Ganking ethics?

[MammaMu]

Hi all,
I usually duo with my wife on a highpop pvp server, me as an of now 41 shadow priest and my better half as a 39 feral druid. Obviously we have quite ok pvp capability as a team, but my usualy timid wife has turned out to be one mean ingame mother. She's totally dedicated to the "If its red, its dead"-school and have no scruples what so ever.

For my own part I have a bit more self-morale; no killing of people more than 5 lvls below us, no killing of drinking enemies or opponents with very low life/mana, no camping etc. Just your plain humanistic playstyle, do unto others and so on.

I try to impose my ganking ethics on my wife. Usually, not always, she let off the kills with mumbleings about "..but hes a gnome, lets just friggin eat him...".

So, am I really a fairplaying mature wower as I would like to think, or Teh Whimp Carebear n00b L00ser!!!11!11?

Do you have a ganking ethic or do you attack everythink on sight?

[Four Fathers]

Hi all,
I usually duo with my wife on a highpop shadow priest and my better half a 39 feral druid. She's totally dedicated and have no scruples what so ever.

Do you have ethic?

I hope you don't mind I just flipped around few words. I couldn't help my self. I usually duo with my wife too.

On the topic: Well, my advise to you. Do not piss of you wife as she seems to be a scary one. :scared:

I don't play PvP, but on PvE servers I usally help the opposite faction and I hate dueling with passion.
IMHO having some rules and a moral code wouldn't hurt, even if all around don't follow. If nothing else, you'll have the feeling of keeping your head above the mud.

[Streetvision]

i fight people my own level and i gank.

i don't care if you all think im a n00b and cant verse people my own level.

im not into this carebear ****, i play on pvp server for this reason, yes in hillsbrad when i was level 20 i got ganked by level 60's and camped.

but its no worse then when i go down to redridge.

even if u have rezz sickness, of atacking a mob. if i see you, well you're dead.

ive even shot level 60s that have waved at me, and im level 29 so its not like i would win, but i do it because there alliance.

so think what you want.

[xyle]

IMHO, there's really no such thing as "ganking ethics". If you're ganking, it already means that you're doing something bad by defenition (i.e. killing someone with low health/mana, someone fighting a mob, someone considerably lower level than you, etc). Every player looks differently on PvP with the opposite faction, much like you and your wife, but on a PvP server anything goes. Some people like to help out members of the opposite faction in distress, and some people will corpse camp someone 20 levels lower than them for 3 hours. If your wife wants to kill Alliance, just let her. The people she's ganking rolled a PvP server and should just have to deal with it. But if you're ganking at level 40, be prepared for whoever you're ganking to bring in their level 60 main char or level 60 guildies and repay the favor.

Personally, I don't believe in ganking. I'll generally leave Horde alone unless I see them trying to gank other Alliance. In this case, there are no rules; I'll kill the ganking Horde even if he's 20 levels lower and at 50% health. If someone decides to corpse camp my alt I won't hesitate to bring in my main char and corpse camp them back, and if someone attacks me when I'm on low health I'll res, wait until they're low on health and gank them back.

But again, each to his own. If your wife ganks every Alliance she sees and has no pangs of guilt about it there's technically nothing wrong with that. Sure, it's not very nice and moral, but ganking is part of playing on a PvP server and it's not considered harrassment or griefing. Some people just don't realize that. True, being ganked is not fun, but people either have to learn to live with it or move to a PvE server. And I say all this after being ganked countless times, corpse camped, ambushed by UD Rogues (hate them :grrr: ), chased acoss half of STV by a level 60 (at level 30) and god knows what else. But I'm still here, and I'm still glad I rolled a PvP server.

[MammaMu]

xyle: well, a bit of semantic mistake from my side maybe, i wrote ganking when I really mean..eh, smallscale pvp outside BG:s maybe? Its true that ganking ethics is kind of oxymoronic (or just plain moronic ;-) ). I mostly agree with your views, even though my foremost hate object is ?? paladins instead of UD rogues ;-) But as you write, thats the pvp-server lifestyle and I live with it.

streetvision: I don't try to moralise here, the goal is to have fun while playing whichever way one likes, I was just a bit curious about peoples .... smallscale pvp habits.

And lol at your wordflipping Four Fathers. My ball'n'chain isn't really scary irl, but i guess theres a lot of hidden Freudian psychobable here if one would dare to analyse it ;-)

[Kashin]

My way: I never go out to a place with the sole purpose of PvP, even though I'm on a PvP server, unless it's for one of the three battlegrounds. However, there is no justification in my eyes to see a member of my faction getting murdered without stepping in to help, even though I might die myself in the process. Other reasons I might go into battle for is resources: if allies occupy a spot I need to grind for a quest and we cannot/will not share the spot, I'll do my best to get them to leave, if I'm not all underpowered. I told a story in one of the threads here about a hunter that a friend and I engaged over some yetis, turning out to a full 10-15 turns in killing each other, so people don't always get the picture...

My view: Sure, I'll admit that the PvP servers are made for open war between the factions and in war all means are allowed. There is a difference in how you view yourself in war though: did you fíght bravely? Honorably? I believe it comes down to everyone to decide where they stand in their conflict with the opposition and then learn to deal with what they become while making that stand. I myself like to play my shaman with a fiery resolve and hold my head high while doing honorable actions, where ganking is not an honorable action.

PS. Fint namn, MammaMu... :happy53:

[Eskodas]

I'll take out ally's whenever and wherever I find them. If I'm too low then I'll go and get friends, if they're too low then tough. They can be on low health, in the middle of a fight, rez sickness, bandaging or eating/drinking and I'll still take you out. If you're duelling then you're really asking for it, though I'll wait untill you're both fairly low - my aim is to kill you, not work out whether I'm better than you.

I'm a rogue and I'm not meant to be nice, and at the end of the day it's PvP. If you get upset then roll on PvE and play BG or duel everyone in sight.

I won't camp, and I won't grief, but they're the only allowances I'll make. I expect to get the same treatment every time I play, and I have enough alts to keep me going when it's just not my night ;)

[Lewisham]

Ganking (in the strict sense of the term, not just whacking people that didn't expect it) is mugging defenceless people of their time for your own personal schadenfreude.

You decide the ethics of that.

:chinny:

Now, while I get that temptation, because everyone likes feeling superior for just a quick rush (I like watching NE females scream and twirl in their death throes too), what I don't get is why you would corpse camp. Corpse camping is just you wasting all the time the other guy is by corpse running. It doesn't make any sense. Campers recieve the same punishment the victims did. Campers have issues.

Chris

[MammaMu]

Lewisham: Aggree, even though I haven't really gotten my mind to twist that way, but if I follow your reasoning correctly what you're really saying is that campers gank themself while camping. Autoganking. A comforting though :happy34:

Well, no more forum lurking today, time to go from work and get some gaming done.

[Bsnake]

I try to follow these general rules

I let the opposing member fully heal if fightin mobs
Don't attack players 8 lvls below, unless they attack me when I /dance with them
I try not to kill someone more than 4 times in a day, unless they won't give up

There are exceptions though, such as if someone toggles for me when I'm in their territory, because they are stupid. It's pointless to attack someone that is lvl hidden to you just because I am "THE EVIL HORDE OMG"

[Lewisham]

Yeah, I worded it badly, but that's what I meant :)

[Hateblade]

I'm on the Staghelm PvE "carebear" server, so I don't get to see much of the "ganking" that you all talk about. But, we do get our occasional brawls, which are a blast, IMO. When it comes to that, I'll only try to kill things at my lvl or above, because I don't get HKs for low lvl kills. However, if I'm in a raid group with people lower lvl then me, then they will get the HKs for those kills. In that case, it's all free game. I'm not one to corpse camp, though I don't think you really could in a PvE server. 5 min. PvP timer and all. My problem with the PvE server is that instead of ganking, it's always 3vs1 or 5vs2. At lvl 43, I can hold my own fairly well. But, when I'm with another lvl 40ish, and we get BEAT DOWN by 4 lvl ??, that kinda hurts. Mind you, we aren't flagging to fight them. We are in a raid that goes sour, and these guys come to clean us out. All is fair in love and war, but overkill always hurts. :happy14:

[Naolin]

hmm I kill anything that isn't grey (so honor targets) no matter their status, it's their fault letting their defences drop (okay not always but meh)
If a grey targets me and tries to annoy me they are dead as well, I kill greys if they attack my fellow hordies ;p (gotta protect your people ;p)

However a week ago I was in silithus, there is a quest there you need to kill some twilight hammer leader inside a cave. The mobs there are evil and I realized I wasn't going to survive alone, however there was a dwarf warrior as well, he spotted me and let me live while I was almost dead (now thats a new one)
He was obviously on the same quest so we did it together, using emotes to point out targets and get our ideas known. In the end we both did the quest and went our merry way, this ofcourse is rare :p

[Serrat]

i play on RP server and i still concider anyone flagged as a target, not saying i always attack, but if i do they should accept the consequences of being flagged.

if someone kills me while im flagged thats fine i accept it, ive even been corpsed camped i acepted that too all part of showing your self as a pvpenabled person.


like above, if there grey i will leave alone unless they attack me or provoke me, and ya emoting chicken at mill will get a response.

ive attacked solo a group of 4 alliance after they chickened me, Serrats character flaw, easily provoked :p

all in all if your flagged its fair :happy34:

[Steamboat]

I struggle with this and my opinion changes from day to day. But here is a problem I face when I'm trying to be nice. Yesterday I was in the Swamp of Sorrows doing a quest. I see a rogue my level. He sees me. I wave, he doesn't wave back.

I wasn't in the mood, I just wanted to get my freaking quest done. But I can't comfortably turn around and start killing mobs, knowing that he's back there and could be waiting for me to be otherwise engaged before attacking me.

So I killed him. The moral is, if you're not in the mood to pvp, wave back.

[Hrungnir]

I'd say don't kill anyone while they're busy with monsters or if they're much lower level than you, unless they've been really annoying or done something you disapprove of.

Mostly because killing someone when they can't focus their attention on you doesn't really get you anything. Technically, an honor kill, but woo hoo, you beat me up when I had 15 health, aren't you the big man.

But wait until someone heals, then stealthing up and attacking them, I consider that fair game. Stealth and stun are what balance a rogue - saying he can't use it is like saying that a warlock isn't allowed to use fear or attack from a distance.

But I see no gain from killing an easy target. It's the big prey that a hunter lives for. Killing someone grey to me or in a fight is about as satisfying as killing boars is as a level 50.

[practo]

I usually just try to quest/grind and not gank people..
But if I see someone who might be thinking of ganking me (people waiting for me to fight a mob and become at low health) I try to either run away or stealth and see what they do..

Yesterday while grinding, an undead mage kept coming back and killing me when I'm fighting 2 mobs at the same time (he didn't corse camp me) so i got fed up and at the end I "/beg"ged him!! :happy53: So he "/wave"d and I "/wave"d back! And so instead of killing me he started helping me kill some mobs, but then a couple of NE showed up and attacked him and killed him.. I tried to get them to stop but they wouldn't listen!

That doesn't happen often but it seemed cool!

[Xal]

To be honest, I just got tired of the endless parade of idiots on PvP servers. Not even the horde ones; a well-timed frost nova does a fine job of shutting even the most obnoxious of rogues up. What pissed me off to no end were the PUGs composed of utter morons and the endless, brainless gankfest that is STV, exacerbated by Streetvision's brothers-in-insecurity. Got my mage to 60, got my warlock to 52, gave up, rerolled PvE, and I've noticed the grind goes a lot faster when you don't have to deal with the gank crews.

Basically, if they'd had Battlegrounds when I was making my first character, I would never have even glanced at a PvP server.

[mesonm]

I try to follow these general rules

I let the opposing member fully heal if fightin mobs

Huh? No way....I take them as they come, just as they would have me...


Don't attack players 8 lvls below, unless they attack me when I /dance with them


Agreed...20 lvls below is okay, 12, even 9, or 1-7 below, but not 8. ;)

I try not to kill someone more than 4 times in a day, unless they won't give up

There are exceptions though, such as if someone toggles for me when I'm in their territory, because they are stupid.

If I am interpreting this correctly, you are ok with the fight if they strike first...regardless of their level...

I rarely go in for nonBG PvP unless provoked...I see nothing wrong with 'red is dead', but have better things to do most of the time.

But I will wave to and dance with alli I see...Most often, they either fire at me or run away. It has only been a few times where they have stuck around to battle side by side.

[Steamboat]

Mesonm...out of curiosity, what is your toon's name?


-Sanguina on Laughing Skull

[cdstp]

My actions change day-to-day.(play on PvP server)

If a horde/ally makes me "mad". This could be their name(if I see a tauren with my alliance chars with anything related with cows it's no-mercy), guild names(Red=Dead, etc) If they have ganked me, ganked a friend, or doing /rude, /spit, and such in Gadget, Booty Bay.

I try not to kill lowbies...but if I'm happy and feel at the top of the world it's a fifty-fifty I'll kill them. If I'm sad/angry it's red=dead.

I gank because of all the times I've been ganked. It's my payback if you like.
If I play Alliance it's dead hordies if I feel like it.
If I play Horde it's dead allies if I feel like it.

So, at the end of the day, I love PvP. Gives me a way of unleashing my anger.
I'm not that good at PvP, but I'm a mean, lean, killing machine(sry for the phrase ppl, couldn't stop it coming out) if I feel like it.

If you ask me is it okay to gank, yes it is.
Is it okay to gank lowbies, yes it is. Maybe not nice, but it's okay.
Is it okay to be evil, yes if you feel like it, it is.

If anyone got a problem with that reroll on a PvE server, or stop being flagged!!!oneoneeleven!!11exclamation mark!!!1

[Xaro]

I realize not all alience are bastards, however after wasting days struggling thru STV at lvl 28+ and getting ganked endless times by 60's, i will attack anyone regardless of their lvl. I wont attack lowbies if theire in a fight or all alone, but if there is a group of 3-4 of them they are fair game, i have helped them finish killing whatever mobs they were fighting, and even complete some quests and if they wave or some such thing i will let them live. I have a soft spot for NE females, i usually just /tickle and run.

[maladroit2000]

I personally find gankers a bit pathetic and rather boring. Here is my ganking story from todays play:

I was running though Hillsbrad looking for tin nodes with my lvl 36 Tauren druid when I notice a lvl 31 human paladin killing two yetis, both around his level. I ignored him and carried on (I could kill him so easily - whats the point?) but as I was running away I notice a lvl 28 rogue emerge from the shadows and attack him when he was down to about 50% health. The paladin was down to virtually no health before he managed to get in a heal and try and fight back. I ran back, went Bear form and agroed the yetis so it was a one on one fight between the paladin and the rogue. After I killed the yetis I sat by and watched the paladin pummel the rogue. I then blew a kiss to the Paladin, who bowed down in respect, and we went our seperate ways.

I then got a torrent of abuse from the rogue who said it was a "Revenge ganking" and I should have minded my own business etc etc until I finally put him on my ignore list. I have to say I felt a little guilty but I would do the same again.

Should I have just let the Rogue gank the helpless Paladin? What do people think?

[Lewisham]

I then got a torrent of abuse from the rogue who said it was a "Revenge ganking" and I should have minded my own business etc etc until I finally put him on my ignore list. I have to say I felt a little guilty but I would do the same again.

Should I have just let the Rogue gank the helpless Paladin? What do people think?

I think you have a lot more honour than that Rogue. Even he is a tosser enough to send you all that abuse, I would doubt the ganking even happened. Revenge is not a good excuse.

And he couldn't finish off a pally that was 3 levels above him, after being stealthed and the Paladin at 50%? He sounds like a pretty crappy Rogue too.

Chris

[Afballz]

I think you have a lot more honour than that Rogue. Even he is a tosser enough to send you all that abuse, I would doubt the ganking even happened. Revenge is not a good excuse.

And he couldn't finish off a pally that was 3 levels above him, after being stealthed and the Paladin at 50%? He sounds like a pretty crappy Rogue too.

Chris

I agree, a 50% health head start should mean death for anyone up to 4-5lvls above you. Esp for a rogue from stealth. If ganking is all fair game then other players should feel free to hamper your rat tactics any way they please.
Same faction or not.

[Four Fathers]

Ganking (in the strict sense of the term, not just whacking people that didn't expect it) is mugging defenceless people of their time for your own personal schadenfreude.

You decide the ethics of that.

:chinny:

Now, while I get that temptation, because everyone likes feeling superior for just a quick rush (I like watching NE females scream and twirl in their death throes too), what I don't get is why you would corpse camp. Corpse camping is just you wasting all the time the other guy is by corpse running. It doesn't make any sense. Campers recieve the same punishment the victims did. Campers have issues.

Chris

Well put. Even at war there are rules of engagement and whoever breaks them will face Court Marshall.

Camping, ganking, attacking when someone is low on health, 20 levels below you or such, is just pathetic.

[Streetvision]

Should I have just let the Rogue gank the helpless Paladin? What do people think?

OMG that was alliance. you're ment to kill him not help him.

[Eskodas]

It's a bit harsh saying someone's pathetic when all they're doing is playing the game the way it was intended, if you want to impose a moral code on your own game then feel free, though it sounds like you want an RP server rather than a straight PvP one.

We are expected to kill the opposition, and the honor system is designed to protect the lower levels. Obviously this has it's flaws, though I find the vast majority of players stick by it. The simple fact most people want to quest and have stuff to do stops the ganking - though STV is still a nightmare for mid levels...

And critisizing a rogue for attacking from stealth? That's almost as low as a priest/druid/shaman/pally healing themselves - how dare they :|

[MammaMu]

Ooops,
lots of feelings here.

Not to further put gas on the flames, but regarding the rogue/stealth thingie, I have total respect for rogues doing their stuff; stealthing, stunlocking and slapping me around with obsene dps towards death in a couple of seconds. Thats the charm of being a rogue I guess and its fine by me.

What makes me wonder though is that I never since EU release have been killed by an aproximately equal-levled rogue outside BGs while leveling, its always the ?? ones that attack. It might just be me having bad luck and getting slapped by low statistic probabilities, but it tickles my curiousity even further about smallscale pvp habits.

One especially neat gank..sorry, smallscale pvp habit that I've had the dubious pleasure of recieving a couple of times during the last weeks is when the ?? rogue has a 10-15 level lower pal with him, that is about my level or preferably a bit lower. The lower pal approaches in plain sight, and I just wave or keep going on with my business. The pal slowy gets closer, and I have to keep an eye on him in case he will attack...at which time the ?? rogue have positioned himself and its time for me to work off some fat with another corpserun. If i get the time I just shield, /golfclap and let the ?? finish his stuff. Seems like overdoing it to me as the rogue could have spanked me good without the lowbie partner, but it may be some CP obscurity in the Honor system at work here that has passed me by.

Still, to each his own way of having wow fun.

[Mort]

It's a bit harsh saying someone's pathetic when all they're doing is playing the game the way it was intended, if you want to impose a moral code on your own game then feel free, though it sounds like you want an RP server rather than a straight PvP one.

Whenever ethics in PvP come up, someone has to say the above thing (allthough it is usually expressed somewhat more harshly). Imho, this is oversimplifying the whole issue. There are a great number of things that is very much an intended part of the game, but generally not accepted by most players.

For example, if I offer someone to make a weapon for them if they provide the materials, and after getting them I just run of saying "Pwnd n00b", that is legal in the game (that is, I wont be banned, or even get a warning), but I doubt anyone would object to someone calling me pathetic. And what if I ninja a boss drop, and call the rest of the instance group suckers as I hearthstone out? Still not illegal, wont get me banned.

For both of these cases, the above response could be said to anyone complaining about this sort of behavior. Cheating in deals and ninjaing boss loot is just as much a part of the game as ganking low level players.

But there are people who would never even consider doing things like this, same as people who would never gank lower levels. I dont think it is fair to laugh at them and call them carebears and what not (not that you did that Eskodas, Im just talking generaly about the type of response threads like this often get).

And as far as the whole "Go to RP server"-response goes, one might just as well suggest that the gankers should go play on an RP-PvP server, since they seem to enjoy roleplaying that there is a war going on. That way the rest of us can have the PvP servers, those of us who acknowledge that there are in fact other people behind the controls of both the guy with the resources for the weapon, the groupmembers who have just spent 2 hours getting to and killing a boss, and the low level player that was just ganked.

[moopy]

I then got a torrent of abuse from the rogue who said it was a "Revenge ganking" and I should have minded my own business etc etc until I finally put him on my ignore list. I have to say I felt a little guilty but I would do the same again.

Should I have just let the Rogue gank the helpless Paladin? What do people think?

/clap

Good for you. Of course I am biased, since my main is on a PvE server, and I most certainly lack the "killer instinct"; I don't derive much pleasure from ruining someone's day. It always pains me when PvP-tagged lowbies assume that I am going to kill them.

Actually, recently, while tidying up some old quests, I had to go and kill Alexi Barov in the Horde camp in bulwark. I discussed the matter with a gnomelock associate, and we decided to do it late at night, after the majority of gankmonkeys had been sent to bed, simply to avoid tedium.

We turned up there with a guildie pally and a friendly warrior (my main is a heal-specced priest), armed to the teeth and expecting the worst. The lock was ready to drop an infernal if needed, I fired up the Mechanical Yeti (oooh, scary). There was an lv 3x Orc warrior there when we arrived. I gave him a nice polite /bow and /salute while I was buffing the party up, to show that we were only there for the mobs. Obviously we had no clue what he was saying, it could have been threats or simply "go ahead, this will be fun to watch". At this point a 60 shaman turned up too.

My heart sank, I feared that maybe the word was spreading on the chat channels that we were there, and if we left it too long, the undergrowth would be full of rogues. I gave the shammie a grin and a polite salute, and told my party that we'd better get it over with before a crowd gathered.

Then the orc warrior pointed at Alexi and gave the "open fire" order. Darn, was he really signalling that they didn't mind, or was it just so we'd be good and tagged ready for ambushing?

Anyway, in the best Leroy Jenkins tradition, I said "ok, let's do this" or somesuch, and we pulled. I thought that the sooner that we got it over and done with the better. After all, we just needed to kill Alexi and loot the body, if we died after that, we hadn't failed. Of course, this stuck in my throat a little, since I object to my toon dying (not to a Narina-like level, but it still irritates me).

To cut a long story short, we dropped Alexi and the shadow priestess on seconds. I was very careful to keep my party on 90% health in case we got ambushed, and the gnomelock commented "hardly a scratch". We made our polite and rushed goodbyes to the hordies in the area before the screaming local defense channel drew a crowd, saddled up, and rode hard for Chillwind camp.

I still don't know if the locals really were planning on ambushing us or not. We were obviously well-equipped and ready for a fight, buffed up to the eyeballs too, so I don't blame the shammie for keeping a low profile. The gnomelock could have torn him to shreds in seconds (he's a lot more dangerous than he looks, that one); that's even before you start worrying about the curiously over-equipped priest or the melee fighters. I'd like to think that the hordies really were expressing polite amusement, rather than trying to set us up.

For my own part, if I see a PvP-tagged player of another faction getting hammered by a mob, I will try and tear the mob down rather than attack the player. If I saw one of my own faction trying to gank them while there were fighting mobs, I hope I'd do the same as you.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of moron griefers, I hate the way that in neutral towns (for example, Gadgetzan), if two alliance are duelling, often a Tauren will come and park a kodo on top of them so they can't see what they're doing. That's just a wee bit lame.

[cyradis2003]

RP-PVP here and I say kill em all. :happy65:

Well, not the babies of course but if people come into contested areas then they are aware of what will happen to them.

Little story:

A group of 3 guildies decided that our lives were incomplete and that we really should take a trip through the deadmines. We were a 32 Rogue, a 24 Mage and myself a 24 Lock (all undead oddly enough) We all swam up the coast and as we entered Westfall our Orc Warrior buddy logged in so we summoned his happy green butt to come help us. He was 32 at the time. Notice the lack of healers...

Running along across the firleds we passed a level 17 gnome mage and waved, danced and told jokes with him for a bit before continuing onour way (he was unflagged) a lvl 21 Pally ran right past us and though we sent a few potshots at him we didn't chase him. Inside the mines we were jumped by a 31 Priestess and a 27 Magelet, they decided to jump us and died. We completed the instance with the tank dieing once at Smite and popping right back up to finish him off thanks to soulstone.

After the instance we were understandable full of general good humor and decided to raid (4 man no healer) Sentinal Hill. The babies stood there staring at us and we killed a guard or two and a lvl 31 warrior that was mining near town :innocent: for about 10 minutes then they all grouped up and led an attack. We died many times but during the fight we were totally impartial in that I cast nasty DOT's on lvl 10's just as fast as on lvl 22's and up.

A few weeks later we steamrolled through Wetlands for a blacksmithing quest for a guildie 5 man, still no healer but this time our highest was 34. We slaughtered anything that stood in our way. Including a lvl 7 that happened to be on the road as we ran past him. And a lvl 11 that was in the tunnels on our way to the fp in badlands. Conversely we also attacked a ?? rogue and any other alliance that happened along.

Did we do it out of mean spirited hatred of lvl 7 Nelfs? Nope. Did we fight the ?? rogue to try and be all big and bad? Nope. We were simply a group of friends having a good time and running across a PvP server. If you see a gang of ?? Horde running at you (to the little guys we would all be unknowable) it is unwise to stand still and gawk. If you see a group of Horde Lowbies running at you be all means try and take us out, he got the 2 small squishies but the others served him up a few times.

If you want peaceful living and equality and fairness in a realm then you should play as much as possible in your own areas and do not enter contested lands alone or behind the level curve. Is it fair that you don't have the freedom to go where you please without danger? Nope, but it is realistic.


That said ... this all reminds me an awful lot about the comparative morality discussions of PK'ing in Diablo. Fact is that it is in the game for a reason and as long as you aren't using cheats, hacks or other nasty stuff you are pretty much allowed to swing your sword at whoever you want to. It sucks to be that lvl 5 that we ran over but I am guessing since we didn't camp him that he shrugged and resed and kept running. He may even have laughed a little, I know I would have. :winky47:

[Eskodas]

Aye Mort, you're quite right. However I didn't mean that people should clear off to an RP server if they don't agree with me, just that you'd be more likely to find people playing by this self imposed moral code so it may be more what you're after.

And yeah I do think ninja's are a pain in the rear, the same as teh rip off merchants, but again you have a choice and don't buy from them or group with them. On PvP you have the choice of staying in friendly areas, going solo in contested and taking your chances, or grouping everywhere you go for a little protection.

As a rule of thumb I won't attack low level players, nor will I bust in when the ally is fighting or recharging - though I will if it's for revenge or I'm in a foul mood. I can understand that some people want it to be like an extended BG, and I can also understand why folks want to kill everything in sight, and this is an argument that been ongoing since the honor system first came in.

Put simply if I'm not busy questing (or you're interfering with my questing) and I'll get honor from killing you then there's a good chance I'll try and kill you. If you've annoyed me and I'm in a foul mood then I will definitely try and kill you, even if you're grey.

If you don't like it then do what I do - find a big group of high level mates and go raid Southshore ;)

[Mort]

I know, and your right Eskodas, its all about choice (allthough staying in a friendly area past lvl 25 is not realy an option :) ). All I wanted to point out is that there is nothing wrong with complaining about the gankers any more than complaining about ninjas etc. Saying its a part of the game and that the complainer should go to a RP/PvE server isnt realy that constructive (no offense).

[WingedNazgul]

Saying its a part of the game and that the complainer should go to a RP/PvE server isnt realy that constructive (no offense).

I fail to see how speaking the truth and giving the best possible advice could possibly be viewed as non-constructive.

[bud]

I fail to see how speaking the truth and giving the best possible advice could possibly be viewed as non-constructive.

i am sorry but actually, i fail to see how it is "speaking the truth". as was said earlier, this is clearly a question of morality. not game mechanics. and i dont think rp = moral players, and pvp should equal immoral players.

[Eskodas]

I agree Mort, which is why I tried to clarify what I meant about the RP reference, unfortunately it came out wrong.

I know I'm helping to keep it going but I get bored of people complaining about ganking, as you say it's just as dull a complaining about ninjas, etc. They are a part of the game whether we like it or not, but rather than getting insulting on forums we should learn to live with it, change our choice of servers, or try and fix it.

Get the big guilds on your server to sign up to some kind of PvP charter, and the players seen to go against this ethos simply don't get invites to BG groups or instance runs. This will make limited difference to low to mid level players, but I bet when you need a group for any end game runs you'll find yourself as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit.

Not on my server though please, I actually like the satisfaction of surviving (plus the odd day when I really need to release some stress) :)

[bud]

first of all:

as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit

mwahahah, where the hell did you come up with that expression? it made my day :)

back on topic:

ganking = i don't do it, because by taking out a guy worn down by a mob, i know full well that i am upsetting someone. to me that is comparable to being a somewhat rude guy in real life. but after all it _is_ a pvp server and as someone had said, you have to grow eyes on the back of your head. in summary ganking is acceptable in my book, but i don't like it. switching to a pve ruleset (rp or not) is an accptable solution to griefing.

corpse camping: grrrr.... it is hard for me to express my feeling on corpse camping without losing control! it is equivalent to being a total jerk in real life. a camper is a total stranger, who is going out of his way to ruin another's day. that is not understandable at all. it is not normal, it is quite immoral. of course it is all a virtual world, but corpse-camping is as much an offense as a blacksmith running off with your mats is stealing. and afaik it is considered griefing by blizz. switching to pve is not the answer to corpse camping.

ps: can anyone confirm that blizz considers corpse camping as griefing or not.

[moopy]

Of course it's a choice, and of course some folks want to kill 'em all. That's up to them, and there's a choice of server style, so we can all play in a manner approximating that which we prefer.

However, there's a big difference between slaying someone and follwing them around reganking them endlessly. The latter class of people are just plain tedious.

Also, there's a little thrill about passing someone from the opposite faction, the tense, breathless pause as you get within range, and wonder if all heck is going to break loose. Sometimes it can actually be more thrilling when you salute each other and go about your business, the threat of violence almost more tangible than the violence itself.

Obviously, it's just not thrilling enough for my slightly pacifist nature though, I can't even remember the names of my toons on a PvP server off the top of my head :)

[WingedNazgul]

ps: can anyone confirm that blizz considers corpse camping as griefing or not.

http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowgm/?id=agm01654p&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2

Dishonorable Actions

Actions that would typically be considered "dishonorable" are considered appropriate actions in a PvP situation and will not be addressed by our Game Master (GM) staff. Dishonorable actions include, but are not limited to:

* Corpse camping.
* Tricking players into getting flagged for PvP (i.e. jumping in the middle of another player's area effect spell).
* Killing players well below your level.

I think that pretty much states Blizzard's view on corpse camping and other "dishonorable" actions.

[bud]

http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowgm/?id=agm01654p&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2



I think that pretty much states Blizzard's view on corpse camping and other "dishonorable" actions.


whoaa!.. i pretty much didn't expect that, and i am much disappointed (sp?).

[mesonm]

whoaa!.. i pretty much didn't expect that, and i am much disappointed (sp?).

I'm quite the opposite...and am glad that blizzard allows PvP to be just that...

If a player chooses to not want pvp, they can roll PvE, allowing them to avoid all corpose camping, hostile duels, etc., if they so desire.

Although I'll admit to hating being the recipient of a gank or two, it is part of the game.

Corpse camping does occur, but can generally be avoided through spirit res'ing...Not sure why folks don't use spirit res more often...I've never seen someone so organized as to have the corpse and the cemetary camped at the same time...

[Gainon]

Ya know, I often wondered why Blizz didn't anticipate the variety of PvP styles and implement a system where each server had an intended "flavor."

For example, when picking out a server, you now get the following info: Name, Type, Population. That's it.

What would be cool is if you could easily find out the A/H balance, the average level of "active" toons, and so on (I know there are sites, but is there a mod for this?) -- AND a pre-determined/recommended PvP style: something like "Honorable," "Anarchy," and "Utterly Psychotic."

Such styles would have some guidelines of what is considered "acceptable," but these definitely wouldn't be enforced, just used as a way to guide players toward other like-minded players. That way, if I want PvP but want to avoid gankers I choose an "Honorable" PvP server. If I don't mind the ganking once in a while, I choose an "Anarchy" PvP server. If my new job is full of bastards and I need to polish up on my paranoia skills, I'd create a toon on an "Utterly Psychotic" server. :happy53:

Of course, nothing would stop gankers and corpse campers from joining an "Honorable" server, but it would ideally make them less common, and easier to arrange a posse to take out when they get out of control.

Anyway, a guy can dream, can't he? :lol:

[brandondash]

Do you have a ganking ethic or do you attack everythink on sight?
You said it yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. As long as your wife is ok with getting her face pushed in by level 60s all day long, you shouldn't bust her chops about killing lowbies.

Personally I attack anything in sight that isn't ??. I suppose this would include lowbies if they were around but I always grind in zones higher than my level so it isn't an issue. The very best is finding two squishies that are both +1 or +2 from you and going 1v2. So far my record in that situation is 2-2-1. Then of course you have to dance with their corpse!

None of that matters though, because alliance are all scumbags anyway! :)

brandon-

[InTheNight]

You know I got a good chuckle out of this thread and here is why. I am betting that 90 percent of people (if not 100 percent who say ganking is not only OK its encouraged by Blizzard also say that you can only roll on items in an instance that not only you can use but also if it is more for your class (haven't figure this one out. For some reason Hunters aren't allowed to roll on Melee weapons. Now before someone pipes up and says "Well how would you like it if a warrior rolled on a bow or a gun", I am unaware of any skills that a warrior or a paladin have that can utilize a ranged weapon attack but a hunter has several skills that use melee ie wing clip, raptor strike, mongoose etc. Don't get me wrong need before greed and if a warrior or paly or a rogue for that matter needs an upgrade, I'd be ok but I have done a few instances even after the plates and rogues passed on need, still wouldn't let hunters roll on the item). Hmm strange a roll box pops up and for some reason Blizzard apparently made a mistake and allowed me to roll hmm. If you do roll on them, you get labeled a ninja or some other derogatory word.

You see there are some rules that are good to be established a bit of decency if you will even if the game mechanics say otherwise. Rogues are designed to stealth in a backstab someone so I ok with that as well as I am ok with NE who shadowmeld then fire. Its their ability and how they should use their skills to their fullest, but whacking someone who is grey and no chance of winning the fight, well no matter how you figure it, it's dumb. Yes I am all for getting the advantage in a fight but come on.

Ya, ya justify it any way you can but how in the world is that a challenge? I love the PvP aspect of being to go after folks anytime in contested area, that doesn't mean I want an unfair fight. I enjoy the challenge not a no contest win. I have gone after horde who are several levels higher and I'll be the first to admit I have lost more going that route but to me its more fun. That's what PvP is about, the challenge. But thats me. Yes I have gone after lower levels but if its grey, I don't want to waste my time unless I am defending another alliance. Now corpse camping, how truly pathetic. I mean I have far better things to do then simply keep stabbing a weak opponent. Now if you are camping a person only because they keep coming back and harassing you, well I can see that being ok and hopefully they grasp the futility of their tactic but that would be the only plausible reason.

The attitude I have decided to adopt is for every time I get ganked (ganking to me is when a well over level enemy attacks me, I am involved with a mob, a group of several enemies attack me without provication, or being attacked with less then 3/4 life), I shall now go forth and kill 10 lowbies who don't have a snowballs chance in hades of surving and make their life miserable.

[moopy]

Corpse camping does occur, but can generally be avoided through spirit res'ing...Not sure why folks don't use spirit res more often...

I would expect it's because all of the gear in your bags (with a durability rating) also suffers damage when you use a spirit healer, not just your equipped gear. It's a major pain in the wossname to go through repairing it all, not to mention expensive.

This is particularly galling when you try to put something on the AH, and have to trundle off to get the "Slightly camp cravat of the ferret" (or similarly irritating green) repaired, just so you can auction the darned thing.

Of course, some folks may just not know about the spirit healer. You can get all the way to the level cap without knowing very much at all about the game, I've noticed.

[norvilion]

I know Im gonna have someone say I belong on an RP server, but I think it's cool to play with a completely unique honor code.

As my Night elf druid I typically will just /wave or something to Tauren druids and hunters because they are the closest connected to nature and stuff (plus Tauren and NE druids are all happy together and stuff in Moonglade). I will KOS without regard for situation unded warlocks and rogues because they are the most unnatural (okay, so i just kill the roges cause they annoy me, Im on a horde dominated server)

As my Tauren Hunter I'm mostly friendly to Night elf priests and druids since they would be the most peaceful of a race the tauren (should) have no qualms with. I attck warlocks in the same way just because of the demented nature of the class.

Also my Night elf Druid hates cheese XD

[mesonm]

I would expect it's because all of the gear in your bags (with a durability rating) also suffers damage when you use a spirit healer, not just your equipped gear. It's a major pain in the wossname to go through repairing it all, not to mention expensive.

This is particularly galling when you try to put something on the AH, and have to trundle off to get the "Slightly camp cravat of the ferret" (or similarly irritating green) repaired, just so you can auction the darned thing.


Oh....baloney...Until I hit 50+, I could get well below 50% on durability, and still only cost a gold or less to repair...It may be annoying, but it EASY...and costs are not much...Even at lvl 56, and with more than half my gear being lvl 46+ blues, it costs just over 1g to repair, if below 50% durability.

I have 70 inventory slots, and carry just a few pieces of extra gear...a pair of gloves, a robe, boots, and a chest piece...But I do carry around too much stuff that doesn't have a durability rating...but it still generally costs less than 1g to repair (below lvl 50)...at just under 50%.

I suppose nonsquishies might have other expeiences...


Of course, some folks may just not know about the spirit healer. You can get all the way to the level cap without knowing very much at all about the game, I've noticed.

I believe this, and would tend to lean towards this as the primary reason many folks who talk about being camped for long periods never mention the spirit healer, or why they didn't use it...

(The above is not intended to be personal, but I do pleasantly and happily disagree...heh)

[bud]

it is not that corpse camping cannot be avoided. hell it is even easier than the spirit healer to just alt tab and check out the forums for like five mins.

it's just that i hate that mentality so much! *grr* and the fact that blizz does not consider it griefing is apalling.

[Lewisham]

I love the PvP aspect of being to go after folks anytime in contested area, that doesn't mean I want an unfair fight. I enjoy the challenge not a no contest win.

Quoted for truth.

That's why I switched from PvE to PvP. I like feeling that somewhere around the corner, something exciting is about to happen. If I die in two seconds, I don't find that very exciting, and I bet the ganker doesn't either.

I had a run in with a druid 4 levels higher than me. It was even a close cut thing. *That* was fun, although my loss was pretty inevitable.

I agree with Gainon, there should be extra PvP rules. Implement the dishonour system. Seriously. Implement it on some new PvP servers, and allow a complete character migration from any PvP server to the fully fleshed honour system. Let the gankers play their game, and let everyone else play PvP as it should be, challenge around every corner, not pointless death.

Chris

[maladroit2000]

I think people have different definitions of ganking here. I regard ganking as attacking a player who has virtually no chance of defending himself. For example: a player on low health; a player already fighting a monster; attacking a solo player with a group of attackers; attacking a player many levels below you.

A rogue stealthing and attacking a player of a similar or higher level cannot be considered ganking in my opinion. Why play on a pvp server at all if you don't like this?

[mesonm]

Implement the dishonour system. Seriously. Implement it on some new PvP servers, and allow a complete character migration from any PvP server to the fully fleshed honour system. Let the gankers play their game, and let everyone else play PvP as it should be, challenge around every corner, not pointless death.

Chris

I claim the honor system is already complete...heh...and I do play PvP as it should be...with constant challenge and excitement in all contested territories...

What you appear to want is the midground between PvP and PvE...I commend you for suggesting that the PvP servers remain just as they are...and agree that you should move to a diff. place having the features you like...

The question is...Are there anough of the 4+million players that want it, to justify the additional work and server(s) it entails...

If PvP was as bad as some characterize, I would have never been able to make it to 56...And, I'm sure I'll make it to 60 in the coming four weeks or so...Fortunately, as time marches on, there are fewer and fewer numbers of folks that can solo kill me....

[Lewisham]

The question is...Are there anough of the 4+million players that want it, to justify the additional work and server(s) it entails...

If PvP was as bad as some characterize, I would have never been able to make it to 56...And, I'm sure I'll make it to 60 in the coming four weeks or so...Fortunately, as time marches on, there are fewer and fewer numbers of folks that can solo kill me....

PvP isn't broken. I would like it different, but I don't think it is *broken*. And yeah, I'm talking about ganking in the lowbie vs level f**k ??. Rogues don't gank, they ambush ;)

I also don't think dishonour is that hard. I really don't. I know there are plenty of exploits and all this, but I feel they're more PvP logistics than they are honour problems. "Honourable" people wouldn't have these problems. The way I see it is that any person who recieved direct CP for killing a lowbie gets that CP negatively, doubled.

As Chris Rock once said, don't criminalise guns, criminalise bullets. I want to make sure I'm worth the gank :)

"Damn, he must have really hated that motherf**ker!"

Chris

[Rodigan]

Red is Dead was my motto in Gadgetzan.

I was selective with my targets, because I had a 4 minute timer inbetween vanishes.

Priority went to whoever I was most pissed off at.

Followed by whoever was highest rank/level.

But if I'd already killed them several times, I'd pass for the next highest rank/level.

If the only enemy in town was a non-HK, I'd sprint away in the middle of the stunlock (Grey level trumps Red Tag, so they lived). Sorry to say, sometimes that last hit before I ran away would crit, and they had to make ONE short walk through black and white land.


One more thing, PvP Honor is far from perfect. It makes me sick that it is completely geared to limit competitive pvp to battlegrounds.

[Eiger]

ganking = i don't do it, because by taking out a guy worn down by a mob, i know full well that i am upsetting someone. to me that is comparable to being a somewhat rude guy in real life. but after all it _is_ a pvp server and as someone had said, you have to grow eyes on the back of your head. in summary ganking is acceptable in my book, but i don't like it. switching to a pve ruleset (rp or not) is an accptable solution to griefing.

corpse camping: grrrr.... it is hard for me to express my feeling on corpse camping without losing control! it is equivalent to being a total jerk in real life. a camper is a total stranger, who is going out of his way to ruin another's day. that is not understandable at all. it is not normal, it is quite immoral. of course it is all a virtual world, but corpse-camping is as much an offense as a blacksmith running off with your mats is stealing. and afaik it is considered griefing by blizz. switching to pve is not the answer to corpse camping.

ps: can anyone confirm that blizz considers corpse camping as griefing or not.

I'm sorry but I just think it's kind of pointless to discuss this stuff. PvP servers are set up to provide this kind of gameplay. There are no ethics - just might makes right.

I like one guy's comment about the tension when a member of the opposite faction approaches on the road - what's going to happen as you pass? That's pretty cool.

But these servers are set up for dog eat dog play. Just like in the real world - do you kick a guy when he's down? Heck yes - that's when he's most likely to die and not kill you.

If you don't like getting ganked or would propose to put rules in about how it's done or what's honorable, I'd recommend playing on a PvE server. PvP servers aren't about honor, they're about killing the other faction.

[Raistlin Majere]

I know Im gonna have someone say I belong on an RP server, but I think it's cool to play with a completely unique honor code.

As my Night elf druid I typically will just /wave or something to Tauren druids and hunters because they are the closest connected to nature and stuff (plus Tauren and NE druids are all happy together and stuff in Moonglade). I will KOS without regard for situation unded warlocks and rogues because they are the most unnatural (okay, so i just kill the roges cause they annoy me, Im on a horde dominated server)

As my Tauren Hunter I'm mostly friendly to Night elf priests and druids since they would be the most peaceful of a race the tauren (should) have no qualms with. I attck warlocks in the same way just because of the demented nature of the class.

Also my Night elf Druid hates cheese XD

That is the best thing I love about the RP-PvP. I have a Alliance hunter and druid. when it comes to questing, Hunters and druids most of the times leave eachother alone, or sometimes work together.

[WingedNazgul]

If you don't like getting ganked or would propose to put rules in about how it's done or what's honorable, I'd recommend playing on a PvE server. PvP servers aren't about honor, they're about killing the other faction.

The truth and the best advice. Now, really, how is this non-constructive?

[Eskodas]

A human warrior decided to have a pop at me while I was grinding last night, down to about 20% health before he waded in. My first thought was he was coming to help, him being 4 levels below me I'd pretty much ignored him up to then.

I could imagine his brain working away, excited to be taking down a rogue when all of a sudden my mob dies and I ding. Full health, full energy, his pants full of something.

Well now being 5 levels above him I took him apart pretty quickly, and though I didn't camp his corpse I did make a point of killing him every chance I got - which was untill he cleared off. Yes it was ganking, and no it wasn't exactly a test of skill, but trust me it felt righteous.

In fact the last time I killed him was when he was attacking someone several levels below him ;)

[mesonm]

A human warrior decided to have a pop at me while I was grinding last night, down to about 20% health before he waded in. My first thought was he was coming to help, him being 4 levels below me I'd pretty much ignored him up to then.

I could imagine his brain working away, excited to be taking down a rogue when all of a sudden my mob dies and I ding. Full health, full energy, his pants full of something.

Well now being 5 levels above him I took him apart pretty quickly, and though I didn't camp his corpse I did make a point of killing him every chance I got - which was untill he cleared off. Yes it was ganking, and no it wasn't exactly a test of skill, but trust me it felt righteous.

In fact the last time I killed him was when he was attacking someone several levels below him ;)

Nice! I had forgotten that you get full health etc., as you lvl up.

I was on last night (56 mage) with a 49 rogue friend of mine when we went into Un'goro crater...I was just there to help in case my rogue friend had trouble with the 53's and up...(he seems to kill 52's just fine...)

As we entered the crater, he was ahead of me, and was hit by an nme 48 palli who must have thought he could take on my friend and win...until he saw me...

I froze him in place, and started dancing...he tried to run...and I used a cold snap and then froze him again....as my friend laughed...Then...my friend lost it and...the poor nme died....
===========================
Now, me on the receiving end...LOL

Last weekend...

I was on my first venture to Burning Steppes when I FINALLY found the fp...just as I saw a 60 alli priest coming out of the cave...He waved to me, and then (BAM!) mind controlled me to make me dance, jump around, etc....(I thought he might want to make me hit a guard...not a good scene) When I thought he was done, his 60 friend (can't recall the class) came out of the cave also, /slapped me, and laughed...They fortunately then waved, mounted, and ran off. phew!

[moopy]

I was on my first venture to Burning Steppes when I FINALLY found the fp...just as I saw a 60 alli priest coming out of the cave...He waved to me, and then (BAM!) mind controlled me to make me dance, jump around, etc....(I thought he might want to make me hit a guard...not a good scene) When I thought he was done, his 60 friend (can't recall the class) came out of the cave also, /slapped me, and laughed...They fortunately then waved, mounted, and ran off. phew!

Is it wrong of me to laugh helplessly at the image that this conjures up? Wonderful stuff, and far more imaginative than common or garden ganking..

[brandondash]

A few days back I was grinding my 22 undead priest in Hillsbrad when a mounted warrior and mounted rogue ran up to me. I knew I was more or less dead if they wanted me to be, so I started to dance with the warrior. He danced back. The rogue cheered me. I was the hit of the party!

Then a 60 mage rolled by and nuked me.

:[

brandon-

[mesonm]

A few days back I was grinding my 22 undead priest in Hillsbrad when a mounted warrior and mounted rogue ran up to me. I knew I was more or less dead if they wanted me to be, so I started to dance with the warrior. He danced back. The rogue cheered me. I was the hit of the party!

Then a 60 mage rolled by and nuked me.

:[

brandon-

Dang...smoked priest...not a good scene...

You were lvl 22 in Hillsbrad? I thought that was a bit low for that area...I've done it, but only with a 40+ buddy...

Even the turtles at TM are 30ish, as I recall.

[Lewisham]

22 is common for Horde, 30ish for Alliance. Fortunately, Horde quests are in places Alliance quests aren't.

Chris

[Hateblade]

Basically, it breaks down to this. PVP. Player Vs Player. Period. That's what you are there for. The quests and goals are there to lvl you up, so you can kill people more efficently. Now, whoever thought up the term "ganking" is a sissy. Period. I don't care if you are level 1-??. If I see you, and you are flagged, ima do my damnedest to see you eat dirt. That's what it's about. That's why it's a GAME. Granted Corpse-Camping is kinda lame, but big deal. Run away, or call a buddy to come bail you out. If you can't take the heat, get out of the fire. Go roll a PVE server, and stop complaining about something that IS NOT going to change. All you do is take up forum space.

Thank you, and have a nice day. :happy34:

[owlx]

I used to live by the "top gun" do not fire until fired upon rule............well to heck with that. After the gankfest that I was involved in last week........I'll attack anything, anytime, anywhere.

[Hrungnir]

PVP just means you *can* kill other players at any moment. It doesn't mean you should be a jerk.

It's like the people who play GTA just to screw hookers and then murder them. I seriously worry about those people, because that activity is psychopathic, and that's not even a game like WoW where the people you're screwing over are ACTUAL PEOPLE on the other side of the computer.

I like PVP for the heightened sense of realism and danger. Yes, anyone you meet can kill you. It makes you play differently, and makes the game a lot more challenging, interesting, and real.

But a PVP server is basically an elementary school with no timeouts for people who get into fights. Does that mean that you SHOULD beat the crap out of the nerdy kids constantly just because you can? I know I won't play with anyone who griefs like that. It just makes me wish sometimes that I could take out people of my own faction for behavior like that.

I don't care what you say about "that's how a pvp server works," if you're corpse camping, killing newbies, or ganking someone who is about to complete their quest and is at 10% life, you aren't "playing the game," you're being a jerk, and if I met you in real life I'd honestly want to punch you in the face, never do business with you, etc. It's dishonorable, assinine, and pointlessly cruel to some other person who is playing the game the same as you are. PVP is there for the challenge, for the un-carebearish thrill that passes through you every time you see incoming RED because you don't know how many they are and how challenging the next couple minutes of your life is going to be. It isn't about throwing kids into the mud and laughing at them, which is the closest real life analogy I can think of to killing lowbies.

Stop being jerks, really. The game's no fun if you can't wander around Durotar without a level 60 friend watching your back.

[mesonm]

and that's not even a game like WoW where the people you're screwing over are ACTUAL PEOPLE on the other side of the computer.



Please stop trying to personalize this...I treat all alli the same...I am killing a GAME CHARACTER....not a person. Do you wander town in RL with a sword and possibly armor, wand, etc.? I doubt it...It is a GAME...



Stop being jerks, really. The game's no fun if you can't wander around Durotar without a level 60 friend watching your back.


Pehaps your definition of jerk, and mine are different...

On a PvP server....

If you are in Durotar as Horde, NOBODY can kill you unless you first fire at an nme...thus setting your PvP flag.

If you are in Durotar as an alli, you are voluntarily in ENEMY territory, and thus are FAIR GAME to all comers...at all levels.

If a lvl 60 needs to watch your back in Durotar, then you (an alli) are either in nme territory, or you (a Horde) screwed up...

Also, please tell me what it is when the 60 doesn't get fired on, but is supposedly there 'to support you'...? Under your rule, he can't help if the person attacking you is 40 or below, right? Otherwise, isn't the 60 a ganker at that point, under your definition?

Are you on the right server? If you are alli in Durotar and don't want to be messed with, I hope you rolled PvE.

If you are horde in Durotar and need the 60 to follow you around, please stop firing on enemies you cannot possibly kill.

[brandondash]

that activity is psychopathic, and that's not even a game like WoW where the people you're screwing over are ACTUAL PEOPLE on the other side of the computer.
Actually I rather relish the thought of killing you over and over and over so that in real life you eventually hammer-fist your mouse into little bits and have to spend your lunch hour the next day at Best Buy getting a new one.

it's a great time!

brandon-

[WingedNazgul]

I don't care what you say about "that's how a pvp server works," if you're corpse camping, killing newbies, or ganking someone who is about to complete their quest and is at 10% life, you aren't "playing the game," you're being a jerk, and if I met you in real life I'd honestly want to punch you in the face,

Yes, that sounds like a completely healthy, non-psychopathic individual to me. :scared:

[Havoc Jack]

I play a druid on a PvP server.

That thing about druids not attacking druids? Half the people do it for the whole nature bit. The other half do it because of the very real realization that druid vs druid fights will take forever. Assuming that both druids involved know what they're doing.

Before you gank someone, always check their name and guild. If it's Gankomatic from the guild "Kills on Sight" then he's practically begging for it.

If they attack you, they're also asking for it.

I was in the shimmering flats once at level 60. A pair of rogues (33 and 39) tried to kill me off. So I took them out. I was perfectly fine with letting them quest, but apparently they wern't. The worst part was when the 33 tried to vanish and escape. I mean, at level 60 I could still see him halfway across the flats. I finished him off.

Now here's a fun one: if they're killing the creeps and not skinning them, then odds are I'll lend a moonfire, so long as they don't object to me skinning their corpses.

And if I see a grey leveled undead rogue (I'm alliance, by the way), I'll send him a personal "Screw You!" in the form of faerie fire.

[Eskodas]

Which takes us full circle....I know some people take it as a dig but if you only want to PvP on your own terms and want to quest in peace then go on a PvE server, for those that are fed up with needless ganking (ie no honor points) then I can sympathise but there are things you can do to limit it.

I got royally fed up with PvP when the honor system first came out (pre BG) so I rolled on PvE and enjoyed it. I then decided I wanted the challenge of levelling while looking over my shoulder and came back to PvP and have enjoyed every minute since. Sure I get ganked like you wouldn't believe some nights, and yes it seriously get on my nipples sometimes, but it's part and parcel of the server we choose to play on.

This doesn't mean being a knob is ok, but if I'll get honor off you, or you try and nail me, then I'll hit you every opportunity I get.

To the poster that says he'd hit someone in RL, well sorry son but you really need to put the game away and get some fresh air. If it means that much to you I'd suggest you play something less stimulating.

[triqui]

Imo, the _only_ point of rolling in a pvp server is to be able to enter in non-consensual combat. Otherwise, pve servers offer the same, and ussually less queues -lag :P

So my point is: if you wont start non-consensual combat, and you wont like to be attacked in non-consensual combat, why roll pvp? Really... why? You only want to attack and be attacked when you and your oponent are ready... thats what happen in pve servers, honestly, GO pve... it is not "less honorable" or make you " a carebear". But if you go into a pvp server, you go there for the SOLE PURPOSE of being able to enter non-consensual combat. Is the only real difference with a pve server...

I dont attack *everything* that moves. Mainly becouse sometimes i have other interests (like i went there to mine, and dont want to start a pvp war to be able to mine, or farm, quest, etc). BUT if i cross with someone in his horse and i have time to spare, ill attack him.

I dont attack grey targets, however, for the simple reason i find it a loss of time... they dont give me honor, so whats the point?

[Hrungnir]

Guess I got a little carried away. I do that sometimes when I rant.

I guess when it comes down to it, it isn't what you can and can't do in game, it's how moral do you consider this action in general. I like PVP because it gives you that freedom to decide, and causes a lot of more interesting social interaction because of it, such as never travelling alone, or the call to arms that goes up when you do see a marauding party.

But still, that doesn't mean that I want to just tolerate behavior that can only be described as plain mean. Leaving aside killing newbies (which I mostly consider lame) or killing someone while they're involved with a mob (which I would argue takes no skill, and therefore has no payoff), let's look at corpse camping. Someone is taking a half hour or an hour out of their day JUST to piss off someone else. If someone does that in real life, what do we call them? A jerk? Someone you don't want to hang around with? But in PVP it's all just "part of the game."

The problem is that when some people lose consequences, they lose all sense of personal dignity or consideration. If you spent an hour of your life trying to make mine miserable, yes, I would say you deserved to get your butt whooped, because the real consequences of that keep you from doing it all the time in real life.

When I'm actually playing, I leave it as "just another idiot in the game," spirit rez, and go on with something else I need to do. But if I knew you in real life, I'd still think you were a jerk.

[Trooogdooor]

k I started playing alliance on a rp server.... now I play on dark iron server (PVP!!!!!!!!!1111oneZOMG) and yeah I kill t3h alliance nubzorz the seconds I see them STUNLOCK FTW!!!!!!mace rogues own

[OverKill]

If anything I think that the PvP servers are too carebear. You can't attack enemies if they're in their territory? What the crap!?

PvP means you should be able to attack anyone you want, whenever you want to. The add a GOOD Dishonor system (Blizzard's sucks right now) and much better town gaurds.

[bud]

i guess what people don't realize is that this thread is not about what you _can_ and _can't_ do on PvP servers, but about what you _should_ and _shouldn't_ do.

naturally what you should/shouldn't do is not about game mechanics but about moral choices, and character choices.

as Hrungnir has beatifully explained, there are real people behind those toons and gankers are considered jerks by those real people. and there is no way around that. of course it should be noted that whether a pvp kill is a gank or not _does_ depend on circumstances. for example killing a low level enemy is usually considered ganking, but it is very much in the realm of possibility that the said kill was well deserved.

anyways what i think is that blizz should go ahead and implement a dishonor system. the system will probably not be perfect. but it really doesnt have to be. is the current honor system perfect? no. but it really is working well enough, a complimentary dishonor system should soon be added.

and don't worry you can kill those that deserve it (or you can still continue to be a jerk, if that is the case) after a dishonor system gets implement, after all i don't think that the penalties will be too harsh!

at worst you will not get to advance in ranks as fast as you would like to, when DK's start give negative CP's. but then again, those ranks are HONOR ranks!!

[OverKill]

There is nothing you shouldn't do besides cheat and stalk.

Stalking a character with another account spying on that person to know exactly where he is so your gank account kills him no matter where... that's bad.

Everything that's not horrible horrible nazi grieving is ok. In a PvP server it's to be expected. I don't do it much but I think there are almost no grieving "ethics" or at least shouldn't be.

If you can't get away from a corpse camper for like 10+ deaths there's something horribly wrong with you. No matter what class you play it's easy to get away before you die too much. Really... there's so many morons out there.
I was corpse camping this guy who kept rezing right by his dead body like 25 times in a row... Never tried to rez in cover (there was plenty) and was just a plain moron.

Stupid people don't deserve mercy.


I'm pro-grieve as long as it's not to an insane extent and it's not against a stupid person. Also I'm against extreme lowbie ganking like sneaking into a n00b zone. The Dishonor System done right (which it's not) would take care of that...

That's why they need SuperPvP servers to give the grievers heaven.

[Lewisham]

In a PvP server it's to be expected...
I was corpse camping this guy...Stupid people don't deserve mercy.

:chinny:

That says more about you than the PvP ruleset.

Chris

[brandondash]

:chinny:
That says more about you than the PvP ruleset.
Chris
Yeah it says he is TEH LEET CAMPX0R MAN

[TaoJin]

My in-game ethics are:
- I won't attack Horde 7 or 8 lvl's lower then me, unless they attack first. I even wait for like a nano second to see wether or not they made a mistake :P
- I never ever corpse camp. Hate it when it's done to me, shall not do it onto another!

What I WILL do is Ambush (yes I'm a Rogue) a drinking UD mage, 'cause I really really hate em :D! Drinking enemies will get you 100% crit and I love that! It's PvP, drinking in a hostile territory without looking around you, or searching for cover WILL get you killed! Also when a Horde is attacking one single mob, I'll attack! Somehow this doesn't seem all too unethical too me seeing as, again, the Horde character should pay attention to his/her surroundings. And well, me being stealthed and sneaky and all, ok, that would suck for that character. But that's just what a rogue does isn't it?

All and all ganking sucks, but live with it. If a 12 yo feels all powerfull because he/she ganks you, so be it! I agree with one of the earlier remarks that if you can't res at a safe place (most of the time it is possible) then you're doing something wrong. Just log off then for 10 minutes and the ganker will get tired with it and find someone else to annoy. Or just get one of your higher lvl guildies (if present) to kick some ass or do a shoutout in the Defense channel :) I've always gotten help from some higher lvl chars because ganking is something that resolves itself most of the time. Everybody has been ganked at one time or the other and wants to repay the debt whenever possible to a ganker when you yourself are of a high enough lvl! The ganker will get ganked and probably won't be doing it for some time.

Those are my thoughts on this issue:)

[triqui]

.... If someone does that in real life, what do we call them? A jerk? Someone you don't want to hang around with? But in PVP it's all just "part of the game."
If someone punch someother we call him a jerk. But in a Ring, we call him a Boxer. Yes, THERE IS a difference. Boxers enter ring knowing rules. PvP players do also.

[OverKill]

If you can do it and it's not cheating or against the rules... THEN DO IT!

There are no pvp ethics. Every man, woman, child, baby and old person for themself!

[FourthForseti]

If someone punch someother we call him a jerk. But in a Ring, we call him a Boxer. Yes, THERE IS a difference. Boxers enter ring knowing rules. PvP players do also.

Exactly. Thats why theres PVE servers...

[Hrungnir]

A championship boxer fights OTHER championship-level boxers. He doesn't fight a guy fresh out of his first boxing class unless the newbie challenges him. He also doesn't stand around kicking the guy in the crotch (corpse-camping) after he's beaten him.

That's the difference between what I consider good PVP play and ganking.

[brandondash]

There are no pvp ethics. Every man, woman, child, baby and old person for themself!
EAT THE BABIES.

[Mort]

If you can do it and it's not cheating or against the rules... THEN DO IT!

There are no pvp ethics. Every man, woman, child, baby and old person for themself!

So just so we all understand each other OverKill: You would, at every chance you get, cheat in deals, ninja loot, steal veins/herbs/chests and basicly do anything that wont get you a warning from a GM (or getting banned)?

Because thats what you just said. In your world, everything and anything apparently goes. Could you please state your character name(s) and server(s), just so everyone can stay clear of you.

Seriously, people. Here I go away for a few days, and when I come back, this thread has degenerated in a big way.

OK, we'll take this one more time, for the slow people in the back:

1. There are real people behind every character! You can ignore that all you want, but its a fact. If you want to go crazy and kill every mob you find, be my guest, but killing player characters is not entirely the same.

2. Just because you can, does not me you have to! Like I said, it is not against the rules to cheat in trades or ninja loot, yet most people consider that immoral.

3. The pro-ethics people (most of us anyway) here dont want to play on a PvE server. We want the thrill of a random PvP encounter. We like noticing an enemy closing, wondering if he will attack or not. And we like behind able to attack an (equal) enemy on sight should we so choose, regardless of what he/she has to say on the subject. What we do not like is a lvl 60 riding in on an epic mount, taking 5 seconds to kill us, and then riding on, leaving us the run back to the corpse, and possibly loosing progress on whatever quest we we're working on. Like som people here have stated, a PvP-light server would be nice, one that had a dishonor system in place.

My personal take on it: I like PvP-servers. I like the thrill, the uncertainty, and the "good" PvP. Good PvP is in my opinion when I can win or loose, and still get something out of it. If I win, I know I earned it, and if I loose, I learned something I can use next time.

Things one can learn: "When fighting a spellcaster, use hamstring.", "Dont fight mobs close to the road, you never know who will show up.", "Remember to keep an eye on that succumbus." and so on. But if you kill a low level player, have you realy earned it? And what is there to be learned from getting ganked? "Next time, dont let the lvl 60 hunter on the epic mount catch up with you", "Remember to use forst nova, because it would not have had any effect at all."

But we know the rules. We know that on a PvP server, ganking is alowed, just like cheating and ninjaing, but dont expect us to like it, or the people doing it. And there is nothing wrong with us asking people to constrain themselves.

[brandondash]

So just so we all understand each other OverKill: You would, at every chance you get, cheat in deals, ninja loot, steal veins/herbs/chests and basicly do anything that wont get you a warning from a GM (or getting banned)?
I can't speak for Overkill, but personally the parallel you are trying to draw is completely invalid. Those things will still earn you a negative stigma among your teammates. Killing the opposing faction never will.

Could you please state your character name(s) and server(s), just so everyone can stay clear of you.
It's right there in my forum avatar and info.

Seriously, people. Here I go away for a few days, and when I come back, this thread has degenerated in a big way.
If by "degenerate" you mean "people have spoken who don't share your opinion".

1. There are real people behind every character!
...and thank god for that! This game would be hellishly boring if I was just killing the computer over and over.

2. Just because you can, does not me you have to!
Everyone knows this. People do it because they like it.

Like I said, it is not against the rules to cheat in trades or ninja loot, yet most people consider that immoral.
Disagree. If "most" people thought griefing was immoral, there wouldn't be such an insane amount of griefing going on. Secondly, you are being extremely pretentious in applying a moral code to behavior in a video game. When somebody kills you in WoW, what have you really lost? What have you really lost? You have lost a few minutes out of your day. I have yet to hear the teachings of any spirital or religious leader make mention of wasting time as a damnable offense. If anything, they would tell you to stop playing WoW in the first place and go help at the soup kitchens.

3. The pro-ethics people (most of us anyway) here dont want to play on a PvE server. We want the thrill of a random PvP encounter.
Interesting thought... so what happens when you are attacked and are at a disadvantage and then win anyway. Isn't that so much more rewarding? Have you ever killed a ?? level player when they attack you? It is possible, and I guarantee you that you won't forget it. Same goes when you get double teamed and still win. After the fight you are so excited you can hardly keep your mouse still. It's happened to me and it's the highlight of my pvp career to this point. I wouldn't have had it in your world.

Like som people here have stated, a PvP-light server would be nice, one that had a dishonor system in place.
There have been pages and pages and pages explaining why a dishonor system wouldn't work.

My personal take on it: I like PvP-servers. I like the thrill, the uncertainty, and the "good" PvP.
You may not like it, but the fact remains that many people disagree with your idea of "good" pvp.

But if you kill a low level player, have you realy earned it? And what is there to be learned from getting ganked? "Next time, dont let the lvl 60 hunter on the epic mount catch up with you", "Remember to use forst nova, because it would not have had any effect at all."
How about "Quest closer to town if possible", "Always always always be looking around in all directions at all times even in mid fight, then cut and run if you see red", "Ask when you zone in where any ganking may be happening, then adjust your nightly activities accordingly".

Btw frost nova can stick to a level 60. Not likely, but definitely possible.

but dont expect us to like it, or the people doing it. And there is nothing wrong with us asking people to constrain themselves.
So ask. The thread was started to discuss the ethics of ganking. You make it sound like we do nothing but shout you down when in fact most of us are expressing our dissenting opinions.

brandon-

[OverKill]

So just so we all understand each other OverKill: You would, at every chance you get, cheat in deals, ninja loot, steal veins/herbs/chests and basicly do anything that wont get you a warning from a GM (or getting banned)?



That's where I stopped reading.

[triqui]

A championship boxer fights OTHER championship-level boxers. He doesn't fight a guy fresh out of his first boxing class unless the newbie challenges him. He also doesn't stand around kicking the guy in the crotch (corpse-camping) after he's beaten him.

That's the difference between what I consider good PVP play and ganking.

Really? i have seen some Tyson vs UnknownguyfromUcrania lasting 30 secs. And the point stand valid. Boxers cant hit someone below its waist, for example. I cant hit noone in Ellwynn forest. Boxers however use anything they have and is allowed by rules/referee. So do pvpers....

I DONT do grieffing like killing lvl 30s. BUT if my alt gets ganked, i JUST corpserun.

And to be honest, from every 100 times i had died while leveling, 90 of them have been against a MOB. Once got ganked by a roaming ?? elite dragon in tarren mill. Such honorless computer... :chinny:

Those of you who like "good" pvp :whistle: reroll pve, seriously. You CAN and WILL have pvp on pve servers. I was in pve server in beta, and we got a few (i liked it so much i took pvp) When people attack cities for example, or in Battlegrounds. PvP servers are free for all. You WONT be attacked everytime you see a enemy. But you CAN be attacked and you WILL be attacked sometimes when you dont like to pvp right at that moment (either becouse you are facing sure defeat, couse you are questing, grinding, or just heading to town)

Btw: Doomsayer, european server Kor'gall (dunno exactly what Mort needs this for...)

[Mort]

OK, maybe I went a little overboard with my last post, but my point still stands: Something not being against the rules does not imply that it is "morally" acceptable. Ofcourse, not being against the rules means that is its left up to the individual and/or community do decide how to act. I reacted to OverKills post because he seemed to be under the impression that anything that does not go against the rules is "OK", something that I, and I think most others, disagrees with (and the name and server part was directed soley at him). And btw, killing the opposite faction could indeed give a negative stigma with other players, on both sides of the fence.

So ask. The thread was started to discuss the ethics of ganking. You make it sound like we do nothing but shout you down when in fact most of us are expressing our dissenting opinions.

In a sense, that is what often (allways?) happen in these kinds of threads. It often feels like every other response is a "Go play on a PvE/RP server" type of response. I wish it was that simple, I realy do. But its not. Not for me, and not for alot of other people either. I have played on a PvE server, and I didnt like it very much simply because it felt very limiting.

I have nothing against other peoples opinions. What I do have something against is when people dont realy listen to what others are saying, and when it allways seems to come back to "play on a PvE/RP server"-responses. And also, it gets realy tiering to be called a variaty of things (like extremely pretentious) whenever this topic comes up. Just like free-for-all PvPers (for lack of a better term), I have a certain way I like to PvP, and that does not include ganking. I just dont understand why people have to object to that.

[Palm]

Mort I think you have to admit, in all fairness, that there isn't a consensus about ganking the way there is with, say, calling a false need. I doubt there is even any kind of majority towards it. It has been demonstrated time and time again that players can enforce their own rules quite effectively when there is sufficient will to do so. Some people think it's rude, unethical but just as many, if not more, think it's cool and fun to do. So what's the point? Things are what they are, not what you want them to be.

[Mort]

Yes, that is unfortunatly very true.

However, I think that the reason that ganking is not generaly more frowned upon is atleast partialy because of the fact that communication between the ganker and the ganking victim is not possible. Nor is it possible (aside from a post on the realm forum) to inform the gankers own faction of his behavior. So I suppose it is atleast possible that part of the reason ganking is more common than for example cheating in trades is because the ganker can more easily distance himself from his victim.

But thats beside the point. No, your right Palm, the consensus on PvP servers may very well be "Red is dead", I just consider that unfortunate.

[Palm]

However, I think that the reason that ganking is not generaly more frowned upon is atleast partialy because of the fact that communication between the ganker and the ganking victim is not possible. Nor is it possible (aside from a post on the realm forum) to inform the gankers own faction of his behavior.Hehe. Don't kid yourself. I also play this MUD called MUME which is PVP free for all... Crossrace communication is commonplace, players read and post logs of their game sessions and everything is known (small community). Now we're talking about a pretty mature player base here, the game is not PVP oriented (just has race war pvp) and 9 times out of 10 if people can kill you they will. Level 100 on 1 and I'd give you 50/50 that they gac (/get all corpse) you. Some people will even try to sun-kill (permanent death) trolls and you dont see half the whining you see in this thread. Most people will do is add people to their black lists for no mercy treatment. Slaughtering outnumbered enemy players, looting and burning corpses you name it. Just about the only thing frowned upon is killing someone with AFK up and even that can be justified in some cases - overall very nice people though.

[Hrungnir]

What have I lost? A little time, a little annoyance.

What I wonder about is what did the person gain? Wow, you can kill someone twenty levels lower than you, aren't you a big man. And that took a lot of skill, killing me in one hit when the mobs had me down to 10%.

What's the gain? Honestly? It's doing something that is at worst cruel and at best annoying just for... what? Does it amuse you to waste other people's time? And what does that say about someone who likes to spend their time in a game just trying to annoy someone they've never met?

[triqui]

Yes, that is unfortunatly very true.

However, I think that the reason that ganking is not generaly more frowned upon is atleast partialy because of the fact that communication between the ganker and the ganking victim is not possible.
when 1337 speak was allowed, lot of people comnumicated. Most used macro was | \/\/ | |\|, |\| 0 0 |3 !!!!!. Now it is /spit.

So i doubt communication will help anything but the ganker mockering on his victim and the following flamewar...

Nor is it possible (aside from a post on the realm forum) to inform the gankers own faction of his behavior. So I suppose it is atleast possible that part of the reason ganking is more common than for example cheating in trades is because the ganker can more easily distance himself from his victim.

Really you have to try to see it from the ganker's /free for all pvper perspective. Most common answer to a "XXX ganked me" whine post in a realm forum is MROE DRAMA!!1 , followed by a "reroll pve". You make 2 wrong assumptions , imho. 1st, you assume ganker's faction will react badly against him. 2nd you assume ganker cares a **** what his faction thinks about him.

Lets put it in some other example ok? I eat meat. I dont feel myself bad for eat meat. I _DO_ belieave humans are carnivores, and i _DO_ like meat. Now you are vegetarian. You can try to convince me about how un-ethical is to eat meat. But know what? in my own moral code, humans eating meat arent different than lions eating meat, therefore im not doing nothing un-natural AND i am in my right to eat meat. So you wont convince me about how bad meat is just using terms like "moral code" or "ethics". I _DO_ have ethics. But in my ethics, eating meat isnt bad, i dont care if you are vegatarian, good for you, but i am _NOT_ and im _NOT_ doing nothing wrong or un-ethical, so i wont change.

Now change "eat meat " for "gank".
To be honest, i would had rolled in a RP server, but they werent pvp-RP servers at the moment. I felt that RP servers were STUPID. "oh look, a undead warlock is killing poor farmers in tarren mill with the help of his summoned demon! Lets kill him, im a paladin! no wait... i cant...". They are the enemy. This isnt world of DUELcraft.

[Palm]

Really you have to try to see it from the ganker's /free for all pvper perspective. Most common answer to a "XXX ganked me" whine post in a realm forum is MROE DRAMA!!1 , followed by a "reroll pve". You make 2 wrong assumptions , imho. 1st, you assume ganker's faction will react badly against him. 2nd you assume ganker cares a **** what his faction thinks about himThe truth is nobody cares. No rules = law of the jungle = survival of the fitest.

[triqui]

The truth is nobody cares. No rules = law of the jungle = survival of the fitest.
There ARE rules. Rules are: you cant attack a non-flagged player unless he flag himself or attacks you. To flag yourself, there are several options:

1-Using /flag
2-attacking a player
3-attacking a NPC
4-Healing or buffing a Flagged character
5-on PVP servers, entering on contested zones

I have never killed no one against the rules.

[Palm]

By no rules I meant loose rules, i.e free for all, in most zones at least, on pvp servers. Obviously there are some rules. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Mort]

The truth is nobody cares.

Well, some people care, or else threads like this wouldnt exist, but I get your point.

Really you have to try to see it from the ganker's /free for all pvper perspective. Most common answer to a "XXX ganked me" whine post in a realm forum is MROE DRAMA!!1 , followed by a "reroll pve". You make 2 wrong assumptions , imho. 1st, you assume ganker's faction will react badly against him. 2nd you assume ganker cares a **** what his faction thinks about him.

A little while back there were a thread made on my realm forum by a horde who was complaining about a lvl 60 dwarf (hunter I think) who was running around Stonetalon (and close to Sun Rock Retreat) repeatetly killing every horde player he came across. Ofcourse there were the usualy "Go play on a PvP/RP server"-responses, but as the thread progressed, more horde added accounts about this guy, and it became clear this had been going on for over a week. Higher lvl horde had tried to chase him of, but he allways came back. Alot of people felt that he was making it realy hard to quest in the area. This thread received support not only from horde, but also from many alliance players, who felt that this guy had gone way to far. Some said they would talk to this guy, and try to get him to lay of. I dont know what happened in this particular case, but it does show that a faction can care when someone ganks. Wether or not the ganker cares about that is a different issue ofcourse :)

[OverKill]

Ganking for a week is an obvious "too much" time. Going and ganking for an hour or something isn't IMO. I've taken my 60 on gank parties in Ashenvale and usually brought like 10ish guild members. We'd gank for an hour or two and take over the alliance town then as soon as it became too much (insane alliance reinforcements) we'd leave and maybe PvP somewhere else a week later.

"Ganking" is part of the PvP experience. Wheeeeeeeee!!!

[Volja]

Depends what im mood im in, but im probably the most carebear person you will ever find on a PvP server. I find it more satisfying to get *ganked* (god, i hate that word) and still win the battle.

[cyradis2003]

let's look at corpse camping. Someone is taking a half hour or an hour out of their day JUST to piss off someone else. If someone does that in real life, what do we call them? A jerk? Someone you don't want to hang around with? But in PVP it's all just "part of the game."




Randomguy is killed by Corpsecamper
Randomguy begins casting "Make Sandwich"
CorpseCamper is defeated by Sandwich

I don't like campers and I don't personally camp (unless there is a general outcry that the person had been camping or griefing) but it is part of being on a PVP server. I accept it as a fact of daily existance that if I am killed that I will possibly be camped. If it happens I release and run back to my body then either log out and grab another char or if I go and grab a soda or make a sandwich or call a friend or whatever.

NOT BEFORE putting a call out to General chat that we have a lvl zz camper located at xxxxxxx named yyyyyyy. The higher levels love to gank campers I have noticed. In return if I am passing through an area and I see reports of griefing I will join the crowd to go kill the person, whether they are too high or too low they brought themselves to the attention of the reion and they will likely be made to pay for it.

I like to attack people, I don't mind if they are higher or lower than me, it is just fun :surprise: Nothing personal, just good times. Of course it is a little lame to deliberately hunt lowbies, much more fun to just kill em when they get too close. Think of higher levels like a tiger in a cage ... if you wander over to take a look you had best hope that the door is locked :winky47:

[triqui]

[QUOTE=MortA little while back there were a thread made on my realm forum by a horde who was complaining about a lvl 60 dwarf (hunter I think) who was running around Stonetalon (and close to Sun Rock Retreat) [/QUOTE]
Funny thing is, that guy could had killed my at most a couple of times. Then iuse hearthstone, move my ass to another zone, play there.

I really feel pity about that dwarf hunter. He is losing waaaay more time than their victims.... 1 week there doing nothing? wow....

I preffer way more to run through Sillithus or going to EP and chase everyone i cross with who isnt in an epic mount (a epic vs epic chase is sooo long and boring...)

[IBtehWalrus]

I play on a pvp server and i never attack allies unless they attack me :)

[Xal]

What I want to see is a world that is based on the Gurubashi Arena PvP rules in all places that aren't instances.

Someone ninja loots? Kill him. You don't like that someone's greifing? Kill them. You don't like that someone's stopping you from griefing? Kill them. You think the person you're playing with is annoying? KILL THEM.

THEN when someone says "cry more n00b" they can be speaking from authority. As is, a situation where your own side cannot chastise you for being an idiot irritates me to no end.

Funny story. On my alliance char, I'm heading for RFK. Party member starts ganking low levels at the base of the elevator. By the time all of us are there, there's a crew of high-levels waiting to kill whatever alliance they see. The rest of us manage to get in the instance, he insists on staying. Eventually he says "I cnt work w/ u n00bs." and leaves. The four of us do RFK from start to finish without him. Killing him would have been so much more satisfying.

[Volja]

What I want to see is a world that is based on the Gurubashi Arena PvP rules in all places that aren't instances.

Someone ninja loots? Kill him. You don't like that someone's greifing? Kill them. You don't like that someone's stopping you from griefing? Kill them. You think the person you're playing with is annoying? KILL THEM.

THEN when someone says "cry more n00b" they can be speaking from authority. As is, a situation where your own side cannot chastise you for being an idiot irritates me to no end.

Funny story. On my alliance char, I'm heading for RFK. Party member starts ganking low levels at the base of the elevator. By the time all of us are there, there's a crew of high-levels waiting to kill whatever alliance they see. The rest of us manage to get in the instance, he insists on staying. Eventually he says "I cnt work w/ u n00bs." and leaves. The four of us do RFK from start to finish without him. Killing him would have been so much more satisfying.

/signed.
/signed again

Pretty simple, give us FreeForAllPvP servers ;) An example of how to make it really interesting, allow a human to gain a good reputation with Orgrimmar by killing members of the now shattered "Alliance." Obviously, the guards would attack him when he know goes into Stormwind. But hey, he doesn't care, he'll go have a beer with his buddy Thrall :)

[Mort]

If Blizzard were to do that, then they should also give us PvP-ligt servers, where some sort of dishonor system was in place to limit ganking. :)

[bud]

Those who, still are pro-ganking, please read Hrungrim's and Mort's posts, over and over and over again. Especially read that boxing analogy, read that a few times, too.

And wasting some other's time, pointlessly, for your own sadistic amusement, is NOT OK! There is, just, no argueing that! I really don't understand why, the pro-ethics posters had to give like a zillion real-life examples and that some people still don't get it, and say that they will, because they can...

You know, there are many many things in life that you CAN, but that you SHOULDN'T. Controlling an unanimous (sp?) toon in a virtual world, does not change that.

All that the pro-ethics posters are saying that:

1) Some of the people playing this game are acting like jerks. We don't like those jerks.

2) That people shouldn't act lilke jerks.

3) That it would be nice if Blizzard would implement a system that would discourage people from being jerks. Actually, I'd wish that this wasn't neccessary, that people acted nice and played fair without the need for such a system. But unfortunately, most probably because of the anonimity offred by the game, insist on being jerks.

Now the thing that I don't understand is: why would some people defend being jerks, and say that they will be jerks, just because they can! Or say that boxing matches can be unfair at times, too, so we can be unfair in the game, too. What kind of a logic is that?

Frankly, the expected response is along the lines of: I try not to be a jerk, and play fairly as much as I can.

I know there are griefers in the game (and griefing is a bad thing by definition), but I didn't expect the goers of this forum to defend their actions.

PS: @Overkill: I have noticed that you always post honestly and frankly, you express all your ideas and feelings openly. And I had come to like you for that, even though some of your expansion ideas were whacky :p. But I was really upset when I read your post, where you said you had corpse-camped a guy for 25 times. And that the guy was a moron. Why the hell did you do that? Don't you realize that you have wasted another person's time, and that you have probably upset him/her. Does the fact that he was a moron and unable to get away justify your action? Does the fact that the game allowed you to do it justify your action? Do you go out and punch girls in the class just because you CAN and because they can't defend themselves? Or do you go and pick on real life morons? If you do, do you expect people to find it OK?

[OverKill]

nevermindddddd

[triqui]

Those who, still are pro-ganking, please read Hrungrim's and Mort's posts, over and over and over again. Especially read that boxing analogy, read that a few times, too.
Have read a few times. I still think eating meat has nothing wrong ethically AND wont become vegetarian just becouse *you* believe meat is wrong.

And wasting some other's time, pointlessly, for your own sadistic amusement, is NOT OK! There is, just, no argueing that!
Uh? No argueing? I see lot of argueing here... Oh wait, you have the Holy Truth and all the rest of us are wrong, forgot that....

IT IS OK BECOUSE IT DOES NOT CHEAT OR HACK AND DO FULFILL THE SERVER CRITERIA ABOUT PVP= IF YOU FLAG YOURSELF YOU ADMITT PVP.

I really don't understand why, the pro-ethics posters had to give like a zillion real-life examples and that some people still don't get it, and say that they will, because they can...

We will, becouse that is the reason *i* joined PvP servers. If you joined for other reasons guess what? Wrong server.

You know, there are many many things in life that you CAN, but that you SHOULDN'T. Controlling an unanimous (sp?) toon in a virtual world, does not change that.

Yes, becouse in real life i wield a 5 feet long Axe and people i slaughter just have to run from the cemetery to his corpse.... No wait, they dont...

1) Some of the people playing this game are acting like jerks. We don't like those jerks.
From your (imo, twisted) point of view

2) That people shouldn't act lilke jerks.
i dont act like a jerk. I battle players in a plaver vs player server. Waaaaay different.

3) That it would be nice if Blizzard would implement a system that would discourage people from being jerks. Actually, I'd wish that this wasn't neccessary, that people acted nice and played fair without the need for such a system. But unfortunately, most probably because of the anonimity offred by the game, insist on being jerks.

It wouldnt work, for a TON of reasons.

Now the thing that I don't understand is: why would some people defend being jerks, and say that they will be jerks, just because they can! Or say that boxing matches can be unfair at times, too, so we can be unfair in the game, too. What kind of a logic is that?

You missed the boxing example point: A guy that punch another guy is a jerk. A guy that do it in a Ring is a boxer. A player that kill a player is a jerk(doh?). A player which kill a player in a pvp server is a pvper. Analogy is: both the boxer and the player in a pvp server DO agree with a serie of rules before they enter in the Ring / pvp server: they accept they can be punched, and they accept if they flag themselves (with /flag, attacking someone, or going into Contested area) they can engage non consensual pvp (which mean pvp when they arent free, ready, buffed, full of hp and mana and with their pets and totems out, in a 1vs 1 match against some1 with his own level)

.....Do you go out and punch girls in the class just because you CAN and because they can't defend themselves? Or do you go and pick on real life morons? If you do, do you expect people to find it OK?

I have a question to you: do you slaughter real life people with 2 handers swords?

Real life IS NOT world of warcraft and YES the fact it is a game cartoon DOES matter. No i WONT camp real life corpses to re-kill them for a second time. Happy?

[bud]

Have read a few times. I still think eating meat has nothing wrong ethically AND wont become vegetarian just becouse *you* believe meat is wrong.
yea like, if i believed that killing ppl wasn't unethical, no one could come and tell me that i am a bad person. hmm, nice.. at least, i think, i could still be arrested and persecuted (sp?). if only blizz considered, at least corpse camping, as griefing.


Uh? No argueing? I see lot of argueing here... Oh wait, you have the Holy Truth and all the rest of us are wrong, forgot that....

annoying other people, is a bad thing, do you aggree?

IT IS OK BECOUSE IT DOES NOT CHEAT OR HACK AND DO FULFILL THE SERVER CRITERIA ABOUT PVP= IF YOU FLAG YOURSELF YOU ADMITT PVP.


as i am flagging myself, i am stating that i am willing to engage in pvp combat. that is right. as you see my toon, you make a decision whether to attack me. when you see me, you also see that my level is much less than yours, or that my life has been brought down to 10% from fighting a mob, i.e. i have no chance of winning against you. you also know that there is a real life person behind that toon. at this point you make a decision. you _know_ that it will not be a fair fight. you _know_ that you will win. you _know_ that i will have to run back to my corpse, and possibly lose progress on my current quest or something. you _know_ that you will annoy me and waste my time.
yes, at this point you will make a decision.
this whole thread, and this whole argument is not about the rules of the pvp server. it is about the decision above. the morality of this decision. the way people make their choices in the above situation.

We will, becouse that is the reason *i* joined PvP servers. If you joined for other reasons guess what? Wrong server.

no, you know that it clearly is not an issue of wrong servers. and it is not about the rules.

It wouldnt work, for a TON of reasons.

well, honestly, i havent given it much thought. but if there were some sort of a dishonor system, i think it would be better for everyone. tho, i dont know. thats prolly a discussion for another day. as i said, the main issue that i am argueing here is the decision above. i _wish_ that people would choose more ethically, that people would think of "the other guy". but if blizz had implemented a dishonor system, i think it could improve the situation, by giving a gameplay motivation towards the moral choice in the above dillema (sp?) for those lacking an ethical code of his own.

You missed the boxing example point: A guy that punch another guy is a jerk. A guy that do it in a Ring is a boxer. A player that kill a player is a jerk(doh?). A player which kill a player in a pvp server is a pvper. Analogy is: both the boxer and the player in a pvp server DO agree with a serie of rules before they enter in the Ring / pvp server: they accept they can be punched, and they accept if they flag themselves (with /flag, attacking someone, or going into Contested area) they can engage non consensual pvp (which mean pvp when they arent free, ready, buffed, full of hp and mana and with their pets and totems out, in a 1vs 1 match against some1 with his own level)

i agree to the non-consensual thing. i am not saying that you shouldnt attack another player unless he is at 100% life&mana, exactly the same level as yourself. i am saying that you shouldnt attack grey enemies, you shouldnt attack ppl when they are at 10% life. i really hope that you can see the difference. or at the very least accept that there is a difference between non-consensual pvp and ganking.

I have a question to you: do you slaughter real life people with 2 handers swords?

Real life IS NOT world of warcraft and YES the fact it is a game cartoon DOES matter. No i WONT camp real life corpses to re-kill them for a second time.

WoW is an online game, where you play with/against real people. it has a community of real people. so acting nicely or acting like a jerk does make a difference in this virtual world.

Happy?

not yet! :)

[OverKill]

Carebear Stare!

http://mrankin.home.cern.ch/mrankin/Stare.jpg

[triqui]

yea like, if i believed that killing ppl wasn't unethical, no one could come and tell me that i am a bad person. hmm, nice.. at least, i think, i could still be arrested and persecuted (sp?). if only blizz considered, at least corpse camping, as griefing.
Do you think eating meat is ethically wrong or not? If you think is right, i can arrange you a meeting with a vegetarian friend i have that can show you plenty of "reasons" that "show" how unethical it is. I do agree murder is unethical, so do the 90% of moral codes in the world AND our law system Lot of other people disagree about the ethicals of, say, Death penalty or abort. So yes, ethics ARE a grey zone. _AND_ Blizzard *does not* consider corpse camping as griefing, so... the law is on my side, and *my* ethics (and lots of other pvp players) are on my side too.

annoying other people, is a bad thing, do you aggree?
I got annoyed when Bush won his reelection. Voting bush is a bad thing? what about those who actually like him? what about freedom of vote? Those who dont vote like me are bad guys?
Fact is: whenver you do something, you can annoy people. That does not make your decission *Wrong* per se. Like putting an anti-tobacco law will annoy a lot of smokers and that does not make that law bad (or good) per se.

I get annoyed when i lose a duel. Do you think everybody has to lose against me?

Annoying other people does not make something ethical or un-ethical. See tobacco law example.

no, you know that it clearly is not an issue of wrong servers. and it is not about the rules.
No, i know it is about wrong servers. In pve servers, when you wnat to fight someone, you can /flag yourself and start doing /rudes until he attacks you.

well, honestly, i havent given it much thought. but if there were some sort of a dishonor system, i think it would be better for everyone.
Others have. You will see how a raid of 12 lvl 40 go chase some 60. Grief will stay. The 60s will be the griefed. Not to point that 5vs1 is a gank even if all 6 players are 60. How will you handle it? It is not workable.

... i think it could improve the situation, by giving a gameplay motivation towards the moral choice in the above dillema (sp?) for those lacking an ethical code of his own.
I *wish* you could understand something: thinking killing a cartoon is not wrong *does not make me* a person without ethical code. Just like eating meat *does not make me* a person without ethical code despise my vegetarian friend does not like it. You sound as if you have the Holy Truth and everyone else *is* wrong as a fact.

i agree to the non-consensual thing. i am not saying that you shouldnt attack another player unless he is at 100% life&mana, exactly the same level as yourself. i am saying that you shouldnt attack grey enemies, you shouldnt attack ppl when they are at 10% life.
What about 99% life.What about 11% life? What about 50% life? When it becomes "ethically correct"? What about killing lvl 51 (who arent "grey" and give me contribution points)
Often i attack a lvl 60 at full health and mana, and i KNOW im going to win before the match starts. Just becouse it says "scout" right over his head and i recognize some maraudon' blues and green items that make them way undergeared compared to me (and probably not used to pvp fight). Im 100% sure to kill those. In fact, they often are less hard than lot of other high geared good pvprs i can find at 50% health (specially classes with escape skills like mages druids hunters and rogues, or classes with healing skills like paladins).

So the point is.. WHEN is it *moral* to attack someone? WHO says 95%life is moral but 75% (or whatever % you like) is not?

i really hope that you can see the difference. or at the very least accept that there is a difference between non-consensual pvp and ganking.
There is. But ganking is not against the rules, is not against TOU, and is NOT UNETHICAL. Btw, i dont kill grey ppl, it is stupidly boring imo.

WoW is an online game, where you play with/against real people. it has a community of real people. so acting nicely or acting like a jerk does make a difference in this virtual world.

So?
The best experience i have is when i kill someone that ganks me. The other day i was assaulted by 2 lvl 59 when i was finishing Fordring quest (a quest that takes a f***** long to complete, i for one will never gank anyone doing this quest :scratch: ). I beated them both, and it was really a "wow" moment. Also remember once i beated a +7 lvls druid in Un'goro. Those are GREAT moments. I give other people the chance to beat me and get a "i wont forget that ever" moment ;)

[bud]

my point is about how you choose in the situation i described in my post. it is not about establishing some additional rules to pvp and to ban ppl who dont follow them.

i accept that there are many grey areas in this subject, and those grey areas can possibly render a dishonor system disfunctional. but at the extreme ends of those grey areas there are areas that are absolutely white or black. i am merely asking ppl to consider the other person's situation before they attack.

that is all. this is not some real war, this is just a game, if you consider the other people's fun a little bit, it might be better for all of us. is that too much to ask?

[triqui]

that is all. this is not some real war, this is just a game, if you consider the other people's fun a little bit, it might be better for all of us. is that too much to ask?
Have you considered that in a real war maybe i wont *gank* people (ie: shooting paratroopers before they touch the floor), and BECOUSE it is a game is why i dont find nothing wrong on it?

[bud]

Have you considered that in a real war maybe i wont *gank* people (ie: shooting paratroopers before they touch the floor), and BECOUSE it is a game is why i dont find nothing wrong on it?

your logic and mine are about just the opposite i guess.

even tho i hate wars and stuff, and that i would probably be deserter in a real war....

in the situation you describe i _would_ shoot the paratroopers in the air if i could. because there is a seriously big gain on that, for me and for my fellow soldiers, and also there is too much at stake.

but in a game, i might consider not shooting the paratroopers in the air. because its just a frigging game after all, and why ruin the other guy's day.

but here i would also like to make a clarification: if said situation (or equivalent) were to appear in a WoW BG i would most definetly shoot!! that's the whole point of the BG. there is no such thing as ganking in a BG.

but if that guy was jumping off a cliff in a pve zone, i probably would let him be.

i hope my answers are making my argument clear.

[triqui]

your logic and mine are about just the opposite i guess.

Probably. Who is right or has stronger ethics? My vote goes to "both, that is what ethics is all about"

BTW: geneve convention forbid shooting paratroopers in the air AFAIK. So if you preffer to be a war criminal instead of a ganker, good for you :wink2:

[OverKill]

Name and server please. I want to gank you.

[triqui]

Name and server please. I want to gank you.
Me? :scared:

Doomsayer, Eu-Kor'gall

I thought we were on the same side... :D

[Palm]

Bud: You say they are jerks. Fine. It's your opinion. But that's all it is. You can't force your opinion on others. Every moral code is relative to public opinion. It doesn't exist independently. You dont get to decide for other people, obviously.

I don't like pvp. The whole thing is a giant waste of time IMO. Why be doing pvp when you could be grinding or doing item runs? It doesnt do much for my ego to win in pvp, and i know i could if i tried, and I'm just not very interested in it. But if I was, I'd go on a pvp server and probably gank. Why? On a pvp server the competition is of a different nature than on a pve server. On a pve others may be better then you but on a pvp if others are better then you not only are they better they can hamper and obstruct your efforts. If you gank a low level, over and over and over, your going to make it harder for that player to do his quests/play his game, get better and better and eventually possibly become better than you with time. There you have a reason to gank that has nothing to do with "sadism". If it's a pvp server it's war and in war there is no such thing as a fair fight, there is only winning and losing.

[bud]

well, i really do not wish to continue with this discussion anymore.

i believe that supporters of both sides have made their comments and expressed their opinions. we all tried to argue our points through examples and analogies, but the analogies never got through. because we all had quite opposite view points.

hopefully, people on both sides of the discussion got to glimpse the other side's ideas. we have argued an age old discussion, anyways.

well see you on other threads, where hopefully out ideas coincide.

[Palm]

Analogies are such a cop out. Anyone can pull crappy analogies out of their rear end. Sorry but that wont pass for an argument in my book.

[brandondash]

And wasting some other's time, pointlessly, for your own sadistic amusement, is NOT OK! There is, just, no argueing that!
Sure there is. We have been for several weeks now in this thread.

Now the thing that I don't understand is: why would some people defend being jerks, and say that they will be jerks, just because they can!

Because it's necessary.

Or say that boxing matches can be unfair at times, too, so we can be unfair in the game, too. What kind of a logic is that?
It was a bad analogy if you ask me, but even so you missed the mark completely. The analogy was that the tomato can knew what he was signing up for when he stepped in the ring.

Frankly, the expected response is along the lines of: I try not to be a jerk, and play fairly as much as I can.
So define fair, all knowing pvp guru.

How about this? I get killed by a +10 rogue. I find that rogue and I kill him back, then corpse camp him for 20 more minutes. You are going tell me that I am the jerk there? If so, know that I sharply and completely disagree. In a situation where under normal circumstances I would never be able to properly recalcitrate his actions, you damn well better expect that I will employ whatever tactic is necessary to properly elucidate my displeasure.

I know there are griefers in the game (and griefing is a bad thing by definition), but I didn't expect the goers of this forum to defend their actions.
First off, I'd like to see your definition of griefing, because it certainly doesn't sound like the definition you can find at blizzard.com

Secondly, people at this forum are no different than people anywhere else. You will find people from all walks of life and with all different opinions. Do not be so presumtuous as to imply that those who disagree with you are wrong or less entitled to their viewpoint.

brandon-

[Eskodas]

Nicely put Brandon.

I think it's safe to assume we all have differing interpretations of what constitutes a gank, though it seems the majority of us fall between the two extremes - which isn't suprising really.

I get the feeling the two extremes are borne of personal experience too, being the victim of ganking either bringing you out as a staunch supporter or vehement opponent of it.

Saying it's part of the game is valid, and pretty obvious really, and we don't have to agree. I view it as a game and play it as a form of escapism, so trying to relate it to how I'd react in real life just won't work. As far as I'm concerned you're entitled to go gank mad if you like, I won't but then that's got more to do with how you want to play rather than any kind of judgement on your personality.

I've got a friend on my PvP server that face to face is one of the nicest folks you'll ever meet, but get him on server and he turns into a gank addict - it's why he plays PvP - if this sends you into a fit of anger then talk to Blizz since it's their game dynamics that allows you to do it.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

[OverKill]

Getting ganked and complaining about it is like getting shot in Battlefield or another FPS game and calling the person a jerk for it. It's part of the game. If you can't deal with dying to another player then there's something wrong with you anyways.

Are people who kill other players always jerks? No, they're PLAYING A GAME!

[triqui]

Getting ganked and complaining about it is like getting shot in Battlefield or another FPS game !
Better comparisson is to being camped by a sniper rifle camper or something like that. Still, Sniper riffles are there for a reason in most FPS, and most FPS teams do have a dedicated sniper for that matter.

[Mort]

Getting ganked and complaining about it is like getting shot in Battlefield or another FPS game and calling the person a jerk for it. It's part of the game. If you can't deal with dying to another player then there's something wrong with you anyways.

Are people who kill other players always jerks? No, they're PLAYING A GAME!

So was the dwarf who ran around killing low level players in Staonetalon for a week, and the guy who ninjas a loot. They are all just playing the game (ie. Blizzard wont bann them for it). And noone in their right mind who cant take dieing to another player plays on a PvP server, that much we can agree on. However, noone here has ever tried to suggest that its a bad thing either. The pro-ethic's point has allways been to avoid grossly unfair fights (whatever that might be).

But the "anti-ethics" people (for lack of a better term) make a good point. Anything that is not stated by blizzard to be against the rules is perfectly legal, and it is left to the individual player to decide what to do and how he wants to play the game. However, I doubt there are anyone here who would play the game to its extrem, doing anything and everything that Blizzard considers part of the game. Im sure we all have a moral compass that kicks in at some point or another, telling us that we should not do what we were just given an opertunity to do. The matters discussed here is mearly the finer points of that compass.

And naturly, any type of gameplay is given a denotation, such as ganker, griefer, cheater, ninja-looter, carebear, noob and so on. I suppose calling someone either of these to reflect the persons prefered gameplay is unavoidable, and I suppose its left to each of us to decide what we want to be, so long as we all accept that people will react to us differently based on how we chose to play the game.

But I am inclined to agree with Bud, I think both sides have stated their opinions and made their points. I doubt we will ever agree, so I suggest we all read each other posts one more time (some people seem to ignore/forget the finer points of other peoples agruments) and call it quits.

Good fight.

Mort

[brandondash]

gg everybody. now I'm off to watch rvb 64