Kerry Concedes

[Dementor]

It's over folks. Kerry made the call to the Bush camp, he'll speak at 1:00, and Bush will speak at three.

Me, I'm just glad the post-election remained civil.

God bless America; let's get on with our lives now.

[Xolarus]

I am very pleased with this outcome :D

[Hydro]

I am very pleased with this outcome :D

I hope your pleased when America is driven into the ground.

[Andarcel]

I am very pleased with this outcome :D
Sometime, if I can summon the energy through the suffocating ennui of despair I'm shrouded in, I'll put up a list of what a second Bush presidency would produce judging from the results of his first term. Hint: 600 billion deficit by 2008, just for starters.

[powermongor]

I hope your pleased when America is driven into the ground.

Hydro, I assure you that I felt that the same thing could have been said had Kerry won. And I reassure you that it is a very good thing that Bush won and Keryr lost.

I know that alot of people are very upset right now, and I can understand that you really believed in someone and they did not get as far as you wanted them to. I hope that you all have a personal faith in God, it is a very powerful thing, and will provide solace in this time.

The real challenge now, is to not sit on the sidelines for the next four years, but to try to be a part of this administration and make a better country for us all.

[Father Jack]

The number one issue for Bush voters was 'Moral Values'. Its absolutely unbelieveable to me. We are at War, there is a growing class divide, our civil liberties are evaporating and our economy is in crisis, a president couldn't have a worse 4 years. And the most important issue to Bush voters was that they think hes the better Christian.

This country is in the sh.ite and we have soldiers dying in Iraq and the biggest issue is g.ay mairrage.


I am so frightened for the direction this country has taken.

[Hydro]

The number one issue for Bush voters was 'Moral Values'. Its absolutely unbelieveable to me. We are at War, there is a growing class divide, our civil liberties are evaporating and our economy is in crisis, a president couldn't have a worse 4 years. And the most important issue to Bush voters was that they think hes the better Christian.

This country is in the sh.ite and we have soldiers dying in Iraq and the biggest issue is g.ay mairrage.


I am so frightened for the direction this country has taken.

I agree. People try to "comfort" Kerry voters by telling us to get involved and help the administration out, and to be happy that a good Christian is in office.
I consider myself a very moral person, I am dedicating my life to helping others, and I believe in God. I am against abortion, against *** marriage, and pro-death penalty.
I am, also, smart enough to realize that my personal views on these matters, or the president's views on these matters, should never become law.
This is the land of the free, where morals are different for different people, and everyone is not a Christian. Bush is trying to make his values into law, and I think this will be our downfall.

(Not to mention all of his other horrible policies which I outlined in another thread)


That being said, McCain 2004 !

[Drakeon]

I think your all acting like drama queens.

Bush won, The world is NOT going to end. Despite how many of you think it will, it's going to survive just like it did for the last 4 years, and the 4 years before that. You may not be happy with the outcome, but your all acting like doomsayers.

[Hydro]

I think your all acting like drama queens.

Bush won, The world is NOT going to end. Despite how many of you think it will, it's going to survive just like it did for the last 4 years, and the 4 years before that. You may not be happy with the outcome, but your all acting like doomsayers.

That's probably what the French said before Napolean invaded Russia.

The country will not end, but it sure as hell can start the gradual procedure of falling out of power.

[Graav Wolfsong]

Well, fact is, unless Bush does a complete turnaround and actually does a good job this time around, the US is going to be considerably worse off in 4 years than it is now.

And since Bush had a clear victory this time, Americans now deserve all the crap Bush is going to get them in. You made your own bed and so on.

This election gave the rest of the world yet another reason to do that judgemental little "pfft, Americans" line.

[powermongor]

For what is worth Kerry conceding now is in the best long-term interest of your party.

I honestly believe that Kerry and the democrats still want to recount every single red state, however I believe that they are being smart and thinking long-term.

Kerry and the democrats are preserving their "brand". Gore's role in the 2000 recounts without acheiving victory, destroyed his political career. Now he is a glorified pep-rally leader. He put America thru hell, for nothing. Had he conceded, this might have been Bush v. Gore again, and I honestly believe that would have been much closer than Bush v. Kerry. Republicans now may state for the next 1000 years that Bush won 2000 based on his results in 2004, despite all the efforts of Democrats. They can say now that they didn't need the Supreme Court, it was only b/c of Gore. Gore set them up for this fall, they don't want to be set up x2.

Kerry will go back to being a senator, but he would always be a reminder of a failed challenge to be president if he were to protest the counts. I honestly think Edward's career is over... he took the hit for Kerry and came out and spoke to the people, telling them that they were going to keep fighting for all the votes... etc. Gore should have sent out Liebermann to do the same instead of himself, he might still have a career. But I am glad he didn't b/c I like Joe :thumbsup:

Democrats are going to effectively "re-brand" themselves for 08, therefore the noble concession early on. They know what issues got Bush elected. They have to transform Hillary now into someone capable of representing those things. I think they would be better off with someone besides Hillary, but I will predict right now that Hillary is running in 08.

This is an MBA-level analysis. You may disagree with me, but then again, I also had a pretty good idea that morals would be a key interest in this election.

[Essex]

well I don't think things will change that much, is the possiblity of things becoming worse greater now? Sure, least in my mind. But again I don't think the world will end and if things get too bad in this country hell you can always move.

I think it's very sad though that America decided that it would rather send it's sons to war, than let them marry each other.

[Hydro]

Well, fact is, unless Bush does a complete turnaround and actually does a good job this time around, the US is going to be considerably worse off in 4 years than it is now.

And since Bush had a clear victory this time, Americans now deserve all the crap Bush is going to get them in. You made your own bed and so on.

This election gave the rest of the world yet another reason to do that judgemental little "pfft, Americans" line.

Exactly. I am moving to Australia.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

Buhahahahhahahahahahahahah

Muhhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

:lol: :lol: :lol:


buhhahahahaahahahahahahahahahahah

[Hydro]

.... Ok ? ? ?

[DarthKirby001]

This is the land of the free, where morals are different for different people, and everyone is not a Christian. Bush is trying to make his values into law, and I think this will be our downfall.

They aren't just 'his' values. In the case of abortion, we're talking about basic constitutional rights to life. The contitution doesn't say a woman has the right to an abortion, it says everyone deserves the chance to live. Unborn babies = alive.

And as for *** marriage, Bush is simply upholding what our country has believed in the past: Marriage should be between a man and woman. If gays want to be gays, well fine. Let them be ***. But if they wan't to get married, tough luck.

That's what I believe, and I'm not going to argue further about it, simply because it does no good. All political/religious arguements always end with either "Well I disagree, but I respect your opinion" or "You deserve to die, DIE and go to hell and burn!".

:P

[SkyGhost]

So we now have another 4 years of fundamentalist christians in control going after fundamentalist muslims. World War 3 here we come!

[Hydro]

They aren't just 'his' values. In the case of abortion, we're talking about basic constitutional rights to life. The contitution doesn't say a woman has the right to an abortion, it says everyone deserves the chance to live. Unborn babies = alive.

And as for *** marriage, Bush is simply upholding what our country has believed in the past: Marriage should be between a man and woman. If gays want to be gays, well fine. Let them be ***. But if they wan't to get married, tough luck.

That's what I believe, and I'm not going to argue further about it, simply because it does no good. All political/religious arguements always end with either "Well I disagree, but I respect your opinion" or "You deserve to die, DIE and go to hell and burn!".

:P




"Unborn babies = alive. " - There are enough flaws in this argument that I won't even go into them.


"Marriage should be between a man and woman" - We aren't even talking marriage anymore. Civil unions are being disallowed. This is not acceptable, even by standards set by the constitution.



That being said, I respect your opinion, and your right to disagree :)

[DarthKirby001]

"Marriage should be between a man and woman" - We aren't even talking marriage anymore. Civil unions are being disallowed. This is not acceptable, even by standards set by the constitution.

A civil union is just a marriage without the word 'marriage' attatched to it. I mean...is there really any difference between the two?

This is going off what my government teacher said...and he's always right :lol:

[Hydro]

Civil Unions are just for economic benefit, which I agree with.

By the way, AoA, I have actually been here longer than you.
You may "forgive my insolence", but it doesn't change the fact that you have shown yourself to be at the same level as a common Battle net troll.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

Civil Unions are just for economic benefit, which I agree with.

By the way, AoA, I have actually been here longer than you.
You may "forgive my insolence", but it doesn't change the fact that you have shown yourself to be at the same level as a common Battle net troll.

If you indeed have, you haven't been reading much in these forums for that matter. Those comments are almost laughable, quite frankly, for once, I'm at a loss for words :p.

[OneMadOgre]

It's over folks. Kerry made the call to the Bush camp, he'll speak at 1:00, and Bush will speak at three.

Me, I'm just glad the post-election remained civil.

God bless America; let's get on with our lives now.
I think that the Democrats have some serious pondering to do. Somehow they were unable to elect a new canidate when the President faced an unpopular war and a down economy. That tells me that they did not have the right message.

I think it would help greatly if they talk more about why they've got a good plan than about how much they hate the other guy or had an election stolen from them. I had a lot of trouble voting for Kerry because all I really heard was what was wrong. In the end, I did vote for Kerry, but it was more because I have been very disappointed with the progress being made in Iraq and in the growth of big business to be an unstoppable force than because I was excited by the Democratic canidate.

With any luck, the Democrats go back and look at how other loyal opposition parties built a new message, even looking at Reagan's message in 1980, as a blueprint for how they begin to communicate their vision and plan for America instead of just "not Bush". I think they started to do that by the end of the campaign, but by then the decisions had already been made for most people.

[Father Jack]

Hydro, I assure you that I felt that the same thing could have been said had Kerry won. And I reassure you that it is a very good thing that Bush won and Keryr lost.

I know that alot of people are very upset right now, and I can understand that you really believed in someone and they did not get as far as you wanted them to. I hope that you all have a personal faith in God, it is a very powerful thing, and will provide solace in this time.

The real challenge now, is to not sit on the sidelines for the next four years, but to try to be a part of this administration and make a better country for us all.

powermonger, thank you for your words of understanding and your reaching out to the rest of us. I do beleive this country needs to be less polarised. But one thing that strikes me looking at the Election map and the way the polls look. Is how divided this country is, while i honestly believe that Bushes foriegn policy is misguided, the division in this country scares me more.

[Panchaloko]

AoA, i have been here since I was 1 1/2. So, thats like a lot of time to secure my uberness of forum posting and I rule anyone who says something against me cause I've been here the longest. You all must bow to me cause I was cruisin the gaming forums before you were! Its over, I won, I was here first.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

AoA, i have been here since I was 1 1/2. So, thats like a lot of time to secure my uberness of forum posting and I rule anyone who says something against me cause I've been here the longest. You all must bow to me cause I was cruisin the gaming forums before you were! Its over, I won, I was here first.

All hail Panchaloko, he who was here longest.

:worship: :worship: :worship:

[Panchaloko]

that means YOU hydro, or i shall write "Hydro sucks" in the air. Or something less extreme like no retaliation at all.

[Hydro]

I think that the Democrats have some serious pondering to do. Somehow they were unable to elect a new canidate when the President faced an unpopular war and a down economy. That tells me that they did not have the right message.

I think it would help greatly if they talk more about why they've got a good plan than about how much they hate the other guy or had an election stolen from them. I had a lot of trouble voting for Kerry because all I really heard was what was wrong. In the end, I did vote for Kerry, but it was more because I have been very disappointed with the progress being made in Iraq and in the growth of big business to be an unstoppable force than because I was excited by the Democratic canidate.

With any luck, the Democrats go back and look at how other loyal opposition parties built a new message, even looking at Reagan's message in 1980, as a blueprint for how they begin to communicate their vision and plan for America instead of just "not Bush". I think they started to do that by the end of the campaign, but by then the decisions had already been made for most people.

I completely agree. The fact that Kerry didn't win in a landslide shows that the campaign was gone about all wrong. Kerry spent so much time focused on the past, on his past in the Vietnam war, on Bush's past mistakes, on the mistakes even of Bush Sr., that he forgot to focus on what was going on in the present.
I know Obama can never run for president, but he is exactly the kind of candidate the Democrat's need next. Young, youthful, energetic, and steadfast in belief and what should be done in the future.
Hopefully 2004-2008 will go well for Bush (Much as I would love to wish him harm and disaster, we would still have to live with the consequence), but in 2008 I would love a new democratic candidate that could win without even the "too close to call" business we had last night.

That being said,
Panchalako 2008 - He has been here the longest!!!
:worship: :worship: :worship:

[xXxDraGoNxXx1123]

AoA, i have been here since I was 1 1/2. So, thats like a lot of time to secure my uberness of forum posting and I rule anyone who says something against me cause I've been here the longest. You all must bow to me cause I was cruisin the gaming forums before you were! Its over, I won, I was here first.

Bah, you're all a bunch of pansie-butt forum noobs. My mother used to read this gaming forum, and I read it from inside her WOMB! Ha! Take that sucka's!

[OneMadOgre]

I would hope that 2004-8 goes well for us as Nation and for the world rather than just for Bush. :)

Something incredible and awe-inspiring to me still that the most powerful nation in the world can have a free election every four years to determine course. Still a little ticked at the 40% that couldn't find their way to vote. Shame. We're in the middle of a war and you can't be bothered to at least vote your opinion on if we are headed in the right direction? Bah. You should have the obligation stripped from you.

[Panchaloko]

pfff everyone knows babies in the womb dont read gaming forums cause the lack the hand eye coordination to play. And plus it would be uncomfortable for the mom if they did play video games..... :scared:

[AgeOfAbnegation]

Something incredible and awe-inspiring to me still that the most powerful nation in the world can have a free election every four years to determine course.

It is rather unsettling, isnt it? :scratch:

[AgeOfAbnegation]

pfff everyone knows babies in the womb dont read gaming forums cause the lack the hand eye coordination to play. And plus it would be uncomfortable for the mom if they did play video games..... :scared:

pshhh.. You know not of his true uber-l337 ness. He can do that, and steal underwear, simultaneously.

[xXxDraGoNxXx1123]

Something incredible and awe-inspiring to me still that the most powerful nation in the world can have a free election every four years to determine course.

Honestly, if Bush wants to continue his current spending trend and continue cutting taxes as he plans, I wouldn't put much stock in us being the most powerful nation in the world come 4 years from now. If by some strange twisted magical luck Bush is able to actually get us a "per year" surplus running that at the very least rivals Clintons best year, it will take us an estimated 35 years before our country begins to even break even financially. Imagine another 4 years on top of this, without taking into consideration that we may *remove* another threat in another country.

pshhh.. You know not of his true uber-l337 ness. He can do that, and steal underwear, simultaneously.

Indeed, you would do well to listen to the wisdom of AoA, my UbeR-1337n3zZ far surpasses any the world has yet seen.

[Hydro]

I would hope that 2004-8 goes well for us as Nation and for the world rather than just for Bush.

I meant a good 4 years for us as a whole nation also. (Silly Ogres :cheesy: ).

Honestly, if Bush wants to continue his current spending trend and continue cutting taxes as he plans, I wouldn't put much stock in us being the most powerful nation in the world come 4 years from now. If by some strange twisted magical luck Bush is able to actually get us a "per year" surplus running that at the very least rivals Clintons best year, it will take us an estimated 35 years before our country begins to even break even financially. Imagine another 4 years on top of this, without taking into consideration that we may *remove* another threat in another country.
.

I still think we will be on top 4 years from now.
Ten years from now may be another story... (China for teh win)
I really don't think America not being on top would be a real big life changer actually.


By the way -
I was actually among the few that followed Noah onto his ark in the old testament. I created a rudimentary hand held game from sand and sticks called "Ark Quest" where you collected pairs of animals. What does this mean? It means that I have been playing games for the past 15,000 years, and everyone on this forum is undeserving of my l33t presence.

[Hydro]

Oh an AoA, I apologize for taking you way too seriously, you see, when I woke up this morning, I was sleep deprived and very very angry.
Now I am just sleep deprived and generally disgruntled, and I can see that I was being an *** as well :innocent:

[Panchaloko]

Oh an AoA, I apologize for taking you way too seriously, you see, when I woke up this morning, I was sleep deprived and very very angry.
Now I am just sleep deprived and generally disgruntled, and I can see that I was being an *** as well

Don't make excuses insolent boy! If you were uber h'ar''dcor'e you would never sleep cept during class/work/driving.

[AgeOfAbnegation]

Oh an AoA, I apologize for taking you way too seriously, you see, when I woke up this morning, I was sleep deprived and very very angry.
Now I am just sleep deprived and generally disgruntled, and I can see that I was being an *** as well :innocent:

Forgiven and forgotten. In truth, I'm very concerned as well about the middle east as you mentioned in another thread. Bush is an imperialist and traditionalist, which is what causes friction in today's world. I'm concerned with his foreign policy, but I am pleased with his stand on domestic and moral issues.

[Mastgrr]

To be honest, I'm not really that mad or sad. I'm actually kind of relieved that it's all over now. I respect the way the election system in our country works, so George W. Bush is our elected President fair and square. This administration is kind of predictable, so all that's need to be done is just to continue where we left off.

The Democrats have four years to the next election to reflect what went wrong and to reorganize. All over I'm hearing that the message now is to just keep hope up and understand that what the left has been doing now for 3 years has effectively been done by the right now for over 40 years ever since Barry Goldwater's defeat. And in these three years -- wow, just look at what's been accomplished!

To me, the journey all the way to this election has been a good enough reward, despite how silly it might sound. I'm only 18 years old, so by next election I'll be 22. I'll live to see another Democratic Presidential victory... hopefully and probably one that's even more important than this one.

[Hydro]

I'm concerned with his foreign policy, but I am pleased with his stand on domestic and moral issues.


Amen to the whole quote.

[Hydro]

To be honest, I'm not really that mad or sad. I'm actually kind of relieved that it's all over now. I respect the way the election system in our country works, so George W. Bush is our elected President fair and square. This administration is kind of predictable, so all that's need to be done is just to continue where we left off.

The Democrats have four years to the next election to reflect what went wrong and to reorganize. All over I'm hearing that the message now is to just keep hope up and understand that what the left has been doing now for 3 years has effectively been done by the right now for over 40 years ever since Barry Goldwater's defeat. And in these three years -- wow, just look at what's been accomplished!

To me, the journey all the way to this election has been a good enough reward, despite how silly it might sound. I'm only 18 years old, so by next election I'll be 22. I'll live to see another Democratic Presidential victory... hopefully and probably one that's even more important than this one.


I agree. I am looking foward to the new Democratic Party.
Kerry's concession speech was the best speech he has ever given sadly...

[powermongor]

To me, the journey all the way to this election has been a good enough reward, despite how silly it might sound. I'm only 18 years old, so by next election I'll be 22. I'll live to see another Democratic Presidential victory... hopefully and probably one that's even more important than this one.

???

I thought you would be like in your 30's. Is that your pic superimposed on Conan on your avatar?

[Hydro]

???

I thought you would be like in your 30's. Is that your pic superimposed on Conan on your avatar?

Thats what I thought as well.

[Glitch]

Well, I think that our grand state of California should suceed from the union.

That's my feelings. Oh, and I think I that I may have "misunderestimated" the intelligence level of the average America.

I am very, very disappointed, as Bush is leading this country down the wrong path. I am glad that it was a fair election, and that at least, when Bush pulls the plug for this country, we will have someone to blame it on. Someone who will go down in history as the worst president ever.

[xXxDraGoNxXx1123]

???

I thought you would be like in your 30's. Is that your pic superimposed on Conan on your avatar?

Thats what I thought as well.

I should kill you both where you stand with a rusty plastic spork... THAT IS BILL ROPER!!! As in ex-Blizzard employee turned Arena developer former Diablo 2 and Warcraft mouthpiece. Gah! GAH! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!

[powermongor]

Well, I think that our grand state of California should suceed from the union.

That's my feelings. Oh, and I think I that I may have "misunderestimated" the intelligence level of the average America.

The bad grammar fairy is gonna leave $1 under your pillow tonight.

[Hydro]

Well, I think that our grand state of California should suceed from the union.

That's my feelings. Oh, and I think I that I may have "misunderestimated" the intelligence level of the average America.

I am very, very disappointed, as Bush is leading this country down the wrong path. I am glad that it was a fair election, and that at least, when Bush pulls the plug for this country, we will have someone to blame it on. Someone who will go down in history as the worst president ever.

Only one solution - :drink: :drink: :drink:

[Hydro]

The bad grammar fairy is gonna leave $1 under your pillow tonight.

Sweet. Mike Tyson?

[Booms]

Well, I think that our grand state of California should suceed from the union.

That's my feelings. Oh, and I think I that I may have "misunderestimated" the intelligence level of the average America.

I am very, very disappointed, as Bush is leading this country down the wrong path. I am glad that it was a fair election, and that at least, when Bush pulls the plug for this country, we will have someone to blame it on. Someone who will go down in history as the worst president ever.

Those are my thoughts exactly. (Except replace "California" with "Illinois"). Bush was re-elected based on moral issues (WTF?) and terrorism, despite the fact that under his administration the terrorist ranks are swelling and, hey, guess what?, we still haven't caught Osama Bin Laden. The American people are both extremely stupid and extremely ignorant, and this does not bode well for the country as a whole.

I was a bit too young during 2000 to realize the implications of the election, but now, well, let's just say I didn't expect to be disillusioned this early.

Anyone know of any good colleges in England and/or Canada? I'm not sure I want to stick around here for another 4 years.

[Apollo]

Four more years of Bush isn't so bad for the rest of the world. Think of all the Bushism's we will get to laugh at.

Only one solution - :drink: :drink: :drink:

I don't drink... so I guess I'm doomed. Shucks. :grrr:

[Khal'jur]

Wow. I've never in my life been so ashamed of my countrymen. I just don't understand the motives for voting for Bush. This is truly the first time I've regarded most americans as being just plain stupid.

Hurrah for four more years of Bushes ****sm.

[Hydro]

Anyone know of any good colleges in England and/or Canada? I'm not sure I want to stick around here for another 4 years.

I might be studying abroad at the University of Wales in a couple of years.
Or I might be going to do work in Australia.
Either way, feel free to join along...

[Sage the Mage]

So now for the Big Question: What's going to happen now?

Economy - is going to improve, though the deficit is gonna be HUGE(R). Those tax cuts are gonna be history years from now I bet. Jobs are going to recover some, but I think we mainly lost jobs due to globalization and this admin doesn't really want to do anything about it other than No Child Left Behind.

Terrorism - In the next 4 years there probably will be another incident in the US. Not because Bush is there, just because. Obviously the ranks are gonna expand. War on Terror? We already ended that.

Foreign Affairs - Well we know Powell's not gonna be back for a second term. Who's gonna be Secretary of State? Well, since I think that Gulliani is gonna run in '08 I'd say he will be it, but I really have no idea. Iran will probably be the focal point. Hopefully we'll try to work with other countries and the UN.

Judges - I don't expect anything drastic here.

Domestic - I'd expect stuff GW wants to pass since he's got Congress, this is the main reason I think there's gonna be a huger deficit.

Random Stuff: The Joseph Wilson (leaking that his wife is a CIA agent) thing is gonna come back to haunt the admin.

Democrats are going to effectively "re-brand" themselves for 08, therefore the noble concession early on. They know what issues got Bush elected. They have to transform Hillary now into someone capable of representing those things. I think they would be better off with someone besides Hillary, but I will predict right now that Hillary is running in 08. Yes this is why I think that there's a chance we're better off long term, one the Democrats really organize (besides just hating Bush) we might get a nice progressive movement.

Clinton doesn't have a chance in hell of winning the primaries I don't think.

The Osama Tape - I think this worked in Bush's favor since it made terrorism more important than just Iraq.

Did I mention I'm REALLY concerned that people voted based on moral issues this election? I mean could you do more to make the Middle East hate us?

[powermongor]

Did I mention I'm REALLY concerned that people voted based on moral issues this election? I mean could you do more to make the Middle East hate us?

I find it interseting that you make the argument that our morals are offensive to people in the Middle East.

This didn't even occur to me in the election booth. If we should not vote according to our moral compass because it would offend those who wish to do us harm, then we are truly hosed.

[Andarcel]

Well, I think that our grand state of California should suceed from the union.

That's my feelings. Oh, and I think I that I may have "misunderestimated" the intelligence level of the average America.

I am very, very disappointed, as Bush is leading this country down the wrong path. I am glad that it was a fair election, and that at least, when Bush pulls the plug for this country, we will have someone to blame it on. Someone who will go down in history as the worst president ever.
At the current rate of immigration, the politics of Texas are going to start resembling California's more than, say, Oklahoma's with a generation. Immigrants have gone Dem for forever. So we will control the country eventually, one way or the other.

[Sage the Mage]

I find it interseting that you make the argument that our morals are offensive to people in the Middle East.

This didn't even occur to me in the election booth. If we should not vote according to our moral compass because it would offend those who wish to do us harm, then we are truly hosed. I'm just stating that its going to add fuel to the fire. I'm more concerned because people didn't vote based on actual issues, just who seemed more Christian.

Andarcel, supposedly a lot of them went for Bush this time around.

[powermongor]

I'm just stating that its going to add fuel to the fire. I'm more concerned because people didn't vote based on actual issues, just who seemed more Christian.

Andarcel, supposedly a lot of them went for Bush this time around.

So, you shouldn't vote for whoever can clam to be a better Christian, because the people that want to hurt us have a particular dislike for Christians?

Well, last time I checked, the terrorists weren't too fond of Jewish people either, probly more so then when compared to Christians... does that mean that you would feel better picking a Christian over a Jewish person?

[Pietoro]

Actually, last I checked, Muslim extremists think ANY religion that's not theirs is infidel and needs to be destroyed. So... yah.

[Sage the Mage]

So, you shouldn't vote for whoever can clam to be a better Christian, because the people that want to hurt us have a particular dislike for Christians?
You're drawing the wrong conclusion. I'm saying its going to be an effect. I don't like that people voted for the president on the basis of who they thought was more Christian for two reasons:

1. Many of them disagreed with the handing of things like Iraq and the economy, but voted for Bush anyway.
2. The President is a secular leader.

[powermongor]

You're drawing the wrong conclusion. I'm saying its going to be an effect. I don't like that people voted for the president on the basis of who they thought was more Christian for two reasons:

1. Many of them disagreed with the handing of things like Iraq and the economy, but voted for Bush anyway.
2. The President is a secular leader.

But he is also, if not more importantly, a figurehead / symbol / statement of who we are or want to be.

[Booms]

But he is also, if not more importantly, a figurehead / symbol / statement of who we are or want to be.

An idiot who did hard drugs in his younger years that ignores facts in favor of his gut instinct?

[Hydro]

I hate ignorance about Islam. "Infidel" is something the terrorists use, they do NOT represent Islam as a whole. Most Muslims are extremely peaceful, are extremely nice, and are some of the most hospitable people I have ever dealt with.
Religions don't make people bad, and they don't make people good, every individual is different. Please do not confuse the warrior with the war, the war with the civilians, or the extremists with the moderates.

[powermongor]

I hate ignorance about Islam. "Infidel" is something the terrorists use, they do NOT represent Islam as a whole. Most Muslims are extremely peaceful, are extremely nice, and are some of the most hospitable people I have ever dealt with.
Religions don't make people bad, and they don't make people good, every individual is different. Please do not confuse the warrior with the war, the war with the civilians, or the extremists with the moderates.

Osama has specifically mentioned his feeling towards Christians and Jewish people. Nobody in this thread has made blanket statements towards all muslims. We all know that not all muslims want to hurt the US.

[Sage the Mage]

But he is also, if not more importantly, a figurehead / symbol / statement of who we are or want to be.
See its probably a difference of opinion right here. I think its more important who's the head of government rather than who's than head of state. Actions speak louder than looks.

[Hydro]

So now for the Big Question: What's going to happen now?

Economy - is going to improve, though the deficit is gonna be HUGE(R). Those tax cuts are gonna be history years from now I bet. Jobs are going to recover some, but I think we mainly lost jobs due to globalization and this admin doesn't really want to do anything about it other than No Child Left Behind.


Foreign Affairs - Well we know Powell's not gonna be back for a second term. Who's gonna be Secretary of State? Well, since I think that Gulliani is gonna run in '08 I'd say he will be it, but I really have no idea. Iran will probably be the focal point. Hopefully we'll try to work with other countries and the UN.

Judges - I don't expect anything drastic here.

Domestic - I'd expect stuff GW wants to pass since he's got Congress, this is the main reason I think there's gonna be a huger deficit.

Random Stuff: The Joseph Wilson (leaking that his wife is a CIA agent) thing is gonna come back to haunt the admin.

Did I mention I'm REALLY concerned that people voted based on moral issues this election? I mean could you do more to make the Middle East hate us?

They would agree more with Bush's morals than Kerry's, but that isn't even close to why they hate us.

We will never hear about Joseph Wilson again.

Huger is not a word, but the deficent will definitely expand. He may be able to pull of an economy save yet though, so we can still hope.

The Judges area will be the area that you should expect the MOST controversy. His decision to replace Rehnquist will NOT be favored by Democrats or moderates.

Don't group globalization together with the economy, they share similar aspects but neither should be lumped as one.
Bush is extremely opposed to globalization, so sadly we won't see it happening the next four years.

No Child Left Behind is a horrible policy, and drastic changes need to be made SOON. Hopefully they will be.

Giuliani will not be secretary of state if he wants to run in 08'. He wants to run off his success in NY, not off the second half of a failed presidency. Expect a no namer to fill this seat, or an old hand from H.W.s term.

[Hydro]

Osama has specifically mentioned his feeling towards Christians and Jewish people. Nobody in this thread has made blanket statements towards all muslims. We all know that not all muslims want to hurt the US.

Whoops, misread some statements that some other people (not you) made. Ah well, its been a long night, and I just got out of a 4 hour long debate on the Kyoto treaty...

[Sage the Mage]

They would agree more with Bush's morals than Kerry's, but that isn't even close to why they hate us. One of the underlying things that we're not trying to portray is Christain vs Muslim. Obviously its not the entire issue, but its at least a small part of it.

Bush is extremely opposed to globalization, so sadly we won't see it happening the next four years. Bush is opposed to it if he thinks he has a chance of getting the union vote I'd say.

The Judges area will be the area that you should expect the MOST controversy. His decision to replace Rehnquist will NOT be favored by Democrats or moderates. That's why I don't think there will be "OH MY GOD THE WORLD'S GONNA END!!!" changes.


...and I know huger is not a word. I used it to imply that there's already a big deficit :)

The Wilson thing, yeah I said random for a reason. I think (hope) that something might come back to haunt them.

[Hydro]

One of the underlying things that we're not trying to portray is Christain vs Muslim. Obviously its not the entire issue, but its at least a small part of it.

Bush is opposed to it if he thinks he has a chance of getting the union vote I'd say.


Don't understand what you mean to say in the first part, and Bush has been consistently against globalization since he took office.
He has ignored the U.N., backed away from the international waters proposal, backed out of the Kyoto treaty, declined to join the international tribunal, and set new tariffs on agriculture as well as trying to reduce foreign oil.

[GaiaWombat]

I really do hope Bush does something to improve the deficit. The way he has been spending money is one of the things I do not agree on. Also, I'm hoping he improves the No Child Left Behind act. That's a mess and everyone knows it.

i've said it before and I'm saying it again. I don't think people voted solely because of religion; I think people's viewpoints and politcal standings are influenced by religion, which would of course give them more reason to vote for a religious person who would share their beliefs. Also, if people did vote for Bush because of moral reasons in spite of the fact that they disagreed with other policies, it is because they disagreed with both candidates and felt that at least they could vote for one they agree with on something. This is kind of where I'm standing right now.

[Sage the Mage]

We're thinking of two different things, but odds are I was probably wrong :)
Its probably because I'm thinking of outsourcing when I say it and you're thinking of international affairs. I usually associate that with liberalism.

As far as what I said before, the war on terror (using as a name for a combo of Iraq and Afganistan) at times looks more like a Christian vs Muslim war than other things. We have a large Islamic population, but stereotypes are stereotypes.

[Tso Za Naoa]

Outsourcing is getting out of hand. Far too many jobs are going over seas, and not enough are comming in. When will big businesses and the government learn that with less jobs, there are less people to spend money on products and services that keep the economy circulating. They cannot depend on the rich getting richer to pay their way.

Not only that, I am tired of making services calls to India! I have yet to hear one repeat my business address correctly.

[Hydro]

We're thinking of two different things, but odds are I was probably wrong :)
Its probably because I'm thinking of outsourcing when I say it and you're thinking of international affairs. I usually associate that with liberalism.

As far as what I said before, the war on terror (using as a name for a combo of Iraq and Afganistan) at times looks more like a Christian vs Muslim war than other things. We have a large Islamic population, but stereotypes are stereotypes.

I understand both of your points, and I agree with both of them in different ways. Our war on terror is definitely perceived as a war on Muslims at the very least, and I think this will cause many more problems in the years to come.

[Hydro]

Outsourcing is getting out of hand. Far too many jobs are going over seas, and not enough are comming in. When will big businesses and the government learn that with less jobs, there are less people to spend money on products and services that keep the economy circulating. They cannot depend on the rich getting richer to pay their way.

Not only that, I am tired of making services calls to India! I have yet to hear one repeat my business address correctly.

The problem is that we are giving tax cuts to companies who outsource. Not only can they get cheapor labor overseas, they get TAX cuts as well. We need to benefit companies who don't outsource in such a way that companies that do will be inclined to bring jobs back to the U.S.

[Sage the Mage]

Quite honestly, outsourcing is overblown. I agree we should get rid of loopholes that support it though.

[Drakeon]

Wow. I've never in my life been so ashamed of my countrymen. I just don't understand the motives for voting for Bush. This is truly the first time I've regarded most americans as being just plain stupid.

Hurrah for four more years of Bushes ****sm.

Damn, I hate when people have different opinions too! I mean obviously everyone who voted for Bush was a stupid red-neck hick right? Damn them for being so stupid and gullible, because everyone who votes for Bush is like that right?

Honestly, I have one thing to you people that keep saying how "ashamed" you are or how much you hate this. Get Over It. The voting is over and done with, you cannot change the past, stop dwelling on it.

Obviously I'm not referring to all of you, so please don't take it that way.

[Hydro]

Damn, I hate when people have different opinions too! I mean obviously everyone who voted for Bush was a stupid red-neck hick right? Damn them for being so stupid and gullible, because everyone who votes for Bush is like that right?


Hehe. This made me laugh.

[Andarcel]

Damn, I hate when people have different opinions too! I mean obviously everyone who voted for Bush was a stupid red-neck hick right? Damn them for being so stupid and gullible, because everyone who votes for Bush is like that right? I do believe there are thoughtful intelligent, objective, well-informed Bush supporters. I've just had to take it on faith thus far.

[Hydro]

I do believe there are thoughtful intelligent, objective, well-informed Bush supporters. I've just had to take it on faith thus far.

Sadly, you see far too many posts that basically boil down to "BUSH IS THE ROXXOR!" or "KERRY IS UBER L33T!!!!111". It makes both sides look bad.
Mandatory IQ Tests should be required for voting privileges...

[DarthKirby001]

^^^ New topic. Discuss.

[Hydro]

^^^ New topic. Discuss.

Hmmm, I think it is nice that he is giving Teresa a break from child-bearing.

[Booms]

Hmmm, I think it is nice that he is giving Teresa a break from child-bearing.

Hahaha, I couldn't have come up with a better reply.

[powermongor]

Hahaha, I couldn't have come up with a better reply.

Methinks those fields be barren...

[Drakeon]

I do believe there are thoughtful intelligent, objective, well-informed Bush supporters. I've just had to take it on faith thus far.

I consider myself a Bush supporter, despite myself becoming more and more moderate.

The problem is I don't have the time nor the inclination to make those long-*** posts that all you Anti-bush people seem to make. I also don't have time to find facts to backup any statements I might make. These threads also tend to run 100+ posts and thats a lot of time spent trying to prove something that won't make a difference. In short, I find it a futile exercise :)

I honestly wonder how long it takes some of you (the ones with links out the whazoo in particular) to make a post.

[Hydro]

I consider myself a Bush supporter, despite myself becoming more and more moderate.

The problem is I don't have the time nor the inclination to make those long-*** posts that all you Anti-bush people seem to make. I also don't have time to find facts to backup any statements I might make. These threads also tend to run 100+ posts and thats a lot of time spent trying to prove something that won't make a difference. In short, I find it a futile exercise :)

I honestly wonder how long it takes some of you (the ones with links out the whazoo in particular) to make a post.

No longer than 5-10 minutes.
I have to write Poli Sci papers every day that are 3-4 pages long at least, so I have links handy and speed writing skills to boot.

[Ifrit18]

Why should I support Bush?

Bush pwns big time!!!

I believe changing presidents during the Iraq war may do more harm than good.

I'm also a republican :p.

[Andarcel]

I also don't have time to find facts to backup any statements I might make. "...For the unexamined life is not worth living for men..." Plato, The Apology of Socrates.

It appears by your own admission that your opinions outstrip your knowledge, or your inclination to know. That's a characteristic I've found a lot in Bush supporters; they just don't bother very much with finding the truth.

[Hydro]

"...For the unexamined life is not worth living for men..." Plato, The Apology of Socrates.

It appears by your own admission that your opinions outstrip your knowledge, or your inclination to know. That's a characteristic I've found a lot in Bush supporters; they just don't bother very much with finding the truth.

I love The Apology of Socrates. Before I changed majors to poli. sci. and anthropology, I considered being a History major specializing in the ancient world. Mythology, philosophy, and the epic poems are some of the most amazing works ever created.
I know thats a little bit OT, but hey, we are in the OT thread.

[powermongor]

Before I changed majors to poli. sci. and anthropology, I considered being a History major specializing in the ancient world.

Whoa, whoa, WHOA... lets back up a bit here...

Hydro, what was your major before, and why did you switch?

[bobxii]

"...For the unexamined life is not worth living for men..." Plato, The Apology of Socrates.

It appears by your own admission that your opinions outstrip your knowledge, or your inclination to know. That's a characteristic I've found a lot in Bush supporters; they just don't bother very much with finding the truth.

It's also a characteristic found in a lot of Kerry supporters; they just don't bother with the truth; instead listening to what everyone says. Funny, normal humans are like that, too!

Sorry, but you're not going to pin a label like that on a single group of people, whether you hate them or not.

Problem with this election is that the media has twisted everything everyone says... in both directions. You've got Michael Moore and his sadist crap, and the Swift Boat vets with thier opinions, and more and more crap floating around - it becomes impossible to discern the truth from the poo in the toilet.

[Andarcel]

Sorry, but you're not going to pin a label like that on a single group of people, whether you hate them or not.Yes, in fact, I am. Apparently you didn't see the study on the differences in ignorance between Kerry and Bush supporters. I advise you to look it up, it makes for fascinating reading.

it becomes impossible to discern the truth from the poo in the toilet. Not if you're willing to invest a little effort.

[Booms]

Methinks those fields be barren...

Says the eNrivonmEntalistz-r-coMmuNists!!!!1111-guy.

[Hydro]

Whoa, whoa, WHOA... lets back up a bit here...

Hydro, what was your major before, and why did you switch?

Anthropology

Now it's international politics.

They are all in the same field though...

[powermongor]

Anthropology

Now it's international politics.

They are all in the same field though...

And what do you want to do when you graduate?

[Hydro]

And what do you want to do when you graduate?

I am getting an internship with Dallas' International Communications office next year. After that I wan't to work either for the U.N.'s human rights department, or another similar NGO.

[powermongor]

I am getting an internship with Dallas' International Communications office next year. After that I wan't to work either for the U.N.'s human rights department, or another similar NGO.

OMG, me too! We have so much in common after all!

[Hydro]

OMG, me too! We have so much in common after all!

Seriously?
And you vote Bush?
I'm not flaming or anything, I've just never met another aid worker that was a Republican.

[The.Jolly.Roger]

Seriously?
And you vote Bush?
I'm not flaming or anything, I've just never met another aid worker that was a Republican.


See, when you figure out that Conservatism stands for the rights and freedoms of individuals, then you will begin to understand why McGovern, Carter, Dukakis, and now Kerry lost. We are all about freedom for individuals...when are you going to understand that??
You just don't understand that maybe alot of people don't want anything given to them...they want to work for it. And we certainly don't think that the government knows what is best for us all the time, so it should redistribute our income as it sees fit....and control most other aspects of our lives.
You guys really need to rethink your positions.

[powermongor]

I like this Jolly.Roger guy, he is coo :thumbsup:

[Hydro]

See, when you figure out that Conservatism stands for the rights and freedoms of individuals, then you will begin to understand why McGovern, Carter, Dukakis, and now Kerry lost. We are all about freedom for individuals...when are you going to understand that??
You just don't understand that maybe alot of people don't want anything given to them...they want to work for it. And we certainly don't think that the government knows what is best for us all the time, so it should redistribute our income as it sees fit....and control most other aspects of our lives.
You guys really need to rethink your positions.

DAHAHAHAHAHHAHHA...
wait, your serious?

Normally I post very well backed up claims, that are not troll-worthy at all, but that whole comment is overloaded with ********.

[Hydro]

I read your post again Jolly.Roger and am still laughing.
I sure hope you were joking.

[The.Jolly.Roger]

DAHAHAHAHAHHAHHA...
wait, your serious?

Normally I post very well backed up claims, that are not troll-worthy at all, but that whole comment is overloaded with ********.

Okay, then you tell me why McGovern and the rest lost. Because they are progressive leftist socialist liberal ...whatever. It's what they are, and they keep losing for it. Liberalism does not coincide with the cornerstones of this nation...nor will it ever.

Smaller Government,
Less power to the government, more power to the individual. When you learn that concept, then you will learn why this country exists as the the greatest nation in the history of the world, and why it keeps flushing these New Englanders down the toilet.

[Sage the Mage]

See, when you figure out that Conservatism stands for the rights and freedoms of individuals, then you will begin to understand why McGovern, Carter, Dukakis, and now Kerry lost. We are all about freedom for individuals...when are you going to understand that?? Actually, that's liberalism if you wanna be all technical. Anyway if you want those ideals to exist in the Republican party again, you probably should look into removing the neo-conservatives from power.

Smaller Government,
Less power to the government, more power to the individual. When you learn that concept, then you will learn why this country exists as the the greatest nation in the history of the world, and why it keeps flushing these New Englanders down the toilet
Smaller Government? I guess you forgot about the whole creation of Homeland Security thing.

[Hydro]

Okay, then you tell me why McGovern and the rest lost. Because they are progressive leftist socialist liberal ...whatever. It's what they are, and they keep losing for it. Liberalism does not coincide with the cornerstones of this nation...nor will it ever.

Smaller Government,
Less power to the government, more power to the individual. When you learn that concept, then you will learn why this country exists as the the greatest nation in the history of the world, and why it keeps flushing these New Englanders down the toilet.

First off, quit with the "When you learn crap", because, not to be rude, I can already tell I know a hell of a lot more than you.
I am posting your comments in a new thread, because I want 100 people to tell you why you are wrong, not just me writing another thesis to try and dis-illusion you conservative ***** mongors.

[The.Jolly.Roger]

First off, quit with the "When you learn crap", because, not to be rude, I can already tell I know a hell of a lot more than you.
I am posting your comments in a new thread, because I want 100 people to tell you why you are wrong, not just me writing another thesis to try and dis-illusion you conservative ***** mongors.

You sound like any other intellectual liberal. You think you know more than anyone else, just like all other liberals. This pompous crap is why you keep losing!! LoLz...why can't you understand that????

Look, you radical liberal leftist socialists will never gain control in this country, because us conservative warmongers which make up most of the country will keep flushing you down the toilet. You lost. Have you ever ventured to contemplate why you keep losing??

[Hydro]

You sound like any other intellectual liberal. You think you know more than anyone else, just like all other liberals. This pompous crap is why you keep losing!! LoLz...why can't you understand that????

Look, you radical liberal leftist socialists will never gain control in this country, because us conservative warmongers which make up most of the country will keep flushing you down the toilet. You lost. Have you ever ventured to contemplate why you keep losing??

Maybe because uneducated fools like yourself make up 52% of the country?
We have only lost once in the past 12 years. You seem to forget that Bush lost the popular vote last election.
In 4 years, I will revel in the decimation of the extreme right.

By the way, saying "Lolz" just re-iterates the fact that I am indeed more intelligent than you.

[The.Jolly.Roger]

Maybe because uneducated fools like yourself make up 52% of the country?
We have only lost once in the past 12 years. You seem to forget that Bush lost the popular vote last election.
In 4 years, I will revel in the decimation of the extreme right.

By the way, saying "Lolz" just re-iterates the fact that I am indeed more intelligent than you.


Lolz..under educated?? That just tells me that you are a pompous ignorant liberal. I have my bachelors in Sociology, minor in Psych from NC State University. Now, I really felt like I had to put that in your face, but the fact that you're just another liberal would do just as good.

It really doesn't matter if you were more intelligent than me anyway. What matters is that you people continue to lose and my stupid idiotic redneck hick bigot warmonger bible slamming people continue to win.

[Hydro]

Lolz..under educated?? That just tells me that you are a pompous ignorant liberal. I have my bachelors in Sociology, minor in Psych from NC State University. Now, I really felt like I had to put that in your face, but the fact that you're just another liberal would do just as good.

It really doesn't matter if you were more intelligent than me anyway. What matters is that you people continue to lose and my stupid idiotic redneck hick bigot warmonger bible slamming people continue to win.

Lolz? I'm glad you continue to post, it keeps making you look more a fool.

"stupid idiotic redneck hick bigot warmonger bible slamming people continue to win."
Couldn't have said it better myself.

"Now, I really felt like I had to put that in your face,"
Put what in my face?
I still get the feeling that your a 12 year old with an over-inflated ego and no political knowledge.
Going "well we won" doesn't change the facts...

"It really doesn't matter if you were more intelligent than me anyway"
That is good, because I am.

[The.Jolly.Roger]

Okay, let us stay in one thread please. The bi-posting is pointless.

Answer these questions:

Do you want a heavy progressive tax?
Do you believe in the redistribution of income?
Do you support the abolition of private property?
Should this country have a total secular society and abandon it's traditional faith-based views?
Do you want socialized healthcare?

Lets just begin with those. Answer those, and give me the why, how, and why it is better for this country.
Then I will respond to your answers. We can debate respectfully or not at all.

[Hydro]

Okay, let us stay in one thread please. The bi-posting is pointless.

Answer these questions:

Do you want a heavy progressive tax?
Do you believe in the redistribution of income?
Do you support the abolition of private property?
Should this country have a total secular society and abandon it's traditional faith-based views?
Do you want socialized healthcare?

Lets just begin with those. Answer those, and give me the why, how, and why it is better for this country.
Then I will respond to your answers. We can debate respectfully or not at all.

Im glad you finally agreed to be sensible.

Should this country have a total secular society and abandon it's traditional faith-based views?
This country was founded for the free, including free from religion being forced upon them.

Do you want socialized healthcare?
Yes, it has been a huge success in progressive, socialized countries.

Do you believe in the redistribution of income?
To a certain extent, yes.

Do you want a heavy progressive tax?
Very strongly, YES.

Do you support the abolition of private property?
Does anyone?

[Sage the Mage]

Do you want a heavy progressive tax? A progressive tax? Yes. A dollar means less to a rich person than the poor.

Do you believe in the redistribution of income? A progressive tax should achieve this.

Do you support the abolition of private property? No. That's a restriction of freedom.

Should this country have a total secular society and abandon it's traditional faith-based views? A multi-cultural state should always be secular in order to not discriminate. You want faith? Go to church.

Do you want socialized healthcare? I want basic healthcare coverage for all Americans. The obvious benefit being that everyone would have basic healthcare and not...die.

I'll just assume you missed my previous posts :)

[Hydro]

A progressive tax? Yes. A dollar means less to a rich person than the poor.

A progressive tax should achieve this.

No. That's a restriction of freedom.

A multi-cultural state should always be secular in order to not discriminate. You want faith? Go to church.

I want basic healthcare coverage for all Americans. The obvious benefit being that everyone would have basic healthcare and not...die.

I'll just assume you missed my previous posts :)

Nice. I like when someone shares all my views ;)

[Father Jack]

It really doesn't matter if you were more intelligent than me anyway. What matters is that you people continue to lose and my stupid idiotic redneck hick bigot warmonger bible slamming people continue to win.

It's just as I feared, your not informed enough to realise that; you winning, is in reality just you losing and being blissfully happy about it.



It's already been shown that 75% of Bush's supporters are missinformed on major issues.

[Father Jack]

A progressive tax? Yes. A dollar means less to a rich person than the poor.

A progressive tax should achieve this.

No. That's a restriction of freedom.

A multi-cultural state should always be secular in order to not discriminate. You want faith? Go to church.

I want basic healthcare coverage for all Americans. The obvious benefit being that everyone would have basic healthcare and not...die.

I'll just assume you missed my previous posts :)

Agreed :teeth:

[The.Jolly.Roger]

Okay, let me correct myself. We were actually tri-posting, and even on the same subject which made us both look like idiots.

Now, back to our intelligent conversation.

So, you believe that we should have a heavy progressive tax, which tells me you believe in the redistribution of income, and not only to a certain extent.

Secondly, I want to know just how you would fund a socialized healthcare program in this country while keeping the quality of healthcare that we have now from crashing. Also, how you would do this without having a heavy progressive tax...and if you can't do it without the tax, how would you get the American people to accept it.

[Hydro]

Okay, let me correct myself. We were actually tri-posting, and even on the same subject which made us both look like idiots.

Now, back to our intelligent conversation.

So, you believe that we should have a heavy progressive tax, which tells me you believe in the redistribution of income, and not only to a certain extent.

Secondly, I want to know just how you would fund a socialized healthcare program in this country while keeping the quality of healthcare that we have now from crashing. Also, how you would do this without having a heavy progressive tax...and if you can't do it without the tax, how would you get the American people to accept it.

I would love a heavy progressive tax. Seems it would solve a lot of the funding problems on its own. If people still want to pay for privatized healthcare, more power to them, but at least the poor will have access to something.

[The.Jolly.Roger]

I would love a heavy progressive tax. Seems it would solve a lot of the funding problems on its own. If people still want to pay for privatized healthcare, more power to them, but at least the poor will have access to something.


Poor people already have socialized healthcare. I'm talkiing about socialized healthcare on a national level...for everyone(what Kerry wanted to do). Because if you did this, I think there would have to be a heavy tax...therefore people would not be able to invest in privatized healthcare thus forcing them onto the government healthcare plan.

How would you get the American people to accept a heavy progressive tax??

[Hydro]

Poor people already have socialized healthcare. I'm talkiing about socialized healthcare on a national level...for everyone(what Kerry wanted to do). Because if you did this, I think there would have to be a heavy tax...therefore people would not be able to invest in privatized healthcare thus forcing them onto the government healthcare plan.

How would you get the American people to accept a heavy progressive tax??

First off, poor people do NOT have access to healthcare. A few do, a lot do not. Secondly, the American people (the majority) should be all for a tax that only affects the wealthiest of the wealthy. This country has been going down the path of "What can my country do for me" for far to long now.

[Father Jack]

Poor people already have socialized healthcare.


Actually they don't.

America has the highest infant mortality rate in the industrialised world. I guess once babies come out of the womb they have to fend for themselves?

[Sage the Mage]

How would you get the American people to accept a heavy progressive tax?? By calling it a temporary refund adjustment.

All you have to do is market it correctly.

[Hydro]

Actually they don't.

America has the highest infant mortality rate in the industrialised world. I guess once babies come out of the womb they have to fend for themselves?

IMR - 2004 (Wanted to back up the good Father)


Country Amount
1. Sweden 3.44
2. Iceland 3.53
3. Singapore 3.6
4. Finland 3.76
5. Japan 3.84
6. Norway 3.9
7. Andorra 4.07
8. Netherlands 4.31
9. Austria 4.39
10. France 4.41
11. Switzerland 4.42
12. Macau 4.44
13. Slovenia 4.47
14. Belgium 4.64
15. Germany 4.65
16. Luxembourg 4.71
17. Spain 4.85
18. Australia 4.9
19. Liechtenstein 4.92
20. Guernsey 4.92
21. Canada 4.95
22. Denmark 4.97
23. Gibraltar 5.4
24. Ireland 5.43
25. United Kingdom 5.45
26. Czech Republic 5.46
27. Jersey 5.52
28. Northern Mariana Islands 5.61
29. Malta 5.72
30. Monaco 5.73
31. Hong Kong 5.73
32. Italy 5.76
33. Portugal 5.84
34. San Marino 6.09
35. New Zealand 6.18
36. Greece 6.25
37. Aruba 6.26
38. Man, Isle of 6.3
39. Guam 6.58
40. Faroe Islands 6.66
41. United States 6.69

[The.Jolly.Roger]

First off, poor people do NOT have access to healthcare. A few do, a lot do not. Secondly, the American people (the majority) should be all for a tax that only affects the wealthiest of the wealthy. This country has been going down the path of "What can my country do for me" for far to long now.

A few do?? How do you think Jesse Jackson rings in the black vote for Democrats every election?

Look, I work for South Dakota Social Services. Right now I work for Child Protection, but I have worked in Economic Assistance. When you say only a "few" recieve socialized healthcare...then you are mistaken. Half of the entire South Dakota budget goes to the social medical program for low income families in this state....HALF of the WHOLE budget. This is hardly a "few". Basically, if you are a legal citizen of this country, and fall within the poverty level, and if you are a child, you are eligible for a social medical program. I know this for a fact. In fact, in this state, you only have to be within 150% of the poverty level to be eligible for a medical program Let me tell you, social medical programs are the BEST insurance programs that exist, because rarely are there copays or deductibles...they just pay for everything. Poor people are taken care of, believe me. However, this should not be the rule. They need to be registered in work programs to help them get off these social programs...if they are able bodied adults.

When you tell me you want these things, there are only certain ways you can do it. When I say liberalism coincides with Socialism, which is only a backdoor to Communism...I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I feel that I am just stating the truth. The Soviet Union wasn't built in a day. In fact, it came along slowly but surely with ideas such as a heavy progressive tax, social equality, abolition of private property as suggestions to start with as stated by Engels and Marx in the Manifesto of the Communist Party.

You know, it would be wonderful if a perfect model of government and society could be executed without executing any disagreeables. It would be great if everyone could be socially equal, noone made more money than another, noone had any leverage, assets, or private property, etc..etc.. But this cannot happen. Naturally, not everyone is born equal. Naturally, we are born with the ability to reason and choose. A perfect government/society can never be employed by or dicated to an imperfect race such as the human race.....unless you kill everyone who disagrees with you.

I know that our society and government aren't perfect..nor should they be...nor will they ever be. No politician is completely honest, and completely serves the interests of their constituency without serving their own at all. But Capitalism and Democracy are the best models for humanity. This is why I voted for Bush...because I think he will better serve these models than liberalism or any of it's candidates would.

[Hydro]

How Sweden's system works -
Health care is provided by a tax-financed national health service using a combination of doctors employed directly by the health service and private doctors with service agreements. Hospitals are mainly publicly owned with only a minority of private providers. Health care is largely free or provided at low cost to the patient that is determined on a regional level and depends on the type of treatment (ranging from 0-250 SKr). Since 1998 families with children–irrespective of parental income- no longer have to pay fees for health services. 10 Co-payments have risen but remain very low. There is also a yearly limit to patient cost sharing that gives an individual the right to a "högkostnadskort" (free card) and entitles the patient to free care and medicine for the remainder of the year (end of 1996 the amount was 2200 SKr). Dental treatment is the exception. All individuals under 20 years of age are provided free dental care. Persons aged 20 and over are insured by a general dental insurance scheme that provides partial coverage for dental treatment costing more than a certain amount.

USAs system -
The U.S. health insurance system has both a private (mainly employer-financed) and public component. 70.1 % of population is covered by a private insurance plan; 61.4 % of population is covered by an employer-sponsored private plan; 24.8 % is covered by a government insurance plan; 13.2 % is covered by Medicare; 10.8 % is covered by Medicaid; and 3.2 % is covered by military health insurance. 16.1 % of the population had no health insurance in 1997. Employer-sponsored health insurance often requires that the insured worker or retiree pay part of the premium contribution for the insurance. Private insurance that is not part of an employer-sponsored plan can be purchased from private companies. Many -- though not all -- private plans require that insured people make payments for medical care, including deductibles and a modest percentage of charges above deductibles. Besides plans for its own employees and retirees, the government sponsors two major plans: Medic


Make your own judgements on which is better.
I realize that we have some good programs for health in place right now, but surely you also realize that they could be better...

[The.Jolly.Roger]

When you say that most of Bush's constituency is misinformed, then I can say the same thing about the Democratic one as well. I mean, sponsoring a draft bill, then emailing millions of college students saying that Bush wants to reinstate a draft??? Come on.

You know, federal government isn't the only level of government that have effect. Local and state government have a big part in the whole thing as well. Democrats have been running Cleveland and Cincinatti for the last 20 years and poverty is at an all time high in those areas. Is this mismanagement?? No, this is not a mistake by any means. How do you think Democrats reap in the minority vote?? They want these people on welfare so that they can promise them even more to get their votes....via Jesse Jackson.

Anyways, I have to hit the hay stack that I sleep on. Before I do that I have to build a fire, so I better get on with it.
Talk to you all later.

[Hydro]

Democrats have been running Cleveland and Cincinatti for the last 20 years and poverty is at an all time high in those areas. Is this mismanagement?? No, this is not a mistake by any means. How do you think Democrats reap in the minority vote?? They want these people on welfare so that they can promise them even more to get their votes....via Jesse Jackson.
.

I was close to thinking you were a civilized debater, with maybe an ounce of sense.
Sad to see I was wrong.

[Father Jack]

When you say that most of Bush's constituency is misinformed, then I can say the same thing about the Democratic one as well.


No the same study found that Democratic supporters were far better informed that Bush supporters.

[Mastgrr]

Look, you radical liberal leftist socialists....You're a radical conservative rightist fascist.

I'm glad we're having these mature debates in these forums.

[Booms]

You're a radical conservative rightist fascist.

I'm glad we're having these mature debates in these forums.

Saros and Havard don't participate anymore. :hanky:

I don't remember if Drakeon ever debated, but he can have a hanky-smilie anyways. :hanky:

[DarthKirby001]

Whenever Kerry was ahead in the polls, the stock market would decline. Why? People know he would've been bad for the economy.

Just an interesting little fact for you guys...

[Booms]

Care to provide a link? Otherwise I'm going to have to think that you heard that from Rush...and, well, that's just sad.

[DarthKirby001]

Care to provide a link? Otherwise I'm going to have to think that you heard that from Rush...and, well, that's just sad.

I'm looking for one, but can't find it. My government teacher was the one who told it to me, and while he's anti-Kerry, he doesn't go out spewing lies. If you really want, I could ask him on Monday where he got the info...

[Father Jack]

Whenever Kerry was ahead in the polls, the stock market would decline. Why? People know he would've been bad for the economy.

Just an interesting little fact for you guys...


Wow, you can predict why the market fluctuates! There are legions of people trying to figure out what you already know, you should be rich.

p.s. I'd like to see some evidence of this 'Fact'.

[Booms]

I'm looking for one, but can't find it. My government teacher was the one who told it to me, and while he's anti-Kerry, he doesn't go out spewing lies.

You sure? I find it surprising that a government teacher doesn't find Bush to be one of the worst things to ever happen to America...is he a legit teacher?

[DarthKirby001]

You sure? I find it surprising that a government teacher doesn't find Bush to be one of the worst things to ever happen to America...is he a legit teacher?

He's a good teacher.

At any rate, Kerry wanted to raise the minimum wage, right? That means the companies would have to raise the prices on their products to break even with the addition cost. Can you spell 'inflation'?

[Father Jack]

I'm looking for one, but can't find it. My government teacher was the one who told it to me, and while he's anti-Kerry, he doesn't go out spewing lies. If you really want, I could ask him on Monday where he got the info...


So your government teacher is using his position as an educator to teach you what to think. This is the type of indoctrination you would expect in a totalitarian country. Ideally you shouldn't be able to tell what your teachers position is in politics.

Maybe you should learn to think for yourself and come to your own opinions on what is important to you, instead of nod mouth agreement to what your teacher says. The true role of a student is to question everything. Only then you will truly begin to learn, and you'll be respected for your own opinion .

[Father Jack]

He's a good teacher.

At any rate, Kerry wanted to raise the minimum wage, right? That means the companies would have to raise the prices on their products to break even with the addition cost. Can you spell 'inflation'?

That is not about inflation.

If you raise the wage of the working class they have more money to spend in the economy and it boosts the economy, creating more jobs. I don't think you understand labor issues. God forbid a person should be able to have a 'living wage'. I assume you have never had a job. When you have had a job and then maybe you will understand the value of labor.

[DarthKirby001]

So your government teacher is using his position as an educator to teach you what to think. This is the type of indoctrination you would expect in a totalitarian country. Ideally you shouldn't be able to tell what your teachers position is in politics.

Maybe you should learn to think for yourself and come to your own opinions on what is important to you, instead of nod mouth agreement to what your teacher says. The true role of a student is to question everything. Only then you will truly begin to learn, and you'll be respected for your own opinion .

I'm not gonna take the time to explain why the above statements are wrong...because I really just don't care. How about we go back to how much kerry sucks?
:lol:

[DarthKirby001]

That is not about inflation.

If you raise the wage of the working class they have more money to spend in the economy and it boosts the economy, creating more jobs. I don't think you understand labor issues. God forbid a person should be able to have a 'living wage'. I assume you have never had a job. When you have had a job and then maybe you will understand the value of labor.

So you're telling me prices won't go up with a min. wage increase? You think the comanies are going to just be happy loosing money?

[Father Jack]

I'm not gonna take the time to explain why the above statements are wrong...because I really just don't care. How about we go back to how much kerry sucks?
:lol:

You cared enough to respond so please; tell me why my statements are wrong.

[DarthKirby001]

You cared enough to respond so please; tell me why my statements are wrong.

I responded with the *short* answer. But since you don't seem to be willing to let it go,

So your government teacher is using his position as an educator to teach you what to think. This is the type of indoctrination you would expect in a totalitarian country. Ideally you shouldn't be able to tell what your teachers position is in politics.

Maybe you should learn to think for yourself and come to your own opinions on what is important to you, instead of nod mouth agreement to what your teacher says. The true role of a student is to question everything. Only then you will truly begin to learn, and you'll be respected for your own opinion .



If he was any other teacher, I'd probably agree with you. But he gives us facts from both sides (Yes, if Bush makes a mistake he'll be the first one to admit it), and lets us decide for ourselves. However, it's a Christian school so the majority of the students/teachers are going to be Pro-Bush. Even so, he's not a Right-wing nut who will say anything true or untrue about Kerry to make him look bad. I've called him on a number of issues, and he actually gav e me legitimate websites where he got the information.

Again, I could ask him on Monday where he heard about the stock market declining and he could probably give me a website with the information. I wish the election was still going on, so I could see for myself just how much the polls affected the market.

[Mastgrr]

So you're telling me prices won't go up with a min. wage increase? You think the comanies are going to just be happy loosing money?So you don't care that people can't live off the minimum wage? (61 percent of those earning the minimum wage are over the age of 20 and many of them are the sole supporters of their families.) You only care about the corporations losing money?

[DarthKirby001]

So you don't care that people can't live off the minimum wage? (61 percent of those earning the minimum wage are over the age of 20 and many of them are the sole supporters of their families.) You only care about the corporations losing money?

My point was that Kerry would've been bad for the economy.

[Hydro]

My point was that Kerry would've been bad for the economy.

So... what your saying is, you have no valid arguments to make?

If you make a statement like "Kerry would have been bad for the economy", people generally want reasons why, historical basis for your information, and valid conclusions about the future under a Kerry plan that I doubt you understand.

[DarthKirby001]

So... what your saying is, you have no valid arguments to make?

If you make a statement like "Kerry would have been bad for the economy", people generally want reasons why, historical basis for your information, and valid conclusions about the future under a Kerry plan that I doubt you understand.

...as I said, the stock market didn't like him (I don't care whether or not you believe it, and you don't have to). And as I said, prices would go up under his administration. And most likely, we'd have a tax increase.

Wait...why the hell am I discussing this anyway? Americans chose Bush for their president. Despite the liberal media, Michael Moore, and all those silly rock bands supporting Kerry, Americans still chose Bush.

Kerry is gone. And I'm glad.

[Hydro]

...as I said, the stock market didn't like him (I don't care whether or not you believe it, and you don't have to). And as I said, prices would go up under his administration. And most likely, we'd have a tax increase.

Wait...why the hell am I discussing this anyway? Americans chose Bush for their president. Despite the liberal media, Michael Moore, and all those silly rock bands supporting Kerry, Americans still chose Bush.

Kerry is gone. And I'm glad.

So... what your saying... is that you STILL don't have a single valid point to make.
At all.
Not even one?
Even a small one would help...

[Mastgrr]

My point was that Kerry would've been bad for the economy.It's all speculation. Since Kerry never got elected we'll never know about it anyway.

[DarthKirby001]

So... what your saying... is that you STILL don't have a single valid point to make.
At all.
Not even one?
Even a small one would help...

Want me to make a valid point?

KERRY LOST THE ELECTION, BECAUSE AMERICA DIDN'T WANT HIM.

I'm done talking about what may have happened under Kerry's rule, beucase he's history. Kthxbye.

[Hydro]

Want me to make a valid point?

KERRY LOST THE ELECTION, BECAUSE AMERICA DIDN'T WANT HIM.

I'm done talking about what may have happened under Kerry's rule, beucase he's history. Kthxbye.

And yet another forum goer falls into Shame.
Dig deep enough, and you find that every conservative has the heart of a B.Net kiddy.

By the way, that wasn't a valid point, as America has shown twice now that it is filled with idiots.

[The.Jolly.Roger]

Kerry would be bad for this economy because we have a free trade economy...simply put.

Socialized Healthcare---bad for the American economy
Hiking taxes---bad for the American economy
Bigger government---bad for the American economy

Note: American economy
America is the greatest nation in the history of the world....why do you think that is?
Maybe these things aren't bad for the French, German, Canadian, or Spanish economies, but these things are bad for the American economy.
Look, someone made a comparison to Sweden last night. You know, this country is not part of the Euro Union. This country is not called the United Socialist America Republics. Since when was Sweden THE country to live in.
I mean, sure, maybe everyone has healthcare in these countries, but the healthcare SUCKS. Waiting lists, shortage of medicine, bad doctors.

When I say that Conservatism stands for the rights of individuals, I mean we stand for smaller government. We actually trust people with their own money. We don't think everyone is dumb and hickish, and are not able to make intelligent decisions about their future. We don't want a government that thinks it knows how to run our lives better than we do.

Our forefathers wrote a constitution that made sure we would have a government by the people, not a people by the government.

Now, do we stand for the rights of illegal immigrants.....no, because they have no rights, because they are not legal citizens of this country. 40 years ago, do you think the Spanish language was even close to being a required subject in schools that are in Texas, New Mexico, and California? Ahh, I'm not going to get into cultural takeovers and how they take place over substantial amounts of time.

[DarthKirby001]

By the way, that wasn't a valid point, as America has shown twice now that it is filled with idiots.

So because America is filled with idiots, Americans didn't vote for who they wanted to win? That makes perfect sense...

[Coltaine]

Now, do we stand for the rights of illegal immigrants.....no, because they have no rights, because they are not legal citizens of this country. 40 years ago, do you think the Spanish language was even close to being a required subject in schools that are in Texas, New Mexico, and California? Ahh, I'm not going to get into cultural takeovers and how they take place over substantial amounts of time.

And because they are illegal immigrants you can lock them away forever and even torture them if you might get the feeling they are terrorists?

As for spanish beeing a required language and cultural takeover.
You have opened my eyes. It has been happening all the time. These damn immigrants forced our political leaders to make english an required language. And as if that wasn't bad enough we have to learn a second one too!!!!!1
Maybe i shoulf vote the NPD next time or the Repulblicans. They want to forbid foreign languages in german schools and righly so! These damn immigrants wont take over my country no!

[Hydro]

Kerry would be bad for this economy because we have a free trade economy...simply put.

Socialized Healthcare---bad for the American economy
Hiking taxes---bad for the American economy
Bigger government---bad for the American economy

Note: American economy
America is the greatest nation in the history of the world....why do you think that is?
Maybe these things aren't bad for the French, German, Canadian, or Spanish economies, but these things are bad for the American economy.
Look, someone made a comparison to Sweden last night. You know, this country is not part of the Euro Union. This country is not called the United Socialist America Republics. Since when was Sweden THE country to live in.
I mean, sure, maybe everyone has healthcare in these countries, but the healthcare SUCKS. Waiting lists, shortage of medicine, bad doctors.

When I say that Conservatism stands for the rights of individuals, I mean we stand for smaller government. We actually trust people with their own money. We don't think everyone is dumb and hickish, and are not able to make intelligent decisions about their future. We don't want a government that thinks it knows how to run our lives better than we do.

Our forefathers wrote a constitution that made sure we would have a government by the people, not a people by the government.

Now, do we stand for the rights of illegal immigrants.....no, because they have no rights, because they are not legal citizens of this country. 40 years ago, do you think the Spanish language was even close to being a required subject in schools that are in Texas, New Mexico, and California? Ahh, I'm not going to get into cultural takeovers and how they take place over substantial amounts of time.

You are an idiot and a fool if you believe any of that rubbish.
Coltaine is completely right.
America is a country of IMMIGRANTS.
"Give me your weak, give me your poor, give me your huddled masses."


DarthKirby - No, America is filled with idiots. Idiots vote for Bush. Bush wins re-election. It is quite simple really.

[The.Jolly.Roger]

And because they are illegal immigrants you can lock them away forever and even torture them if you might get the feeling they are terrorists?

As for spanish beeing a required language and cultural takeover.
You have opened my eyes. It has been happening all the time. These damn immigrants forced our political leaders to make english an required language. And as if that wasn't bad enough we have to learn a second one too!!!!!1
Maybe i shoulf vote the NPD next time or the Repulblicans. They want to forbid foreign languages in german schools and righly so! These damn immigrants wont take over my country no!


So you're saying, that there is nothing wrong with letting as many illegal immigrants come across the border as Mexico wants? This is an english speaking country. If you begin surrendering your language, you begin to surrender you soveriegnty. It's a lot more complicated than that, but I don't feel like getting into it right now.
Let's get back to how most of this country agrees with me.

[Sage the Mage]

When I say that Conservatism stands for the rights of individuals, I mean we stand for smaller government. We actually trust people with their own money. We don't think everyone is dumb and hickish, and are not able to make intelligent decisions about their future. We don't want a government that thinks it knows how to run our lives better than we do.
I'll say it again:
The last sentence is negated by wanting to ban abortion and *** marriage.
The rest is negated if you support the neo-conservatives.

[The.Jolly.Roger]

I'll say it again:
The last sentence is negated by wanting to ban abortion and *** marriage.
The rest is negated if you support the neo-conservatives.


Oh, I'm sorry, we are not a secular society without morals either.

[Hydro]

Oh, I'm sorry, we are not a secular society without morals either.

Sad that people even contend that morals are an issue.

[Coltaine]

So you're saying, that there is nothing wrong with letting as many illegal immigrants come across the border as Mexico wants? This is an english speaking country. If you begin surrendering your language, you begin to surrender you soveriegnty. It's a lot more complicated than that, but I don't feel like getting into it right now.
Let's get back to how most of this country agrees with me.

So germany has given up its soverenity by make students lear english, spanish and french? well you can also learn many other languages but these are the most important and english is required.

Were did i say that all Mexicans come over the boarder? please quote me.
I say even illegal immegrants have rights.
Would you say it is ok to torture illegal immegrants? To hold them in custody for several years? (You can send them back to their country all you want. feel free to do so. no sarcasm included)

[Sage the Mage]

Oh, I'm sorry, we are not a secular society without morals either. Fair enough.

You still have to defend the problem of how homeland security and the patroit act represent a smaller government and an increase in individual rights as well.

[The.Jolly.Roger]

Fair enough.

You still have to defend the problem of how homeland security and the patroit act represent a smaller government and an increase in individual rights as well.


Umm...because not too long ago we had 3000 of our people killed by terrorists. 9-11 changed the whole game. If these people are going to start perpetrating attacks on this country with large casualty counts, then obviously we are going to have to take stronger measures to negate these attacks.

I will submit, this is a debatable issue. The rights of individuals are called into question here. The basic question stands, would you be willing to save 3000 people and risk...maybe, the wrongful persecution of 1 individual. Or would you stop the temporary wrongful accusation of 1 individual, thereby weakening our power to stop an attack that could potentially kill 3000 individuals. 9-11 changed the rules, and we have to find some way to adjust to this change because, obviously, we cannot just stay with the previous measure we took.

[Hydro]

Umm...because not too long ago we had 3000 of our people killed by terrorists. 9-11 changed the whole game. If these people are going to start perpetrating attacks on this country with large casualty counts, then obviously we are going to have to take stronger measures to negate these attacks.

I will submit, this is a debatable issue. The rights of individuals are called into question here. The basic question stands, would you be willing to save 3000 people and risk...maybe, the wrongful persecution of 1 individual. Or would you stop the temporary wrongful accusation of 1 individual, thereby weakening our power to stop an attack that could potentially kill 3000 individuals. .

When we start letting terrorism negate the freedoms we have stood by for 200 years, they win.
There is never an excuse for the wrongful imprisonment or torture of another human being, especially not on the scale that we are currently doing it.
Hundreds of thousands of civilians are dead, thousands are wrongfully imprisoned, and thousands more are hungry and without water or sanitation because America is willing for these people to suffer so we may be safer.
3000 People died in 9/11, and it was a tragedy, but more than 100,000 have died in a war that was based on 9/11 yet completely unrelated. Which one is worse? The war, by FAR.

[Sage the Mage]

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Ben Franklin

[Coltaine]

Umm...because not too long ago we had 3000 of our people killed by terrorists. 9-11 changed the whole game. If these people are going to start perpetrating attacks on this country with large casualty counts, then obviously we are going to have to take stronger measures to negate these attacks.

I will submit, this is a debatable issue. The rights of individuals are called into question here. The basic question stands, would you be willing to save 3000 people and risk...maybe, the wrongful persecution of 1 individual. Or would you stop the temporary wrongful accusation of 1 individual, thereby weakening our power to stop an attack that could potentially kill 3000 individuals. 9-11 changed the rules, and we have to find some way to adjust to this change because, obviously, we cannot just stay with the previous measure we took.

To me the picture is more like:
Can you imprison 500+ persons for years. Torture them. Without lawyers, without a court. Sometimes with only a word from a person with their own personal interest (may it be the ransom for terrorists or a general hate for the person). 202 of with even the military seems to think are innocent!

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0819-06.htm
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_23-9-2004_pg7_49

If you want to state numbers. Take the real ones. Your figure of one was wrong at least 20,200%

[The.Jolly.Roger]

Like I said, it's a debatable issue, and I don't believe I took a stance on it. I would say, that I think we need to be very careful in how we meet the challenge of increasing our security because of 9-11.

Other than that....many people have died in this war. However, many people died at the hands of Saddam Hussein before this war as well. I really don't want to get into that conversation either, because it is a long one. But, I will say this. In 40 years, when Iraq is a flourishing democracy, and their citizens have the same freedoms we do....George W. Bush will be known as one of the greatest presidents that we have ever elected. It's not going to be easily attained, but it will be attained. I know our fast food culture would like to see a won war, reformed society, and total retreat within a six month period....but it's not going to happen. We will prevail there, and time can only tell the story of success that will take place.

[Coltaine]

Speaking of Sadam. I just read an articel that all the stuff about WMD was mostly a bluff of him to impress the neibouring countrys. He most likely though that the CIA was well enough informed to know that he was bluffing.

For me it looks like you have already taken a stance Roger. You not said thats the right thing to do but when you read your posts you will notice that you belittle the things.
persucute = torture and trampeling of the rights for an atorny, a court...
temporarly = for some 2 years and counting
1 persone = 500 of thousands depending on the source. 202 who seem to be innocent of charges never made (sound odd aye)

And then all the talk about "saddam was a very evil person". No questions there. But wasn't you the same person that was talking about loosing sovereignity because of learning spanish?
Ah but i think i get it. When the country is evil you can do all you want right?
No matter what the cost (for someone else). You have to pay something for freedom. It does not come by free. (stress on YOU).

[Coltaine]

And while we are at it. We had this subject some months ago.
Back then i was told that Guantanamo was a little hyped by the biased media. Was given some chart from the militar that listed the day of an imprisioned induvidual there.
Don't know anymore who it was, but if you remember: Do you still think the same way?

[Mastgrr]

Welcome to 2007.

Only one year left with this president.

A war based on lies and fought with inadequate resources. As a result today it's not only weakening us as a power militarily and economically, it's creating imbalances in the middle east which Iran now is taking advantage of. All of this while we're letting the Taliban in Afghanistan (who were in it with Al Qaida for real) regain their power.

For shame you people who voted for George W. Bush that day in November 2004. For shame.

This thread is interesting because I remember when I used to spend a lot of time here. This specific thread to me is like looking back at the past through a time capsule because I remember things very accurately. I think it was very fortunate for me to debate these issues here on this website back in the day. It's very fun to read what was said and contrast it with what is going on now.

[rottentomato]

back from the dead post like whoa

[Stigg]

nitro mic flow nice clothes like whoa

While I agree that Bush has sucked more than a little, I can't help but wonder how Kerry would have handled evertyhing. I think both of them did or would have been crappy.