Attack Power -v.s.- Crit % (long & mathie)

[squigipapa]

I started throwing together some calculations last night, comparing Attack Power V.S. Crit %. What got me really thinking about this was a post made by a member over at the official forum... (unfortunatly I can't remember his name, or I would properly credit him).

His post just 'clicked' with me. It was a very simplistic concept to understand, so I wanted to look into it a little more. First just give the other guys' post a quick read:


Study the way the AP and crit behave themselves. You understand that you need burst damage in a pvp scenario and you comprehend the increased benefit AP has o*n every swing.... but you need to analyze the way AP works in relation to CRIT.

Let me ask you this: What is a 100% crit rate?
You might respond with every hit being a crit correct? Negative.

A crit, is simply a double dmg hit... (aka 2x, excluding talents). Instead of seeing that in terms of crit, see that as 2x the weapons dmg. Then, deduce at what level of AP would you need to reach that dmg.

What I'm not so easily explaining to you, is that you can simulate a 100% crit rate, because 100%crit = X AP.

While you cannot obtain this X, you can get pretty close through buffs. (Raid buffs even higher).

Increasing your AP, you understand your increasing your damage by a set amount at all times. Crit applies itself in the same way but at seemingly random intervals. Random meaning %'s to score its benefit. I will assist you o*n this voyage and give you:

1300 AP (ruffly) = 100% crit and 0 AP

At this point your essentially doubling your weapon damage or essentially scoring critical hits everytime. In there lies a sweet spot and synergy between crit and AP.

This so easily complex =)

1% crit = +1% DPS
14 AP = +1 DPS

The difference between them is that o*ne increases your DPS by a set amount and the other through a %.

For simplicity lets take 100 dps.

If you have 100 DPS
+1% Crit = +1% DPS
14 AP = +1% DPS (+1/100)

If you have 50 DPS
+1% Crit = +1% DPS
14 AP = +2% <------ DPS (+1/50)
(as per other threads)( notice the larger impact 14 AP increase has o*n a lower dps weapon)

The higher your TOTAL DPS, the more valuable crit becomes. The lower your total DPS, the more valuable AP is.

The symmetrical value between the 2 is 100 dps. Now does that apply to total DPS, weapon dmg... or what? .... = )


So I started playing around last night with aprox. numbers using equiptment I already had. Going Full crit, my attack power was significiently lower. going full attack power, caused a nasty hit to my crit rate. However, after the calculations were finished I found that for sustained dps (ie. raids etc.) I was much better off with lower crit and higher AP.

This is what I came up with my first calculations .. looking strictly at Hemorrhage.


Looking @ 2 examples:

#1: 25% Crit - 400 Attack Power
#2: 20% Crit - 700 Attack Power

Example 1:
Hemorrhage With Crit Setup (#1):
--------------------------------
Thrash Blade
One-Hand Sword
66 - 124 Damage Speed 2.70
(35.2 damage per second)

(66 + 124/2) + (400/14)*2.70
= (128) + (77.14)
= 205.14 {Crit: 205.14*2.30=~472}

For simplicity let's look at this damage over 100 hits
Using 25% crit as a baseline, and taking +30% bonus to
crit from Lethality.

So: {(75*205.14) = ~15385} + {(25*472) = ~11800} == (15385 + 11800) = 27185


Example 2:
Hemorrhage With Attack Power Setup (#2):
--------------------------------
Thrash Blade
One-Hand Sword
66 - 124 Damage Speed 2.70
(35.2 damage per second)

(66 + 124/2) + (700/14)*2.70
(128) + (135)
= 263 {Crit: 263*2.30=~605}

Again, For simplicity let's look at this damage over 100 hits.
This time we'll be using the 20% baseline, and taking +30% bonus
to crit from Lethality.

So: {(80*263) = ~21040} + {(20*605) = ~12100} == (21040 + 12100) = 33140

Conclusion: We end up gaining 5955 damage by going with higher attack power
and lower critical strike %. This calculation would also be relative in calculating
the 'normal, white damage' attacks.

It should be noted however, that talent build will also come in to play. A seal fate
build for instance gains much more from a crit than a hemo, or standard 21/8/22 build.

[galzohar]

I took my own gear which is 53-100 dagger and 80-150 mace with around 625 AP and 20% crit. I have an THEN figured how much +crit, +dam and +agi I'll need for +1% damage, and then rebalanced the formula to make it roughly:
1% crit = 17 AP = 11 agi damage-wise. For SS It gives a bit more than +1% damage and for BS it gives about +.8%. Ends up being almost the same formula for both SS and BS - obviously for MY gear. If your stats are significantly different than mine you should make your own math. I may make a program that will make those calculations for you when I'm really bored as I started getting MC epics and will have to redo those calcs anyways as I get better items and therefore more AP and crit.
BTW if u wanna count dodge as damage reduction (which only works against some chars) then it's only like 5.5 agi for BS and 6.5 agi for SS instead of 11.
If your stats aren't more than like 15% off than mine my calcs will be quite close to correct for you too.

[niteshade6]

My own math is pretty similar, I think I ended up with 1% crit=9 agi=16 ap or something like that. Those numbers or something similar are usually pretty well agreed upon. Crit gear tends to be overrated by most, including the Blizzard item budget system. AP on the other hand tends to be underrated.

[hungc9]

Wow that was amazing!!!
Thanks for the info!

[squigipapa]

My own math is pretty similar, I think I ended up with 1% crit=9 agi=16 ap or something like that. Those numbers or something similar are usually pretty well agreed upon. Crit gear tends to be overrated by most, including the Blizzard item budget system. AP on the other hand tends to be underrated.

Ya, No kidding.

#1
Cadaverous Armor
Binds when picked up
Chest Leather
172 Armor
+8 Strength
+8 Agility
Durability 100 / 100
Requires Level 56
Equip: +60 Attack Power.

76 Attack Power, 0.25% crit, 0.5% dodge

#2
Shadowcraft Tunic
Binds when picked up
Chest Leather
176 Armor
+26 Agility
+13 Stamina
+12 Spirit
Durability 100 / 100
Requires Level 58

26 Attack Power. ~1% crit, ~2% Dodge, 130 life

#3
Nightslayer Chestpiece
Binds when picked up
Chest Leather
200 Armor
+10 Strength
+29 Agility
+20 Stamina
+10 Fire Resistance
Classes: Rogue
Durability 120 / 120
Requires Level 60
Equip: Improves your chance
to get a critical strike by 1%.

39 Attack power, 2% crit, 2% dodge, 200 life.

Just looking at the chest pieces, and what only their stats would do for your damage, they probably should have called it the Cadaverous Shanker. :happy14:


*don't take this the wrong way .. I'm not comparing the items for overall effectiveness or anything like that, and I'm not counting set bonuses or anything else. just a simple 'benifit to damage' comparison against the individual items.

[niteshade6]

Don't forget the nightbrace tunic in there too, in terms of pure damage it's in between cadaverous and shadowcraft.

[UndeadRogue]

[QUOTE=squigipapa]

Just looking at the chest pieces, and what only their stats would do for your damage, they probably should have called it the Cadaverous Shanker. :happy14:

QUOTE]

Ok, I know, I'm a bit simple minded, but Squigi... are you saying
that Cadaverous armor outranks / outdamages both the
ShadowCraft and the Nightslayer ? :chinny:
That's not possible right ?

And as a AP-addict you would actually choose it over the other 2 ?

[squigipapa]

Ok, I know, I'm a bit simple minded, but Squigi... are you saying
that Cadaverous armor outranks / outdamages both the
ShadowCraft and the Nightslayer ? :chinny:
That's not possible right ?

And as a AP-addict you would actually choose it over the other 2 ?

Ok, well if we're talking 'pure attack power' only, then yes, it has more. But technically, a demon blade of power has more attack power than a crystal tipped stelleto, i'd still take the CTS. However, I'd have to do the math, but I believe that if we're only talking the chest piece here, without the rest of the set, that cadaverous would cause more damage, simply because the attack power gap should be big enough.

I will say though, that it is currently my main armor that I wear. IF, I were to get the nightslayer chest, without any other NS pieces, I would not be vendoring my Cadav., and depending on the situation (ie. damage v.s. survivablity) I would still wear it.

[Schnorres]

can someone give us a formula for the "sweet spot"?
How do you get your values for:
1% crit = XX AP = YY agi

[galzohar]

Don't forget STA though. For me i need +4 STA for +1% HP while for +1% SS damage I need 10.6 agility (or 16.6 AP) and for +1% BS damage I need 14 agility (or 22 AP). That makes 1 STA > 1 agility even if you count in the dodge. That's why NS chest, although has a bit less damage than cavadeous, is much better. 200 hp is no joke!

[Grymm]

This (http://www.brogett.plus.com/rogue_dps.html) may be helpful. Not sure if you guys have seen this or not, but it seems to be taking these observations into account. It's possible the poster was Brogetta or Ming. I know both those guys have done a lot of experimentation in regards to agility, crit % and AP.

[niteshade6]

Cadaverous does in fact have more DPS then nightslayer, although many could consider nightslayer to be the better piece overall. On the other hand, most consider cadaverous to be overall superior to shadowcraft. The nightbrace tunic on the other hand is usually considered to be better overall then both cadaverous and shadowcraft.

Many well geared rogues however will still choose to wear cadaverous chest piece over even nightslayer. Once your hitpoints reach 4000, you probably don't need too much more outside of BWL or PVP. Because the damage from cadaverous far outstrips nightslayer, many are willing to wear it up and make up for the stamina from other epics.

[galzohar]

The difference in DPS is equivalent to a difference of 18 attack power. Not big at all IMO, so I'd wear NS anyway since it has immensly more HP and dodge even for instances when I'm not supposed to be taking any damage or for grinding (where DPS is everything - lose minimum HP while killing as fast as possible then eat when needed instead of having high HP which will only make u eat less often but eat more anyway). But I suppose if you (and your party) play so perfect and you'll never ever get ganked I suppose you can use cavadous armor over NS outside of MC and PvP.

[squigipapa]

The difference in DPS is equivalent to a difference of 18 attack power. Not big at all IMO, so I'd wear NS anyway since it has immensly more HP and dodge even for instances when I'm not supposed to be taking any damage or for grinding (where DPS is everything - lose minimum HP while killing as fast as possible then eat when needed instead of having high HP which will only make u eat less often but eat more anyway). But I suppose if you (and your party) play so perfect and you'll never ever get ganked I suppose you can use cavadous armor over NS outside of MC and PvP.


ya, totally agree.. I'd wear nightslayer in an instant. it isen't even a question. But I don't 'have' to have it.

I tend to go all out damage, and make up health in other ways. As many know, I'm an alchmest. and i use my professoin to the max. I have the flask of titans recipe, and whenever I go into a serious run like MC, I'm honestly 2 tiers ahead of full nightslayer rogues when it comes to health. I'm on par when it comes to damage, because I'm wearing items that give me the max damage. So as far as my effectivness in the raid, I'm completly on par, because I make up for the lack of top tier epic gear with alchemy etc. Most of the geared out guys are surprised when a 'mish-mash of blue items/hemo rogue' equils, or surpasses their damage. Sure, outside of MC, venturing around the world they're superiour because their equiptment is always with them.. but for the duration of that mc run.. a flask of titans, elixir of the mongoose, elixir of giants, magic resistance potions, greater fire/shadow protection potions, and a constant supply of elemental sharpening stones, will take a mediocre rogue and make them tier 2, hardcore epic for 5 hours.

[galzohar]

a flask of titans, elixir of the mongoose, elixir of giants, magic resistance potions, greater fire/shadow protection potions, and a constant supply of elemental sharpening stones, will take a mediocre rogue and make them tier 2, hardcore epic for 5 hours.
And cost you TONS of gold.

[squigipapa]

And cost you TONS of gold.

well, I guess in potential 'lost profit', If I sold anything on the AH. Which I don't anyway, well from my professions that is. Essentially all my profession related stuff goes to my guild bank anyway. Technically, I don't 'spend' a single gold on anything ever. I just don't 'make' gold off of anything useful in my profession. I sell overpriced frost oil every now and then, and i gouge people on transmutes which pays for any of my regular upkeep. Our guild bank is funded by regular donations by everyone, any time i've ever wanted to buy anything on the ah, (anything expensive) I simply ask the bank. All greens, blue BoE's etc. that pretty much anyone finds goes to the bank, and are either distributed to other guild members, sold for bank profit on the AH, or in the case of crap greens, disenchanted for guild enchants.

[AlexanderK]

ya, totally agree.. I'd wear nightslayer in an instant. it isen't even a question. But I don't 'have' to have it.

I tend to go all out damage, and make up health in other ways. As many know, I'm an alchmest. and i use my professoin to the max. I have the flask of titans recipe, and whenever I go into a serious run like MC, I'm honestly 2 tiers ahead of full nightslayer rogues when it comes to health. I'm on par when it comes to damage, because I'm wearing items that give me the max damage. So as far as my effectivness in the raid, I'm completly on par, because I make up for the lack of top tier epic gear with alchemy etc. Most of the geared out guys are surprised when a 'mish-mash of blue items/hemo rogue' equils, or surpasses their damage. Sure, outside of MC, venturing around the world they're superiour because their equiptment is always with them.. but for the duration of that mc run.. a flask of titans, elixir of the mongoose, elixir of giants, magic resistance potions, greater fire/shadow protection potions, and a constant supply of elemental sharpening stones, will take a mediocre rogue and make them tier 2, hardcore epic for 5 hours.


What about tier 2 rogues with those pots?

It's not like having your tier 2 set limits you to not having potions.

[squigipapa]

What about tier 2 rogues with those pots?

It's not like having your tier 2 set limits you to not having potions.

That's not what I'm saying. Of course if they have the tier 2 gear, and the use my standard vast array of potions, they'd be far beyond a tier 2 level, and i'd still be where I was. Ya, they could definitly '1 up' me, but for the most part, people tend to not do so.

I find a lot of people think of 'money' or 'cost' first. I don't. when it comes to consumables, I try to completly put the AH out of my mind. The way I look at it is: I go solo, farm mobs, and do my gathering. I do it first for me, to have a constant supply of pots/consumables. So, anything I gather/make, is free the way I look at it. Yes, I could sell the 4 flask of titans I made the night before last; they go for like 50 - 75 gold each on my server, but I'm not going to. It's in my bag, It cost me nothing more than a crystal vial, and I'll use it without hesitation. I just don't find many people think like this.

How many people chug a flask of titans when they zone in to AV? I did the other night, and it diden't actually 'cost' me a cent. (well the price of the vial.).

Because a Tier 2 epic rogue 'can' use the same consumables, means nothing if they don't. For the most part they don't. I do. And when I do have all my higher tier gear, I still will. Fighting an alchmest is not a dangerous thing in PvP. Fighting an alchmest with a blatent disregard for potion cost, and two full 16 slot bags of potions is.

Last night in ZG, while fighting the snake boss, I never backed off once, and I required almost no healing. I was essentially standing in the poison cloud, and just hammering away. Why? Because for 5 full minutes I was completly, totally, and utterly immune to ALL poison. I diden't take a single health point worth of poison damage in the entire fight. I came out on top for damage in that fight by a huge margin. Me: with 31 points in subtilty, 3 points in Combat, 17 points in Assassination; A Hemo using a Thrash Blade & a Shadowblade (offhand.) ... Ahead of a Seal Fate - Perditions/CHT Rogue, Ahead of a Rends Arms - Combat Rogue.

How? 5 x [Elixir of Poison Resistance] (removes any existing poison, and makes the user IMMUNE to ALL poison effects for 60 seconds. - Cooldown: 0 ; Not on combat potion timer.)

Most people have never even heard of that potion. Some have heard of it and don't even make the connection... Immunity to Poison. Immunity in PvP to Crippleing poison, Mind numbing poison, wound poison, deadly poison, instant poison and BLIND!... Immunity in PvE to the ZG Snake boss.. Spider boss..

So ya, Everyone has this stuff avaiable to them .. Hardly anyone uses it to even 1% of it's potential. I can't remember the last time I was hit with crippleing poison or blinded. I have NEVER seen "Immune" from another player when I proc a poison on them. Other rogues see nothing but "Immune" when they proc poison on me. 99% of them don't even know how. It's a level 14 potion, needs lvl 125 alchemy to make, and takes a [large venom sac] (from ~lvl30 spiders/scorpids) and a single piece of [Bruisweed].

That one is just one example. The other one I used twice last night was the [Limited Invulnrability Potion] Twice while I was fighting the Bloodlord, I got the "Your being watched" message and I diden't even stop pounding, just downed a pot, he charged me.. nothing... zero damage..... Immune. (for thoes that don't know the encounter, the boss will send out yells, saying your name followed by "I'm Watching You!". You have to essentially hit escape and not move. Dont' hit, don't bandage .. do nothing. If you do, he charges you and essentially 1 hit kills you. I've seen a full might set /prot spec. tank get hit for 5700 damage.)

Anyway, kinda went off topic there a little, but the point I'm trying to make with this, is that yes.. the tier 2 rogues could use everything that I do and far surpass my effectiveness; But generally, they don't. I do. Being able to do something, and Doing it, are 2 very different things.

[galzohar]

I don't 'spend' a single gold on anything ever. I just don't 'make' gold off of anything useful in my profession.
That's the same thing as spending gold for me.
I would only use potions where it would be hard/impossible to kill the boss without them, like onyxia, and AFAIK rag is much worse. I don't even bandage on trash mobs in MC since I know we can take them out without my help if I get low health.
You help your guild by donating potions, I helped mine by donating 900 dark iron ores (450g worth on my server though I got them for like 415g by farming the AH).
Basically a 3g potion will help you for one fight, but a shifting cloak would help you for a very very long time as it's hard to upgrade. Same goes for myrmidon's signet. Krol hand on the other hand I'm prefering to sell than use since I have the AV mace. Don't forget gold lets you have stuff like flame and shadow reflector as well, and I didn't even mention the epic mount which should've been mentioned first.
Bottom line is I would only spend money on potions where I would be dead if I didn't, and in some cases you're actually better off dying too.

As for how I came up with the numbers:

For SS:
damage = average weapon damage + 2.4XAP/14 + 63
1% damage gain = damage/100
AP for 1% damage gain = (damage/100)X(14/2.4)

Crit rate = 10% + agility/30 (assuming level 60 and +5% crit from talents)
Crit damage bonus = critX1.3 (assuming lethality)
Crit needed for 1% damage gain = ((1+crit damage bonus)/100)/1.3

Agility needed for 1% damage (not perfect but it's probably ends up being less than 0.1 agility off):
1 = agility/(30Xcrit needed for 1%) + agility/AP needed for 1%
Solve equasion and get X=agility u need for +1% damage.

You'll now have 1% = X crit = Y agility = Z AP, so:
1 crit = Y/X agility = Z/X AP

For BS:
Damage= 1.8X(average weapon damage + 1.7XAP/14) + 210
AP needed for 1% = (14Xdamage)/(100X1.7X1.8)
Crit rate = 10+agility/30+30 (assuming improved backstab)
Crit bonus = crit rate X 1.3 (assuming lethality)
crit needed for 1% = (1 + crit bonus/100)/1.3

(same as SS from now)
Agility needed for 1% damage (not perfect but it's probably ends up being less than 0.1 agility off):
1 = agility/(30Xcrit needed for 1%) + agility/AP needed for 1%
Solve equasion and get X=agility u need for +1% damage.

You'll now have 1% = X crit = Y agility = Z AP, so:
1 crit = Y/X agility = Z/X AP

After you calculate this it should remain quite accurate unless you gain an equiv to at least 100 AP. If you're optimizing for MC or whatever you should include all buffs you'll have there before making these calculations.

[niteshade6]

I pretty much always have to think of the cost of a consumable before i use it. From the sound of things, being able to make the items (as opposed to selling the herbs and buying the finished products on the AH) is actually hurting you in many ways by causing you not to be AH savy. Given the 1000's of lost gold profit it sounds like you spend on potions, you've lost out on quite a few epic items.

[AlexanderK]

That's the same thing as spending gold for me.
I would only use potions where it would be hard/impossible to kill the boss without them, like onyxia, and AFAIK rag is much worse. I don't even bandage on trash mobs in MC since I know we can take them out without my help if I get low health.
You help your guild by donating potions, I helped mine by donating 900 dark iron ores (450g worth on my server though I got them for like 415g by farming the AH).
Basically a 3g potion will help you for one fight, but a shifting cloak would help you for a very very long time as it's hard to upgrade. Same goes for myrmidon's signet. Krol hand on the other hand I'm prefering to sell than use since I have the AV mace. Don't forget gold lets you have stuff like flame and shadow reflector as well, and I didn't even mention the epic mount which should've been mentioned first.
Bottom line is I would only spend money on potions where I would be dead if I didn't, and in some cases you're actually better off dying too.



Alchemy>all other professions (enginering is quite clsoe though)

Why? My guild run BWL and MC and there isn't a single item that is crafted that's better than drops. Blacksmiths etc have 0 uses for us. While alchemy helps you do bosses alot faster and smoother.

[galzohar]

You only need 1 alchemist for a server for potion making :D
Engineering everyone need to have though because you can't get its bonuses without having the proffession. Same goes for 1-2 gathering proffessions, they're pure money-makers. Being a miner/skinner on one char and a miner/engineer on the other, I've got pissed off many times when I found a herb and couldn't pick it up... Just imagine how angry I would get if I couldn't mine minerals I run into ;)
And for MC there are some crafted items that give big FR without sacrificing a lot of stats (still sacrificing though) so you need at least 1 blacksmith per spec in each server too ;) same goes for leatherworking and tailoring.
Some fights require alchemy potions but except for those fights I'd rather not use potions. Some extra killing speed isn't worth how much it costs to get it.

[TheVanquish]

On the first example you have

(66 + 124/2) + (400/14)*2.70
= (128) + (77.14)
= 205.14 {Crit: 205.14*2.30=~472}

i worked out 66+124/2 as 95.

Did I work it out wrong and missing something or was it just a typing error?

Thanks

[squigipapa]

I pretty much always have to think of the cost of a consumable before i use it. From the sound of things, being able to make the items (as opposed to selling the herbs and buying the finished products on the AH) is actually hurting you in many ways by causing you not to be AH savy. Given the 1000's of lost gold profit it sounds like you spend on potions, you've lost out on quite a few epic items.

lol. sorry man. but lol is all I can say.

Selling the herbs and buying the finished product is fine, in theory. It works if you're talking about Healing & Mana potions.... but if you think alchemy is healing and mana potions, I feel sorry for you.

"Causing me to not be AH Savy"
Once again. Search as I might, lol is the only thing I can say.

The following is for my server. It's possible that it's not the same on yours. My realm has been avaiable since launch, and is "full" / "high population". So, the market is fully matured. Let's take my current bags as a shopping list. I've sold all my gathered herbs on the AH, and now I want to take my "massive profits" and buy the potions I'll use to maximise the effectivness of my character.

Elixir of Poison Resistance
Flask of Titans
Limited Invulnerability Potion
Magic Resistance Potion
Restorative Potion
Elixir of the Mongoose
Free Action Potion
Invisiblity Potion (not lesser)
Greater Fire Protection Potion
Greater Nature Protection Potion
Greater Shadow Protection Potion
Greater Frost Protection Potion
Greater Stoneshield Potion


Ok. So, if I run out of any of these I can simply make more. if I run out of the herbs / reagents for them. I can simply go get them. With gatherer, it seriously takes no time.
Now .. Let's assume I'm not an alchmest, Cause there's no reason to be an alchmest if you're AH Savy, and you know that you can just sell the herbs and buy the potions you want. So, I take a quick jaunt back to Orgrimmar, saunter in to my handy AH, and set about the no brainer task of buying all the potions I want. (The sample shots were all taken this morning, right after I read this post.)

Elixir of Poison Resistance:
http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/ah-potions/001-elixir-of-poison-res.jpg
(Doh! I forgot, I'm 1 of 3 known crafters of this elixir on my entire 'full' realm. guess
I can't buy that one.)

Flask of Titans:
http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/ah-potions/002-flask-of-titans.jpg
(Doh! again, one of only a handfull of known crafters.. can't exactly 'buy' these whenever I want)

Limited Invulnerability Potion
http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/ah-potions/002-limited-inv-potion.jpg
(WooHoo! I struck gold! 2 of them, on the entire AH, for the bargen basement price of a 5 gold buyout... hummm .. um.. when I sold all my herbs I don't seem to remember 2 pieces of blindweed and 1 ghost mushroom bring me in 5 gold.. maybe I'm wrong)

Magic Resistance Potion
http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/ah-potions/003-magic-res-potion.jpg
(Wow, this time I really did strike gold. 8G,90S for 10 potions. 10 x Khadgar's Whisker &
10 x Purple Lotus. Maybe, on a good day, this is close to what I could sell the raw mats for.)

Restorative Potion
http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/ah-potions/004-restorative-potion.jpg
(damn.. guess I'll have to go without the ability to remove hunters mark, countless DoT's, countless curses etc.)

Elixir of the Mongoose
http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/ah-potions/005-mongoose-elixir.jpg
(Awsome! they have some. a stack of 3 for 9 gold. 1 stack of 5 for 16 gold, and once I've bought thoes, it'll be 40 gold for 10 of them. ... well .. thanks but I'll take 15 minutes to run from the bottom of felwood, and up through winterspring, or around the outskirts of ungoro or silithis.)

Free Action Potion
http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/ah-potions/006-free-action-pot.jpg
(Are we having fun yet?)

Invisiblity Potion (not lesser)
http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/ah-potions/007-invisiblity-potion.jpg
(For thoes times when you just have to run by a crowd at full +70% sprint while totall invisible.. there are only lesser ones.. unless I've lost 16 levels and have the urge to make myself a phantom blade, I'll stick with making my own, full fledged, invisibility potions)

Greater Fire Protection Potion
http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/ah-potions/008-greater-fire-prot-pot.jpg

Greater Nature Protection Potion
http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/ah-potions/011-greater-nature-prot-pot.jpg

Greater Shadow Protection Potion
http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/ah-potions/009-greater-shadow-prot-pot.jpg

Greater Frost Protection Potion
http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/ah-potions/010-greater-frost-prot-pot.jpg

(we'll just clump these together... as you can see .. a vast array avaiable. I'm certinly glad that I diden't make them for my AH-Savy self when I can just 'buy them for less than the price of the mats")

Greater Stoneshield Potion
http://diablo.littlemonkey.ca/uploads/ah-potions/013-greater-stoneshield-pot.jpg
(once again .. my fingers are getting tired from clicking the buyout button so often.)

Alright, now that my bags are filled with the most powerful consumables in the game, let's go wreak some havoc.

I can make, What I want. When I want. and it dosen't "cost" me anything. And man, seriously.. the "not being AH savy"... If you can make OVER 1000g, in LESS than 3 hours, independant of professions OR luck, reliably and repeatedly, as I've done on more than one occasion in the past 2 weeks, then you can tell me I'm not AH savy. If you don't believe that I can do this, then I can say without a doubt, that you're not 'Rogue savy' (because, without a doubt, we're the only class that can do this)

If you can gather some herbs, and sell them for enough profit to buy whateverr potions you want, at the drop of a hat.. Awsome. I (and no one else) on my server can. If your AH is Constantly stocked with an unlimited number, of every potion in the game, for pennies on the dollar of what the raw materials cost ... Awsome.. more power to you.

If not then, trust me, the ability to make my own consumables is definitly not "hurting me in many ways"

[niteshade6]

Well first off I should note that a number of those high prices are the same as the individual herbs sell for at least on my server (and on all the other servers I've seen). 3 gold is a quite fair price for mongoose elixirs, the herbs used to create it easily sell for that much if not more (and yes this does mean every time you drink one, it costs you 3+ gold). Obviously some of those potions you listed were overpriced, and probably will not sell. Limited Invul. is a good example. Even magic resist normally sells for alot less on my server (also high population). There are always idiots who try to sell something for 10 times the normal price. You may as well think of these as sold out.

The more relevent issue is availability of the potions. Having alchemy is definetely a convenience in that it allows you to get the potions when you want them. Otherwise it might take you time to either search the AH over the course of a day or 2, or send the herbs to a mule/guild member. How important this is is up to you. Your server may sell out faster then some, which is an important concern. Obviously is everyone decides they don't need alchemy...then it becomes far more valuable. Some of the potions that were not available on your server are always available on mine.

The fact remains though that with the gold you have spent on potions, you could have a krol's blade/mymidon's ring/amulet of the darkmoon and many other top quality epics and blues. I know your still stuck using a thrash blade, so this may be pretty important for you. In the long run of course, you'll probably end up with MC epics anyway.

As a final note, I should say that I'm not saying your a bad player or anything like that. I've always had a great deal of respect for you on the forums as one of the more insightful posters. I point this out because your last post seemed extremely defensive, as well as mildly insulting. I'm just saying that you might be able to give your character a huge power boost if you just stop using consumables for a month. Yes you may lose some short term power, but in the long run you will be much more powerful once you start using them again with your new gear.

[squigipapa]

The fact remains though that with the gold you have spent on potions, you could have a krol's blade/mymidon's ring/amulet of the darkmoon and many other top quality epics and blues. I know your still stuck using a thrash blade, so this may be pretty important for you. In the long run of course, you'll probably end up with MC epics anyway.


See though, here is where our value of 'well spent gold' differs. I'm not using a thrash because I'm 'stuck' using it. I'm using it, because to me, it makes sense. I've calculated every single possible factor comparing it as a 100% completly free weapon, to the popular BoE's of choice. It dosen't make sense. The gains are not enough (for me) to justify 1k to a gold farmer, no matter how hungry his 'famry' is. I'm inside of instance XYZ every night of the week, if rends main hand drops and I win it .. great, then I'll upgrade my thrash. If BB drops this weekend in MC, and I get it officer oppointed, awsome.

Up until a couple of weeks ago, I was happy with my ~10 profit every 24 hours for a water --> air transmute. 10 gold for 15 seconds of work was fine. it paid for upkeep (ie. repairs poison etc.). Then the news of the expansion came out. All the new goodies.. flying mounts etc. It's not known at this time exactly 'how' any of that stuff will be obtained, So at that point I decided that I should make sure that I had more than enough money to buy anything that blizzard could possibly throw into the game. So, I sat down, thought about it.. tried a few things out .. and discovered a way to make an immense amount of money.... Just as an example, I showed one of my rogue guild mates this little 'strategy'.. he was broke, with like 25 gold to his name. Last night, which was almost exactly 24 hours after I initially showed him this 'technique', he linked me his epic mount.

For me, Money is not the issue with the consumables. Avaiablity is. One of the potions I use the most lately is the [Elixir of Poison Resistance]... honestly, I drink these like mages drink water. In PvE I use them mostly in ZG. There's a hell of a lot of poison damage there. On our wensday night zg raid, It was record time/record effiency. In the snake & spider boss fights, there is MASSIVE poison damage. In fact, I'd say at least 80% of the damage taken in these fights is poison. Having these elixirs is a huge benifit to me, as well as our healers & tanks. Is it doable without? sure.. but life is easier with. Is MC doable with an arms/fury warrior as the main tank? sure it is... but life is easier with a full prot. one.

In PvP, I am never hit with instant poison. I'm never crippled. never hit with wound poison. never DoT'd with deadly. and Immune to blind. My guilds casters are immune to mind numbing.

It's undenyable that this is a huge advantage.... now; Make all the money you want ... and go try to buy some of these.

Anyway, It dosen't matter. It's a difference of oppinion. In fact, it absolutly works out to my advantage that a lot of people agree with you. It would suck if everyone agreed with me on this. Just imagine if everyone was running around AV with 1.2k more life, more crit, able to absorbe multiple hits of every type of elemental damage a caster can throw at them, immune to every form of poison in the game, Rogues with the equivilant of mail armor damage reduction for 2 minutes at a time, and the list goes on ......

[galzohar]

Still minimizing potion usage = more money to get better potions where it really matters, and the money u save by not taking alchemy can make you afford MORE herbs to send to a guildie alchemist.
What I'm afraid of is that at some point people will no longer want to buy mithril and thorium and then my mining will become useless and I'll have to spend hours leveling herbalism or live with the low cashflow, but this day is probably still far away as new people/chars keep coming are still taking blacksmithing and engineering often enough.
If I wouldn't be an engineer I'd probably be an alchemist though, just for the transmutes since skinning disappointed me for money making and as you keep saying, availability of being able to make your own potions does matter, though for me I'd rather bother finding a guildie to make them.

[niteshade6]

Well first off, Krol blades don't usually cost 1000 gold these days, and you can often just get a cheaper alternative that's almost as good for around 200-300 gold. The difference between using one of these and using a thrash blade is much greater then the difference of always having drunk an elixir of the mongoose. So essentially if you just saved up for a little while and didn't use any consumables for about a week (given the rate you seem to use them) it would be like having an extra super strength mongoose potion in effect all the time which stacked with your existing one. Add in a few other things and you get an even greater effect. And you can still use potions when you need them.

Availability of potions is usually tied into the availability of the resources needed to make them. Many people in my guild can make a poison resistance potion, however large venom sacks are rare which limits the supply on the AH (and to my guild). I still see them for sale, and usually they go for about the same price that it would take to buy the venom sack. If I find one, I can turn it into a potion about as easily as an alchemist can...either by selling the sack and buying the potion, or by giving it to a guildie.

[Jaytlas]

Hi,

Along with my Rogue, i also have a Dual Weild Fury Warrior. It is widely accepted on the warrior forums that for Dual Weild (DW) characters, it is 9.62AP=1DPS. This is because AP is also increasing the DPS of your offhand weapon as well. However, your calculations using 14AP=1DPS are valid for assesing the effect of AP on instant attacks.
Also, I'd like to support the other poster who is a potion addict. Potions are the casual players way of keeping up with the hard core, 8-12 hour/day players. The simple FACT is that MOST players of WoW will very rarely if EVER step foot inside a 40 man raid dungeon, let alone do it enough times to get a chance at collecting a full set of teir 2 gear. Another poster advocated reducing potion use to save up enough gold to buy epics, unfortunately most teir 2 items are BoP and can not be bought on the AH. Lastly, the single most important skill ANY player can learn is how to play the Auction House game. Once you master this skill you can have any buyable item in the game, including a virtually unlimited supply of potions. Like the other poster said, 1000g/week is easy and 1000g/day can happen on occasion.

[squigipapa]

Availability of potions is usually tied into the availability of the resources needed to make them. Many people in my guild can make a poison resistance potion, however large venom sacks are rare which limits the supply on the AH (and to my guild). I still see them for sale, and usually they go for about the same price that it would take to buy the venom sack. If I find one, I can turn it into a potion about as easily as an alchemist can...either by selling the sack and buying the potion, or by giving it to a guildie.

ok. let's just chalk it up to difference of oppinion. I don't have to sell herbs, or cut back on potions to buy pretty much anything off the AH. seriously, it's not the issue. I don't look at it as lost profit when I make/use a potion. I gathered this stuff for free. while farming elemental fire/water in ungoro, air/earth in silithis. while grinding up rep in silithis etc. I can't look at every potion/piece of food/bandage/poison/blinding powder etc. etc. as lost profit. I could sell all my fadeleaf, and not use blinding powder, but I'm not going to gimp myself like that. The only way to maximise profit all the time is to farm gold all day long, and sell everything you find. I'm using the consumables, that I gather / make, because 'to me' they're free. If I find a hundred dollar bill on the sidewalk, it's not going to bills, or home maintenance or anything else like that. I could take that hundred dollar bill, and invest an extra hundred bucks in my RRSP (retirement plan).. that's just not me.. I'm gonna use it for fun.

[galzohar]

Usually u need to be pretty hardcore farming enough mats to use potions regularly.

[niteshade6]

Well of course the ultimate power is to have the best gear and use potions...and if you have enough gold that you keep yourself in the best gear and use potions all the time then you truely will be an uber rogue. With that being said if your pretty confident about your ability to make massive gold when you want, you really should pick up a few upgrades on the AH. I would not be surprised if a few items could up your DPS by 10-25%. Your potions keep you alive longer, and if you combine that with a big damage boost your power will multiply.

By the way I do have to correct myself on one mistake. Apparently the materials for a poison resist potion are cheaper then I thought. It looks like that one could be a real money maker (assuming people buy them for high prices, which I'm not sure about). Now that I know how cheap it is, I may have to buy some materials to give to a guild alchy myself.

[squigipapa]

By the way I do have to correct myself on one mistake. Apparently the materials for a poison resist potion are cheaper then I thought. It looks like that one could be a real money maker (assuming people buy them for high prices, which I'm not sure about). Now that I know how cheap it is, I may have to buy some materials to give to a guild alchy myself.

It's actually not a very well known potion. It's a level 14 required / 125 alchemy skill potion. The sac's are crazy easy to farm. the scorpions on the shimmering flats drop them at a rate of 12 to 15% or so. There's a lot of them as well, in clumps, with a decently fast respawn. They're essentially a 1 hit kill with a crit ambush.

Like I said though, most people don't even know about it. Honestly, if 'a couple' of people in your guild have this recipe .. they're lucky as hell! My realm forum has an incredibly comprehensive craftables list, with essentially every recipe from every profession and who is able to craft it. Every guild from medium size to the absolutly insane hardcore raid guilds are represented. There are 3 known crafters on the realm. 1 horde (me) and 2 alliance; That's it. Comments that I've gotton from a number of people in larger guilds are along the lines of "I've seen the weapon chain recipe, the lifesteal enchant recipe, most flasks etc. etc. but other than the people on the craftables list, I have never seen/met or heard of anyone who has this recipe"

As I said, most people haven't heard of it, and a number of people who have, shrugged it off as a 'low level' pot that isen't any more useful than most other similar level potions. People have trouble to believe that a level 14 character could technically stand in a level 63 raid level AoE poison without taking a single point of damage for 60 seconds (in theory of course). The fact that it also completly nullifies all rogue poisons including blind, for 60 seconds at a time, with no cooldown, and not on any potion timer including the combat one, is a little tough for people to believe.

[galzohar]

Do I hear a call for "nerf poison resist potion"? ;)
I wouldn't bother with one in PvP but it seems extremely powerful in several boss fights as u describe them, making them a cake. I guess we should start abusing it until someone calls "nerf!"

[paroXysms]

No way did it take you 5 mins to down the Snake boss :P

[Krollin]

No way did it take you 5 mins to down the Snake boss :P
Our guild does the Snake Boss in 5 minutes (he is quite easy actually) and we don't bother with ZG that much, we are not a hardcore players Guild either.

@Squigipapa: I find that even with Gatherer the time taken to get enough herbs to make enough of these potions to have 16-slotters full of them takes more time than I have as a casual player. How much time do you really spend gathering over the course of a week? I play about 20 hours max a week.
BTW, I am also the proud owner of the Poison Resistance recipe, the pots are brilliant :)

If I am lucky and have a Sunday morning to myself then I spend those 2 or 3 hours in Aszhara, Felwood, Winterspring and the Plaguelands gathering enough herbs to last me the week.

[squigipapa]

@Squigipapa: I find that even with Gatherer the time taken to get enough herbs to make enough of these potions to have 16-slotters full of them takes more time than I have as a casual player. How much time do you really spend gathering over the course of a week? I play about 20 hours max a week.
BTW, I am also the proud owner of the Poison Resistance recipe, the pots are brilliant :)


Well, it depends really. The venom sac's I often get off the AH. They're very undervalued. A lot of times when people are farming the shimmering flats for scales from the scorpids they throw up the venom sacs they get at the same time. Last night for instance, I bought 45 x [Large Venom Sacs] for a 20s buyout a piece. The other thing is that since I'm in a fairly large guild, any new players or alts typically grab gathering professions and send a ton to the bank. I literally get 20 mails a day with stacks of various herbs/reagents attached. However, these are of course not for my own personal use, but are handed out at raids etc. For my own personal use, I'd say maybe a couple of hours a day; but I always try to do more than one thing at a time If I need Icecap, I'll grind up my timbermaw rep and collect Eko's at the same time. If I need Gromsblood, I'll grind in the badlands and collect mats for the uber buffs (ie. lung juice etc.) at the same time. If I need various herbs, I'll grind Felwood and gather tubers etc. at the same time. If I need fadeleaf & goldthorn I'll grind the highlands, and gather elemental fire (fire pots) and elemental earth (elemental sharpening stones) at the same time. For purple lotus & firebloom I'll do tanaris and gather tons of wolf steak for buff food.

So, all in all I do quite a bit of gathering, a couple of hours on avrage, but there are nights when there's not much going on where I'll pretty much gather the whole night, over various places, and while doing other useful things in the area.

For the poison elixirs though, on the snake boss for instance, having the warriors & rogues immune to the DoT cloud cuts the fight into a fraction of the time. Typically the warrior will use a stack or so, and I use typically 1 or maybe 2, but basically I down the first one when he shifts to snake form. On the spider boss, typically the 'ping pong' tanks will each use a couple and the most important clothies will get a few each for when the spider dumps agro and runs at them.

[Trepidation]

No way did it take you 5 mins to down the Snake boss :P

Yeah, suprised it took that long. :xmas4: Yeah for us it is about 4 minutes on a bad day. Sheep 3, pull one snake back...tank pulls boss to corner. Grind down the snakes in about 1 minute, kill the boss in 2 more. According to my muse data...our average fight is about 3min, 20 seconds.

-tReP

[j1mb0x99]

People are too preocupied w/ gold.

-JiM

[DarksideKarma]

If it wasn't a necessity people wouldn't be preoccupied with it.

[badboybarnett]

hi am new can u lz help how tp play the game........
is it that u playit online becoz i dont understand help plz

[Valas Azuviir]

hi am new can u lz help how tp play the game........
is it that u playit online becoz i dont understand help plz

a) Wrong forum, try the community forum for this type of post.
b) Be a tad more exact on what exactly you do not understand and what your problem is.
c) We would be most appreciative, if you skipped the 'leet' speak and use ordinary English to communicate with us, so we have a better chance at helping you out.

[Appren]

Interesting read, but I'll have to admit..I get easily confused.
Playing a warrior, and wondering how it would be for me. Currently at 910AP and 19.97% crit unbuffed (without battleshout etc) , using a 176-264 dmg, 64.7dps 3.4 speed 2h sword (OEB) with sword spec. I tried to calculate...but..well..failed :xmas11:

Anyone able to say approximately how much AP would be worth 1% crit for me with this setup? :xmas6:

[Asgorath]

Last night in ZG, while fighting the snake boss, I never backed off once, and I required almost no healing. I was essentially standing in the poison cloud, and just hammering away. Why? Because for 5 full minutes I was completly, totally, and utterly immune to ALL poison. I diden't take a single health point worth of poison damage in the entire fight. I came out on top for damage in that fight by a huge margin. Me: with 31 points in subtilty, 3 points in Combat, 17 points in Assassination; A Hemo using a Thrash Blade & a Shadowblade (offhand.) ... Ahead of a Seal Fate - Perditions/CHT Rogue, Ahead of a Rends Arms - Combat Rogue.

How? 5 x [Elixir of Poison Resistance] (removes any existing poison, and makes the user IMMUNE to ALL poison effects for 60 seconds. - Cooldown: 0 ; Not on combat potion timer.)

Most people have never even heard of that potion. Some have heard of it and don't even make the connection... Immunity to Poison. Immunity in PvP to Crippleing poison, Mind numbing poison, wound poison, deadly poison, instant poison and BLIND!... Immunity in PvE to the ZG Snake boss.. Spider boss..

After reading this, I took a stack of these for myself and one for our main tank into our ZG run yesterday. As soon as Venoxis turned into a snake, I chugged one. The first poison cloud nearly killed me, doing the usual 500 DPS. Was I supposed to wait until the cloud appeared? I was dead before the 1 minute of resistance was up, after 2-3 poison clouds.

[DarksideKarma]

I love this potion, the only problem is farming the large venom sacs. It takes an increadibly long time to get these. I farmed for a few hours and had enough for about 10 potions.

On a side note, you can use this even while blinded which is HUGE in PvP.