Hardcore vs. Casual Gamers = NO skill difference!

[Hydrated]

This article is linked on the front page of worldofwar.net and it caught my eye because of the recent threads on this forum concerning the differences between casual and hardcore gamers.

Skills and MMORPG's (http://www.actiontrip.com/features/skillandmmorpgs.phtml)

This guy is expressing the same views that I hold... he just does it more eloquently than I do! I believe that the only thing keeping most casual players from obtaining the "uber-loot" in WoW is their refusal to play the game as a member of a hardcore group of players for hours on end. The PvP rewards are a great example of this phenomenon... you don't even have to be that great to move up... you just have to put in the time.

Of course there ARE exceptions to this rule. Some players do posses superior in-game skills, but those players are few and far between. And they're probably not the ones that you see decked out in their nice armor sets and such.

The author makes one point brutally clear... MMORPG's tend to reward those players who have no life outside the game. And I agree.

(I'm curious to see how long it takes for the first "You don't know 'cause you haven't killed Ony!" post to pop up!)

[Twoflower]

you dont know cause you didnt kill ony :P

well seriously, i mostly agree, on the other hand i also think it is fair, if you wanna spend 50 + hours a week in a game you may as well should be rewarded more

[Lowkey]

This article is linked on the front page of worldofwar.net and it caught my eye because of the recent threads on this forum concerning the differences between casual and hardcore gamers.

Skills and MMORPG's (http://www.actiontrip.com/features/skillandmmorpgs.phtml)

This guy is expressing the same views that I hold... he just does it more eloquently than I do! I believe that the only thing keeping most casual players from obtaining the "uber-loot" in WoW is their refusal to play the game as a member of a hardcore group of players for hours on end. The PvP rewards are a great example of this phenomenon... you don't even have to be that great to move up... you just have to put in the time.

Of course there ARE exceptions to this rule. Some players do posses superior in-game skills, but those players are few and far between. And they're probably not the ones that you see decked out in their nice armor sets and such.

The author makes one point brutally clear... MMORPG's tend to reward those players who have no life outside the game. And I agree.

(I'm curious to see how long it takes for the first "You don't know 'cause you haven't killed Ony!" post to pop up!)

I agree entirely. But, I dont think its a bad thing that those with the time to play more often get the better rewards. It would take the value away from the item if anybody could obtain it. I consider myself a casual gamer as well. Between being in the military, deployments, visiting family/friends, and hanging out on weekends, you can see that I dont always have the time to play WoW. It can often feel like we're being penelized for living our real lives, but I'm sure that those spending excessive amounts of time playing the game are lacking in certain aspects of their life too. Its just a matter of weighing in the pros and cons. I'm sure I could play a lot more WoW if I quit my job and moved back in with my mom and dad, but im not going to (they still use dial-up). So, I cant be made that I dont have the absolute best stuff.

[northernlights]

This article seems bitter and opinionated to me.

He sounds like someone who didn't have the skill to progress in a few of the games he mentions.

[220683]

I thought it was pretty obvious, especially since MMORPG companies get more $$$ the more time you play.

Of course they are going to reward you more the more time (money) you spend...

Generally, the more you do something the better you're at it. It's just how human works, there's no mystery. Now in the case of WoW, there isn't enough depth nor is there any incentive for Blizzard to reward those casual yet skilled players more than hardcore players.

So there you have it, time is money.

[Zarmon]

I thought it was pretty obvious, especially since MMORPG companies get more $$$ the more time you play.

Of course they are going to reward you more the more time (money) you spend...

Generally, the more you do something the better you're at it. It's just how human works, there's no mystery. Now in the case of WoW, there isn't enough depth nor is there any incentive for Blizzard to reward those casual yet skilled players more than hardcore players.

So there you have it, time is money.

Errr... I only pay £8 a month no matter how much I play... you may want to rethink your answer

[toader]

He sounds like someone who didn't have the skill to progress in a few of the games he mentions.Thats his whole point. It doesnt take skill to be good at these games. By skill, I think he refers to dexterity type of skills. It does take mental skill and decent thought though.

But really...WoW is not a hard game. It takes little skill to play it well. Its just very captivating and fun to do.

[tylerdurden]

Just thinking out loud and haven't thought it all the way through or anything. Really just throwing an idea out for discussion but...

Might it not be of value for Blizzard (and other MMORPG's) to offer a lower cost subscription for casual gamers who would then play on "casual" servers. Those accounts would limit a person to 15 (or so) hours of play per week? And those "casual" servers might have some other tweaks to the dynamics aimed at the casual player...

But then on those servers it might not be such a dramatic case of the person with the least life having an advantage...

[Hydrated]

This article seems bitter and opinionated to me.

He sounds like someone who didn't have the skill to progress in a few of the games he mentions.

Good thing none of us here are opinionated, huh? :whistle:

[LunarSolaris]

Those who spend 50+ hours per week in WoW (or other MMORPG's) are rewarded with "virtual" items... pixels on a computer screen.

Those who spend 50+ hours per week in the "real world" are awarded "real world" things - such as my vacation to Hawaii in 2 months.

I choose Hawaii over MC or Onyxia gear.

As to the article - I generally agree. However, I hold no ill-will to those that have all the "best" gear in the game. They play a lot - therefore it makes sense that they have the high-end items. In the end, the "hard core" gamers probably have an overall edge over a more casual gamer... but the end result of a video game shouldn't be who's the "best" as it should be to have fun.

I play WoW to have fun... not to park my toon at the AH bridge for everyone to gawk at.

[northernlights]

Thats his whole point. It doesnt take skill to be good at these games. By skill, I think he refers to dexterity type of skills. It does take mental skill and decent thought though.

But really...WoW is not a hard game. It takes little skill to play it well. Its just very captivating and fun to do.

I disagree toader... WoW is just a game where you set the difficulty bar yourself. 5-man too easy? Take 4. Etc. The amount of skill required will increase with fewer people.

Same goes for encounters like Onyxia...that fight takes a great deal of skill on an individual level, something it appears the author of this piece never got to.

There are two examples, but I'l include a third as I believe you, Toader are a Warlock. I (a Mage) run over 90% of Warlocks I face. But the ones I encounter that are truly skilled will own me (and almost anyone else) six ways from sunday.

I personally think there are a lot of different aspects of WoW that require skill, but it seems the author never reached the point in the game where skill starts to matter.

[thejdawg2]

Sounds like a disgruntled CS/UT player. It's odd that he talks of arrogance of the Hardcore gamer, while ignoring the arrogance that many FPS players seem to have over MMO players.

And what's really weird, playing an FPS more means that you generally are better than someone who plays it very little.

Shocking, I know. At least to this guy.


Oh yeah. I wonder if it was purposeful or accidental that he didn't mention that fatal1ty has no job and money from gaming tournaments provides his income. He plays all day to insure he is the best, much as the people he is criticizing.

[IlidanStormrage]

MMORPG's don't require much skill at all. Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, Onyxia, they are all about coordination. It doesn't take "skill" to spam shadow bolt, or frost bolt, or anything. The fights are all simple and easy once you learn them.

MMO's are about how much time you dedicate. If you spend 50+ hours a week in the game, you deserve better loot than someone who spends 10. I think there should be more quests for epic items outside raids though. This way, "casual" players can get epics. It will take them longer, but they get it. No MMO is gonna change to be "casual" friendly.

[northernlights]

MMORPG's don't require much skill at all. Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, Onyxia, they are all about coordination. It doesn't take "skill" to spam shadow bolt, or frost bolt, or anything. The fights are all simple and easy once you learn them.

MMO's are about how much time you dedicate. If you spend 50+ hours a week in the game, you deserve better loot than someone who spends 10. I think there should be more quests for epic items outside raids though. This way, "casual" players can get epics. It will take them longer, but they get it. No MMO is gonna change to be "casual" friendly.

LOL sounds as if someones guild is avoiding giving them any real responsibility.

If you think tanking Onyxia or being the only AOE on a whelp team doesnt require skill your mistaken. And how far have you gotten in BWL to claim it doesnt require skill?

[DrunkCajun]

Those who spend 50+ hours per week in the "real world" are awarded "real world" things - such as my vacation to Hawaii in 2 months.

I choose Hawaii over MC or Onyxia gear.

Woohoo!

Aeval and I leave for Cancun in 10 days! :happy34:

A week at the beach, at a 2 bedroom condo with two friends of mine with no worries at all besides downing Pacifico Claras and margaritas while laying on the beach, or visiting underwater Mayan ruins for free (because some of my friends around DC know people in Cancun who work in the tourism industry down there and are hooking us up--that's that whole social thing workin for me there).

Onyxia can stick her gear where the sun ain't shinin. I'll be enjoying beaches and beers.

[Maxxim]

The author comes off as being a little whiney about MMOs. I understand his point (though don't entirely agree with it), but it's not that well made.

I think what the author, and plenty of other people, call "skill," is in reality "experience." It's easy to say hard core gamers don't have more skill (whether true or not), but you can't argue the fact that they have more experience.

That's really what it comes down to. Compare a players first time doing MC to their tenth. They probably aren't more skilled the tenth time, but they certainly have the experience of nine other runs helping them. So obviously they are going to do it much better, and make themselves look better.

Take pvp for example. A person who plays enough will know that if he is a rogue, and he is up against a warlock (just two random choices), he should open with X move, and if that warlock does some specific thing, he should counter with Y move, but if the warlock does this other thing, the rogue should do Z. Then, if he goes up against a warrior who does some specific thing, he has to...

You get the picture. I will probably never learn all the intricacies and super-specific moves to be able to beat that player in a dual. He's not necessarily more skilled than I am, but he certainly has more pertinent knowledge about the encounter, gained from experience, that will help him mop the floor with me, and because of the 50 hours he played last week, he can probably anticipate my next move.

If someone plays enough to be this experienced, good for them if it makes them happy. It wouldn't make me happy, but everyone is different. But hard core gamers do have an edge oftentimes over casual gamers, whether you call it skill or experience or whatever. They've earned that edge by putting in the time, so why fault them for it? Everyone puts time into something and is rewarded for it. Some people choose MMOs for their time. There's nothing wrong with rewarding them.

[DrunkCajun]

(I'm curious to see how long it takes for the first "You don't know 'cause you haven't killed Ony!" post to pop up!)

Not counting the joke, I think the official score was 14 posts.

[BlackLeaf]

Well IMHO, it's either replace your real life playing an MMO to have all the top gear, or replace your real life playing an FPS like UT to be the top player who never makes any mistakes and is never killed once like Fata1ity. I've played my fair share of UT2k4, and what annoys me the most is how the game brings this feeling that I am required to keep playing it in order to maintain a certain skill level for the game to be fun. Otherwise all I end up doing is running around being killed by everyone, and I think anyone could agree that after awhile, that would get tiring.

An MMO on the other hand saves that time you've invested into it, so a casual gamer like myself can not log in for longer periods of time, but still have the same character I had when I last logged out when I decide to come back, instead of comparing it to UT's model where it would be my character loses X number of levels for Y number of hours that I'm not logged in. WoW's model is much more appealing to me because it allows me to break away from the game whenever I need to, and still have the same or greater enjoyment level of the game when I come back. Just my humble 2 cents.

[Amyss]

Skill is playing the guitar, shooting hoops, hitting a golfball, kicking a soccer ball.

Skill is writing a poem that shakes peoples' emotions.

WoW has nothing to do with skill.

[toader]

There are two examples, but I'l include a third as I believe you, Toader are a Warlock. I (a Mage) run over 90% of Warlocks I face. But the ones I encounter that are truly skilled will own me (and almost anyone else) six ways from sunday.Thats because the game is a rock/paper/scissors set up. I thought you had known that.



I personally think there are a lot of different aspects of WoW that require skill, but it seems the author never reached the point in the game where skill starts to matter.No, there are no areas of wow that require great skill. If you think this, then you are only boosting your own ego. I guess if you suck at the rest of life, then maybe you think its skillful doing certain things in wow, but Im here to tell you....its not skill.

Maybe your confusing skill with thinking... Sure, many situations require thinking, and careful contemplation to figure the situation out, but thats not skill, thats thought. Nothing in wow requires 'skill' to do. Its more like a game of chess.

If you want to call yourself smart or savvy for figuring out WoW (which I have no doubt you will) then fine, do so. But dont call it skill. Leave terms like skill for those who play sports, or games like Halo 2, and the like.

It takes ZERO skill to press the right buttons once youve found a strategy and organized things.

[northernlights]

Thats because the game is a rock/paper/scissors set up. I thought you had known that.



No, there are no areas of wow that require great skill. If you think this, then you are only boosting your own ego. I guess if you suck at the rest of life, then maybe you think its skillful doing certain things in wow, but Im here to tell you....its not skill.

Maybe your confusing skill with thinking... Sure, many situations require thinking, and careful contemplation to figure the situation out, but thats not skill, thats thought. Nothing in wow requires 'skill' to do. Its more like a game of chess.

If you want to call yourself smart or savvy for figuring out WoW (which I have no doubt you will) then fine, do so. But dont call it skill. Leave terms like skill for those who play sports, or games like Halo 2, and the like.

It takes ZERO skill to press the right buttons once youve found a strategy and organized things.


This made me burst out laughing. I think your definition of skill = reflexes. My definition includes reflexes, but also thinking among other things.

I've played many, many games in my time and most of the titles on par with WoW in terms of all around skill are previous Blizzard titles. I personally don't think hand-eye coordination = gaming skill but its part of it, no doubt.

[Jomey Q]

Maybe your confusing skill with thinking... Sure, many situations require thinking, and careful contemplation to figure the situation out, but thats not skill, thats thought. Nothing in wow requires 'skill' to do. Its more like a game of chess.



So are you saying there's no such thing as a 'skilled' chess player? Why can't proper strategy and contemplation be considered skills? It doesn't really make much sense to exclusively apply the term to athletic ability or hand-eye coordination, especially seeing as how it's used much more broadly in the english language.

[Etoh the Mighty]

Ever heard someone say, "He was a skilled tactician" or "He was skilled at battle strategy?" Guess what that implies? Thinking is a skill. Sure, anyone can think out strategies, but are they good at it? Being good at something implies you have more skill in that area than others. You're right in that WoW is no twitch game, but it can be as intellectually challenging or intellectually dulled as you want it to be.

[Hydrated]

WoW's model is much more appealing to me because it allows me to break away from the game whenever I need to, and still have the same or greater enjoyment level of the game when I come back. Just my humble 2 cents.


The implementation of "Rested XP" shows us that Blizzard was indeed thinking of casual gamers when they designed this game. I think that it is a brilliant idea. Why?

- MMORPG's tend to be social games. The rested XP allows more infrequent players to have at least a chance to catch up with their friends who play more often. If you don't play for a few days... at least you'll have an opportunity to level quickly enough to quest along with your buddies.

[Etoh the Mighty]

So are you saying there's no such thing as a 'skilled' chess player? Why can't proper strategy and contemplation be considered skills? It doesn't really make much sense to exclusively apply the term to athletic ability or hand-eye coordination, especially seeing as how it's used much more broadly in the english language.
Posted the same thought at the same time. High five. :lol:

[Amyss]

I wouldn't call being good at WoW skilled. I would call it experienced.

Big difference if you get what I am saying.

[northernlights]

Heheheh, rested XP benefits the 'hardcore' gamer every bit as much as the casual one.

There are so many threads inquiring as to how to level up fast... the truth is, play 3 or 4 toons so your always working off or rested xp.

You're seeing a lot of people now with 2, 3, 4 characters at level 60 - rested XP is why.

[toader]

I guess our definition of 'skill' in video games (video games only) varies.

I guess I just dont throw the word around as much, and have a more narrow focus of what it is. I dont use it as an adjective.

[Amyss]

Let me elaborate a sec...

In WoW, what you will do in any certain situation is pre-meditated. And this pre-thought out plan was derived from what has worked for you in the past.

If a mage sees a hunter...his experience will tell him to frost nova pet...and blink into the hunter (or whatever he does that works). His premeditated plans will also be applied to any other situation.

Skill is completely different than experience. But experience is required to gain skill.

WoW just does not really apply skill. It applies experience.

Take your culture. For most of you this is American culture:

We watch sports on TV. We watch figure skaters and musicals/concerts. We do not watch people playing video games (well..some of you actually do I'd wager). This is because people can relate to the skill involved in doing what these athletes/composers do. They realize what it takes to be as good as they are. Games just take time. No skill. Just experience.

[dezzycloss]

Skill is playing the guitar, shooting hoops, hitting a golfball, kicking a soccer ball.

Skill is writing a poem that shakes peoples' emotions.

WoW has nothing to do with skill.

This man speaks the Gospel . There arent many people in modern society between the ages of early teens until id say fiftyish who cannot move a mouse and click a little box.

WoW is more to do with tactics than skill .. nuff said.

[Etoh the Mighty]

Again, knowing strategies doesn't mean your skilled? C'mon, skill is as much experience as it is talent. Talent is little more than the latent potential to have skill. You have to excercise that talent before it actually becomes something. A skilled Tennis player doesn't win Wimbelton on his first match. A skilled martial artist isn't someone who can counter against a mugger with flawless Tai'Chi Pe'Chuan without a day's practice. Skill is a combination of latent potential and practice or experience.
And actually, there IS competitive gaming. It does require skill. FPS's require tactical knowledge (knowledge of something is considered a job skill btw), as well as manual dexterity.

[northernlights]

What a diverse forum we have...

The ones that claim things like basketball require skill while WoW does not just crack me up.

skill Audio pronunciation of "skill" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (skl)
n.

1. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.

One skill we're all overlooking in all of this is social skill. From leading a pickup group to cooperating with others on raids, social skills play a huge roll in MMORPGs.

Being nice to people over the long term nets huge rewards in games like this, which is something it seems most players fail to realize.

[Etoh the Mighty]

So perhaps some of our basketball players here need to brush up on their social skills. :uhhuh:

[northernlights]

So perhaps some of our basketball players here need to brush up on their social skills. :uhhuh:

Yes, they seem to require further clarification on the definition of 'consensual'. =)

[toader]

What a diverse forum we have...

The ones that claim things like basketball require skill while WoW does not just crack me up.

skill Audio pronunciation of "skill" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (skl)
n.

1. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.

One skill we're all overlooking in all of this is social skill. From leading a pickup group to cooperating with others on raids, social skills play a huge roll in MMORPGs.

Being nice to people over the long term nets huge rewards in games like this, which is something it seems most players fail to realize.
Ok, since I dont care...how about I just proclaim you as right so you still feel good about yourself.

I mean, I can understand I would be upset too if someone denounced the only thing I was 'good' at. It would kinda make you feel lost and wonder what your purpose was if the only thing you were 'good' got blown off as easy.

Anyways...for the sake of your well being and betterment, we will just go ahead say youre right, and applaude you for your 1337 skillz.

Maybe now, along with your bo staff skills, you will be wanted in all the school gangs.

[DrunkCajun]

Let me finish your post there for ya.

skill Audio pronunciation of "skill" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (skl)
n.

1. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.

2.
a. An art, trade, or technique, particularly one requiring use of the hands or body.
b. A developed talent or ability: writing skills.

# Obsolete. A reason; a cause.

And for kicks, to keep it interesting:


tac·tics Audio pronunciation of "tactics" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tktks)
n.

1.
1. (used with a sing. verb) The military science that deals with securing objectives set by strategy, especially the technique of deploying and directing troops, ships, and aircraft in effective maneuvers against an enemy: Tactics is a required course at all military academies.
2. (used with a pl. verb) Maneuvers used against an enemy: Guerrilla tactics were employed during most of the war.
2. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) A procedure or set of maneuvers engaged in to achieve an end, an aim, or a goal.

[northernlights]

Ok, since I dont care...how about I just proclaim you as right so you still feel good about yourself.

I mean, I can understand I would be upset too if someone denounced the only thing I was 'good' at. It would kinda make you feel lost and wonder what your purpose was if the only thing you were 'good' got blown off as easy.

Anyways...for the sake of your well being and betterment, we will just go ahead say youre right, and applaude you for your 1337 skillz.

Maybe now, along with your bo staff skills, you will be wanted in all the school gangs.

You really are a sour, bitter little man.

To myself and others this is a meaningful and interesting discussion, take your negativity elsewhere. I've never claimed to be better than anyone and the things I do best in life are certainly not done in a game.

Go flame somewhere else.

[Hydrated]

Yes, they seem to require further clarification on the definition of 'consensual'. =)

"unilaterally consensual"?

[Amyss]

This will be the last time I post on this topic because I have the overwhelming fealing that nothing I say will change any of your minds.

Take my example in the most light-hearted way you can...I do not mean to offend anyone that puts a bigger value on WoW than myself.

You just got a guitar...you try to play something but realize you can't. You won't be able to for quite a while either. Your hands and fingers need to toughen up....your fingers need to become flexible...and so on.
This happened to me by the way...

Now, my guitar skills are crap at this point. I cannot even play a chord. During the same day...I pick up a copy of WoW. Since I am, in fact, naturally able to play games (especially these kind and fps) I do not think I will have much trouble.

I log on, create a char, and BAM! What is all this stuff? ooooh. an exclamation point means a quest. K! So I am running around (easy controls) and killing things. I knew everything then that I know now. As I leveled up I acquired new skills on my char that I easily could identify situations for which to use them.

I haven't had anything to actually LEARN in WoW. My character learned new skills himself...but I just applied them with my own common knowledge. No skill like the guitar...just application of coding vs coding.

Hope this clarifies...
I look forward to battles in other threads as well.

[DrunkCajun]

Okay, everyone take a big ol' flaming shot of chill out.

Fluffy no likey flaming, and I'm seeing lots of it coming from every direction in here. Let's keep it friendly, shall we?

[Euro-Crash]

In reading this article, I would have to say that I am in agreement with the author. I believe the intent of the article is to say that those who are rewarded most in MMORPGs are those who play the most.

Skill or no skill, if you play more than others you will more than likely have the best items equipped on your character. It appears that the author is attempting to state that the "skills" employed in the fictitious realms of MMORPG do not count for anything.

Nobody in the real world really cares too much if I have a level 60 priest...nor do they care if I have acheived the High Warlord ranking in PvP competition for WoW.

I also feel that the author is attempting to draw a boundary between skill and an unconscious primative instinct that most hardcore gamers develop. I think at times the purest hardcore gamers do not have to rely on skill...that it is no longer part of their conscious thought process to determine which action will bring them closer to victory or the realization of their in-game goals.

[Etoh the Mighty]

Ok, since I dont care...how about I just proclaim you as right so you still feel good about yourself.

I mean, I can understand I would be upset too if someone denounced the only thing I was 'good' at. It would kinda make you feel lost and wonder what your purpose was if the only thing you were 'good' got blown off as easy.

Anyways...for the sake of your well being and betterment, we will just go ahead say youre right, and applaude you for your 1337 skillz.

Maybe now, along with your bo staff skills, you will be wanted in all the school gangs.

Whoa-ho! Realized he couldn't construct a decent argument regardless of whether or not Northern may have been correct and defaulted to personal attack mode! Zing!
I can respect an opinion that is politly stated and given thought and consideration, even if I disagree at it, but the moment you start to regress to personal attacks (EVEN IF YOU'RE RIGHT) you've lost the argument.

[northernlights]

I agree Euro, I think that summarizes his point fairly well.

It would, however have been nice if he had referenced some end-game experience in any of the MMORPG's mentioned. It's a little difficult for me to take his point seriously as he speculates on what the end game 'will be like'.

You should re-write the article Euro =)

Your fairly impartial and seem to really understand where the casual gamer is coming from, but have some end game experience yourself to speak of.

[Amyss]

Actually, it was stupid for me to say that "this was the last time I am going to post on this topic."

I am actually very interested in what you have to say about my last post - Etoh and co.

[Etoh the Mighty]

This will be the last time I post on this topic because I have the overwhelming fealing that nothing I say will change any of your minds.

Take my example in the most light-hearted way you can...I do not mean to offend anyone that puts a bigger value on WoW than myself.

You just got a guitar...you try to play something but realize you can't. You won't be able to for quite a while either. Your hands and fingers need to toughen up....your fingers need to become flexible...and so on.
This happened to me by the way...

Now, my guitar skills are crap at this point. I cannot even play a chord. During the same day...I pick up a copy of WoW. Since I am, in fact, naturally able to play games (especially these kind and fps) I do not think I will have much trouble.

I log on, create a char, and BAM! What is all this stuff? ooooh. an exclamation point means a quest. K! So I am running around (easy controls) and killing things. I knew everything then that I know now. As I leveled up I acquired new skills on my char that I easily could identify situations for which to use them.

I haven't had anything to actually LEARN in WoW. My character learned new skills himself...but I just applied them with my own common knowledge. No skill like the guitar...just application of coding vs coding.

Hope this clarifies...
I look forward to battles in other threads as well.
Edit: Amyss, just saw your post above. Who am I to disappoint? I'm enjoying this discussion. ^_^

Now, I can see where you're coming from in this regard. A lot of what you've described is basically classical conditioning at it's finest. A lot of us have played MMO's before this, so yes, we will know a lot of how to handle battles, because a lot of the mechanics do carry over. That doesn't cheapen the fact that you still had to learn how to fight properly though. I had to learn about tanking, how to apply it properly, I had to gain the abbility to time my spells so that I didn't get aggro while playing a mage, I had to learn how to work in the specifics of an MMO community to get good groups and guilds. Those skills probably amount to zilch in real life, but they're still some of them skills. The quest thing is definitely conditioning. "I am curious about this big exclamation point. OOH QUEST! *goes to click more exclamation points*"

Edit Deux: I think a lot of the hang ups in the discussion here is whether or not any of the "skill" gained playing these games is relevant in real life. I have no illusions that when I'm retired, my leet gnome is gonna amount to diddly. The "combat skills" gained in this game and a quarter will buy you a hot cup of jack squat in the real world. Oh, and I'm a casual gamer. I've got too much schoolin', girl friendin', and cosplayin' to do to play this game hard core.

[Lord_Shinnok]

Alright, anyone that says this game takes skill are trying to pump of their own lives. Are you under the impression that girls only like guys with skills?

Come on people, this game is trial and error and any human being with average intelligence and enough time can get to 60 and run MC. I know level 60's that run MC and are for all that I’ve seen idiots in general. They merely either know the tricks from doing something over and over or just do as they're told by others. Where is the skill in that? People who call it skill probably lack what most consider real skills and merely want to justify what they are doing. Obvious what i am saying (along with some others) is like being told what you do with your life is worthless. People don't like being told that so your reaction is predictable.


And to those who blend skill and experience an example for you. I played violin for 9 years but i never became skilled at it even with all that experience. People younger than me with the proper skills were ten times as good even though i had played longer. They had skill, i had experience and they were still better.

So in conclusion, if you think clicking a button for 2 hours is a skill then you make my mustache growing skills look like crap.

[Amyss]

Now, I can see where you're coming from in this regard. A lot of what you've described is basically classical conditioning at it's finest. A lot of us have played MMO's before this, so yes, we will know a lot of how to handle battles, because a lot of the mechanics do carry over. That doesn't cheapen the fact that you still had to learn how to fight properly though. I had to learn about tanking, how to apply it properly, I had to gain the abbility to time my spells so that I didn't get aggro while playing a mage, I had to learn how to work in the specifics of an MMO community to get good groups and guilds. Those skills probably amount to zilch in real life, but they're still some of them skills. The quest thing is definitely conditioning. "I am curious about this big exclamation point. OOH QUEST! *goes to click more exclamation points*"

See...I do not understand what you mean by learning how to tank and timing your spells. I thought it was common knowledge *flashes back to first mmo* that if you do nothing but keep blasting...the target will hate you and try to kill you. Likewise, I thought it was obvious that a tanks job is to taunt the mobs and keep em off the players that are not built to be beaten on.

I guess my main point is..I never really learn anything from these games. I just find new things that I need to apply. Every game is the same to me...but the way they are the same is different. That is why I still play. (that was probably the most confusing sentence I have ever written in my life)....

Anywho. I can see how one might think what you are describing is a skill...but I think it falls more along the lines of having a militaristic mind-set.

[toader]

Whoa-ho! Realized he couldn't construct a decent argument regardless of whether or not Northern may have been correct and defaulted to personal attack mode! Zing! Nah, I had no decent argument back towards me since my second post about what skill was. So, since I like to post, I still felt like saying something. :)

I can respect an opinion that is politly stated and given thought and consideration, even if I disagree at it, but the moment you start to regress to personal attacks (EVEN IF YOU'RE RIGHT) you've lost the argument.Well, once youve heard his postings around here for the last few weeks, you kinda get tired of listening to how good and skilled he is, and how hard it is to do the end-game things he and his super raid guild do, and blah blah blah. Considering Ive tried to defend him in the past, and hes turned on me...this is the product of the past.

[Etoh the Mighty]

Shinookums See my edit above... and many of my posts before that. Clicking the mouse takes no skill. In chess, picking up a pawn and placing it down on a random square takes no skill. Knowing how to do it is though. Knowledge is a skill. Those monkeys that scientists place in a room with a banana hanging from the ceiling practice trial and error too, but the development of intelligence that comes from said trial and error results in a skill more or less. Again, I'm not saying it's a reality relevant skill. Just that it is one. You can reach level 60 with skill and raid with skill, or you can be an idiot and just keep plugging along. Hell, I like plugging along slowly. It's taken me three months to reach level 20. Why? I spend most of my time just messing around. And I do that in all MMOs. I've never reached max level on any game I've played.

[northernlights]

Alright, anyone that says this game takes skill are trying to pump of their own lives. Are you under the impression that girls only like guys with skills?

Come on people, this game is trial and error and any human being with average intelligence and enough time can get to 60 and run MC. I know level 60's that run MC and are for all that I’ve seen idiots in general. They merely either know the tricks from doing something over and over or just do as they're told by others. Where is the skill in that? People who call it skill probably lack what most consider real skills and merely want to justify what they are doing. Obvious what i am saying (along with some others) is like being told what you do with your life is worthless. People don't like being told that so your reaction is predictable.


And to those who blend skill and experience an example for you. I played violin for 9 years but i never became skilled at it even with all that experience. People younger than me with the proper skills were ten times as good even though i had played longer. They had skill, i had experience and they were still better.

So in conclusion, if you think clicking a button for 2 hours is a skill then you make my mustache growing skills look like crap.


Figures, you play a Rogue and a Pally! MC is easy once you have experience, I'l be the first to admit that... but don't tell me achieving Warlord rank does not, because that takes more skill (and yes, time) than I'm capable of.

[toader]

Etoh,

All this time Ive seen you debating about what skill is, and what it means to have skill.

But I havent seen you answer/address the question at hand.

Do YOU think it takes 'skill' to play WoW. Using any definition of skill presented in this thread. What do you think?

[Etoh the Mighty]

See...I do not understand what you mean by learning how to tank and timing your spells. I thought it was common knowledge *flashes back to first mmo* that if you do nothing but keep blasting...the target will hate you and try to kill you. Likewise, I thought it was obvious that a tanks job is to taunt the mobs and keep em off the players that are not built to be beaten on.

I guess my main point is..I never really learn anything from these games. I just find new things that I need to apply. Every game is the same to me...but the way they are the same is different. That is why I still play. (that was probably the most confusing sentence I have ever written in my life)....

Anywho. I can see how one might think what you are describing is a skill...but I think it falls more along the lines of having a militaristic mind-set.
A militaristic mind-set implies a latent talent for military strategy, correct? Talent is a part of skill, and it is widely aknowledge that skill is a profficiency in something. If you are strategically minded, you have a profficiency with strategy, and are therefor strategically skilled (Circular reasoning. Egads.).
What you're not realizing is that you have learned something from these games. The first time you step out with a mage/wizard/blackmage/doomspeller/leet drood and start blasting away in a group, you find that the mob attacks you. Suddenly you think, "well gee, I need to not keep blasting." Congratulations. You've just gaind the abbility to learn a skill. Not Sun Tzu art of war skills perhaps, but it is still knowledge of this opens the door to experimentation in timing to see how you can still do a lot of damage without accruing much hate.

[northernlights]

Well, once youve heard his postings around here for the last few weeks, you kinda get tired of listening to how good and skilled he is, and how hard it is to do the end-game things he and his super raid guild do, and blah blah blah. Considering Ive tried to defend him in the past, and hes turned on me...this is the product of the past.

WoW Toader. WOW! This explains quite a bit, I didn't realize we had a grudge match going. I'l take the side of fact/truth every time, regardless of where you stand.

Either way, I'm not going to sink to commenting on your tact/character - if you want to reference a previous post where I discuss my level of skill please do - I would like to read it!

And the next time you want to carry a grudge, at least let me know so I don't mistakenly think your speaking from experience.

[Etoh the Mighty]

Etoh,

All this time Ive seen you debating about what skill is, and what it means to have skill.

But I havent seen you answer/address the question at hand.

Do YOU think it takes 'skill' to play WoW. Using any definition of skill presented in this thread. What do you think?

I came into this fruitless argument at a time when the definition of skill was being debated and so I debated it. Hehe... Anyway, yes. I do think WoW takes skill. In certain areas. And with the stipulation that it is not great world shaking skill. Nor is it any amount of skill that would inspire little children world over to be a great WoW player. It does take a modicum of skill, though. Nearly any activity you perform during the day takes some skill, save perhaps eating and sleeping.

I want it to be said, though, that it is not my intention to make anyone angry or rile anyone up. If I've done so in my meaningless ponderances, I do appologize.

[toader]

but don't tell me achieving Warlord rank does not, because that takes more skill (and yes, time) than I'm capable of.Ill be the first to tell you that if noone else did. In the current system, it takes NO skill to be top ranked in honor. All it takes is time. I dont care what previous arguments weve had in here about what skill is/isnt...but we both know that time doesnt equal skill.


I'l take the side of fact/truth every time, regardless of where you stand.As will I. It just so happens we disagree on this issue. Im not bringing up the past, Im reacting to it with now gained experience...similar to how wow works. :happy34:

[Amyss]

A militaristic mind-set implies a latent talent for military strategy, correct? Talent is a part of skill, and it is widely aknowledge that skill is a profficiency in something. If you are strategically minded, you have a profficiency with strategy, and are therefor strategically skilled (Circular reasoning. Egads.).
What you're not realizing is that you have learned something from these games. The first time you step out with a mage/wizard/blackmage/doomspeller/leet drood and start blasting away in a group, you find that the mob attacks you. Suddenly you think, "well gee, I need to not keep blasting." Congratulations. You've just gaind the abbility to learn a skill. Not Sun Tzu art of war skills perhaps, but it is still knowledge of this opens the door to experimentation in timing to see how you can still do a lot of damage without accruing much hate.

Yes, Etoh. Correct about what the mind-set implies...however (oh I love this part), this is not required in WoW. It takes no skill to play this game. Some have different...life skills (shall we say?) that make them a more formidable opponent. If you do not have them (these life skills) while playing exponentially more often than someone else who does...the hardcore gamer (the one who plays all the time) will still have better gear/higher pvp rank and so on. So...a lvl 60 without any skill at all and without any mind of what is going on can still defeat someone who has immense skill.

That is where my main argument lies.

EDIT: this lvl 60 plays all the time and has the best gear possible for his class...while the other char is lvl 60...but has things only he acquired himself.

[northernlights]

Ill be the first to tell you that if noone else did. In the current system, it takes NO skill to be top ranked in honor. All it takes is time. I dont care what previous arguments weve had in here about what skill is/isnt...but we both know that time doesnt equal skill.

You really don't sound like your having fun with this game, kid.

[toader]

You really don't sound like your having fun with this game, kid.Your right, adult, I hate this game. Every nite I cry because I cant be in a raid guild and show off my 1337 skillz vs Onyxia, MC and BWL.

[Etoh the Mighty]

Yes, Etoh. Correct about what the mind-set implies...however (oh I love this part), this is not required in WoW. It takes no skill to play this game. Some have different...life skills (shall we say?) that make them a more formidable opponent. If you do not have them (these life skills) while playing exponentially more often than someone else who does...the hardcore gamer (the one who plays all the time) will still have better gear/higher pvp rank and so on. So...a lvl 60 without any skill at all and without any mind of what is going on can still defeat someone who has immense skill.

That is where my main argument lies.

EDIT: this lvl 60 plays all the time and has the best gear possible for his class...while the other char is lvl 60...but has things only he acquired himself.

:happy65: Well said. I will concede that given enough time the proverbial "idiot" and "stupid-head" can definitely over take the intelligent casual gamer... Which actually pretty much describes my life. I'm good at these games. I just rarely play. :happy53: I will bow to you and say that playing wow doesn't require skill, but it's a definite plus. And that while playing without skill, you will eventually gain that skill.

Edit: this is reminding me of a creation debate. The theory of evolution is the leet hardcore zerger player that, given enough time, could come to the same results that an intelligent skilled designer could come to.

[toader]

and say that playing wow doesn't require skill, but it's a definite plus.Ah yes...thats something I should have brought up from the start. The REQUIREMENT for skill. Good point to whomever made it. Wow definatly requires no skill, but sure, a touch of experience and skill might help you not die a couple times. :happy34:

[DrunkCajun]

C'mon guys. Take it to PM if you're gonna drag personal conflicts into it. Posting it here will only get the thread locked and people in trouble.


Re: chess vs. WoW

Chess can take skill, yes. It doesn't have to. Once you've mastered the basics, you can easily pick up a book on strategy, read up on and apply it to someone who's never seen it before to beat the pants off of them. That's not skill, that's being clever. Skill is someone who can play the game naturally, see what you're doing with your defense/trap, and play their way out of it or around it without you catching on.

In WoW, the same sort of thing can apply.

You [I]can be skilled at playing WoW, sure. Me reading toader's talent specs, using them, and following his guidelines on how to use them word for word in combat, never branching out from it does not consist of me being skilled.

Me developing my own variations or style of play with some things that I learned from others may show skill, particularly if I'm a good enough player to truly stand out from every other player who's ever read a class guide before.

[Etoh the Mighty]

Cajun- But experience is still part of developing a skill. What you're describing is someone who came about the abbility through sheer talent, and someone who learned his way through it. Tell me something you're good at. Some skill you're really proud of having and I can tell you how that applies. Or if you want, I can use an example from myself.

Edit: Nevermind. Actually, I have to leave work and I just thought of an example. Ok, I cosplay. for those of you who don't know, cosplaying is competitive costuming. Now I know the mechanics of sewing and I'm fairly good but I'm a little shy (and I don't want to post my own picture here. :lol: ) so I'm not gonna use myself as an example, but I will show you two cosplayers:

http://www.cosplaylab.com/cosplayers/costumes/details.asp?costumeid=93724 FFXI Red Mage Artifact Armor

http://www.cosplaylab.com/cosplayers/costumes/details.asp?costumeid=70117 Some Yu-Gi-Oh character.

Now, can you tell which of the two is the better cosplayer? The top one, I'm sure. She learned how to sew (which for most people is VERY trial and error), learned how to make the armor bits, etc. She learned how to make costumes before making that specific costume. Now, she probably looked at a plethora of Red Mage costumes (and there are many. Just look it up on cosplaylab.com) learned what looked good, what didn't. Probably read some manuals on prop making for the various hard parts and the sword, and all that. She did research, but she also had hands on learning. He just went out and bought a shirt, and some toys from walmart.
She gained the skill, though, through experience. Maybe he's a really talented costumer? We frankly don't know. He's not tempered that with any form of learning it seems.

[DrunkCajun]

Cajun- But experience is still part of developing a skill. What you're describing is someone who came about the abbility through sheer talent, and someone who learned his way through it. Tell me something you're good at. Some skill you're really proud of having and I can tell you how that applies. Or if you want, I can use an example from myself.

The chess example is a good one I think.

I learned to play chess at the age of 4. I've played all my life, and by the time I was 12 I was taking on the local high school chess coach and beating him.

One day I met some people I couldn't beat. Instead of playing them over and over and getting destroyed, I checked a book out from the library (compare that, say to me finding a thread/guide on something here), read about the Center Counter game, and used it to beat the pants off of a few of them until they figured out how to beat it.

My beating them those few times wasn't skill, it was the fact that I was clever enough to go out and do some research on the side. If I had been skilled enough to beat them, I wouldn't have lost when they started figuring out ways around my defense, I would have adapted to beat them. Instead, I lost.

I don't see this as any different from, say, playing a Warlock and, say, having trouble with Rogues. As a Warlock, I might get consistently beaten by a Rogue, until I read that a better way to fight a Rogue than my usual DoTs is to kite them, CoS them, and spam ShadowBolts in conjunction with ShadowBurn to eat their life down quickly. Being able to do that doesn't make me a skilled player, it makes me smart for going out and doing research.

That's my view on it, anyway. "Skill" is a much more nebulous thing and can't really be applied too much to this game. There may be some places, as has been mentioned, where "skill" might save your hide when someone else would bite the dust, but I don't think it really has much to do with whether or not I successfully run Stratholme in a 5-man group. Skill on the part of all 5 players might make it faster and easier, but so will uber gear, reading strategies on how to survive it, and having all the time in the world to run it repeatedly and learn it.

[Amyss]

YES! I managed to make some people see my point! And all before 5pm! Now I can go home happy.

Good talking with you. I hope controversial things like this arise more often. This was definitely a more productive way of procrastinating than what I have been recently doing.

:bigclap:

[Etoh the Mighty]

YES! I managed to make some people see my point! And all before 5pm! Now I can go home happy.

Good talking with you. I hope controversial things like this arise more often. This was definitely a more productive way of procrastinating than what I have been recently doing.

:bigclap:

Ciao. I need to get going too. Also, I'm going to give too much information, and state that I have to pee.

[thejdawg2]

See...I do not understand what you mean by learning how to tank and timing your spells. I thought it was common knowledge *flashes back to first mmo* that if you do nothing but keep blasting...the target will hate you and try to kill you. Likewise, I thought it was obvious that a tanks job is to taunt the mobs and keep em off the players that are not built to be beaten on.

WoW is my first MMO.

I did not know anything about aggro generation or management. I didn't know how warriors kept mobs from attacking me instead of them the first time I went through RFC. I did not understand the basics of crowd control, or when to use them or the optimal targets to use them against.

I think that many people operate with the idea that most people have MMO experience. If someone were to pick up EQ2, I think that might be the case. But Blizzard has a sizable fanbase on it's own, and a lot of the people just picked it up because of the way it looked and because of the Blizzard reputation.

Me and 2 of my roommates had never played an MMO before. Does the fact that we picked up the tools necessary to play the game and make it to instances that require the most precise technique to complete (i.e. 5 manning all the end game instances besides UBRS/MC/Ony/BWL) mean that we have more "WoW skill" than someone who knew the basics of an MMO before and just transferred their previously acquired knowledge to this game?

Personally, I don't think it does.

[Kazune]

Hm...what I believe is:

The Laws of Equal Trade(the FMA ver.) applies here.

Those who spend more time for ingame goodies, sacrificing time outgame in the process...have gotten their ingame reward for that amount of time put in, but is techically screwed outgame(iRL)

Those who spend less time ingame, but more time outgame(with family, friends, for example)...Instead of receiving the "phat lewt" which consists of a few mb of data, would have gotten their just reward in another manner, for example, further development in relationships with close ones, happiness, and shared memories.

It is up to the individual to judge which aspect of this "plane" should they focus their life on.

[northernlights]

Hm...what I believe is:

The Laws of Equal Trade(the FMA ver.) applies here.

Those who spend more time for ingame goodies, sacrificing time outgame in the process...have gotten their ingame reward for that amount of time put in, but is techically screwed outgame(iRL)

Those who spend less time ingame, but more time outgame(with family, friends, for example)...Instead of receiving the "phat lewt" which consists of a few mb of data, would have gotten their just reward in another manner, for example, further development in relationships with close ones, happiness, and shared memories.

It is up to the individual to judge which aspect of this "plane" should they focus their life on.


Most evenings I raid with my guild while at a friends house. There are usually 5-10 people there on any given evening, its a pretty social atmosphere. Some play WoW, some don't.

Your 'WoW time' may cripple your interactions outside of the game, but thats personal to you (and probably some others). I sure as hell know I couldnt sit in a basement alone every night doing this, no freakin way.

[Kazune]

Most evenings I raid with my guild while at a friends house. There are usually 5-10 people there on any given evening, its a pretty social atmosphere. Some play WoW, some don't.

Your 'WoW time' may cripple your interactions outside of the game, but thats personal to you (and probably some others). I sure as hell know I couldnt sit in a basement alone every night doing this, no freakin way.

Precisely. Your circumstances makes it that way, and you must surely agree that with these "others" around, you would be spending at least SOME time on them, and less time(however little) focusing on WoW alone. (For example, someone talked to you, and you looked off the screen, if only for a second. During that second, a lvl 60 rogue appeared and laid the smack down on you. When you turned back, you are dead! If you had focused on gaming without distraction, you would had survived. During the time you would spend corpse searching, you may had received an epic drop off that bunny you would had killed, had you been alive.)

As compared to those who spends time truly focused on the game, you would find that they would had gotten "more"(ingame) than you, however little that "more" is. You would had been rewarded in another way. It maybe a line or two of memoriable conversation with your friends, it maybe a chance to notice that the stove is on fire, which otherwise you would had ignored and burned to death had you been truly focused on gaming.

All I am saying is that we are each alocated a different amount of time in our lifetime. It is up to us(perhaps not totally, but relatively most of it) to decide how we spend these times, and the reward that follows would be the result of Equal Trade. More game time more game loot, more RL time better RL rewards.

Of course, there is also the "Random Factor" in all things to consider, but even if Equal Trade may not directly give you a better outcome on the "random roll", it gives you more CHANCES(rolls on the dice) to arrive at a better outcome than what you may had received otherwise.

[toader]

After some deep contemplation and chicken wings, Ive decided I dont wanna stoop (anymore) to anyone elses level.

So, sorry to anyone I flamed in this thread. By anyone I mean northernlights since he's the only person I flamed.

Ill try and use politer terms next time I disagree with you. And by politer, I mean bigger, more confusing, and less inflammatory. :P

[Euro-Crash]

After some deep contemplation and chicken wings, Ive decided I dont wanna stoop (anymore) to anyone elses level.

So, sorry to anyone I flamed in this thread. By anyone I mean northernlights since he's the only person I flamed.

Ill try and use politer terms next time I disagree with you. And by politer, I mean bigger, more confusing, and less inflammatory. :P

Damn it, Toader! I am SO pissed off with you right now...Why can't you think of blue flowers and pink bunnies or count backwards from one-hundred thousand? :D

No love lost here, mate! You still "da homey".

[arkwar]

Ok.. In my opinion, it does take some amount of skill to play WoW. But not nearly as much as it takes to play any popular FPS. There are people who literally make their living playing FPS games, because they literally are the best at what they do. Any knucklehead can play 50 hours a week and start getting characters to level 60, and if they're nice enough to other players while they do it they will most likely be able to get into an endgame raid guild. While I do think there are players who exhibit above-average skill in the game, skill just isn't as much of a factor in WoW.

In any FPS (Counter-strike for example) most people just do not have what it takes to become professional gamers, including myself. Nobody pays to watch pickup basketball games in the local gym; why would they pay to see my under-par CS game?

My opinion is that a skill is something that can be learned that potentially gives a real-life advantage. Until I see people getting payed to play any MMORPG, it will be my opinion that no MMORPG takes an insane amount of skill to be good at.

And just in case you're wondering, my highest level character is 40 right now. Why? Certainly not because I'm not skilled enough; I just don't have the time to play more than 15 hours per week.

An FPS is more like a sport, whereas MMORPGs are more like school. Spend enough time in the books and you'll get good grades; however, some people are naturally talented at baseball, and no amount of practice will bring the average joe up to their level.

anyways... that came out a little longer than I meant for it to.

[Vorlin]

On the lighter side of skill, this kid's got us all beat!

http://www.leenks.com/media318.htm

I hope that was ok to link in...very short video of an 8 year old showing who's boss, hehe...worthwhile, I swear!

[Euro-Crash]

On the lighter side of skill, this kid's got us all beat!

http://www.leenks.com/media318.htm

I hope that was ok to link in...very short video of an 8 year old showing who's boss, hehe...worthwhile, I swear!

This is EFFING RAD!

[Kosmo]

.
Until I see people getting payed to play any MMORPG, it will be my opinion that no MMORPG takes an insane amount of skill to be good at.


A lot of people get payed to play WOW. Of course, not for their skill, but for their time.

Some people think that only in a FPS game you need skill, but a strategy game like WCIII-TFT is a very good example of a game that requires a lot of skill. Try to win against the gosu players and you will see why!
Skill is important in WOW like in everything else we do.
The only area in where we can see that is time. How fast and easy one is leveling is a matter of skill.
If you understand quests, play well your class, make good in-game friends and die less you level faster. This is about time played to reach a said level and not about the time you play in a week.
A player that is spending 10 houres a week in game can be more skilled that one that spends 50 and can level faster for each hour he is in game.

In my opinion the article was less about how much skill you need to play a MMORPG, but about how you can tell who is more skilled.
In other games like UT, WCIII and CS you have competitions with similar start conditions for competitors. Even if you play with a friend a LAN game you can compare your skill.
If you play online WC III you know the skill of a player by cheking his ladder status, but in WOW the level and equipment of a player is irrelevant to his skill. You cannot tell who is better between two level 60 players with devout set.

So, it's all about the criteria used for in-game prestige and this criteria is play time. :buddies:

[Eido]

I have noticed one difference between hard-core and casual gamers:

at 30+ hardcore gamers are asking "how do I feed my pet?" while casual gamers of similar level have written the macro to feed the pet, make it go attack a mob, then come back and make a cup of tea.

[Asteroide]

It seems that the predominant ways of using the word skill in everyday talk, does not feel fitting when talking about playing a computer game...
But,
when people take IQ tests they don't get the same results - one of the parameters causing this difference, is the time needed to get the correct result. Another way to say this: A large part of the test can be answered correctly by all, if time is not a factor.

This aspect plays a part in many areas where we accept the word 'skill' as applicable, and also, I believe, in WoW.

A completely different question is whether the skill of players is detectable in the amount and value of their gear, their rep or their level. As there is no timecounter telling others how long you played to get what you got, the answer is clearly no. So the author of the essay starting this whole discussion is justified in his annoyance over the reverence towards high-level players with good gear, because they might be skilled and they might not.

Another confusing element in this thread is the frequent demand that the word skill should only be applied to something that is difficult to gain access to, like playing guitar: if you don't know how, you do not play badly - you can't play at all.
This isn't true of most computer games, mainly because they are designed to be enjoyable by all who buy them, so the succesfull games rarely have a steep learning curve - but this in itself does not preclude a possible difference in skill between players!

We can all make love - but are we all skilled lovers? In my experience: no.

The only way I can think of to test the skill of two players, would be to let them play completely identical characters and fight each other. This would only test combat skills though

[Hydrated]

Most evenings I raid with my guild while at a friends house. There are usually 5-10 people there on any given evening, its a pretty social atmosphere. Some play WoW, some don't.

Your 'WoW time' may cripple your interactions outside of the game, but thats personal to you (and probably some others). I sure as hell know I couldnt sit in a basement alone every night doing this, no freakin way.

NL... I can relate to what you're saying here... there is a difference in playing alone in a basement or playing along with RL pals in a social environment.

My buddies and I used to do the social gameplay thing with UT. I worked for a software development firm that allowed us to use the computer labs for weekend UT gatherings that usually lasted all weekend. Everybody brought their PC's and we used the compnay's network infrastructure to set up our game. We played... drank a little beer... lived on pizza, tacos, and Mountain Dew... had a great time together. Some of the best times I ever had with friends, and yes... I guess it did revolve around a game... but it was much more than just a game.

I guess it was a computer geek's rave! LOL

So yeah... I'll admit that WoW could have a RL social aspect... but you have to admit that MOST players don't spend their game time along with RL buddies around.

(BTW... I really sucked at UT... but it was still fun!)

[Atredies]

Personally I believe that the statement "you don't have to be skilled to play WoW" is correct I don't agree that it then means that no-one in WoW has any skill or that people are unable to be skilful in-game.

A study was conducted on how to test skill in video games and it proved to be fairly easy to measure. You take x number of people give them game Y that they have never played before set a time limit and after that time determine who has "advanced" the most in whatever way the game expects.

This can be applied to WoW take a group of people give them say 5 hours of playing and see who has advanced the most, this is the most accurate measure of the ethereal quality we label skill as it reduces such factors as luck etc to a non-contributing factor.

At the end of the day though I see WoW and any other game such as UT, (which I loved and used to play consistently), to be just entertainment and like water off a ducks back I really can't be bothered if some lame kid wants to flaunt their uber gear or high level :)

Cheers,
Atredies

[Salavik]

The basic gameplay of WoW does not require a great amount of skill, IMO, especially those many drop-rate quests to find singing crystals or spider legs.

That said, the other day on Silver Hand the Alliance put together a spectacular raid on Tarren Mill and us Hordies came in from all over to put up a struggling defence. I only stuck around for three waves, which we all repelled back to Southshore, but apparently they took the town a couple of waves later.

The tactics required to organise the defence required skill and knowledge, the former being the considered application of the latter. Do we try to draw them in to enlist help from the town guards, try to wrap around the town and flank, or force a charge and wedge their forces? These are all decisions that require a surveying of the field, knowledge of yourself and your enemy, and a firm will to execute your decision without floundering. In my opinion, there is where some skill in WoW lies.

[Avenstar]

I have noticed one difference between hard-core and casual gamers:

at 30+ hardcore gamers are asking "how do I feed my pet?" while casual gamers of similar level have written the macro to feed the pet, make it go attack a mob, then come back and make a cup of tea.

I completely agree with this. You group with mid level rogues with duel fiery enchants in full bought boe blue gear that haven't learned poisons, have a lockpicking skill of 25, think they can sap anything, don't even know what feint is, and wonder why they keep pulling aggro and dieing. But they are quick to defend their actions by spouting out each group member's damage.

[Krollin]

Oh yeah. I wonder if it was purposeful or accidental that he didn't mention that fatal1ty has no job and money from gaming tournaments provides his income. He plays all day to insure he is the best, much as the people he is criticizing.
I am sure someone has already pointed this out but Fatal1ty does have a job, he is a professional Video Games Player.
There was an article linked from the main website about this guy.

[Etoh the Mighty]

If you are drawing money from a source other than charity or welfare, you have a job. Krollin's right. He's a professional gamer. Man I want that job.

[toader]

If you are drawing money from a source other than charity or welfare, you have a job.But man....its a long walk down to the welfare office. Thats work right?

[Etoh the Mighty]

I know it take effort to breed all those children for that fat paycheck, but seriously toader, get a job. :p

(P.S. that's not a jab at welfare in general, but I have known people that had lots of kids for a bigger welfare check)

[Silverleaf]

The beleive the point of this all is that while yes there are some skill that can be applied into WoW. One is not required to have skill in WoW to beat it. so to speak.

[northernlights]

The beleive the point of this all is that while yes there are some skill that can be applied into WoW. One is not required to have skill in WoW to beat it. so to speak.


Beat it???????

(extra question marks added as minimum post is 10 characters)

[toader]

Beat it???????

(extra question marks added as minimum post is 10 characters)You know....beat Van Cleef of course.

[Vorlin]

I completely agree with this. You group with mid level rogues with duel fiery enchants in full bought boe blue gear that haven't learned poisons, have a lockpicking skill of 25, think they can sap anything, don't even know what feint is, and wonder why they keep pulling aggro and dieing. But they are quick to defend their actions by spouting out each group member's damage.

I'd say that's a different group of gamers. The "hardcore" part comes in when you love to play video games, whether it's one or twenty. Myself, I have about 7 games installed right now and I bounce around all of them, including WOW. In this respect, I'd consider myself pretty hardcore, playing 6 hours a day or so and most of the weekend nights. To the teenie bopper who's being described above, they're not hardcore in any sense, IMHO. No, they just have no job, no shown education (see l337 speak, abbreviated typing (u for you, 4 for for, ur for you're, etc)), using mommie and daddy's pc on mommie and daddy's cable internet or dsl, and have bed curfews at 22:00. That's more like the person who's less apt to know what the word "macro" even means, much less how to write one in a game as complex as WOW. Don't even mention the word Lua to them..they'll think you said Kahlua.

[Jazbo]

Doesnt matter in my opinion, I havent even gotten the game yet. I know however from gaming experience that the casual gamer is more fun to play with and chat with then the hardcore gamer. You can also role play with the casual gamer hence enhancing the experience then being hungry for items and levels constantly. Its the difference between playing to win and playing for fun -- I prefer the latter.

[northernlights]

Doesnt matter in my opinion, I havent even gotten the game yet. I know however from gaming experience that the casual gamer is more fun to play with and chat with then the hardcore gamer. You can also role play with the casual gamer hence inhancing the experience then being hungry for items and levels constantly. Its the difference between playing to win and playing for fun -- I prefer the latter.

I'm not interested in playing with players that dump other players into categories based on how 'hardcore' they think they are. That kind of uninformed generalization is what makes this kind of game 'not fun' for both the casual and serious gamer.

[Euro-Crash]

Doesnt matter in my opinion, I havent even gotten the game yet. I know however from gaming experience that the casual gamer is more fun to play with and chat with then the hardcore gamer. You can also role play with the casual gamer hence inhancing the experience then being hungry for items and levels constantly. Its the difference between playing to win and playing for fun -- I prefer the latter.

This a broad generalization...if you reworded your statement it would have more credence.

[Avenstar]

I'd say that's a different group of gamers. The "hardcore" part comes in when you love to play video games, whether it's one or twenty. Myself, I have about 7 games installed right now and I bounce around all of them, including WOW. In this respect, I'd consider myself pretty hardcore, playing 6 hours a day or so and most of the weekend nights. To the teenie bopper who's being described above, they're not hardcore in any sense, IMHO. No, they just have no job, no shown education (see l337 speak, abbreviated typing (u for you, 4 for for, ur for you're, etc)), using mommie and daddy's pc on mommie and daddy's cable internet or dsl, and have bed curfews at 22:00. That's more like the person who's less apt to know what the word "macro" even means, much less how to write one in a game as complex as WOW. Don't even mention the word Lua to them..they'll think you said Kahlua.

Ok, I think the term hard-core is being attributed to too many different characteristics. Hardcore vs. casual gamer outside of WoW refers to your love of gaming and what percentage of your free time you spend doing it. Someone who uses their only 8 hours of total free time a week gaming is just as hardcore as someone who uses 40 hours, regardless of how they see themselves. Hardcore gamers follow their favorite game lines for the latest news, they are aware of the latest hardware/systems available, they can even spout a few release dates. Casual players could play as much as hardcore gamers, but they don't take it near as seriously. It's very on/off for them. They don't follow the news, they don't follow the development, they don't participate in forums. They could go weeks without firing up a game, then play for 2 weeks straight. That is how I see casual vs. hardcore gamers. I would wager most people here are hardcore gamers, not because of time investment, but because of their love of gaming. I'd imagine everyone here is a hardcore gamer.

[Jazbo]

Let me rephrase (I really am having touble putting my thoughts in order today!):
I meant to put it as there are the 'hardcore' gamers, these quote gamers play and do just about nothing else. They are dead serious about the game, typically the people who are 'anti-n00b' and stuff like that. They always want the best, they don't care for creativity, just whatever is the best items they want, they want the highest level fastest they can get it and doing everything they can like it was a damn sport.

The 'casual' gamer is one who will take his time, have other interests and not only spam for items and questing. Typically not having all of the best stuff and not the highest level but generally lax about the game.

There are exceptions to every rule, this isn't really a rule but I am saying that there is a distinct difference between the two, there is no denying that. I know many people who like to play games only to be the best while I know people who also play to transport them to another realm -- even in RTS'. This leads to my thesis which was "It doesn't matter." Because no matter what you do in a game, as long as you have fun playing it thats good for you, to enhance the experience (especially for an MMORPG) stick to whoever you like more -- Mr. Terminator get this done on to the next or Bob the Dungeons and Dragons DM who likes to see things as the world and not the statistics.

--->However not everyone is lumped into these categories hence making the thread completely irrelevant. There really is no point to be made in the long run, gamers are gamers, some more dilligent then others and some more serious.

[rplusplus]

I consider myself a career casual gamer. I have played video games on console and PC for 30 years and while I get the jitters at 4:45 when I am at work thinking of hitting an instance with my guild or grinding out some elementals so I can pay for some skills or equipment.

My friends who are in my guild I would consider all Casual Gamers as they are fun to play with and even though some can recite chapter and verse all the skills and there uses from all 8 char types they also know that this is just a game and a small part of thier life.

I like the game for the sheer fact that it helps make the evenings more enjoyable when I am not at home with my family which is too often due to my job.

R++

[Euro-Crash]

Let me rephrase (I really am having touble putting my thoughts in order today!):
I meant to put it as there are the 'hardcore' gamers, these quote gamers play and do just about nothing else. They are dead serious about the game, typically the people who are 'anti-n00b' and stuff like that. They always want the best, they don't care for creativity, just whatever is the best items they want, they want the highest level fastest they can get it and doing everything they can like it was a damn sport.

The 'casual' gamer is one who will take his time, have other interests and not only spam for items and questing. Typically not having all of the best stuff and not the highest level but generally lax about the game.

There are exceptions to every rule, this isn't really a rule but I am saying that there is a distinct difference between the two, there is no denying that. I know many people who like to play games only to be the best while I know people who also play to transport them to another realm -- even in RTS'. This leads to my thesis which was "It doesn't matter." Because no matter what you do in a game, as long as you have fun playing it thats good for you, to enhance the experience (especially for an MMORPG) stick to whoever you like more -- Mr. Terminator get this done on to the next or Bob the Dungeons and Dragons DM who likes to see things as the world and not the statistics.

--->However not everyone is lumped into these categories hence making the thread completely irrelevant. There really is no point to be made in the long run, gamers are gamers, some more dilligent then others and some more serious.

Nicely worded....

[Nimmrod]

Might it not be of value for Blizzard (and other MMORPG's) to offer a lower cost subscription for casual gamers who would then play on "casual" servers. Those accounts would limit a person to 15 (or so) hours of play per week? And those "casual" servers might have some other tweaks to the dynamics aimed at the casual player...

Yeah, that might not be a bad idea. I try to play WOW every afternoon when I get home for an hour or two, so I guess I should be considered a casual(ty) with only about 10 hours or less a week.
The plus side to that is I still get to go to church, I still make my wife happy by spending my weekends with her and helping her study for college throughout the week, and I have a full time job.
It would make sense for the scale to raise a bit for the casual gamer, but when I do the math and say I'm paying about 0.50 cents per day (for a total of $15 a month), that's really not too bad. Cheaper is always better, though...

[Hydrated]

We can all make love - but are we all skilled lovers? In my experience: no.

Is that with or without a partner?

[Yenkin]

Casual vs Hardcore, is a issues that will not go away nor will it ever be solved. The best Blizzard or any other of the Online games can hope for is to provide a enviroment that tries to ensure the game is fun. I can honestly say in EQ I was a hard core player and could be found playing eq at least 40 hours per week if not more. Grinding and raiding endlessly in the hopes of winning the next uber item or grinding out another AA point. Generally Fun and EQ were not ever used in the same sentence.

WoW has a much more casual feel to the game. It would be a great pity for the good programmers and designers to start catering only to those who are level 60 and beyond. In My opinion whats the rush to get there? I understand there is a need for some players to be the most powerful whatever class in the game having all the toys. But who really cares?

Play the game, have fun, whether you are a 10 hour per week player or a 40 hour a week player. The only difference is the casual gamer just takes a bit longer to get there.

[northernlights]

Casual vs Hardcore, is a issues that will not go away nor will it ever be solved. The best Blizzard or any other of the Online games can hope for is to provide a enviroment that tries to ensure the game is fun. I can honestly say in EQ I was a hard core player and could be found playing eq at least 40 hours per week if not more. Grinding and raiding endlessly in the hopes of winning the next uber item or grinding out another AA point. Generally Fun and EQ were not ever used in the same sentence.

WoW has a much more casual feel to the game. It would be a great pity for the good programmers and designers to start catering only to those who are level 60 and beyond. In My opinion whats the rush to get there? I understand there is a need for some players to be the most powerful whatever class in the game having all the toys. But who really cares?

Play the game, have fun, whether you are a 10 hour per week player or a 40 hour a week player. The only difference is the casual gamer just takes a bit longer to get there.


Well put. It would be nice to see this thread end for good on that note.