The GLBT Debate [Archive] - Page 2 - Unofficial World of Warcraft Forums

PrismaticEcho

08-02-2006, 07:57 AM

Well, to be honest, I just feel awkward around them, don't know how to act, they kind of turn me off a little, and I just don't know how to socially connect with them.

As far as fear, though, I'm very afraid a guy would hit on me. Like I said, I just have no idea what I would do in that situation. Very afraid!

In general, though, I support their rights.

There was only one gay that I didn't like. That was a guy who was "In Your Face" gay. He was very antagonistic, and it seemed like he cared more about the fight itself than the cause to fight. He would get up in your face, and be like "I'M GAY, RESPECT THAT!" whether you already respected it or not. There were several times when I wondered if he was actually gay or if he just liked making a statement and causing controversy and getting on everyone's nerves. Wasn't a day he didn't wear a rainbow shirt, always handing out pamphlets, etc. It was like he was daring people to stop him so he could take them to court about it or something. Very annoying. He was rude, quite unlike you guys, that letter y'all wrote was very professional and I was quite impressed by it, which is why I commented.

So yeah, except for him, most gays I meet are fine, just people like everyone else is, my only real 'fear' is if one ever hit on me or if I ever got into an awkward social situation with one, I wouldn't know how to handle it, I'd be highly nervous and anxious. In general, given the choice, I'd rather not be around gays (hence why I call myself a homophobe), but I totally respect their rights.

I feel the EXACT same way you do about a lot of straight guys! =)

"Well, to be honest, I just feel awkward around them, don't know how to act, they kind of turn me off a little, and I just don't know how to socially connect with them."

EXACTLY!!! Same for me and straight guys. I simply don't know how to act around them. . . I feel awkward and they freak me out a bit. Actually, it's not NEAR as bad as it used to be when I was a boy. Now that I'm a girl (http://hometown.aol.com/prismaticecho/Pix4.html), I don't feel near as awkward around straight guys because they don't look at me the same way as they did when I was a sissy boy. But I still get a little uncomfortable around them from time to time.

"As far as fear, though, I'm very afraid a guy would hit on me. Like I said, I just have no idea what I would do in that situation. Very afraid!"

Change "hit on me" to "attack me" and I feel the EXACT same way.

And as for your story about the annoying gay guy. . . I've known straight guys that were the EXACT same way. . . overly neanderthal-esque, constantly talking about banging this chick and banging that one. . . disgusting. Just CONTANTLY throwing the fact that he screws chicks in EVERY SINGLE SENTANCE. It's annoying. Other than guys like that. . . I've liked pretty much every straight guy I've ever met. Ya, it's a lil awkward being around them, but I still don't mind them so much. But I'd much rather hang out with a gay guy just coz I know how to act around them and I don't feel like I constantly have to be on my guard.

As completely opposite as we are. . . you and I aren't really that much different. :grin:

Atredies

08-02-2006, 12:18 PM

I'm referring to the actions that the COMPANY (Blizzard) tries to take toward their customers (ya know. . . of their BUSINESS?). People act like this virtual world just exists somehow and Blizzard are these gods that created this world, and aren't bound to the rules and laws of the real world. Come ON! I mean, there's a section in their TOS that states that they (and their customers) are bound to the laws of the state of California. They cannot do "whatever they want" because it's "their world". No. . . it's not their world. . . it's their business, which is a big office building in the state of California with real people working for them and discriminating against people in the REAL world. The thought that this game world isn't a part of this world is absolutely insane.

I don't believe if you read carefully enough, that anyone is trying to state that the company does not exist or in fact that WoW doesn't exist nor any of Blizzards employees which is what you have implied in your statement above. That I feel is just being argumentative for no reason.

The point that others have made including myself is that this is Blizzards creation they do hold a certain amount of ownership over that creation and because of its very nature, virtual, that the rules are somewhat blurred as to wrong-doing online but is ultimately their decision. (They can pull the plug at any time if they want!)

Once again this whole drama being raised by others is proving to be quite tiresome, personally I am sick of the over hyped, over opinionated arguments of people with the lack of foresight to realise that all this does is infuriate the majority as opposed to bringing them onside.

Life isn't fair, some rules suck and **** happens. Maybe this is a cynical view on life personally I would say it is realistic.

Cheers,
Atredies

SpiritWalker

08-02-2006, 02:02 PM

It looks as though it was just a few rogue GMs who were misinterpreting the policy to fit their own agenda though. . . from what the head of their Global Customer Service department said to me.
In other words "We, Blizzard, don't want a lawsuit on our asses so we better give this person what she wants so she shuts up".

Let me ask you this, what do you think you will gain from all this? Do you think if you'd win this you will have had a major victory for the GLBT community? If so what did this victory gain the community? Does the fact that it now suddenly will be allowed to post GBLT in general chat change anything, anything at all?

Tell you what I think is going to happen, you will start playing the game again, you will have the guild you wanted, could have had that already without all this fuzz if you'd take the time to avoid it, the little potty mouths will still spam up general chat with gay this and gay that, though I've never seen that, and when you look at it nothing has changed, nothing has been gained from all of this, except that your bruised ego has been put at ease.

Week later this all will be forgotten.. congratulations, you got your 15mins, or more like week, of fame, miss.

SweVoyager

08-02-2006, 03:52 PM

[ "When will Straights learn to keep their sexuality to themselves?!?!" ]
Blizzard, never mind oblivious str8 users, drag Straight sexuality into the game... all the time. Yeah... Just wait till you see the Valentine's in-game stuff. But, don't let a GM (or immature bedroom-pc-kingdom-teen) catch you giving any of it (publicly) to a same-sex partner.

Str8s: please continue to publicly demonstrate your sexuality and preferences
Gays: please remain invisible, at least for as long as possible

Straights mention, and drag, their sexuality into the game *all* the time.
(e.g., "Gotta go pick-up the girlfriend, can't raid...")
Gays have to censor themselves for fear of being reported, harassed, or otherwise ostracized both in guilds and open-chat. Straights don't notice how much, in-game, they discuss (direct/indirect) their sexuality -- because they don't have anything to fear.

[ "WoW is Private Property -- they're free to discriminate!" not so fast...]
This issue, from what i have read and heard, will probably be legally fought under the notion that WoW is a "social club" with explicit, publicly stated disrcriminatory policies. In many states that's a no-can-do in terms of operating a public business, legally speaking ;-].

America is about equal treatement for all.
WoW is no acception to this rule.
Your point would be so much more valid if you didn't confuse quiet hugging in a bar with announcing to the world in GC that you're straight or gay. The Winter Festival is the perfect example of how Blizzard are treating the straight and GBLT crews in the same way, since it made no difference whatsoever which gender you kissed under the mistletoe.

Taking up arms against public weddings, who is just useing /say and possible /yell channels is another moronic way to protest. Make up your own gay (see, this word can mean two things here. :laugh: ) marriage instead. Thats a much better way to "protest" then wrecking someone elses fun and enjoyment of the game.

I'm sure that the Valentine's Day festivities will be just as gender free as the Winters Veil Festival. And if you have facts that contradict that, please show them instead of opening your big mouth stating irrelevant guesses.

Edit: ""Gotta go pick-up the girlfriend, can't raid..." - this presumable is done in guild chat, or perhaps in party chat? You're free to discuss GBLT politics all you want there as well, noone is stopping you. If someone gets upset about it, and starts to rant or is banning you from a group or guild based on your sexuality you have the freedom to _report them_! And they _will_ get a warning (or a ban or whatever).

This victimization of GBLT people have gone too far, in my mind.

It's great that Sara finally got through to the bosses of Blizzard. It's a pity she had to resort to the media to get there. Everything worked out fine. End of story. Hopefully.

Now I only hope for two thing, and those are:
1: That Sara drops her law suit.
2: That Blizzard get better routines! And opens up there GM'ing a bit, so that Joe/Jane Doe can get in touch with the GM's superiors without resorting to the media band wagon.

Well, I dont know why I wrote this. I apologise if anyone gets offended. :thumbsup:

I feel the EXACT same way you do about a lot of straight guys! =)

"Well, to be honest, I just feel awkward around them, don't know how to act, they kind of turn me off a little, and I just don't know how to socially connect with them."

EXACTLY!!! Same for me and straight guys. I simply don't know how to act around them. . . I feel awkward and they freak me out a bit. Actually, it's not NEAR as bad as it used to be when I was a boy. Now that I'm a girl (http://hometown.aol.com/prismaticecho/Pix4.html), I don't feel near as awkward around straight guys because they don't look at me the same way as they did when I was a sissy boy. But I still get a little uncomfortable around them from time to time.

"As far as fear, though, I'm very afraid a guy would hit on me. Like I said, I just have no idea what I would do in that situation. Very afraid!"

Change "hit on me" to "attack me" and I feel the EXACT same way.

And as for your story about the annoying gay guy. . . I've known straight guys that were the EXACT same way. . . overly neanderthal-esque, constantly talking about banging this chick and banging that one. . . disgusting. Just CONTANTLY throwing the fact that he screws chicks in EVERY SINGLE SENTANCE. It's annoying. Other than guys like that. . . I've liked pretty much every straight guy I've ever met. Ya, it's a lil awkward being around them, but I still don't mind them so much. But I'd much rather hang out with a gay guy just coz I know how to act around them and I don't feel like I constantly have to be on my guard.

As completely opposite as we are. . . you and I aren't really that much different. :grin:
Now we're starting to get off topic! :grin: Keep it to the game. And the law suit.

egoz

08-02-2006, 04:09 PM

Your point would be so much more valid if you didn't confuse quiet hugging in a bar with announcing to the world in GC that you're straight or gay. The Winter Festival is the perfect example of how Blizzard are treating the straight and GBLT crews in the same way, since it made no difference whatsoever which gender you kissed under the mistletoe.

Who's announcing ?
She "announced" that her guild was gblt-*friendly*.
You'd think she were prancing around IF spouting poetry from the Island of Lesbos and demanding everyone verbally affirm her sexual habits.

Nope. She was merely saying that her guild was, in short, gay-friendly.
Big deal. This is *exactly* why gblt-friendly guilds are sooooo necessary.

[] Gay Guilds ... a necessary thing in an imperfect WoW_World
As has been mentioned here numerously, if you want to experience anti-gay culture, then join a guild. GuildChat is, general speaking, a place where gays have to censor themselves, unlike straight players.

Gay players want to know a guild won't throw them out, verbally degrade them, or otherwise ostracise them for the rare occassion where they might slip-up and reveal their partner's gender.

It's hard censoring yourself all day at school/work, then to come home, play our favorite game, and then have to do the same. Blizzard is an American company, and as result has a moral obligation to exemplify what is commonly understood to be "American Ideals." One of those is the notion that everyone is treated equally in the public sphere.

The notion of "Freedom for All" doesn't end at any American business' entrance-way.
--
Jacov @ C_Circle Realm

SweVoyager

08-02-2006, 04:26 PM

Who's announcing ?
She "announced" that her guild was gblt-*friendly*.
You'd think she were prancing around IF spouting poetry from the Island of Lesbos and demanding everyone verbally affirm her sexual habits.

Nope. She was merely saying that her guild was, in short, gay-friendly.
Big deal. This is *exactly* why gblt-friendly guilds are sooooo necessary.

[] Gay Guilds ... a necessary thing in an imperfect WoW_World
As has been mentioned here numerously, if you want to experience anti-gay culture, then join a guild. GuildChat is, general speaking, a place where gays have to censor themselves, unlike straight players.

Gay players want to know a guild won't throw them out, verbally degrade them, or otherwise ostracise them for the rare occassion where they might slip-up and reveal their partner's gender.

It's hard censoring yourself all day at school/work, then to come home, play our favorite game, and then have to do the same. Blizzard is an American company, and as result has a moral obligation to exemplify what is commonly understood to be "American Ideals." One of those is the notion that everyone is treated equally in the public sphere.

The notion of "Freedom for All" doesn't end at any American business' entrance-way.
--
Jacov @ C_Circle Realm
I dont disagree that it was wrong to issue a warning to Sara. Try and understand that before you start ranting. I've never been in a big guild (just a big collection of small guilds), so I never had to experience first hand the joys of such a guild chat. But you've messed up the point once again, nobody has talked about a "gay guild" here, it's been about GBLT friendly guilds.

Regarding the right of equal treatment - you are treated equal. Where have you not been? You cant make all guilds accept you, and they shouldn't be forced to do so either. You can now, I guess and hope, announce a gay guild (or a GLBT friendly one) in public chat channels. But when you start talking about who you like to sleep with in a GC you should be banned regardless of who it is (just to keep that 12+ rating). And I guess gays have a slight disadvantage in numbers when it comes to reporting those things, _but your reports will be treated equal to the ones issued against gay people if you make them_!

Edit: And you're wrong, Blizzard is only a division of the french company Vivendi Universal.

catfive

08-02-2006, 05:46 PM

and in accomplishing the right to scream "GBLT friendly" you have handed the right to countless others to scream "NO GBLT's" or "NOT GBLT friendly" ostrasizing yourselves and stirring up an opposite reaction where NONE previously existed.

Congratulations.
People never seem to realise how often the hand the ammo to their firing squad.

"anarchist friendly - neo-nazi friendly - satanic friendly - israel segragationist friendly - nationalist friendly"

Do you get it yet?
You have opened a flood of abuse potentially into an area where politics, religion and sexuality never mattered before.

You're obviously too young or inexperienced to understand though 'sara' :/

Herald of Doom

08-02-2006, 09:22 PM

and in accomplishing the right to scream "GBLT friendly" you have handed the right to countless others to scream "NO GBLT's" or "NOT GBLT friendly" ostrasizing yourselves and stirring up an opposite reaction where NONE previously existed.

Congratulations.
People never seem to realise how often the hand the ammo to their firing squad.

I think I'll start my own not-GBLT-friendly-guild, just to make my point. If they warn/ban me I'll sue too and get them to change the ToS, woohoo !

HoD

PrismaticEcho

08-02-2006, 10:44 PM

I think I'll start my own not-GBLT-friendly-guild, just to make my point. If they warn/ban me I'll sue too and get them to change the ToS, woohoo !

HoD

Good luck with that.;)

Trixtin

09-02-2006, 03:30 AM

After reading through the many threads, it has become clear to me that there is a big misunderstanding as to what the laws of the land can enforce on a product of a business such as Blizzard or its parent company.

First, there is a difference between the company of Blizzard itself, and its creation, the World of Warcraft. For example, there are several laws that prohibit the discrimination of race, gender, sexual-orientation, religion, etc. with regards to employment. This would prohibit Blizzard from not hiring a person based on such. Some of these would extend to services offered by say a bar, restaurant, or insurance company.

The creation that is the World of Warcraft is a very different matter all together. World of Warcraft is a fantasy world that was created by Blizzard. They have all the rights to this world. They could have created a world that did not even have sexes. They might have decided not to have humans in it. It could have been just elves and orcs that were all unisex. In this world, they have even created prejudices that exist between the races that exist in it, and encourages players to roleplay the prejudices in the world they created. Players may kill others within this world and there are rules about how the game is played and who may play it. No one has a right to set these rules except Blizzard. It has absolutely nothing to do with the actual building Blizzard may reside with within the real world.

If I created my own multi-user dungeon and broadcasted it from my home network I would have the same rights to it that Blizzard has with its World of Warcraft. For example, I could refuse access if I simply thought someone was ugly. I could tell people what channels they can speak on, and could give different users different rights. I might even refuse some players the ability to speak at all. These decisions would be mine to make on any whim. Blizzard may also do the same with its World of Warcraft.

If Sara or Lamda Legal pursued this to its fruition, the case would likely be thrown out. I really can not imagine a judge would be stupid enough not to. Blizzard now is trying to avoid as much bad publicity as possible, and I can't blame them. The great majority of people in this country lack critical thinking skills, which is also likely the reason for the misunderstanding I mentioned to begin with. The current poll results for this thread verify this.

I hope Blizzard does not completely cave on this issue because that could set a terrible precedent. I only wish, that both sides of this could understand where each other is coming from. I understand Sara's frustration at not being able to advertise her guild on open chat, but she could have easily advertised in other ways that were within the Bliizzard terms of service. I also hope people realize that Blizzard is not trying to discriminate or silence anyone. Blizzard simply wishes to keep certain topics off the public channels, and have good reason to do so. The GM's did not have any agenda, they simply were doing their jobs in the best way they knew how. I fear however, this may fall on deaf ears, and that the clarity of my words may be muddled by those that fail to open their eyes and see past their assumptions and prejudices.

PrismaticEcho

09-02-2006, 03:41 AM

http://www.innewsweekly.com/innews/?class_code=Ga&article_code=1241

FANTASTIC! They're creating a guild recruitment channel that EVERYONE is allowed to recruit in! And they're putting their 1,000 GMs through "sensitivity training" to make sure this doe not happen again!!! Here are my email correspondences it the Head of Global Customer Service (Bottom to Top):

I think that's a WONDERFUL idea Thor! Thank you very much for getting back to me and answering my questions. Again, I'm sorry that the incident came to this, but I tried time and time again to get contact info (email or phone #) for the GMs' superiors and was refused each time. I didn't feel, from reading the actual policy, that Blizzard felt the way that the GMs were representing. This was the only way that I had to reach someone who could assist me with the problem. Again, thank you very much for your assistance!

~
Sara E Andrews

From: "Thor Biafore" email deleted
To: "Sara Andrews" email deleted
Subject: RE: World of Warcraft account follow-up
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 14:45:38 -0800

Hi Sara,

Thanks very much for the follow-up. I'm happy to inform you that we'll
be creating a Guild Recruitment channel so that your guild and others
can recruit in-game as well as on our website via the Guild Recruitment
forum. Once the new channel is implemented, this will be the appropriate
place for guild recruitment to take place in game, but otherwise, the
same policies will apply as relates to in-game conduct.

I again want to say that I regret the unfortunate policy interpretation
and the manner in which that was communicated to you, but I hope the
above information answers your question satisfactorily. Please feel free
to contact me further if you have any other questions.

Sincerely,

Thor Biafore
Senior Manager of Global Customer Service
Blizzard Entertainment

-----Original Message-----
From: Sara Andrews email deleted
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:20 AM
To: Thor Biafore;email deleted
Subject: RE: World of Warcraft account follow-up

Thor,

I appreciate your attempt to clear things up. I honestly didn't think
that this was how Blizzard felt, since the policy quoted to me was OBVIOUSLY put there to keep people from harassing the glbt community. However, after NUMBER of attempts at getting contact info for someone of higher authority and your GMs ignoring my request each time, I was left with taking the emails to the press in hopes of getting word to you about how your staff is acting. It was completely unacceptable!

It only went further from there. I STILL have people sending me emails
from GMs, where they are trying to say that glbt friendly guilds are STILL
not allowed to advertise as such in general. Is this going to be cleared up with your GMs, so that this doesn't happen again?

Finally, you said that your current policies are "under review". Does
this mean that you may change the policy so that glbt friendly guilds cannot
advertise in general, and if so. . . will it be changed that NO guild
can advertise in general so that it isn't discriminatory?

Thank you very much for your time and attention on this very important
matter. I'm terribly sorry that it had to escalate this way, but your
GMs gave me no other choice. It's rediculous that they refuse to give
contact info for their superiors. I do not believe that they are the final say
so in these situations (especially when they're obviously twisting the
policy to fit their own personal agenda) and I feel that it's sad that the only
way to reach someone like you is through poor media publicity. Nonetheless,
I'm glad that I finally reached you. Thanks!

~
Sara E Andrews

From: "Thor Biafore" <TBiafore@blizzard.com> email deleted
To: email deleted
Subject: World of Warcraft account follow-up
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:20:31 -0800

Hi Sara,

I'm Thor Biafore, head of Blizzard customer service worldwide. I'd like
to thank you for bringing your recent concerns to our attention, and to
extend our apologies for any inconvenience this has caused you or your
guild. The action that was taken by our customer service representative
was an unfortunate interpretation of our current policies, which are
currently under review. This was ultimately escalated to my attention,
and after reviewing all the details, I have had the warning removed
from your account.

Please accept our apologies for the way our staff characterized your
conduct, and rest assured that your account will not be penalized in
any way for this occurrence. I'd be happy to discuss this with you further,
so please feel free to contact me directly at >phone number omitted<.

Sincerely,

Thor Biafore
Senior Manager of Global Customer Service
Blizzard Entertainment

Deleted the email addresses // Æ

Kellas

09-02-2006, 06:04 AM

That's great sara. Guild recruitment channel... I think it's somewhere in this thread, several people came to that conclusion too.
I like that idea, no offense, but I can turn it off.
It means less spam in general, on top of all else.

See you in the world.
Don't be a stranger that the crisis is averted.

catfive

09-02-2006, 11:24 AM

giant bacon lettuce and tomato sandwiches ftw!

bud

09-02-2006, 02:02 PM

<snip>

actually, as far as i know, they can't impose any rule that they wish upon their customers. and if this was taken to court, there probably _would_ have been a case.
just as a restaurant cannot refuse to service a customer without a solid reason or due to, say, racial discrimination; blizzard is not free to impose any rule that they wish. yes it does make sense that if you _own_ the restaurant you should be free to choose your customers. but the sociecty has created rules against discrimination, and has thus taken the shopowners _natural_ right to refuse service. this is very similiar to rules against unlawful competetion (or whatever it is called).

Hrungnir

09-02-2006, 04:13 PM

jibbrish

09-02-2006, 04:54 PM

spatten

09-02-2006, 06:39 PM

I for one don't see this ending well. Where do you draw the line? Do we need pro/anti abortion guilds, BDSM favourable guilds, Liberatarian guilds?

Do we need to create a specific environment for every variety of moral, ethnic, religious and sexual preference/(orientation)?

Or can people just leave behind the baggage or agenda's of their real life and find joy in the fanstay of Azeron?

Edited after reading more posts in this thread:

I would just like to add - that although the subject of this incident might have found a legal backing for her actions and discovered problems with the TOS all of this could have been avoided by using a little forethought and social grace. Does the idea of LGBT or sexual orientation really deserve a place in this game? Rather than championing her particiular belief, had she quietly and nicely accepted Blizzard's request to keep it out of the game there would have been no problems.

Trepidation

09-02-2006, 06:48 PM

A while ago I posted on how I could understand where Blizzard was coming from. At that time I was under the impression this was a "Blizzard" decision and not a rogue GM (limited information). Some people took that as defending blizzard and not defending you. My point was I could see Blizzard's logic at that point....no matter how wrong it was. Human is as human does.

In truth, what happened to you was just wrong. You had no intention of using your sexual lifestyle as a mechanism to intentially hurt others. What you were trying to build a nicer place for people with a common thread (isn't that what a guild is?) and got broadsided.

What i'm even more impressed about (even though if legally driven) is that Blizzard did act within a reasonable period of time. The very obvious fact that this was resolved in under a year w/o courts just blows me away. I'm glad you kept your course and made something good out of it.

-tReP

moopy

09-02-2006, 06:54 PM

GJ Sara, it was a stand worth taking, even if your motives and thought processes won't always be fully understood by the stereotypically naive gamer demographic. You did the right thing with civility and grace, and I salute you.

There will be a few angry bigots, there always are, it's one of life's little certainties. However, it sounds like you're not the sort of person to be easily thrown by that sort of nonsense.

I am deeply impressed that you managed to get Blizzard to say something other than "working as intended" on any topic, mind you.

egoz

09-02-2006, 07:29 PM

Sara, thank you for your efforts!

And, congrats to Blizzard in putting together a good solution (e.g., GM policies-training, recruit_channel). American values of liberty and freedom survive again in the digitalworld.

--
Jacov @ C_Circle Realm

Renceward

09-02-2006, 07:41 PM

I think that Blizzard's solution is inspired. It pleases both sides and it is rare that when dealing with a volatile issue like this, that a reasonable compromise can be found.

Of course we still need to see the implementation of this. Here are my thoughts:

The channel should be on by default – if the channel is off by default, the vast majority of folks will never know about it. Guild Recruitment is of benefit to most of the players so it should be on by default, just like LFG, Trade etc.

The channel should span major cities, just like LFG and Trade do now.

The GMs should have a clear and consistent policy for enforcing the use of the Guild Recruitment channel. It should be used for both Guild looking for members, and Player looking for Guild. This should be the only channel where these types of messages are permitted. I think that after this is implemented, the player base will do a good job of telling folks to take it to the Guild Recruitment channel. If a player does not, the punishment should be based on the fact that they are doing Guild Recruitment outside of the proper channel, and the nature of their Guild Recruitment shouldn’t enter into it. Looking for GLBT-friendly guild, Christian guild looking for members, High-end raiding guild recruiting, I need four more people to sign my guild charter etc should all be treated exactly the same if they are done outside of the Guild Recruitment channel.

The other aspect of enforcement is still where is the line drawn on guilds. I would assume that they will still prohibit pedophile guilds, drug trafficking guilds etc. Blizzard management needs a clear definition of what is and isn’t permitted and they need to make sure that ALL of their GMs are aware of it and apply it equally. GMs should probably have a place where they can send reports of questionable guilds for review by higher-ups, rather than making a unilateral decision themselves.

Herald of Doom

09-02-2006, 09:38 PM

The other aspect of enforcement is still where is the line drawn on guilds. I would assume that they will still prohibit pedophile guilds, drug trafficking guilds etc. Blizzard management needs a clear definition of what is and isn’t permitted and they need to make sure that ALL of their GMs are aware of it and apply it equally. GMs should probably have a place where they can send reports of questionable guilds for review by higher-ups, rather than making a unilateral decision themselves.
Aha. And who decides which guild is acceptable and which is not? This is EXACTLY why saras guild shouldnt have been allowed. Who is Blizzard to decide what ideas can be formed into a guild and which cant? I am anti-gay. I decide to make a guild. Why can gay people form a guild while anti-gays cant? Muslism/jewish/christian/communist/liberal whatever guilds all around, woooohoooo. Imo the only criteria for a guild should be ingame factors. And yes, being active counts as ingame factor too since it only reveals you have way too much time :p Oh and as mentioned before, theres a good reason for language based guilds but you can base those too really ^^

HoD

Renceward

09-02-2006, 10:11 PM

Harold - it might help if you would pay attention to what has actually happened as opposed to what you may have think happened.

Blizzard is absolutely the one to decide these things. Of course their decisions can be challanged. Sara was told that her advertisement was not allowed and then quoted a section of the policy that had nothing to do with anything (she was actually quoted the forum policy for an in-game action and the policy only talked about offensive/harassing use of language related to sexual orientation). So of course Sara challanged the decision.

Blizzard NEVER had a policy against advertising a GLBT-friendly guild, they never had and still don't. It was a single GM who cooked this policy up all on their own and Blizzard has stated that this is not company policy.

Also Blizzard will draw a line as to what guilds can and cannot advertise. There were a lot of folks who were upset with the perception that Blizzard had drawn the line such that GLBT-friendly guilds couldn't advertise. This is permitted in most (if not all) other MMORPGs and many folks felt it a matter of simple fairness. Lots of Blizzards decisions are portested in the sense that folks post about them, game websites deal wtih them etc. And every now and then Blizzard does change their mind.

In this case Blizzard never changed their mind. They simply righted a wrong committed by a rogue GM. So it would seem that you are the one who now has a problem with Blizzard's policy and is demanding that they change it. It seems that you are strongly opposed to the policy that Blizzard currently has and always has had. Go write to Blizzard, find some gaming-related websites to take up your cause, such as it is. I don't think you'll have much luck, as anti-stances are rarely popular. Folks tend to be inclusive rather than exclusive. Oh and don't forget to cancel your WOW account until Blizzard changes its evil ways.

djiss

09-02-2006, 10:28 PM

I'm so sick of this PC BS. Of course they've retracted what they said, after she made a huge fuss out of it and it made national papers. They don't want that sort of press over any issue, especially something as political as this.

Saying "i'm going to pick up my girlfriend" does *not* drag your sexuality into the chat. You could be male/female, whatever. Until someone actually throws examples of them allowing advertisement of "hetero-friendly" guilds, there's no argument that they weren't applying the rules equally.

As this case has pointed out, creating any sort of group specifically for a minority ONLY EXACERBATES THE PROBLEM. Had her group merely been GLTB-friendly without making advertising that as one of their main purposes, no one would have noticed or cared. Instead there's this giant issue.

I'm not saying anyone needs to hide their sexuality (or that anyone's sexuality is wrong) but you get along with people a lot better if you don't shout personal information that you know they're going to have a problem with in their faces.

I don't run into a town meeting in the middle of the bible belt and scream *I'm an atheist. I'm looking for other athiests to be my friends!* You're just starting trouble. And that's what this seems about to me, more than the fact that Blizzard's policy might theoretically inconvenience some random minority group.

The suspension was wrong, but I was under the impression that they revoked that almost immediately, and changed things to just asking that she use the forums (where if there's a big flame war, it won't impact people's enjoyment of the game that they're paying to play) instead of the general chat. It's not the policy that I would have, but I don't see the big deal with it, either.

I agree with him. Yes the problem is that 1 GM take dumb decision but in the beginning, someone was offend to see Gay/Lesbian thing in the game he played, so he reported her. It's a dumb reaction too. But what the purpose of a guild GLBT-friendly? I don't think they chat all day long about how they like to be GLBT-friendly... To be tagged and show people who you are? Cool, now you're, and? They want to be treat like everyone else and not like a special group, different people but they expose them self like a special group.

I'm from Montreal, Canada. Every year, we had a Gay/Lesbian Parade. Street are blocked to let a parade of hundread half-naked guy/women. I think that could offensive for certain type of people but they have the right to do that. If, as an heterosexual, try to do an Heterosexual Parade, I'll just look silly and get a police escort to nearest police station. So don't talk about drawing a fair line, she'll not be straight anyway so why drawing one?

I hope I'm wrong but sometime I think they do that for the purpose to be see. "Talk about it in good or in bad, but talk about it!" but they seem don't like the "or in bad," part. If you tell out loud "I'm gay", it will probably awake the guy who like to flame against gay. Don't hide yourself, but don't over-expose yourself too.

And where this thing will end? When the next parade pass and I shut of TV to play to WoW, will I see this kind of Parade in midldle of Ogrimmar or Ironforge? (Darnassus should be a more suitable place for that :laughing: )
I really hope no.

Sorry if I offend someone, but if you got the right to say out loud "I'm Gay, respect me", I got the right to tell "I don't wanna know, respect me for that too".

:thumbsup: peace

PrismaticEcho

09-02-2006, 10:51 PM

Who is Blizzard to decide what ideas can be formed into a guild and which cant?

HoD

Ummm. . . "It's Blizzard's game and they can do what they want" right?

Herald of Doom

09-02-2006, 10:59 PM

Harold - it might help if you would pay attention to what has actually happened as opposed to what you may have think happened.
Herald please ;)

Blizzard is absolutely the one to decide these things. Of course their decisions can be challanged. Sara was told that her advertisement was not allowed and then quoted a section of the policy that had nothing to do with anything (she was actually quoted the forum policy for an in-game action and the policy only talked about offensive/harassing use of language related to sexual orientation). So of course Sara challanged the decision.
Hm. Well in my experience Gm's decisions hardly ever get challenged. It's not until media/lawyers got involved Blizzard said their GM did anything wrong.

Blizzard NEVER had a policy against advertising a GLBT-friendly guild, they never had and still don't. It was a single GM who cooked this policy up all on their own and Blizzard has stated that this is not company policy.
OK, then why didnt they just allow it instead of making a seperate guildrecruit channel for it? that's the thing that puzzles me the most, if it was indeed just the case of a sole GM doing evil unto our gay buddies then why not just its allowed and get it over with? Instead they only sent apologies after MASSIVE negative press attention and after several emails supporting the GM.

Also Blizzard will draw a line as to what guilds can and cannot advertise.
INDEED. My point exactly. In this case Blizzard (or one GM) decided gay friendly guilds shouldnt exist. So, next time Blizzard bans someone for some other guild the banned person should also create a storm in a glass of water and contact a lawfirm to force blizzard into making it allowed? Because the first official Blizzard emails supported the GM thereby creating a precedent. See my point?

In this case Blizzard never changed their mind. They simply righted a wrong committed by a rogue GM. So it would seem that you are the one who now has a problem with Blizzard's policy and is demanding that they change it. It seems that you are strongly opposed to the policy that Blizzard currently has and always has had. Go write to Blizzard, find some gaming-related websites to take up your cause, such as it is. I don't think you'll have much luck, as anti-stances are rarely popular. Folks tend to be inclusive rather than exclusive. Oh and don't forget to cancel your WOW account until Blizzard changes its evil ways.
In what frikkin way am I anti anything? Oh, yes, I am guilty of hoping for a game where RL issues aren't a factor in creating a guild. I am anti-favouritism. Because,face it, being gay is a way of living your life. I personally believe you're born with it and its not a disease and all that crap some people say but how different would a gay guild be opposed to say a white guild. Maybe these people were born or raised from an early age to hate other skintypes. And dont come talking about "oh no, its only a gay-friendly guild its not a gay-only guild", I can add friendly behind almost anything. White-friendly is a nice way of saying no blacks/hispanics, go prove it.

PS:Unlike some other people I dont go mental over a game and cancel my account for which I payed money. None of this has had or will have any impact on my WoW experience. ;)

Ummm. . . "It's Blizzard's game and they can do what they want" right?
So why did you protest their GM's decision?

HoD

PrismaticEcho

09-02-2006, 11:08 PM

djiss

09-02-2006, 11:56 PM

I was being sarcastic. . . I wasn't answering your question because it's quite obvious to see where the line would be drawn. There is nothing wrong with a Christian guild or Muslim guild. . . guilds whose foundations aren't based on hate or harming others. Anti-gay guilds. . . come ON! If you can't see the difference in an exclusive and inclusive guild (or a harmful or non-harmful guild), then I don't know how to make it any clearer for you. But I think it's rather obvious where one draws the line. If you don't see how obvious it is, then just sit and ponder I guess. . . it's easily figured out if one puts forth a little thought.

Let say I create an (WhateverReligion)-friendly guild... what the point? Oh I just want other people from that (WhateverReligion) to play with me and me with them. What I have done? I tag myself and people I want to play with.

Now, if people don't like my (WhateverReligion), they'll probably make harmful comment against me. And I can report them cause I have the right to do that. The guy is wrong to make bad comment against me on this subject. It's not acceptable.

But at the begining, I bring a "sensitive social subject" in the game and I don't think it's his place.

Personnally, I don't care what you do in bed with him/her/them/that.
I don't care which god you pray.

But please, let WoW be what it should be, a game.
A game without any RL sexual preference, RL religion or any sensitive social subject. It's bring nothing good, just make more problem, the kind of real life problem people try to forget while they play a game.

Valas Azuviir

10-02-2006, 12:10 AM

Aha. And who decides which guild is acceptable and which is not? This is EXACTLY why saras guild shouldnt have been allowed. Who is Blizzard to decide what ideas can be formed into a guild and which cant? I am anti-gay. I decide to make a guild. Why can gay people form a guild while anti-gays cant? Muslism/jewish/christian/communist/liberal whatever guilds all around, woooohoooo. Imo the only criteria for a guild should be ingame factors. And yes, being active counts as ingame factor too since it only reveals you have way too much time :p Oh and as mentioned before, theres a good reason for language based guilds but you can base those too really ^^

HoD

Because GLBT people are protected by the California civil rights laws, when it comes to business and being refused service or treated unequally (http://writ.corporate.findlaw.com/grossman/20050809.html).

Whereas, social/political beliefs are not mentioned in the Civil Rights Act of 2005. And while said Act is illustrative rather than definitive, there is the small matter that businesses do have the right to restrict free speech up to a certain degree, in order to protect others from harrassment. As, you may notice in the previous link, the Justices compared the rules of the social club to the Unruh Act or to be more exact the Bane ammendment, which was added to it. They rightly noted that Bane was enacted to deal with the type of discrimination in which the country club was engaging.

Having said that, hotels/motels/convention centers etc have the right to refuse to accomodate or provide venue to groups, who they deem to be undesirable, as long as said undesirability is based upon social/political reasons, as opposed to sex, color, race, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, marital status, or sexual orientation, than it is allowed. So groups like the KKK and arguably the Nation of Islam can be refused service, though when dealing with the latter, it does tend to help if regular muslims are allowed to make use of the facilities, thus giving clear proof that the refusal has to do with their political as opposed to their religious ideas.

But we're getting slightly side tracked.. This is NOT about gay guilds. It never was, this was about GLBT-friendly guilds. There is a very very big difference between the two concepts. A gay guild could conceivably engage in discriminatory practises with regards to heterosexuals, just like heterosexual guilds have done with gays. That would make the gay club no better than the heterosexual guilds, which have kicked gay members for their sexual preference.

A GLBT-friendly guild is about non-discrimination, whereas your anti-gay guild would not meet that standard, and thus would run afoul of Blizzard's code of conduct with regards to how other players need to be treated aka no harrassment allowed.

And it has to be noted that technically language/nationality oriented guilds are also protected by this Act, even though the use of a foreign language can be construed as using masking language to hide speech which would be deemed in violation of Section 3 B (i) of the ToU: Transmit or post any content or language which, in the sole and absolute discretion of Blizzard Entertainment, is deemed to be offensive, including without limitation content or language that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, hateful, sexually explicit, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable, nor may you use a misspelling or an alternative spelling to circumvent the content and language restrictions listed above;

The underlined bits btw would be where your anti-gay guild would run into trouble, considering that discrimination based upon sexual orientation is unlawful in California. And in addition it's rather likely that an anti-guild will have a code of conduct, which is at odds with the ToU and in-game behaviour policies, and thus it would be lawful for Blizzard to dissolve your guild and possibly ban members who have violated the aforementioned policies and ToU.

But what the purpose of a guild GLBT-friendly? I don't think they chat all day long about how they like to be GLBT-friendly...

Nope, they talk about what instances they're going to raid, if anyone has acquired the skills to make an Arcanite reaper for the tanks, asking for help on getting their epic Paladin or Warlock Mount etc. It's really no different from a regular guild, just that you have the assurance that they won't flip out, if you mention that you need to go because the BF, GF, Wife, or Husband is giving you the evil eye for not helping with the dishes or something. :grin:

Number of guilds are GLBT friendly and don't even recognize it, technically they could advertize themselves as such, because they too do not make an issue out of it. Just rather hard for a GLBT or open minded person to know which guilds are mature to handle these types of things and which are not, considering the sheer number of guilds in the game. GLBT-friendly tag is just that, a tag to make it easier to say. Ok, this one I want to try out or not. Depending on your PoV.

OK, then why didnt they just allow it instead of making a seperate guildrecruit channel for it? that's the thing that puzzles me the most, if it was indeed just the case of a sole GM doing evil unto our gay buddies then why not just its allowed and get it over with? Instead they only sent apologies after MASSIVE negative press attention and after several emails supporting the GM.

a) Because Blizzard is woefully inept at PR when it comes to foul ups at their end.
b) Internal politics, it's fairly safe to wager that the GM heads fought tooth and nail against the overruling of their guy, even if he was in the wrong. It's the usual turf politics, you'll find that in nearly every organization really.
c) Because their own boards showed that they had a serious number of bigots on board, so creating a seperate guild recruitment channel would lead to a "seperation" of the two groups to a certain degree.

Plus, it helps prevent some numbskull politician or Jack Thompson for that matter, about how WoW is perverting the youth of America, regardless of the numbers of adults playing the game or that you have to be of legal age to enter the ToU agreement with Blizzard, and seducing them into depravity and homosexuality. And there are plenty of such politicians running around the American political arena, unfortunately.

In what frikkin way am I anti anything? Oh, yes, I am guilty of hoping for a game where RL issues aren't a factor in creating a guild. I am anti-favouritism. Because,face it, being gay is a way of living your life. I personally believe you're born with it and its not a disease and all that crap some people say but how different would a gay guild be opposed to say a white guild. Maybe these people were born or raised from an early age to hate other skintypes. And dont come talking about "oh no, its only a gay-friendly guild its not a gay-only guild", I can add friendly behind almost anything. White-friendly is a nice way of saying no blacks/hispanics, go prove it.

How about you prove that GLBT friendly is anti-heterosexual, which is what you're stating..

I mean, we already have Barbelos, whose guild is GLBT, we could ask Sara if she'd have one of the straight members of her guild post here, then there is Renceward (I think), Spirit Walker has said that his guild is essentially GLBT as well, though they're one of those regular guilds who do not advertise it, because they don't even realize they qualify for that tag, due to their more mature membership.. Course there is the issue on whether or not you'd even want to believe some total strangers on the I-net.

And as I pointed out, white folks generally aren't discriminated against for the colour of their skin. So a white friendly guild really isn't necessary in WoW, same applies to most other ethnic based guilds, will the sole excpetion currently being the Asians/Asian-Americans or other such hybrids, due to the whole Chinese goldfarmer image that they have to deal with.

djiss

10-02-2006, 12:57 AM

Good post Valas Azuviir. I understand more the gay/lesbian reason. If they say "I need to go, whatever boyfriend reason", they don't fear to be see someone write "But you're a guy!" and be flamed by a moron.

But beside that, doe we need to know? Even if we want to know, you're not forced to tell us.
Exemple : (I'm a guy) I can tell "Sorry, gtg girlfriend need me" or "boyfriend need me". I case 1, you think I'm hetero, in the case 2, I'm gay. But in fact I got no bf or gf and I just quit cause it funnier to watch my dog run around trying to bite his tail for the next hour than make another run to Strath, but you understand I cannot tell you that reason.

My point is you bring personnal information when you're not forced. And even if you need to, you can lie. I mean, give personnal info is your choice. You can tell what you want, we don't have any manner to verify that.

So that why I ask about why specify "GBLT-Friendly".

Anyway, I think I'm out of subject now... so i'll stop here.

Cya ingame all and have many nice kill.

bwirum

10-02-2006, 01:21 AM

spatten

10-02-2006, 01:28 AM

I can't help but wonder as to the circumstances that required someone to create/advertise a LGBT friendly guild in the first place.

As a heterosexual male, I am not used to experiencing textbook sexual harassment. Oddly enough in WOW I got my first taste. As an male engineer that looks and talks to mostly men all day - I figured I would create a female toon for variety. I immeaditealy received strange flirts, odd comments, and whispers that just caught me off guard. I found some of the assupmtions people made very odd. Ok, so I felt a littel uncomfortable and didn't know how to respond.

But I laughed it off.

I left those people alone with their delusions. They stop eventually. I can't imagine it bad enough that I would ever feel threatened, truly harassed or discrminated. That is, at the core, what these laws are trying to stop from happening.

I can understand the sentiment to join a guild with like-minded people to avoid these problems. I hope that some people are aware of how much this feels like an agenda being shoved down our throats. I also hope people can also understand the sentiment of not wanting to have to fight modern era social issue in our few hours of leisure.

In the end I don't find it objectionable that Sara was advertising for this guild. I would like to think there are much better ways of handling the situation then resorting to lawsuits, media blitzes, and class action rigamarole.

The true shame is the Blizzard has probably lost time and money that they could have been using to test/improve their servers.

Seraphon

10-02-2006, 05:16 AM

I promised myself I wouldn't start posting in this thread, but now I just can't hold back anymore.

Q: Since in my guild, I don't know who are guys/men, who are girls/women, if any of them are married, if any of them are partners with anyone of the same sex, how old they are, which color skin they have, what religion they belong to, don't I then technically belong to a GLBTWHB-insert ethnic, sexual or religious group here-friendly guild?

We've never advertized it. But isn't it? Does it really matter? Isn't this a virtual world where people come to break away from everyday stress? Don't I deserve NOT to hear what problems or issues people have in their everyday lives all the time? Can't we leave this world... virtual?

Leave your private life at home. Come to Azeroth and be the gnome or orc that you deep down inside really want to be! And, well, if you're a male gnome and really wanna partner up with another male gnome, then.. well.. go ahead. Be my guest. /dance and /blow your hearts out. It's very close to V-day anyhow ;)

I've heard this argument again and again. it is irrelevant.

Not everyone plays the game the same way you do. Some guilds are associations of RL friends who talk about their RL stuff. Others are guilds where people just like talking about their lives. I haven't been in a guild where folks didn't chat away about their lives. It's a social game.

If you don't want to bring your RL stuff into the game, don't. But don't tell everyone else how they should play the game that they are paying for.

porps

10-02-2006, 06:15 AM

PrismaticEcho

10-02-2006, 09:21 AM

wow this thread is lasting for ever, i guess ill make a comment for the sheer hell of it.

basically, i, like many others, dont understand why they had to advertise themselves as being gay friendly. Its fine for them to be gay friendly, in fact i have never come accross a guild that will only accept straight people as players, or even asks the questiion. By advertising themselves as such they will only attract attention from the minority (i hope) of moronic homophobes. Perhaps its not a minority, there seems to be a lot of morons on wow.
So why place a target on all your guild members backs by letting everyone know that you are gay friendly. Why is it even an issue?

Sure, be as gay friendly as you want but if you advertise the fact you can be sure that some homophobic little kids (who probably secretly look at playgirl) are gonna single your guild out as being gay (as opposed to just openminded)

"Why advertise? Why advertise? Why advertise???" I keep hearing that. Why does ANYONE advertise? The answer: To let people know what you're about, so that they know if they want to join your guild or not! Imagine that!!! I advertise as glbt friendly in order to let the bigots know that this is NOT the guild for them, and to let the glbt people and glbt friendly people know that this is a place you can come where you don't have to put up with all the bigoted language that is used all too often in the game. It's really QUITE simple. The same reason anyone advertises. . . and we're NOT one of these non-social guilds, so please don't argue "well you shouldn't even talk about the real world with your guild". I'm NOT on a roleplaying server for the VERY reason that I like being MYSELF while I play. . . not some imaginary character. YOU may not be sociable with your guild when you play, but WE are! Don't like it? Don't understand it? Get over it. That's how we play. I don't question (or care) how you can possibly play without becoming friends with your guildmates, so why do you question (or care) how I play?

Herald of Doom

10-02-2006, 10:58 AM

I was being sarcastic. . . I wasn't answering your question because it's quite obvious to see where the line would be drawn. There is nothing wrong with a Christian guild or Muslim guild. . . guilds whose foundations aren't based on hate or harming others. Anti-gay guilds. . . come ON! If you can't see the difference in an exclusive and inclusive guild (or a harmful or non-harmful guild), then I don't know how to make it any clearer for you. But I think it's rather obvious where one draws the line. If you don't see how obvious it is, then just sit and ponder I guess. . . it's easily figured out if one puts forth a little thought.
Did you not READ what I said? Any anti-anything can be transformed into a friendly guild. Vlaams Belang, a political party in Belgium is against foreign people but they hardly ever say that, instead they are "pro-flemish people". Which is basically the same idea only put differently. I'm not saying gay-friendly guilds are anti-anything but OTHER "friendly" guilds might be. Straight-friendly guild, well: "I'm homophobic and I dont like to play around gay people so why not make one? We're not anti-anything are we, its just that any gay person to join us accidently wont get a share of the loot,hahah." You can't blame someone for not wanting to play with gay people if they have a genuine fear and if gay-friendly guilds are allowed can you?

so why do you question (or care) how I play?
Uhm, well your way of playing is what this thread is about no? Thousands of people manage to play in guilds just fine without mentioning personal stuff so why can't you? I can't imagine ever being friends with someone I meet online nor do I feel the need. Not once did I say "oh my gf is here" except to two people I know quite well for a lot longer than I play WoW. Is there not enough in the world of Azeroth to discuss? Can we not leave the same annoying stuff we face irl out of the most fun game since Diablo2? If you don't like RP why do you play an RPG? ^^

HoD

bwirum

10-02-2006, 12:29 PM

I've heard this argument again and again. it is irrelevant.

Not everyone plays the game the same way you do. Some guilds are associations of RL friends who talk about their RL stuff. Others are guilds where people just like talking about their lives. I haven't been in a guild where folks didn't chat away about their lives. It's a social game.

If you don't want to bring your RL stuff into the game, don't. But don't tell everyone else how they should play the game that they are paying for.
I truly don't care if people are gay. I have friends who are both gay and bi. But that's all in real life. When this gets put into a context like this you're bound to get stuff like this brought up. Since you pull into it that this is a game people pay to play, then why shouldn't any super-anti-gay person be in his full right to say what he wants? I mean, he does pay to play? It's not irrelevant my friend. Maybe to you, but not to many. You can't just put off an argument as irrelevant because *you* don't like it.

Anyhow, I wouldn't be the one to report Prismatic Echo for anything like this. I just couldn't care less. However, there are people out there with a blatant fear of people who are different in any way, shape or form. Say about them what you will, but they are there and pay the same amount of money to play this game as the next guy. So there we stand. Having to cater to all. Hard, isn't it?

Hawken

10-02-2006, 12:36 PM

So. . . ya. . . the GMs were wrong for doing what they did, sorry all you doubters! (hadda get that little bit of gloating in there. . .sorry LOL)

I hope you realize that things like this do nothing but delegitimize your "crusade" and make you look like an attention whore.

porps

10-02-2006, 03:57 PM

The fact remains that with a little forethought anyone with half a brain could have predicted that making it public that a guild is GBLF would make that guild and its players a target for homophobes. Perhaps this didnt bother you and your members, but it appears that it bothered blizzard, and i have to say i agree.
You see, on the one side theres the people that are in this GBLF guild. On the other there is homophobes. And somewhere, more than likely on every general chat channel in every major city on that server, these 2 are going to come into conflict.
In the middle you have the people who couldnt really give a rats arse either way, so long as they dont have to listen to the 2 sides argue with each other. You may well say well we wouldnt argue, we would just do /ignore. You think that stops the morons from yell spamming *insert guild name here* are all a bunch of fags (no offence intended, but this is what you could expect to hear and more). I dont want to have to block a bunch of people who i may otherwise have had no issue with. Blizzard are, quite rightly in my opinion, trying to avoid unnesercary conflict in thier game.

Look at it this way. I could make a guild called Nazi friendly. (yes this is taking it to the extreme but hear me out). Now im not saying i nor any of my members are nazis or even agree with nazi bull****, the name of the guild just implies that we wont discriminate againt nazis, and they are welcome to join if they wish. Doesnt it?
Such a name would only serve to cause conflict, its plain to see.
Whichever opinion you agree with, surely you must see that in a GAME which is supposed to be FUN, causing unecessercary conflict about what are in fact rather serious topics may well spoil OTHER peoples enjoyment.

(edited due to censorship make the post hard to understand.. lol -- its a female dog fgs, its in the dictionary and everything, how can you censor that!)

Hawken

10-02-2006, 04:13 PM

Nevermind.

Dark Matter

10-02-2006, 04:18 PM

T
(edited due to censorship make the post hard to understand.. lol -- its a female dog fgs, its in the dictionary and everything, how can you censor that!)

Very few words are censored on these forums. Most of those that are have been used to gratuitously insult members in the past - the others are the usual four-letter words that are unacceptable on a public forum.

porps

10-02-2006, 04:27 PM

Very few words are censored on these forums. Most of those that are have been used to gratuitously insult members in the past - the others are the usual four-letter words that are unacceptable on a public forum.

Ye sorry, the word that was censored can be used as an insult although it wasnt in this case, was no problem to reword it, im just in kind of a strange mood due to lack of sleep and not enough weed, so maybe the last bit came accross wrong, wasnt meant as an complaint or anything it just appealled in that moment to my warped sense of humour

PrismaticEcho

10-02-2006, 04:54 PM

catfive

10-02-2006, 05:10 PM

omfg is this thing still here?

Get over yourself already.

Dapalo

10-02-2006, 05:35 PM

This is my first post on this topic. I've been reading it for days and need to say one thing. The people who would form, advertise and join a GLBT guild aren't doing it because they want to stir up trouble, or make other people uncomfortable (which makes no sense since no one is being FORCED to join). They would join because they want to play with people who won't use terms like fag, homo, gay, etc in a derogarory manner. I'm hetero, almost all my friends are and I refuse to use the words gay, fag etc, not because I'm trying to be politically correct, but because my gay friends would be offended if they heard it. It's the same to me as saying ****** (the word that starts with N) around white people and then not saying it around my black friends. Blizzard made the person who wanted to join the GLBT guild as the bad-guy but the fact is it's the people who can't handle that there are gays who are playing the same game as them (even though they are doing it in the privacy of their own guild). Those are the people who need to grow up.

spatten

10-02-2006, 06:29 PM

"Why advertise? Why advertise? Why advertise???" I keep hearing that. Why does ANYONE advertise? The answer: To let people know what you're about, so that they know if they want to join your guild or not! Imagine that!!! I advertise as glbt friendly in order to let the bigots know that this is NOT the guild for them, (emphasis mine)

It is statements like this that make it painfully aware that you are not interested in making WOW a tolerant place for people with different beliefs. You are not seeking the higher ground and waging a war against dicrimination. You are merely trying to push your agenda and calling people that don't agree with you a "Bigot".

Enough said.

Hateblade

10-02-2006, 06:57 PM

And you can't possibly compare a GLBT Friendly guild and a Nazi Friendly guild. PLEASE!!! That argument has absolutely no reason whatsoever.

Why not? Because the Nazi leadership was responsible for the deaths of over 6 million people due to religious and political reasons!? This arguement has no reason to YOU, because of how you think and feel towards the subject. The arguement of GLBT has no reason to OTHERS, because of how they think and feel about it. You argue against Nazis, because you see thier acts as atrocious and wrong. I'd argue about GLBT because I see it as atrocious and wrong, due to religious reasons, and personal reasons of thinking it's friggin icky. However, I don't bring that up, because this is about having fun in a GAME. Things like this dont need to be brought into a form of entertainment. The fact that this is a very social game makes it hard to do so. Therefore, it becomes up to YOU to excercise judgement, and realize that it's not Blizzard's job to make everyone tolerent. Blizzard makes games, not politics.

My 2 cents.

jasoncueva

10-02-2006, 07:03 PM

First, there is a difference between the company of Blizzard itself, and its creation, the World of Warcraft. For example, there are several laws that prohibit the discrimination of race, gender, sexual-orientation, religion, etc. with regards to employment. This would prohibit Blizzard from not hiring a person based on such. Some of these would extend to services offered by say a bar, restaurant, or insurance company.

The creation that is the World of Warcraft is a very different matter all together. World of Warcraft is a fantasy world that was created by Blizzard. They have all the rights to this world. They could have created a world that did not even have sexes. They might have decided not to have humans in it. It could have been just elves and orcs that were all unisex. In this world, they have even created prejudices that exist between the races that exist in it, and encourages players to roleplay the prejudices in the world they created. Players may kill others within this world and there are rules about how the game is played and who may play it. No one has a right to set these rules except Blizzard. It has absolutely nothing to do with the actual building Blizzard may reside with within the real world.

If I created my own multi-user dungeon and broadcasted it from my home network I would have the same rights to it that Blizzard has with its World of Warcraft. For example, I could refuse access if I simply thought someone was ugly. I could tell people what channels they can speak on, and could give different users different rights. I might even refuse some players the ability to speak at all. These decisions would be mine to make on any whim. Blizzard may also do the same with its World of Warcraft.

If Sara or Lamda Legal pursued this to its fruition, the case would likely be thrown out. I really can not imagine a judge would be stupid enough not to. Blizzard now is trying to avoid as much bad publicity as possible, and I can't blame them. The great majority of people in this country lack critical thinking skills, which is also likely the reason for the misunderstanding I mentioned to begin with. The current poll results for this thread verify this.

I hope Blizzard does not completely cave on this issue because that could set a terrible precedent. I only wish, that both sides of this could understand where each other is coming from. I understand Sara's frustration at not being able to advertise her guild on open chat, but she could have easily advertised in other ways that were within the Bliizzard terms of service. I also hope people realize that Blizzard is not trying to discriminate or silence anyone. Blizzard simply wishes to keep certain topics off the public channels, and have good reason to do so. The GM's did not have any agenda, they simply were doing their jobs in the best way they knew how. I fear however, this may fall on deaf ears, and that the clarity of my words may be muddled by those that fail to open their eyes and see past their assumptions and prejudices.

I am by no means a legal buff but I do know a few things for sure:

a. Even to WoW is virtual world, the same rules apply to the entity that runs that world as far as discrimination laws. It doesn't matter that it is cyberspace. Think of it this way: what if AOL decided that it forbids its users from mentioning sexual orientation in any of its chatrooms? That is clearly discrimination. In some aspects, WoW is a very glorified chat room.
The fact is, even though the WoW is fictional, its races are fictional...the players are not. They are 100% human.

b. I've heard the argument: "if you don't like the rules f-off, deal with it". Things is, people shoulnd't "deal with it" when they are being discriminated. To give another example, what if a housing subdivision decided that it would have a rule to not allow any racial minorities to purchase a home in such subdivision. Should a latin or black person "deal with it" then?

c. If a person decided they want to form a private group (such as multiuser dungeon running from that person's basement) and they decided they had certain rules that discriminated against certain groups it is perfectly fine and legal. It is not legal however for a company with subscribers from the general PUBLIC who pay a fee to be part of that network to set rules that discriminate against them.

d. This is a very sad thing for both Blizzard and the gay community. It shoulnd't have escalated the way it did...but unfortunately it did and a lot of people who love WoW are mad a gays because of something that appears so insignificant. Who wants to see the beloved company that runs WoW sued by a small group who seems to be making a big unnecesary fuss? Truth is there was no suit filed, but it would have eventually if Blizzard did not take the (very smart) steps it took to correct the situation. And the big fuss, although affecting probably just a small number of players, is in reality an issue of civil rights. It's just fascinating to me how WoW is more than just a fictional world but it also reflects a lot of the aspects of the real world and that's what makes this game so great. There are humans behind those little characters, we add such a huge element of randomness and surprise to the game. Imagine what it would be like if there were only NPGs in all of Azeroth: not as much fun. It is natural for people to want to meet similar-minded people to play along. After all, you do become friends with those people after a little while and you want to know who the real person is.

PrismaticEcho

10-02-2006, 07:11 PM

Things like this dont need to be brought into a form of entertainment.

What you're basically saying is. . . "Things like YOU don't need to be brought into MY form of entertainment."

Guess what. . . we're here, and we're not going anywhere. Our "gayness" is going to follow us wherever we go. We can't very well leave it at home when we leave our houses. It's part of who we are. We're proud of who and what we are, and we're going to be ourselves regardless of whether you think we should be open about it or not. I see only one option for you really. . . get used to it. It's not going away.

spatten

10-02-2006, 07:33 PM

Guess what. . . we're here, and we're not going anywhere. Our "gayness" is going to follow us wherever we go. We can't very well leave it at home when we leave our houses. It's part of who we are. We're proud of who and what we are, and we're going to be ourselves regardless of whether you think we should be open about it or not. I see only one option for you really. . . get used to it. It's not going away.

I don't need any further proof that this whole rukus was the direct result of a gay pride agenda. People in this thread made good attempts to describe this incident as a citizen hassled by Blizzard who just wanted to improve WOW. I no longer accept that. This quote isn't going to earn you any support and neither is the trouble you have stirred up.

Herald of Doom

10-02-2006, 08:24 PM

What you're basically saying is. . . "Things like YOU don't need to be brought into MY form of entertainment."

Guess what. . . we're here, and we're not going anywhere. Our "gayness" is going to follow us wherever we go. We can't very well leave it at home when we leave our houses. It's part of who we are. We're proud of who and what we are, and we're going to be ourselves regardless of whether you think we should be open about it or not. I see only one option for you really. . . get used to it. It's not going away.
OK so what makes you so frikkin special that you can advertise how you live opposed to others? Like it or not but some religions see being gay as a sin so for many people you're insulting them and their religion by advertising your guild. You do not get special privileges for being different than the majority (well apparently you do and so do Christians, gogo Blizzard ::sarcasm::). It's not because YOU think its ok to be gay and not ok to be a nazi (bad example but meh) that everyone thinks so.

HoD

Valas Azuviir

10-02-2006, 08:53 PM

Why not? Because the Nazi leadership was responsible for the deaths of over 6 million people due to religious and political reasons!?

Just fyi, the Nazi's slaughtered Jews, Roma, GLBTs, Communists, Trade Unionists, the handicapped, people with Down Syndrome and related genetic disorders, Liberals, people of Slavic descent and I may have forgotten a group or two there.

One cannot in good conscience equate GLBT to the Nazi's. Doesn't matter how you try to justify it, the sheer magnitude in scale difference alone... I don't have the words for it..

Considering some of the hints you dropped, I suspect you're Christian.. If so, let me remind you of the following..

Judge not, and you will not be judged. (Luke 6:37)
Why do you see the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? (Matt. 7:3)
Let him among you without sin cast the first stone. (John 8:7)
No longer, judge one another, but judge this: that you do not put traps or obstacles in another’s path. (Rom. 14:3)
You judge according to the flesh, but I judge no one.(John 8:15)
No disciple is above the teacher. (Matt. 10:24)

Therefore, You are inexcusable O man, who ever you are who judges. You who judge do the same things yourself. For by the standard by which you judge another, you condemn yourself, since you the judge do the very same things.(Rom. 2 :1)
You who teach another do you teach yourself?(Rom. 2:21)
Why do you call Me Lord Lord and do not practice the things I say? (Luke 6:36)

For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, love thy neighbor as thyself. If you bite and devour one another, pay attention, or you will be consumed by one another.(Gal.5:14-15)
All men are of clay, for from earth, man was formed: yet with His great knowledge the Lord makes men unlike; indifferent paths has them walk.(Ecc.33:10-11)

Ask yourself this.. What would Christ do, and then recall how he dealt with the rejects of society, a murderer, lepers, a prostitute etc and dealt with them with kindness, love and respect. Now look at your own words and think about whether or not he'd approve of them.

My guess?? Nope.. He taught love and acceptance.. You're not showing a whole lot of that, quite the contrary imo. :embarassed:

Herald of Doom

10-02-2006, 08:57 PM

Ask yourself this.. What would Christ do, and then recall how he dealt with the rejects of society, a murderer, lepers, a prostitute etc and dealt with them with kindness, love and respect. Now look at your own words and think about whether or not he'd approve of them.

I dno what Christ himself would do but his representatives are against gay people. Point made,yay ! ;)

HoD

Valas Azuviir

10-02-2006, 09:14 PM

I dno what Christ himself would do but his representatives are against gay people. Point made,yay ! ;)

HoD

Not really.. Unless, of course you wish to justify Christianity's involvement with anti-semiticism throughout the centuries with that remark.. Or the justifications made for slavery, destruction of local culture and beliefs, torture, theft, and murder.. And I could go on a while.. Just because some human says that what they do is right, doesn't mean that what they are doing is actually right or just..

Kitsu

10-02-2006, 09:36 PM

This whole thread is pretty stupid. But I'll go ahead and throw in my 2c.

ok, so someone was advertising a GLBT guild, got reported, and then got a warning by Blizzard. It's just a warning. Who cares. You have to look at it from different views. The recruiter thought he was doing something good for the community, while the person who reported her took offense to it. The same thing would happen if I were to go out and advertise a guild for Christians. Someone out there will get offended or just wants to be an ass, and would report me. It's just like the whole banning of using the phrase "Merry Christmas" at some places. My friend said "Merry Christmas" to some guys who was walking out the door after picking up his food at the pizza shop we work at, and the guy just turns around and says "I'm not Christian" and walks away. Who the hell cares, he was just being curtious. It's the same damn thing as this whole debate. There is always someone out there that is going to take offense to anything you say to them.

Why can't you just advertise your guild to be a raid/bg or whatever type of guild you want it to be, without having to throw in, we are GLBT friendly? I don't see what satifaction someone would get for being in a GLBT guild? You might as well yell, look at me I'm the Rainbow Faries guild. We had to seclude ourselves so that others won't make fun of us. I'm sure someone out there has a guild that is for a bunch of black people, because they are being oppressed by the white man. I should go out and make a guild called White Boys or something, but then I would get reported for racism.

If your GLBT, good for you, I could care less. There is just no reason to seggrigate yourselves from everyone else.

jengelke

10-02-2006, 10:56 PM

I dno what Christ himself would do but his representatives are against gay people. Point made,yay ! ;)

HoD

You know I seem to recall two things that contradict this line of thinking.

The Crusades were a "holy" war where many of the European countries warred against the people of Israel to take back Jerusalem. In the process, they killed many people, though I'm unsure of the exact numbers. They were also trying to deny the people of Israel their own holy sites in Jerusalem.

One of the things that seems to go against this line of thinking is a simple phrase.

Thou shalt not kill.

Seems as though the Crusaders where killing in the name of God, which he never commanded, in fact, quite the opposite.

One other thing contradicts this line of thinking is that Chistianity, at least the last time I checked, teaches tolerance of others and their beliefs, and killing people to keep them away from their holy sites seems awful far from tolerance.

I have no problem with anyone advertising a particular niche guild at any time, just as long as it doesn't advocate hate, racism, sexism, or any other isms. I could care less, as I know several people who fall in the GLBT category who are a lot nicer and less idiotic than a lot of those that don't. To be honest, I know a few people that are in that category that are better Christians than those that call them sinners.

So, just because you say you're a Christian doesn't make it so, you actually have to practice what you preach. And just because you are a Christian doesn't mean everything you do is "in the name of God".

Just my 2 cents.

Dapalo

10-02-2006, 10:58 PM

If your GLBT, good for you, I could care less. There is just no reason to seggrigate yourselves from everyone else.

There IS reason though. Let's just say that you were in a guild where when people got destroyed in PVP or wiped in an instance they made negative comments towards your mom (yes YOUR mom). Wouln't that grate on you? Wouldn't you want to find a NEW guild that wouldn't call your mom dirty things? So what's wrong with a group of people who want a guild where people wont say derogaroty things about their sexual orientation. I'm sorry but whether they realise it or not ALOT of WOW players use terms like gay, fag and homo is a derogatory way and that's ALL these people want to get away from.

Seraphon

11-02-2006, 01:32 AM

Since you pull into it that this is a game people pay to play, then why shouldn't any super-anti-gay person be in his full right to say what he wants?

Because saying super anti gay things is harassment on the basis of sexual orientation.

By your line of reasoning the NAACP is the moral equivalent of the KKK. That's ridiculous. One organisation exists to defend the rights of people who are victims of discrimination and the other exists to attack people who are victims of discrimination.

Why not? Because the Nazi leadership was responsible for the deaths of over 6 million people due to religious and political reasons!? This arguement has no reason to YOU, because of how you think and feel towards the subject. The arguement of GLBT has no reason to OTHERS, because of how they think and feel about it. You argue against Nazis, because you see thier acts as atrocious and wrong. I'd argue about GLBT because I see it as atrocious and wrong, due to religious reasons, and personal reasons of thinking it's friggin icky. However, I don't bring that up, because this is about having fun in a GAME. Things like this dont need to be brought into a form of entertainment. The fact that this is a very social game makes it hard to do so. Therefore, it becomes up to YOU to excercise judgement, and realize that it's not Blizzard's job to make everyone tolerent. Blizzard makes games, not politics.

My 2 cents.

You are operating under the fantasy that everyone's beliefs have equal status no matter what they are. This is a common mistake people make when talking about liberal societies (Blizzard's harassment policies are intended to make the game world similar to the real world in this respect).

Liberal societies exist because there is fundamental disagreement between people about what sort of lives people ought to lead. These disputes are intractable. Trying to force everyone to do it the same way has a historical record that is depressing to say the least.

That's why we live in societies based on non-interference and tolerance. Everyone agrees not to force their own conception of the good life on anyone else in return for the same behaviour from others. So if you want to be gay or religious or whatever, that's your business. Regarding expression, people are allowed to talk about their beliefs and preferences in public and extend to everyone else the same privilege even if their beliefs and preferences are different from yours.

It is a mistake to think that such a system is "anything goes" when it comes to values. It is "anything goes" with regard to any set of values that does not violate its commitment to the value of non-interference. It is not neutral with regard to value systems like Nazism which seek to overturn that value. Hence, legal sanctions against Nazis and anyone else who seeks to overturn the principle of tolerance is fully justified and indeed required in order to preserve the liberal society.

Being gay does not have any necessary connection with anything that violates the principle of tolerance. Gay people simply want to live their lives and not be discriminated against because of something which is no one else's business and which affects no-one else. Nazis and racists on the other hand are against the principle of tolerance by definition (since they seek to interefere in the private lives of others that have no bearing on anyone else). So there is no moral equivalence between Nazis and homosexuals in a liberal society. The tolerant society must be intolerant of those who are intolerant in order to preserve the value of tolerance (there's no contradiction here).

The tolerant society also protects members of religions from state interference insofar as they do not attempt to force their religious values on everyone else. However, a minority of religious people want to overturn the liberal society in favour of their own conception of the good -- the state has every right, and indeed the obligation to prevent them from doing so. That is why there are laws separating church and state.

In a tolerant society, gays and Christians agree to tolerate the beliefs of the other in exchange for being tolerated by the other. Nazis and bigots are not prepared to do that, therefore there is no reason to tolerate them.

The same goes for World of Warcraft. Many different kinds of people play the game. It's better to have rules based on the idea that we tolerate differences in belief, than to have one portion of the playerbase force everyone else to accept their views. The GLBT people are not asking for everyone else to accept their views, they are asking for everyone else to abide by the social contract and not discriminate against them, in return for which they will not discriminate against everyone else.

A "white power" guild does not do that at all. A white power guild asking to be tolerated is a joke. They are asking everyone else not to discriminate against them, when they are discriminating against other people.

PrismaticEcho

11-02-2006, 03:05 AM

You are operating under the fantasy that everyone's beliefs have equal status no matter what they are. This is a common mistake people make when talking about liberal societies (Blizzard's harassment policies are intended to make the game world similar to the real world in this respect).

Liberal societies exist because there is fundamental disagreement between people about what sort of lives people ought to lead. These disputes are intractable. Trying to force everyone to do it the same way has a historical record that is depressing to say the least.

That's why we live in societies based on non-interference and tolerance. Everyone agrees not to force their own conception of the good life on anyone else in return for the same behaviour from others. So if you want to be gay or religious or whatever, that's your business. Regarding expression, people are allowed to talk about their beliefs and preferences in public and extend to everyone else the same privilege even if their beliefs and preferences are different from yours.

It is a mistake to think that such a system is "anything goes" when it comes to values. It is "anything goes" with regard to any set of values that does not violate its commitment to the value of non-interference. It is not neutral with regard to value systems like Nazism which seek to overturn that value. Hence, legal sanctions against Nazis and anyone else who seeks to overturn the principle of tolerance is fully justified and indeed required in order to preserve the liberal society.

Being gay does not have any necessary connection with anything that violates the principle of tolerance. Gay people simply want to live their lives and not be discriminated against because of something which is no one else's business and which affects no-one else. Nazis and racists on the other hand are against the principle of tolerance by definition (since they seek to interefere in the private lives of others that have no bearing on anyone else). So there is no moral equivalence between Nazis and homosexuals in a liberal society. The tolerant society must be intolerant of those who are intolerant in order to preserve the value of tolerance (there's no contradiction here).

The tolerant society also protects members of religions from state interference insofar as they do not attempt to force their religious values on everyone else. However, a minority of religious people want to overturn the liberal society in favour of their own conception of the good -- the state has every right, and indeed the obligation to prevent them from doing so. That is why there are laws separating church and state.

In a tolerant society, gays and Christians agree to tolerate the beliefs of the other in exchange for being tolerated by the other. Nazis and bigots are not prepared to do that, therefore there is no reason to tolerate them.

The same goes for World of Warcraft. Many different kinds of people play the game. It's better to have rules based on the idea that we tolerate differences in belief, than to have one portion of the playerbase force everyone else to accept their views. The GLBT people are not asking for everyone else to accept their views, they are asking for everyone else to abide by the social contract and not discriminate against them, in return for which they will not discriminate against everyone else.

A "white power" guild does not do that at all. A white power guild asking to be tolerated is a joke. They are asking everyone else not to discriminate against them, when they are discriminating against other people.

Marry me! :grin: HAHA! You're so articulate!!! I'm jealous!!!

porps

11-02-2006, 03:21 AM

Herald of Doom

11-02-2006, 03:39 AM

Marry me! :grin: HAHA! You're so articulate!!! I'm jealous!!!
He's articulate alright but he is still missing the freaking point. I am not talking about white power/rascist guilds. I am talking about white-friendly guilds. You prefer gay people to play with, I prefer white people to play with. There is no way in hell you'll be able to ban a white-friendly guild if you allow a gay-friendly guild because none of them actually prohibit anyone from joining do they? How do you prevent misusage? I don't expect rascist to go the brand new and oh so shiny guild recruit channel and go:

"recruiting for HitlerFans, the new rascist guild. Join us if you enjoy to torture blacks and hispanics"

Instead they'll go:

"Recruiting for 1337ProKillerz, the new top guild with a white-friendly environment. Join us if you want to have clean pvp fun"

PS:Oh and btw Seraphon, everyones beliefsystem is free and basically equal, its not until they force it unto someone else it gets illegal. You can't be sued for thinking rascist thoughts, but you can be sued for trying to get others to become rascist or do rascist things ;)

HoD

Seraphon

11-02-2006, 07:48 AM

i knew the nazi referrence would be misunderstood, but herein lies my point. It has sparked debate and arguement on this forum and would spark the same thing in game. The difference being that this is a place for discussion, and wow is a place for fun. I didnt at any point imply nazis and gay people are in any way similar, what i inferred was that making a guild for either of these groups would cause contraversy and arguement. The subsequent posts seem to prove my point.

I agree with most of this. WoW is a place for fun. Discussions and arguments about any political topic should be banned from General Chat.

But that's different from merely mentioning these things. I can imagine all sorts of situations where someone might reasonably say that they are gay, or a Mormon or whatever in General Chat, and not be doing so in order to start an argument. If someone does respond by starting an argument, then that person should be banned.

As it is, political arguments aren't really much of a problem, since the community seems to self censor anyway. Someone who starts on about Bush is usually told to STFU by about a dozen people depending on the zone in my experience. It's like a sports club, people don't like politics and other stuff messing up their fun, but I don't know of any sports club that prevents people from mentioning that they are gay or members of a certain political party or whatever, everyone else is just expected not to make a fuss about these things for the good of the club.

But Sara didn't want to do any of this. She just wanted to advertise for her guild and attract like minded (GLBT friendly) players. If someone wanted to hassle her over that, then they would be breaking the TOS and should be sanctioned.

Then theres the few that want to segregate themselves, and make that which is not anyone else business public knowledge. If you want to be treated just like everyone else stop making such an issue out of it. You can be proud of your sexuality without having to tell every single person you meet about it. Im proud to be hetrosexual, i dont go making hetro pride guilds now do i? No because my sexuality isis noones business.

Yes, there are a few. But let's be charitable here. There's no evidence that Sara is like this in game. From what I have read her guild is a GLBT friendly guild and not a gay pride guild - it's explicitly stated that it is not a GLBT only guild and half the membership is straight. I agree that your sexual orientation is no-one else's business, unless you choose to reveal it, but the purpose of GLBT friendly guilds is benign - they just want to group with players who won't hassle them for being gay and won't say derogatory things about homosexuals. People often talk about their SOs and love lives in some guilds, and in a GLBT friendly guild you can do that without fear of being attacked or kicked or otherwise given a rough time.

On the subject of being charitable: I suspect that most of the anti-gay stuff spewed in game is really not sincere. Kids say dumb stuff, and they especially delight in saying it when it's deemed "bad" by society.

Seraphon

11-02-2006, 07:52 AM

Marry me! :grin: HAHA! You're so articulate!!! I'm jealous!!!

That's not an impossible suggestion, since I currently live in Ontario. :wink:

However, I am a hetero, and a plain boring old vanilla one at that, who has been happily married for nearly ten years now.

Still, I did check out your site a while back and you're pretty cute. :wink:

Seraphon

11-02-2006, 08:07 AM

He's articulate alright but he is still missing the freaking point. I am not talking about white power/rascist guilds. I am talking about white-friendly guilds. You prefer gay people to play with,

She has never said that IIRC. She prefers playing with gay-friendly people. That's a pretty significant difference.

I prefer white people to play with. There is no way in hell you'll be able to ban a white-friendly guild if you allow a gay-friendly guild because none of them actually prohibit anyone from joining do they?

Let's say you mean a "white-friendly" guild rather than a "Whites only" guild. How many people in the game are actively prejudiced against white people?

I have seen one example of anti-white speech in my seven months of playing. The people who did it were me and a couple of my guildmates who were playing a prank on a new member. He'd made some disparaging comments about rap music, so I spontaneously said "How can you say that: this is a predominantly African-American guild, why do you white folks always beat us down?" The rest of the guild who were on (none of whom is black to my knowledge) immediately got in on the joke and started acting like militant members of the Black Panthers (I plagiarized most of my lines from Public Enemy). He spent a good ten minutes pleading that he wasnt a racist (to which the reply was: "That's exactly the sort of thing that racists say!") and apologizing (for nothing) until we let him in on the joke. He thought it was pretty funny in the end and he still mentions it every so often to new people.

On the other hand, I have seen a lot of serious racist talk in General, some of which is pretty hateful. But none of it approaches the level of abuse hurled at gays.

There just isn't a need for guilds to advertise themselves as white friendly because they all are by default, since white people are the vast majority in the game.

How do you prevent misusage? I don't expect rascist to go the brand new and oh so shiny guild recruit channel and go:

"recruiting for HitlerFans, the new rascist guild. Join us if you enjoy to torture blacks and hispanics"

Instead they'll go:

"Recruiting for 1337ProKillerz, the new top guild with a white-friendly environment. Join us if you want to have clean pvp fun"

Given the general lack of anti-white prejudice in the game, why would anyone say such a thing unless they were either racist or were just trying to get at minority friendly guilds?

Look at all the organizations that are supposedly advertised as white friendly. How many of them are not hate groups?

If this was China and people were advertising a "Chinese friendly" guild, it would be just as weird and probably racist as well (getting at Koreans or Americans or whoever).

PS:Oh and btw Seraphon, everyones beliefsystem is free and basically equal, its not until they force it unto someone else it gets illegal. You can't be sued for thinking rascist thoughts, but you can be sued for trying to get others to become rascist or do rascist things ;)

HoD

You can in many countries be prosecuted for stirring up hate. Some laws go too far, but there is nothing wrong in principle with acting against such people.

Herald of Doom

11-02-2006, 12:56 PM

She has never said that IIRC. She prefers playing with gay-friendly people. That's a pretty significant difference.

My bad, gay-friendly*

Let's say you mean a "white-friendly" guild rather than a "Whites only" guild. How many people in the game are actively prejudiced against white people?
That doesn't matter. It seriously doesn't. Does there need to be a certain level of hatespewing before someone can feel uncomfortable? Maybe I just don't like playing with different people at all because I'm extremely narrowminded. Or maybe I'm black and I want a black-friendly guild. I just took white-friendly as an example.

On the other hand, I have seen a lot of serious racist talk in General, some of which is pretty hateful. But none of it approaches the level of abuse hurled at gays.
See, that's where server differences come into play I guess. I've been paying REALLY close attention the past 7 days and I've seen maybe 10 cases of misusage of the words gay/ghey/whatever they make of it, and none of them were directly aimed at gay people. It was more the "omfg, this serverlag is so gheeeey" type of remarks. In all my time in WoW I haven't seen a single person attack someone gay directly. Truth be told, I haven't seen a lot of people mention the fact that they're gay either, iirc only 4-ish.

Look at all the organizations that are supposedly advertised as white friendly. How many of them are not hate groups?
Yes but that is my point. As long as you call it friendly-something nobody can say anything about it. For all I know Sara's guildmembers do nothing but mock straight people in the guildchannel. No way for us to know for sure ey? ;)

HoD

porps

11-02-2006, 03:04 PM

Yes, there are a few. But let's be charitable here. There's no evidence that Sara is like this in game. From what I have read her guild is a GLBT friendly guild and not a gay pride guild - it's explicitly stated that it is not a GLBT only guild and half the membership is straight. I agree that your sexual orientation is no-one else's business, unless you choose to reveal it, but the purpose of GLBT friendly guilds is benign - they just want to group with players who won't hassle them for being gay and won't say derogatory things about homosexuals. People often talk about their SOs and love lives in some guilds, and in a GLBT friendly guild you can do that without fear of being attacked or kicked or otherwise given a rough time.

I need to clarify my postion, because im not against the idea of a GBLF guild as such, even though it may come accross that way in my posts.
It isnt that i disagree with the guild, but that i agree with blizzard in this case.
I certainly respect saras or anyone else right to play with whomever they like, and impose whatever rules and pre-requisites they want in thier guild.
All im trying to point out is that sara has used poor judgement in advertising this guild. I understand the reasons why she wanted to advertise, but by doing so it will not only bring attention from the gblf people out there but also from the homophobes. This fact has forced blizzards hand somewhat, and as i've said before this whole debate could have been avoided had sara given the advertising and its knockon effects more forethought.

On the plus side from saras point of view, with all this publicity, she could now make a new guild and attract the same gblf crowd without making the policies known to blizzard, or perhaps blizzard may be aware of the policies but it would not be possible for anyone to prove that they are, and thus they wont feel forced into taking any action against it.

5zigen

11-02-2006, 03:19 PM

He's articulate alright but he is still missing the freaking point. I am not talking about white power/rascist guilds. I am talking about white-friendly guilds. You prefer gay people to play with, I prefer white people to play with. There is no way in hell you'll be able to ban a white-friendly guild if you allow a gay-friendly guild because none of them actually prohibit anyone from joining do they? How do you prevent misusage? I don't expect rascist to go the brand new and oh so shiny guild recruit channel and go\

No, you are still missing the point as you would understand if you had ever taken a course on discrimination in any form (african american studies, womens studies ect.).

There is no point in making a "white friendly guild" because this is the 'target'. It is what is expected. There is no such thing as a "white friendly guild" because EVERY guild is white friendly in wow. If you go into a guild and say "i'm white, i just dont want anyone to be suprised by that" no one is going to "omg your white? I dont think white people should be playing wow and I certainly dont think white people should be talking about their 'whiteness' in an online video game. Get out of my guild" you know why? Because it will never happen.

Everyone who plays wow is assumed to be a white male, by default, so making a white friendly guild, just like making a heterosexual friendly guild has no meaning. Because there is basically no one in wow who isnt friendly to heterosexuals. However there are many MANY people who are not friendly to homosexuals, thus the need for a GLBT FRIENDLY guild arises. this doesnt even mean a guild who is exclusively GLBT, (or GLBQTT in some places) but people who are ok with others being of that persuasion.

Black friendly would have been a much better example on your part, as a black friendly guild is more justifyable, however there is significantly less hate directed towards black people in wow than there is towards gay people. Once again, no one goes around in wow saying "omg dont be so BLACK" when they are trying to say someone is being difficult, bad or ignorant. However they will use Gay, and thats part of the whole point.

Seraphon

11-02-2006, 08:20 PM

My bad, gay-friendly*

That doesn't matter. It seriously doesn't. Does there need to be a certain level of hatespewing before someone can feel uncomfortable? Maybe I just don't like playing with different people at all because I'm extremely narrowminded. Or maybe I'm black and I want a black-friendly guild. I just took white-friendly as an example.

Of course it matters. It isn't about feeling comfortable, but avoiding harassment. People that wanted a white or black friendly guild and who didn't like playing with different people would be sadly disappointed, since there would be different people in the guild: just not those who had a problem with race.

Again, it's the difference between GLBT only and GLBT friendly. Stop confusing the two.

See, that's where server differences come into play I guess. I've been paying REALLY close attention the past 7 days and I've seen maybe 10 cases of misusage of the words gay/ghey/whatever they make of it, and none of them were directly aimed at gay people. It was more the "omfg, this serverlag is so gheeeey" type of remarks. In all my time in WoW I haven't seen a single person attack someone gay directly. Truth be told, I haven't seen a lot of people mention the fact that they're gay either, iirc only 4-ish.

And you think that gay people are supposed to like things, even on your server?

Yes but that is my point. As long as you call it friendly-something nobody can say anything about it. For all I know Sara's guildmembers do nothing but mock straight people in the guildchannel. No way for us to know for sure ey? ;)

Why not be charitable?

Nargulssin

11-02-2006, 08:27 PM

First, I would like to say how much I have enjoyed the debate in this thread (all 32 pages of it)! “Enjoyed” seems like such a non-PC term for a topic like this, but I can’t remember the last time my mind has been stretched by so many vastly different and well crafted viewpoints that have caused me to look at the situation in entirely new dimensions. (Special thanks to Seraphon, M@D_3D, Herald of Doom, Prasius, Kellas, Piemaster, Atriedes, ZaxGreia and of course Sara-PrismaticEcho)

I think the challenge of a debate like this is that it deals with a lot of very complicated issues on a multitude of levels. People tend to mix the specific arguments they are debating into one long stream of consciousness. While this is widely regarded as the “art of debate”, I wonder if our purposes are best served by it? Are we trying to determine who is the best debater, or arrive at conclusions (and possibly consensus) that helps all of us to determine where we stand on the issues at hand? In a political analogy, do we want to elect the most eloquent speaker or the best candidate for the job?

For example at one point Piemaster was making good headway on a number of points but Seraphon cleverly used a number of debating tactics on page 14 such as saying “Haha... outbursts like this mean that you have lost the argument” and also refocusing the argument on the moral highground of human rights. Piemaster let himself be goaded into directly debating Seraphon’s points rather than sticking with the point that human rights wasn’t his argument at all. To win he needed to make the case such as “Blizzard shouldn’t be forced to be the arbitrator of the legitimacy of GLBT-friendly, Muslim-friendly, Christian-friendly, Republican-friendly, Nazi-friendly” He could have talked about resources or costs, or focused on how these issues could escalate into Christian-pride parades or the like. Instead, he took the bait, dove into the argument that Seraphon had laid out and, well, got owned (sorry Piemaster, I was pulling for you ;), nicely done Seraphon )

Since this argument has raged for over 32 pages, I wonder if everyone would consider helping to list what the key discrete arguments are? I think then we could pretty quickly come to consensus on some of the points (and thus stop them from continuing to come up) and be able to focus on the remaining wildly contested points or possibly adding new points to the debate.

My first stab at it would be:

1) Are GLBT’s harassed in WOW? (I think most of us agree that they are)

2) Does Blizzard inconsistently enforce its language use policies? (Seems like enforcement is intermittent, but don’t know if this is do to only intermittent reporting with consistent action, hard to tell because of the enormity of the issue (enormity = usage + varying opinion of what constitutes an offence))

3) Did/does Blizzard discriminate against GLBT’s?

4) Could Blizzard have done a better job in communicating their concerns with Sara’s actions in the game? (Seems like even Blizzard says a big YES!)

5) Does Blizzard have the legal right to warn or ban users for any game-behaviour (not RL aspect) they see fit?

6) By allowing “GLBT friendly” guild advertisements does this create a slippery slope for “KKK friendly”, “Victims of Rape and Incest –friendly” and “Christian friendly” guild advertisements, parades and demonstrations?

7) Is the online reality of WOW the appropriate place for these types of mature discussions?

Seraphon

12-02-2006, 12:01 AM

My first stab at it would be:

1) Are GLBT’s harassed in WOW? (I think most of us agree that they are)

Sure, that's a fact. It's not really open to debate other than about the severity of it.

2) Does Blizzard inconsistently enforce its language use policies? (Seems like enforcement is intermittent, but don’t know if this is do to only intermittent reporting with consistent action, hard to tell because of the enormity of the issue (enormity = usage + varying opinion of what constitutes an offence))

I think that they are mostly consistent, but that they only enforce what is reported, and most people can't be bothered reporting all that they see, and if they did, it would take the GMs forever to sort through it all.

3) Did/does Blizzard discriminate against GLBT’s?

Not any more. The policy of blaming the victims seemed to be clearly discriminatory, but that has been removed. I doubt that there intention was to discriminate, but the policy was badly thought out.

4) Could Blizzard have done a better job in communicating their concerns with Sara’s actions in the game? (Seems like even Blizzard says a big YES!)

From my point of view, absolutely.

5) Does Blizzard have the legal right to warn or ban users for any game-behaviour (not RL aspect) they see fit?

I don't think so. You do have certain rights as a customer, and Blizzard has certain obligations as a company.

6) By allowing “GLBT friendly” guild advertisements does this create a slippery slope for “KKK friendly”, “Victims of Rape and Incest –friendly” and “Christian friendly” guild advertisements, parades and demonstrations?

No. The slippery slope stops at guilds that express a preference that is discriminatory. A KKK friendly guild is out, but a Christian friendly guild seems reasonable to me. I can't think that anyone would ever try the other one.

7) Is the online reality of WOW the appropriate place for these types of mature discussions?[/quote]

Not in general chat. Political discussion should be kept out of the game. Mentioning one's religion or sexual preference should be OK as long as one doesn't try to start arguments or discussions about it.

My 10 cents

Valas Azuviir

12-02-2006, 02:17 AM

5) Does Blizzard have the legal right to warn or ban users for any game-behaviour (not RL aspect) they see fit?

I don't think so. You do have certain rights as a customer, and Blizzard has certain obligations as a company.

In agreement with most of your points, except this one. I'd say that Blizzard does have that right, but it's fully dependant upon the type of behaviour which would make a warning or banning the appropriate action to take. Spamming the chat channels, harrassing folks, exploiting bugs or terrain?? Warnings are in order with continued activities making permanent bannings a good solution to the problem they pose.

In this case neither the initial suspension or the subsequent downgrading to a warning were correct, because Sara did not violate the in-game policies or the ToU with her actions. Others do violate the policies and thus enforcement tools need to be present to deal with them.

Having said all of this, Blizzard really really really (add another 10 to the sixth power of really's) need to improve their communication skills. They keep making the same mistakes over and over again, and that's a shame really. Read an interesting article about this issue couple of days ago. An PR expert blamed it on poor leadership and lack of proper long term effects vision. Can't say I disagree with him.

Nargulssin

12-02-2006, 02:43 AM

So it seems to me that the interesting ones to discuss are 5, 6 and possibly 7.

6) By allowing “GLBT friendly” guild advertisements does this create a slippery slope for “KKK friendly”, “Victims of Rape and Incest –friendly” and “Christian friendly” guild advertisements, parades and demonstrations?

No. The slippery slope stops at guilds that express a preference that is discriminatory. A KKK friendly guild is out, but a Christian friendly guild seems reasonable to me. I can't think that anyone would ever try the other one.

In 6, for example, you had to think through that GLBT and Christians were in but KKK was out (the fact that thinking was required in that you had to explain your rationale). What about the following: Muslim Freedom Fighters, Jewish Faithful, Holocaust-survivors, Native Americans, Republican-Friendly, Democrat-Friendly, Microsoft-Friendly, Macintosh-Friendly, Abortion-supporters, and ProLife... I’m even willing to concede that your picks of who stays and who goes will be perfectly aligned with the choices that I would make (obviously probably not in agreement with the groups that you ban though).

The interesting questions for point 6 are:

Even though you (Seraphon) could pick them all perfect, could Piemaster or Herald of Doom do the same (i.e. would you agree with each of their decisions)? More importantly, could each of the 1000 GM’s that Blizzard uses to monitor the virtual worlds pick them all perfect? Judging by the emails Sara received, I’m not sure I would want their judgment, they can’t all be as smart and as open-minded as you. (that was sincere, not sarcastic)

However, if you don’t trust the individual GM’s rulings (which clearly you don’t or this thread would never have started), would you suggest that WOW players pay additional fees to Blizzard each month to create a new judicial infrastructure that could review new requests?

Should Blizzard incur legal costs due to discussions with attorneys from each of these affected groups on a world-wide basis should the new judicial body turn that group down?

I will have to think some more about 5 and 7 before I can formulate a reasoned response.

Also, I hope someone else can add some additional dimensions (i.e. questions) after 33 pages of discussion. Those 7 were just the dimensions I was able to easily spot, there must be some other sides to this coin.

Seraphon

12-02-2006, 03:00 AM

So it seems to me that the interesting ones to discuss are 5, 6 and possibly 7.

In 6, for example, you had to think through that GLBT and Christians were in but KKK was out (the fact that thinking was required in that you had to explain your rationale). What about the following: Muslim Freedom Fighters, Jewish Faithful, Holocaust-survivors, Native Americans, Republican-Friendly, Democrat-Friendly, Microsoft-Friendly, Macintosh-Friendly, Abortion-supporters, and ProLife... I’m even willing to concede that your picks of who stays and who goes will be perfectly aligned with the choices that I would make (obviously probably not in agreement with the groups that you ban though).

What would be the point of most of these guilds within the game? Muslim Freedom Fighters is political, and the others do not represent a group of people against whom there is discrimination in game, which was the point of the GLBT friendly guild.

The interesting questions for point 6 are:

Even though you (Seraphon) could pick them all perfect, could Piemaster or Herald of Doom do the same (i.e. would you agree with each of their decisions)? More importantly, could each of the 1000 GM’s that Blizzard uses to monitor the virtual worlds pick them all perfect? Judging by the emails Sara received, I’m not sure I would want their judgment, they can’t all be as smart and as open-minded as you. (that was sincere, not sarcastic)

However, if you don’t trust the individual GM’s rulings (which clearly you don’t or this thread would never have started), would you suggest that WOW players pay additional fees to Blizzard each month to create a new judicial infrastructure that could review new requests?

Should Blizzard incur legal costs due to discussions with attorneys from each of these affected groups on a world-wide basis should the new judicial body turn that group down?

I will have to think some more about 5 and 7 before I can formulate a reasoned response.

Also, I hope someone else can add some additional dimensions (i.e. questions) after 33 pages of discussion. Those 7 were just the dimensions I was able to easily spot, there must be some other sides to this coin.

It's not even this complicated. People can advertise for X friendly guilds if there is signifcant wrongful prejudice against X's in the game. That means that gays, racial minorities, players with disabilities (deaf guilds for example, for people who can't use teamspeak) female players and religious minorities can advertise for guilds with friendly atmospheres and no one else can, or would even want to (other than to troll).

In all these cases there is a legitimate reason for the guild, since all these people are disadvantaged in some way that is no fault of their own. Nazis et al are not in the same group.

Nargulssin

12-02-2006, 03:21 AM

Also, just for the record, many of you have turned my thinking around on so many points (before I ever made a fool of myself by posting). I just logged in WOW to discover "love is in the air" and statements about cologne and perfume and gender preferences to these scents. Sara, it does seem that Blizzard has made sexual innuendos a part of the fabric of their game world, and thus “opened the door” so to speak to have their accepted vs. disapproved views debated. I’m still trying to come to grips with what truly is the best answer across all the dimensions, but I can tell you that if nothing else, you have certainly helped me see how openly biased the world must appear to people with different views. For that, I thank you.

Seraphon

12-02-2006, 04:21 AM

Some people still cannot seem to see why the existence of GLBT friendly guilds does not require the existence of white or nazi friendly guilds.

The answer is that it is not always wrong to treat one group of people differently from another: and it is often obligatory to do so for good moral reasons. No one complains that we treat blind or deaf people differently in certain ways from those who can both see and hear. For similar reasons, there is nothing wrong with allowing GLBT friendly guilds to recruit while not allowing white friendly or nazi friendly guilds to recruit. The reasons are provided by the context of the game.

Let's look at some examples of specialized guild recruiting that no reasonable person could object to. In the first case people are recruiting for an "X only" guild.

Say that I live in Quebec, and I don't speak English. A lot of Francophone Quebecers play the game, so I advertise in French (or in whatever broken English I can muster) that "Levesque's Gambit" is now looking for members, Francophones only (I have seen several such guilds recruit).

Are these people evil? Of course not. They want a Francophone guild because they don't speak English. There's no point in someone who doesn't speak French joining the guild. Do they hate English people? Perhaps some of them do, but that's not the reason for forming the guild, which is that they speak only French. Sure, I'm going to refuse non-French speakers who apply, but for an entirely legitimate reason - they won't be able to communicate with the rest of the guild.

Are Francophone players segregating themselves from the community at large? Yes. But not by choice. They can't speak English. Having a Francophone guild helps both French and English speaking players by not burdening each with the task of having to communicate with each other more than is necessary to enjoy the game.

Do Francophone players invite abuse on themselves by doing this? Yes. I have seen all sorts of derogatory and ignorant comments following recruitment messages by Francophone guilds. Should we ban French because some people are ignorant idiots? Of course not.

Here's an example:

[X] <French guild recruiting message>
[Y] What the hell did that say?
[Me] It says that they are a guild of Quebecers looking for Francophone players to join their guild. You must be level 40+ and be committed to raiding end game.
[Y] So that was in French/
[Me} Yes.
[Z] French Fags!!!!! USA 4 eva!!!!
[Various people] **** off Frenchies!!!!
[Y] I hate the French. Why can't those ghey fags stay on the Euro servers?
[Me] Because they are from Quebec.
[A] Quebec?
[Z] They should **** off back to their own servers.
[Y] They are French, they should play on the French servers.
[Me] They aren't from France.
[Z] Immigrants should have their own servers.
[Me] They aren't immigrants. They have been here for centuries.
[Y] They speak French, they must be from France. ur ghey!!
[Me] They are from Quebec, fool. Quebec is not in France.
[Z] American servers should be for people in North America
[Me] Quebec is in North America.
[Y] No it is not. ur ghey ur a fag.
etc...

Apart from Neanderthals who don't even know that Quebec exists, who could object to Francophone guilds?

Or a different case...

Let's say I am deaf and I know other players who are also deaf. We want to raid, but we cannot use Teamspeak or Ventrilo. Should we not advertise for deaf players and state that we can't use Vent?

If we just advertised that we didn't use Vent or Teamspeak, people would start spamming questions as to why, or ask us if we were too poor to afford it. Why not pre-empt the stupid questions by saying that we are deaf, and that people are welcome to join if they don't mind not using VOIP.

Of course, some idiot won't know what deaf means, but that's besides the point.

The same goes for Female friendly guilds and GLBT friendly guilds. These people have a good reason for wanting to keep out people who will harass them. They aren't actively discriminating against people on the basis of race, sex or orientation, but are trying to defend against existing prejudice that results in such discrimination... against them. They aren't excluding anyone who isn't a pig.

What would be the point of a white-friendly guild? It can't be defensive against discrimination because white people are not discriminated against in the game. The only reason I could see for it would be to troll the minority friendly guilds by a form of passive aggressive harassment. There is simply no pressing reason to allow white friendly or male friendly guilds in the game.

If there were no large scale patterns of harassment, there would be no need for guilds based on X friendliness to form as a defence from harassment. But there are large scale patterns of harassment in WoW, so there is a need.

PrismaticEcho

12-02-2006, 04:36 AM

No, you are still missing the point as you would understand if you had ever taken a course on discrimination in any form (african american studies, womens studies ect.).

There is no point in making a "white friendly guild" because this is the 'target'. It is what is expected. There is no such thing as a "white friendly guild" because EVERY guild is white friendly in wow. If you go into a guild and say "i'm white, i just dont want anyone to be suprised by that" no one is going to "omg your white? I dont think white people should be playing wow and I certainly dont think white people should be talking about their 'whiteness' in an online video game. Get out of my guild" you know why? Because it will never happen.

Everyone who plays wow is assumed to be a white male, by default, so making a white friendly guild, just like making a heterosexual friendly guild has no meaning. Because there is basically no one in wow who isnt friendly to heterosexuals. However there are many MANY people who are not friendly to homosexuals, thus the need for a GLBT FRIENDLY guild arises. this doesnt even mean a guild who is exclusively GLBT, (or GLBQTT in some places) but people who are ok with others being of that persuasion.

Black friendly would have been a much better example on your part, as a black friendly guild is more justifyable, however there is significantly less hate directed towards black people in wow than there is towards gay people. Once again, no one goes around in wow saying "omg dont be so BLACK" when they are trying to say someone is being difficult, bad or ignorant. However they will use Gay, and thats part of the whole point.

Nicely put! Basically, if we were in some backward alternate reality where whites and heterosexuals were the minority. . . THEN there would be reason to start a "white friendly" or "hetero-friendly" guild. However, we do NOT live in that parallel universe, therefore the argument is rediculous to bring up in THIS reality. I agree! ;)

PrismaticEcho

12-02-2006, 04:50 AM

Owoc

12-02-2006, 09:05 AM

Asides from the debate, Blizzard does have the right to enforce such restrictions. This is their game and they always have the final decision. Players agreed to this in the EULA, and must live with this regardless of their opinion on the subject.

Nargulssin

12-02-2006, 05:14 PM

Ok, first off, I probably should have mentioned in my original post a couple of things. It is not necessary to “win” each question/topic in order to convince the majority of people of the overall argument. Second, I’m neutral and simply trying to define all the different points of view and each side’s responses.

So with that in mind I’m going to pick up my own questions and answer them as best I can for the Pro side. If anyone can think of a better response, please add it, or if there is a dimension to the problem not being addressed, please submit. Otherwise this thing should be moving towards pretty much wrapped up with each possible argument asked and answered (all that is left is for each individual to make their own mind up).

1. Even though you (Seraphon) could pick them all perfect, could Piemaster or Herald of Doom do the same (i.e. would you agree with each of their decisions)? More importantly, could each of the 1000 GM’s that Blizzard uses to monitor the virtual worlds pick them all perfect? Judging by the emails Sara received, I’m not sure I would want their judgment, they can’t all be as smart and as open-minded as you. (that was sincere, not sarcastic)

“It's not even this complicated. People can advertise for X friendly guilds if there is significant wrongful prejudice against X's in the game. That means that gays, racial minorities, players with disabilities (deaf guilds for example, for people who can't use teamspeak) female players and religious minorities can advertise for guilds with friendly atmospheres and no one else can, or would even want to (other than to troll).

In all these cases there is a legitimate reason for the guild, since all these people are disadvantaged in some way that is no fault of their own. Nazis et al are not in the same group.”

2. However, if you don’t trust the individual GM’s rulings (which clearly you don’t or this thread would never have started), would you suggest that WOW players pay additional fees to Blizzard each month to create a new judicial infrastructure that could review new requests?

No, a judicial infrastructure just for this is ridiculous! GM’s have to make rulings on what is decent or indecent, appropriate or inappropriate every single day. Now, should there be a better review process than the hell Sara went through, and the difficulties players have with Blizzard under threat of ban? – most likely yes, however this one act has not opened up a “new can of worms” so to speak, simply dropped in as part of the old one.

3. Should Blizzard incur legal costs due to discussions with attorneys from each of these affected groups on a world-wide basis should the new judicial body turn that group down?

Here is where a lot of debate happened over the 33 pages of this thread. Things like virtual world vs. real world, laws of California vs. TOS, etc. I think Blizzard will be smart to find a way to sidestep this issue since there is clearly mass media support and potentially legal basis for the other side. If they work this out, as opposed to having it settled in the courts, they can avoid the possibility of legal precedent, which could be far more constraining to future control of the world.

I still think however this may open them up to petitions and “fair and equal treatment” demands from a multitude a groups. I know in my city that when they authorized a gay pride demonstration they ended up having to authorize pro-life, and pro-military demonstrations (not that there is necessarily anything wrong with those second two groups). The point is simply that even though the suggested guidelines are clear, I’m not sure Seraphon is correct that the groups wouldn’t have legal standing (even if they have no “rational” standing from hers, and others, perspective). Does anyone know any legal precedence here? Here is a link where the KKK was enabled to hold a public demonstration exactly because of “fair and equal treatment” demands: http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=4020533&nav=0s3d

4. Will this escalate into virtual parades or even protests and demonstrations in the game?

That has never been Sara’s or anyone else associated with this goal. This is limited to the description of the guild. It is not about raising awareness of a cause. It will only be used in the appropriately designated guild recruitment channel and in information on the guild that players wishing to join may seek out.

However, with or without this issue, it appears that WoW will face these types of challenges based upon recent protests of in-game weddings and such. It is clearly possible that all the media-hype surrounding this will encourage other groups (with no legitimate agenda – other than grandstanding and attention mongering) to stage attention events and actions within the game. Again, this outcome was inevitable by the simple fact that millions of people play online virtual reality games – it should not be categorized as a side-effect of this (GLBT-friendly guild announcement) action.

SpiritWalker

13-02-2006, 02:29 AM

The same goes for Female friendly guilds and GLBT friendly guilds. These people have a good reason for wanting to keep out people who will harass them. They aren't actively discriminating against people on the basis of race, sex or orientation, but are trying to defend against existing prejudice that results in such discrimination... against them. They aren't excluding anyone who isn't a pig.

What would be the point of a white-friendly guild? It can't be defensive against discrimination because white people are not discriminated against in the game. The only reason I could see for it would be to troll the minority friendly guilds by a form of passive aggressive harassment. There is simply no pressing reason to allow white friendly or male friendly guilds in the game.

If there were no large scale patterns of harassment, there would be no need for guilds based on X friendliness to form as a defence from harassment. But there are large scale patterns of harassment in WoW, so there is a need.
For a moment there I could have sworn I saw you deciding who is accepted to start [insert-random word]-friendly guild. Must be me. Of course you speak out practice, having spend time on every server, deciding that in WoW globally all gay people are being harrassed and this injustice has to stop! Of course, the poor people from Quebec are also allowed to make anti-harrassment guilds, because those fake-frenchies.. oops, I mean Canadians, are harrased day and night! Deaf people too! Oh, God, yes, I see them getting harrassed daily, because they can't use ventrillo. Seraphon has spoken ladies and gentlemen, deafs, gays and people from Quebec, you have permission from this guy right here to start a [insert your malfunction here]-friendly guild.

I am so glad we cleared up who can and who can't start a xxxx-friendly guild. Now if only Blizzard wasn't so narrowminded in seeing the obvious logic in your statements, which are based on world wide knowledge thus being fact, and certainly not just your oppinion.

I think the gay person in my guild can sleep good at night now that he is allowed to go and make a guild where he doesn't get harrassed by us daily. I think my cousin who is gay will sleep better too because of this great and enormous victory for gay people all over the world. I heard him say last night "that Seraphon guy, I am so thankful to him that he convinced everyone that gay people are being harrased against in WoW world wide and daily, no every hour, what am I saying, every minute!" and his BF told me that he was glad for the deaf and people from Quebec. You sir, and the people who stand beside you have made a stance against the great injustice that every gay person has experienced in WoW and for that I thank you, you have opened my eyes!

/clap
/salute

Seraphon

13-02-2006, 04:04 AM

For a moment there I could have sworn I saw you deciding who is accepted to start [insert-random word]-friendly guild. Must be me. Of course you speak out practice, having spend time on every server, deciding that in WoW globally all gay people are being harrassed and this injustice has to stop! Of course, the poor people from Quebec are also allowed to make anti-harrassment guilds, because those fake-frenchies.. oops, I mean Canadians, are harrased day and night! Deaf people too! Oh, God, yes, I see them getting harrassed daily, because they can't use ventrillo. Seraphon has spoken ladies and gentlemen, deafs, gays and people from Quebec, you have permission from this guy right here to start a [insert your malfunction here]-friendly guild.

I am so glad we cleared up who can and who can't start a xxxx-friendly guild. Now if only Blizzard wasn't so narrowminded in seeing the obvious logic in your statements, which are based on world wide knowledge thus being fact, and certainly not just your oppinion.

I think the gay person in my guild can sleep good at night now that he is allowed to go and make a guild where he doesn't get harrassed by us daily. I think my cousin who is gay will sleep better too because of this great and enormous victory for gay people all over the world. I heard him say last night "that Seraphon guy, I am so thankful to him that he convinced everyone that gay people are being harrased against in WoW world wide and daily, no every hour, what am I saying, every minute!" and his BF told me that he was glad for the deaf and people from Quebec. You sir, and the people who stand beside you have made a stance against the great injustice that every gay person has experienced in WoW and for that I thank you, you have opened my eyes!

/clap
/salute

Just because you don't possess the brains to logically dispute anything I or the other posters have argued, you have to resort to puerile insults.

If you want to come up with some new arguments, go for it. Otherwise leave this debate to people who know what they are talking about. Here's a tip for you: when all you can do is post stuff like this because you can't deal with the argument, it means you lost.

Face it: you were wrong, and you have no idea what you are talking about. :)

SpiritWalker

13-02-2006, 04:46 AM

Just because you don't possess the brains to logically dispute anything I or the other posters have argued, you have to resort to puerile insults.
I find it a shame you find it insulting, was meant to be satirical.

If you want to come up with some new arguments, go for it. Otherwise leave this debate to people who know what they are talking about. Here's a tip for you: when all you can do is post stuff like this because you can't deal with the argument, it means you lost.
Oh, yes. You posting the same baseless arguments over and over really keeps this thread fresh admittedly.

Face it: you were wrong, and you have no idea what you are talking about. :)
Ohnoes, a person on a forum says I must admit I am wrong in a thread that should have ended 34 pages ago.

Thing is, maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but neither do you, so stop pretending you know everything about it.

PrismaticEcho

13-02-2006, 11:03 AM

Thing is, maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but neither do you, so stop pretending you know everything about it.

Actually, everything he has said has made perfect sense. I admire his ability to articulate his thoughts so clearly. Don't be angry because you don't understand what he's saying. I can tell by the "oh noes" that you must be a younger individual. . . some day you'll grow up, and perhaps be able to understand the things that he was saying. Till then. . . I agree with him. . . if you can't say something more meaningful than your little post, don't say anything at all. This is one of the best forums that I've come across. The debate has been extremely good and civil for the most part. Please don't ruin that by throwing your childish insults at his logical points. Either argue like an adult, or stay out of it and leave it to the adults.

rutty

13-02-2006, 11:24 AM

Well Sara, you've even made the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4700754.stm

Includes one rather saucy photo of your good self as an extra bonus ;)

Seraphon

13-02-2006, 11:29 AM

I find it a shame you find it insulting, was meant to be satirical.

Oh, yes. You posting the same baseless arguments over and over really keeps this thread fresh admittedly.

And why are they baseless? Please explain, so that I may be enlightened.

Thing is, maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but neither do you, so stop pretending you know everything about it.

Although it's not my specialization, I have been known to teach the subject at university level. I wouldn't say that I know everything about it (probably enough to teach most undergraduate courses - as I said, I don't specialize in ethics or political philosophy), but that's a lot more than you from the evidence in this thread.

You don't have anything to offer other than petulance it seems, please try again.

Toper

13-02-2006, 01:44 PM

Finally, it's sorted out with Blizz doing the right thing. Thanks guys, a shame it took so long, but my faith is restored and I'll feel that bit more comfortable playing WoW.

SpiritWalker

13-02-2006, 03:08 PM

And why are they baseless? Please explain, so that I may be enlightened.
If you knew anything about discussing topics on a forum you'd back your statements up with facts. I've seen you and some others claim a million times and more that gay people are being harrassed ingame, yet I have yet to see 1 single shred of evidence on this matter.

You claim that gay people deserve special rights because they are being harrassed ingame. You have given no proof of the harrassement and therein you have failed to properly refute why other forms of politically burdened topics are not allowed, because you cannot create or find any proof that they are or aren't being harrassed.

For example, I could say I am a Christian and people in my guild misuse the word too much, and general chat is full of swearing and cursing, I want a Jesus friendly environment, I am going to advertise for a Jesus-friendly guild. This will now have to be allowed because of the little miss here. I have seen you claim then that these sort of people don't get harrassed and thus don't deserve the right to make such a friendly guild, but you don't know that, even more so you don't even have the feintest idea, because you have no idea what goes on other servers.

In all the mediahype this girl has caused I haven't even read anywhere if she has been actually harrassed in any guild, and if so was this 1 guild? Multiple guilds? Did she report them? Was she kicked for actually being gay? Was she kicked multiple times for being gay? Again if so did she report it? I doubt she has been kicked from more than one guild, I doubt she reported that, and if she did I am sure the people responsible would have been reprimanded.
Now there goes her whole basis for even starting a GLBT-friendly guild, they aren't necesary, she was mad because she got mistreated in 1 guild, probably didn't even bother to report and decided that everyone and all guilds on her server were anti-gay.

To make the story more juicy you guys pull in the fact that the word "gay" is misused as a negative too often in general chat. Again it's funny how you can so easily generalise this because maybe it does happen on your server, but I have never seen it, on none of the 3 servers I've played on, neither have I seen gay people being harrassed on any of those for what that matters. Point is using gay negatively in chat isn't necesarily bigotry towards gays perse and that's what you also keep claiming, unrightfully, because the word gay as a negative in english has lost most to all its ties to actually being gay or meaning brightfull etc.

Then you pull in how Blizzard is breaking all these laws. The terms of use have clearly stated that Blizzard can warn you for whatever they deem fair, the banning if that even happened was too harsh I admit, but a warning for bringing a hot discussed (obviously otherwise we wouldn't have 34 pages wasting forum space here) topic in to a game where it doesn't need to exist is their right and isn't discriminating.
It's funny I started to think who else does this. Have you ever read these forum rules which you have to abide to? The forum moderators have the full right to punish anyone who they wish to, they don't of course just do this, but to keep the forum clean sometimes they have to warn people even if they sometimes make a valid point, because this forum doesn't have freedom of speech which is clearly in most countries their constitution. I have yet to see anyone sue these forums though, because they were banned, let alone be right in doing so.

I personally know a few gay and they all find what this Sara character did unnecesary. I find it unnecesary and so do a lot of more gamers who don't want to see political discussions ending up in general chat, which I can guarentee you this will cause.

Although it's not my specialization, I have been known to teach the subject at university level. I wouldn't say that I know everything about it (probably enough to teach most undergraduate courses - as I said, I don't specialize in ethics or political philosophy), but that's a lot more than you from the evidence in this thread.
If it's not your specialization, then how come you teach it, at university level even. Hate to go to a school where they hire people to teach a subject in which they haven't even specialized. "Class of the University of Blahblah, today we're going to talk about political ethics and philosophy, I don't actually have a degree in it so I probably don't know more on it than you already do, but let me tell you what I know anyway to fill up your time."

Also, you probably haven't even read my previous let alone properly refuted them, so drop the holier than thou act, kkthnx.

You don't have anything to offer other than petulance it seems, please try again.
I had more than enough to offer, because unlike you some me and other people in this thread have actually made valid points instead of making 10.000 word long essays in which you claim everything, but prove nothing. So because you have nothing more to offer than hot air, I'd please ask you not to try again, because you are getting nowhere.

Actually, everything he has said has made perfect sense. I admire his ability to articulate his thoughts so clearly.
It's your right to admire it. It's my right to say he's full of it when he makes no valid points in trying to refute most arguments by his opponents.
Don't be angry because you don't understand what he's saying. I can tell by the "oh noes" that you must be a younger individual. . . some day you'll grow up, and perhaps be able to understand the things that he was saying.
Uhu, because saying "oh noes" in a thread automatically makes you a 14 year old doesn't it? How narrowminded of you in thinking that everyone who doesn't use perfect english and likes to use internet words like that and others like "lol" and "rofl" etc is automatically a child/teen. But wait, haven't I seen you say stuff like "lol" and spam "?!?!?!!?!?" before, how very hypocritical of you to accuse me of being "a young individual".
Till then. . . I agree with him. . . if you can't say something more meaningful than your little post, don't say anything at all.
It's obvious that you have no understanding of what sarcasm and what satire is, but I can see you get impressed pretty fast when people write big long texts with a lot of big words in them.

This is one of the best forums that I've come across. The debate has been extremely good and civil for the most part. Please don't ruin that by throwing your childish insults at his logical points.
The debate has been without any valid proof from your side and has consisted of mostly repeating the same stuff over and over. Good and civil? Yes. A very good debate? No. The topic is awful and neither side will ever agree to the other. Rather pointless, this discussion should have never been, you should have just accepted Blizzard's punishment like a good little girl instead of pulling open a huge can of worms.

Either argue like an adult, or stay out of it and leave it to the adults.
Oh yeah, judging from your actions and posts I can certainly say you are a very mature person.. an adult perhaps, but very mature? No.

Toper

13-02-2006, 04:14 PM

If you knew anything about discussing topics on a forum you'd back your statements up with facts. I've seen you and some others claim a million times and more that gay people are being harrassed ingame, yet I have yet to see 1 single shred of evidence on this matter.

Not been playing any on-line games with strangers, then? Or do you consider it's OK to have the "normal" word for useless being the word gay? Or the most common perjorative term being fag or faggot?

You claim that gay people deserve special rights because they are being harrassed ingame.

No. No, no, no, no.

What we claim - and what Blizz have now accepted, is that gay people should not be treated badly in-game just because they are gay.

We further submit that casual, perjorative use of these terms towards other players in general chat is passive harrassment, and makes many of us very uncomfortable.

We therefore state that we want to have guilds where this will not happen, and demand the right to be able to advertise such guilds.

And we feel (strongly) that Blizzard was punishing the wrong people.

For example, I could say I am a Christian and people in my guild misuse the word too much, and general chat is full of swearing and cursing, I want a Jesus friendly environment, I am going to advertise for a Jesus-friendly guild.

And what's wrong with that? If people want a guild with no (what they see as) blasphemy, swearing or "taking the Lord's name in vain", they have a right to create that environment. What they don't have a right to create is an environment where non-Christians are harrassed by their guild.

In all the mediahype this girl has caused I haven't even read anywhere if she has been actually harrassed in any guild, and if so was this 1 guild? Multiple guilds? Did she report them? Was she kicked for actually being gay? Was she kicked multiple times for being gay? Again if so did she report it?

That's not the point, dammit. General chat is passive harrassment, and all that was wanted was a guild where people could escape this and feel safe!

I doubt she has been kicked from more than one guild, I doubt she reported that, and if she did I am sure the people responsible would have been reprimanded.

(1) You don't know that, and you castigate others for not backing up their claims...
(2) That's not the point, dammit (see above)

Now there goes her whole basis for even starting a GLBT-friendly guild, they aren't necesary, she was mad because she got mistreated in 1 guild, probably didn't even bother to report and decided that everyone and all guilds on her server were anti-gay.

See point (2)

To make the story more juicy you guys pull in the fact that the word "gay" is misused as a negative too often in general chat. Again it's funny how you can so easily generalise this because maybe it does happen on your server, but I have never seen it, on none of the 3 servers I've played on, neither have I seen gay people being harrassed on any of those for what that matters.

You've never seen the word "gay" used negatively in general chat? I'm sorry, but I find that really hard to imagine, unless you don't play very much. What server are you on? It sounds great. Sadly, neither of the 2 on which I play are so civilised.

Point is using gay negatively in chat isn't necesarily bigotry towards gays perse and that's what you also keep claiming, unrightfully, because the word gay as a negative in english has lost most to all its ties to actually being gay or meaning brightfull etc.

WTF?

No, really, WTF?

What else does it mean?

Gay is generally used, both on-line and IRL by 15 year-olds as a perjorative, phasing in for the word "lame" over the last couple of years. To them, it only means "homosexual", and homosexual is taken as understood to mean rubbish, undesirable and quite yucky - and anyone who questions that is called gay!

The lost meaning of the word is "happy", which was what it mean when the gay pride folks appropriated it.

I personally know a few gay and they all find what this Sara character did unnecesary. I find it unnecesary and so do a lot of more gamers who don't want to see political discussions ending up in general chat, which I can guarentee you this will cause.

Not even a "some of my best friends are black". lol.

Even if they do find it "unnecessary" (and are not just agreeing that what you've described to them seems unnecessary), how is that relevant? It should be clear to you that many, many players out here find both the casual homophobia in-game and (worse) Blizzard's conduct in threatening punishment to GLBT-friendly folks objectionable. This being the case, it was clearly necessary to do something about it.

And guess what? Yep, Blizzard management agreed with us.

you should have just accepted Blizzard's punishment like a good little girl instead of pulling open a huge can of worms.

Let me guess, you've never had to seriously challenge anything in your life? That's the only charitable explanation I can think of for such drivel. Or, I suppose it's possible that you just accept everything submissively - but judging from your posts here I find that somewhat unlikely.

Too many people have had to fight too hard for the basic freedom to express who they are for that sort of rot to be accepted nowadays. Or do you think Rosa Parks should have accepted going to the back of the bus like a "good little girl"? How about Mohandas Ghandi? Do you watch Spartacus thinking he should have just knuckled down like a good slave?

If you do believe that, of course, I fully expect you now to accept Blizzard's management having apologised to Sara, and their admission that her behaviour was acceptable - and the implication that the view of the GM, and many people here, is plain wrong.

You lost, so accept it - like a good little girl.

SpiritWalker

13-02-2006, 05:09 PM

Not been playing any on-line games with strangers, then? Or do you consider it's OK to have the "normal" word for useless being the word gay? Or the most common perjorative term being fag or faggot?

..

Lot of repeating same inbetween

..

If you do believe that, of course, I fully expect you now to accept Blizzard's management having apologised to Sara, and their admission that her behaviour was acceptable - and the implication that the view of the GM, and many people here, is plain wrong.
I really wonder how people like you manage in real life when you can't even handle reading a word in a game which might imply to your lifestyle, but actually doesn't, plus it's not even directed at you.

Also I don't know, but if the point wasn't that she was being harrassed in her guild why should she start a harrassment free guild then, hm?

That's not the point, dammit. General chat is passive harrassment, and all that was wanted was a guild where people could escape this and feel safe!
This is what I mean by refuting arguments properly, you read my argument, but you don't really respond to it. I ask how she was harrassed in her guild and if she was kicked for being gay and if so did she report it and did it happen in multiple guilds and you start talking about "feeling safe" from general chat, I don't see the connection. If she was already in a guild where she was accepted, there wouldn't be a need for her to make a harrassment free guild, because she already was in one. Now my point also was if she did get kicked for being gay from her guild, did she even bother trying to find a maybe bit more mature guild, or did she just rightaway decided that every guild will have biggots in it and she will never find one unless she makes one herself.

Also, I could understand she doesn't want to get harrassed in her own guild, but you guys keep going on about general chat. Has it ever occured to you to turn it off?

And yes, I've seen around 10 people in this thread that really fight for your 'cause', so obviously there are some who find they are being harrassed, but who are you decide that all gay people ingame then are being harrassed and that they all need you saving them? Same as Seraphon thinking in he can decide who is being harrassed ingame or not and he can decide who can get special treatment, because that is exactly what it is you are getting now.

You lost, so accept it - like a good little girl.
I lost nothing, there's nothing to win here. Plus if you're going to be sarcastic at least do it right and say "good little boy".

PrismaticEcho

13-02-2006, 10:54 PM

ZaxGreia

14-02-2006, 05:59 AM

I have to jump in again to mention what I think about Blizzard's methods for dealing with the situation at hand.

Truthfully, it's a total diversion. It's smoke and mirrors, and it worked :) Whatever it takes.

The reason I call it a diversion is that they basically implemented a new permanent channel that anyone can be a part of, if they choose. It takes all of 5 seconds to do (plus another 10 to make sure it gets into the version change notes - right at the top, so as to make sure none of you detractors miss it).

I think their fix is one of the better PR moves Blizzard has made, and in classic PR form, it is meant only to make the disgruntled less disgruntled. I'm glad it worked, and that it didn't require a huge change in game mechanics, or make the game uncomfortable to play for the vast majority of its players.

I'm glad that it all worked out so well for everyone. Perhaps it'll stay fixed for the rest of its playable life (WoW, that is).

Seraphon

14-02-2006, 09:41 AM

If you knew anything about discussing topics on a forum you'd back your statements up with facts.

Now you are just trying too hard. And you've made another mistake. It's actually not necessary to introduce facts to refute another person, as you would know if you understood elementary logic and the Socratic method, but I digress....

I've seen you and some others claim a million times and more that gay people are being harrassed ingame, yet I have yet to see 1 single shred of evidence on this matter.

OMG...

You simply cannot be serious. I see that Sara has already pwned you on this point, but I'd add that you need to go to the WoW forums and read some of the hate filled invective that is being poured at homosexuals by WoW players.

If you want further proof, read the original emails sent to Sara, where Blizzard representatives state that advertising for a GLBT guild is likely to result in harassment. Their original "blaming the victim" policy explicitly concedes that homosexual players will be harassed in game because of their homosexuality.

You claim that gay people deserve special rights because they are being harrassed ingame.

I claim that they deserve a harassment free game. That is not a special right in and of itself. It's no different in principle from paraplegics wanting to have equal access to buildings. It so happens that they need ramps and certain kinds of elevators in order to do so, but this is simply giving them equal access, not some special rights. Just as you can use the ramps if you want, you are also free to join a GLBT friendly guild.

You have given no proof of the harrassement and therein you have failed to properly refute why other forms of politically burdened topics are not allowed, because you cannot create or find any proof that they are or aren't being harrassed.

This is funny. Blizzard themselves have conceded it. The fact that you have engaged in such a desperate argument shows that you simply cannot accept that you have lost the argument.

For example, I could say I am a Christian and people in my guild misuse the word too much, and general chat is full of swearing and cursing, I want a Jesus friendly environment, I am going to advertise for a Jesus-friendly guild. This will now have to be allowed because of the little miss here. I have seen you claim then that these sort of people don't get harrassed and thus don't deserve the right to make such a friendly guild, but you don't know that, even more so you don't even have the feintest idea, because you have no idea what goes on other servers.

Hahahhahaha

Read my previous posts. I explicitly stated that people should be allowed to advertise for Christian-friendly guilds where blasphemy, sex chat and swearing were banned in guild chat.

So your tactic is now to accuse me of not claiming things I have actually said. I thought you were into facts. Perhaps you should have read the thread.

In all the mediahype this girl has caused I haven't even read anywhere if she has been actually harrassed in any guild, and if so was this 1 guild? Multiple guilds? Did she report them? Was she kicked for actually being gay? Was she kicked multiple times for being gay? Again if so did she report it? I doubt she has been kicked from more than one guild, I doubt she reported that, and if she did I am sure the people responsible would have been reprimanded.
Now there goes her whole basis for even starting a GLBT-friendly guild, they aren't necesary, she was mad because she got mistreated in 1 guild, probably didn't even bother to report and decided that everyone and all guilds on her server were anti-gay.

She's played the game. Unless you have been incredibly lucky, you too will have seen homophobic remarks and attacks in general chat. I've seen plenty. I don't think that any serious participant in the debate has claimed what you are claiming. Again, go read the official forum threads on the topic if you want some proof of what players are prepared to say to and about homosexuals.

To make the story more juicy you guys pull in the fact that the word "gay" is misused as a negative too often in general chat. Again it's funny how you can so easily generalise this because maybe it does happen on your server, but I have never seen it, on none of the 3 servers I've played on, neither have I seen gay people being harrassed on any of those for what that matters. Point is using gay negatively in chat isn't necesarily bigotry towards gays perse and that's what you also keep claiming, unrightfully, because the word gay as a negative in english has lost most to all its ties to actually being gay or meaning brightfull etc.

And people using the n-word in chat, or the word "kike" is not necessarily demeaning towards black or Jewish players. Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

Then you pull in how Blizzard is breaking all these laws. The terms of use have clearly stated that Blizzard can warn you for whatever they deem fair, the banning if that even happened was too harsh I admit, but a warning for bringing a hot discussed (obviously otherwise we wouldn't have 34 pages wasting forum space here) topic in to a game where it doesn't need to exist is their right and isn't discriminating.

RTFT!

I made no claims about the law, since IANAL. I have pointed out that the law is not generally as clear cut regarding discrimination by private businesses as some people like to think, but that's irrelevant. I've merely argued that what Blizzard did was morally indefensible. Unlike you I'm clear that conflating morality and legality is a fallacy.

It's funny I started to think who else does this. Have you ever read these forum rules which you have to abide to? The forum moderators have the full right to punish anyone who they wish to, they don't of course just do this, but to keep the forum clean sometimes they have to warn people even if they sometimes make a valid point, because this forum doesn't have freedom of speech which is clearly in most countries their constitution. I have yet to see anyone sue these forums though, because they were banned, let alone be right in doing so.

Perhaps they have the legal right to do so. I have no idea. But worldofwar.net is not charging me $15 a month to post here, so it's conceivable that any such law does not apply. But that's not the point: if this forum's moderators censored homosexuals, they would be bigots, as they would be if they allowed racist attacks on blacks.

I personally know a few gay and they all find what this Sara character did unnecesary. I find it unnecesary and so do a lot of more gamers who don't want to see political discussions ending up in general chat, which I can guarentee you this will cause.

Then report the people who are doing it. Again, you seem to miss the elementary point of the case: that gay people are being punished for other people breaking the rules.

If it's not your specialization, then how come you teach it, at university level even. Hate to go to a school where they hire people to teach a subject in which they haven't even specialized. "Class of the University of Blahblah, today we're going to talk about political ethics and philosophy, I don't actually have a degree in it so I probably don't know more on it than you already do, but let me tell you what I know anyway to fill up your time."

Here you demonstrate your complete ignorance of university teaching. When someone obtains a degree in a subject, there are almost always breadth requirements. For example, if you do a degree in history, you will be required to study various periods of history. Similarly, if you do a degree in philosophy, you will be required to take papers in all or most of the major areas of the subject. It's even stricter at the doctoral level. In most North American PhD programs there is an explicit breadth requirement in graduate coursework so that the resulting graduates will be competent to teach in all the basic areas of the subject. So for example: someone might specialize in Philosophy of Mind, but be competent to teach basic political and moral philosophy.

Also, you probably haven't even read my previous let alone properly refuted them, so drop the holier than thou act, kkthnx.

You've been owned son.

I had more than enough to offer, because unlike you some me and other people in this thread have actually made valid points instead of making 10.000 word long essays in which you claim everything, but prove nothing. So because you have nothing more to offer than hot air, I'd please ask you not to try again, because you are getting nowhere.

More rhetoric where you try to hide the fact that you have no substantive responses to offer. You seem to have a poor conception of what counts as logic and argument.

Please try again. And this time don't humiliate yourself so obviously.

Seraphon

14-02-2006, 10:00 AM

I really wonder how people like you manage in real life when you can't even handle reading a word in a game which might imply to your lifestyle, but actually doesn't, plus it's not even directed at you.

"your lifestyle"?!?!?!?!!

I see the problem here. You are afraid of homosexuals. They make you feel uneasy and insecure. You and some of the others in this debate are starting to sound like Frank Fitts from American Beauty.

Get over it. Gay people are entirely normal, they are just attracted to members of the same sex. That's the sum of it. It's no big deal.

You and others have made all sorts of horrible comments about Sara, who seems to be a perfectly nice person, just because she scares you. Again.. get over it. There's nothing to be afraid of.

FTR I have been LMAO at some of the comments from horny fifteen year old boys in the official forums. I have seen numerous posts from some of the more homophobic guys saying that it's a shame Sara is a lesbian because she is so cute, and that they'd love to "cure" her of lesbianism (not that there is anything necessarily evil about wishing for that: I cried when I learned Portia de Rossi was gay, as did many other straight men). I guess there are a few Battle.net kiddies who must now deal with the fact that they are attracted to a transgendered person. :)

bwirum

14-02-2006, 10:26 AM

Umm. .. Actually, I think I posted this once or twice already, but perhaps not. . . here's proof that gays are harassed all too often in game, STRAIGHT from the mouth of one of the PRODUCERS OF WORLD OF WARCRAFT!

Shane Dabiri, a producer on WoW says, "Quite simply, [gay] is used all too often as a pejorative term, and its usage in such a manner won't be tolerated. We don't want to foster an atmosphere that condones discrimination against any group, and the term gay when used negatively is discrimination."

-from this article http://innewsweekly.com/innews/?class_code=Ga&article_code=941

Thank you, come again!
I can agree with you all day long, but you simply cannot use this as proof that there is harassment going on in WoW. That is a very general statement that the word gay is often and *generally* (not necessarily in WoW) used as a perjorative term. Nothing more, nothing less.

"your lifestyle"?!?!?!?!!

I see the problem here. You are afraid of homosexuals. They make you feel uneasy and insecure. You and some of the others in this debate are starting to sound like Frank Fitts from American Beauty.
And you can't by any means derive anything like that from what he said.

Come on, make your arguments, and some of them are good, but these things just lower it to drivel.

PrismaticEcho

14-02-2006, 11:07 AM

FTR I have been LMAO at some of the comments from horny fifteen year old boys in the official forums. I have seen numerous posts from some of the more homophobic guys saying that it's a shame Sara is a lesbian because she is so cute, and that they'd love to "cure" her of lesbianism (not that there is anything necessarily evil about wishing for that: I cried when I learned Portia de Rossi was gay, as did many other straight men). I guess there are a few Battle.net kiddies who must now deal with the fact that they are attracted to a transgendered person. :)

OMG! I hope you told them. . . I'M NOT A LESBIAN!!! LOL I'm a transsexual dangit!!! :banghead: As much as the GLBT community is one entity, we transsexuals are often forgotten about in things such as this. Heck. . . a few articles completely left out the T in GLBT! I knew that picture of me on BBC.com was going to cause people to think I was a lesbian, because they didn't mention that I'm actually a transsexual in the article. >le-sigh< Oh well. . . what can ya do? Pick ya'self up and move on, I guess. . . LOL

PS
I dunno who Portia de Rossi is. . . but that reminded me of Caroline "Tula" Cossey (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://lgadata.se/james_bond/bondbrudar/12/bilder/cossey_1_liten.jpg&imgrefurl=http://lgadata.se/james_bond/bondbrudar/12/12_cossey.htm&h=150&w=110&sz=3&tbnid=27-nSG-0YzVzVM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=66&hl=en&start=26&prev=/images%3Fq%3DCaroline%2BCossey%26start%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN), a James Bond girl who was outed as a transsexual in the 80s (I think it was). I'm sure lots of guys were pretty distraught about that as well :wink3: )

Toper

14-02-2006, 01:16 PM

Loved the Tula Cossey ref :heart:

Also, thanks for the heads up Seraphon - I went over to the official forum for the 1st time in ages and found the funniest post of the year:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7098594&p=1&tmp=1#post7098858

ROFLMAO.

bwirum

14-02-2006, 01:47 PM

I dunno who Portia de Rossi is
Portia de Rossi is a female actor playing a lawyer in the Ally McBeal tv-series. Very tall, very blond, very hot. And yes, I do think quite a few heterosexual males cried their brave tears when they heard she was a lesbian... phiew..

Herald of Doom

14-02-2006, 01:54 PM

"your lifestyle"?!?!?!?!!

I see the problem here. You are afraid of homosexuals. They make you feel uneasy and insecure. You and some of the others in this debate are starting to sound like Frank Fitts from American Beauty.

Get over it. Gay people are entirely normal, they are just attracted to members of the same sex. That's the sum of it. It's no big deal.

You and others have made all sorts of horrible comments about Sara, who seems to be a perfectly nice person, just because she scares you. Again.. get over it. There's nothing to be afraid of.

Eh? Being gay is a lifestyle, even if you did not chose it.Besides,if gay people were normal then they wouldnt need seperate guilds would they? Normal as in, the norm. Many people aren't "normal" in that way and feel threatened. Now my point is, for the frikkin bazilionth time, your normal is not my normal and we're bound to be offended by different things. YOU may be offended by people saying gay, I'm not. *I* may be offended by people using god in a derogatory manner. Someone might feel offended if people say gays are normal and God made them what they are. So you are just going to decide the guild "Muslim Freedom Fighters" has no right to exist because they are political. Well call me crazy, but if people can have special guilds based on IRL sexuality or religion why not political reasons? I mean after all if they get harassed for their religion or their political party its still harassment don't you think? Please explain to how harassment based on politics is any different than harassment based on religion or sexuality

PS:Nargulssin, nice attempt there. But it's not easy to have a civilized and moderated debate in a non-debating forum ;)

PPS: My dsl was out for 4 days, hence my silence ::grin::

EDIT:Portia de Rossi is a female actor playing a lawyer in the Ally McBeal tv-series. Very tall, very blond, very hot. And yes, I do think quite a few heterosexual males cried their brave tears when they heard she was a lesbian... phiew..
Heh, I also heard some guys say "wow excellent, I love girl on girl action", followed by fantasies about other famous women admitting they're gay... Men are such pigs o.O

HoD

rutty

14-02-2006, 01:55 PM

Portia de Rossi is a female actor playing a lawyer in the Ally McBeal tv-series. Very tall, very blond, very hot. And yes, I do think quite a few heterosexual males cried their brave tears when they heard she was a lesbian... phiew..

Such things just fuel my perverse fantasies ;)

Anyway, are we going off topic? I think we are :afro:

Herald of Doom

14-02-2006, 02:14 PM

Such things just fuel my perverse fantasies ;)

Anyway, are we going off topic? I think we are :afro:
Pig number one reporting! Heh j/k mate :thumbsup:

HoD

catfive

14-02-2006, 02:16 PM

I've read this thread numerous times (ok I haven't read anything but the post above mine LOL) and I have yet to see any evidence of this giant bacon lettuce and tomato sandwich!

I am raising the issue with Blizzard as a matter of fraudulent advertisment.

I tried advertising my giant Bacon Lettuce and Tomato friendly guild and was immediately accosted by all sorts of abnormal individuals asking my sexuality and if they could quote sapphic poetry in our guild chat!

Of course I denied any such practices would be allowed and such people would be ostracised as a matter of principal.

My GBLT guild is planning meets at "Joe's cafe", "the Snax shop" and of course the "little chef" just outside basingstoke where you will be free to rant on and on about your rights, preferences and deviancies.

We do have a dress code (short black and lacy) but would request members only wear this on guild outings to discourage any further behaviour that threatens the continuation of our species of great British Sandwhich eaters.

We have a new rating system to save members losing valuable minutes of life reading dross and this thread has been classified : Utter ********.

bwirum

14-02-2006, 02:24 PM

EDIT:
Heh, I also heard some guys say "wow excellent, I love girl on girl action", followed by fantasies about other famous women admitting they're gay... Men are such pigs o.O
That was pretty much what made that "phiew" on the end there.. :cloud9:

Hawken

14-02-2006, 07:28 PM

Do you actually consider this some kind of political victory? For real? This was a business victory for Blizzard, and that's it. With one little soundbite they turn all of this into more advertisment and a good amount of positive publicity. Blizzard comes out smelling like roses and looking like heroes. I mean, for all intents and purposes you got played by an entity well out of your league.

Renceward

14-02-2006, 09:54 PM

Seraphon

14-02-2006, 10:04 PM

And you can't by any means derive anything like that from what he said.

Come on, make your arguments, and some of them are good, but these things just lower it to drivel.

I don't think it's a bad guess. His tone over all his posts leads me to believe that he has a problem with gays.

SpiritWalker

14-02-2006, 10:36 PM

I don't think it's a bad guess. His tone over all his posts leads me to believe that he has a problem with gays.
Actually, I have a problem with attention seekers and people who defend them. Doesn't matter if that attention seeker is black, white, yellow, gay, straight or whatever, but people like this Sara type are the kind of people why I am disgusted by what America stands for these days. So sorry to come to off bitter, but your assumptions of me being some kind of homophobe or biggot couldn't be more wrong, because as I said before I have a cousin who is gay and we have a perfectly good relationship.

But hey, what the hell do I care what you think, because you think you're right over this whole discussion, you think you've won this discussion, you think you know who I am, you think you know my age, you think have a higher education than me, and in all of those you couldn't be more wrong. So congratulations with your hollow 'victory'. Only one to actually win this is Blizzard. As I said before, nothing, because of all of this, has changed.

So go party, go mad, go tell all your college buddies you think you won an online discussion on a gameboard. :thumbsup:

PrismaticEcho

15-02-2006, 01:13 AM

Well Blizzard pulled a fast one - They introduced the new Guild Recruitment channel and the patch notes said it was ON by default, but it has now been corrected to say it is OFF by default.

The vast majority of players never touch their chat channels and stick with the defaults so most folks will never join the guild recruitment channel. So all guilds are now free to recruit on a channel that no one is subscribed to.

If it had been on be default, those folks who had a problem with this guild or that guild could have turned it off. But with it being off, most folks won't even know its there. News will be spread someone as someone says recruits for a guild or says they are looking for a guild in general and someone else jumps on them for being on the wrong channel.

This will hurt recruitment for all guilds. But typical Blizzard - take a good idea of implement it poorly.

Yes, I've heard. . . I've also written the head of Global Customer Service about this. I've yet to hear of any new policy regarding use of the recruiting channel. For instance, as long as you aren't violating the spamming policy, can you still recruit in general? If not, is there an official policy that has been added to the ToS which CLEARLY states this?

That aside, the important thing is that it has been clarified that it is NOT against the ToS to mention your sexuality in any of the channels. GMs can no longer twist the policy to fit their own personal agendas. If I say I'm gay or whatnot in general, I cannot be reported for "insultingly referring to sexual orientation". . . which is how this whole thing began.

Seraphon

15-02-2006, 03:41 AM

Actually, I have a problem with attention seekers and people who defend them. Doesn't matter if that attention seeker is black, white, yellow, gay, straight or whatever, but people like this Sara type are the kind of people why I am disgusted by what America stands for these days. So sorry to come to off bitter, but your assumptions of me being some kind of homophobe or biggot couldn't be more wrong, because as I said before I have a cousin who is gay and we have a perfectly good relationship.

Yeah right... heard that one a million times. "Some of my best friends are black... etc. etc.".

But hey, what the hell do I care what you think, because you think you're right over this whole discussion, you think you've won this discussion, you think you know who I am, you think you know my age, you think have a higher education than me, and in all of those you couldn't be more wrong. So congratulations with your hollow 'victory'. Only one to actually win this is Blizzard. As I said before, nothing, because of all of this, has changed.

If you had more education than me, it was clearly wasted, since you apparently can't spell correctly.

And of course you are talking this rubbish because you can't come up with a decent argument.

PrismaticEcho

15-02-2006, 04:27 AM

Yeah right... heard that one a million times. "Some of my best friends are black... etc. etc.".

Ya. . . it reminds me of this movie I saw once. These rich old white women had been secretly plotting against black people that were their "friends". They were SUPPOSEDLY helping the black people out somehow, but in fact there was some hidden agenda which discriminated against them. I forget how, exactly. But when the black people found out about it, they wrecked a party that the rich white women were holding. As the black people rampaged through the party, throwing over tables and starting food fights, the white women screamed, "How could you DO this?!?!? We like 'you people'!!! We give >insert black friendly organization here< money every year!!!" (as if that was to make up for their bigoted political stance) Cake was then thrown into their faces. I wish I could remember what movie it was. . .

ANYways. . . Spiritwalker (and others who scream, "but. . but. . . I have gay friends!") reminds me of the rich white women in that movie. It's like my best friend said the other day (when we were discussing how bigots don't realize that they're bigoted), "I love how people like to say, 'I'm not bigoted, BUT. . .'! No! There is no following that sentance up with a 'BUT. . .'!"

sasja

15-02-2006, 01:16 PM

Herald of Doom

15-02-2006, 08:26 PM

Yeah right... heard that one a million times. "Some of my best friends are black... etc. etc.".
Wow, some of my best friends are indeed black what an amazing coincidence! And what gives you the right to call him a biggot? Isn't that the same as him calling some random guy gay? I don't see him being a bigot in his posts even though they could be more diplomatic so stop assuming ^_^

If you had more education than me, it was clearly wasted, since you apparently can't spell correctly.
Hurray for assuming everyone in the world should be able to spell perfectly even though English is their second or third language. I speak and read Dutch,French,English,German and I can speak and understand Spanish and Italian. I'm not in perfect in any of those languages, go sue me and Spiritwalker for making an effort :p

And of course you are talking this rubbish because you can't come up with a decent argument.
Well pardon me but I'll have to agree with him. You don't seem to listen very well, used debating tricks and for what? Blizzard pulled an EXCELLENT PR stunt (as a future journalist I really must applaud whoever arranged this !), nothing changed for better or worst for anyone except that we have a new useless channel.

And now I'll agree that we disagree and stop reading, dinners served ::grin::

HoD

Seraphon

15-02-2006, 09:14 PM

PrismaticEcho

15-02-2006, 09:28 PM

Well pardon me but I'll have to agree with him. You don't seem to listen very well, used debating tricks and for what? Blizzard pulled an EXCELLENT PR stunt (as a future journalist I really must applaud whoever arranged this !), nothing changed for better or worst for anyone except that we have a new useless channel.

And now I'll agree that we disagree and stop reading, dinners served ::grin::

HoD

Actually, they're sending their GMs to "sensitivity training" so that they don't misinterpret the policy again. Gays, lesbians, bisexual, and transsexuals can now freely admit that they are those things in general (or any other channel) without having to worry about being reported, then having some GM with a personal agenda twist the policy against them. Let's not forget that this went beyond simply recruiting for a guild. The GMs were trying to say that we couldn't be open about who we were in the game. Now, that's been fixed. And this is FAR from good publicity for Blizzard. Nice try at trying to turn the situation around in your favour though. I can now shout to the rafters that I'm gay in general if I so choose (not that I would). Your side lost. . . deal with it.

Herald of Doom

16-02-2006, 11:20 AM

Actually, they're sending their GMs to "sensitivity training" so that they don't misinterpret the policy again. Gays, lesbians, bisexual, and transsexuals can now freely admit that they are those things in general (or any other channel) without having to worry about being reported, then having some GM with a personal agenda twist the policy against them. Let's not forget that this went beyond simply recruiting for a guild. The GMs were trying to say that we couldn't be open about who we were in the game. Now, that's been fixed. And this is FAR from good publicity for Blizzard. Nice try at trying to turn the situation around in your favour though. I can now shout to the rafters that I'm gay in general if I so choose (not that I would). Your side lost. . . deal with it.
...

...

In case you didn't notice, most of the people are now going "well done Blizzard". They turned a case with negative PR and even more massive potential negative PR around to where they get praise for using empty measures to fix something a GM did wrong and which got VERY poorly treated PR-wise. Because from what I understand the gblt could already say those things before except in rare cases and I don't know if you ever went to a "training" of any kind but in my case 99% of the people were doodling or joking about what the guy in front on the class was telling :rolleyes:

And would you ****ing quit it with the "my side" comments OK? It's not because I'm arguing with you that I'm on anyones side, I don't take sides I say what I think. I've had it up to here with all the sideway comments about how bigoted everyone is who's against gay people saying they're gay ingame here or on other forums. Let me assure that I am a) not a bigot b) not a homophobe but that I am for equal rights for everyone. If Blizzard decided to ban everyone using the word gay badly I couldnt care less, I'm sure it isn't fun to get offended. What I did have issues with is positive discrimination which I despise in all it forms. OK, now that that's cleared up, I think we can drop the issue, I have to go defend the Danish cartoons on another forum :thumbsup: :flowers:

HoD

Jacksie

17-04-2006, 11:59 AM

Zax.. - exactly.

I haven't seen anything sexually offensive, on my server anyhow. Unless people are really bothered about the "huhu your gay" comments when you mess up (not knowing if your gay or not..).. and if your really hurt by that I've no idea how you cope in the big bad world!

And if people are so worried about being made a target and being abused because of their sexuality - why display it through a "Look at US!" guild; when your sexuality is no-ones business apart from your own.

Number one, I suggest you never once mention your girlfirend/boyfriend/partner or anything to do with your Real life, because that is was you are asking them to do.
A gay person making any reference to their partner singles them out. And "gay" comments are ignorant, and offensive. Can i go around and say.. that's SO black, or that's SO k!ke. Or omg what a n!gg@r. You think there is ANY ounce of difference? There isn't. Just because all your back water middle american friends or peers use those terms, doesn't make it acceptable.

Number two, referring to homosexuality as a life CHOICE (not referring to the quote) is an unschooled comment. It's as ignorant as the above. There is very little choice involved. Do you CHOOSE to be straight? Or are you just straight? Get a clue, read a book, get out of the swamp.:afro:

PS How would u cope in the big bad world? You kick the crap out of the person that said it, that's how. Go walk passed a black person or a jew, and use the above mentioned slang and tell me what the result was.

Aerath

17-04-2006, 12:12 PM

I understand why people get worked up over this, but that's still no reason to resort to insults or by-pass the word filter.

Jacksie

17-04-2006, 12:17 PM

I understand why people get worked up over this, but that's still no reason to resort to insults or by-pass the word filter.

Terribly, sorry, how else would u like me to make clear of the meaning and association of the slang words? the n word people understand when u say that. most wouldnt understand saying "the k" word

Word filters are in place to prevent outright slander. gay should be filtered out as well for the amount of abuse it gets, but it's not. insults? <shrug> i found his comments quite insulting, when you go to a foreign country you'd like to be able to communicate using their language. I only wished to do the same with this chap.

Athame

17-04-2006, 02:03 PM

And what gives you the right to call him a biggot? Isn't that the same as him calling some random guy gay? Only when you're a bigot :laugh:

Using gay as an insult implies that you're a bigot, while using bigot as an insult doesn't imply being gay. :cool:

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 06:24 PM

They have no right to even be in the game IMO =) Or in life. Then again, I do think it's a good thing to not beat kittens, so, I may be wrong.

Stigg

03-08-2006, 06:47 PM

They have no right to even be in the game IMO =) Or in life. Then again, I do think it's a good thing to not beat kittens, so, I may be wrong.

WoW....just wow. You do realize that without a doubt, somebody in your direct heritage was gay...

If you are a descendant of Greeks, Africans, Native Americans or Asains, (and if your not, then you were not born from people from this planet...) homosexuality was an accepted aspect of your heritage. So get over it.

I myself do not see ANY problem with having a gay guild, or a black guild, chinese guild, etc. I am in a "mature" guild on my main's server. We have kicked fully epicd out players many times (and thus preventing us from doing MC) for being immature. I have kicked players on the spot for saying demeaning words about gays and ethnic groups.

But all in the same, I know maturity can not be detected on the surface. I would NEVER advertise on a public forum about joining a gay (or any type of race / religous etc.) guild. The problem is then, immature players will join the guild, and spam stupid crap in the guild chat.

I don't understand people that have issues with gays/blacks/chinese/muslims/ whatever. Who cares?!?! 90% of those of you that have an issue towards these people never have actually sat down and held a conversation with them. And the remnants of 10% of you have met a few, and those few that you met WERE the morons of the group. Being a white heterosexual male, I have met many whites and heteros that I will never speak to again. Does that mean I should shun the rest of the whites and heteros?

I have also met many moronic gays/blacks/chinese/muslims/etc. I brush them off just like I would any other person and find the ones that are mature.

***********
And my 2 cents on the whole "That is so gay" comments. Do not day it. Say, "thats stupid"

You CAN say, "thats queer" queer is by definition "strange or unusual."

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 06:59 PM

Wrong. No one in my family's gay, because if anyone in my family was gay, they wouldn't be family, simple as that. Also, I believe I'm partially greek, but none of the others, and people keep trying to say "Oh, that president was gay." and "Oh, that one wore womens clothing." No. They just want to make gay people a "perfectly fine" thing in the world. It shouldn't be. It may not be a mental illness, but it certainly is a stupid move.

Stigg

03-08-2006, 07:07 PM

Haha your related to greeks and you are saying you have never had somebody in your direct family tree be gay? Go back to school. Your great-great-great-great-......-great grandfather was undoubtably gay, err maybe I shouldn't say gay.....but engaged in homosexual activity. Its ok, so was the rest of the population back then. It was an accepted practice, just as it should be today.

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 07:11 PM

I myself do not see ANY problem with having a gay guild, or a black guild, chinese guild, etc. I am in a "mature" guild on my main's server. We have kicked fully epicd out players many times (and thus preventing us from doing MC) for being immature. I have kicked players on the spot for saying demeaning words about gays and ethnic groups.

But all in the same, I know maturity can not be detected on the surface. I would NEVER advertise on a public forum about joining a gay (or any type of race / religous etc.) guild. The problem is then, immature players will join the guild, and spam stupid crap in the guild chat.

I don't understand people that have issues with gays/blacks/chinese/muslims/ whatever. Who cares?!?! 90% of those of you that have an issue towards these people never have actually sat down and held a conversation with them. And the remnants of 10% of you have met a few, and those few that you met WERE the morons of the group. Being a white heterosexual male, I have met many whites and heteros that I will never speak to again. Does that mean I should shun the rest of the whites and heteros?

I have also met many moronic gays/blacks/chinese/muslims/etc. I brush them off just like I would any other person and find the ones that are mature.

***********
And my 2 cents on the whole "That is so gay" comments. Do not day it. Say, "thats stupid"

You CAN say, "thats queer" queer is by definition "strange or unusual."

I have talked to gay people, I have talked to plenty of gay people. They're all the same: Pieces of crap who don't deserve to live. Also, I've met tons of horrible people, white, black, chinese, everything, I have plenty of friends that are from all sorts of life, I don't discriminate against anyone. Also, gay people are queers, strange or unusual freaks.

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 07:13 PM

Stigg

03-08-2006, 07:17 PM

Haha, you really crack me up. This is by far one of the most humorous conversations I have had in a LONG time. Kind of makes me feel like I'm talking to a 4 year old. BTW, are you four?

Got a question for you. How do you feel about lesbians?

Wrong again. I am NOT related to gay people. People are trying to change history and gay it up, I'm not going to take it up the butt, so to speak.

I have a feeling you are one of those people that don't believe the holocaust happened either right?

Also, gay people are queers, strange or unusual freaks.

A modern day term used to describe people that behave in a different manner than themselves. Freaks is a little out of hand though.

The same thing applies to the f word for homosexuals. It Britain, or old english I should say, faggot meant a bundle of sticks. If I requested a fag in England, somebody would hand me a cigarette.

Anderson Cooper

03-08-2006, 07:18 PM

I have talked to gay people, I have talked to plenty of gay people. They're all the same: Pieces of crap who don't deserve to live. Also, I've met tons of horrible people, white, black, chinese, everything, I have plenty of friends that are from all sorts of life, I don't discriminate against anyone. Also, gay people are queers, strange or unusual freaks.

You don't discriminate? What? You're saying gay people are all the same, "peices of crap who don't deserve to live." You acknowledge that there are some horrible people of parciular races, but that all gays are peices of crap who don't deserve to live.

Maybe the horrible people you've met of those races are gay? Certainly we know that 'gay' isn't a race.

I have a few gays friends..and guess what..they're regular people! OMG! They're regular people who have regular jobs and do regular things. Except they have sex with the same sex! OH NOES!!! TEH WORLD IT END!!! Who ****in' cares who they have sex with? As long as it's consensual and the partner is legal age then it doesn't matter. Gays are no more likely to be child molesters than straights.

Save your hate for someone worth hating. Get a life.

Bryant

03-08-2006, 07:24 PM

As long as the guild doesn't do anything against ToS, then I don't see what the trouble is.

As far as I know, she didn't insult anyone.

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 07:26 PM

Stigg: I'm not four, and sorry, I won't let you be my sugar daddy either. I don't like lesbians either, yup, you heard me, I've always felt that way, even back when I was talking to my friends before going home they would talk about "hot lesbians" and I was like "So you like gay guys too?" and they'd be like "GROSS NO" and I'd say "Lesbians are pretty much the same thing." and they'd think about it and be like "Yeah, I guess you're right." Also, I know that the holocaust happened, I had family in WW2, so thanks for bringing up dead relatives.

Anderson: That's not discrimination, it's a fact. Also, gay might as well be a race, because they all should live in Canada (Which also sucks) and we should bomb it. Gay people aren't regular people, you're just trying to lie now, and I don't take lying lightly. Also, the world will end soon, watch the news? :). Also, what are you talking about? "Save your hate for someone worth hating." I am hating someone who deserves it. Btw, I have a life, I have a beautiful girlfriend, and I have a nice Hot Pocket waiting on me, so.

Stigg

03-08-2006, 07:27 PM

You don't discriminate? What? You're saying gay people are all the same, "peices of crap who don't deserve to live." You acknowledge that there are some horrible people of parciular races, but that all gays are peices of crap who don't deserve to live.

Maybe the horrible people you've met of those races are gay? Certainly we know that 'gay' isn't a race.

I have a few gays friends..and guess what..they're regular people! OMG! They're regular people who have regular jobs and do regular things. Except they have sex with the same sex! OH NOES!!! TEH WORLD IT END!!! Who ****in' cares who they have sex with? As long as it's consensual and the partner is legal age then it doesn't matter. Gays are no more likely to be child molesters than straights.

Save your hate for someone worth hating. Get a life.

Nicely worded. Many meteros that "hate" gays believe that if they walked up to a gay, they would be in danger of getting hit on and/or being put in an akward situation. This is simply not true. Personally I feel bad for girls that have this happen to them all the time. I lived with a gay guy for a year in college. Same room and same bathroom. It worked like any other normal college roomate situation. SOme nights I would come home and there would be a box around the doorboard, so i would crash on the couch. Sometimes I would wake up in the mornign to my roomate having another male in his bed. As would happen in most all normal roomate situations, I woke up, got dressed, said good morning to both of them and went about my day. I got hit on twice out of the hundreds of times he had his homosexual friends over. I simply said, "I'm sorry, I'm not gay." They said ok, and went about their day.

Anderson Cooper

03-08-2006, 07:34 PM

Anderson: That's not discrimination, it's a fact. Also, gay might as well be a race, because they all should live in Canada (Which also sucks) and we should bomb it. Gay people aren't regular people, you're just trying to lie now, and I don't take lying lightly. Also, the world will end soon, watch the news? :). Also, what are you talking about? "Save your hate for someone worth hating." I am hating someone who deserves it. Btw, I have a life, I have a beautiful girlfriend, and I have a nice Hot Pocket waiting on me, so.

Okay so you're just trolling then.

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 07:34 PM

I've been hit on by all of them, gay, straight, bi, and also, no, I'm not homophobic, homophobic means you're scared of them, I'm not scared of them at all.

Stigg

03-08-2006, 07:34 PM

I won't let you be my sugar daddy either

I'll see your sugar daddy, and raise you a friendship. I wouldn't even call you a brother if we left our mothers womb within 10 minutes of eachother.

I don't like lesbians either

Well thats good. Atleast your not one of THOSE guys.

Also, I know that the holocaust happened, I had family in WW2, so thanks for bringing up dead relatives.

Good. I'm glad I did. Maybe you will understand that you are bringing up living breathing human beings that actually matter NOW.

Also, gay might as well be a race, because they all should live in Canada (Which also sucks) and we should bomb it.

Haha are you trying to make people hate you? You do realize there are a fair number of Canadians on this forum as well? But wait, my guess is you could care less about what other people think of you right? GG.

you're just trying to lie now, and I don't take lying lightly

Hahahahahahaha you are funny.

Btw, I have a life

A well balanced one, no doubt!

I have a beautiful girlfriend

I do very much hope that "she" actual turns out to be a "he"

I have a nice Hot Pocket waiting on me, so

I bet a homosexual out there eats Hot Pockets too!

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 07:35 PM

Trolling's a game nerd's words, I like to use the word "Telling the truth about the scum of the Earth."

Bryant

03-08-2006, 07:35 PM

Except they have sex with the same sex! OH NOES!!! TEH WORLD IT END!!!

Because of fags, we have AIDs. That might not end the world, but its killing innocent people who get it from birth.

Gay people cause cancer.

If I requested a fag in England, somebody would hand me a cigarette.

Thats good for England. Im in America, and if you request a fag, then you're getting a homosexual. Fag could mean biscuits and babies for all I care. I'd still use the word fag.

By the way, I don't hate gay people, just pointing out my thougths and facts.

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 07:39 PM

I wouldn't call you a brother either, because I'm not family with gays or gay lovers. Also, gay's aren't people, they're lower than dirt, and dirt doesn't have feelings. I'm partially Canadian dude, so, they can hate me all they want, they'll just be hating themselves, which will be good, because they deserve all the hate they can get. I don't care if people hate me, or love me, they can feel whatever they want about me, I don't care. My girlfriend doesn't have a weiner, I checked. Well, that homosexual didn't touch my hot pockets so, I'm fine.

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 07:40 PM

Gay people cause AIDs and so did some African's who had sex with monkeys too. No, I don't hate black people or anything, it's just the truth.

Edit: Also, I was using "gay" as a polite word so I didn't get banned from the forums. If I wanted to say the real words that fit them it would be "Disgusting faggot piece of sh..." etc etc, but meh.

Bryant

03-08-2006, 07:41 PM

I'll be your friend, Kalzi. We can make babies together and have hott Hungerian butt sex in a non homosexual way.

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 07:43 PM

I prefer hot poontang, but thanks for the offer.

Anderson Cooper

03-08-2006, 07:43 PM

This guy needs the banhammer. It's one thing to have an opinion on the matter, it's another to be spewing hatred.

Stigg

03-08-2006, 07:44 PM

Because of fags, we have AIDs. That might not end the world, but its killing innocent people who get it from birth.

Gay people cause cancer.

[quote]If I requested a fag in England, somebody would hand me a cigarette.[quote]

Thats good for England. Im in America, and if you request a fag, then you're getting a homosexual. Fag could mean biscuits and babies for all I care. I'd still use the word fag.

By the way, I don't hate gay people, just pointing out my thougths and facts.

WHOA!! I was just about to compliment you for your last comment.....but now I don't think I will.

Because of fags, we have AIDs.

Not really...because of bestiality we have AIDs. It was widespread throughout the homosexual world true, but also through the hetero world as well.

That might not end the world, but its killing innocent people who get it from birth.

I'd be more angry at the heterosexuals who still have children even when they are infected.

Gay people cause cancer.

Was that supposed to be funny? Cuz if it was, I surely do not get it. Could you be a little more descrptive on this subject? Cuz I thought for sure that things like the sun, cigarettes, sugar, etc. caused cancer....not sure though, maybe I should go pick up a biology book.

Stigg

03-08-2006, 07:46 PM

This guy needs the banhammer. It's one thing to have an opinion on the matter, it's another to be spewing hatred.

Agreed.

Have your opinion...thats fine by me, but I know I have been banned for far less than these comments.

Looks like we will just have to wait until a Mod steps over to this thread again...

Bryant

03-08-2006, 07:53 PM

Not really...because of bestiality we have AIDs. It was widespread throughout the homosexual world true, but also through the hetero world as well.

See, the problem with that sentence is that that is a theory of how AIDs was given to humans. It is undoubtly a fact that homosexuals were amoung the first to start the wide spread of AIDs. When you have anal sex, you know that thing that homosexuals call intercourse, then you are causing bleeding of the anus 100% of the time. 100%. Being the mathmatician that I am, I know thats everytime. Then you should know that the person taking it up the butt, if he has aids, has just given it to his fudgepacking buddy, who in turn gave it to his other partners. Now, not all men are strictly gay, so those that aren't complete homosexuals then give it to their female partners.

Now unless my sex ed teacher has told me false facts, then I believe Im right.

GG

By the way, its logged that the first hundered or so cases of AIDs were from men. Doctors couldn't do anything to stop it because they wouldn't admit that they had sexual intercourse with another man, so they didn't know how they got it.

MixiMan

03-08-2006, 07:54 PM

Quote:

"I'm partially Canadian dude, so, they can hate me all they want, they'll just be hating themselves, which will be good, because they deserve all the hate they can get."

Do you actually read/think about what you write ?

You are actually saying something like this:

" I dont care if people like me, hate me, because i hate myself. And i deserve it"

Maybe you shouldn't listen to the purple elephant on your shoulder.

Btw,

Gratz on making a viable discussion look like a steaming pile of "you know what"

Cheers

Xlorep DarkHelm

03-08-2006, 07:58 PM

The angst and rather aggressive talk being thrown about in this thread sickens me. Especially by people who kind of seem to be on the same side of the line as I am... but they dove off the deep end and seem to have become disconnected with reality. It is a shame, really. For the record, it is possible to have an intelligent, civil conversation about this topic. It is not necesary to take all the bile and hatred you personally have welled up, and cram it into the wording and phrasing of your posts.

I almost would have joined this conversation further... but I can see that the conversation has devolved into futile bickering and attacks. So with that, I bid you adeau.

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 07:58 PM

Bryant

03-08-2006, 08:04 PM

Anderson Cooper

03-08-2006, 08:05 PM

See, the problem with that sentence is that that is a theory of how AIDs was given to humans. It is undoubtly a fact that homosexuals were amoung the first to start the wide spread of AIDs. When you have anal sex, you know that thing that homosexuals call intercourse, then you are causing bleeding of the anus 100% of the time. 100%. Being the mathmatician that I am, I know thats everytime. Then you should know that the person taking it up the butt, if he has aids, has just given it to his fudgepacking buddy, who in turn gave it to his other partners. Now, not all men are strictly gay, so those that aren't complete homosexuals then give it to their female partners.

Now unless my sex ed teacher has told me false facts, then I believe Im right.

GG

By the way, its logged that the first hundered or so cases of AIDs were from men. Doctors couldn't do anything to stop it because they wouldn't admit that they had sexual intercourse with another man, so they didn't know how they got it.

The real reason that AIDS is mainly seen among homosexuals is not because your ass bleeds every time you have anal sex (which simply isn't true), but because there is a culture of random, unprotected sex within the homosexual community. It isn't as bad now as it was in the late 70s and 80s, but that's the reason the disease was so prevelant among the homosexual community.

With straight couples there's always the fear of getting pregnant, so people are more inclined to take precautions. But up until AIDS, any other STD was no more than a bad weekend, so why use a condom if there's no chance of a baby? There's your reason for seeing it among homosexual men.

Stigg

03-08-2006, 08:10 PM

He deserves a ban...

I get called names like "gaybasher" etc just because I don't want to hear about some guys butt-poundings?

Wrong. Not wanting to hear about homosexual sex does not make you a gay basher, and if that was what you had originally stated, I wouldn't have thought less of you in the slightest. You get called a gaybasher for comments like these:

Also, gay's aren't people, they're lower than dirt, and dirt doesn't have feelings.

If I wanted to say the real words that fit them it would be "Disgusting faggot piece of sh..." etc etc, but meh.

They have no right to even be in the game IMO =) Or in life

No. They just want to make gay people a "perfectly fine" thing in the world. It shouldn't be.

I have talked to plenty of gay people. They're all the same: Pieces of crap who don't deserve to live.

People are trying to change history and gay it up, I'm not going to take it up the butt, so to speak.

Also, gay might as well be a race, because they all should live in Canada (Which also sucks) and we should bomb it.

, what are you talking about? "Save your hate for someone worth hating." I am hating someone who deserves it.

And thats about it.

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 08:10 PM

Bryant, you said "You don't like gays, we get it" yeah, but do you know why? They've killed millions and millions of people, not only from AIDs, but from other things like riots and stuff, you know the whole parade crap they do? Believe it or not they've killed people during that.

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 08:12 PM

Dude, people are trying to change history by saying everyone's suddenly gay, which is COMPLETELY OFF THE TOPIC of real life. Gay people are trying to go "Oh, Jefferson did a guy once." Oh yeah, really? Get me a picture of it. Back then they had more morales than we do now, they wouldn't stoop down to things like that.

Valas Azuviir

03-08-2006, 08:12 PM

Because of fags, we have AIDs. That might not end the world, but its killing innocent people who get it from birth.

Gay people cause cancer.

Concerning statement A. You get to blame chimps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_origin) for that actually. Or to be more precise, the consumption of said animals, which is a fairly common occurence in that part of the world.

Concerning statement B. Proof being?

Anderson Cooper

03-08-2006, 08:13 PM

I'm not spewing hatred, I'm telling the truth, a gay person can say "Ooh, I love taking it up the butt, wow that feels so great." but if I say "Dude, that's gross, don't talk about that gross crap." I get called names like "gaybasher" etc just because I don't want to hear about some guys butt-poundings?

Nobody's forcing you to come into this thread, and this thread isn't even about butt-pounding. It's about whether or not guilds have a right to be friendly towards a particular group, and advertise towards that group rather than being for 'everyone'.

And the fact of the matter is you're not just saying things like "Oh butt pounding is gross and I don't like the idea of it." You're saying that gays are disgusting animals, the scum of the earth, and they "Deserve to be moved to Canada and then bomb Canada". I mean, come on. What is that? That's not in anyway related to this thread, or even productive conversation. It's just hate.

Thanks for sharing your hate, but it's not really necessary. If you want to go through life being a hateful person because you find something some people do to be a little bit gross, that's your perogative. But it really has nothing to do with this topic.

Stigg

03-08-2006, 08:16 PM

They've killed millions and millions of people, not only from AIDs, but from other things like riots and stuff, you know the whole parade crap they do? Believe it or not they've killed people during that.

SO have whites, blacks, asians, wars, governments, muslims, animals.

I guess we should just kill every living thing on this planet?

Dude, people are trying to change history by saying everyone's suddenly gay, which is COMPLETELY OFF THE TOPIC of real life. Gay people are trying to go "Oh, Jefferson did a guy once." Oh yeah, really? Get me a picture of it. Back then they had more morales than we do now, they wouldn't stoop down to things like that.

Who is saying that?

Bryant

03-08-2006, 08:17 PM

The real reason that AIDS is mainly seen among homosexuals is not because your ass bleeds every time you have anal sex (which simply isn't true), but because there is a culture of random, unprotected sex within the homosexual community. It isn't as bad now as it was in the late 70s and 80s, but that's the reason the disease was so prevelant among the homosexual community.QUOTE]

Wrong. I just told you why. Go look it up.

[quote]With straight couples there's always the fear of getting pregnant, so people are more inclined to take precautions. But up until AIDS, any other STD was no more than a bad weekend, so why use a condom if there's no chance of a baby? There's your reason for seeing it among homosexual men.

Thanks, you just added even more fact to what I told you was the truth. When you have anal sex, no matter how gentle you are, and unless you just have an extremly large anus, you cause the muscle in the rectum to tear and rip. THIS CAUSES BLEEDING, AND IS A 100% CHANCE TO SPREAD AN STD (Now called STI's for Sexualy Transmitted Infections) WITHOUT PROTECTION.

Thanks.

Im no longer going to talk about this topic if people can't except the truth and keep thinking theories are facts.

Bryant

03-08-2006, 08:21 PM

Concerning statement A. You get to blame chimps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_origin) for that actually. Or to be more precise, the consumption of said animals, which is a fairly common occurence in that part of the world.

Concerning statement B. Proof being?

Quote from your link:
Possible ways for this virus to have originally infected humans include the hunting and eating of the original primate species; a bite would be another possible route.

...

Since a cross species jump is most likely the origin of HIV

Again, even more theory.

I didn't intially mean gay people are why we have AIDs, but they cause the wide spread of AIDs so rapidly. Also, I was just trying to show Stigg that AIDs did not infact come from some african butthumping a monkey, but there were other ways.

Statement B was a joke. :grin:

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 08:23 PM

Stigg: I'm saying that not only do they kill from AIDs they kill from randomly jumping some guy because he is straight or whatever. As for the "Who's saying that?" thing, you said that. All people are starting to say "This guy was gay." No, he wore weird clothes, but that was the fashion back then, you just wore weird frilly stuff, notice all the other guys wearing it too? Omg, they're so gay, wow. No, they're not. You were saying Greeks are gay, that's pretty much the same thing as saying old presidents were gay, you have no clue, and they weren't, they had riches and fruit and plenty of chick servants, they did chicks.

Stigg

03-08-2006, 08:23 PM

Im no longer going to talk about this topic if people can't except the truth and keep thinking theories are facts.

OOOO please!!! Dont leave yet! I need some help from your brilliant mind!! I am doing a research project on cancer, and because you only state fact, i really need some sources for this comment you said earlier:

Gay people cause cancer.

Bryant

03-08-2006, 08:24 PM

Stigg, scroll up and read my last post. I said it was a joke.

Thanks. I do have a brilliant mind.

I'm going to work out, shower, and take a drug class so I can get my permit which I should have got 2 years ago. Seeing the progressin of about 4 pages every 10 minutes, there will most likely be too much for me to feel like reading when I get back at 10PM EST or so.

Goodluck with this topic. You should all remember that you can't change everyones mind, and this is based all around opinions. The most you can do is find common ground with people who agree with you and hope you outnumber the otherside.

Have fun.:wave:

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 08:25 PM

He said statement b (Gay people cause cancer) was a joke.

MadVlad

03-08-2006, 08:25 PM

Why are you guys even trying to have a conversation with this guy? It's obvious he's a troll.

Stigg

03-08-2006, 08:25 PM

I'm saying that not only do they kill from AIDs they kill from randomly jumping some guy because he is straight or whatever

Haha ORLY? Find me an article ANYWEHRE of this "hate" crime happening.

As for the "Who's saying that?" thing, you said that

Umm, greeks did engage in homosexual activity, as did most cultures back in ancient times. Open a book.....or live your sheltered life...either way....

Didn't notice that joke part...

But anderson COoper is correct. AIDS was widespread through the gay community, as it would have been in the hetero community, but heteros wore condomns out of fear of pregnancy. It doesnt matter that bleeding acccepts AIDS, so do all sexual fluids, meaning straights give AIDS to eachother as well with the same likelihood of homosexuals.

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 08:34 PM

Congrats at another person calling me a Troll, see, I say some truthful things and get bashed for it. I notice that you say "this "hate" crime" but if a straight guy kills a gay guy (Even if he didn't know he was gay) it's automatically considered a hate crime, no matter how you look at it, someone (most likely tons of people) will say it's a hate crime, a white guy kills a black guy, it's a hate crime, black guy kills a white guy, oh, it's just another death.

I hate how everyone does that. It's only a hate crime if it's a "minority" or whatever now-a-days. Also, I've read tons of books, and none of them say greeks were gay in any way, you must've gotten a book made by "Jokes for dummies".

KalziEast

03-08-2006, 08:34 PM

Anyway, I'm gone, tired of discussing this, I'd rather play my game or go 4-wheeling or something. Have fun trying to lie to people.

Bryant

03-08-2006, 08:36 PM

Even if you didn't directly accept my statement at first, atleast you accept that gays did start the widespread of AIDs like I said.

Ha, I win. =D

Stigg

03-08-2006, 08:36 PM

Haha...Im almost in tears laughing so hard at this guy.

buhbye! I'll miss you sweetheart.

Aight, well with him gone I will retire from this thread as well. Until the next moron comes along....

Bryant

03-08-2006, 08:41 PM

Ewww... He's gay.

I knew it!

/sarcasm. You don't have to call me a discriminator.

AeroJonesy

03-08-2006, 09:26 PM

Alrighty folks, unless you'd care to clean up your act and take a serious change of attitude, you can expect to get banned.

At worldofwar.net we don't sponsor any kind of hate. I don't care how rational or logical you think your hatred is, or that you pretend it's not hatred but just "the facts". It's especially ignorant when your facts are wrong.

Now clean up or get out.

goat song

03-08-2006, 09:32 PM

People concerned about this discussion descending into an Official Forums level of stupidity have offered two solutions:

1) Refrain from discussing the issue altogether

or

2) Ban the trolls.

I think it's entirely clear which is the more rational option.

Valas Azuviir

03-08-2006, 10:21 PM

Quote from your link:

Again, even more theory.

I didn't intially mean gay people are why we have AIDs, but they cause the wide spread of AIDs so rapidly. Also, I was just trying to show Stigg that AIDs did not infact come from some african butthumping a monkey, but there were other ways.

Statement B was a joke. :grin:

1) Statement B was not a very funny joke, especially not for those of us who have lost kin and friends to that particular collection of diseases.

2) I am getting the impression that you are unaware of the exact meaning of the word: theory, when it is used by a scientist or someone with a scientiffic background as opposed to when a lay person uses it.

a) When a lay person uses it, more often then not, they're just trying to say that they're guessing.

b) When a scientist or someone with the proper training, uses said word, then it means that said theory is backed up with evidence that can be subjected to testing to show that either the evidence doesn't prove what is claimed or that the theory is incomplete because it does not deal with with particular instances/situations. For more info and examples of theories like relativity, dark matter, black holes, evolution etc, please see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory).

c) In this case, the exact situation: bite or consumption cannot be verified due to the passage of time, but both are equally plausible. The premise that we're talking about a cross species jump is a rather sound one, because we do have evidence of other diseases making the same jump from one species to another. Whether that be smallpox, bird flu, BSE to CJD or in this case aids, makes the initial cause fairly irrelevant, because they've already managed to establish that it was a cross species jump.

3) Your initial statements with regards to gays causing AIDS left little room for the side step that you are now proposing. In addition, your current claim does not addresses the issue of either infection through heterosexual contact as was the case with Arvid Noe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvid_Noe), or blood to blood contact as was the case with Margrethe Rask (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grethe_Rask), her particular scenario also applying to drug addicts who use(d) non-steralized needles when applying their fix. From roughly the start of the 60s unto now the use of narcotics for "recreational use" steadily increased/is increasing and a large percentage of said individuals who applied/apply their fix in that way were male. Thus inflating the numbers..

4) Anal intercourse need not lead to bleeding 100% of the time, that is dependant upon amount of lubrication, use of a condom, size of the partner, the roughness with which the act is performed, stress level of the receiver (whether or not they clench or relax), and how many times it has been practised before (with repeated contacts making it likelier that something will be damaged, though again no guarantees).

5) There is no such thing as someone not being a complete homosexual. A person is gay/lesbian, bisexual or heterosexual, with bisexuals having a threeway subdivision of those mainly attracted to their own gender, those mainly attracted to the opposing gender, and those with no particular preference and it all being dependant upon the person they are with at that moment.

6) As for your implied claim with regards to the first folks diagnosed with HIV/AIDS and that they must all have been gay. Suggest you read the misconceptions bit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_misconceptions_about_HIV_and_AIDS). Said numbers are skewed, because of the risk groups involved. I also point to Mr. Noe again and the number of female prostitutes that he infected and who in term infected other customers as well.

And on a non-related note.

Goat Song, both the options you mention would be the wisest choice, trolls tend to be drawn to the same feeding grounds. Banning the initial feeders, will not discourage more from showing up to also feed. Banning and destroying the sustenance source is the best way to get rid of them on a forum.

Lastly, as for Ancient Greece and homosexuality or to be more exact Pederasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece). There should be enough source material there for anyone with an interest.