WoW and EQ2 analysis from an "Uber"

[Pai Mai]

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=12663

That's the gist of how it really is.

[Blackmoore]

I guess if you like his point of view.

[Sadow]

So... basically, we should buy Half-Life 2? ;)

Considering the Bronze edition is only 40-something U.S, it would appear to be far cheaper than any of the current "new" games. I may just have to take myself up on that purchase.

Anyways, topic, right. I think he's pretty much got it down - World of Warcraft is very casual, and Everquest 2 is insanely difficult. Maybe I should just go back to Dark Age of Camelot, for, what, the fifth time? I have never found a game that has simaltaneously both held my interest for such an extended period and made me want to quit time after time after time.

World of Warcraft is interesting, but it lacks the whole edge of really building community, as far as I have found. On the other hand, Everquest 2 is too rediculously difficult for someone of my caliber. In all honesty, I do not believe I am built for this kind of game genre, yet spending so much money continuously buying new games is un-economical, whereas spending a bit of money every month for some continued enjoyment is acceptable. Still..

(Bah!)

[Azzi]

Qhue has been posting analysis of EQ on the FoH boards for more years than I can remember to count.

You can read another guys opinion without it changing your own. I respect what the guy writes. Look every MMORPG is about the grind. I agree that WoW has taken the grind out, and made it casual. But does that mean the content was dumbed down, and will get old hat fast in the end game. End game being when you hit 60. CoH had this problem, and most folks just re-rolled a new character when they got to the end.

I think he has a point, but this is only beta, and Blizz has already outlined MANY items they intend to add later.

If you're a betting man, bet on blizzard. SOE will always burn it's fan base to make a quick buck. They have the track record.

[Cell]

Qhue has been posting analysis of EQ on the FoH boards for more years than I can remember to count.

You can read another guys opinion without it changing your own. I respect what the guy writes. Look every MMORPG is about the grind. I agree that WoW has taken the grind out, and made it casual. But does that mean the content was dumbed down, and will get old hat fast in the end game. End game being when you hit 60. CoH had this problem, and most folks just re-rolled a new character when they got to the end.

I think he has a point, but this is only beta, and Blizz has already outlined MANY items they intend to add later.

If you're a betting man, bet on blizzard. SOE will always burn it's fan base to make a quick buck. They have the track record.

A few things to add:

1.) Qhue is the epidemy of Hardcore gaming. Like Vabtoo on EQlive bristlebane, Qhue will be the one playing 24/7 with only enough work hours for food and game subscription.

2.) Blizzard HAS STATED that they increased the leveling curve for beta so that testers could get through more content with more classes in a shorter amount of time. Since that was his only complaint (besides raiding type large encounters), we should be in good streads.

[Sentinel]

From playing in the stress test I did feel the levels went past a little fast. Slow it down a tad and its all good IMO.

[but76]

Can you provide a link to where Blizzard stated that they tweaked the leveling rates for Beta?

[Donsta]

They could slow it down a tad. But please, no more than that.

[Blackmoore]

They could always slow it down little bits at a time with Ninja patches, so no outrages would occur.

[Ifrit18]

Once more content gets released, it should be better.

I wonder if the guy has done stratholme with 5 people. Try doing Baron rivendare. He can be killed with 5 people of course, but he is quite challenging :).

WoW is easy at first. Once you get up to the higher levels, those 5 man instances require a bit more strategy.

[bobxii]

Even at a slower rate, the max level in WoW needs to be about 200 to make being high-level even worth it.

[kabe]

sme one said it befor, ill say it again,
we wont know intell its retail :thumbsup:

[Pogo]

for casual gamers and casual gaming

Great, he just described WoW as being perfect for 95% of MMO players, dishes are done.

This person sounds like his expectations aren't being met, and they probably never will be, by anyone, ever.

[Cell]

Great, he just described WoW as being perfect for 95% of MMO players, dishes are done.

This person sounds like his expectations aren't being met, and they probably never will be, by anyone, ever.

his point is that there are not viscous time sinks in WoW yet, as there are in everquest (the first EQlive exansion did have several good end level encounters).

Boiling down to it though, his needs wont be met because he has absolutly nothing else going for him in this life. There are people with such a mind set in many fields of recreation/practice/etc, and fortunatly, their numbers don't run high in the scheme of things.

On another note, Blizzard is looking into end game, which they are stating over and over again, and will add more content as time goes on.

As for the exp curve: It was a while back in the general Wow.com board. Have one of our testers revive the thread and perhaps we will get a blue response clearing up the issue.

[Ifrit18]

Eno or Rob Pardo, the lead designer of WoW said he is satisifed with the leveling right now.


On average it takes 192 hours or more to reach level 1 to 60.

[DeVries]

I think he really hit the nail on the head. To me, WoW felt like it would be about the sweetest single player game ever. The quests make you feel like you're making this big difference in the world, although logically you know you're not, because the world is of course static in comparison to a single-player game. I definitely felt rushed from one area to the next, although it may have been that I was simply trying to stay ahead of the competition that first day of the Stress Test.

I definitely did not feel the addictive pull that I've experienced in other MMOs, which is to say, I didn't form any lasting friendships that made me want to log in constantly. This may or may not have been the fault of WoW. In all likelihood, this was merely from the fact that we all knew that the test would end in a week, so there was no reason to start forming friendships online.

I don't have any first-hand experience with EQ2, but his article made it sound just like EQ1, which I do have experience with. There is something to be said about the masochistic format SOE uses. People form deep friendships under stress, shared suffering creates a very special form of comeraderie, something I definitely felt back in the EQ days. It may be that WoW is simply too easy, and the ability to solo if need be doesn't create that need to find and keep good friends out of necessity for a group to do anything.

While I am definitely not a masochistic gamer, there is definitely something to be said for the meaningfulness of accomplishment, the trial by fire. WoW could definitely use a ramping up of difficulty. I don't know how encounters are at higher levels, but during the Stress test, I rarely had a problem with what classes were in my group at any time. This is definitely a nice time-saving feature, not having to wait for the Priest or the Mage so you can actually go and play, but on the other hand, it does dilute the tactical elements of the game, something for which I am an unabashed [person who accepts money in return for sexual favors].

Quite obviously I've just begun reiterating a lot of his points, and even worse, I've begun rambling, so I'll wrap this up: ultimately, I'd rather have a dozen high level characters in a quality, economically represented world, than both me and my computer have sore assholes from being reamed by sadistic gameplay and hardware requirements.

[Pogo]

his point is that there are not viscous time sinks in WoW yet, as there are in everquest (the first EQlive exansion did have several good end level encounters).

I read his biggest gripe as itemization and placement, he does want levelling to be harder, but he also wants uber-only loot placement on raid encounters so his unemployment status can be clearly seen by all.

[Morphina]

Its a very viable opinion, which for some part, i think i will agree on, so EQ2 needs another year of development, which gives me atleast a year to play WoW(since i still am interested in both games) And then i should have been hooked by WoW's battlegrounds and Hero classes................
This good article forgets to tell us about the addiction of PvP which i have learned from in DAoC. So i guess that this opinion is from someone entirely into MMORPG's for the PvE part, which turns his gaze more towards EQ2

[Ifrit18]

At higher levels, Stratholme and Scholomance *do* require people with intelliegence or you will not complete the instance with 5 people.

No release date has been given on WoW. Only pushing hard to get it ready by 2004.

Right now, there are a few things that need to be worked out in WoW. Nothing ground-breaking, just need more stuff and tweaks. Time will tell.

[FlareCDE]

It's funny. I consider myself as being, or at least as having been a fairly hardcore gamer. I do little else in my free time, have no life as any might know it, and have spent many sleepless nights playing this game or that. Yet, I very much liked WoW's softer levelling curve.

The only MMORPG I've played with any significant amount of time is RO. The levelling curve is, shall we say, insane. You can get from level 1 to 50 in a day. My highest character, at level 73, could gain a single level in about 24 hours of continuous play. This is continuous grind, doing nothing but mashing the same thing over and over, or, in my case, keeping the person doing the mashing alive. There is some very neat, or so I thought, high end content in the form of guild war stuff. However, the minimum level for it is about 80, if you plan on not getting slaughtered instantly. Oh, and I played that character for about four months continuously to get where I was, too.

Having seen that side, I decided that while having a level goal ahead was ok, if that level was going to take me more than a resonable amount of time to get to, I lost interest. I ended up spending hours in RO just chatting with friends, tanking or healing their characters, and not playing for myself at all. Levelling wasn't an interest anymore.

If the "goal" of the game is, essentially, to get to "high" or maximum level, this goal needs to be feasible. The problem then, is what is feasible? For a powergamer, that could be several months of heavy play. For a casual player, it's probably more like a weeks worth. Patience is a strong factor, the other major factor being how enjoyable and rewarding the journey is. 200 meaningless levels are no better than 20 levels that go by blindingly quick.

For me, the sooner the better. I hate grind, and strongly wondered for awhile if I was barking up the wrong tree here. I enjoy multiplayer RPGs, I spent the better portion of a year playing BG2 with people online. But multiplayer non-MMO style RPGs are very rare, and online players of them rarer still.

As for the journey, questing in WoW paints the game in a whole new light. It's still the same stuff, kill this, collect that. But now there's a goal, some nice exp, an item or money, and the physical goal of finishing the quest. Oh, and lets not forget the story. I wonder if perhaps MMORPG is a bit of a misnomer for many of these games. While there's plenty of backstory on paper, websites, and NPCs you'll never bother talking to, there's not real engaging material. WoW's quests throw you into the world, immersing you with a degree impossible if all the game is is killing the same mobs over and over.

The end result is a pleasant mix. The levels come fast enough to keep me anticipating the next one. The quests give me enough material during the slumps to drive me along anyways. Is it the right mix for everyone? Obviously not. Powergamers may find they are "done" with the game a lot quicker. Unlike many of the games in the genre, WoW doesn't seem to reward players who play a lot more strongly than players who don't.

I'll be honest though. I don't like powergamers. I don't like people who put competition over fun, who are happy only when standing on top of others. Friendly rivalry is one thing, but too many powergamers take their games entirely too far, and it's their attitude that turns me off from so many games. To them, all there is is "pro" or "nub." To me, there's only friends. I'm here to play an entertaining game, not slave over a keyboard for power and posturing. I'll be doing that enough for a living. I play games to escape life, not emulate it. End result, if WoW does indeed turn off powergamers, what can I say but good riddance for bad rubbish.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

2.) Blizzard HAS STATED that they increased the leveling curve for beta so that testers could get through more content with more classes in a shorter amount of time. Since that was his only complaint (besides raiding type large encounters), we should be in good streads.

Umm.... no. In fact, they have said the complete opposite. They said that the levelling rate is exactly how they want it - and the only reason they'd change it is if something else made it faster or slower than it currently is, and then they'd only be adjusting it to bring it back into line. Do a search on the official Beta forums about the subject, look for the blue text. 'nuff said.

[Pub-O]

I think the curve is fine.

Its numbers.. It should go this fast! The level grind shoudl not excist.. No player should just do quests to get higher level!! They should quest/explore/kill for the fun of them and the rewards!

Maybe the poster in the thread has a good point.

But it seems that his issues are that there are not enouge extremely hard content.

And that some of the best items can be farmed from crappy places! Ok.. So this needs to change, but then again he makes a point!

No way that your gear should decide how skillfull you are!!! Thats just wrong..

Whats the point of having tactics, pride or sense of defeat if you lose/win in a high level instance or hectic pvp battle when you know that the only reason due to why you just was because you had/lacked does uber items, and your personal skills, tactics and stuff like that did not matter!

I think thats wrong! Items should be an important part of the game but totally over shadowing like Diablo is just wrong! Turned it into simple hack'n slash..

"haha.. i used more of my time in this game so i have better items and now i pwned you in pvp"!!!!!!

I know people just want be to go Guildwars or something, but still mates.. This is not very nice!:(


Of course we also have to consider that the poster have left before the raids came in! That means he probably havent experienced Durabillitys effect on the fast pace on moving while playing quests...

Also, I heard that no actual raid dungeons are in! Only raid groups?

I do think that personal skill should matter allot!

Cant they just increase all abillities that give 10-20% more effect(based on weap/armor/heals/hitpoints mods).. so your personal attacks/abillities becomes more powerful over the items!???

I think this is important! I think this is important because we all know the b.net kids is totallly gonna destroy this game with their much more time on their hands, if this effect will go into retail!

The channels:

OMFG PWN3D BITACH!!!!!!11111 omg u suXuXuXur0r0x0x0z lolz

And they just won while not having skill.... I just dont like that:(

WoW has promised great and many options for playing your character while in combat! Something they have said which should even apply to warriors!

[Pai Mai]

A few things to add:

1.) Qhue is the epidemy of Hardcore gaming. Like Vabtoo on EQlive bristlebane, Qhue will be the one playing 24/7 with only enough work hours for food and game subscription.

2.) Blizzard HAS STATED that they increased the leveling curve for beta so that testers could get through more content with more classes in a shorter amount of time. Since that was his only complaint (besides raiding type large encounters), we should be in good streads.

Blizzard HAS STATED multiple times now that they are fine with the current leveling speed and have no plans to change it.

On average it takes 192 hours or more to reach level 1 to 60
Yes, and that is extremely fast for a new game. It would only take a person that spends no more than four hours a day about six weeks to hit the cap. Once you hit the cap, all that's left to do is the same instance runs over and over again just for that .00000000001% item to drop since xp will mean nothing then.

Or...start an alt, which is what you are forced to do when the game does not have enough content to sustain one character.

[Vorda]

indeed, I dont know why people keep repeating that xp issue. there are several blizzard posts that say that blizzard is happy with the current xp rate.

[Donsta]

The only MMORPG I've played with any significant amount of time is RO.

Excuse my ignorance. What is RO? Ragnorak Online? :scratch:

[Mr.Sunrock]

Hmm well the perfect game does not exist... and will probebly never do ither, especily when it comes MMORPGs. But I have ben playing SOE games for some time now and realy agree with Qhue that SOE will just f*ck over the fan base in the end enyway. So I think I will give this game a chanse with WoW just becouse of that.

[Nostradamus92]

I don't understand why people absolutely want grinding and slow leveling.... Honestly, I just like to have fin while leveling, so that I dont have to log in and instantly begin slaying mobs and stuff like that.... I could go fishing, look at the auction house... play some PVP... raid, staelth around and most inportant of all, socialize with other dudes and dudeses... Once I hit 60, I'll just be able to take on more evil mobs, and higher level alliance creeps! :D

Bottom line: WoW is not made for leveling... it is made for all it's content... the stuff that makes it feel like a living world.

[Xinhuan]

I don't understand why people absolutely want grinding and slow leveling.... Honestly, I just like to have fin while leveling, so that I dont have to log in and instantly begin slaying mobs and stuff like that.... I could go fishing, look at the auction house... play some PVP... raid, staelth around and most inportant of all, socialize with other dudes and dudeses... Once I hit 60, I'll just be able to take on more evil mobs, and higher level alliance creeps! :D

Bottom line: WoW is not made for leveling... it is made for all it's content... the stuff that makes it feel like a living world.

Some people want a slightly longer leveling curve for WoW than the current speed right now... simply because the current speed is too fast. Given that all every casual gamer can reach 60 in 2 or 3 months, it diminishes the achievement any player feels on reaching level 60... after all any person can do it and within a few months. The journey is fun... but it is too easy.

Heck, I've been level 57 on my mage for 4 weeks, and I don't even have the urge to hit 60, because I know to be 60 doesn't mean anything special, it's not a big accomplishment see that 57-60 can be done within 12 hours or faster.

The other current problem is the amount of content. Yes, I think we all agree WoW is made for content, there is plenty of that at 1-60, but too few at 60 itself. This brings many complaints about an unfinished game, because without those end-game content it clearly is unfinished.

Step into a level 60's shoes. Right now, if you are a level 60, you will just log into the game, look at the auction house, chat a bit, perhaps run 1 of the 2 level 60 instances, and perhaps go gank a few people... that's it. It's a valid complaint about the lack of content, and yet it is also invalid because we all know it's still in beta.

[aartamen]

In the very worst case scenario WOW is an entertaining yet short lived game. So we'll get , have a couple of months worth of good times, beat it and quit. BFD! What's wrong with that?

[Agonistes]

I don't think this guy realizes that Blizzard is keeping a lot of this stuff behind the scenes for retail, because they don't want to show their entire hand before this hits the shelves.

They've said it time and time again.. playing through it and having odd random drops and crappy items off hard mobs, you'd think that he'd realize that sort of stuff is that way for a reason.

He says he doesn't play it anymore or that he won't play for long when he gets the retail version... but I highly doubt that's the truth.

[Nostradamus92]

Xinhuan: I agree to an extent, but about the part about it being too eay.... It's all about challenging yourself.
Take for example Neriad in Schoolamnce(sp?)... It is clearly a very challenging task for 5 people, and very time comsuming. Of course you can do it with 10 people, but it won't be half as fun, and you'll make new friendships etc.

Also, if Blizzard hurry up and get reputation and Hero status into the game, it will be a lot more intruiging.

[XenoFire]

I'm partially looking at this game from the perspective of an 'ub3r ph4t l3wt0rz' and one thing you have to remember is that the king of MMORPGs, EverQuest, was the same.

Think about EQ pre-kunark... The level cap was 50, and it wasn't that hard to hit. Once you hit 50 you had a few choices, raid naggy, raid vox, raid plane of fear, raid plane of hate, raid plane of air, and exp in lower guk.

That's 6 things to do in the end game, over and over again. I wasn't around pre-kunark (I started playing just went kunark came out), but I image getting to 50 wouldn't take THAT long.

Therefore, EQ suffered from the same problem. It was kunark that brought in the huge grind from 50-60. It was kunark that bought in a whole bunch of new raidable mobs. It was kunark that bought in epic quests, which were huge timesinks.

*EDIT* Another thing, the next expansion that came, Velious, was ONLY made for high level people. Tons of quests were added, and new zones. So, I doubt we have much to worry about. Blizzard isn't a stupid company, and they want their game to succeed. They've got an excellent record for making some of the best expansion, and plus they suppostely haven't even shown us the high end game content yet.

I have a feeling if blizzards secret high end game isn't up to par they'll be doing something similar, IE coming with an expansion that fixes most of that.

[Seraphim]

Are you kidding me? Everquest pre-Kunark was insanely hard to level. Only with the addition with later expansions that had better xp yielding zones and better items did leveling up get much easier. Not to mention, hell levels sucked.

[cmsciulli]

End result, if WoW does indeed turn off powergamers, what can I say but good riddance for bad rubbish.

Amen! Powergamers are what turned me off to the idea of MORPGs, however a number of people on these boards are changing my opinions :-)

[barbarian_bob]

Erm...about the lack of end game content, has Blizz even introduced the Epic "Life" Quests yet? When/if they do that should add a lot more to the end game content other than raids and instancing IMO.

[Pai Mai]

Some people want a slightly longer leveling curve for WoW than the current speed right now... simply because the current speed is too fast. Given that all every casual gamer can reach 60 in 2 or 3 months, it diminishes the achievement any player feels on reaching level 60... after all any person can do it and within a few months. The journey is fun... but it is too easy.

Heck, I've been level 57 on my mage for 4 weeks, and I don't even have the urge to hit 60, because I know to be 60 doesn't mean anything special, it's not a big accomplishment see that 57-60 can be done within 12 hours or faster.

The other current problem is the amount of content. Yes, I think we all agree WoW is made for content, there is plenty of that at 1-60, but too few at 60 itself. This brings many complaints about an unfinished game, because without those end-game content it clearly is unfinished.

Step into a level 60's shoes. Right now, if you are a level 60, you will just log into the game, look at the auction house, chat a bit, perhaps run 1 of the 2 level 60 instances, and perhaps go gank a few people... that's it. It's a valid complaint about the lack of content, and yet it is also invalid because we all know it's still in beta.

I completely agree with this 100%. I'm only 54 and I already have that same feeling. I simply log on to check out some of the areas that I had yet to visit and finish the trip to 60 by doing so. But I know that once I hit 60, especially with the OB coming "soon" (<see: relative) it doesn't matter anyway. And yeah, when anyone can hit 60 with one hand tied behind their back and blindfolded, it does not feel like an accomplishment at all. I would be lying if I said I didn't have fun along the way, because I did...but it was a very lonely trip. Something needs to be done about grouping or this game will flop when people realize they are paying to play a game in which 90% of it they could get from a rental or one time fee of a single player game.

I don't think this guy realizes that Blizzard is keeping a lot of this stuff behind the scenes for retail, because they don't want to show their entire hand before this hits the shelves.
Just because Blizzard has done this with some of their other games, and just because they hint that this is to be the case with WoW, that doesn't mean it's so. They have never ever done a game like this before, and already many things that they said would be in the game will not be in at retail. Too me this just seems like the classic case of "have faith...you'll see...".

Think about EQ pre-kunark... The level cap was 50, and it wasn't that hard to hit.
If you started when the game came out, and didn't have anyone giving you items or helping to PL you...yes...yes it was far harder than WoW. I've nearly hit the cap with 9 days /played and this was starting from scratch and only one or two AH items that I eventually replace with self made gear. In no way shape or form is WoW on the same difficulty curve.

[MartyrSeraph]

End result, if WoW does indeed turn off powergamers, what can I say but good riddance for bad rubbish.

Agreed! *signs the Emancipation from Jobless Lamers act*

[Pai Mai]

Agreed! *signs the Emancipation from Jobless Lamers act*
Why is it that people who play less always have this holier than thou attitude, especially when they would play just as much if they could?

[FrozenYak]

When i played lineage 1, as soon as i hit lvl 48 i stopped bothering with trying to level. I just proceeded to try and do hard hunts and siege/etc. But the thing i liked was that there was always more to accomplish. I think this level 60 block wont mean much at all as long as blizz manages to put up constant challenges/time sinks to keep us entertained. Obviously, a massive part of this is going to involve pvp, instances, and the hero classes.

What i would actually like to see is that after you hit lvl 60 you have the option to restart at lvl 1 as a hero class with a significantly harder grind to the point where it becomes difficult to get past lvl 30/40. Then make it so that a lvl 60 normal class is on par with a lvl 30-40 hero class. Make level 60 hero the top class, but make it like the lineage 1 level 99, near impossible to attain(a player lvled 24/7 is the top in the world and only around level 80 i believe). That way powergamers will always have the grind, but at the same time casual gamers can stay at 60 and still able to compete.

[niteshade6]

Well I should point out that I wouldn't exactly call somebody playing 4 hours a day every day for 3 months a casual player. They aren't quite a hardcore player, but somebody who spends all of their time after work every day playing, and much of their weekend time as well, is hardly casual.

Anyway sounds like leveling time could go up a little, but the real question is....will is still be fun if you up the time? If leveling time decreases the fun dramaticaly and only serves to give hard core gamers a reason to feel superior, then it's certainly not a good idea. But if they can increase the level time without increasing the grind, then that's fine.

[cmsciulli]

Why is it that people who play less always have this holier than thou attitude, especially when they would play just as much if they could?
Uh, sorry but gaming is a hobby for me and one of many, I might add. . . I could scrap all my other interests and all other social interactions and just sit at the computer and play games, but I choose not to. Now, if people choose to play games 24/7 then that's cool, as long as they still have good attitudes.

Which is not to say that casual gamers can't have nasty attitudes and grief others as well, because I know they can. My original comment had more to do with nasty, hard-core gaming attitudes that was keeping me from getting into this genre. Along with developers catering to those hardcore gamers, such as in EQ.

[Mastgrr]

Of opposite worlds:

The problem with EQ2 is that its is sooo hardcore in terms of its time commitment, levelling speed, and difficult path to player progression that only the most fiendishly driven players will survive to see the upper echelons of content.

The reason I don't play it anymore is because the game [World of Warcraft] has been intentionally tuned for morons. The game moves fast, so fast that if you blink you've gained a level.

[Pai Mai]

Anyway sounds like leveling time could go up a little, but the real question is....will is still be fun if you up the time?
Yes, especially if grouping gets the much needed bonus. I'm tired of only being able to group (and have it seem like it was worth the time spent) only to do an instance or some elite quest that can't be done solo. There is a difference between "casual friendly" and antisocial, and they have yet to figure that out.

[cmsciulli]

Yes, especially if grouping gets the much needed bonus. I'm tired of only being able to group (and have it seem like it was worth the time spent) only to do an instance or some elite quest that can't be done solo. There is a difference between "casual friendly" and antisocial, and they have yet to figure that out.
So you don't just group for the hell of it anymore? Why isn't grouping worth the time for you?

[Ifrit18]

Well have to group in an instance to get the best loot :P.

[Mr.Sunrock]

Hmm is it just me or do most ppl thing that WoW today is a finish product? I get that fealing when I read the coments about the game on this forum and other forums as well...

[Azzi]

EQ took me 12 months to get to lvl 50 (pre-Kunark).
Now I'm sure you can site an example of someone getting power leveled in 30 days, but 12 months was average casual.
WoW looks like it will take 4 months to get lvl 60.
That's 66% faster in WoW.

Blizz has stated that a character's level is not one of the carrot's of the game.
SOE considers leveling a carrot, and goes out of their way to slow players down.

I personally like getting all this cake, but it may make me sick come lvl 60.

[Sadow]

So you don't just group for the hell of it anymore? Why isn't grouping worth the time for you?

From the small bit I played, grouping is, largely, rather worthless, except in the case of instances or other such raiding things. I grouped with a few friends during the stress test. When I was with one friend, who was only one level above me, my experience gain was cut down by around 3/4ths. Things that normally gave 100 experience only gave around 20 experience, and our kill rate was not fast enough to make up for it.

This happens everywhere else - there is absolutely nothing beyond certain special encounters that requires a group. Leveling is so fast that there is absolutely no incentive for grouping - it's far better to just camp a spot and murder everything within range than get into a group and have about the same, or even less, effect.

To properly remedy this, grouping must become more rewarding, and leveling must become slower. If we simply increase the group experience bonus, then that does nothing except trivialize the game to an even greater extent. If we simply reduce the leveling speed, then there is even less of a reason to group, as stated above. Both must be put into conjuction with eachother to be effective.

Unfortunately, leaving the system the way it is or converting it to a more rigid formula is, invariably, going to harm the playerbase some. There is about an even split between those who would like to see a slower leveling pace and those who see it as just fine. Such is life.

[FlareCDE]

There is a huge and ever increasing schism between the "pro" mentality, and the mentality of those of us who play games for entertainment.

To powergaming "pros," the goal of the game seems to be the reward at the end of the rainbow. The prestige and accomplishment of reaching max level, having uber equipment, and being able to wipe anyone with their "uber" PvP build. The grind along the way is alternately viewed as a necessary evil, with the skill lying in finding the most efficient way to bypass it.

For more casual gamers, the goal is in the rainbow itself. Enjoy the game while playing it. Creating your own challenges, grouping with others, and doing whatever pleases you. Without regard to whether or not the game rewards you for it. Who cares if you get half experience for playing with your friend, the fun is playing with your friend, not watching some arbitrary number tick up.

For me, experience, levels, equipment, it's all a means to an end. The fun lies in the strategy, the actual playing of the game. To powergamers, the reverse seems to be true. So then, a conundrum, how to you please two idealistically opposed groups?

Answer? You don't. You can't. You'd have to make two games in one. There's already plenty of MMOs out there for the grind oriented. Personally, I have no problem seeing WoW as a game targeted to the presently ignored audience, the people who can't or don't want to put massive hours in their game to get to the enjoyment.

Not to say you can completely generalize the issue. Most people, as with all things, fall into the gray area in between. But everyone had their trends, it just takes a little soul searching to determine which you are.

As for the general dislike of powergamers, I hate the "pro > nub" attitude of them, not the group necessarily. Like I said, I was a powergamer. But I never put down people because they were new or hadn't played the game for decades worth of time. Rather I enjoyed spreading my knowledge, and smiled when the lightbulbs turned on.

[richijefe]

That analysis/review was quite weak in my opinion.

i actually like that WoW will have an easy lvlin curve, and that you can powerlvl your way up to lvl 60 in 4 weeks(ive read it is so anyways). Its really a breath of fresh air after playin lineage 2. If anyone wants a hard lvlin curve, play lineage 2, takes bout 6-7 months to reach lvl 75 playin around 20 hours per day, good luck ^^

in DaoC its fairly easy and fast to lvl up to 50, and the game is still damn fun, i mean pvpin is the best, there is TONS of lvl 50s around and it doesn make the game less fun ^_^

and im glad i will b able to solo up to 60 without probs in WoW, since i like lvlin asap. I never was much for a grind group person, yes for pvp i group its fun. But HAVIN to find a group to lvl up, never liked that. Primary reason i was a silver ranger in lineage 2. I group only for raids and for pvp.

And as far as ive read blizzard has stated that most high end content hasnt even been introduced, like raid bosses and so, and high lvl areas as well. So no way of ratin the high end game yet.

And hey if you a powergamer, you dont wanna waste ur time lookin for a grp, u wanna lvl fast. You will group at cap lvl anyhow doin raids and pvpin, so no point groupin while lvlin hehe

Basically i say dont diss the game until retail is out. And the faster you reach max lvl the faster you start pvpin ^_^ And hey there is always the accomplishment in reachin the lvl 60 before others right? ^^

FlareCDE i agree with lots of powergamers bein "pro > noob", never been like that though hehe But hey! powergamers play the game for entertainment as well, we dont play it as a job hehe




Richijefe, lvl 61 Silver Ranger on bartz, quit 4 months ago =)

[FlareCDE]

Quite the contrary, many that I've spoken to do view it exactly as a job. Even the terms they use, "pro" as in "professional" evoke the imagery of a work-like environment. They will do whatever gets them the "uber exp and drops," no matter how lacking in entertainment it is. I'm not saying they don't enjoy the process, however, only that they don't focus on it. They view their greatest accomplishments as the numbers that represent their character.

Soloing vs. grouping is another category really. It's a personal preference that's independent of whether or not you are a powergamer or casual player. Personally, I pay little attention to people who complain about the inability to solo in MMORPGS, because, to me, the whole point of playing a massively multiplayer game is grouping and playing with others.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Soloing vs. grouping is another category really. It's a personal preference that's independent of whether or not you are a powergamer or casual player. Personally, I pay little attention to people who complain about the inability to solo in MMORPGS, because, to me, the whole point of playing a massively multiplayer game is grouping and playing with others.

To me, people who 'powergame' (in this context, as in game to acquire more power & prestige nearly exclusively - through hitting max level, bragging about battling at the highest-level raids, fighting in constant PvP wars, and/or getting the best loot) miss the point of a massively multiplayer online role-playing game. However, I also respect that it is a play-style - it just is opposite of my own. Different people have different perspectives as to what this kind of game means to them. It's best to be tactful, and conscious that people have differing views, and to not belittle another person's take on the game, just because it's different than your own (something I myself have to constantly be wary of as well). Honestly, I'm not much into the roleplaying aspect of these games - because I don't see them as really providing enough incentive to roleplay. However, I do like the social interactions with people, while having a fun game to play around on. everything has it's place in these games. Don't lose perspective and assume that everyone plays these games even remotely the same way - or even that the majority of people play the same way - despite how loud people may get about it.

[SpAm_BuStA]

you can tell that guy is for EQ2 and hates wow, and i found him annoying

[niteshade6]

Regarding grouping, from what I've read I wonder if part is the problem might be that difficult monsters aren't worth all that much more then easy monsters. In other games, a monster that is very hard to beat might be worth (and these numbers are a very rough estimate) 10-20 times the experience of a monster who is easy to beat. In WoW, it seems the difficult monster is worth at most double the experience, and not even always that.

This means there is less incentive to team up to take down the big monsters. In fact it probably means there is less incentive to fight big monsters in the first place.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Regarding grouping, from what I've read I wonder if part is the problem might be that difficult monsters aren't worth all that much more then easy monsters. In other games, a monster that is very hard to beat might be worth (and these numbers are a very rough estimate) 10-20 times the experience of a monster who is easy to beat. In WoW, it seems the difficult monster is worth at most double the experience, and not even always that.

This means there is less incentive to team up to take down the big monsters. In fact it probably means there is less incentive to fight big monsters in the first place.


Not in EQLive, they aren't - at least, according to my friends who still play it, and from my own experiences in the past. The thing is, I'll have to agree - there isn't necessarily enough incentive to group. However, thankfully, Blizzard doesn't want to make soloing impossible. There are ways I'm sure they are working on to improve the interest in grouping. However, right now, in beta, it's just not in the game yet. Maybe there's more elite quests and such to be rolled out on release, and the game'll be tweaked and improved after release, most likely drawing more interest to grouping if it really proves to be a problem. From what I've seen right now, however, there's more incentive/interest in battling elite creatures with groups in WoW, than there is incentive to even raid in what I remember when I played EQLive.

[Squarebob Spongepants]

Speaking of quests. Is there any way to tell if a quest is regular or elite before you accept it?

_______________________________

The game is ready for lunch.

[SpiritWalker]

The only MMORPG I've played with any significant amount of time is RO. The levelling curve is, shall we say, insane. You can get from level 1 to 50 in a day. My highest character, at level 73, could gain a single level in about 24 hours of continuous play. This is continuous grind, doing nothing but mashing the same thing over and over, or, in my case, keeping the person doing the mashing alive. There is some very neat, or so I thought, high end content in the form of guild war stuff. However, the minimum level for it is about 80, if you plan on not getting slaughtered instantly. Oh, and I played that character for about four months continuously to get where I was, too.

Having seen that side, I decided that while having a level goal ahead was ok, if that level was going to take me more than a resonable amount of time to get to, I lost interest. I ended up spending hours in RO just chatting with friends, tanking or healing their characters, and not playing for myself at all. Levelling wasn't an interest anymore.
..I still sometimes wake up screaming.. that game is evil.. EVIL! My highest character was a lvl 89 assasin, with the most uber equip you could think of. Now this was only on a private server with increased droprates and increased exp rates, and even that was hell. I couldn't begin to imagine how many hours I have spend playing that game. I remember spending 3 days (in my vacation) playing from when I woke up at 1pm, only stopping for dinner, and then going on till 5am, and only gaining 1 level.. *cries*..*sniffs*..

Anyway, call me newb or something, because I still had trouble with soloing certain (most) quests by myself. A lot of good quests that give the good exp are the elite quests and there are a lot of those and you certainly cannot do these on your own if you're not 6 or 7 lvls too high for this quest, at least I couldn't.

So hearing WoW is easy compared to EQ2, I don't even want to know what kind of masochistic game that is..

[niteshade6]

Not in EQLive, they aren't - at least, according to my friends who still play it, and from my own experiences in the past. The thing is, I'll have to agree - there isn't necessarily enough incentive to group. However, thankfully, Blizzard doesn't want to make soloing impossible. There are ways I'm sure they are working on to improve the interest in grouping. However, right now, in beta, it's just not in the game yet. Maybe there's more elite quests and such to be rolled out on release, and the game'll be tweaked and improved after release, most likely drawing more interest to grouping if it really proves to be a problem. From what I've seen right now, however, there's more incentive/interest in battling elite creatures with groups in WoW, than there is incentive to even raid in what I remember when I played EQLive.

EQLive is the console version of EQ? I've never actualy played that. But in regular EQ, I'd certainly guess that a dark red monster is worth many times the experience of a light green one. And I know that was the case in FFXI since they actualy told you the experience amounts there.

[Willow]

If anyone who is in the WoW beta is interested, I am in the EQ2 beta, and would be willing to "trade" accounts for just a day to a few days (whatever is agreed upon) to share experiences and satisfy your curiosity. This person must be trustworthy enough not to sign-in after agreed time is up and to agree not to play certain character(s) on account. I will promise the same.

Please contact me if you are interested :)

*If this post is "illegal" please just delete it, and accept my appologies.*

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

EQLive is the console version of EQ? I've never actualy played that. But in regular EQ, I'd certainly guess that a dark red monster is worth many times the experience of a light green one. And I know that was the case in FFXI since they actualy told you the experience amounts there.

EQLive is EQ (called such based off the website for the game). EQ:OA is EQ for consoles. And - in WoW - a higher-level creature is worth much more experience than a lower-level one. However, they boosted the abilities for the creatures in each successive expansion since Velious, so that groups that once were able to take on red-con creatures (plural), can now maybe take on a blue-con creature - meaning you got much less XP. With groups in WoW, you are able to take on higher level creatures than if you were soloing. There just is no goofy and pointless "/con" command like EQ had (a hold-over from MUD's) - instead you are told what the creature's level is precisely.

[niteshade6]

EQLive is EQ (called such based off the website for the game). EQ:OA is EQ for consoles. And - in WoW - a higher-level creature is worth much more experience than a lower-level one. However, they boosted the abilities for the creatures in each successive expansion since Velious, so that groups that once were able to take on red-con creatures (plural), can now maybe take on a blue-con creature - meaning you got much less XP. With groups in WoW, you are able to take on higher level creatures than if you were soloing. There just is no goofy and pointless "/con" command like EQ had (a hold-over from MUD's) - instead you are told what the creature's level is precisely.

Ah, fair enough I hadn't played EQ in a long time. But I'd still guess that if your group is only capable of taking on blue monsters, they you'd do even worse solo. And the people I still talk to who play still talk about taking on dark reds.

From how I have heard people talk in WoW, a creature 1 level below you might give you 80 xp, while a much tougher creature 5 levels above you might give you say 130 xp. So while it's more, it doesn't justify the trouble. Maybe that's wrong or has been changed. Certainly getting a group 5 people to take it on and getting 25 xp, wouldn't be very impressive.

[Jawelik]

So many people talking about not bothering to reach level 60, because its not hard enough. It doesn't feel like enough of an accomplishment... What a crock! You people have clearly been corrupted by the masochistic gameplay of past MMOs. The goal is not level 60, level 60 is trivial! Something everyone can achieve! The goal is having fun! Level 60 is not the pinacle! Opening the Dark portal is the pinacale! Achieving Hero status is the pinacle! Defeating the hardest raid in the game, with fifty of your guildmates, that's the pinacle! Level 60 simply doesn't matter much.

Why people want this game to be harder than it is fun, I will never understand. I like what Blizzard is doing, and I'm certain WoW, like so many of their other games, will be a hit for many years after its release.

[Squarebob Spongepants]

Yeah, seriously. Lots of people say the game doesn't really start until you hit the level cap. I take it that those aren't the same people who are complaining about WoW being 'too easy'.

I'm the type who likes to start multiple characters and try a little bit of everything. If the game is a masochistsic grindfest then I'll just feel like I'm not getting anywhere if I start multiple characters. I think that's the exact reason a lot of people only have one or two characters in those kind of MMORPGs. The grind is simply too mind-numbingly boring that you don't want to suffer throu it more than once.

The fact that you've hit the level cap in such a game only proves one thing really - that you have more free time than the average gamer. Just hitting that cap is no accomplishment in my mind. It is after all only a matter of time.

_______________________________

The game is ready for lunch.

[Pai Mai]

EQLive is EQ (called such based off the website for the game). EQ:OA is EQ for consoles. And - in WoW - a higher-level creature is worth much more experience than a lower-level one. However, they boosted the abilities for the creatures in each successive expansion since Velious, so that groups that once were able to take on red-con creatures (plural), can now maybe take on a blue-con creature - meaning you got much less XP. With groups in WoW, you are able to take on higher level creatures than if you were soloing. There just is no goofy and pointless "/con" command like EQ had (a hold-over from MUD's) - instead you are told what the creature's level is precisely.
Just how much EQ did you actually play, or what kind of groups did you do...random pickup groups? Blue cons are for the most part solo fodder. When you are in a group you go for even - yellow - red, up until you surpass them in level anyway. It also depends on which expansion you are playing in...Luclin had mobs that were relatively weak dps but had massive amounts of life, and Planes of Power was the opposite...massive dps but relatively low hps.

Anyway, in regards to WoW, melee classes are at a default 25% miss rate on mobs equal to their level, and after +2 levels or so (not sure of the exact number but it's really close) it ramps up to 50%. For the melee class it is better to fight mobs -2 levels and just kill non stop. Casters do not suffer this as much and can take on mobs +3 levels with relative ease and sometimes encounter the fluke mega resisto mob. Also a mob that is +2 levels higher than you does not give out that much more xp than one of equal level. So if you were to group and go after mobs that would make it worthwhile, you would have to fight mobs +5 your level...and for all intents and purposes a melee would almost be worthless in that situation, except for a warriors taunt. So you would basically have the casters doing all of the dps and getting quite a few resists due to it being +5..not worth the effort at all.

Lots of people say the game doesn't really start until you hit the level cap. I take it that those aren't the same people who are complaining about WoW being 'too easy'.
Those are the people who are simply speculating. There isn't anything *right now* that backs this up.

[Xinhuan]

So many people talking about not bothering to reach level 60, because its not hard enough. It doesn't feel like enough of an accomplishment... What a crock! You people have clearly been corrupted by the masochistic gameplay of past MMOs. The goal is not level 60, level 60 is trivial! Something everyone can achieve! The goal is having fun! Level 60 is not the pinacle! Opening the Dark portal is the pinacale! Achieving Hero status is the pinacle! Defeating the hardest raid in the game, with fifty of your guildmates, that's the pinacle! Level 60 simply doesn't matter much.

Why people want this game to be harder than it is fun, I will never understand. I like what Blizzard is doing, and I'm certain WoW, like so many of their other games, will be a hit for many years after its release.

Yeah, seriously. Lots of people say the game doesn't really start until you hit the level cap. I take it that those aren't the same people who are complaining about WoW being 'too easy'.

You forget that all those level 60-content isn't in the game yet. Since there is nothing at the end of the journey, many people are refusing to reach that end, myself included.

It's nothing about masochistic gameplay of past MMOs. It's simply that level 60 has nothing in it to entice players to reach it, until they add in the raids, battlefields and other cool things.

[Jawelik]

You forget that all those level 60-content isn't in the game yet. Since there is nothing at the end of the journey, many people are refusing to reach that end, myself included.

It's nothing about masochistic gameplay of past MMOs. It's simply that level 60 has nothing in it to entice players to reach it, until they add in the raids, battlefields and other cool things.

I get that. What I'm saying, is that I have no doubt Blizzard will have a buttload of high level content upon release. My previous post was based upon that assumption. I have confidence in Blizzard, and their innate ability to make games that don't get boring for a very long time. And with a monthly fee from their players, they'll be able to offer even more! I can't wait, must play now!! :flip:

[Squarebob Spongepants]

@ Pai Mai and Xinhuan:

Yes, I know that much of the end game content hasn't been added yet. Blizzard have said that most of it will be added when the game is released. For example, Onyxia is the only raid content that will be added during Beta. Naturally, we're all hoping that they'll keep their promises regarding this content. Right?

_______________________________

The game is ready for lunch.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Just how much EQ did you actually play, or what kind of groups did you do...random pickup groups? Blue cons are for the most part solo fodder. When you are in a group you go for even - yellow - red, up until you surpass them in level anyway. It also depends on which expansion you are playing in...Luclin had mobs that were relatively weak dps but had massive amounts of life, and Planes of Power was the opposite...massive dps but relatively low hps.

3 years, with the last year of that being pretty much all I did - logging in far too many hours than I'd like to think about. I left the game shortly after POP was released, and never bothered with that expansion. Velious had started the process of mis-conned creatures - creatures that did more damage, and had more hit points than any other creatures of their type on the world (Kunark & Old World) - mainly to compensate for the ever-increasingly-imbalanced insane power of the items the game provided. Creatures had their hit points bolstered even moreso in Luclin, supposedly to counter the increased power of the new items, as well as the new AA system (of course, for the most part, to get the items which this was counterbalancing against, you'd basically just have to deal with the increased damage to get to that point where you might get an item, or you have to have been raiding everything, and basically been in a so-called "uberguild" or one of the "wannabe" ones and have raided a ton. POP did the damage increase, and it just kept escalating. All in all, it produced the abomination that the game is today.

What kind of groups? With my Monks originally, I'd have groups form around me. With my Beastlord, I'd more or less avoid groups, unless I was bored, then easily find one among any friends I had, since they all liked me around. I had raided like mad for the longest time - and found every single one of them to be a waste of time, and completely pointless - organization of the raid, forming of the raid, that whole process drove me nuts. The idiocy of people who felt the need to spout off at everything, the people who seemed to enjoy starting fights. The idiots who'd never pay attention. The list goes on. I've dealt with one or two raids that went "flawlessly" - as far as from what I've garnered from how raids are supposed to run, and it still nausiated me. Partly because I detest large crowds - period. I can handle a handful of people in an area, but when 30 or 80 people are all crowded together to all do some infintessimally small part in a raid, boredom reigns supreme, which results in some very stupid, undisciplined crap.

Anyway, in regards to WoW, melee classes are at a default 25% miss rate on mobs equal to their level, and after +2 levels or so (not sure of the exact number but it's really close) it ramps up to 50%. For the melee class it is better to fight mobs -2 levels and just kill non stop. Casters do not suffer this as much and can take on mobs +3 levels with relative ease and sometimes encounter the fluke mega resisto mob. Also a mob that is +2 levels higher than you does not give out that much more xp than one of equal level. So if you were to group and go after mobs that would make it worthwhile, you would have to fight mobs +5 your level...and for all intents and purposes a melee would almost be worthless in that situation, except for a warriors taunt. So you would basically have the casters doing all of the dps and getting quite a few resists due to it being +5..not worth the effort at all.

Point taken, I withdraw my statement otherwise, as I was going on speculation, and wasn't even 100% certian that I was correct in it.

[Sadow]

I believe the problem with the whole idea that the game gets fun once you get to 60 is that I do not necessarily want to wait until then to begin having fun - it is a lot like the old City of Heroes beta boards, where there were many cries of how boring the game was, only to be rebutted with "The game picks up after 20, just wait." I do not want to have to bore myself to death to start having fun!

[Pai Mai]

@ Pai Mai and Xinhuan:

Yes, I know that much of the end game content hasn't been added yet. Blizzard have said that most of it will be added when the game is released. For example, Onyxia is the only raid content that will be added during Beta. Naturally, we're all hoping that they'll keep their promises regarding this content. Right?
Yes, but cynical/jaded people can't seem to think that way. :uhhuh:

[Jawelik]

I believe the problem with the whole idea that the game gets fun once you get to 60 is that I do not necessarily want to wait until then to begin having fun - it is a lot like the old City of Heroes beta boards, where there were many cries of how boring the game was, only to be rebutted with "The game picks up after 20, just wait." I do not want to have to bore myself to death to start having fun!

hear hear! I couldn't get what that guy said in his article. WoW was wicked fun, but it wasn't hard enough? Who cares as long as its wicked fun? And there is bound to be plenty of hard stuff in there too.

[Squarebob Spongepants]

Yes, but cynical/jaded people can't seem to think that way. :uhhuh:
Hey, I'm a cynic too. It's just that Blizzard doesn't have the same kind of track record as SOE, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt :lol:

_______________________________

The game is ready for lunch.

[aartamen]

Speaking of quests. Is there any way to tell if a quest is regular or elite before you accept it?

_______________________________

The game is ready for lunch.

I don't remember but think so. But if you don't like the quest you can abandon it and be absolutely none worse for wear. You definitely can tell if a quest is Elite once it is in your quest book.

Also you know how hard is the quest given your current level. Which means that if you run around not doing some quests they change colors indicatin loss of dificulty.

[Pietoro]

<<For more casual gamers, the goal is in the rainbow itself. Enjoy the game while playing it. Creating your own challenges, grouping with others, and doing whatever pleases you. Without regard to whether or not the game rewards you for it. Who cares if you get half experience for playing with your friend, the fun is playing with your friend, not watching some arbitrary number tick up.>>

Quoted for truthery.
The issue here should be about -content-, not the number next to your character portrait being too quick to go up. That number is meaningless, what -matters- is the variety of activities you can do at any given time, regardless of level. You know, the stuff that makes it -fun-

[TheOgreMan]

My friend's dad is the leader of the FoH guild (I do believe; if he isn't he is at least really high rank). From what I know of them in real life you do not want their opinion to influence your own. They are great gamers, power gamers, but nothing else.

[The Romulans]

Xinhuan: I agree to an extent, but about the part about it being too eay.... It's all about challenging yourself.
Take for example Neriad in Schoolamnce(sp?)... It is clearly a very challenging task for 5 people, and very time comsuming. Of course you can do it with 10 people, but it won't be half as fun, and you'll make new friendships etc.

It'd be nice to be rewarded for challenging yourself. So not only do you have the satisfaction of beating the instance with the minimum amount of people, you get rewarded for it as well (more than just the small XP bonus of having less people).

Perhaps the drops are stronger with less players (depending on how difficult the instance is). But if you really want to just finish it, you can always Zerg it with 10 players. Hell, it'd be cool for there to be some sort of viewable "hall of fame" where players get entered into for completing these instances with 5 people because it really is that difficult to complete these instances with the minimum players.

Much like playing Hard difficulty, you can decide how many players you will bring along... if you want it easier (but less rewarding) take more people.

[FlareCDE]

SpiritWalker - The legit RO servers are 2/2/1 by PS standards, if I remember correctly. That is, 2x base and job exp, and 1x drops. Not sure what the exact specs on your PS was, but many of them are 4x to 10x. I actually saw an amusing image once of how much experience each level needs on a graph. The last level takes as much experience as the first 96, if I remember correctly. It's sick.

Xlorep DarkHelm - I full respect other's playstyles so long as they don't interfere with my own. IOW, I will always hate griefers, people who have fun terrorizing others should be shot in the stomach and left to die. But soloers and legit powergamers don't bother me in the least. I'm merely trying to point out the difference between the two, which is a basic opposition in how they get enjoyment out of the game.

---

I thought they were limiting instances to no raid groups now anyways? If they haven't, they should. There should be an intended number of people for each instance, and a cap. I thought thats how they were doing it though.

[Ifrit18]

You can't complete quests that involve something with an instance using a raid group.

Example: Can't loot Baron Rivendare head when in a group of 6+ people.

[Incite_Riots]

Anything written by any FoH member is not worth paying attention to beyond laughing.

[SpiritWalker]

SpiritWalker - The legit RO servers are 2/2/1 by PS standards, if I remember correctly. That is, 2x base and job exp, and 1x drops. Not sure what the exact specs on your PS was, but many of them are 4x to 10x. I actually saw an amusing image once of how much experience each level needs on a graph. The last level takes as much experience as the first 96, if I remember correctly. It's sick.
I know man, getting to lvl 99 from lvl 98 on the server I played on I believe you had to kill Baphomet like 100 times.. on your own.. reachable only for the overpowered Hunters, but that's going off-topic :p

[Mendaveth]

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=12663

That's the gist of how it really is.

I am sure the guy who wrote that knows EXACTLY how many sheets constitute a roll of toilet paper.

[Flaidd]

I am sure the guy who wrote that knows EXACTLY how many sheets constitute a roll of toilet paper.
HAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

Fecking brilliant! Nice one, Mend. I couldn't have said it better myself.

So, WoW isn't the place for career gamers. Good riddance, in my eyes. I'd rather have a 60 in 6 months and actually be ABLE to play the high-end **** as a casual gamer, than never be able to see some of that stuff, because I don't have 100 hours a week to sink into gaming.

You can keep EQ2. So I'm a moron, but I'm going WoW, and WoW alone. I've wasted enough of my life on Sony products.

Surly old moron, out.

[OlG-fr]

Amongst other things there is a quite specific content they haven’t released yet, Hero Classes. We don’t know yet how they will work out, of course. But didn’t Blizz clearly state that they wanted the cap level to be attainable for everyone, included Joe the casual gamer? And didn’t they state that Hero Classes wouldn’t be for everyone.

I’m not in the beta so wouldn’t comment on how things are, but I’m betting they intend Hero Classes to be some time sink high level content.

Well I should point out that I wouldn't exactly call somebody playing 4 hours a day every day for 3 months a casual player. They aren't quite a hardcore player, but somebody who spends all of their time after work every day playing, and much of their weekend time as well, is hardly casual.
So true

Still that group problem annoys me. I really like to be able to solo and can’t stand a game where I have to stand LFG before I can actually play. But the best rewarding thing in a MMORPG is imho a good teamwork. So I really hope WoW won’t push that away.


Anyway, to someone who didn’t play WoW or EQ2 Qhue’s post sounds like it has some valid points. But I find it pretty much pro EQ2 sounding, because he just completely passed the whole PvP aspect. No surprises here, there won’t be any in EQ2. Would you talk of DAOC without mentioning all its RvR aspect? That would be flawed.

Something else, WoW is for morons because it’s fast paced? Being able to sink hours/days/months into a game define peoples intelligence?
I don’t want to sounds like a moron here but I tend to consider than a person trying convincing others than spending hours on a MMORPG require skill or intelligence is ****ed up. Playing EQ doesn’t require skill or intelligence. It’s not a fps, it’s not a rts. At best it’s a management game to a lesser extend. The only thing that MMORPGs require when talking about reaching high end goals is perseverance. So please stop trying to make it sounds like gold, because it’s in fact really cheap.

[GreenArmadillo]

It's sad that this guy took so much time to craft such a detailed analysis (if not necessarily up-to-date, or he'd know that Blizzard is actively FIXING the instance shortcuts he gripes of, the whole point of holding a beta in the first place) but can't make his point without name calling.

[Azzi]

The main complaint is that by allowing folks to solo 1-60, by the time they get to the point of needing to group/raid they haven't developed the necessary skills.

At high levels you will just need to be very selective on who you group/raid with.

I'd rather have an extra crop of idiots at the higher levels than be forced to group levels 1-60. Yes it will be hard to crash course a lot of these folks.

I personally solo and group with my limited beta play, and grouping is always more fun, but I reserve the right to solo.

It works...

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Xlorep DarkHelm - I full respect other's playstyles so long as they don't interfere with my own. IOW, I will always hate griefers, people who have fun terrorizing others should be shot in the stomach and left to die. But soloers and legit powergamers don't bother me in the least. I'm merely trying to point out the difference between the two, which is a basic opposition in how they get enjoyment out of the game.

You also provided your own opinion on the subject, I provided a rebutal with my own opinion on the subject as well.

[Solaquin]

Interesting post, and while there is a little bias evident, he is straightforward about it. You know that he is coming from the perspective of a hardcore gamer, and you read it with that in mind. On to the commentary.

It looks like the author of the article stopped playing before Blizzard made it so that you can't get credit for quests if you take a raid into a group instance. That change might affect his opinion of the difficulty for those areas.

I agree with him that leveling is too fast, for a reason that has been mostly glossed over in this thread so far. The content. In ST I was leveling so fast that I frequently had quests turning black in my log (meaning that they would give minimal exp) despite the fact that I didn't grind exp at all. I basically only fought mobs related to my open quests, and I found myself abandoning quests simply because they wouldn't give me much anymore. A somewhat slower pace would have let me experience more of that content without having to accept a minimal reward. I also agree with the argument that the high levels should come with a sense of accomplishment, but that's been hashed out plenty in this thread so I won't go on about it.

The rapid pace of leveling does worry me a bit. It means that Blizzard doesn't have much time to get a significant amount of end-game content in. All the experience of previous MMOs says that it is hard to keep players from getting bored once they hit max level; new challenges and new content are generally gobbled up faster than they are produced. With max level happening sooner, Blizzard is under much more pressure to deliver lots of things to do once you hit level 60. I hope they're up to it.

The item placement issue may be a valid argument, but is one that is likely to be addressed. If something too easy gives too powerful a drop, Blizzard is likely to deal with that balance issue. The only potential worry here is the release-date pressure which may push a lot of the balance issues to the back burner.

Hell, it'd be cool for there to be some sort of viewable "hall of fame" where players get entered into for completing these instances with 5 people because it really is that difficult to complete these instances with the minimum players.

A very basic thing along this line that FFXI had, was when you did a boss fight (which was instanced) it recorded the time it took you to complete it, and told you your time at the end. It also told you what the record time was, and whether you had beaten it or not.

[red.13]

What worries me is the unknown future (i.e. high-end content). If we only had known what Blizz had prepared for us we would be calm ;). Hell I will play 2-4h a day so (as someone stated 196h to get to the 60lvl) I assume that I will achieve the max level after ~3,5-1,75 months. I know, I know - we will gat some superb stuff after the release, but the hell I want lvl gaining to last longer. Im not a hardcore player but please, maybe 250h? Then it would take ~4,64-2,23 months. Im mad I know :flip:. Ofc I want also grouping to be more rewarding, but this and many other things has been said before. Blizz, oh Blizz I put my tust in you!

[Bearcub]

Looking forward to WOW even more since i have been in EQ beta. EQ does have more and it needs it. It is call Ever Quest for a reason. From running around for an hour looking for a character, to losing my body at death and having no clue where to find it, well a clue but I walked right by it several times. To trying to find the critters I am supposed to kill, it is just to much fun.

On the upside I really do enjoy the battles when I finnally get to that pnt.

Now Wow is all about RVR in the end, and that gives me a purpose to level and get stronger. I like the progression and game play. Some things are simplified but that is a beutifull thing in my mind. Complex PVE go for EQ2, Fun game play go for WOW. Ill take WOW.

[Cell]

Amongst other things there is a quite specific content they haven’t released yet, Hero Classes. We don’t know yet how they will work out, of course. But didn’t Blizz clearly state that they wanted the cap level to be attainable for everyone, included Joe the casual gamer? And didn’t they state that Hero Classes wouldn’t be for everyone.

I’m not in the beta so wouldn’t comment on how things are, but I’m betting they intend Hero Classes to be some time sink high level content.


So true

Still that group problem annoys me. I really like to be able to solo and can’t stand a game where I have to stand LFG before I can actually play. But the best rewarding thing in a MMORPG is imho a good teamwork. So I really hope WoW won’t push that away.


Anyway, to someone who didn’t play WoW or EQ2 Qhue’s post sounds like it has some valid points. But I find it pretty much pro EQ2 sounding, because he just completely passed the whole PvP aspect. No surprises here, there won’t be any in EQ2. Would you talk of DAOC without mentioning all its RvR aspect? That would be flawed.

Something else, WoW is for morons because it’s fast paced? Being able to sink hours/days/months into a game define peoples intelligence?
I don’t want to sounds like a moron here but I tend to consider than a person trying convincing others than spending hours on a MMORPG require skill or intelligence is ****ed up. Playing EQ doesn’t require skill or intelligence. It’s not a fps, it’s not a rts. At best it’s a management game to a lesser extend. The only thing that MMORPGs require when talking about reaching high end goals is perseverance. So please stop trying to make it sounds like gold, because it’s in fact really cheap.

Beautiful. True in every regard. My ale :drink:

in addition, as the game goes gold, Blizzard will get a real sense of how much high end they will need and how serious it must be. To judge a game's high end content based on CB is pure idiocy.

[gankistkahn]

I do support the idea of slower leveling due to the fact that it lets you spend more time with 1 group of people rather than having people fall behind you, or blaze passed you.

But maybe that's what blizz intends hero classes to be, if so I hope they're done by the time I would hit 60.

[GruntReflex]

I have not had the privilege of playing the Wow beta, and can't wait for the OB. Based on all I've read, WoW has more of what will keep me in a game than EQ2, and this thread has been talking about those things. Thought I'd add my two cents.

My first real experience with MMORPGs was DAoC. I dabbled at Everquest, and was extremely frustrated by the game. When DAoC came out, I finally 'got' the idea of guilds, grouping, and working together as a team. RvR made grouping a requirement, and seeing how making mistakes as a group member only made me better at it, and I tended to create toons who were group support characters, such as Bards.

But life has changed with having a kid, and working a lot of hours. I could never level much beyond 30 in DAoC, always starting new toons to keep things fresh. But, with limited time, once the kill tasks ran out at level 20, I ran out of steam with my character. Not enough time to group. Now, when I had time to do it, I loved grouping, and I can recall many late nights playing DAoC where the groups I was in were great and in sync, and were mature about the gameplay. But the major problem for me now is being able to play for an extended time, and often waiting just for a group to get together would take longer than I had to spend. Once the group got together, I would often have to leave early, and often the group formed because I was involved to support them. I hated to do that, but what could I do except shift to a more solo play style?

I have read in so many posts how WoW seems to favor soloing, or at least encourages it by providing an experience which is not as dependent on grouping to level. I also can sense the frustration of those who love grouping, but are often grouped with people who have no clue how to group, or are too immature to make it worthwhile. To be honest, unless I was in a guild group where we all knew each other in DAoC, there were always others who would step in and be completely clueless about grouping. I am certain that Blizzard will continue to beef up content that requires grouping, but I also understand why they are providing an experience that will embrace a larger audience of people, much like myself, who want to have fun, even if we only have 20 minutes to play. At the same time, when those of us with little time to invest get the occasional 4 hours on a weekend, there will be something to do there as well. And if that means we may suck at grouping for awhile until we get it right, well, that is the nature of these games in general, I think.

The only real issue is that in DAoC, or I suspect Everquest, someone at level 40 or 50 had to be VERY GOOD at grouping to get there, whereas in WoW, it sounds like that may not be the case. If so, I suspect that grouping experience needs to be measured by other things, and maybe Blizzard can come up with an awards system or other indication reflecting hours in groups, or time spent as group leader, etc. as a way of rewarding grouping experience and show others that someone has a decent grouping background.

At the same time, as much as I've heard about this problem in WoW, do you think it will be come less of a problem once beta shifts to final release?

I wonder about beta environments, and the nature of gameplay there. I have not had the privilege of being the WoW beta, but I have been in other betas, and I know that how I play betas, and how I play released games, tends to be different.

In betas, I know my character will get wiped at some point, or feel pressure to rush through things to experience as much as I can before things change. Relationships with others are tentative, since people tend to create new characters more frequently. Unless I know others in RL I am playing with, my 'friends' list needs constant maintenance to keep up with them. The beta window is usually short term, and I tend to run around a lot more and try to level more to try new things. Guilds/clans in betas strike me as not always being as stable, and I don't have the time to keep track of who is what new toon now since I am not on as much. At least with established guilds, there are always folks who retain their main characters, and changes tend to be less frequent so people in the guild are not complete strangers if you pop in a week later.

There will be more people who like to craft and chat and group, all because the environment and server are stable, and the rush to achieve other goals are not as pressured. Instead of rushing through content to avoid changes, they now take their time a bit more. I know as I play WoW, I will take time to check everything out, get some grouping experience, play all the quests I can get my hands on, and after awhile, respin an alt to experience new content, while continuing to play my main.

I just wonder if the concerns about soloing emphasis in WoW is just betraying the fact that WoW is the only MMORPG that allows casual and serious gamers the opportunity to enjoy an experience, to be 'uber' together, but at the same time providing content which being good at grouping or soloing is essential. It is encouraging the "crossover" of soloing to grouping that Blizzard needs to address, and I know they will. In the meantime, I feel that there is finally an MMORPG that offers me the best of both worlds if I chose to enjoy them, instead of discriminating against me because I have a life outside my PC.

[Jawelik]

Great post, GruntReflex, you bring up many good points. I may fit into the category of someone who plays more than casually, but I still don't want to have to wait around for a group to start playing the game. Though grouping sounds insanely fun, and I will definitely be doing a lot of it once I make a few friends online, I think its good that its not a necessity in WoW.