Is Bandaging and what not in duels fair?

[Zann the Defender]

This is just a quick poll.

Scenario: I dueled a mage(level 60) on my level 58 rogue. I ambushed him, he blinks, I vanish and cheap shot him. After that, he novas, sheeps, and bandages. Now, he does the usual, Frostbolt, and continue. I get him down over half, and he uses a potion. I still havn't used any health altering effects. I continue to fight. He beats me, I have low health, he has 1/5 th health.

Then he said "Did you really expect to beat a mage with an some epics?". I reply "Nothing can stop me from trying, atleast you had to pot and Bandage.". He laughs, calls me a noob. Debate continues. He keep calling me a Noob for A) Not being 60 on tht server, B) Not having any Epics, and C) Not having an enchant on my newly gotten Sacred Charge (Just ran UBRS before dueling him).

Now, Mage says he is from an Elite Guild, the *best* guild on the server, I refute it by telling him Best is an opinion, and he laughs at me again, calling me a noob.

Anyways, the point is, is using Health Altering Effects, aside from class abillities to heal (Priest, Paladins, Shammies, etc) fair in duels?

[Gaza0469]

I always ask at the start, make sure its an "anything goes duel" or an "Equipment only duel"

Technically in duels its bad manners to use pots / bandages / trinkets.

Most players dont know this, so before a fight I would just check on the rules, or tell them that you play by such and such rule just to make it fair.

It is a tough call - for example lets say a Warrior (blacksmith/mining) versus a warrior (herbalism/alchemy)

Ok so lets look at this scenario the blacksmith says no pots then is it fair that the warrior with blacksmithing can use the epic armor that he made, yet the warrior who is an alchemist cant use the pots that he makes?

So dueling is definately not clear cut and its not entirely fair with alot of grey areas depending on what rules are used.

The other thing to look at as well is that a duel doesnt get you any reputation or honor points so if some guy wants to waste some pots on a duel is there really that much harm done?

[Snugglz]

This is just a quick poll.

Scenario: I dueled a mage(level 60) on my level 58 rogue. I ambushed him, he blinks, I vanish and cheap shot him. After that, he novas, sheeps, and bandages. Now, he does the usual, Frostbolt, and continue. I get him down over half, and he uses a potion. I still havn't used any health altering effects. I continue to fight. He beats me, I have low health, he has 1/5 th health.

Then he said "Did you really expect to beat a mage with an some epics?". I reply "Nothing can stop me from trying, atleast you had to pot and Bandage.". He laughs, calls me a noob. Debate continues. He keep calling me a Noob for A) Not being 60 on tht server, B) Not having any Epics, and C) Not having an enchant on my newly gotten Sacred Charge (Just ran UBRS before dueling him).

Now, Mage says he is from an Elite Guild, the *best* guild on the server, I refute it by telling him Best is an opinion, and he laughs at me again, calling me a noob.

Anyways, the point is, is using Health Altering Effects, aside from class abillities to heal (Priest, Paladins, Shammies, etc) fair in duels?

First off you need to add a "Bandaging is ok pot is not" option for your poll. I voted yes because of bandaging and trinkets.

This is a very touchy topic imo.

My take: I think bandaging is ok in duels because you can "mess it up" by hitting them. Of course some classes have an advantage like sheeping and stunlocking but that's ok. Using health/mana pots = big no no for me. I don't know why but I just think instant 1,000 health isn't that fair. I don't think it's ok to use alchemy pots that increase your strength etc either but that one I let it pass sometimes unless I lose horribly. If I lose horribly I ask for a rematch with no pots. Item/trinkets that heal you are ok.

Of course in regular pvp though...use every single potion you have :P

[Blackmoore]

I allow Bandages. It takes skill and timing to use bandages. Healing and Mana are a big no no.

and Zann..post once more.

[HerioMortis]

I have seen a lot of tricks in a duel plus a lot of things that would raise the "what if factor."

Duels are important to me, they are sign for me how well my character is doing and how well I am doing in the essence of PvP. That being said my guy beat pretty much anyone without epics or otherwise. Mages, warlocks, warriosr doesn't matter I tend to win against most.

But a few duels would raise the question, "Is that fair...or would you win IF you didn't use ..."

IE a person using a pot. I feel that this is entirely not a "fair" situation. Since potions are the factor of that not everyone has one and it nots a fair situation.

This could be said about bandages, however everyone can bandage. Not everyone has a potion. Plus bandaging takes time and can be interrupted. A potion is usually instant 700plus HP (depending on potion).

So as the saying goes Bandages okay Pots are a no. In the instance of PvP I feel anything goes. Whatever you wanna use. Use it.

But also what about the HUGE cooldown class skills. I have seen people sink low enough to use them, and then refute by saying "Its a class skill thus you can't complain"

As example I was 58 at the time on my Tauren Fury Warrior, and I dueled a level 60 paladin. Had him on the ropes the whole time, dropped him down he bubbled and healed dropped him back down. When he did something I wouldn't expect someone in a duel to do. He stunned me, since his was LOM I figured one heal maybe but instead he drops Hands on himself and full heals. I was probably 1/4th at the time and after running a paladin down twice I wasn't able to go for the third time. A friend watching said "wow lost to a paladin huh" I felt that was someone a wrong statement since, 1 that skill yes is a class skill but for the next HOUR he is unable to do it again. So were we to duel again he would lose plus while adventuring that skill is not open. Is it worth it to win a duel once? For the sake of arguement had I used, say recklessness on him the duel would have been done in those 15 secs. Healing, Bubble or Hands. The DPS I do while recklessness is quite insane.

I just feel that those types of class skills with more than a 5min cooldown should not be permitted in duels. Just an opinion, since you can argue it is a class skill. But not one where you can wait on to duel again to see if it made the difference.

Heriomortis 59 Tauren Fury Warrior (Hand of The Forsaken)
Feathermoon

[Gaza0469]

I have seen a lot of tricks in a duel plus a lot of things that would raise the "what if factor."

Duels are important to me, they are sign for me how well my character is doing and how well I am doing in the essence of PvP. That being said my guy beat pretty much anyone without epics or otherwise. Mages, warlocks, warriosr doesn't matter I tend to win against most.

But a few duels would raise the question, "Is that fair...or would you win IF you didn't use ..."

IE a person using a pot. I feel that this is entirely not a "fair" situation. Since potions are the factor of that not everyone has one and it nots a fair situation.

This could be said about bandages, however everyone can bandage. Not everyone has a potion. Plus bandaging takes time and can be interrupted. A potion is usually instant 700plus HP (depending on potion).

So as the saying goes Bandages okay Pots are a no. In the instance of PvP I feel anything goes. Whatever you wanna use. Use it.

But also what about the HUGE cooldown class skills. I have seen people sink low enough to use them, and then refute by saying "Its a class skill thus you can't complain"

As example I was 58 at the time on my Tauren Fury Warrior, and I dueled a level 60 paladin. Had him on the ropes the whole time, dropped him down he bubbled and healed dropped him back down. When he did something I wouldn't expect someone in a duel to do. He stunned me, since his was LOM I figured one heal maybe but instead he drops Hands on himself and full heals. I was probably 1/4th at the time and after running a paladin down twice I wasn't able to go for the third time. A friend watching said "wow lost to a paladin huh" I felt that was someone a wrong statement since, 1 that skill yes is a class skill but for the next HOUR he is unable to do it again. So were we to duel again he would lose plus while adventuring that skill is not open. Is it worth it to win a duel once? For the sake of arguement had I used, say recklessness on him the duel would have been done in those 15 secs. Healing, Bubble or Hands. The DPS I do while recklessness is quite insane.

I just feel that those types of class skills with more than a 5min cooldown should not be permitted in duels. Just an opinion, since you can argue it is a class skill. But not one where you can wait on to duel again to see if it made the difference.

Heriomortis 59 Tauren Fury Warrior (Hand of The Forsaken)
Feathermoon



Dont forget paper scissors rocks

warriors are not supposed to be able to beat Paladins, fact.

Same as Priests arent supposed to be able to beat Shamens, etc.

or a mage shouldnt be able to beat a priest.

There are some classes where you will find it easy to beat, some where it is impossible to win and some where its 50/50 (assuming you both have the same level of skill and a similar value gear setup.)

[Zann the Defender]

I allow Bandages. It takes skill and timing to use bandages. Healing and Mana are a big no no.

and Zann..post once more.
Done and Done.

Anyone can bandage, true. Even if I have the most powerful bandages at my side, I believe it is a a sign of Cowardice to pull off these tricks. Never will you see me blind and bandage, nor will you see me pot in duels. PvE, however, it is not about honor. However, I don;t se why anyone would do that in PvE, outside of instances that is.

The only way you can hope to improve yourself against a class is to not bandage, but try our very best, see what works, and take note of it.

The Rock Paper Scissors class thing is correct. However, it is sad when a warrior has to Intimidaiting shout a rogue and bandage. I am really starting to hate people and their bandage dependancy.

[Torik]

A good way to equalize out special class abilities is to do a best-of-three or best-of-five duel. This seriously reduces the impact of 1 hour or 30 min abilities and means that you will need to use a variety of skills and tactic to win.

Duels are 'artificial' PvP. They only resemble true PvP. As such if you want to use duels to test your PvP skills you need to make the situation resemble open PvP.

[Baboon]

I would like a third option, something like 'I don't care'. It's just a duel, it's not PvP, talk about the rules or do whatever you want. And you should put that mage on your ignore list ;)

[bwirum]

My opinion is that this is not Diablo 2. You can't just chug potions like there's no tomorrow. Everything has a cooldown. Furthermore, everything is made by a profession, by a player, you can't just go to a vendor and buy them.

It's much like gaza said, if an alchemist can't use his potions, shouldn't an engineer be allowed to use his trinkets, goggles and whatnot? Shouldn't a blacksmith be allowed to use his great armor or sword that he made?

Duels in WoW is not just about there and then, it's also about preparation. Use whatever means you can to get the win.

Of course, as with everything, set the rules beforehand and you're all good.

[ChaosTree]

Well here is what I think, and yes I know it isn't quite rational but it's my subjective ideas.

Bandage (+)
Healing/Mana pots (-)
+ Stat pots (+)
Effect pots (like free action potion) (-)
Trinkets (+)
Medium cooldown abilities (<10min) (+)
Long cooldown abilities (>20min) (-)
Effect engineering items (like bombs) (-)

My 2 copper

[Baboon]

Well here is what I think, and yes I know it isn't quite rational but it's my subjective ideas.

Bandage (+)
Healing/Mana pots (-)
+ Stat pots (+)
Effect pots (like free action potion) (-)
Trinkets (+)
Medium cooldown abilities (<10min) (+)
Long cooldown abilities (>20min) (-)
Effect engineering items (like bombs) (-)

My 2 copper

I'd say it's a waste of your expensive bomb to throw it in a duel, I save them for real 1on1 PvP to save my ass.

[SunnyDance]

IE a person using a pot. I feel that this is entirely not a "fair" situation. Since potions are the factor of that not everyone has one and it nots a fair situation.

This could be said about bandages, however everyone can bandage. Not everyone has a potion. Plus bandaging takes time and can be interrupted. A potion is usually instant 700plus HP (depending on potion).
Hehe I really do not get this part. Everyone can have potions, everyone can have a bandage, everyone can hava a scroll which increases stamina or whatever, everyone could have a nice piece of cheese increasing your stamina etc etc.
Maybe you mean not everybody is a herbalist.. well not everybody has the frist aid skill either.. yes they can, but do not have it :)

Anyway I voted yes it is fair. It requires skill to use bandages.. potions do not require skill...
Talking about cooldowns.. hmm waht about my Innervate am I allowed to use it? waht about my instant heal.. :) and those questions go for all classes.. so 2 out of 3 is a good option. Then again what gives more satisfaction beating a mage using potions :)

Someone wrote:
warriors are not supposed to be able to beat Paladins, fact.

Same as Priests arent supposed to be able to beat Shamens, etc.

or a mage shouldnt be able to beat a priest.

Hmm that is a bit short sighted Imo.. It all depends on skill, timing etc No class is supposed to always win from another class.

[bud]

huh! i didnt know people cared so much about duels!

[moopy]

Ok so lets look at this scenario the blacksmith says no pots then is it fair that the warrior with blacksmithing can use the epic armor that he made, yet the warrior who is an alchemist cant use the pots that he makes?

Ahh, this was the exact point that I was going to make. A lot of people try to duel my priest, because they see the prospect of an easy win, but hell, an alchemist priest is quite likely to use invuln poition/oil of immolation etc. If the armour/weaponsmiths are prepared to fight nekkid/unarmed, there's no debate.

Of course, I have no sympathy for people who pick on my poor puny defenseless cleric, she has the right to use any and all sneaky tricks at her disposal to protect her from the nasty warriors :)

(It also helps if I remember not to buff people with fort/shadow prot before the duel, doh!)

[eXeel]

Potions are a part of an alchemists repetoir. Just like any blacksmith, leatherworker or enchanter can make use of their gear and enchants in combat.
Unless the mage was not an alchemist, that is all fine. You dont see smiths and LWers strip out of the gear they created themselves, do you?

Bandages. First Aid is available to all chars. He decided to go with it. So could you. Instead you got more money from selling the cloth at AH or spending it on something else, which gave you another advantage. He used his on First Aid, which he should also be in the right to use...

You can always decide before battle what is allowed. But if nothing is said, people can use what they create, of course. If you lose a duel because of that and that makes you mad, you should simply have asked if we could have a duel free of these things before start.
You know that now, for the next duel. No more reason to debate :) He did nothing wrong, except for the noob part. But you shouldn't have approached him and said it was wrong to use his professions, that is the point of them.

[Borhen]

Use whatever means necessary to win. If you pot, bandage, use a trinket, it's all good... the other player can do the same thing, there's cooldowns on those items for a reason.

[Aqqat]

I'm a casual player who rarely can find more than an hour or hour and a half to play at a time. Therefore I can almost never run instances so I don't have any elite equipment. So when ever I duel I think the other party should equip themselves with only green items so that it is fair. Blues and purples are definitely cheating. :whistle:

[Zann the Defender]

It's much like gaza said, if an alchemist can't use his potions, shouldn't an engineer be allowed to use his trinkets, goggles and whatnot?

I keep my Goggles and trinkets to PvE. The only time I use any engineering effects is when I use Cat's Eye Ultra when I know it is ok with the druid/rogue I duel.

A duel, in my opinion, is a way to scale your character with others, see how far in PvP you progress, your abillity to fight another class. While I don't like the "use whatever it takes to win" deal, I do sort of feel proud that they have to bandage and what not to win.

And I save my bandages for PvE. Either that, or I give the runecloth to my friend, he's a dwarf trying to get a Mechanical Strider. :thumbsup:

[DrunkCajun]

Man, considering that the Horde on my server whine when Alliance players use a Free Action Potion in Warsong Gulch, you'd think that we should all run out and PvP naked.

Dueling to me is interesting, though not something I take very seriously. I see no reason to waste a potion on it. Bandage? Maybe.

At any rate, if you want to test your PvP skills, throw down with someone from the other faction and fight to the death, no holds barred. No sense in pulling your punches wearing padded gloves.

[moopy]

A duel, in my opinion, is a way to scale your character with others, see how far in PvP you progress, your abillity to fight another class. While I don't like the "use whatever it takes to win" deal, I do sort of feel proud that they have to bandage and what not to win.

"There are distractions in the field!" etc etc

I am still unsure how accurate a measure this is, anyway, because when you're PvPing, you will be using all the high-end gear you have, trinkets, potions, bandages and whatnot.

Of course, if it's two people duelling, they can decide whatever rules they like. However, when a hunter has been following me around for ten minutes doing /chicken because I won't duel him with my poor priest, and I finally crack, and beat him in seconds flat.. well, the *****ing tends to come from people who lost, you know? If it bothered him that much, he could have tried something other than hurling abuse and chickening, like trying to communicate in an adult manner and laying down terms and conditions.

I've even had one of these duel-happy hunters insist that I shouldn't heal myself. When I asked, by the same token, why he used his pet, I got an interestingly mis-spelled torrent of abuse before he stormed off.. :)

So yes, duel however you like, but if you have special rules and conditions, best agree on them first rather than crying later, eh?

[Zann the Defender]

"There are distractions in the field!" etc etc

I am still unsure how accurate a measure this is, anyway, because when you're PvPing, you will be using all the high-end gear you have, trinkets, potions, bandages and whatnot.

Of course, if it's two people duelling, they can decide whatever rules they like. However, when a hunter has been following me around for ten minutes doing /chicken because I won't duel him with my poor priest, and I finally crack, and beat him in seconds flat.. well, the *****ing tends to come from people who lost, you know? If it bothered him that much, he could have tried something other than hurling abuse and chickening, like trying to communicate in an adult manner and laying down terms and conditions.

I've even had one of these duel-happy hunters insist that I shouldn't heal myself. When I asked, by the same token, why he used his pet, I got an interestingly mis-spelled torrent of abuse before he stormed off.. :)

So yes, duel however you like, but if you have special rules and conditions, best agree on them first rather than crying later, eh?

If some one doesn't want to duel, people need to respect that. In my expirience, many duels it is very rude (or cheating) to pot mid battle. I grew acustom to the rules, and then bandaging became a big thing. Point is that people are starting to depend on potions and bandaging in duels so they don't lose. My 2 copper is that this can be concieved as cheating, as anyone can pot, and anyone can bandage.

Some bandages you are not able to stop, take example of the mage I described. He sheeped me, bandaged (He didn't even touch me, so polymorph effect did nothing but stall me), and continued to fight. Potted later. Then bragged about it. I used 0 potions and 0 bandages. I had some runecloth bandages I like to use out of duels (stopped for a bit now that we had that 2% food).

[Caldrak]

Just a quick comment. I've read a few times throughout this thread that people say that they consider a duel to be a good test of their PVP skills and where they are. If this is the general consensus shouldn't it be a no holds barred event? Why give yourself a false sense of reality because when you're facing that Horde/Alliance player in the eyes, I highly doubt either of you will take the time to hand signal or emote out the rules before you slit the others throat.

I say use whatever means are at your disposal. I'd prefer to know about all cheap tricks in advance so that i counter them and or make use of them in the future.

[thejdawg2]

Bandages yes.
Potions no.
Trinkets yes.
Timered abilities yes.

[Eiger]

I've never understood why people get so upset when people use healing items in duels. Personally, I'd never waste a pot on a duel. I only use (expensive for a non alchemist) pots to keep from dying. Can't die in a duel...

But all else aside, I'm for duels without rules. I think all strats and methods at your disposal should be fair game. Any rule is artificially imposed - and most likely benefits one class over another. Any arguments run into gray areas - such as why not just ban all healing vs. "priests get to use healing because its part of their class" argument. Whatever, who cares. Simplify, simplify.

[Falchan]

no pots...
no bandage...
no trinket...
no poly...
no mind control...
no swords...
no foot armor...

come on...who cares. It's a game. if somone wants to blow a pot in a meaningless duel, go for it...more market for me in the AH. Duel your little heart out. Use your skills...that's what dueling is about. Timing the drink of a potion or a bandage or a trinket, etc, all takes a skill. If you have to means at your disposal, use it. Give 100%. Expect 100%. Period.

[toader]

As Ive said in all these other threads, IMO, everything is allowed.

This isnt a fast action game, everythings on timers, there is balance among the timed things. Being prepared is part of being a good dueler and PvP'er. If that means you wanna spend gold on pots, bandages and professions like engineering....great, be prepared and kick butt.

Just because some of your dont wanna waste money/timers on things for duels doesnt mean that you should try and stop others who chose to do so.



Just remember though...the day shard management is easier for warlocks is the day you all get totally owned by warlocks in duels. ;)

[HerioMortis]

Dont forget paper scissors rocks

warriors are not supposed to be able to beat Paladins, fact.

Same as Priests arent supposed to be able to beat Shamens, etc.

or a mage shouldnt be able to beat a priest.

There are some classes where you will find it easy to beat, some where it is impossible to win and some where its 50/50 (assuming you both have the same level of skill and a similar value gear setup.)


I have to somewhat disagree with this. I mean the fact of the matter is in duels I can beat paladins 100% of the time if I am equal level at least and assumeable equal gear. I am fury so its a little tougher for me than it would be for a Arms MS warrior. Even a protection warrior should be able to with the conc shot and silence on shieldbash and stun/revenge.

But thats just my opinion to that statement...as far as my original comments go I hold true to them. To clarify a tiny bit, when I said not everyone has potions I meant... Okay while soloing I get the occassional ganking alliance or just a jerk who tries to train me to kill me for fun. I use potions then, or in raids or other such times and things. I am armorsmith/mining I can't make potions can't gather and I see no need for me to have to spend 5g on my server to buy potions that would even make a difference in a fight. My point being I don't always have potions in fact most of the time I don't have any potions or scrolls to enhance myself. This is just meant to clarify my statement earlier, not repeat it.

In Duels:

Potions - no
Bandages - no
Enhance items - no (I have a strong inner debate on the sharpening stones/rogue weapon poisons)
Trinkets - yes
Racial Abilities - Yes
Class Abilities under 10mins - Yes
Class Abilities over 20mins - No
Engineer - I hate it...and its too hard to debate...for the fact to say an alchemist can't use potions...so an engineer can't use a deathray...thats harsh no matter how you answer it. If no well thats whats it built for battles...and if yes hypocritical to the potion statement...I have to say - No

However in PVP

Anything goes. Class skills, healing, bandages, racials, trinkets, heck bout the only thing I find dishonorable in PvP is being teamed on. I found it hilarious when a Druid/Warlock partnering team saw me flagged. Druid didn't try and gank but poked me and then signaled he wanted to fight...I acknowledge it and fought him and kill him easily. I was then ganked by a aim shot in the back by some farming 60 hunter. I revived druid revive we both go full and went at it again I killed the druid to only be shot in the back again by the same NE hunter.

Finally we both revive unknown to me the warlock had done SS to the druid we fought a final time. I killed him or so I thought! He revived and defeated me...I revived and had a good laugh about it. Was clever smart and it was technically teaming on me. Kudos to that druid.

Heriomortis 59 Tauren Fury Warrior (Hand of The Forsaken)
Feathermoon

[raul_robot]

Just a quick comment. I've read a few times throughout this thread that people say that they consider a duel to be a good test of their PVP skills and where they are. If this is the general consensus shouldn't it be a no holds barred event? Why give yourself a false sense of reality because when you're facing that Horde/Alliance player in the eyes, I highly doubt either of you will take the time to hand signal or emote out the rules before you slit the others throat.

I say use whatever means are at your disposal. I'd prefer to know about all cheap tricks in advance so that i counter them and or make use of them in the future.

Very good point.
Personally, I will blind and bandage in a duel, mainly when dueling healing classes. It's to see who will win, period. If a pally can shield and heal, you better believe I'm going to blind and heal. I don't use pots, but honestly, I don't see a problem with it if they took the time or resources to get said pots. The other faction shows no mercy, play to win.

[Appren]

I havent read so much *DELETED* in ages. In a duel everything is legal, if you want to use potions then do so, and whining about someone using bandages? wtf, how gimp is that? The mage you dueled is an asshole, but he didnt cheat in any way. (most people that call others noobs after they beat them are retards)

Horde on my server like to post whine posts on server board, about alliances using potions in battleground, whine whine whine, just like you do here, if you loose, suck it up and be better prepared next time.

Please refrain from bypassing the word filter. Fluffy has been fed recently so I will only feed the naughty word to him at this time. ~R++

[Gaza0469]

My example above for class A defeating Class B is true. It was always Blizzards intention to create a Paper Rock Scissors combat system.

That is some classes would be the perfect destroyers of other classes. That is what makes WOW unique from other MMORGs.

Every class has one class which should be almost impossible to beat, one class which is very difficult to beat, a couple of classes which are a pushover and a few classes that are 50/50.

Its the basic mechanics of WOW.

Ok - the above assumes 3 things - Both players have equal skill. Both players are playing a character of equal level. Both players are playing characters with equal equipment options.

If a warrior beats a pally - I would put it down to the warrior having more skill, or the warrior being of a higher level, or having better gear. Its as simple as that.

You all know what classes you find tougher for your character and anyone here that says they can beat every class easily with there character I say to them that they either have vastly superior skill to there oponent, or they have better gear or a higher level.

Im saying that they donot have the same skill as yourself, the same gear or perhaps the same level.

I would also like to point out that these ideal Mage v Priest fights are not realistic to expect as someone will likely have an advantage due to one of the above factors. But everyone given the same a Priest should defeat a Mage, a Pally should defeat a Warrior, a Warrior should defeat a Rogue, A Shamen/Pally should defeat a Priest etc.

[bud]

My example above for class A defeating Class B is true. It was always Blizzards intention to create a Paper Rock Scissors combat system.

That is some classes would be the perfect destroyers of other classes. That is what makes WOW unique from other MMORGs.

Every class has one class which should be almost impossible to beat, one class which is very difficult to beat, a couple of classes which are a pushover and a few classes that are 50/50.

Its the basic mechanics of WOW.

Ok - the above assumes 3 things - Both players have equal skill. Both players are playing a character of equal level. Both players are playing characters with equal equipment options.

If a warrior beats a pally - I would put it down to the warrior having more skill, or the warrior being of a higher level, or having better gear. Its as simple as that.

You all know what classes you find tougher for your character and anyone here that says they can beat every class easily with there character I say to them that they either have vastly superior skill to there oponent, or they have better gear or a higher level.

Im saying that they donot have the same skill as yourself, the same gear or perhaps the same level.

I would also like to point out that these ideal Mage v Priest fights are not realistic to expect as someone will likely have an advantage due to one of the above factors. But everyone given the same a Priest should defeat a Mage, a Pally should defeat a Warrior, a Warrior should defeat a Rogue, A Shamen/Pally should defeat a Priest etc.

and now someone will come along and say that his/her mage is defeating priests nine out of ten times consistently! :yawn:

or.. maybe not, after all this isnt the official forums! yay!

[moopy]

Very good point.
Personally, I will blind and bandage in a duel, mainly when dueling healing classes. It's to see who will win, period. If a pally can shield and heal, you better believe I'm going to blind and heal. I don't use pots, but honestly, I don't see a problem with it if they took the time or resources to get said pots. The other faction shows no mercy, play to win.

Good, as long as you can both win and lose with good grace, you sound like a much more interesting opponent than some around here :)

Ok, I can understand that the people who spend all evening duelling outside the gates of IF might have some sort of league going, and might want standardised rules too- that's fine, nothing stopping people making it into a sort of sport. Actually, it's a nice idea, in a limited sort of way. Don't accost complete strangers though, insist that they duel you (even if you read in some forums that "priests r ez 2 kill"), and then bawl because they didn't abide by a load of "rules" which you forgot to mention when you were /chickening and explaining how you were going to "pwn ur ass". I also notice that such people don't tend to mention any "rules" when they win, too :)

If someone insists on duelling me, since my main is fragile, has a strength of 32, armour like damp tissue paper and a spec primarily designed for healing rather than face melting, damn straight I am not going to hold back, engage in a stately dance of manners, or worry about rules. I'm going to scratch their fricken' eyes out, Mr Bigglesworth. I'd rather the other party went all-out too, since then I'd probably have a chance to learn and improve a little.

However, I have no problem with someone politely asking me for a duel, and explaining that they'd like to play by some rules. If the rules are too much for my tiny brain, I can always refuse, give them a quick /salute and go on my merry way.

[JVowels]

I have been reading the forums for a while now and this is offically my first post. Not sure if this is going to help or hinder the conversation. I don't duel often because of whiners and not to mention I tend to be a sore loser. :P But most of the time when I duel with friends we duel with no healing. It is just simpler. I am a mage and I usually only duel one or two people the usual is a pally. Now if he were to heal and I can't use bandages or potions I would stand no chance. He decided that when we duel we duel without healing and the fights still are about 60-40. Save your potions and bandages for PvP the enemy will use ever advantage and you should too!

[Maxxim]

This thread is giving me a good laugh. Not to offend anyone, but I think most of the arguments against using pots, bandages, etc. in a dual are just silly.

First, if you are testing/training your pvp skills, and you want to use all the skills you would in a pvp situation, then use whatever you like. It's not much of an accurate test if you have to develop an alternate fighting strategy.

Second, people forget that you are dualing more than what you can see. If you dual a warrior, you aren't just dualing what your tooltip reports, you may also be dualing a blacksmith who made great armor. If you dual a mage, you could also be dualing an alchemist. You take your opponent as you find them, and that includes the skills and items they may have that you don't know about from looking at them.

Third, any mention of fair is shortsighted. It's not supposed to be fair. If we were all even, what would the fun be?

I think people tend to forget that no matter what your professions, you are using something in a dual. Everyone can get first aid, so if you don't have it, it's your own fault. If someone chooses Alchemy, they can use their pots (you could buy them, you know, if it's that important). If someone is an engineer, they are fully justified in using a death ray or a bomb on you. And for those people who have 2 gathering professions, you are wearing the armor and swinging the weapons you might have bought with the money from those profs. So if you are going to enjoy the benefits of your profession, someone else should too.

[LunarSolaris]

I don't know if I find myself getting aggravated or amused at these types of threads where people try to dictate "rules" for dueling and PvP. My thought is very simple (and the same as many others):

If Blizzard created it, then it's allowable. Period.

If you want to duel with "rules", then create a dueling league. If you want to duel me and ask that I abide by these "rules", then I'll politely decline your duel invite.

I leveled my first aid, bought potions, poisoned my blades for a reason... to use them. I'm not cheating in any way, shape, or form by using them. If you think otherwise... I'll gladly refer you back to the dueling league idea.

[Maxxim]

I don't know if I find myself getting aggravated or amused at these types of threads where people try to dictate "rules" for dueling and PvP. My thought is very simple (and the same as many others):

If Blizzard created it, then it's allowable. Period.

If you want to duel with "rules", then create a dueling league. If you want to duel me and ask that I abide by these "rules", then I'll politely decline your duel invite.

I leveled my first aid, bought potions, poisoned my blades for a reason... to use them. I'm not cheating in any way, shape, or form by using them. If you think otherwise... I'll gladly refer you back to the dueling league idea.

Now wait just a minute! Potions and bandages are one thing, but no one said ANYTHING about poison blades! THAT is unfair, and should never be used in a dual.



(sarcasm, btw. This was my point too, but as usual someone said it with far fewer words than I did)

[LunarSolaris]

Sarcasm noted. Smile granded. :happy65:

Nah, no problem with a little levity on subjects like this. ;)

I think what tends to frustrate me about this type of debate is the sentiment that someone would say I'm "cheating" because I'm using a perfectly legitimate item created in the game by blizzard.

So my response is this:

You don't want to heal yourself? That's fine. But don't cry when I blind you and take the time to bandage myself while you wander around aimlessly for 10 seconds.

[rplusplus]

Rule #1 Don't duel with idiots. This may seem like a no brainer but nothing is more fun to me than to waste 5 mins dueling someone and IF you lose hearing how 1337 they are or IF they lose how I am some sort of Haxxor!

Rule #2 Once the bell dings all bets are off. A mage is squishy and if they need to poly and blink etc. then so be it. A Rogue is not a tank and needs DPS and Poison and all the "Cheap" tricks we use to win. A Warrior is going to survive a LOT of damage and deal A LOT of damage so if I have to cheap shot him, poison him, Blind him, etc. to win then that is it. And while blind I sure as hell am going to bandage. Waste a 1G Major Pot on a duel..... Uh NO!

R++

[Zann the Defender]

Rule #1 Don't duel with idiots. This may seem like a no brainer but nothing is more fun to me than to waste 5 mins dueling someone and IF you lose hearing how 1337 they are or IF they lose how I am some sort of Haxxor!

Rule #2 Once the bell dings all bets are off. A mage is squishy and if they need to poly and blink etc. then so be it. A Rogue is not a tank and needs DPS and Poison and all the "Cheap" tricks we use to win. A Warrior is going to survive a LOT of damage and deal A LOT of damage so if I have to cheap shot him, poison him, Blind him, etc. to win then that is it. And while blind I sure as hell am going to bandage. Waste a 1G Major Pot on a duel..... Uh NO!

R++

I did not intend to duel some one who is a complete moron. I duel people randomly outside of Ironforge. In my Expirience people normally show respect for fellow plaayers by not bandaging. Also, cold blood more than takes care of a bandage if I do say so my self :happy14:

However, mages are squishy, as said. Rogues are supposed to own them, but this isn't always so. I do not bandage against plate, nor do I potion, I just try. I gain more PvP and learn my class better this way.

[bwirum]

Enhance items - no (I have a strong inner debate on the sharpening stones/rogue weapon poisons)
Are you seriously contemplating whether Rogues should be allowed to use one of their classes major advantages? Without poisons a Rogue can usually just lay down and die. Also, how about enchantments with this attitude?

[Kosmo]

Forcing rules that are not built in the game is pointless. I consider duel a test for PvP so I want the opponent to throw everything at me.

[Skullhammer]

I don't see what the problem is - this is War after all!
Where do we stop at disallowing additions do I have to wear armour that has no enchantments, should all duels in fact be carried out naked with bare fists (Queensberry rules), in my book anything goes.
What is the purpose of a duel is it honour well if so agree this before the duel if not and as I suspect for most players it's PVP practise and if this is the case use all the resourses you have available.

[LunarSolaris]

It sounds like the general sentiment tends to lean toward "anything goes" as long as it's something that Blizzard intended it to be so.

I very very rarely ever duel (mostly because I don't like it), but I love to PvP. As was already mentioned, dueling is a form of testing out PvP skills. As such, it makes sense that any given class should be able to use all the tools at their disposal to win. Not allowing certain items to be used is simply asanine IMVHO. I say if a person is willing to blow a superior health pot or major health pot during a duel, then more power to them. If they can stun the opponent with blind (for example) and bandage, then do that.

If you don't like people using tools at their disposal, then you have two options:

1. Don't duel.
2. Create a dueling league and implement whatever rules you want in it.

I can say that the few times that I've ventured outside of IF for the random duels, I don't think I recall hearing anyone complaining about people healing themselves.

[mortic]

This is just a quick poll.

Scenario: I dueled a mage(level 60) on my level 58 rogue. I ambushed him, he blinks, I vanish and cheap shot him. After that, he novas, sheeps, and bandages. Now, he does the usual, Frostbolt, and continue. I get him down over half, and he uses a potion. I still havn't used any health altering effects. I continue to fight. He beats me, I have low health, he has 1/5 th health.

Then he said "Did you really expect to beat a mage with an some epics?". I reply "Nothing can stop me from trying, atleast you had to pot and Bandage.". He laughs, calls me a noob. Debate continues. He keep calling me a Noob for A) Not being 60 on tht server, B) Not having any Epics, and C) Not having an enchant on my newly gotten Sacred Charge (Just ran UBRS before dueling him).

Now, Mage says he is from an Elite Guild, the *best* guild on the server, I refute it by telling him Best is an opinion, and he laughs at me again, calling me a noob.

Anyways, the point is, is using Health Altering Effects, aside from class abillities to heal (Priest, Paladins, Shammies, etc) fair in duels?

In a duel or fight, everything is fair. If the mage is using bandage, what's stopping you from doing the same thing? ... If the mage is using a healing pot, what's stopping you from using a healing pot yourself?

Don't worry, you won't burn your whole stack of healing pots or bandages in one duel. Most duel is less than a couple of minutes in duration, thus it is unlikely that you or the mage will burn more than a bandage or a healing pot.

One more thing, if you are a rogue, you can use one of your DoT skills to stop the mage from using bandage.

EDIT:
Personally, during a duel, I think it is an art to be able to use bandage. So know your class and your opponent well, then pick a sweet spot to bandage yourself during battle. I also think it is an art to be able to stop your opponent from using bandage.

[rplusplus]

Besides everything including bandages have timers on them. It's not like Diablo II where you could have a whole 16 slot belt with full rejuves you could spam all day with.

R++

[garzahd]

I'm on a PvP server. I don't duel much - 1v1 superiority is not something that excites me - but I get my share of player fights anyway.

In my opinion, he who dies with the most toys wins. Death is never final, and I like toys. If my L60 duels someone, my opponent pots for 1000, bandages then beats me, I feel like a winner because I walk away 1g richer than the other guy.

If some stupid mage in Gadgetzan sheeps me, pyroblasts, the whole nine yards then gets swarmed by guards and killed, I feel like a winner whether I lived or died. He walks away with a 0.5-1g repair bill and maybe a few cp, I walk away inconvenienced for 30 seconds.

If I'm in the mood for real PvP, I stick to the battlegrounds.

[YINKO]

I am new to wow I love the game. I am a lvl 40 mage i was fighting a lvl 39 warlock we are friend and he has been playing a long time. I rember fighting him in the past knowing he had health stone and some other cool stuff i thought it sucked to fight against any 1 that could heal so i looked for a way to heal my self I chose alchemy to use to make me stronger or what not i also did alot of pvp battle got up to 8,000 honor points to get better gear a absorb shield trinket and a fear trinket and some healing potions that heal you 900 i think every 1 can get these potions from pvping alot you can carry 5 I did all this fighting earning all my points just to strip all of it away and fight so called farly every 1 has access to some kind of trink or potion thats why its in game. I saw some people say that alchemy potions that you made are not alowed lol wow i thank that is messed up, what about tailoring or enchanting or black smithing. I even had my chest enchanted to everything 3 do i need to take that off or carry another robe with me in case i want to dule.
I thank you should use what you have no mater what if you have a band aid you can use it and live or not and die i am going to use it. I might sound like a noob but its what i belive if you can beat them find some thing better that will if you want to talk about fair nothing is realy fair some one will complain about something instead of trying harder. A far as what i dont like i hate fear lol it sucks I can move i have no control puts me out of fight do i stay in fear or do i use the trinket i had to get 4,124 honor points for let me see i have 2 warlock spells casted on me do i wan to wait for the pet to come up and hit me and a fire blast to do more damage or do i use the trinket? yep you gussed it im going to pop that bad boy. so what i cant use it again for 5 mins in the pvp world usely it take you almost that long to run to fight the target.
I think every thing goes use what you know you have a matial arts fighter and a street figthter they fight who has the advantage depends i guss who faught more who gain more skills so both have some advantage in some areas all you have to do is pick 1. thanks for reading this hope it helps i feel better any way lol.

[PlayThemAll]

I'm finding this very interesting.

The other night on a new Lock I started, someone challanged me. They kept bugging me until I gave in. I used a healthstone (just force of habit when my health got to a certain level) and was severly criticised for it.

Later I was in another area and was challanged again. This time I didn't heal but the challenger used pots to buff and heal and beat me badly. This time I was called a noob for loosing.

If you want to define rules I have no problem with that. Just ask me politely and lay down the rules before the challenge.

If you just pop the duel flag without defining any rules, or don't take NO for an answer, then don't expect me to hold back.

People take it to personally/seriously. Its just a game, its supposed to be fun.

[Findariel]

Hehe that people take things as duels so seriously ....

Well anyway, my personal opinion: use whatever you want, if you want to waste an expensive potion I won't/can't stop you.

If the game wasn't intended like this, Blizzard wouldn't (shouldn't) have allowed it, but they did. Same for powerlevelling low level chars with your 60, twinking, or using potions and scrolls and engineering thingys in the BGs. Perhaps to create as much gold sinks as possible, who knows.

And oh: rock/paper/scissors .. don't make me laugh! Some classes are better than others (until the next boost/nerf) but they're never balanced like that.

[vampari]

To me a duel is a mock battle to simulate real world pvp, and perfect tactics. I would want my opponent to use everything at his disposal except health/mana pots which everyone can use but an unnesessary expense. I dont't even use them in BGs unless my survival would effect the outcome of a battle.

[Moustgaard]

Every goes, winning is paramount, if people can't stand the heat, too bad I guess. Though I don't enjoy wasting healt-potions on duels, I have no problem using fx. healtstones.

[Clavina]

This is just a quick poll.

Scenario: I dueled a mage(level 60) on my level 58 rogue. I ambushed him, he blinks, I vanish and cheap shot him. After that, he novas, sheeps, and bandages. Now, he does the usual, Frostbolt, and continue. I get him down over half, and he uses a potion. I still havn't used any health altering effects. I continue to fight. He beats me, I have low health, he has 1/5 th health.

Then he said "Did you really expect to beat a mage with an some epics?". I reply "Nothing can stop me from trying, atleast you had to pot and Bandage.". He laughs, calls me a noob. Debate continues. He keep calling me a Noob for A) Not being 60 on tht server, B) Not having any Epics, and C) Not having an enchant on my newly gotten Sacred Charge (Just ran UBRS before dueling him).

Now, Mage says he is from an Elite Guild, the *best* guild on the server, I refute it by telling him Best is an opinion, and he laughs at me again, calling me a noob.

Anyways, the point is, is using Health Altering Effects, aside from class abillities to heal (Priest, Paladins, Shammies, etc) fair in duels?

The problem here is not the potting and bandaging, its the fact that you duelled an idiot. If you caused him to pot and bandage then you should be proud of your achievement.

I duel for practice against specific classes to get a feel for their abilities. I would prefer my opponents to pot, bandage, blow cooldowns etc to make it as 'realistic' as possible.

[windrunner]

To me a duel is a mock battle to simulate real world pvp, and perfect tactics. I would want my opponent to use everything at his disposal except health/mana pots which everyone can use but an unnesessary expense. I dont't even use them in BGs unless my survival would effect the outcome of a battle.

Exactly ...

Also, I've seen what happens in the chat bar afterwards when someone feels they've been wronged because someone bandaged or took a pot.

They can say all they want about not playin by rules, but in the end one point sticks out. They lost, the other guy won.

Besides .. is there some universal law that declares bandaging, potions or any legit item in the game, must not be used during a duel?

You see ... Winning is more important to as many players as there are players who believe in rules.

[Imrei]

I've always felt that if it is able to be done, or be used, then it is OK to do it in a duel.....

If someone wants to waste items in a dual, thats fine by me :)
If I win/loose a dual? Fine by me :) I count the score where it really DOES count.. pvp :) I've always kind of laughed at dualing in all honesty though, as on my server the BEST duelist is also the absolute WORST player in pvp...

[leonhead]

Its ok to heal, but if they beat you they shouldn't be boasting bout it.

[Vindictive]

I kind of see it as Bandage+Healthstone(+Last Stand?) is ok in Duels. Potting is not, guess I did too much Diablo 2 LoD PvP, potting is a big nono. But if u can find time to bandage in a duel you should really be able to, its not like you can just use it while getting nuked.

But yea, duels aren't like outdoor PvP so you can always ask before hand whats cool or not.