Attack Speed Question

[Thail]

Hey guys, I have some questions mainly regarding attack speed game mechanics and our talents which are related to attack speed, namely Slice n Dice, and Blade Flurry.

Talent questions
I guess the first question is do Slice n Dice and Blade Flurry stack? (never been a combat rogue myself so am not sure if they do or not)
Assuming they do, my math would say that's a 50% increase in attack speed for 15 seconds, is that correct?

Game Mechanics
Is it possible to go below an attackspeed of 1?

I've had this idea in the back of my head that I've wanted to try out for quite some time involving using slice n dice and blade flurry to reduce the attack speed of a rogue dual weilding 2 melee weapons with an attack speed of 1.3 (a good example is julie's dagger). Reduce the attack speed by (or to) .65 for 15 seconds. My aim was to have as many attacks as possible to maximize the effect of lifestealing/poison procs. Assuming all of that is possible would the end result be worth it?

[Gimme]

Last I heard, they do stack.

As for the plan, you can try it, but I have used blade flurry often, and while it does help, its not something that I would base my build on. As for procs, some procs are based on time, not %.

The most effective way to use SnD is either right after your opener, or when you have a spare combo point. Investing your talent points into SnD is usually considered a waste.

[Valas Azuviir]

Game Mechanics
Is it possible to go below an attackspeed of 1?


Yes.. Any Hunter will be able to tell you that. Take one Broken Tooth pet with an attack speed of 1.0. Have points in frenzy. Sic pet after squishy. If it kicks in, very likely with an attack speed of 1.0, then his speed with drop to 0.77, which means shredded squishy.

[squigipapa]

The most effective way to use SnD is either right after your opener, or when you have a spare combo point. Investing your talent points into SnD is usually considered a waste.

I've been struggleing with this choice. 3/3 improved Evis or 3/3 improved S&D.... After every bit of imaginable math that I can do, for raids; I can't justify spending the points in Evis over S&D.

I can 'pretty' up the findings and post them if anyone's interested.

[Sarnat]

There is no point in using very fast mainhand. Never ever. It just doesn't cut it since you will be using backstab/ambush/ss/whatever skill with weapon damage. Autoattack with 40 DPS weapon is 40 DPS even if it's 1.3 or 2.6 speed. The only thing you might get more is procs, but they will not out damage a slow dagger or sword.

Otherwise blade flurry + SnD is a good combo, especially in PvE, but have some disadvantages in PvP.

[squigipapa]

There is no point in using very fast mainhand. Never ever. It just doesn't cut it since you will be using backstab/ambush/ss/whatever skill with weapon damage. Autoattack with 40 DPS weapon is 40 DPS even if it's 1.3 or 2.6 speed. The only thing you might get more is procs, but they will not out damage a slow dagger or sword.

Otherwise blade flurry + SnD is a good combo, especially in PvE, but have some disadvantages in PvP.

It depends on the weapon; All of the skills you used as an example use a normalized attack power multiplier, so it depends on what the weapons max damage is, normally, slower weapons have a higher max damage, however, there are weapons with a high max and very low dps. Compared with a weapon that has a slightly lower max but much higher dps/speed, they would be less damage overall.

A good example in 1.8 is the age old heartseeker v.s. barman shanker. the shanker is slower, with a higher max damage, however, with a normalized attack power multiplier, higher dps, and better stats, the heartseeker comes out to be the better weapon. Even though the shanker technically has a higher ambush/backstab, a heartseeker would come out on top, even over a very, very, short period of time.

[Sarnat]

It depends on the weapon; All of the skills you used as an example use a normalized attack power multiplier, so it depends on what the weapons max damage is, normally, slower weapons have a higher max damage, however, there are weapons with a high max and very low dps. Compared with a weapon that has a slightly lower max but much higher dps/speed, they would be less damage overall.

A good example in 1.8 is the age old heartseeker v.s. barman shanker. the shanker is slower, with a higher max damage, however, with a normalized attack power multiplier, higher dps, and better stats, the heartseeker comes out to be the better weapon. Even though the shanker technically has a higher ambush/backstab, a heartseeker would come out on top, even over a very, very, short period of time.

Yeah, which is why I said very fast. Almost any 1.3 speed weapon will suck, if not compared to some crap green. There are some good weapons that are not very slow, like the Thunderfury, for example, but most slow weapons will out damage a fast one.

You get the point anyway.

[bloog]

There is no point in using very fast mainhand. Never ever. It just doesn't cut it since you will be using backstab/ambush/ss/whatever skill with weapon damage. Autoattack with 40 DPS weapon is 40 DPS even if it's 1.3 or 2.6 speed. The only thing you might get more is procs, but they will not out damage a slow dagger or sword.

Otherwise blade flurry + SnD is a good combo, especially in PvE, but have some disadvantages in PvP.

Can use fast weapons, but it is a completely different approach. Go with poisons and hemorrhage. You also will have both CB and prep.

I'm using dual Julie's dagger with 2 x life steal. Also I got 5/5 improved instant poison and 4/5 vile poison. Elemental damage makes up over half my total damage. I took (3/3) improved SnD and relentless strikes for energy efficiency. Against lvl 60 normal mobs a 2 CP improved SnD lasts long enough to kill it before SnD wears out. My base opener is (improved) Garrote, Hem, SnD. Then keep Hem running, you need to refresh about every 8 seconds.

I'm using Vilerend Slicer with life steal against mobs that can disarm.

BTW don't try the Icy Chill enchant. It says "quite often chills" but it near never procs even with SnD and. When it does, its effect only lasts 5 seconds.

[KalziEast]

I think SnD is hardly worth it. In boss fights, yes, it's worth it. +30% attack speed for 15 seconds would mean +30% damage from normal attacks. You may be losing 1 sinister strike within that first 5 seconds, but you already made up for it within 8 seconds or so.

[bloog]

I think SnD is hardly worth it. In boss fights, yes, it's worth it. +30% attack speed for 15 seconds would mean +30% damage from normal attacks. You may be losing 1 sinister strike within that first 5 seconds, but you already made up for it within 8 seconds or so.

Are you messing up SnD with Blade Flurry ?

Also if a build relies on DPS and procs, 30% more speed is 30% more damage.

[squigipapa]

I think SnD is hardly worth it. In boss fights, yes, it's worth it. +30% attack speed for 15 seconds would mean +30% damage from normal attacks. You may be losing 1 sinister strike within that first 5 seconds, but you already made up for it within 8 seconds or so.

It's not only worth it in boss fights. Look at it this way. 3/3 in improved Evis translates to 266 to 296 damage to a crit 5pt Evis. 3/3 Slice & Dice adds +30% to white damage for 9 additional damage. You don't need very good weapons for 30% additional white damage over 9 seconds to equal more than 300 avrage damage; and that's just if your imp evis. crits. That's just for talent comparison, (which isen't really what this is about; but I thought I'd throw it in since I've just racked my brain for weeks; calculating every possible thing I could think of trying to decide between 3/3 evis and 3/3 S&D.)

For when and why to use S&D, look at it this way: 5 talent points, in a 4th tier talent in the assassination tree gives you an additional 10% added chance to proc instant poison. S&D will give you 30% additional chances to proc it for a given period of time. Not only that, but S&D works with all poisons. There is no other talent that will increase the likelyhood of procing crippleing poison. Even a 1 point slice & dice will almost guarentee that crippleing procs.

[Apsalar]

Yes, BF and SnD do stack and give kickass damage.

On clustered, multiple mobs (especially in instances when you have someone hold aggro) SnD-BF combo can theoretically increase your damage by 4 times for that 15 seconds it is active (SnD-BF increase your speed by 50% and attacks 2 target). And BF cooldown is only 2 minutes, hardly noticeable. I just love BF and will always have it, unless I respecc to daggers. :xmas25:

Of course, this works better in PvE. PvP, you're probably better of with Cold Blood.

[squigipapa]

Yes, BF and SnD do stack and give kickass damage.

On clustered, multiple mobs (especially in instances when you have someone hold aggro) SnD-BF combo can theoretically increase your damage by 4 times for that 15 seconds it is active (SnD-BF increase your speed by 50% and attacks 2 target). And BF cooldown is only 2 minutes, hardly noticeable. I just love BF and will always have it, unless I respecc to daggers. :xmas25:

Of course, this works better in PvE. PvP, you're probably better of with Cold Blood.

4 times +25% attack power dps bonus if you're an Orc, also on a 2 minute cooldown (hardly noticeable). Before the 15 seconds of burst from blood fury carried a 45 second -25% attack power debuff, so essentially, it wasen't worth using in raid type situations because the damage loss on the debuff outweighed the damage gain during the buff.. Now however, with a -50% healing effectivness debuff for 25 seconds (applied at activation, ie. 10 seconds after buff ends, debuff ends); given equal equiptment, play style and build an orc should unquestionably be the highest sustained and burst damage rogue race in the game.

Trolls should be a close second since the attack speed bonus varries, but could potentially give 10 of the 15 seconds a final attack speed of +80%. I still think it would fall behind blood fury though, since blade flurry, blood fury & slice and dice can be activated like clockwork whenever the cooldowns are finished and will always produce relativly the same bonus damage. It would be pretty hard to ensure that the trolls health was low enough to get the maximum attack speed bonus each and every time it was activated.

[KalziEast]

No... How can you even ask that? I didn't give any idea towards that I thought it was Blade Flurry. BF = 20% increased attack speed.

[morde]

Just a quick pointer: aren't 'chance on strike' procs like enchantments totally not dependant on weaponspeed, so S'n'D/BF will not increase your enchantment proccing at all?
Only increase comes in additional poison procs as they are %-on-hit and not 'chance on strike'. Lifestealing fortunately procs very often no matter what your weapon speed is, got it on mainhand sacred charge and offhand heartseeker.

I've played with the idea of trying some poison-oriented spec but the usability of poisons(other than your standard 2x crippling) in PVP are outweighted by the loss of too many nice talents I think.

[DotComm]

I think I'm right in saying this:

DISCLAIMER it's early in the morning so my calculations could be wrong!

Enchants (crusader, lifestealing etc etc) have a set number of procs per minute (ppm). For example, crusader is 1ppm and lifestealing is 8ppm. Enchanting these on a 2.5s sword would give a proc rate of 4% for crusader and 33% for lifestealing. Enchanting these on a 1.7s dagger would give a proc rate of 2% for crusader and 23% for lifestealing.

The proc rate is fixed to the dagger when the enchant is done. So from now on, lifestealing will proc 33% of the time on my Brutality Blade. This means that I can further increase the proc rate using slice and dice and blade flurry because the proc rate doesn't change further.

As I say, I think that's correct but feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

SB

[KalziEast]

Eh, Rogue's are more meant for Dagger's endgame, that's just my feeling.

[swelt]

@KalziEast: Swords are easier in endgame PvE, daggers are viable too. Dagger itemisation has overtaken sword itemisation now I think, there's a big gap after the top blue swords where vis'kag/nightmare blade sit - drop rates and world boss availability makes these two swords really hard to get.

Back on topic, I think DotComm is correct: using very fast weapons to get additional *lifestealing* procs is a flawed plan, as weapon enchant proc code scales with weapon speed... in fact, the slower the mainhand, the more it will proc from your instant attacks. However, poisons and other items (maelstrom trinket for instance) would benefit from the high attack speed.

Points in Imp. SnD are well worth spending if you are PvE focussed. They not only make 5pt SnD last for ages, they also make a 2pt SnD last the full duration of Blade Flurry.

[Sarnat]

Hmm what did you mean about top blue swords and Vis'kag etc? They are not blue, nor are they top swords in-game. And there are other swords between SoZ/Krol and Vis'kag/NB.

Best swords currently are Chromatically Tempered Sword (CTS) and Ancient Qiraji Ripper (AQR) and they are available to good PvE guilds... NB isn't really available to that many since usually very few guilds dominate the 4 dragons and there is only 2 spawns of the specific dragon which drops this per week.

[swelt]

CTS and AQR are great weapons, but they are at the top of the tree - I mean that after you get Dal'Rend/Zeal/Ravenholdt Slicer (the best blues) there is a gap. That gap is normally filled with a brutality blade. If you get lucky, there is Vis'kag (our guild has been running Ony for 6 months and we've never had one). If you lucky enough to be able to get to world dragons before they are farmed by no-lifers, nightmare blade is an option. What's missing imo is an instanced sword in the same damage range as vis'kag/nightmare blade with a half decent drop rate. The Sand Polished Hammer in AQ20 almost fits this bracket... if only mace spec wasn't so crap.

There are now a raft of daggers in the ~50dps range that bridge dagger rogue progression: qiraji sacrificial, veiled shadows, fang o faceless, lobo... when I was in this field there was only gutgore ripper. These are all great daggers that will last until you get Perditions or Dragonfang. Now we are missing the same kind of itemisation progression in mainhand swords.

[Sarnat]

Yeah, your comment was just written confusingly :P

And who says you need to have the weapon spec to use mace/sword?

[KalziEast]

I've always thought that Rogue's have been meant for Dagger's... I mean, yes, in a raid of 40 people, and there's 8 Rogue's, I think there should be a min of 1 Sword Rogue, but, I don't think there shoudl be more than 2 or 3. When a Sword/Sword Rogue with let's say 2 42 DPS swords walks up and hits Ragnaros in MC, it's going to be pretty hurtful, but, when a Dagger/Sword Rogue walks up with 1 42 DPS Dagger, then the 42 DPS Sword in the offhand and he Ambush Crits, it's a devistating attack. Sure, the 380 (Talent's not included in this) crit Sinister Strike from the Sword Rogue is pretty strong, but, the 1.4K Ambush crit is going to be a "Whoa."

[silospen]

And the 1K sinister strike crits?
Or the 700 white damage constantly ticking over in the background?
Crits in high level instances are a bad thing. They pull aggro, are difficult to control. You want constant damage output rather than crits which, swords provide more effectively.

[JoeMuggs]

I've always thought that Rogue's have been meant for Dagger's... I mean, yes, in a raid of 40 people, and there's 8 Rogue's, I think there should be a min of 1 Sword Rogue, but, I don't think there shoudl be more than 2 or 3. When a Sword/Sword Rogue with let's say 2 42 DPS swords walks up and hits Ragnaros in MC, it's going to be pretty hurtful, but, when a Dagger/Sword Rogue walks up with 1 42 DPS Dagger, then the 42 DPS Sword in the offhand and he Ambush Crits, it's a devistating attack. Sure, the 380 (Talent's not included in this) crit Sinister Strike from the Sword Rogue is pretty strong, but, the 1.4K Ambush crit is going to be a "Whoa."

Yes ambush and backstab do more damage than SS they also take more energy. Backstab may still be slightly better if you consider this, but throw in the fact you have to be behind the mob and the agro factor and it’s at least even. I'm not against daggers but they are no better than swords (in my guild MC runs sword rogues are always on top).

btw my SS regularly crits for 900+ so comparing 380 to 1400 is apples to oranges, and comparing ambush to SS is not right b/c you have to be stealthed to ambush which you can do once a fight (and lots of times in mc not at all).

[KalziEast]

Lol, what you don't realize is that Ambush crits 85% or so of the time for me (Talents). Backstab crits well over 60%. 20 more energy for almost twice the damage most of the time, and I never said that "Sinister Strike is exactly like Ambush" or anything. I said that Dagger Rogue's use Ambush as a first hit, whereas Sword Rogue's use Sinister Strike. Also, Rogue's can easily get 2-3 Ambush's in MC boss fights. Sometimes it's worth it to use that Vanish to drop all aggro, and then immediately get a 1.8K crit.

[silospen]

Lol, what you don't realize is that Ambush crits 85% or so of the time for me (Talents). Backstab crits well over 60%. 20 more energy for almost twice the damage most of the time, and I never said that "Sinister Strike is exactly like Ambush" or anything. I said that Dagger Rogue's use Ambush as a first hit, whereas Sword Rogue's use Sinister Strike. Also, Rogue's can easily get 2-3 Ambush's in MC boss fights. Sometimes it's worth it to use that Vanish to drop all aggro, and then immediately get a 1.8K crit.

Actually yes, I think JoeMuggs and I both realise that rogues have talents...

You dont seem to realise that you do damage other than SS , BS and Ambush.

Although white damage may seem trivial, it will represent a good 50% of your overall damage.

[IngromFolly]

Yep, for PvE White damage is where it's at. For this reason most of the max dmg combat builds include the 5/5 dual wield talent, which dependant on the weapon, is the most effiecent energy/dmg talent available to a rogue.

As for attacking from ambush in PvE (Kalzi, you sound like your 21/8/22 spec??) This is not the most effiecent attack method a) Stealthing behind the mob in the first place is slow and not guarenteed (Given AoE etc) b) A big crit ambush, will fire you up the threat meters like nothing else (run KLTM)

As for SnD, I went for 2/3 in SnD simply cos with Seal Fate cp generation I don't need to worry about losing the initial cp build up being lost ot activate the skill (Mind you stuff dies so fast in MC now getting to 5 point Evis even with CP is nigh on impossible!)

[funkeh]

SnD is the best skill ever for end-game raiding, esspecially when used with +hit gear

[KalziEast]

Yep, for PvE White damage is where it's at. For this reason most of the max dmg combat builds include the 5/5 dual wield talent, which dependant on the weapon, is the most effiecent energy/dmg talent available to a rogue.

As for attacking from ambush in PvE (Kalzi, you sound like your 21/8/22 spec??) This is not the most effiecent attack method a) Stealthing behind the mob in the first place is slow and not guarenteed (Given AoE etc) b) A big crit ambush, will fire you up the threat meters like nothing else (run KLTM)

As for SnD, I went for 2/3 in SnD simply cos with Seal Fate cp generation I don't need to worry about losing the initial cp build up being lost ot activate the skill (Mind you stuff dies so fast in MC now getting to 5 point Evis even with CP is nigh on impossible!)

I realize that white damage is a huge amount of our actual damage. I am not 21/8/22, I am an always changing Rogue =), lately it's 8/21/22 I believe, something like that. I've created my own builds over time. A. Stealthing behind the mob is slow, but, nearly 100% guaranteed, I'm talking MC. B. A big crit Ambush shouldn't matter when your MT has an MC boss with 5 Sunders along with one of your feint's.

[SuDanger]

I realize that white damage is a huge amount of our actual damage. I am not 21/8/22, I am an always changing Rogue =), lately it's 8/21/22 I believe, something like that. I've created my own builds over time. A. Stealthing behind the mob is slow, but, nearly 100% guaranteed, I'm talking MC. B. A big crit Ambush shouldn't matter when your MT has an MC boss with 5 Sunders along with one of your feint's.

A big crit Evis goes well over 2k as well. And with AR running on Bossmobs its easy to keep the 5pt SnD and 5pt Evis going. On damage meter the daggers are always a bit behind the swords. Like 200 to 300k damage through all of MC. You can build whatever you want, until the build doesn't show up over me on damagemeter I won't believe you :shocked:

[KalziEast]

A big crit Evis goes well over 2k as well. And with AR running on Bossmobs its easy to keep the 5pt SnD and 5pt Evis going. On damage meter the daggers are always a bit behind the swords. Like 200 to 300k damage through all of MC. You can build whatever you want, until the build doesn't show up over me on damagemeter I won't believe you :shocked:

Okay, first, I'm going to say to an earlier post about "Sinister Strike can crit up to 1K!" yeah, if you have the best 1h sword in the game. I have a 42.5 DPS dagger and I get 1.7K ambush crit on casters probably 50%+ of the time, 10% aren't crits, 5% are 1.5K-1.7K and the rest (35%) are 1.7-2K ambush crits. I realize that on Rag or something in MC the crit's not going to be 2K, but instead 1.8K (Counting 5 Sunder Armor).

Now, Evisc crits CAN go up to 2K, but, that's less than 10% of the time, sometimes less. Let's just say it's 10% of the time, probably 65% of the time you're NOT getting evisc crits. Also, both Sword and Dagger Rogue's can use evisc, so, that's not really one of the "Oh, Dagger Rogue's can't do that." topics. You may have a 45-50 DPS sword, whereas Rogue's usually have 40-45 DPS daggers when starting MC.