact that god is a loving being that can commit no sin.

And this is why christianity isnt worth my time let alone my faith.

[Havard]

Well, do some catholics think it IS a requirement? Cause any christian knows that God commands us to do good works (aka be nice blablabla), it's our choice to obey him, or not do it (aka sin). But not doing good works won't make you lose your salvation, because Christ's death was enough of a payment (and the only payment) that could save us from our sinful nature and ultimately our eternall damnation.

I can't answer for "some Catholics", but I can tell you what the official position is. The Council of Trent (1545-1563) clarified the issue after Luther put forth his position. They didn't say "good works causes salvation", but they did say that real faith induces good works, for charity or love of God is not real unless it enables us to keep the Commandments.

"So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith"
-James 2:17-18

So all we say is the same as James, that is, that you can't have faith and not good works also.

Xaf: People who want to have real discussions, do so without such incendiary comments. If you do not want to have a reasonable discussion, that is your business. Please do not use the forums for your own amusement at the expense of others.

[Xaf]

Advice noted and ignored.

[Chiba]

Ok well that made no sense, im quiting christianity and its all your fault.

How about instead of puting his son on this cross he just snaps his fingers and has all this happen. Hes god, he knows past present future, he controlls EVERYTHING. If humans do anything its His fault. Even if he seperated humans from his direct control somehow He still knew what they would do when he did that. Omnipotence includes omniscience, and if you can see the future, control the future, but let it happen anyway it is your fault. It would even be his fault for creating man that way in the first place.

Now i know you have heard this before, but no christian has ever explained why this is not true. All they say is god gave us free will. But the key is He gave it too us. Therefore he created the free will, and since he is omniscient, he knew what that free will would lead too. All of these things completely contridict the fact that god is a loving being that can commit no sin.

And this is why christianity isnt worth my time let alone my faith.

I had a feeling you were just mocking us, and I was right. Please stay away from serious discussions. Really, you answered your own question, God cares for us so he gave us free will. He still knows what we will do, he still could kill us with a snap of a finger, but he doesn't. You know why? Because he is a loving God. Sure he could create robots, that did his every will, and didn't complain or anything. But God created man to have something that had free will to worship him. He wanted genuine (sp?) worship. Correct me if I'm wrong Havard (or some other christians in the house).

[Havard]

Sure he could create robots, that did his every will, and didn't complain or anything. But God created man to have something that had free will to worship him. He wanted genuine (sp?) worship. Correct me if I'm wrong Havard (or some other christians in the house).

That's my take, yes.

Xaf: polite posting behavior is not merely my suggestion, it's also mandated by the rules. Don't flame or bait. Period.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

hehe, dont let Xaf bother you guys, he's a rebel without a clue :lol:. *pats xaf*.

An acquaintance said to me "salvation should be clear to everyone". I told him "if salvation were clear to all, it would not be salvation". If that were so, all existence would be in a state of perfection, and the concept of salvation would not be known, or possible, in that matter.

I think we all have to love Xaf. I love you Xaf :). *hugs*

[Chiba]

hehe, dont let Xaf bother you guys, he's a rebel without a clue :lol:. *pats xaf*.

An acquaintance said to me "salvation should be clear to everyone". I told him "if salvation were clear to all, it would not be salvation". If that were so, all existence would be in a state of perfection, and the concept of salvation would not be known, or possible, in that matter.

I think we all have to love Xaf. I love you Xaf :). *hugs*
pssst... AoA good tactic, hugging him might scare him away! :P Just kidding of course.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

hehe.. I really think he does need a hug tho.

[Booms]

I had a feeling you were just mocking us, and I was right. Please stay away from serious discussions. Really, you answered your own question, God cares for us so he gave us free will. He still knows what we will do, he still could kill us with a snap of a finger, but he doesn't. You know why? Because he is a loving God. Sure he could create robots, that did his every will, and didn't complain or anything. But God created man to have something that had free will to worship him. He wanted genuine (sp?) worship. Correct me if I'm wrong Havard (or some other christians in the house).

Xaf's point is that there is no true "free will" as long as their is an omnipotent God. He didn't answer his own question and niether did you.

[Chiba]

Xaf's point is that there is no true "free will" as long as their is an omnipotent God. He didn't answer his own question and niether did you.
In that case I'm completley confused. Why couldn't a omnipotent God give his creations free will? Xaf, you stated that God would be commiting sin if he gave human's free will, how is that so?

And on another note are we getting off topic? Maybe we should create a new thread to debate this stuff. I think this thread was just for people state what they believed in, not argue about. :P People might be scared away about sharing.

[Xaf]

hehe, dont let Xaf bother you guys, he's a rebel without a clue :lol:. *pats xaf*.

An acquaintance said to me "salvation should be clear to everyone". I told him "if salvation were clear to all, it would not be salvation". If that were so, all existence would be in a state of perfection, and the concept of salvation would not be known, or possible, in that matter.

I think we all have to love Xaf. I love you Xaf :). *hugs*
Ok, well salvation is a load of crap that is only relevant because we live on a planet where horrible things happen. Good things also happen, happiness, love etc, causing the bad times to only seem that much worse. But those good times also carry us through the bad, by giving us something to look forward too. Now obviously we would all want to be in a state where we were perfectly content and happy at all times. But as you are saying we would not beable to appreciate this state if we had not experienced the bad, so god must make us experience the bad. Doesnt that mean god must commit sins against us? Even worse, god created people knowing they will spend eternity in hell, just so others could experience the bad they inflict on the world so that these others could appreciate this salvation he offers us. Really is a ****ed up concept.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

I know where you're coming from Xaf. Actually, I wondered the same things myself 3 years ago during one painful summer. I can't offer an argument against the forces that affect our choices and decisions, but I have learned that we're better off now than before the fall of man. It could well be that God allowed us to fall - as we were placed in that situation in the proverbial garden of eden, with our simple intellects contending with a wise incorporeal creature, whom we call satan. So yes, God could well have allowed the fall.

However, what we miss is the good stuff. When we were created, it was in a state apart from God, separte corporeal creatures. After the fall, we were bound to the earth to perish in its cycle of generation and corruption. However, it was after those dark days that I realized what was meant by the scripture "how happy a fall to warrant for us a great salvation". In christ, in his merging with humanity, we are absorbed into the Godhead, so essentially, we are destined to become part of God. Scandalous to consider, but that is the doctrine.

[Xaf]

I know where you're coming from Xaf. Actually, I wondered the same things myself 3 years ago during one painful summer. I can't offer an argument against the forces that affect our choices and decisions, but I have learned that we're better off now than before the fall of man. It could well be that God allowed us to fall - as we were placed in that situation in the proverbial garden of eden, with our simple intellects contending with a wise incorporeal creature, whom we call satan. So yes, God could well have allowed the fall.

However, what we miss is the good stuff. When we were created, it was in a state apart from God, separte corporeal creatures. After the fall, we were bound to the earth to perish in its cycle of generation and corruption. However, it was after those dark days that I realized what was meant by the scripture "how happy a fall to warrant for us a great salvation". In christ, in his merging with humanity, we are absorbed into the Godhead, so essentially, we are destined to become part of God. Scandalous to consider, but that is the doctrine.
What about the people who end up in hell though? Are they just not actual beings like the rest of us, and more like animals? It seems a rather extreme sacrifice for these people to go to oblivion for eternity. On top of that if we become part of god wouldnt that sort of contridict the whole need for use to experience the bad in the first place? And wouldnt that mean that God does change, though i guess adding something to infinity still makes infinity.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

Alot of your questions here can be answered in reference to Christ's incarnation. Christ experiences all that we have, and entered time and space for the infusion of being. Humanity is one essence, that is transmitted from person to person, to each generation. Indeed, God is eternal, but it could be described in terms of dipping a foot into the realm of corruption, and popping back outside. Heavy matters, but you raise excellent questions. As for hell, yes, they are beings like any other. Due to the nature of this world, hell is a natural destination, as all things are naturally ordered to corruption in terms of the physical, and ordered to oblivion if not containing the essence of the divine. Corruption is thus the natural state, which makes it so easy to relate to once we've got a few years under our belts.

[Gorandius]

I'm a Christian. More specifically Presbyterian.

[Gastone]

What about the people who end up in hell though? Are they just not actual beings like the rest of us, and more like animals? It seems a rather extreme sacrifice for these people to go to oblivion for eternity. On top of that if we become part of god wouldnt that sort of contridict the whole need for use to experience the bad in the first place? And wouldnt that mean that God does change, though i guess adding something to infinity still makes infinity.


Good question Xaf.But have you wondered if what we call hell and heaven really exist?And if they do exist,then what are they?Hell is a barren,fiery wasteland,full of demons and devils torturing "evil" beings,while heaven is a wonderfull garden filled with pleasures and luxuries,like what we see in movies(really crapish movies,but still they have some influence to the people that watch them).If it so,then our life is simply a materialistic one,since both our punishment and our reward will be focused in that direction.

Or it is a spiritual one,where the punished ones,live again and again their sins,and the effect that they had to other people's lives,unable to do anything to correct their mistakes,while those that went to heaven live in an eternal nirvana,communicating with God,no matter what God this might be,either the Christian God(i am an Orthodox Christian),or Allah,Jahve(thats how He's spelled?),Buddha,etc etc,something that in every religion is consider the greatest reward and achievement.

As for the aspects of good and evil,these are both relative terms.Not everyone has the same sense of good and evil.For example,Islam consider women as inferior beings,who have almost no rights at all,a concept that christianity repels.What is good and just for muslims is bad and unjust for christians.Another example are the crusades;although christianism is a pacifistic religion,the Catholic church supported more than 14 crusades for over 400 years.Jesus said to love each other,but his representatives in earth had other plans in mind.It wasnt bad for them,as it wasnt for the rest of the crusaders.So who goes to hell and who to heaven,if they exist,its hard to say.

[xuNvaUnTeD_wArDeNx]

I'm a Christian, Catholic.

In response to Lord Chad, yes, we do sometimes pray to saints (particularly Mary) and as I recall, Mary doesn't suddenly work miracles, but she prays for us. so its a cycle of prayers.

Edit, to Gastone: My brother is an atheist for this reason: What if it is all lies? what if there is no heaven or hell, what if we just die? We will ve so disappointed, so astonished, that it was all conspiracy, that it was all just to make us better people??

My response lies in this: If we really do just die, and simply cease to exist, then... we'll never know, will we? we'll never be disappointed... we'll never wonder... because if it is all a hoax, we'll never know.

[Gastone]

I'm a Christian, Catholic.

In response to Lord Chad, yes, we do sometimes pray to saints (particularly Mary) and as I recall, Mary doesn't suddenly work miracles, but she prays for us. so its a cycle of prayers.

Edit, to Gastone: My brother is an atheist for this reason: What if it is all lies? what if there is no heaven or hell, what if we just die? We will ve so disappointed, so astonished, that it was all conspiracy, that it was all just to make us better people??

My response lies in this: If we really do just die, and simply cease to exist, then... we'll never know, will we? we'll never be disappointed... we'll never wonder... because if it is all a hoax, we'll never know.

I tottaly agree with you in this matter warden.

[Elevander]

Paganism.

Dead serious.

Mostly I go to the festivals every year, where clothing is optional and fire is everywhere. But it's a physical pleasure/fire type of thing.

Really fun! It's what Religion should be all about. If i'm going to believe in something, i'm going to believe in what I can feel, and see.

[Blackmoon]

Couldn't decide what to vote, so didn't vote at all :)

I suppose atheism was closest, but I don't concider myself an atheist so I didn't vote that.

I'd think Pagan is the closest description. "Purge the North of the Christian plague"-stuff. Although I try to keep more civil and respectful, than some, who I know.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

My response lies in this: If we really do just die, and simply cease to exist, then... we'll never know, will we? we'll never be disappointed... we'll never wonder... because if it is all a hoax, we'll never know.

Pascal's wager :p. You can have much more certainty than that, but your position is reasonable.

[Eiger]

Ryu - there's no need for "major divisions" in christianity. If you're in the spirit, people who go to many different churches will agree on just about everything.
Hehe, tell that to the Irish...

[AgeOfAbnegation]

Yea, that's the trouble when religion becomes simply a cultural thing, losing its true purpose.

[Havard]

Yea, that's the trouble when religion becomes simply a cultural thing, losing its true purpose.

Westminster Abbey and the Vatican have good relations, and they work together on many projects. I don't think that the troublemakers in Northern Ireland are representative examples of either Denomination.

[`89]

I voted Other.

[Xaf]

Xaf's point is that there is no true "free will" as long as their is an omnipotent God. He didn't answer his own question and niether did you.
And they never will answer that question.

[The_Iron_Raven]

Ok well that made no sense, im quiting christianity and its all your fault.

How about instead of puting his son on this cross he just snaps his fingers and has all this happen. Hes god, he knows past present future, he controlls EVERYTHING. If humans do anything its His fault. Even if he seperated humans from his direct control somehow He still knew what they would do when he did that. Omnipotence includes omniscience, and if you can see the future, control the future, but let it happen anyway it is your fault. It would even be his fault for creating man that way in the first place.

Now i know you have heard this before, but no christian has ever explained why this is not true. All they say is god gave us free will. But the key is He gave it too us. Therefore he created the free will, and since he is omniscient, he knew what that free will would lead too. All of these things completely contridict the fact that god is a loving being that can commit no sin.

And this is why christianity isnt worth my time let alone my faith.


Xaf, God did not, will not, and never will do anything bad. He can't, he is the ultimate good energy. He cannot do anything bad. He is above that. He is all knowing, so therefore he knows that evil is not the right path. He does not bring evil upon us, we do, and when we don't, its the work of the ultiamate bad energy.

I cant explain the second one very well, it is very hard. It is elusive, mysterious. Though God is like clear to me like light, the ultimate dark energy is like fog, blocking my view and changing constantly in the winds.

[Ryu]

we need free will to follow God without it being like enslavement so some ppl will choose to do evil

[Sage the Mage]

I've always thought that all knowing implies determinism and thus no free will.
So basically I'd always rule out an all-knowing being unless you like determinism.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

Iron Raven - Appreciate the sentiment, but change the word "energy" please - as that implies a contained, ordered force, which God cannot be.

Sage - God contains all knowledge in his being. Yet, to say that God has knowledge of anything at all is problematic. If God had knowledge of anything, it would be by concepts and reason. It is understood that God cannot be described in terms of aspects or qualities, as God must be completely and utterly simple - beyond our concepts even. As such, God cant have any knowledge, as well understand it.

At the same time, God "contains all things" in his being. Now, since knowing and being are one the same, it stands to reason that Gods knowledge exists in a different state than ours. Essentially, there is no free will with God, as you say, there is only one will - to be, to exist, and to, what we say, love. Now, in terms of humans, we find ourselves caught up in this reality, and the only free will we have is a choice regarding our will to love God, and receive his essence, or not to. In all ohter matters, I believe that determinism applies, but there remains a provision that goes beyond simple cause and effect realities, in that our souls are drawn to that which is beyond us. As such, our souls are irresistibly drawn to God in the extent that we perceive him. Thus, our noble efforts are to make ourselves available, and teach others about the love of God.

[Danny5]

Hehe, tell that to the Irish...
Ahahahahahaha.

Anyways, I suppose I'd be considered a Deist.

[Havard]

And they never will answer that question.

Omnipotent implies having the power to do anything, but not that one necessarily uses said power. We can have free will because God chooses not to override our will. So God's omnipotence just means that He could take over the reigns if He wants to.

[The_Iron_Raven]

Iron Raven - Appreciate the sentiment, but change the word "energy" please - as that implies a contained, ordered force, which God cannot be.
:scratch:

I chose the word "energy" because i feel it best describes the presence of God. I do not mean the "energy" you're thinking of. I mean more of a infinite spiritual force that is in everything and everyone that is in constant conflict with the forces of evil.

However, I was wrong in saying thast there was a dark energy also. Evil is not an energy, but a force in our lives that makes us oppose God, and His spiritual energy.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

Language is very important in these matters. Energy could be descriptive of the "presence" of God as you say, but it cannot be God. Also, evil cannot be an energy either, as evil is a deprivation of good and not an active agent in realty. Ironically, what fuells acts of evil is loss of love, and/or attempts to force love from people and/or things.

[Xaf]

Omnipotent implies having the power to do anything, but not that one necessarily uses said power. We can have free will because God chooses not to override our will. So God's omnipotence just means that He could take over the reigns if He wants to.
As i said before doesnt matter if directly or indirecly controls or whatever. He is supposed to have created mankind and this earth, and he is supposed to be omniscient. Therefore when he created mankind he controlled everything we have done from that point on by the way he created us. If he wanted a different outcome he would have changed how man was made, and because He is all powerfull everything down to the slightlest mole on your pinky would be part of his plan. Whether he wants to control us or not is really a non issue.

[The_Iron_Raven]

Language is very important in these matters. Energy could be descriptive of the "presence" of God as you say, but it cannot be God. Also, evil cannot be an energy either, as evil is a deprivation of good and not an active agent in realty. Ironically, what fuells acts of evil is loss of love, and/or attempts to force love from people and/or things.

Evil is not an energy (my definition of energy), you are corect in saying that. But you are incorrect in saying that evil is not an active force in reality. Evil is extremely hard to describe, descern, and understand. This is why some people think that evil is not a force.

You may ask, how does he know that evil is an agent in reality? Well, I can't really give you an answer. You have to feel evil yourself to truly know what evil is and if it exists. I personally have only had a brush of it myself, and that is why I can't really explain it well myself.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

Evil becomes an active force in people manifesting the desire for love, but not toward its ordered ends. Just a very general example - Hitler had "good" aims, he wanted to create the ideal race, but was that ordered to the right end? I think not. Evil cannot be an equal, active power "per se" like good - if so, they would cancel themselves out and reality would be impossible. Next time you have an "evil" thought or inclination, ask yourself where it comes from.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

As i said before doesnt matter if directly or indirecly controls or whatever. He is supposed to have created mankind and this earth, and he is supposed to be omniscient. Therefore when he created mankind he controlled everything we have done from that point on by the way he created us. If he wanted a different outcome he would have changed how man was made, and because He is all powerfull everything down to the slightlest mole on your pinky would be part of his plan. Whether he wants to control us or not is really a non issue.

You make a solid case, which I am forced to agree with. However, while your logic is sound enough, there are additional considerations you can add to the premises before they become consummated in the logic that follows. "Purpose for creation", is the other cornerstone of this. As such, since you correctly affirm movement and structure in causality, there is also an ultimate end in which this reality moves towards. Give that some thought.

[Sage the Mage]

there is also an ultimate end in which this reality moves towards.
Ultimate end for the universe or ultimate end for life?
Either way, neither requires an end.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

Both. Since they exist, purpose must preculde their creation and sustainence.

[`89]

Both. Since they exist, purpose must preculde their creation and sustainence.

Uhm, why? Things can exist for no reason.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

THings can exist without "your reason", but cannot exist without a purpose from their creator. On a much smaller, but paralell scale, a sand castle can only exist if someone makes it. As such with anything created - it can only exist by means of a creator.

[The_Iron_Raven]

Evil becomes an active force in people manifesting the desire for love, but not toward its ordered ends. Just a very general example - Hitler had "good" aims, he wanted to create the ideal race, but was that ordered to the right end? I think not. Evil cannot be an equal, active power "per se" like good - if so, they would cancel themselves out and reality would be impossible. Next time you have an "evil" thought or inclination, ask yourself where it comes from.

True, all HUMAN emotions are not evil, that why humans are in a sense more predminantly by "good" thatn evil. But, there are things not human, and therefore not predominantly good. Good example of this is demons, which are mentionewd in the Bible, so exist.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

Demons were created by God, and thus good. Lucifer means "lightbringer". As you recall, he rebelled against God, with a third of the angelic host with him - those are the demons. What drives them is not evil, but a lack of the good. They grasp at us, trying to get even with God for banishing them, so they try to destroy his creatures. Just think about it - if you were dating this hot chic, and she cheated on you with a friend of yours, what would happen? Your friend, whom you had a good relationship with before is now your enemy. Why? Because of a love that was taken from you.

[Havard]

Yes, even Lucifer and his cohorts have some good qualities, such as existence and intelligence, given to them by God. They just choose to misuse them.

[Chiba]

Yes, even Lucifer and his cohorts have some good qualities, such as existence and intelligence, given to them by God. They just choose to misuse them.
Satan is also very beautiful.

[Havard]

Satan is also very beautiful.

At this point, I'm sure he can appear very gruesome also.

[Chiba]

At this point, I'm sure he can appear very gruesome also.
Well of course, he can take many forms. But he is a angel still, though a fallen one.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

heh.. tell you one think, the devil wont be converting anyone to his side by appearing as a horned, bearded guy with a pitchfork and red tights - unless that's your thing :uhhuh:. He's everything you want to be.. till its too late.

[Havard]

I think the gruesome form is a tool to instill fear and doubt, which in turn wear away at Faith and Hope. By itself, it doesn't convert anyone, but it's part of the bigger picture.