When Will Ganking = Dishonor?

[Idolis]

First, let me clarify that I'm a bona fide pvp junkie. I run around the game looking for a fight. It's fun.

BUT

I never run around looking for an UNFAIR fight.

I really don't understand why high-level players take any time at all to kill those who are 10,15, 20 or more levels below them. Even worse, there are those who seek it out. It's not worth any Honor points and frankly, it's considered by most military cultures to be a sign of cowardice.

Ganking is rampant in WoW. If killing a civilian NPC is worth DH, why isn't killing a basically defenseless opponent worthy of a penalty?

I know there are those who think, "kill them all!, they're the enemy!". But, ultimately, that's a futile and weak stance for anyone to take.

Has Blizzard expressed an opinion about any of this? The tediousness of getting ganked is enough to make me want to quit playing.

And for those of you smug SOBs out there, I'm a Knight-Captain on two servers (these AREN'T the characters getting ganked) and can say truthfully that I've never ganked anyone. I consider that just being weak and petty. But, as I've been building another warrior on Darkspear (37), I can say that the amount of ganking I've experienced has actually increased.

At this point, the only thing that's going to slow it down is penalizing those who do it. And although I can't ever hope for some sort of penalty for lame rogues who wait for you to get in trouble with a few mobs and THEN hit you from behind, I do think it's fair to ask for Blizzard to start policing gank freaks.

[Gaza0469]

Most hardcore PvP's (like me) Like the challenge that you could be level 10 and die to a level 60, its something that keeps you on your toes.

I would advise you to goto a PvE server - here you are pretty much safe anywhere - and you have BG's to go and fight and get all your HPs and HKs

Blizz wanted to give us different types of realms to suit our needs, those that used to play Hardocre Diablo expected a dedicated PvP no rules everything goes server.

And those who used to play Softcore expect to be able to play in peace and go about their daily business.

I think you will really enjoy a PvE server and with BG here you can now get your PvP fill as well :)

[Idolis]

Are you nuts? There's no challenge in being level 10 and getting whacked by a level 60. There's nothing even remotely applicable to "keeping you on your toes" in that scenario. Please.

Being level 40 and taking on two mixed-class level 38s...that'll keep you on your toes.

I'm as hardcore as they come. Reaching and staying at K-C pretty much means pvp non-stop. PvE is a total yawn if you like to fight, i.e., you're missing the point - 'ganking ain't fighting'.

The bottom line is that ganking is fundamental problem in the game. If it continues to be part of the everyday landscape in WoW, then it should at least be a quicker process to rez after getting ganked.

[Lord m]

im inclined 2 agree wit gaza. dont get me wrong, i h8 being nailed by a "??" as much as every1 else, but id much rather have it than not. its all part of the experience.

live it and luv it, or move 2 pve.

and dont go thinking "pve? that sux!" cuz if ur so violiently oposed 2 being nailed that it "makes u want 2 quit"

it might b an idea neway

m

[Gaza0469]

Are you nuts? There's no challenge in being level 10 and getting whacked by a level 60. There's nothing even remotely applicable to "keeping you on your toes" in that scenario. Please.

I never said there was a challenge in a level 10 fighting a level 60.

The challenge is for a level 10 to level up to level 60 with PvE challenges, ganking challenges etc.

Being level 40 and taking on two mixed-class level 38s...that'll keep you on your toes.

definately - thats the beauty of the PvP system you never know who your next contest will be.

granted that from 23-35 its a tough slog - but once you get to around 35-40 then its usually always even fights.

I'm as hardcore as they come.

Sorry I dont think thats true - if you were then you would want more challenges, not less.


Reaching and staying at K-C pretty much means pvp non-stop. PvE is a total yawn if you like to fight, i.e., you're missing the point - 'ganking ain't fighting'.

True - but Im sure it would get boring if you knew that every fight was a 50/50 match.

I wouldnt want to play in that environment where every fight was a gimme. I like the fact that when I step outside of a town that anything can and will go.

The bottom line is that ganking is fundamental problem in the game. If it continues to be part of the everyday landscape in WoW, then it should at least be a quicker process to rez after getting ganked.

Dont play any other MMORGS

Wow has the best death system out - most MMORGs let the enemy player steal your equipment when you die, and all sorts of nasty things like experience loss.

In wow, you dont loose item durability, or experience if another player kills you.

Its a very nice system.

I can see your point of view though - perhaps one day Blizz might make a realm thats in between PvE and PvP where everything is like PvE exept if you see someone 10 levels +/- then you are both auto flagged or something.

Why dont you like PvE realms?

I mean it sounds like BG would be ideal for you - fair fights.

Isnt that what you are after? And you can quest in peace.

[Can0mark]

I mean it sounds like BG would be ideal for you - fair fights.

Not entirely true, it are supposed to be fair fights but you will have times when the opposing faction has 10 lvl 46-50 (it could also be 56-60 or 36-40) and your faction only has 10 lvl 41-44. I also did WSG a couple of times and we had 6 people and the opposing faction had the full 10. A friend of mine even experienced 3on10. So the BG's are supposed to be fair fights... but around 50% (yes 50) of the time they arent fair at all.

[Daishi]

The reason why they aren't going to set DH to low level kills is very simple. Tactics in Raids.

So you set killing lowbies as Dishonorable, so you get guilds gather up everyone, say 5 lvl50+, a few mixed mid lvlers, and 10 or more lvl10 and lower characters. They all group up and charge into SS or wherever they are raiding. Now the opposition warriors are and direct fighters are fine, they can pick out the high enough lvl ones so they can't get the DH, but in the end the low lvlers can pile on them and they are going to have to kill a few of them - automatic dishonor even though they are doing their best to 1) stay alive and 2) defend against a valid raid. The Mages are even worse off. Some of the best PvP things they can do are AOE and they are bound to kill a lot of newbies if they drop a high lvl AOE.. again instant DH even though they are defending and not actually after ganking people.

Its also impossible to say who attacked first with things like AOE spells. The mage might have been attacked by one of them, but will get a lot more as they charge towards him to try and bring him down.

So... don't DH if the target is in a raid group... fine, just set up a Raid with the high lvl players and get a lowbie to /follow someone in the Raid. Same effect, and you can't omit the lowbie as a DH based on the raid group.

Yes its a pain, but simply put how can you impliment a DH system fairly when there would always be holes to exploit. Better to not have DH against players and just not give people HKs for lowbie kills. They hope being they will get bored of gaining no benefit from it. If you see someone PvPing lowbies gather up some high level mates and force them out of the area.

[Gaza0469]

Not entirely true, it are supposed to be fair fights but you will have times when the opposing faction has 10 lvl 46-50 (it could also be 56-60 or 36-40) and your faction only has 10 lvl 41-44.

That is very unusal. The game actually mixes up levels and numbers. ( hence you could have a level 60 horde, 8x level 40 hordes, then on alliance have 9* level 42 alliance.

The way the logarathim works is to balance the levels, so it is possible to have players in there who would usually be to low to join BG and players past the level cap, but it should balance out with levels and numbers.


I also did WSG a couple of times and we had 6 people and the opposing faction had the full 10.

The game would then auto abort in 5 minutes. A minimum of 8v8 is required, you may of had a 8v10 game, however your levels would of been higher to compensate.


A friend of mine even experienced 3on10

Again the game would abort automatically after 5 minutes. perhaps your friend choose not to hang around.

Its also impossible to say who attacked first with things like AOE spells. The mage might have been attacked by one of them, but will get a lot more as they charge towards him to try and bring him down.

That is correct thats why it will be unlikely that they will ever do anything about dishonourable kills.

[Slickice]

I'd have to agree with these guys, It would subtract from the gameplay to make ganks DH... Wouldn't you miss that adrenaline rush as you see 3 lev60's heading your way on mounts as you try to hide or prey they don't stop... Just like if it were real life... hence role playing/realizm

Slickice out :bow:

[coldhammer]

Problem on PVE is they cant kill u so they sit and camp individual creatures u need or kill people u are escorting for quests. And u cant stop them. Yes u can try to hit the creature first as it spawns, but shamans simply throw down totems sit down and wait. And if its someone u are escorting game over. So no dont move to PVE server from a PVP if your are tired of people acting like jerks they can do it anywere.

[Avenstar]

If killing someone significantly below your level was penalized, what would stop these low levels from forming raid parties and hunting down higher levels, knowing that they can attack without retribution? The system in WoW is fine. You are not penalized for dieing. And, WoW is a RPG, even if you don't play on a roleplaying server. You chose your side, and with that choice you agreed to be the target of all enemies. If you played Warcraft 1-3, did you demand that the orc player not attack your humans because you weren't ready? Stop thinking about levels and start thinking about WAR, because that is what PvP is all about.

All ganking is is a term used by the weak to draw simpathy to their death. Stop protesting and start living.

[mikeh]

Whats the point of this thread? People getting ganked and then getting complaints about it? And could you elaborate on " We should stop thinking of lvlvs and start thinking of WAR"

[fallen angel of satan]

i have to agree, ganking is part of the game its what gives its atmosphere. I see a horde I dont think player i think enemy scumm, if I see they are questing or if they wave at me or something ill leave them alone because they clearly dont want a fight, but ill give an example of why i kill low lvls i saw some rogue ahead waved at him he promtly vanished but because of the lvl difference i could watched him all the way behind me promtly i marked him to show him i coukld see him but he didnt give up came all the way behind me hit me, so gave him 1 last chance with /laugh the idiot carried on, a lvl difference of 20 means dead in about 3 hits :/

but that was his decision, the anoying thing is when you dont make the choice but thats the whole fun of the world of WARcraft. blizzard have done really well and created a great feeling of hate between the two factions.

As for introducing dishonor that would ruin my fun killing/dieng to high lvl chars. since I have hit 44 I have found that no melee fight is certain irelevant of how high their lvl admitdely ranged people much higher than me can eat me for breakfast buts thats just life lol :D that wont stop me aiming a shot against that lvl ?? priest passing through the vally below.

wow i waffle far too much :D i failed to say i spend about 75% of my time dueling or in pvp. the anoying thing is corpse camping but careful play can get you away from corpse campers with no problems

Richard

[Strajder]

hmm I had some pretty interesting ides on PVP thes are my ideas

1.that they give you the opurtunety that you can put wanted letters for players who ganked you let's say you get ganked by a lvl 60 rouge an you go to a major city and put out a wanted poster for that player and you put out a reward and you have your revenge

2.that you get some special rewrds for killing a enemy High Warlord & Grand Marshal like you become a hounerd warior for one day and get special prices and don't know

3.then that eery month ther be a gint battle in all the neutral zones and that the side that wines in more of the zones get some bonuses

4.this is my favorite ide that you can become a mercenary that you can for the right payment fight for the hored or allince imagine that your in a big fight and you see y bunch of aour fellow horde players coming from your back and your thinking YEH WE GOT REINFOCMENT'S now wear going to win and they just start to slash you back open


wouldn't that be fun think about my ides and tell me what you think

[Chairman Kaga]

If killing someone significantly below your level was penalized, what would stop these low levels from forming raid parties and hunting down higher levels, knowing that they can attack without retribution?

It's very simple. If you decied to randomly nuke some lowbie....dishonorable. If they attack you first....well, no dishonor in defending yourself. That alone would make PvP servers bearable. As it stands now, PvP servers are simply where all the griefers from Battle.net have moved on to.

If you played Warcraft 1-3, did you demand that the orc player not attack your humans because you weren't ready?

Actually, that's precisely what we did when we played War3. See, we realized that 2-minute zerg fest games are only fun maybe the first couple times. From that point on, we wanted a real-time strategy game that actually involved strategy.

Stop thinking about levels and start thinking about WAR, because that is what PvP is all about.

You know, even war has rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_war). It's not a free-for-all, unless of course you're some sort of social psychopath who could care less about later reprisal.

All ganking is is a term used by the weak to draw simpathy to their death. Stop protesting and start living.

What astounds me about most PvP servers is that these are supposed to be the "ultra-hardcore" players -- the ones that thirst for battle -- and yet 90% of them go trolling for the easiest kills possible.

I'll stick to PvE, where if I do get into PvP, at least it will be meaningful.

[Gaza0469]

Actually, that's precisely what we did when we played War3. See, we realized that 2-minute zerg fest games are only fun maybe the first couple times. From that point on, we wanted a real-time strategy game that actually involved strategy.

You have to be able to pull it off though - if you use all your materials to make the lowest cost unit and zerg then there is a good chance you will fail if your opponet has been building a smaller army and some good base defences, should you fail you will have insufficient resources to defend your own base when they strike back.

Any tactic is valid - whether you choose to go all out defense to repulse their inital invasion, or if you go all out ofence, or even some combination of the two.

there never were any right or wrong tactics, just tactics that suited your individual playstyle. Zerging is a valid strategy. A win is a win regardless of the strategy employed.

If you want to defend versus zergers then build your own zerg army and good base defences then you will win easily.



It's not a free-for-all, unless of course you're some sort of social psychopath who could care less about later reprisal.

We are not saying its a free for all.

A level 1 orc warrior or a level 1 human mage is a warrior never the less. They are not civillians and they have commited themselves to the art of war.

In real life when you go to war there is no way for you to determine if the guy you are fighting is fresh from military school private or if he is a battle hardened Commando. War is war. The basic principles are that if someone surrenders then you shouldnt kill them, if they are unarmed its not ethical to kill them and you shouldnt go around killing civillians.

Same for world of warcraft you are commissioned to goto war, and that is what it is all about on a PvP server.



What astounds me about most PvP servers is that these are supposed to be the "ultra-hardcore" players -- the ones that thirst for battle -- and yet 90% of them go trolling for the easiest kills possible.

Thats not true at all. What evidence do you have to back that claim?

Lets look at my server shadow moon right now.

There are 27 level 55-60's on at the moment and guess where they are ?

Most of them are either at IF or at the Alterac Valley BG.



Most PvP players wont go out of their way to grief other low level players unless these happen :

- An enemy player just killed one of your guildies, so you decide to go and get revenge for your guild.

- Lets say a level 45 human was just ganked by a level 60 orc, then that same human runs into a level 35 orc, there is a good chance that he will gank the horde just because it happened to him a few moments before.

- A high level player runs past, and lets say an orc targets him, as soon as someone targets me I tend to attack. If you dont want to target someone then simply mouse over them, its that easy.

- Some players in role playing guilds on PvP servers typically have well developed storylines for thier players ( i.e parents killed by horde, so they dispise all horde and kill all horde on sight )

- There is no HPs or HKs for low level kills, most players want to maximise their game time, and therefore will seek kills that reward them. You will notice that low level ganking is becomming less and less on all pvp servers.


I'll stick to PvE, where if I do get into PvP, at least it will be meaningful

Which is where players who dont like the extra challenge should go. Some players dont have the time to waste getting ganked all of the time, and if you dont have that time you should play PvE.

Since even on PvE you can still have your share of PvP fights.

I think this is the biggest concern for many players is that they say have 5 hours to play a week and they dont want to waste 3 of them running to their corpse, which is a fair call and a PvE server really is a better choice for you.

I started PvE back in beta - it was fun. Then I thought I would give PvP a try and I havent looked back since, nothing compares to thrill of being attacked by impossible odds, then calling in reinforcements and having massive hunts.

It just adds a whole new element into the game.

But then again I was the player that had HC players on Diablo II because I thrived on that level of difficulty.

[SquirrelyWrath]

I find being a rogue and using assassin skills to be part of the PVP game of ganking. I Think its funny when I gank someone and know there going "WTFUXORS OMGOZZLE YOU FUBARTWAT!" but they can't say it to me. Because I can't understand what they say. And they have to repair because they die so much, or have to log out for 20-30 minutes just so I get bored and leave. I don't gank because its petty or I think theres something special to do it. I gank because I enjoy making trouble for other people.

[fallen angel of satan]

I find being a rogue and using assassin skills to be part of the PVP game of ganking. I Think its funny when I gank someone and know there going "WTFUXORS OMGOZZLE YOU FUBARTWAT!" but they can't say it to me. Because I can't understand what they say. And they have to repair because they die so much, or have to log out for 20-30 minutes just so I get bored and leave. I don't gank because its petty or I think theres something special to do it. I gank because I enjoy making trouble for other people.

wrath your just plain evil lol!

otherwise i agree wholeheartedly with gazza although i didnt have that many HC d2 chars i got pissed off when lost a few lvl90+ ones hehe.

Richard

[Berlidan]

I must say this is my first MMORG. So when I first started getting into the PVPing at around lvl 25+ I was a little skeptical. I found it abit intreaging at first, but soon ran into my first time being a victim to ganking. I was with a couple of friends and this lvl ?? kept slaughtering us. We were a little perturbed at first, but once we recruited some of our own very high level friends to help us murder this alliance punk over and over and over camping his corpse till he finally had to respawn at the graveyard. BOY THAT FELT GOOD!! Thats when I knew I was addicted to PVP. So my point is, if someone is ganking you just recruit some friends. We are always there to help out in slaughtering some alliance!! Trust me the rush of punking a guy who just punked you is much better feeling than getting all angry about it.

[Twofish]

I have been up until now a 'nice' pvp player, not attacking other players when they were busy with mobs or if they were around 3 lvls lower than me.
All this have happened to me over and over again and i have usually not bothered to revenge anything basically because itr didnt feel right andi didnt want to be that kind of 'unfair' player, and i thought it was something wrong with the whole pvp, since it happened over and over again.

After reading here what other have to say, i have changed my mind.
From now on i will attack every allicance scum i see, unless i am certain i will loose, or if they are 10 lvls lower than me (if thats the honor point limit thing).
No corpse camping tho (unless they deserve it)

I think i will have more fun now

btw, im a lvl48 tauren shaman

[KalziEast]

Lol... Level 47 UD Rogue, just this morning about 11 hours ago a level 50 Gnome Rogue and a level 49 Human Paladin were running around killing things, they weren't skinning them so I would take the leather and kill one of my own and skin it and see they've killed 1 more and are killing another one so I run up and skin that one, and they kill the other one so I skin it too, the Paladin waves and runs to another, I run up to my own and start killing it, the Rogue turns on PVP and jumps around in front of the turtle and runs back and forth so I won't skin it without hitting him, so I run and skin the Paladin's and come back to skin that one, I skin it and run to another Turtle, again, he jumps around, so I get it down to about 1/10th of it's health and I press " 2 " ( For Sinister Strike ) it dies right before I use it, the Rogue chases after me so I put on " Dodge " ( +50% dodge increase for 19 seconds ) he kills me... So I cuss a couple times out loud and run the 2 minutes to my corpse and get a good distance from my body in ghost form and right when I am in my body I stealth, I move to this one turtle and skin it and I see him coming towards me, I sprint and stealth for a little bit until my PVP turns off...

Point Proven? 90% of alliance can't fight 1 on 1 unless they have a friend around the same level near them to help 5 seconds after the battle starts, or they have to be 3+ levels higher.

[Klandor]

Going back to earlier posts, if Im walking along the road on my undead bony pony and see a grey lvl ally then generally ill leave them alone -Occasionaly Ill kill them (depending on the current wow annoyance factor). I am undead and would have thought it is in the spirit of the char not to have a compassionate bone in my body (no pun intended). When I was a lower lvl sometimes I got ganked and sometimes I didnt. Aint no point *****1ng.

[WingedNazgul]

Q: When Will Ganking = Dishonor?

A: Hopefully Never.

[Diesl]

This is my take.. If you spend even one sec. climing of your mount to kill someone 20 lvls lower than you PVP or not this would lead me to think the following .
1. U suck and can't beat people at your lvl
2. U suck and are a A-hole
3. U just suck.

I have 2 60 and working on my last I love PVP and if they are green to me then they will get killed but Grey comeone give me a break. Why waist yuour time and what do you get from it. do you whisper your guild mates " Hey guys I just wasted the 32 Mage!!!" reply would probly go " Aren't u 60 ??"
Just stupid to me and a waste of time. You get nothing from it besides being an a-hole period. So if you are a self applauding a-hole go for it...loser :happy14: I personally would like for u to gank my alt I always fly one of my 60's down to were he will be and just a log in away. And I will camp you till you log out .. JMO..lol..... :bigclap:

[Baboon]

I find being a rogue and using assassin skills to be part of the PVP game of ganking. I Think its funny when I gank someone and know there going "WTFUXORS OMGOZZLE YOU FUBARTWAT!" but they can't say it to me. Because I can't understand what they say. And they have to repair because they die so much, or have to log out for 20-30 minutes just so I get bored and leave. I don't gank because its petty or I think theres something special to do it. I gank because I enjoy making trouble for other people.

I play PvP, not because I like to get around with people like you, but because I hate PvE, it's just stupid to quest next to an enemy and just ignore each other.

But stories like yours always make me feel really bad about it. I get the most fun out of ganking lame gankers.

[James McMurray]

Ganking is just a way for insecure losers with self esteem issues to make themselves feel like a big man (or woman).

[Isabeau]

Most hardcore PvP's (like me) Like the challenge that you could be level 10 and die to a level 60, its something that keeps you on your toes.

I would advise you to goto a PvE server - here you are pretty much safe anywhere - and you have BG's to go and fight and get all your HPs and HKs




I couldn't agree more, part of the reason for playing on a pvp server is the challenge you face leveling when you know at any moment you could be killed by a player from the opposing faction. If that isn't what a player is looking for, then a PvP server is really not for them. Ganking just isn't a word that applies on a PvP server, it's part of what people are there to do and have done to them.

This is far too much adreneline for me to handle, which is why I play on a PvE server :)

The only alternative I think might be viable at some point is for blizzard to have another ruleset that would not allow players to engage in combat if their levels were not in a certain range...but I'm betting that would not be very popular and also difficult to implement.

Getting dishonor hasn't stopped people from ganking civilian NPCs, and I don't see it stopping hardcore pvp'ers from killing lowbie chars.

[extispeX]

Point Proven? 90% of alliance can't fight 1 on 1 unless they have a friend around the same level near them to help 5 seconds after the battle starts, or they have to be 3+ levels higher.


Riight... generalization ftw. I could tell you a thing or two about Undead Rogues. On Stormscale, which is where i have my main the UD rogues are just maaad gankers. Of course not all of them, but many. No sides are worse gankers than the other.

[Astayanax]

Ganking just isn't a word that applies on a PvP server, it's part of what people are there to do and have done to them.


Actually this is a contradiction. If it isn't a word that applies, then it is an instance that isn't used.

Anyway, it is the only reason why I chosed to play on a PvE server. I like a challenge as much as anyone else but a) dying instantly to people X levels higher than you b) running away from them or c) doing the same thing with a ton of people to opponents that you can swat away like a fly is hardly a challenge to me; more like a slaughter. I would love the thrill of some similiar lvl opponent spying the same resource as I do and proceeding to have a good fight for it; but being realistic I know it would never happen for the avg person don't go into fights that they know they have a chance of losing in.

So while I may miss the thrill of the hunt, and the ambushes; the no ganking pretty much makes up for it.

[Isabeau]

Actually this is a contradiction. If it isn't a word that applies, then it is an instance that isn't used.




Haha, whatever the choice of words and whether or not it applies isn't the point. The point is...it's a PvP server and if you don't like being taken out by players of significantly higher level it's time to play on a PvE server. It will not stop happening unless Blizzard blocks people from engaging in combat unless they are in a specific level range...I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

[Diesl]

Haha, whatever the choice of words and whether or not it applies isn't the point. The point is...it's a PvP server and if you don't like being taken out by players of significantly higher level it's time to play on a PvE server. It will not stop happening unless Blizzard blocks people from engaging in combat unless they are in a specific level range...I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.
The problem with it is not that you can do it . It's that idiots like you want to do it. The fact that you think it's cool is the problem. Like I said do it to my alt it will only happen once then we'll see who waits till who gets bored. And Squirrlywrath you DO NOT have to repair when you get killed by a pvp player, . only mobs can damage your gear ..... :rolleyes:

[shadracht]

I think the simple thing that they should (need) to do is to make it so you cannot tell the level of the guys on the other side ever.

I mean, really, unless you recognize the name, why should you know that that mage over there is way higher in level than you unless he just pulled out a tac-nuke? Then you could never have people crying gank, because they didn't know you were way weaker than them. They just knew you were the enemy.

And the gankers couldn't just hunt down people they know are easy fights, because for all they know that's a lvl 60 running around the newbie zone.

Think about it, it would solve a lot of problems.

[PeteBest]

this latest idea--not knowing the level of someone on the opposite faction--appeals the most to me out of any of the concepts discussed. i mean, that's the most real way things could be--if you see some dude walking down the street, you can maybe tell their strength based on how they look visually (big muscles or scrawny, large or small size) but you don't see a box floating over their head with their "stats."

i just started my first alt on a PvP server and am already anticipating being frustrated a lot. i understand that killing the opposite faction is true to the game's storyline, regardless of level, but that does nothing to explain the concept of corpse camping, which is an in-game (NOT in-story) device designed to simply treat someone else like dirt. anyone who'd do something like that is to me simply an a**hole. kill the char once, great, you've had your easy kill and remained true to the game; go to the graveyard to kill them over and over again, and you're just being nasty.

[KalziEast]

Riight... generalization ftw. I could tell you a thing or two about Undead Rogues. On Stormscale, which is where i have my main the UD rogues are just maaad gankers. Of course not all of them, but many. No sides are worse gankers than the other.

**Rolls eyes** I don't gank for 1... I rarely even PVP, normally just PVP guildies and stuff... Also, when did I say " Alliance ganks more then Horde " I never did, I said that Alliance will only fight you if they're 3+ levels higher or have 3 friends nearby, don't confuse my words.

[AeroJonesy]

I said that Alliance will only fight you if they're 3+ levels higher or have 3 friends nearby, don't confuse my words.

I really doubt that. So level 58-60 Horde players must not get attacked very often then? Good luck making a generalization about the playing practices of all those who play alliance.

[Castor Krieg]

Reroll on PvE server = most overused argument ever.

The problem does not lie in PvP or Honor concept, the problem is it doesn't work. I love to PvP some ally in the middle of Badlands. etc. Ganking is not HONOR. Some idiot told me that ppl have various definitions of honor, I would like to hear that from a ganker's perspective. Most of the time gankers are sad ppl, who either play to much WoW, or they take this game to seriously. Recently the following tactics had become the most popular:

Either gank someone 10lvls below or bring a group of at leat 3 ppl.

Example: me killing mobs in Uldaman, a rogue comes, I beat the crap out of him. He comes again, gets wasted again. Chat spam: UDEN, UDEN, GOTH UDEN! Druid lvl60 shows up = I end dead. Why should I, if all I wanted was to respond to some moron who tried to do me when fighting 2 lvl35 elites?

As said before, ganking is not HONOR, it makes you pathetic. Noone cares about how uber you are, when you show it on a lvl20 player. Having said that, I don't think it will change, we cannot expect Blizz to have any idea about honor issues, mostly because they don't give a damn. I also suspect many ppl play this game for a sole purpose to ruin the game of others. So it will go on, idiots as poster before will tell you: "Roll on PvE, dude!"

[DvO]

On Stormscale I have a pet-peeve against a UD rogue called Gankerinnen. And he does exactly what it says on the box. He's a 60 who spends his time around GZ, SS, even Badlands - anywhere where there are large amounts of sub-50 players, and he ganks them. Over and over and over and over again. Sure Blizzard implemented the Honorless Target debuff, but he doesn't get any honor anyway, so the second you step off that griff, BANG, ambush, backstab, dead. I hate the anti-social 16-year old ******, I mean, ganker - what effect can it possibly have when you've killed 200 players in a day and have 0 HK's.

I love PvP, I love the rush of doing everything correct and STILL being pushed right to the edge. I love the few seconds before an engagement when you size up your opponent, build a strategy, then go for it. But I don't understand people who wait until you're engaged in combat with 2 mobs, down to 50% health and then they attack. I may be green on your screen, but really, where's the honor? It's all just a game, and I think it'd be hundreds of times more fun if everyone kept in mind how they'd feel if the equivalent happened to them. Not preaching Jesus, just saying that if you hate getting ambushed, why do it to others who will feel exactly the same?

If a person waves at me, I leave them alone. If they look shifty (like every rogue out there - just because you can go invisible and wait for a sure win doesn't mean you should), I may keep a close eye on them, usually pulling mobs so I always have a direct line of sight. If he stealths and doesn't reappear, I stealth away too. I like world PvP, I really do, but the absence of fair fights is what ruins it. Battlegrounds is much more of an adrenaline rush for me.

[shweb]

reroll pve, seriously i hate these posts, reroll if you don't like it

[Castor Krieg]

reroll pve, seriously i hate these posts, reroll if you don't like it
I hate answers like that. Why must I reroll? You stop ganking! That's easy!

Seriously, why is it always "ganked fault", and never "ganker fault"? Yes, retards, I know it's a PvP server! Is it morons-killing-30lvls-below server? Seems so! Blizz, instead of adding stuff get some kids to go back to learning, instead of playing games.

[Isabeau]

The problem with it is not that you can do it . It's that idiots like you want to do it. The fact that you think it's cool is the problem. Like I said do it to my alt it will only happen once then we'll see who waits till who gets bored. And Squirrlywrath you DO NOT have to repair when you get killed by a pvp player, . only mobs can damage your gear ..... :rolleyes:

LOL, like I said if you don't want to get killed don't play on a PVP server. I play on a PvE server so your assessment of me is incorrect. I have played on a PvP server in another game and I didn't whine when the level 50s ganked me when I was level 10. Yeah it was even more difficult because there were no uncontested zones to level in. Stop whining or switch to PvE, that is your only real choice. :)

[mortic]

If you are playing as alliance on a horde dominant pvp server, it is a challenge to get to level 60; this challenge sometimes can be much more interesting than grinding the BGs for your ranks.

Alot of people don't see avoiding and dealing with ganking as a challenge, simply because they want to take the easiest possible road to grind for their pvp rankings. I personally know 2 person who are playing horde on a horde dominant server, and are ranked pretty high (both are warlord ranks). When maelstrom was open, they both wanted to try the new rp-pvp server as alliance. Needless to say, they both quit a week and a half later when their characters are in the mid-lvl 30 and couldn't handle the gankings of the horde dominant server.

[Diesl]

LOL, like I said if you don't want to get killed don't play on a PVP server. I play on a PvE server so your assessment of me is incorrect. I have played on a PvP server in another game and I didn't whine when the level 50s ganked me when I was level 10. Yeah it was even more difficult because there were no uncontested zones to level in. Stop whining or switch to PvE, that is your only real choice. :)
Ok i'll stop whinning what Carebear server are you on so we can go do butt loads of quest with each other WWWEEEEEEE!!! sigh.. :happy65:

[bassanator]

just to let you know if you play on blackrock and your in STV alot i will gank any alliance i see.... i am a 60 rogue and i find it fun to do what was done to me when i was there. i will go there at any time just to screw with people and piss them off so that the bring there 60 friends and then i can kill them also... i was in stv raid ganking over by nessingways killing a 60 pally about 8 times.... it was so much fun.

ganking is part of the game. and if makes you feel better i am 22 years old and i live in cali.

so once again if you dont like it go play pve.... or get to 60 and come find the gankers and kill them.

but if you have been ganked by me on blackrock... hahahahahaha.... i will do it again

[Pandra]

I don't what is better ganking low lvl people or just sapping them over and over again.

[Diesl]

Be a man go gank in the East and west PL. Oh wait that would mean honer and the possability you would get killed ..huh how stupid of me . I have a 60 Mage on Blackrock perhaps we'll meet .. actually when and where rogue boy..You talk alot of crap lets see if you can back it up.. this ain't STV.... You better have more than the thrash blade and and the sword of omen :whistle:

[5zigen]

I gotta agree with the OP. Ganking = griefing and drawing the line between that and any other type of bs griefing. I recently rolled on a pvp server and I love the whole pvp aspect when its not someone 30 levels higher killing anyone they see.

Really though, whats the difference between griefing and just ganking with higher leveled characters. Either way you are accomplishing nothing and just pissing somone else off? So when does it become wrong. Is it ok to corpse camp and have a friend graveyard camp (incase they try to spirit res)? Is it ok to wait at the border of ashenvale feigning death as a hunter with a stealthed pet wiating for some unsuspecting teen to run by and having your pet completely obliterate them? Is it alright to go somewhere like spintertree post with a few high levels and camp the inn? All of it is essentially the same, so i guess its ok to do all these things?

[Pandra]

I gotta agree with the OP. Ganking = griefing and drawing the line between that and any other type of bs griefing. I recently rolled on a pvp server and I love the whole pvp aspect when its not someone 30 levels higher killing anyone they see.

Really though, whats the difference between griefing and just ganking with higher leveled characters. Either way you are accomplishing nothing and just pissing somone else off? So when does it become wrong. Is it ok to corpse camp and have a friend graveyard camp (incase they try to spirit res)? Is it ok to wait at the border of ashenvale feigning death as a hunter with a stealthed pet wiating for some unsuspecting teen to run by and having your pet completely obliterate them? Is it alright to go somewhere like spintertree post with a few high levels and camp the inn? All of it is essentially the same, so i guess its ok to do all these things?



It's all about having fun. If you are on a pvp server, then everything goes. It's war there are no rules. If you flag yourself on a PVE server, then the same rules apply. I get tired of a lvl 30 seeing two lvl 60s going at it then joining the battle, I find camping them to teach them a lession is the right thing to do. Then again I rolled a rogue for a reason, I like sneaking around and fighting dirty.

Nothing better then mind control a hunter and having them kill thier own pet, then killing them.

[mesonm]

Be a man go gank in the East and west PL. Oh wait that would mean honer and the possability you would get killed ..huh how stupid of me . I have a 60 Mage on Blackrock perhaps we'll meet .. actually when and where rogue boy..You talk alot of crap lets see if you can back it up.. this ain't STV.... You better have more than the thrash blade and and the sword of omen :whistle:

I have a lvl 47 mage...Are you specced fire or frost? Equal lvl rogues are hard for me to kill...Do you have a technique you'd recommend?

[Xal]

DHK points... I think we could use them. Those who want to gank can still do it, they just have to deal with the fact that because they chose to PvP with little to no challenge, if they want PvP rewards they'll have to work that much harder.

Utterly eliminating the possibility of ganking... I have a problem with that. But giving a minor penalty to people for deliberately choosing to fight people who can't fight back... no probs there.

I'd have no problem with getting a DHK point or two for blowing the **** out of a low-level rogue. If your only way to kill someone is to wait for them to have no mana or health left... well, have fun walking to your body.

Heh. Level 16 rogue attacked my horse as I was walking through Silverpine to help a guildie through Shadowfang Keep. It was almost pathetic watching him go from full HP to none with one fireblast...

Edit: To kill an equal level rogue, Frost Nova and Fireball are your friends; polymorph as well. Sheep them once, they break it w/trinket, nova, sheep (resist that one, buddy) Pyroblast, (Fireball+PoM'd Pyroblast if possible) fireblast, scorch if you can, cone of cold, blink, reapply damage as needed. They should be mostly dead. Blink through them if possible; that confuses them. Pyroblast/fireball is a requirement... the DoT will keep them from restealthing.

[bassanator]

in blackrock my in game name is bassanator... 60 undead rogue. no mc gear.... main hand gut ripper with fiery enchant off hand is dal rends off hand sword with +15 agi enchant.

300 alch.... so i will have frost and fire protection. along with agility buff.

bring it on.... if i die oh well i dont care.... i dont get durability loss from pvp so who cares just makes me try harder

[5zigen]

DHK points... I think we could use them. Those who want to gank can still do it, they just have to deal with the fact that because they chose to PvP with little to no challenge, if they want PvP rewards they'll have to work that much harder.

Utterly eliminating the possibility of ganking... I have a problem with that. But giving a minor penalty to people for deliberately choosing to fight people who can't fight back... no probs there.

I'd have no problem with getting a DHK point or two for blowing the **** out of a low-level rogue. If your only way to kill someone is to wait for them to have no mana or health left... well, have fun walking to your body.



Exactly... you shouldnt be able to up your honor on the same day you spend killing severly honorless targets. I mean yeah it pretty neat when ppl call in l vl 60 rogues because you kill them but the game would be much more fun if there was incentive for them to call in people of similar levels to try to fight you as opposed to lvl 60s to completely obliterate your lvl 35 -40 char...

It's just stupid but as long as it stays that way theres no reason to not be a total dick and just gank people. Nah mean? Its in the game so why not ruin peoples day... there are no downsides. might as well just ruin some people in aastraanars night.

The game shouldnt stop you from ganking. there should be discouragement though. At least imo.

[Diesl]

I have a lvl 47 mage...Are you specced fire or frost? Equal lvl rogues are hard for me to kill...Do you have a technique you'd recommend?
I have tried Arcane, Frost and fire. To be honest I have not played him in a very long time. I will log him on today shake the rust of and check his spec.and go look for the bad ass 60 UD rogue that is king gankster in STV ( I bet his mom is so proud). I am pretty sure he is fire though. As far as fighting rogues pvp??? They will just wait till you are fighting something or low on mana before they attack. I usually 3 or 4 hit rogues from what I remember. They have low HP once they are unable to sneek up behind you anymore they are done.

[Diesl]

in blackrock my in game name is bassanator... 60 undead rogue. no mc gear.... main hand gut ripper with fiery enchant off hand is dal rends off hand sword with +15 agi enchant.

300 alch.... so i will have frost and fire protection. along with agility buff.

bring it on.... if i die oh well i dont care.... i dont get durability loss from pvp so who cares just makes me try harder
Cats eye and perception ..... I'll make it quick and painless. where do you normally camp the 30's in STv big stuff . I'll meet ya there

[bassanator]

ok diesl message me on aim or yahoo when i am on usually at night on west coast time and we will go find a place to fight... and if you have vent i will let you into my server so i can talk to you while i do it....



also i dont camp in stv i go there for liek 30 min when im waiting for ab to gank or when i have a friend that is getting ganked there i go help him out.

[Diesl]

ok deisl message me on aim or yahoo when i am on usually at night on west coast time and we will go find a place to fight... and if you have vent i will let you into my server so i can talk to you while i do it....
Cool I have vent also... C-ya soon.

[Duinhir]

I can see both sides of the issue. As a low level player, I'd hate to get ganked over and over again by the opposing faction (which is why I'm on a PvE server)...but at the same time, the role player in me has no problem with it, due to this being a WAR between Horde and Alliance. As someone else pointed out, in war, what do I care if I've killed a green private, or a veteran Special Forces unit? My aim and goal is simply to defeat the enemy...and that means killing/capturing any enemy I see.

Suffice it to say, I don't see WoW changing the current way things work when it comes to PvP, nor do I think they should. The Role Player in me accepts the fact that I may get offed by a higher level opposing faction player or NPC. It's the chance I take when venturing near enemies.

So, if you don't like getting ganked all the time, as others have suggested, go to a PvE server, where things are much better balanced. WoW is my first MMORPG, and I have to say, that I'm enjoying it immensely. I like BGs now that I've tried them. PvP is a blast, but I want to play it on my own terms right now, while I enjoy the rest of the game. That's what makes PvE so nice for me right now. I can PvP if I want to in certain situations, and not worry about it when I just want to work on quests/instances.

-Duinhir
30 Dwarven Priest

P.S. I was given major kudos by a couple of players for being a priest, and having the chutzpah to actually PvP in the first place. No, I dont' get a lot of kills...but it's fun all the same. I role play my character, and thus, a lot of times I'm helping a flag runner stay healthy as we return the flag...or I'll keep teammates healthy as long as I can when they're engaged with a group of Horde. It's all about the story, the challenge, and the fun. I LOVE WoW! :)

[herrhav0k]

I gank ally greys simply because I was ganked by ?? ally so much when I was a lowbie. It's a vicious cycle, but I'm happy to contribute to it, and will continue to do so. Last thing we need is a PVP server going soft.

[bassanator]

so last night on blackrock me and 2 other 60's were ganking in ashenvale at astranaar. and we killed the windrider npc 2 times so people could fly in but couldnt leave then we killed about 100 gaurds cause they kept spawning and we kiled any lvl 20-28 ally we saw. it was fun we did it for about 30min. then it got alittle old. but it was still fun to gank all the lowbies and kill there FP. finally i think 1 only 1 55 preist came and we killed her 2 times then she left.


but it was a good time and i would love to do it again...

im trying to get a lvl 60 hunter and some healers to help me kite the dragons from bough shadow in north east ahsenvale over to astranaar so that the dragon kills everything in site... its really fun i had ally on my server bring the dragon to xr before 2 times in one day it it killed over 100 people and there were dead bodies all over the ground.

well yea

also diesl i just got my heartseeker with a +5 dmg enchant on it

[Diesl]

so last night on blackrock me and 2 other 60's were ganking in ashenvale at astranaar. and we killed the windrider npc 2 times so people could fly in but couldnt leave then we killed about 100 gaurds cause they kept spawning and we kiled any lvl 20-28 ally we saw. it was fun we did it for about 30min. then it got alittle old. but it was still fun to gank all the lowbies and kill there FP. finally i think 1 only 1 55 preist came and we killed her 2 times then she left.


but it was a good time and i would love to do it again...

im trying to get a lvl 60 hunter and some healers to help me kite the dragons from bough shadow in north east ahsenvale over to astranaar so that the dragon kills everything in site... its really fun i had ally on my server bring the dragon to xr before 2 times in one day it it killed over 100 people and there were dead bodies all over the ground.

well yea

also diesl i just got my heartseeker with a +5 dmg enchant on it
Your gonna need it ..lol

[Xal]

*grabs bowl of popcorn*
*sits back*
*watches Bass show off his e-******
*watches Deisl take offense to Bass' e-******
*watches E-***** duel take off*
Ah, good show. Almost as good as listening to Elwynn Forest general chat.

[mesonm]

Exactly... you shouldnt be able to up your honor on the same day you spend killing severly honorless targets. I mean yeah it pretty neat when ppl call in l vl 60 rogues because you kill them but the game would be much more fun if there was incentive for them to call in people of similar levels to try to fight you as opposed to lvl 60s to completely obliterate your lvl 35 -40 char...

It's just stupid but as long as it stays that way theres no reason to not be a total dick and just gank people. Nah mean? Its in the game so why not ruin peoples day... there are no downsides. might as well just ruin some people in aastraanars night.

The game shouldnt stop you from ganking. there should be discouragement though. At least imo.

It is impractical to implement most suggested forms of 'discouragement'....Should a bunch of lowbie alli's be able to come after me, and me not be able to get honor that day (from BG, or otherwise) because I kill them? To know if they came at me first, you'd have to track whose fireball, sword, etc, did damage first...What if there are three of them (partied, or not) and one hits me and I fight back against the other two also? Does that mean I should be penalized? I think not...When you think of a solution, you need to take in the middle ground...not just the case where a 60 comes upon a 20 and ganks him.

And, I believe there is incentive for the same levels to come help you, since they get honor and the 60 might not...What you are mostly talking about though is not incentive, but DISincentive (not allowing the 60 to get honor that day because he 'ganked' someone.

It is just plain easier from a game dynamics standpoint to say that pvp means ANYTIME you are out of your main cities/areas. you are subject to death...Because the same goes for the other side when you go after them...heh

[Northalius]

Well, I haven't even bought the game yet, but just imagining about it, I'd say:

Leave the current PvP server like it is, I am going to like having to watch my back when I start playing; it WILL keep me on my toes, almost like it'd be in real life! That I'm going to like! Depending on my mood, of course.

Now, at the same time, make ANOTHER PvP server where if you DO slaughter low levels, you WILL get dishonorable points. They should have TWO PvP servers! :happy34:

[KalziEast]

Lately I've been getting ganked more and more... I mean, I'd be walking into W. Plaguelands, then I hear that one of our Argent Dawn guys are under attack. Turns out it's 4 Alliance ( level 60, 1's a druid healer ) so I run up and take down the Druid, then am immediately killed by the others. I run back to check if our guy got killed, then I see 4 bodies on the ground and I laugh, so then I mount and run back into W.P. and start killing a couple things, suddenly I get rooted and I'm like " What? These have never rooted me before? " so I quickly kill the guy in front of me then see the Druid trying to kill me, so I vanish and he's spinning around checking for me, so I wait until he's pointed towards me spinning and I ran in and Ambush(crit) and then SS,SS,SS,Gouge, then finally Evis. I crit 1 SS, and crit the Evis. His health is only down to 1/4th, and I have barely any energy and he has almost full mana, so I gouge again, run behind him, and Backstab, finally he's dead so I sit down to eat for my health.

I get my health to about 3/4ths and then I'm hit by the " Crusader stun " thing, and I turn around and see the Paladin, he immediately crits me and I'm down to about 1/2 health already, so I vanish and Ambush(crit again =)) and I know I'm most likely going to lose, I just want to hurt him a bit, so I gouge, run behind, backstab, SS(crit), and Ghostly Strike(+15% chance to dodge for 7 seconds and +125% wep dmg.) then evis, he's down to about 1/2 health, so I turn on evasion and I'm down to about 1/3rd health since he wasn't really fighting me, then I stealth(not vanish) and Ambush him again, damn, no crit, oh well, gouge, backstab, ss, he's down to about 1/4th health, I wait for my energy to get to 100%, then I quickly hit in my last SS and slam in my Evis, right after my evis he turns invuln, and he only has about 100 health, so I stealth, he has full health, and I go a couple feet away behind a tree and sit for health, I notice he's looking around for me but when his back is turned I quickly eat something and get my health back up to full.

He notices me and right then I turn stealth, he runs over, looks for me, Ambush(crit, great), backstab(crit, this is going great so far), ss, gouge, backstab, evis(crit) and he's down to 1/4th health, great, I've got him to almost no health, the druid roots me again, the guy heals, they start pounding me, I vanish, and run for my life. See, I fought 1 level 60 ( Druid ) 1 on 1 and won, I'm only 52 at that point. Then I fight a 60 Paladin ( Pretty much the hardest to kill for Rogues, huge armor, huge health, and they have more armor then warriors, but they're not as powerful in their hits ) and they still had to get backup.

[KalziEast]

If ganking ever = dishonor, it'll be a sad day for A LOT of people, not just rogues, random AFK'ers in your territory(pvp I'm talking about) would be considered " ganking " and stuff, so.

[willray]

I'm on a PVP server, and I must say, getting ganked really sucks.
You know, it doesn't really even bother me when someone kills me once and leaves it at that, but those corpse campers, i find it just a better reason to melt faces when I reach 60.

[Raging]

Lately I've been getting ganked more and more... I mean, I'd be walking into W. Plaguelands, then I hear that one of our Argent Dawn guys are under attack. Turns out it's 4 Alliance ( level 60, 1's a druid healer ) so I run up and take down the Druid, then am immediately killed by the others. I run back to check if our guy got killed, then I see 4 bodies on the ground and I laugh, so then I mount and run back into W.P. and start killing a couple things, suddenly I get rooted and I'm like " What? These have never rooted me before? " so I quickly kill the guy in front of me then see the Druid trying to kill me, so I vanish and he's spinning around checking for me, so I wait until he's pointed towards me spinning and I ran in and Ambush(crit) and then SS,SS,SS,Gouge, then finally Evis. I crit 1 SS, and crit the Evis. His health is only down to 1/4th, and I have barely any energy and he has almost full mana, so I gouge again, run behind him, and Backstab, finally he's dead so I sit down to eat for my health.

I get my health to about 3/4ths and then I'm hit by the " Crusader stun " thing, and I turn around and see the Paladin, he immediately crits me and I'm down to about 1/2 health already, so I vanish and Ambush(crit again =)) and I know I'm most likely going to lose, I just want to hurt him a bit, so I gouge, run behind, backstab, SS(crit), and Ghostly Strike(+15% chance to dodge for 7 seconds and +125% wep dmg.) then evis, he's down to about 1/2 health, so I turn on evasion and I'm down to about 1/3rd health since he wasn't really fighting me, then I stealth(not vanish) and Ambush him again, damn, no crit, oh well, gouge, backstab, ss, he's down to about 1/4th health, I wait for my energy to get to 100%, then I quickly hit in my last SS and slam in my Evis, right after my evis he turns invuln, and he only has about 100 health, so I stealth, he has full health, and I go a couple feet away behind a tree and sit for health, I notice he's looking around for me but when his back is turned I quickly eat something and get my health back up to full.

He notices me and right then I turn stealth, he runs over, looks for me, Ambush(crit, great), backstab(crit, this is going great so far), ss, gouge, backstab, evis(crit) and he's down to 1/4th health, great, I've got him to almost no health, the druid roots me again, the guy heals, they start pounding me, I vanish, and run for my life. See, I fought 1 level 60 ( Druid ) 1 on 1 and won, I'm only 52 at that point. Then I fight a 60 Paladin ( Pretty much the hardest to kill for Rogues, huge armor, huge health, and they have more armor then warriors, but they're not as powerful in their hits ) and they still had to get backup.

That's a lot of vanishes.

[Hateblade]

Not only is there a lot of vanishes in that story, but if how he wrote it is how it REALLY happened, than there is 2 times that he stealthed while in combat. Correct me if I'm wrong, which I'm not, but whatever, but you CANNOT re-stealth in combat. Only the Vanish will break you out of combat with an enemy. So, unless your Vanish is recharging every minute, this sounds a lil fishy to this guy. <-------

[Lewisham]

I think the problem is we might be looking at this the wrong way round. Instead of punishing a ganker, why not lessen the penalties for those that are ganked? It's not the physical act of dying that's the problem, its the ludicrous corpse runs you can be forced to do (4 minutes in Desolace) over something you had no control over.

What would be nicer is some form of banishment for the ganked (any time you're killed by the opposing faction and you don't yield any HK). Let them rez on the spot, but have them banished: no-one can hit you, and you can't hit them (not that you could before). Allow you to still quest against NPCs or run off to wherever you were going.

You could call it "surrendered" or something.

Ganking is a form of griefing. Griefing is making other people's lives more difficult for the fun of it. This makes you Not A Nice Person. Ganking should have some sort of thing in place to stop it.

And by the way, anyone who says "because other people did it to me" that's not an excuse, that's participating in something you hated done to you. A circle of abuse is a reason, but it's no excuse.

Chris

[Pandra]

Bah, stop your crying. It's war hence the name of the game warcraft. I grow tired of people saying so and so killed me when it was my choice to play on a pvp server. Deal with it or re-roll on a pve and then you can pvp when you want to.

[Lewisham]

Bah, stop your crying. It's war hence the name of the game warcraft. I grow tired of people saying so and so killed me when it was my choice to play on a pvp server. Deal with it or re-roll on a pve and then you can pvp when you want to.

That's not really very constructive. Do you actually have a reason why ganking should carry on as it is?

Clues:
- "Deal with it" is not a reason, it is a command.
- Thinking everyone that doesn't enjoy it are crying, whiners, or carebears is not a reason either, because its not true.

If you can't think of anything else, I'm sure the Official WoW forums will welcome you back with open arms! :happy14:

Chris

[5zigen]

Well, I haven't even bought the game yet, but just imagining about it, I'd say:

Leave the current PvP server like it is, I am going to like having to watch my back when I start playing; it WILL keep me on my toes, almost like it'd be in real life! That I'm going to like! Depending on my mood, of course.

Now, at the same time, make ANOTHER PvP server where if you DO slaughter low levels, you WILL get dishonorable points. They should have TWO PvP servers! :happy34:

How will it keep you on your toes? If a lvl 60 runs by its at his whim whether or not you die. there is litterally nothing you can do pre level 50 or so. as long as they have a stun / speed buff you are dead. No use in watching your back because the only hope you have is as druid and shapeshifting...

Its never really cool and the 7th time a 60 dismounts to kill you as your running to your next quest area or running to town and you have to run to your corpse for 5 minutes, it just gets old.

[Isabeau]

That's not really very constructive. Do you actually have a reason why ganking should carry on as it is?

Clues:
- "Deal with it" is not a reason, it is a command.
- Thinking everyone that doesn't enjoy it are crying, whiners, or carebears is not a reason either, because its not true.

If you can't think of anything else, I'm sure the Official WoW forums will welcome you back with open arms! :happy14:

Chris

There really isn't a solution to this issue except to play on a pve server. Any form of "dishonor" would allow for just as much ganking only in the reverse. Do you really think it would work for a person who is a higher level not to be able to defend themselves against a lower level player? It would never work, that is why they dropped that idea in beta. When you play on a pvp server, the expectation is all out warfare. Most of the people who generally are drawn to a pvp server like to pvp and they really don't care if you are a lower level or not. That is just the way it is, and I wouldn't expect this to change anytime soon.

The constructive part of his post really was, move to a pve server. It could have been said with a little less antagonism but truly, if you are looking for honorable pvp in the form you are discussing here...you need to go to a pve server and play in the battlegrounds where it is within a level range. There is your solution.

[Lewisham]

Mmm, I understand PVE is really the only option. This isn't anything to do with my post about ganking in another thread, I understand why it dishonour can't be implemented. Ganking isn't cool, but it *is* a part of PvP. However, I think working it from the end of the victim rather than punishing the perpetrator does seem to have some benefits.

PvP is great fun when you have a chance. I like PvP raids and everything else. I just wonder if the Ganking Ghost is such a big deal for a lot of people, and it is, that something shouldn't be done. I think there are a fair number of players who would really like to see something more meaningful made of the factions than a Tauren dancing on the path to Southshore, without it meaning their enjoyment is shafted. And hey, PvP has got better longevity, and that's what makes the difference to the bottom-line, encouraging more conversions should be part of the plan.

I don't think any of this will change any time soon. And I will be sticking with my RPPvP server, at least there you usually get a wave or a laugh from level ??. I think the benefits outweigh the downsides, but only *just*.

Chris

[mesonm]

That's not really very constructive. Do you actually have a reason why ganking should carry on as it is?

Clues:
- "Deal with it" is not a reason, it is a command.
- Thinking everyone that doesn't enjoy it are crying, whiners, or carebears is not a reason either, because its not true.

If you can't think of anything else, I'm sure the Official WoW forums will welcome you back with open arms! :happy14:

Chris

Deal with it....LOL

You want a 'problem' to be solved, where I do not agree there is a problem...In order to solve your 'problem', one has to accept your premise that there is a problem to start with.

If someone is on a PvP server, they signed up for the conditions that make up the basis for PvP. Changing the server to accommodate someone who made a bad choice isn't solving a problem.

In 51 lvls, I've been 'ganked' maybe 30-40 times...big deal...I knew going in that I would be subject to death at the hands of most others the first time I was not in horde territory...I rolled PvP to have the adventure and excitement of not knowing what was around the corner be a part of my game...Sure, getting killed isn't much fun once you die, but the fight on the way is fun.

And, so far as I can tell, these are WOW forums, and I welcome you and your adversary here any time.

[Torvon]

DH points for killing every player more than 20 lvl below you would be a beginning.

[urgeoverkill]

Being a relative WoW newbie and working my way up to 60 (currently a lvl 44 druid), I've experienced my fair share of frustration at being ganked on a daily basis. Probably more so as a druid, since we generally suck at one-on-one PVP, especially against rogues (of which I estimate there is one behind me at every moment I'm playing). And I too have wondered about the boredom/maturity/honor reasoning behind people ganking... especially when it comes to griefing.

However, I haven't really seen any way to make it discouragable through punishment. Punishment would require a significant amount of programming to determine if it's actually griefing or a legitimate kill, and would probably end up being nerfed more often than not.

However, there are some things I've thought of that might work. The first, which is more pipe dream than something that could be actual reality, would work on the diminishing returns that's already a part of WoW... where after each time you kill a particular person during a certain (reasonably lengthy) time frame, the amount of damage you deal and the chance for your spells and abilities to work and/or crit against that player decrease proportionately. Have the diminishing returns kick in once you are no longer receiving honor for the kills. In other words, say I'm ganking a lvl 35 undead priest. After the fifth kill, I'm no longer getting honor, and my damage and abilities would start to decrease... each subsequent kill would give the priest a greater shot at killing me for revenge. If I gank a lvl 15 tauren shaman, since I'm getting no honor for any of those kills, diminishing returns would kick in almost immediately. Of course, this would also be dependent on location... if you're in a BG, for example, you wouldn't want this to be implemented. The idea is to discourage someone from killing you over and over and over, while giving you a chance to teach the griefer a lesson if they do (without having to wait the days, weeks, or months it'll take you to lvl to a reasonable lvl to do so and hope that they're still playing and you can find them). This is obviously the least thought out and least feasible of my two "ideas," so feel free to tear it apart as you see fit, it won't bother me in the least. :)

The second idea, though, is to have more items/armor that work to combat getting ganked. For example, my saving grace has been a nice piece of Green Whelp Armor that I made for my druid, which gives a 5% chance of casting sleep on the attacker when struck in melee. Nothing gives me more satisfaction after a session of being ganked than to have a rogue come up, try to gank me, and get put to sleep long enough for me to distance, heal, root, fairie fire and moonfire him into oblivion. Having more options like that (where you never know when you're hitting something if it might have an adverse and unexpected result on you) on items that you're wearing might help offset some of the grief caused by ganking, especially to lowbies.

Personally though, I know where I get ganked the most, and avoid those areas when possible. And when I can't, I try and at least stay close to a graveyard, so I can rez and run as quickly as possible. And, I keep a KOS list for later, since I have a looooong list of paybacks I'm dealing out as I see them. It is, after all, part of the game, as it should be. :)

[mesonm]

DH points for killing every player more than 20 lvl below you would be a beginning.

Too hard to implement...It can't be that simple a policy, or every lvl 1 would run out to try to find higher lvls to gank...You'd have to keep track of who started the fight...an impossible task.

With your suggested policy, nobody would be inclined to attack a city...which would completely kill nonBG PvP...

[Fayeborn]

With my level 33 shadow priest on Emerald Dream, I've been ganked 3 good times that I count. A few botched gank attempts (killed them or got away..)All learning experiences.

1st time attempted (always the most memorable) was a 38 NE rogue when I was level 30. My fault, I saw him but just /waved and went on about my grinding. A few seconds after my pull and as my shield was going down he tried to get me. Targetting Dummy for the mob, psychic scream for both and SW:P for the rogue, devouring plague, reshield and run. Came back and looted my Targetting dummy he popped on me again. Grunt trinket to break the stun, Psychic scream, Renew and Shield/run. He chased me into the water and sprinted after me, psychic screamed again when he got to me dotted him and he left me alone. Had I been more on my toes I would have mind controlled him and swam him to the bottom to drown.

1st gank - 35 shadow priest (wearing gnome disguise) started in on me as I had just pulled. My fault again, wasn't paying attention. Same thing, fear, targetting dummy, sw:P, mind blast. He came back, I shielded, removed his SW:P from me, then removed his Fortitude from him, mind flay and devouring plague. The turtle killed me by getting to me before I could get the opponent dead. It was close. Again though, my fault and was a legitimate win for the other person (even though I was already engaged).

2nd gank - Hunting elementals around Dalaran and saw a red name in the distance. 41 hunter. Hit shield and headed for the water hoping they hadn't seen me. They did though and I was chased down/moved down by the 41's pet, a 42 pally and a 41 druid. I understand why they did it, but there was little I could do in defense.

3rd gank (and most rediculous) Hunting a area and saw 2 mounted ?? alliance. Shielded and headed for the water. I was on one of the isles in Lake Lorderon before they caught up to me. I lasted 2 hits and a fireball. They /spit, mounted and ran off into the lake. *shrug* Absolutey no reason to run me down, but it is a rp/pvp server and we ARE at war. If it was a reverse situation now, I'd run them down.

[Hateblade]

This is a continuous topic that just needs to go away. I'll say the same thing I said in the other one. PVP. PLAYER VS PLAYER. Period. Whoever thought up the term "ganking" is a sissy! Get over it, and go play on a PvE server. This is a GAME, and it will be played however people want to play it. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire. Stop taking up forum space about something that WILL NOT change.


Have a nice day. :happy34:

[urgeoverkill]

This is a continuous topic that just needs to go away. I'll say the same thing I said in the other one. PVP. PLAYER VS PLAYER. Period. Whoever thought up the term "ganking" is a sissy! Get over it, and go play on a PvE server. This is a GAME, and it will be played however people want to play it. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire. Stop taking up forum space about something that WILL NOT change.


Have a nice day. :happy34:

Actually, I think it's just that they're not using the right terminology. They say "ganking," which while lowdown, sneaky and dirty has been a legitimate tactic since the old Warcraft days. And Blizzard wants it to be a part of the game:

Ganking can mean being killed while fighting a monster or killing another player while they are fighting a monster. You WILL be ganked on a regular basis. Watch out for other players while fighting. Often, players will be consumed with their current fight and won't notice the enemy attacking from behind. Don't let your guard down.

I think what they mean to talk about ganking here is "griefing" or other "dishonorable actions." Mostly it's venting... you should just let them vent. They're obviously getting enough grief while playing the game, why add to it here?

That said, it's a part of the game. Even Blizzard suggests that if you are continually frustrated by the pace or interruptions of the PvP environment, that perhaps a PvE environment where you have more control is a better option for you. Except in extreme circumstances, Blizzard wants you to get back through combat, not through the GM or through complaining. Remember it's not admitting defeat or that you're a "sissy" if you like a different style of playing. And even the biggest jerk telling you you're one, or giving you grief online has someone else who is just waiting to do the same to them, so take some satisfaction in that.

I would still like to see more "chance to activate on type of damage" items available though. I think it would add more of a sense of surprise to the game by adding the possibility that the outcome of the attacker might not be as they expected. But that's a wish list thing... I have my KOS list, that's enough for me.

[Eskimo Bob]

I currently play on a pve server (49 NE rogue) and am most likely going to roll a undead rogue on a pvp server. BGs, raids and the occasional flagged horde my level are just not enough pvp to satisfy my tastes.

I seriously wish I started on a pvp server, but I chose pve ebcause I was new and did not want to have my fun ruined by some lvl 60s with nothing better to do.

If only I could transfer my toon from my current server to a pvp server. I don't want to see all my hard work on him gone to waste.

As for the DK system for ganking, it could easily be put in. Just have it where for the DK to work the gankee must NOT fight back, or maybe even just not layed the first blow.

For all of you saying "its war in a pvp server deal with it". Well actualy honorable knights and such would not go out seeking peasents of a enemy country to kill. He would seek a true battle against someone his own skill.

Maybe even a different alternative, if you are corpse camped, a friendly fuard patrol is spawned near your body to dispatch/scare the high level away. This would only happen if the ganker is 20+ levels higher. This idea is of course a long shot and very flawed.

[Trooogdooor]

that goes back to the whole brins some lowbies thing that was discussed on page 1... you could even have a raid of lowbies that when they all died a massive group of guards would spawn and wtfpwn the entire are they were in

[FourthForseti]

that goes back to the whole brins some lowbies thing that was discussed on page 1... you could even have a raid of lowbies that when they all died a massive group of guards would spawn and wtfpwn the entire are they were in


but you have to admit, if it happened it would be the funniest thing you have EVER seen :lol:

[Tenisyn]

Maybe even a different alternative, if you are corpse camped, a friendly fuard patrol is spawned near your body to dispatch/scare the high level away. This would only happen if the ganker is 20+ levels higher. This idea is of course a long shot and very flawed.

The one problem with that would be that Blizzard doesn't see anything wrong with corpse camping. On the help menu, when you look at the "report physical harassment" function, you'll see corpse camping listed as something they don't want to hear about and will not do anything about. Some players do (not me personally, I love to rez, charge, hamstring, etc... to get my point across) think that corpse camping is griefing. It's not. It's terribly easy to use /3 to get the message out that horde are around camping your corspe. Also the /w lvl60guildmate function works well also, if you don't feel you can handle an escape. I've had a few corpse camping episodes in SS which have escalated into full blown raids on Tarren Mill. Very few things are as satisfying as teaming up with a guildie to get HK: 1ST SGT on the undead rogue which had been camping you b/c you're 25 levels lower than he is. And the bonus honor for killing someone that many ranks above you is a bonus as well.

So, the underlying point, is to find a silver lining on the supposed dark cloud of corpse camping. Amazing things can happen when you detach yourself from the heat of the moment and think out an alternative. :boxer:

[Euro-Crash]

I wouls just like to throw in my 2c here. It has been a while since I posted...but I thought I would at least say something about this topic.

Last night, I went to Westfall with a group of guildies. I play on a PvE server, but I am ALWAYS flagged. I am not scared...but that's just me.

In any case, we go to Moonbrook, a hostile area for both Horde and Alliance...and there are some lower level characters grinding away. I remained flagged and waved at them. :D

Stupidly, a group of three lower level characters make their move and attack. We let them get a few shots in before defending ourselves...and I actually told my group members to stay out of it...since it was I they attacked and not them.

I even used my wand to give them a chance...also engaged them in melee combat (as a lvl 60 shadow priest I could have very easily defeated them). Well, the response at first was minimal...a group of higher level characters came in and a fair battle began (if you are not familiar with a PvE server, this is typically how you would get some PvP going outside of BG).

We had no issues dispatching them...and they would even kill us too...it was a FAIR fight. So, eventually they decide to leave...at which point we head to Sentinel Hill. We started killing NPC (non-civilians) for laughs...and noticed the group of combatants we had faced earlier start to rear their heads again.

We waited again for them to engage us (which is the part I hate...because on a PvP server, we could have easily hit them first...instead they took the first and CHEAPEST shot they could).

We again dispatch them...and then all hell broke loose. Mind you we only had 5 in our party...and that is it. We were not 5v1 on anyone...we in fact did not jump in unless others joined the fight. Sadly, the Alliance characters on our server do not seem to feel that playing fair is fun.

Soon a group of 25 alliance characters came to uproot us. Now either our group was particularly dangerous...or they did not comprehend the concept of simply fighting...and having fun. As for ganking? Hehe...this is perhaps the WORST gank I have experienced. 25v5 breaks down to 5 on 1...which is a gank on everyone in our party.

Not that I had a problem with it at all...nor did I have a problem with the camping our corpses. I even kept my flag up...they did not frighten me...in fact I stayed until THEY left. I even rez' right in the middle of them, feared, shielded and ran away. Granted...they still got me...but who cares?

We were all on vent and allo of us were laughing at them...why? 25v5 is just a tiny bit of overkill for low level characters that attacked first. :D

[pochanike]

i had thought about that too but to be quite honest it really wouldnt work for the reasons listed above.

we make decisions.

i saw a horde five levels lower than me and waved at him so he would know i wasnt going to hurt him (he was a rogue, i'm a mage) and i proceeded to attack something for a quest. after i did so... he attacked. the way rogues do, sap and backstab.

he killed me very quickly.

as a squishy i get ganked DAILY. whoever said ganking is going down is dead wrong, from my OWN experience.

it gets worse every single time i log on. i had a group of five ??'s dismount and kill me. thanks guys. its all payback. if you're horde, why should i make your grinding any easier than the horde have made my grinding?

if you're horde, you're dead.

plain and simple.

[Atoz]

Dishonorable Actions
Actions that would typically be considered "dishonorable" are considered appropriate actions in a PvP situation and will not be addressed by our Game Master (GM) staff. Dishonorable actions include, but are not limited to:
Corpse camping.
Tricking players into getting flagged for PvP (i.e. jumping in the middle of another player's area effect spell).
Killing players well below your level.

Ongoing Harassment
The Ongoing Harassment policy does not apply on a PvP server when there is a PvP resolution available, as physical confrontations are considered a facet of PvP combat and players in opposing factions are unable to communicate verbally. Characters have the ability to address their conflicts through combat and GMs will only involve themselves in extreme or excessive circumstances.

Pretty much says DH rules are thrown out for PvP servers except in extreme circumtances.

I sure hated being ganked grinding up, but once I hit level 60 the tables turn. I have a 60 'Lock with no rank, but I get drawn in to anti-gank squad all the time. I am currently questing with my 40s druid in STV and I park my 'Lock near by to stike revenge on the gankers (there seems to always be a war going on at Ness camp). Most the time I will wipe the gankers (mainly because they are only couple of levels above my druid), and sometimes I am surprised by another higher level or there are too many gankers. But hey I think is all fair in war.

Here is my suggestion: In a PvE realm you get Flagged for PvP for 5 min when attacking. How about in a PvP realm you get flagged for non-PvP for 5 minutes (or even one minute) after a rez from death.

[Trooogdooor]

you wanna know what's really funny? playing a mage I've had jsut as many problems being in the middle of fighting a mob and getting ambushed+backstabbed and then dieing... thats until I figured it out that if I wore pvp gear at all times unless I knew there were no alliance about I could survive that most deadly combo of deadlyness :P... then I could frost nova and when the rogue vanished I'd again pop it out of stealth with a combustion+blastwave PoM+ pyroblast then scorch him once or twice and you ahve a dead rogue...... if your a priest jsut have psychic scream near the hotkeys you use the most if your a lock well your just screwed till you have your felhunter

Edit: it also keeps your grinding to a similar speed since you don't die as often

[dildog]

look buddy thats how pvp servers work. ganking is not supposed to be dishonarble. i can be sometimes when a couple of high lvls take out some lower lvls but it supposed to be more about spying and thats whgat rogues do it really is war in a pvp server. also u cant really say ganking is dishonable because if ur fraction was really any good dont u think they would help out the lower lvls. ganking is fun and exciting it is what i do best on my rogue. rogues cant tank they arnt any good in mass pvp. why do u think blizzard gave them stealth. it would not be any fun walking around if u knew u were perfectly safe. and in real life what do u think assasins and spys do. The thing that makes wow so good is that it has lots of diffrent pvp. i as a rogue go ganking quite a bit but i dont do things unfair.

[dildog]

a look if u cant handle a rogue just say so there are many ganking counters. maybe u need to become a bit more smarter they way u act in pvp severs

[Mort]

Too hard to implement...It can't be that simple a policy, or every lvl 1 would run out to try to find higher lvls to gank...You'd have to keep track of who started the fight...an impossible task.

Yeah, your right, that would be impossible. Nothing like, say, the system that keeps track of who gets xp/loot from a mob when two or more people not in a group/raid attack it :P

I honestly do not believe that a dishonor system would be impossible to implement. Hard, no doubt, but not impossible. I know there are many circumstances to consider, and it probably wouldnt be perfect, but it still might discourage some of the bored lvl 60s from attacking lower level players.

And even if one existsted, there is nothing to say that one has to implement it on every PvP server. Blizzard could make a PvP-light server which has a dishonor system, and leave the PvP servers as they are. I would definatly play on such a server. I like PvP, I dont like PvE servers, but I very much dislike dishonorable PvP (and I know serveral others do).

But Im afraid this might just be wishfull thinking, since it doesnt look like Blizzard is going to implement such a system.

[WingedNazgul]

But Im afraid this might just be wishfull thinking, since it doesnt look like Blizzard is going to implement such a system.

It sure doesn't look like it and I applaud Blizzard for sticking to their guns. This game is easy enough as it is.

[mesonm]

I would definatly play on such a server. I like PvP, I dont like PvE servers, but I very much dislike dishonorable PvP (and I know serveral others do).


Well...there may indeed be "several", but not the thousands that are needed in order to convince Blizzard that it is needed...


But Im afraid this might just be wishfull thinking, since it doesnt look like Blizzard is going to implement such a system.

Grats Blizz!

[Mort]

Well...there may indeed be "several", but not the thousands that are needed in order to convince Blizzard that it is needed...

Considering how often threads like this get startet, and how quickly they grow, Im not so sure. But in any case, neither of us has any statistics to say one way or the other.

But what I dont understand is why some people are against a server using such a ruleset. Noone is forcing people to play on them, the PvP servers would still be there, and the game wouldnt be any easier than a PvE server. So why do you think its a good thing that blizzard hasnt implementet a system like that? Not everyone who wants to play on a PvP server wants to play the game your particular way (and no, I dont want to play on a PvE server. Not the same thing).

[brandondash]

Mort didn't you agree to drop this debate in the other thread? :P

There are about a dozen exploits that can be employed for any system that you can name. I think what you guys fail to realize is that rather than repelling 1337 über gamers it will actually attract them. The same mentality that makes them pvp people 40 levels below them will cause them to flock to this "safe" server in order to make life miserable for people who can't fight back because of the fancy rules.

brandon-

[mesonm]

Considering how often threads like this get startet, and how quickly they grow, Im not so sure. But in any case, neither of us has any statistics to say one way or the other.



You are correct...We aren't sure either way...

Blizzard is doing the right thing, or folks would vote with their money...and leave.

You still play, so it must not be a deal-breaker.



But what I dont understand is why some people are against a server using such a ruleset. Noone is forcing people to play on them, the PvP servers would still be there, and the game wouldnt be any easier than a PvE server. So why do you think its a good thing that blizzard hasnt implementet a system like that? Not everyone who wants to play on a PvP server wants to play the game your particular way (and no, I dont want to play on a PvE server. Not the same thing).

Why do you assume that I'm against you being on your own server with a ruleset that you enjoy?

I am all for it. But it isn't likely cost effective...and I'm for Blizzard spending their money where it benefits the mainstream...and I believe I'm in the mainstream...So I prefer Blizzard not taking on what I believe to be the fringe cases...(my opinion only, admittedly).

[WingedNazgul]

I am all for it. But it isn't likely cost effective...and I'm for Blizzard spending their money where it benefits the mainstream...and I believe I'm in the mainstream...So I prefer Blizzard not taking on what I believe to be the fringe cases...(my opinion only, admittedly).

I guess that means Amish-only servers are out of the question too? =/

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5707001

[Mort]

Mort didn't you agree to drop this debate in the other thread? :P

Yes, and as I recall you did as well :)

But that thread was about ganking ethics, this is about ganking = dishonor, so not the same thing :whistle:

There are about a dozen exploits that can be employed for any system that you can name. I think what you guys fail to realize is that rather than repelling 1337 über gamers it will actually attract them. The same mentality that makes them pvp people 40 levels below them will cause them to flock to this "safe" server in order to make life miserable for people who can't fight back because of the fancy rules.

I guess that is the core problem: is it possible to create a fair dishonor system. Im not going to get long winded (as I seem to do alot) and just say that I can think of a few problems, but I do not believe that it is impossible.

Why do you assume that I'm against you being on your own server with a ruleset that you enjoy?

I got that impression from your previous post, but I appologize if I missunderstood.

I am all for it. But it isn't likely cost effective...and I'm for Blizzard spending their money where it benefits the mainstream...and I believe I'm in the mainstream...So I prefer Blizzard not taking on what I believe to be the fringe cases...(my opinion only, admittedly).

Whether or not a PvP-light server will be cost effective is a good question, one that I dont think anyone, including Blizzard, can answer with a reasonably degree of certainty. They might as well just be playing it safe, thinking that anyone who would want to play on such a server will play the game anyway, either on a PvE server with their PvP flag on, or on a PvP server, complaining in these threads every time they (we) get ganked :lol:

Allthough they did, in all fairness, make RP-PvP servers, even though people playing on them can in no way be called mainstream. But ofcourse, a server with a dishonor system would require making the dishonor system first, and that costs money.

[ranevan]

I had a thought for the ganking=dishonor. It may have been mentioned in the 10 pages before this post, but I don't mind dying once to a ganker, but 5 times in a row is a pain. A simple flag over a newly rezzed player that lasted 5 minutes and went away if they attacked anything that made attacking them dishonorable would be a fair solution. A determined ganker can wait 5 minutes if they really wanted to keep murdering the victim, but the victim would have time to run away before dying, or they'd have time to buff up and get back into the fray.

[kspencer]

For what it's worth, I'll quote from the official policy (found at http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowgm/?id=agm01654p ):

Actions that would typically be considered "dishonorable" are considered appropriate actions in a PvP situation and will not be addressed by our Game Master (GM) staff. Dishonorable actions include, but are not limited to:

* Corpse camping.
* Tricking players into getting flagged for PvP (i.e. jumping in the middle of another player's area effect spell).
* Killing players well below your level.

[Atoz]

I agree there would be no way to implement a fair dishonor system, but I wonder what would happen if A DH was given for any PvP grey killed. :chinny: It is extremly hard to get top rank and keep it. With a DHK system I wonder if it be imposible to keep rank?

Scenerio: A lowbie sees a high ranking opposite faction. Said lowbie gathers an army of lowbies to attack the High rank. The High level high rank would have to run away in fear of losing his Status.. but since the the high hevel is suppose to be a leader, he should be able to gather a lowbie army to fight back..

I don't have any PvP rank so I don't worry too much about the honor kills. (except in raids to protect other's rank). I am just trying to think outside the box, so please don't flame me.

So gankees complain there needs to be dishonor system to protect them from higher levels, and High rankers complain a dishonor system would not be fair to keep thier rank. It would be interesting to see what a DHK/HK system would be like on test realm.

[KalziEast]

Not only is there a lot of vanishes in that story, but if how he wrote it is how it REALLY happened, than there is 2 times that he stealthed while in combat. Correct me if I'm wrong, which I'm not, but whatever, but you CANNOT re-stealth in combat. Only the Vanish will break you out of combat with an enemy. So, unless your Vanish is recharging every minute, this sounds a lil fishy to this guy. <-------

If you don't have the target selected for about 5 seconds you can stealth again. It allows you out of combat. Also, the vanishes, I fought for about 18 minutes total. I cut out a lot of crap with the Paladin because a Paladin fight can practically last forever.

[Shellar]

"Even among enemies as the Horde and the Alliance, there is honor. If you flaunt this honor and engage in objectionable PvP play, such as killing new players vastly inferior to you in level, or killing essential non-combat NPCs such as flight masters or quest givers, you will earn dishonor."
- World of Warcraft Manual, p. 134.

[WingedNazgul]

"Even among enemies as the Horde and the Alliance, there is honor. If you flaunt this honor and engage in objectionable PvP play, such as killing new players vastly inferior to you in level, or killing essential non-combat NPCs such as flight masters or quest givers, you will earn dishonor."
- World of Warcraft Manual, p. 134.

The manual was written before release and is sadly outdated.

[Fatz]

First and foremost the term ganking is a crock. It's what the people who were "ganked" say to make them feel good about themselves. I have a story to back up why a DHK system for players would just not work. I was around 45 or so, and I was just exploring the Redridge area (had never been there so I decided to just look around for giggles.) Anyway, apparently a raid was going on in Lakeshire while I was vacationing in the good ole Redridge mountains. A after the raid, a lone ?? Ally had stumbled upon me and apparently though I had been part of the recent disturbance. He killed me. I came back to corpse and a lowbie Night Elf Hunter I had past several times was camping with the ??, wanting in on some free HKs. I rezzed and ran, the lowbie shot off a concussion and miraculously hit, I was slowed (despite level difference) and the ?? Pally gunned me down. After killing me the ?? rode off. Another group of ??'s rode by when I rezzed and got me again with the lowbie hunter nearby sucking HKs. After they left, I rezzed and spent the better part of my time ganking the snot out of that hunter for a while (and ignoring the other lowbies nearby that had nothing to do with it.) Actually, the other lowbies stood around and laughed at the hunter and we had a pretty good time :buddies: . The point though, with no DHK the lowbies could sit around sucking HKs. If you don't like ganking get out of the PvP servers.

[Shellar]

The manual was written before release and is sadly outdated.
Just goes to show that Blizzard's views on the subject are not set in stone. They changed their opinion once, and they might do so again.

[WingedNazgul]

Just goes to show that Blizzard's views on the subject are not set in stone. They changed their opinion once, and they might do so again.

I sure hope not. It's fine the way it is IMO.

[Aerath]

Nah - I can do without the DKs for Civis.

Particularly since Civis aren't civis for -all- members in the raid if you bring a couple lower level ones...

[MrPancake]

First, let me clarify that I'm a bona fide pvp junkie. I run around the game looking for a fight. It's fun.

BUT

I never run around looking for an UNFAIR fight.

I really don't understand why high-level players take any time at all to kill those who are 10,15, 20 or more levels below them. Even worse, there are those who seek it out. It's not worth any Honor points and frankly, it's considered by most military cultures to be a sign of cowardice.

Ganking is rampant in WoW. If killing a civilian NPC is worth DH, why isn't killing a basically defenseless opponent worthy of a penalty?

I know there are those who think, "kill them all!, they're the enemy!". But, ultimately, that's a futile and weak stance for anyone to take.

Has Blizzard expressed an opinion about any of this? The tediousness of getting ganked is enough to make me want to quit playing.

And for those of you smug SOBs out there, I'm a Knight-Captain on two servers (these AREN'T the characters getting ganked) and can say truthfully that I've never ganked anyone. I consider that just being weak and petty. But, as I've been building another warrior on Darkspear (37), I can say that the amount of ganking I've experienced has actually increased.

At this point, the only thing that's going to slow it down is penalizing those who do it. And although I can't ever hope for some sort of penalty for lame rogues who wait for you to get in trouble with a few mobs and THEN hit you from behind, I do think it's fair to ask for Blizzard to start policing gank freaks.


Ganking = PvP server. No ganking and you're playing on a normal. It's the whole premise and concept behind it.

[squigipapa]

Which is where players who dont like the extra challenge should go. Some players dont have the time to waste getting ganked all of the time, and if you dont have that time you should play PvE.

Since even on PvE you can still have your share of PvP fights.

I think this is the biggest concern for many players is that they say have 5 hours to play a week and they dont want to waste 3 of them running to their corpse, which is a fair call and a PvE server really is a better choice for you.

I started PvE back in beta - it was fun. Then I thought I would give PvP a try and I havent looked back since, nothing compares to thrill of being attacked by impossible odds, then calling in reinforcements and having massive hunts.

It just adds a whole new element into the game.

But then again I was the player that had HC players on Diablo II because I thrived on that level of difficulty.

I diden't read the entire thread, but this is probably one of the best things I've ever read on the subject.

I really looked into PvE v.s. PvP BEFORE, I made the decision to create a character. I actually really thought about it. I thought about worst case possible, and whether I'd be willing to deal with that. And this is what I came up with:

PvP Server, Worst Case: I have 3 hours to play. I log on, venture out, and a character 59 levels above me kills me. 40 of his level 60 buddies are around, covering the distance between my body and the graveyard. Whatever I do, no matter where I try, if I rez, someone kills me instantly. I rez; I die. No time to hearth, no where to hide. For the entire 3 hours I'm logged on. Obviouly this woulden't happen, but I wanted to look at the worst case possible. I woulden't have been able to put up with that, so I created on a PvE server.

By the amount of whineing that comes from some people on PvP servers, I think there are a lot of others who should have asked themselves the same question as I did.

The funny thing is, I hear so often from people on PvP servers: "I would get sick of PvE 100% of the time, that's why I play on a PvP server."

It's just so wrong. There are guys on my realm, in my guild even, that do nothing, but PvP all the time. The high warlords on both alliance and horde side, have confessed to 8+ hours per day of nothing but PvP, 100% of the time.

The other thing about PvE servers, there seems to be a much more balance of classes. The stats on most PvP servers show a heavy percentage of rogues, because let's face it, stealth, on a server where you can be attacked anywhere & anytime is a huge advantage. The PvE servers have a nice spread of classes, because anyone can level any class just as much as any other. I know people who play on PvP servers, they started as a warrior, made it to STV, and simply quit the warrior, because of the number of times they got ganked. but instead of moving to a PvE server, they stayed where they were and they created a rogue, for stealth.

I totally agree with PvP servers staying exactly how they are. They are the epitemy of War. But I think a lot of people that are there shoulden't be. It'll be a sad day though, for the truely hardcore players that the realms were built for, because they suit them fine.

[Propheot]

The problem with posts like this is that people will have two completely different ideas and it will be quite difficult to convince them otherwise. The two sides in this post have different definitions of pvp and no matter what the other says they are most likely not going to change their opinion.

I normally don't gank lower levels in pvp but when I see a tauren shaman walk about it is like someone takes control of me...... everything blacks out and then I realise what is happening it is a few minutes later with a body at my character's feet and I am filled with an odd sense of satisfaction. Lol. Do you think I need to see a doctor?

[KalziEast]

I just hate Paladin's. I mean, seriously, if you ever wanted a "fair" fight with them, yes, they can use all their spells, but 99% of the Paladin's our there do the usual "Hit hit hit hit hit, 1/6th health left, shield, heal, heal, hit hit hit hit hit, 1/6th health, shield isn't up yet, gulp down a potion, hit hit hit, shield, heal, hit hit hit the other person is dead" I was a Rogue when I played, I never fought a single Paladin that fought fair except an old friend that joined WoW a couple months before and he told me it was him on AIM. We decided it would be a completely fair fight, skills only, no potions or pots or anything. I was level 42 he was level 44, he almost completely kicked my ass until I got my crit evis, vanished, crit ambushed and the fight was over.

[ash2ash]

Paladin's aren't imbalanced atm. I find that on my rogue, retribution paladins are one of the trickier but not impossible classes to beat since they give you so many opportunities to enter stealth due to their lack of ranged offence / ability to catch up to an enemy at range.

Next patch, however, I think that good paladins will become one of the toughest opponents to beat in PvP.

[Vorlin]

Employing every tool you have in your character's goody bag is simply good thinking. It's the same thing when I fight rogues with my druid...if I can see them for 1 second and get a FF off, it's game over. They don't think it's fair for me to entangle them repeatedly while blasting them from afar but you know what? To let a rogue get inside melee range (unless you have a LOT of hp/dps as my feral druid has) is suicide, just like trying to stay ranged against a hunter or mage.

The only complaint I've ever had (and it's why I stopped dueling priests and warlocks) is chain fear.

[CWB]

I'd have to agree with these guys, It would subtract from the gameplay to make ganks DH... Wouldn't you miss that adrenaline rush as you see 3 lev60's heading your way on mounts as you try to hide or prey they don't stop... Just like if it were real life... hence role playing/realizm

Slickice out :bow:


Ya getting jumped by higher level players is annoying as hell, but thats PVP. Real PVP involves a sense of danger, it spices up the sometimes boring MMORPG world. And if you see 3 level 60 enemy players heading your way, and you cant run hide becouse they spotted you already, you basically dead if thats what they want. So at that point your only choice is to show respect and acknowledge the fact that they can stomp you into the dirt without breaking a sweat lol. /bow or /salute or if your really in deep trouble, /kneel. Time and time again I thought I was toast, but kneeled down a few seconds and maybe a bow...and they stop, then went on by. Im not too proud to show alittle respect, if it will save me a damn corpse run lol. But Im pretty new to WoW just a noob, what do I know hehe :-)

[NocturneNight]

Ya getting jumped by higher level players is annoying as hell, but thats PVP. Real PVP involves a sense of danger, it spices up the sometimes boring MMORPG world. And if you see 3 level 60 enemy players heading your way, and you cant run hide becouse they spotted you already, you basically dead if thats what they want. So at that point your only choice is to show respect and acknowledge the fact that they can stomp you into the dirt without breaking a sweat lol. /bow or /salute or if your really in deep trouble, /kneel. Time and time again I thought I was toast, but kneeled down a few seconds and maybe a bow...and they stop, then went on by. Im not too proud to show alittle respect, if it will save me a damn corpse run lol. But Im pretty new to WoW just a noob, what do I know hehe :-)

I never show respect, nothing more than a /wave to show them I'm neutral. Neutral, NOT friendly. They can decide what they want to do next, if they kill me so be it. I don't lose anything, they don't gain anything.

I do hate running opponents. Run into a 31 if you're 35 and he runs?? What a bloody coward. If something hits you, hit back goddamnit. I killed a 42 orc hunter trying to gank me by downing I healing pot at lvl 34ish.

[Atoz]

Since the winter festivities, when I see a higher faction comming my way, I turn into a snowman. that seemed to avoid a certain death a couple of times. One time though with no one around but my mate in Burning steeps I shifted into a snowman, and a rogue ganked me from behind. It was so funny I couldn't shift back to run away before I was dead.

[MorcOrc]

For what it's worth, I'll quote from the official policy (found at http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowgm/?id=agm01654p ):

Actions that would typically be considered "dishonorable" are considered appropriate actions in a PvP situation and will not be addressed by our Game Master (GM) staff. Dishonorable actions include, but are not limited to:

* Corpse camping.
* Tricking players into getting flagged for PvP (i.e. jumping in the middle of another player's area effect spell).
* Killing players well below your level.


I decided to put my views on this subject with the above quote included...

First, I have mainly played on PvE servers. I enjoy WoW, and to learn all I can about the game a PvE server is great.. I don't have to watch my back :) Plus, I can play BOTH sides on the same server, and experiance so much more of the game (by seeing it from both sides.) I have played every class to at least level 30... But something was.. well.. missing. I got a bit bored... and BG just isn't my cup of tea....

So, i started a new character on a new PvP server. Its GREAT!! Its thrilling to be playing and have to be 'aware' of whats going on around you in order to keep alive. One of the FIRST thrilling moments I had was taking my level 12 Tauran hunter all the way from Mulgore over to Dun Morogh and taming Mangeclaw. It was a FANTASTIC trip!! Yeah, i died multiple times. Level 12 running through Ariathi is just an invitation to critters to dinner :) Not to mention there were a couple times i got whacked by vastly higher level alliance. But, I stuck it through, and I managed to get the prize. The BEST part of it was directly AFTER I had tamed him, a dwarven hunter ran in with the same intentions... he shot at me, and then we went at it :) It was GREAT.... Grabbing that bear on the PvP server meant so much more than doing it on a PvE server because of the challanges I had to overcome.

Recently (this week) have began working on my Tauran Shaman. yeah, it basically sucks big time to be runing quests in contested area's and have that nice big mean Nelf Rogue smack you from behind (Where the heck did SHE COME FROM???) but you know, that is part of the game. More interesting are the times I am just minding my own business running from 1 place to another, and all of a sudden i have 3 DoT's on me, and 4 ?? players chasing me down... BANG!!! I'm dead... Well.. its not fun, but its part of the game. Then, to make it MORE interesting.. they decided to sit on my corpse for a little bit... that made it even MORE interesting :) Annoying? oh yeah.. not to many quests turned in that time.. Fun? yeah, it actually WAS... I took it as a personal challange to weasel my way out of their grasp.

Ganking.. it can mean alot of things to many different people.

Some people fight with a code of honor where they will not destroy what they consider a helpless enemy.

Some people fight with a code of honor that simply says "kill them all, camp the corpse, and make them miserable."

Different strokes for different folks.

To me, I just deal with it...
For others, its an annoyance.

But then, the quote at the top of my post pretty much dictates that on a PvP server..

Might makes Right....

One day, your the Mighty and your Right...
The next day, your the loser...

my advice? Roll with it.... Its a game.. Play for fun.. if your playing on a server and your not having fun? Change servers.. Change games.. but don't play if your not having fun...

Just my opinion....

[Dahbooo]

I read eveybody's views on the matter last night, then logged on, got my lvl 44 human rogue out and went to STV to finish off some quests... I have been ganked more times than I remember in STV, there was once a raid group, yes raid group of 12 lvl 60's just standing arround Nessingway's camp waiting for the really dangerous lvl 30's to hand in the tiger hunting quests... Othertimes you're just doing your buisness and a lvl 60 rogue in full Nightslayer wipes out your entire party... Why? Not because he can, because he's a twat and he can.
Anyway, personally, I do not kill greys, I've even let a lvl 8 horde kill me so he gets his first HK (I was walking through Tirisfal at lvl 35). I will however hit anything that attacks me and if you've attacked me once, you're fair game. I will attack players with very low life and PREFERABLY no mana, not because it's mean or easy, but because that's how a rogue does it, we don't have the high armour of warriors and Pala's we don't have the ranged attacks and pet of the hunter and no spells... I'd give you a fair fight if I could; I'd wear plate and a big 2h axe to make it fair to warriors, I'd cast fireballs, blink and AoE's to make it fair to mages... the problem is I can't, so I use everything I have and my character's main advantage is in the supprise attack.
So last night, in STV, I finish off Zanzil's mixture, no probs, then go north to do Skullsplitter Fetishs... I see a lvl 40 Undead Rogue fighting 2 trolls, he was low on health, very low, and so were the mobs. I stealth, move in, stand behind him, I wait for the mob to get very low on health, cheap-shot the rogue, one SS and he was gone. I actually felt bad, after reading all the posts you guys made me feel guilty. So he came back, he saw me, but when he res'd he aggrowed 4 trolls so I slapped on Sprint, blade furry, tried to take them all off him so he could heal and it worked; mobs dead, both of us alive (as much as an undead can be...) He was very greatfull and I appologised for before, we killed a few mobs together, almost hand in hand then went our own ways...
Later I see him in the troll camp but with a 48 druid, I wave at the rogue, salute the druid, they point at Wotsit the Undying, I went stealth, we attacked, killed him (and I do want to appologise to the rogue cos I used blade furry and it was hitting him so he died again and it was my fault, sorry) I guess they were questing and needed to kill the bastard, I doubt they would have done it without me (not cos they're crap, just alot of adds). We went our separate ways...
Later a lvl 60 was bragging about killing them, I didn't feel bad because many horde lvl 60's have gone out of their way to kill me. One thing STV has taught me, is to never ever let your health drop too much when fighting mobs, always regen to full before moving to the next target, always check behind you and just be carefull. I like 1 on 1 pvp in STV, I like finding a target, stalking him and attacking. I don't always win, I'm not a very good pvp'er but I'm learning. The other day I just hit lvl 44, got Phantom Blade and felt all powerfull, went out in STV, found a lvl 43 Cow Warrior with a lvl 45 Cow Shaman, they were fighting, they let their health get low, I attacked: cheap-shot warrior, blade furry... killed the warrior. Then I died. They came back and so did I, I attacked again, they killed me... I got the point and moved on. Now you can't say I'm a ganker for that! Even if I was maybe a pain in the ass.
The point I'm trying to make is that ganking wont stop so you've got to get used to it, really, if you get all aggrovated it'll ruin your day. There's nothing you can do to stop that pre-pubescent moron on a power-trip so just res out of sight and move. I try to play by certain ethics; I see Aliance as honourable and vertuous and so I try to play that way... a bit difficult being a noble assassin mind you... So I just kill things that I think could or should be able to fight back and win, even if I make the fight go my way by attacking when they're low. Also, I kill once, then I don't hide, I salute. That means "You now know I can kill you, what follows is your choice" If they attack, they die. I rolled pvp and wouldn't change, I would like ganking to stop but it wont, and to all those who say "reroll PvE if you don't like it" you sir, you are a moron, nobody should have to leave because you're being an obnoxious retard. Oh and those who think "this is war, free for all" read previous sentance. There are laws in war, germans and allies played football in No-mans-land, drank tea and coffee together at Christmas, didn't shoot medics, didn't bomb hospitals... even enemy factions find courtousy and respect, you didn't shoot a medic because he was trying to help a wounded and because generally they only had a pistol, THEY COULDN'T DEFEND THEMSELVES! Just like people in a hospital... point is, if you think you're tough, a good pvp player, well kitted or whatever, take on someone who at least has a chance of killing you... Horde who go to Darkshire, climb ontop of a building and one-shot lvl 20's... bravo, yes you crit me for 900, wow, you are such a warrior! *Yawn*

[CARPPOOONU]

Just Make A To Do List When You All Hit Lvl 60 And Pwn The Pansy That Ganked You Its That Easy! Be A Rogue Ganking Is There Proffession In Life!

AND NOT FAIR I AGREE, BUT WHEN ITS YOU DOING THE GANKING YOU TEND TO LOVE EVERY SECOND OF IT! CHASING THE LOWBIE DOWN GETS THE ATTENTION OF THERE HIGHER GUILDIES OR THERE MAINS AND IT CAN CAUSE A TRUE FIGHT TO COME JUST FOR PWNING SOME NEWB THATS OUT OF HIS WAY AND NOT SMART ENOUGH TO RUN FROM YOU. :afro:



YOU BETTER RUN FROM THE BIG BLACK UNDEAD ROGUE! ILL STEAL THOSE WRATH BOOTS AND MAKE YOU SIT ON A THUNDERFLURRY!

[mesonm]

Just Make A To Do List When You All Hit Lvl 60 And Pwn The Pansy That Ganked You Its That Easy! Be A Rogue Ganking Is There Proffession In Life!

AND NOT FAIR I AGREE, BUT WHEN ITS YOU DOING THE GANKING YOU TEND TO LOVE EVERY SECOND OF IT! CHASING THE LOWBIE DOWN GETS THE ATTENTION OF THERE HIGHER GUILDIES OR THERE MAINS AND IT CAN CAUSE A TRUE FIGHT TO COME JUST FOR PWNING SOME NEWB THATS OUT OF HIS WAY AND NOT SMART ENOUGH TO RUN FROM YOU. :afro:



YOU BETTER RUN FROM THE BIG BLACK UNDEAD ROGUE! ILL STEAL THOSE WRATH BOOTS AND MAKE YOU SIT ON A THUNDERFLURRY!

You chose THIS for your first post? How pathetic.....