WoW Teaches the Wrong Things Soapbox

[Rushster]

<br><br><p>Gamasutra has posted a new Soapbox feature by Backbone designer/producer David Sirlin entitled <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060222/sirlin_01.shtml">World of Warcraft Teaches the Wrong Things</a>. So what is WoW teaching us? Are players learning all the wrong values?* David digs deep and looks at the underlying issues WoW may be inadvertently teaching us all. Here's a snip:</p><blockquote dir="ltr" style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><p><font size="2">1. Investing a lot of time in something is worth more than actual skill. If you invest more time than someone else, you &quot;deserve&quot; rewards. People who invest less time &quot;do not deserve&quot; rewards. This is an absurd lesson that has no connection to anything I do in the real world. The user interface artist we have at work can create 10 times more value than an artist of average skill, even if the lesser artist works way, way more hours. The same is true of our star programmer. The very idea that time &gt; skill is alien.</font></p></blockquote>

[SLUGFly]

although this is only one point, I agree 100%

I played GW for a long time before finally getting in the proper position to be able to activate my WoW account. Unlike so many others, I refuse to take the stance of WoW vs. GW, both have great features.

The world of WoW is immense, intense, it is an amazing world and unlike so many GW fanbois I can't really see how it's "too cartoonish." It seems just as beautiful a world as the GW world but with 5-10 times more space and a lot less linearity.

But, the GW combat model beats WoW hands down. The way of PvP combat (and even PvE combat) relies almost entirely on skill. Your speed, you're knowledge of what skills counter other skills and other classes, your inter-team coordination and communication, strategies and planning. At this point (and I admit, I'm still a noob) the only real strategy I've seen used effectively or even proposed within WoW is pulling.

[Marlas]

he has some good points

[Twoflower]

he has no good points whatsoever, sry...

he compares RL whit a game all the time. Or he compares it whit Streetfighter, which surely is a completely different game. When he dosnt he complains about how his freedom to use the game is limited by Tos and other rules blizzard only invented to annoy him.

He comes from a world of solo skill based games, like his streetfighter or shooters or RTS. These games have in common that they are all based on individual skill, not on group "skill", or teamplay. WoW is not. WoW is a virtual world, and even though skill surely benefits you in some way or another handling certain encounters inside this world, it is not necessary.

You dont need to "win" WoW. He sounds like a player who plays for winning. Again, this comes from his choice of skill based games. This also explains his rant about the honor system.

my guess is that he started playing and noticed far too late that he cannot "own" others like in his skill based games and now decided to rant about it instead of letting the 5 billion people who actualy enjoy it play the game they like...

[glokskee]

I agree with twoflower no good points at all he is just a complainer and should be ganked on sight, its also funny how he said he would think of joining blizzard some day if he ever did i would quit wow.

the game WOW is the best in its class hands down

[deathgrasp]

flower, i agree with him about the point of time spent>skill.
think about it: in PVE, there is almost no skill at all, the only ones that require it are the first people that encounter the new mob and has to figure the way to defeat it. when you encounter a new mob, i can easly program you the actions of all the classes in most encounters. lets take onyxia as an example, alliance side. entering the lair, the tank run to the other end of the cave, till the wall in his back, spamming the buttoms 1-3(taunts). the healers run after him, spamming the keys 1-2(heal or HOT). after some time, somone shout "attack", and all the classes spam 1-3 keys, which are generaly are "main dmg skill/spell" and -aggro skill/spell and maybe a dot or 2 for locks.

phase 2: onyxia starts to fly. warlocks/hunters/rogues start shotting it(no keys at all for rogues!). warriors taunt the little dragons that come, mage aoe them. priest still use 1 buttom to heal.

phase 3: onyxia land and start casting fear. priests continue to heal, but: a dwarf spell key has unlocked! now ones every 30 seconds, he casts Fear Ward on the main tank! the rest continue to spam dmg on the dragon after the shout "attack".

there is no tactic at all here, beside the warrior that need to pull dragon to the other side of wall and the dorf that has to cast the FW every 30 seconds on him.

in pvp, there is a little more skill required. melee classes, when fighting magic users will walk around them to make them unable to launch the spell at them, while the magic users will have to know when is the right moment to spin(and which side) to launch the spell at the opponent. elves will know when and how to use shadowmeld to either interrupt enemy spell cast or not to be seen by opponent and launch the first attack. dorf will use their stoneskin ability in order to remove poisons made by rogues/hunters. also the pvp require a few more buttoms, like mana burn etc.
but, in the end, there is pretty much a cap of where your skills can effect. the rogue cant walk faster, the mage cant cast faster, the priest can reset his cooldowns etc, which in the end, if both sides are smart the win will go to the ones which had more time to grind better items, or to the class which has suppirior skills over the other side.

[Jojin]

The only point I could agree on is the time isue. The rest is uterly crap.

Group > Solo
This also counts in real life. You should be better rewarded for harder fights and at the moment that are the 40 man dungeons, but Bliz is going to add more solo content.

Guilds
You can join more guilds with different alts.

The Terms of Service
You just need rules to keep a good gaming atmosphere.

[NORMLLikeMe]

for me his article is purely a complaint....not one to be shoved aside..but a point most indivuals in life have come to accept

just because you're good at something doesn't mean your're recognized for it..

his point is..he's a god..and he's pissed others don't see that...(in his eyes anyways)

most will argue one way or the other...i agree..the game does have a skill point importance feel to it..or we should get all points no matter what...

who can say they deserve something more than another? who will be the judge to create such a system..i have yet to meet someone deserving of this title

in short..i just wanna say...life isn't fair..so deal with it

thanks

[Saboteur]

I agree with the article with regards to "time vs. skill vs. the real life".

However, what he's negleting is...

Time > Skill is a good business model for an MMORPG. If Blizzard can make a system that forces every player to remain subscribed for X amount of time to accomplish Y, and have fun while doing it, they've hit the jackpot. And they have.

Of course, those who have actually went to the top of the PvP system or other similar grinds like reputation, see through this and know that it's not fun. However, most players are happy with it, and the rewards are so good that they do drive players to plunge through the grind. If skill could override a month of grinding, Blizzard would, in the long run, see their subscribers end their subscriptions earlier. Sure, they are out to make good games... But good games are, in the end, only an instrument to make more money. And money is what it is all about. Those developers striving to make good games have to eat and pay their rent/mortgages somehow.

And the counterargument to my point: "Time > Skill may be a good business model, but wouldn't it be possible to devise a game where Skill > Time and still make the same amount of money?"

The answer to that question is very likely "yes". Earning models change over time in every industry, and particularly often in IT and media/games. WoW has a life span that's probably calculated in detail over at Blizzard HQ, and if they're smart, they're most likely already at work designing new earning models, new games, and new ideas.

Time > Skill is just what they came up with, and when the illusion fades, it's time to roll out new products.

[Goretusker]

Actually time vs skill is not a wrong translation of rl at all. I dont know wher he got that idea from.

I am a student and we dont get to pass any exams if we did nöt spent at least 3 and a half years and a set amount of hours per week in seminars and readings, no matter how skilled we are to begin with.

I study education and one of my teaching subjects is french as a foreign language. I grew up in france and i am fully bilingual, that doesn't mean i get to skip pronouciation classes i have to sit through the seminars although my pronounciation is better than that of the teacher.

Of course there are parts of real life where someone more skilled can progress faster (which happens in WoW) and sometimes are even successful right away but both concepts time>skill and skill>time exist in RL depending on the area you consider. A third concept is connections>skill&time that exists in RL and to some extent in WoW but skill based solo games don't take that into consideration at all.

The Group>solo argument is even more stupid as in any proffession you want to learn nowadays the word is: teamwork. Brilliant scientists like einstein who make huge discoveries in their small studies on their own don't exist anymore. Nowadays its teams of researchers, teams of managers, cooperation everywhere...

So don't tell me WoW teaches the wrong things if there's a game that does its damn sure SF.

The whole terms stuff isn't better as in RL you get various sets of laws.
Firstly there are descriptive laws, those describe what is actually possible, and are more commonly referred to as laws of nature od laws of physics, these can be compared to the game engine.
Secondly there are prescriptive laws, those laws say what you are alowed to do, They are more commonly referred to as both ethics and laws, these can be compared to terms

Asking for a MMORPG that allows everything that is possible within it's engine is the real world paralell to asking to allow what we commonly consider crime (murder/theft), which is phisically possible but luckily forbidden by law.

I'll give him that guilds are more rigid than RL social groups, but thats about the only thing he is right about and his essay can be dismissed as completely worthless.

PS: while it is theoritically possible that a player who has played SF or MTG for an hour is better than one who has played a thousand and consistently beats him, I can very securely say that this is practically impossible so the inequation skill>time is only partly true for those games (and any sports, proffessions or other areas of expertise) too

[Oy of Midworld]

Last time I checked, we play games to get away from real life, not to re enact it.

[Krollin]

WoW rewards players for achieving things in many different ways.
Of these rewards only 1 requires that you put time into it continually in order to maintain that level, this is the PvP Honor System.

Things like reputation require no skill at all to build up, you simply put enough time into grinding it and, assuming you have enough skill to do what you need to do, you will get their eventually.

Where the skill comes into things is how quickly you acheive your aims.

WoW caters for players of all levels, from one who plays infrequently to someone who is on 12 hours a day. To allow this to happen skill should not be an overwhelming factor in allowing you to progress but it should be the limiting factor which determines how fast you get there.

[DanH]

he's absolutely right, why should people be rewarded for hard work and dedication? alien to me.

[Twoflower]

about the time spend > skil thingy : sure it s true, but that s how all MMORPGS work. if he dosnt like it he shouldnt play these games.

[WingedNazgul]

He's comparing apples to oranges. I come from a FPS background where skill > everything else. I know better than to try to apply this to the MMORPG world where time > everything else.

[Urrakat]

This kind of "complaints" really makes me laugh.
Time > Skill?
Of course! this is a RPG... there is no RPG in which you start with uber gear and skills, and start "owning" right away. Time invested is actually the core of every RPG.

This guy obviously has played too much street fighter and FPS games lol

If you don't like the Time>Skill fact, then stay away from RPG. As simple as that.

[Goretusker]

To answer oy of middleworld

That is actually to simplistic.

The theory underlying the essay discussed here, that implies people and animals alike play to learn behaviour in a danger free environment, goes back a few thousand years and has been perpetuated by influential people like the German author and Philosopher Schiller:"Der Mensch ist nur da ganz mensch wo er Spielt" and the french psychologiost Piaget, to name a few. While this theory it is still discussed and we know today that the issue is more complex it is still accepted in psychology, anthropology, pedagogics and philosophy as a base for discussion.

So I should say no we don't play to get away from RL.

[Oy of Midworld]

To answer oy of middleworld

That is actually to simplistic.

The theory underlying the essay discussed here, that implies people and animals alike play to learn behaviour in a danger free environment, goes back a few thousand years and has been perpetuated by influential people like the German author and Philosopher Schiller:"Der Mensch ist nur da ganz mensch wo er Spielt" and the french psychologiost Piaget, to name a few. While this theory it is still discussed and we know today that the issue is more complex it is still accepted in psychology, anthropology, pedagogics and philosophy as a base for discussion.

So I should say no we don't play to get away from RL.

How long have you been waiting to use that as a response?

[niteshade6]

I have to agree with Goretusker that Time>skill in the real world as well. There is the famous saying that success is 10% inspiration and 90% persperation. If you don't work hard and put alot of time into things you will be unlikely succeed no matter you do. In almost all cases a mediocre person who works extremely hard will succeed over a brilliant one who is lazy.

Now other people will say that there is no reason why a game has to reflect reality and I can't disagree with that either. But the whole point of the original article is that WoW teaches you the wrong things about the real world, and that is just BS. The author is just trying to come up with a more intellectual way of justifying the fact that he does not like the game.

[Houdy]

The author sounds like a cry-baby, whiny, disgruntled casual player..nothing more, nothing less.

[Urrakat]

The author sounds like a cry-baby, whiny, disgruntled casual player..nothing more, nothing less.
Hey! there's nothing wrong with casual players! :rolleyes:

I'm a casual player, but I'm aware that if I want the best gear in the game I will have to invest a lot of time doing instances and stuff. I don't have much time to play, so I'm doomed to have "mediocre" or "fair good" gear myself (even worse my main is warrior :embarassed: )

But yes I agree, he sounds like a cry-baby whiner

[cyradis2003]

Time in an RPG kind of equals age if you think about it and there are not many things a 3 year old can do better than a 20 year old unless it involves bodily functions or cutesy expressions.

[Texsus]

Yes, im way cuter than any 3 year old when i wanna be.

[cyradis2003]

Yes, im way cuter than any 3 year old when i wanna be.

*flutters eyelashes*

Well, Helloooo Tex! :girly:

But seriously of course more time in = better equipment and more experience in any given situation. There are people that naturally pick up skills in the game but just because a person is decked in epics doesn't mean they are any less skilled.

I get a little tired of hearing people whine after duels "you only beat me because you are MC equipped" (not to me of course, I am still in junk at the mo) "you only won because you feared" "you beat me because you used this pet/that pet/ the other pet" "you won because you are a warlock/hunter/mage/rogue etc" People will come up with any excuse to make it not their fault they lost at a duel or needed help with an elite or why a party selects another person over them. Maybe sometimes it is just because the other player is more experienced or the class is more in keeping with the party they want or they are just better in general.

[Goretusker]

How long have you been waiting to use that as a response?

I study this sh***

[Houdy]

we have a few people in our guild that have won duels and heard "its only cuz you have all epic gear on".. then put on blue gear and still owned em.
what these whiners fail to grasp is that, yeah.. these people with full epics, have spent just as long, if not exponentially longer, playing than you have.

they know their class... it comes from time played.
i believe that little fact is often overlooked.

[SkipsH]

Id just like to note that this guy you are all flaming is posting on a noted game development website and knows very, very well what he is talking about. He isnt a whiner as you are saying, whining is different, he is making a point and and backing up with facts, whining is saying man they are just too l33t for me and they suck. Its not a blog or anything and what he is writing is actually industry standard.

[Houdy]

no.. he is a whiner and a moron.
he cant grasp what this game is about and why people are rewarded the way that they are.
its how it is, and whenever it changes (if it does) the whiners will still complain.

you could take all blues and turn em to purples.. and all purples and turn em to oranges..
and the casual player will still say "i need an orange"...

if they dont like the game... leave. simple enough.

shortsighted casuals fail to see how much work goes into being an epic player and completing epic encounters.
i know this.. i was once a casual asking for more than i deserved.
i have a good friend who lives next door, a casualplayer..he comes over and watches what i do.. and he's amazed at how much it takes.. straightens him right out.

sigh.... endlass debate..
dont like it, quit.

[Sparrisen]

about the time spend > skil thingy : sure it s true, but that s how all MMORPGS work. if he dosnt like it he shouldnt play these games.

This is an incorrect statement, but granted, most MMORGPS work this way.

The time>skill aspect is obvious in getting better, try as you might, but it's darn hard to beat a level 60 epic geared character with a level 10, even if the level 60 one is played by a three year old, and it does in general take more time to get the character to level 60.

If you play to be the best, it might be an unpleasant revelation that it will take a while to get there, but since I play because of the RP and people in the game, this doesn't bother me much. Everyone who wants to power level, twink their lowbies, and even sometimes gank their surroundings with their uber 60 char because it feels so nice to really piss someone off, are of course free to do that, which I don't mind, since it's not in any way a defeat to be ganked by such a person.

But I agree that it would be better if you learned something useful by playing, that you can use in RL. To be a "skilled" WoW player requires more common sense than a sharp wit, and if you don't have a common sense before you sit down and play WoW, it's not very likely that you'll get one from playing either.

The only things I've learned by playing WoW that I value, comes from the RP, which Blizz doesn't really even encourage very much.

[SkipsH]

Id say this guy actually had a far better "grasp" of the game than you. He understands exactly what it is about and argues that maybe it could be improved, he isnt a "casual gamer" and isnt complaining about not having any "sweet epixxx" he is making a point about how much time those take to get and then once you have them how much of an unfair advantage that gives you. I recently started playing a warlock and I take a sense of pride in achieving stuff by myself in a game, asking around about mounts due to somthing Id read I found it kinda a kick in the teeth that I actually need to get help to get it rather than being able to deal with it myself. I take pride in my ability to do stuff myself and I like being able to show off what Ive acomplished hence "playing alone with others" I love being in a guild and having some great guys to play with, but I often wonder what all those other people "out there" would make of me if I took the time to sit down and chat with them.

I actually play on an RPPVP server scarshield legion, and Ill tell you that no real RP goes on, Ive gone into a couple of random places and organised with a couple of people to get a fun player run event set up, so I go into orgrimmar and start acting out this bit in the hope that someone will show enough curiosity in what Im doing to actually come up and ask (I was playing a very stupid orc warrior that had got his hand stuck in the letter box, before you ask) Anyway Im sat there for about half an hour and not a single person asks about this poor orc making a huge fuss about having his hand stuck (It was actually a race through orgrimmar for three people to get a certain item which was on sale at the AH for a slightly higher than should be price and then up and over to UC to deliver it before the others could get there, if they could get inside duel range once the item was had then if they one a duel against the item carrier then they got the item, anyway the first to UC to a person I had stationed there would have gotten about 5 gold. Not a single person showed any interest. (Wow that was off topic)

[M@D_3D]

I'm suprised that, for a set of generally weak arguments, the article lacks in rhetoric. Even if we assume that success at WoW involves no skill watsoever, or that skill just pops out of nowhere and is completely unrelated to the time one spends developing it, the article is still not convincing.

The problem is that the focus is made on the differences between two opposite playing styles rather than the things that WoW teaches that are objectively wrong.

In fact, I find that the things the author suggests would only take WoW farther away from teaching truth. For example, i detest his isolationism and severe anarchism.

No man is an island; the idea that what we need is being "alone together" is absurd - it calls for distanced observation and not actual unity with others. Hell, the contradiction in the term is itself laughable.

Second, the escapsim that the author expresses (the ability of exploring any possibility not available in the real world) is contrary to his earlier points that related the virtual world to the real world. Well, sir, lets relate. What would abiding by no other rules but the game code (no other rulling authority that governs the player base) - what would this teach the player? Ought we to only abide by the physical laws of the real world? Well, something tells us it is wrong and really weird to corpse-camp your victims in real life... But the "code" (i.e. physical reality) allows us to do such... absurd things. By no means does this imply that we ought to. This desire to shake off all moral or legal authority is exactly what leads to a sick and disjointed society.

Wait a tick... I'm pretty sure we already live in one. Never mind...