Logitech keyboards can get you banned! [Archive] - Unofficial World of Warcraft Forums

moopy

03-03-2006, 12:49 PM

Below is a link to a page detailing the shoddy treatment that someone I know has had from blizzard's "customer service" department. He plays WoW under WINE on Linux (like many people do/did), and uses a logitech programmable keyboard.

All attempts to contact blizz about the ban have met with ignorebot responses. Any posts that anyone makes about it on the official forums are removed. Given that he's one of the original members of a raiding guild with BWL on farm probably reveals the sort of player he is (skilled, driven maybe, but certainly no cheat). I feel that this is really shabby treatment. He was banned immediately- no warnings, no advice from GMs, no comeback.

http://infernix.net/wowban/

It's TEH suxx. The customer service that we're used to from blizzard now.

stefanw

03-03-2006, 01:09 PM

I feel sorry for him, but I doubt the keyboard itself did it. Must have been something else. Why? Because. (http://www.zboard.com/europe/products/keyset_wow.asp) ;)

moopy

03-03-2006, 01:13 PM

Yes, I suspect that it's because he was running the game under WINE rather than windows. However, it's hard to be sure, because as per usual, blizz just banned without warning, discussing or informing. He couldn't even get a blue reply from the forums, because being banned, he couldn't post. What's more, anyone else posting about it has had their post deleted too.

He uses a Logitech gaming keyboard (http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/details/GB/EN,CRID=2288,CONTENTID=10717), which would also seem to be aimed squarely at the same market as the zboard users:

"The 18 programmable "G Keys" allow you to execute macros—like casting spells in World of Warcraft—with a single button press"

So, it's either this keyboard that is to blame for the "botting" (it was being used for weapon switching etc), or WINE itself. Both famous ways to cheat at WoW, eh?

So, for people who have to maintain a stable machine because they are playing while on-call etc, and choose to use WINE to run WoW under Linux (something I have done myself on occasion when I needed to) had better watch out. Just a friendly warning to fellow players. I shan't be using WINE to run WoW until this has all been cleared up, at least.

DotComm

03-03-2006, 01:23 PM

I saw that on the official forums this morning. I have one of the aforementioned keyboards and tbh I'm very nervous of using it to its full potential now that I've seen this treatment.

That Zboard is nothing like the G15. The G15 has 54 extra macro keys per game that are programmable on the fly from within wow. I think the problem comes when the priest set up macros to equip different gear, to heal himself, etc, then hit them occasionally while watching a film to level up his weapon skill. It may well appear to Blizzard that someone is using a bot because one keystroke performs 3 or 4, I dunno.

Anyway, I'm very nervous of using my keyboard now that I've seen the treatment I can get for having one :(

SB

eXeel

03-03-2006, 01:34 PM

I don't think there is any other reason. The fact that he used WINE and a keyboard with macros could be enough.

The problem is that obviously, if this case is true, Blizzard is taking a few innocents along, to get more guilty people. That should never happen!
Even if you can frame 100 or 1.000 more guilty people, by following a line that also harms a few innocents, that really is never the way.

What would be the right step from here on, is to unban Infernix as his story might hold true and if the Non-Illegal keyboard can actually do this, then they need to make a statement about the use of these keyboards and what is and is not allowed.
At the moment, their last official stand on this area was that the keyboards was okay. There were no direct, clear statement on what wasn't allowed with them. So a punishment like this is very unacceptable...

I've worked on a smaller administration team on an online manager game, browser-based, and if there is one thing I've learned from that, it is the importance of always giving the user the benefit of the doubt.
If an action the user can do, can be confusing for you as an admin as it makes it hard to see if he is cheating or not, you make an announcement about it, add a rule or something to prevent the behaviour that might be suspicious. Or you allow it.

Never have I banned a person for something and not taken that action back, after hearing his believable explanation and thinking about how his story might very well hold water.

Baboon

03-03-2006, 01:35 PM

I used to get banned from battle.net with Diablo2 for using my mousewheel to cast spells. Blizz is famous for drastic measures.

They said I was using an external program. With D2 you weren't allowed to run anything besides D2. I said it were mouse drivers. Didn't help.

In some other thread someone said Blizzard has a good customer service. IMHO they usually act like they're untouchable and any decision by them is the best one. And there's no second opinion.

stefanw

03-03-2006, 01:42 PM

moopy

03-03-2006, 01:46 PM

Baboon,

Ouch, that sucks too, plus ca change. Blizzard's dreadful customer service has always been in danger of marring their admiteddly excellent games, it would be a shame if WoW was ruined due to a bunch of tinpot ignorebot dictators.

I've run a couple of instances with Infernix, one look at his uber-imba extra untankability "death from above" abilities make it obvious that he's a really skilled player. I have to say that the sorts of people that spend months learning to best BWL aren't the sort who resort to bots for quick and easy levelling. He just doesn't need it, and indeed tends to deliberately throw himself at the hard/dangerous challenges before the easy. Yes, it means he's hard to heal, but he's certainly no botter :)

Oh, and to the above poster who says the z-board is nothing like the logitech, read the quote from the page that you linked to:

"Macros enabled keys perform multiple actions and reveal emotions like laughing and roaring in victory at the push of a button."

Yes, the keyboard might need more driver support than the logitech one to do this, but as Baboon pointed out, blizz are more than happy to ban you for using manufacturer's drivers, too.

DotComm

03-03-2006, 02:01 PM

I didn't see the link since it's filtered at work. My ex housemate had a Z board and I don't recall him having the ability to create macros, certainly not to the extent that I can with my G15 that's for sure.

SB

moopy

03-03-2006, 02:07 PM

Dot,

The g15 is way way more powerful, it's true. However, the z-board can, according to the manufacturer, be used to trigger macros. However, unlike logitech, they seem to be part of some form of cross-promotion deal with blizzard, with officially licensed artwork on their keyboard, links from their site and even an ad leaflet for the keyboard itself in my game box. Draw your own conclusions too.

The worst thing about all this is that I never really paid much attention to the g15, and now I have looked at it, I kinda want one. However, I too am nervous about using one for WoW, or indeed even just playing the game in a totally focussed manner without the occasional stupid emote or "/say ROFL!!!!", just in case someone mistakes me for a bot and bans me. I will have to stop using WINE to run the game, which sucks because I find Windows to be less stable, and and it's certainly less secure than my heavily locked-down Linux install.. /cry

The g15 does indeed look sweet, I'd be way more jealous of your cool keyboard if I wasn't too scared to use one.

SkipsH

03-03-2006, 02:19 PM

Two points about this, I just took a look at that account volcano, and Im worried about Blizzard employees following this as well, my first ever "offence" was a three hour suspension without a warning. I emailed them and actually got a response that they were sorry and possibly the action had been a little drastic but their decision stayed and the warning would stay on my account.

Also anyone else noticed that Blizzards auto-email spells botting wrong?

The thing that worries me is that they are afraid to admit that they are ever to blame or wrong, wonder if the first time they do it will be like Sadam Hussein, at trial fighting for their collective life.

moopy

03-03-2006, 02:47 PM

SkipsH,

I am sure that Infernix would have been delighted with a mere three-hour suspension, especially if it also included information about what he had actually done wrong.

However, sorry to hear that you've been treated shabbily. I have (touch wood) yet to be screwed over by a GM, the closest that I have come is completely failing to get anything other than an automated response, ever. That's bad enough, but maybe I should be counting my blessings.

tagkc

03-03-2006, 03:25 PM

On a related note - this news makes me very leery about using my Belkin Speedpad N52..... It has some pretty powerful macro abilities in its drivers.

jengelke

03-03-2006, 05:46 PM

On a completely different note, yet somehow related, my boss at work here reminds me of Blizzard and their unrelenting view that they are always right, regardless of whether its good for the customer or not. Makes you wonder, huh?

ocellaris

03-03-2006, 06:24 PM

At the time of the ban I had configured my keyboard to switch weapons, cast hex of weakness and renew myself, all with the press of a button.

I had put myself on /DND with the note that I was watching movies and was not paying much attention to the game, which i muted because of the movies I was watching. Now it is quite well possible that during that time people contacted me in-game without me replying. After all, it was from the late hours of Saturday till the early hours of Sunday and I was watching the movie screen 99% of the time. After pushing the macro keys for some hours I found myself logged off and unable to log back in. However, unattended is simply not the case, as I was near the computer

...

I have tried to explain in great detail that I was using my programmable macro keyboard, and I was not using 3rd party software to gain an unfair advantage. During the I used the macro keyboard I did not gain anything except about 30 skillpoints in my Priest weapon skills, which I am positive your logs will show

Sure, I bet the only time he ever had that keyboard attached was when skilling up those weapons. I guess skilling up some weapons with your fancy new macros never hurts anyone. So that makes it ok, right? NEWFLASH: This is cheating. Using Logitech keyboards does not get you banned, using automation to have the game played for you gets you banned.

Ban him, and props to Blizzard for catching it. I hope this cheater never gets his account back.

bwirum

03-03-2006, 06:36 PM

And you really don't think it was a bit drastic doing this right away?

aefa

03-03-2006, 06:40 PM

NEWFLASH: This is cheating. Using Logitech keyboards does not get you banned, using automation to have the game played for you gets you banned.

Actually the use of the keys are allowed it seems, even if they do perform multiple actions for you.

The criteria seems to be that you're not looping the macros, so you can activate the macro, take the dog for a walk and come back with the macro still running.
This wasn't the case though, in this case the user was pushing the keyboard everytime he wanted an action (or multiple, but that's besides the point)performed.
What however did earn him a ban was that Blizzard saw his lack of response coupled with the macroable keyboard as conclusive evidence that he was botting.

jengelke

03-03-2006, 06:41 PM

You know, I can program my mouse to do many different things other than click. It comes with an external program to do so. I have 15 buttons on my mouse and it's hailed as a gaming mouse, the reason I bought it. By definition, the keyboard that has WoW art and is supported by Blizzard can do much of the same as described. In fact, I bet you can make a macro button to put on your skillbar that does exactly that, switch weapons, cast a spell on your target and cast a spell on yourself, all at once. Then, I bet you could make a key on your keyboard activate that macro. If I'm not mistaken, there are a few mods out there that do nearly the same thing. Are there not a few mods that equip and de-equip riding gear when you activate your mount?

Well, that's automation, so it must be cheating. What about all the macros out there in the first place. If you make a macro that makes you say something in local chat while you cast a spell, by definition, that's cheating, because you are automating the chat while you are clicking a spell.

moopy

03-03-2006, 06:47 PM

Interesting. I have a macro, written in lua, which does something very similar. It allows me to change weapons, pop a shield and renew myself. I can operate it with one finger, while chatting on the phone, filing my nails, eating cake, whatever.

How is it cheating? There are countless mods which carry out their functions with the mashing of a single button... BuffAhoy, SPHunterSpam, Decursive and the like. All those fishing assist macros do very similar things. The difference, if there is one, is that the keyboard is less capable/powerful than a macro, it cannot make conditional decisions, just repeat a few very simple actions. It's darned useful for silly emote macros or tedious repetition, but you can't just leave the room and have it play the game for you. You have to sit there, press the keys, the usual thing.

All Infernix was doing was sitting there, with half an eye on WoW, watching TV and mashing that button. How swapping weapons and casting a buff is botting is quite beyond me, there are mods to do this sort of thing hosted on the very lovely ui.worldofwar.net anyway, which are a great deal more powerful and intelligent than his keyboard.

Anyway, there's always one, it's the nature of the bell curve.

ocellaris

03-03-2006, 06:47 PM

Within the game, each press of a WoW key tied to an in-game macro can perform (1) action. Regardless of how much you put in a macro, it will only cast one spell or action for each time you click it, this is the intent of it. You can swap targets and check multiple things within each macro or action, but you can never do something like cast two heals with one button press.

He used the keyboard macro to perform multiple casts, he would press the key once, the keyboard would then press buttons for him with delays between each press. This is automation, and overriding the intent of the game.

It allows me to change weapons, pop a shield and renew myself.

Only casting the Renew spell counts in this case, weapon switching and target switching are "free" actions. You could never get that to cast Renew AND another spell.

moopy

03-03-2006, 06:56 PM

jengelke,

Nice observation, and well-said. The g15 is indeed sold as a "gaming keyboard". I was halfway through trying to explain how I used the extra buttons on my mouse to trigger macros that I have made, but I think you just did a better job than me.

As it stands, it seems, performing boring, repetitive actions (ever collected larval acid?) over and over and not answering whispers is enough to get you banned. That's really bad news for those of use who hide our chat window behind the combat log while tweaking gear for dmg or farming materials. It's also really bad news for those of us who have to disregard large amounts of whisper spam for PUGs. What next? Bugging priests endlessly until they stop reading whispers and then reporting them for botting? Interesting times.

The worst thing is that I hadn't seen one of these keyboards before poor Infernix got banned for using one/not replying to whispers quickly enough for the taste of a random autocrat GM. In any normal circumstances, I'd be placing an order for one of those badass input devices right away, as I can see loads of uses for it (and remember kids, don't store your root passwords in your keyboard). However, as things currently stand, I'd be too worried about buying/using them. Has anyone asked Logitech's marketing department if they're aware that actually using their wonderful product for playing WoW as they suggest can lead to a ban?

ocellaris,

You're right of course, but fundamentally, in practise, a lot of the mods out there that support button mashing obviate this problem. You spam the button until it has done the job, then you stop spamming it. This is how things like BuffAhoy or SPHunterspam work. It really doesn't net any huge advantage, as you don't need to pay attention or keep count. The mod does that for you.. so you just carry on drinking your tea. Whether you have to mash the button once or three times or five times makes no odds, just just blindly mash it, assuming that you've done your work properly. Hell, CTRA has a decurser which works through Button Mashing Technology(tm) too.

Put it this way, he's an honest player (and indeed a generous/helpful one) what he did was in good faith. A mendacious argument could be constructed to imply that he's in a grey area- but even if you take this as a given (which I am prepared to do, for the case of argument), then it warrants at most a warning, probably not even a three hour suspension. Certainly not a ban and ignorebot.

pipda

03-03-2006, 07:04 PM

If he is playing on a Linux system he deserves any abuse he gets!

/runs and hides from flames leaping at his feat

5zigen

03-03-2006, 07:41 PM

there may be an issue with warden and cheat prevention and running wow in a windows emulator.

Valas Azuviir

03-03-2006, 07:55 PM

a) Doesn't PrismaticEcho have the e-mail addy have that chap who's the head of PR over at Blizzard?? Try and give him a holler and see how he responds.

b) If, that doesn't help, create a stink with the media. Blizzard discriminating against Linux users. Might not be pretty, but if it'll get him re-instated.. :devil:

Xaero

03-03-2006, 08:34 PM

b) If, that doesn't help, create a stink with the media. Blizzard discriminating against Linux users. Might not be pretty, but if it'll get him re-instated.. :devil:

It worked for the GLBT people. :evil:

I have a Nostromo N52. I guess I'll be a bit more careful with the use of its features.

Sparrisen

03-03-2006, 10:00 PM

Trepidation

03-03-2006, 10:54 PM

I could do the same thing he did by just hitting 1,2,3 repeatedly on the keybaord with the macro system blizzard provides and be doing th same thing. I could actually do it better by using /script commands. No different than just mashing one key while watching a movie...i just stroke three instead of one with my middle three fingers and watch the same movie. Same level of "no brains required". Blizzard is again heading down a path they shouldn't head down.

-tReP

mesonm

03-03-2006, 11:38 PM

Interesting. I have a macro, written in lua, which does something very similar. It allows me to change weapons, pop a shield and renew myself. I can operate it with one finger, while chatting on the phone, filing my nails, eating cake, whatever.

If a person is operating game mechanics without watching...Blizz is saying that is unattended operation of the game...

I say we live with their definition...

Whatever our opinion is of their judgment, wastching TV while mashing a button seems a bit insane...If you are that bored with the game, watch the movie without it...which is I guess what blizz is giving you the opportunity to do...

Nobody knows if you would have been banned if you had been watching the game...My guess is no, since it seems that you failed to respond to a GM, in game...So, my suggestion is...watch the game when you are playing it.

I sympathize...even tho it may apear that I do not...

good luck!

rutty

06-03-2006, 09:23 PM

If he is playing on a Linux system he deserves any abuse he gets!

/runs and hides from flames leaping at his feat

/target pipda
/slap

:)

Might just add that to a macro, set it to a hotkey and run it on my Ubuntu/Cedega installation ;)

Not sure if warden will run in WINE or Cedega to be honest, but you'd think that if it ran the game it would run Warden. I've been playing since the game started under Linux and I've never had a whisper from a GM wondering why their Warden program isn't running.

I also don't have a fancy keyboard.

I feel for this guy but I do think he's been a bit silly to be watching a film while using Macros to upskill his character. To a GM this may well have appeared to have been a botter but there should be room for redress - it's not right that they don't give him the right to appeal

jibbrish

06-03-2006, 11:54 PM

I do feel sorry for him but he was botting. Using any third party software to enter keystrokes is against the rules. No doubt, it sounds like what he was doing was benign but comparisons with in-game macros and lua script prove the point, they aren't arguements in his defense. Macro and all the UI Mods using lua use in game mechanics and are allowed. Linking a macro to a key is also allowed, you're still using in-game mechanics to generate an action. He was using third party programs to play recorded key strokes - botting.

As a fellow gamer, it sucks that he has to lose his characters due to this. As a WoW player, it's a good thing to keep afk bots out of the game - swg cantina's anyone?

cyradis2003

07-03-2006, 12:39 AM

To see him programming those makros to his keyboard, I almost wish I had that same keyboard and some slight programming skills. It's true, it does give him an advantage, which is unfair to everyone playing WoW without this equipment and skills. He'll get better than all these other 60's out there, not being able to care about getting their skills to 60 due to manual labour, while he is watching a movie.

I do belive it's a harsh action banning him however. There's not a chance I'd go through those 3000 hours again, especially with the possibility that Blizz might just ban me again on a whim, and then the only your only chance to get there again is to play on a illegal server; not very recomended.

*sigh*

Go for it! Make a ruckus! :laugh:

Does my having a gig of ram not also give me an advantage over people with 256mb? Just because he bought a better keyboard than I did doesn't mean he should be punished ... now if he also has a 21inch widescreen monitor I might wish him just a little punishment ... but that is me, not Blizzard.

I actually was whispered some very strange things by a wack job following me around while I killed turtles in the hinterlands. I pretty much ignored him until I got the 10'th or so whisper that just said "reported" When I asked if he was reporting me for him being an annoying doofus he said that he was reporting me for botting. Aparently if people follow you around you now should pander to them or they report you for botting. I was contacted pretty quickly by a GM just saying "hello" so I said Hiya back and explained that I figured the guy following me was just mentally defective based on the stuff he was whispering to me and that I didn't feel like answering him. Makes me wonder if this guy didn't miss a GM whisper or 2 while he was watching tv.

craigbeere

07-03-2006, 01:38 AM

I'm quite worried about this idea of missing a GM whisper. Do they arrive in the normal chat window just like other whispers? What happens if I have the combat window open at the time? The combat window and chat window are, after all, in the same place by default.

I'm also very worried by the fact that I have never, ever read a story of a BLizzard GM or representative saying "Oops, I was wrong, let's undo the action." Reading transcripts of Blizzard reps' communicatinos reminds me of a drumhead trial.

Cheers
Craig

P.S. Given that Blizzard GM's seem to do all their interaction with us via canned messages, mabe they should be the ones accused of botting?

cyradis2003

07-03-2006, 03:48 AM

I'm quite worried about this idea of missing a GM whisper. Do they arrive in the normal chat window just like other whispers? What happens if I have the combat window open at the time? The combat window and chat window are, after all, in the same place by default.

They come in your regular chat window and look like whispers except they have something like {Game Master} after the name. They might originally be a different color than the whispers but I have messed with my chat colors so often that I couldn't tell ya :D It was teal blue for me though ... same as any other.

I have my combat log dragged to the side and shrunken a bit so I can see it if I need to but it doesn't take the place of my chat logs. This has actually helped me out many times in that I can see if I am being attacked by players while I am on a mob.

Jojin

07-03-2006, 09:08 AM

There was a discusion about this keyboard on the official WoW europe forums and it got a blue response (http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general-en&t=710797&tmp=1#post710797).

We have looked into this matter and haven’t found reasonable cause to disallow usage of its functions for use in world of Warcraft.

We do, however, reserve the right to come back to this statement at a later point, at which we will inform our players.

Herald of Doom

07-03-2006, 12:16 PM

I was under the impression that using multiple actions in one macro was against the rules? As in,it's ok to swap weapons+a spell but its not ok to swap weapons+spell+spell. Anyone have an idea where this is written in the rules? I have a n52 too and always refrained from using its macro abilities (unlike in BF2,hurray macros ^_^) because I thought it was against the rules.

What I think happened here is the following:

-priest is wacking a low level mob, always repeating the same actions (aka, the banned guy mashing his button with the macro)
-someone reported him
-GM whispered him and didnt get a response (as he was watching tv)
-banned

Now, this might or not be true, but I have been whispered by GM's before who just said "Hi" or "Hello" while I was grinding, which I assume was to make sure there was an actual player playing.

PS: I know nothing about the keyboard or the LINUX OP so I won't comment on that ;)

HoD

moopy

07-03-2006, 12:41 PM

Nobody knows if you would have been banned if you had been watching the game...My guess is no, since it seems that you failed to respond to a GM, in game...So, my suggestion is...watch the game when you are playing it.

I sympathize...even tho it may apear that I do not...

good luck!

It wasn't me that was banned, I hasten to add.. The guy was present at the keyboard, though like me, tends to play with the combat log up when levelling weapon skills/farming drops, I think. I frequently hide all but the combat log if I am tweaking for dmg, actually, partly because as a heal specced PRIST, I rarely get a chance to wallow in my own dps, partly because people whisper priests for PUGs if they quietly go and farm larval acid in PL, and I get fed up with seeing that.

I suspect that if a GM actually appeared (and I have never seen one, waaah, nerf), he would have noticed.

I think it boils down to missing a whisper, and the lazy bot mode GMs who don't like to go back on arbitrary and stupid decisions. Too bad Infernix isn't a member of any useful minority groups other than ubergeeks..

Ok, and Pipida.. j00 r 3vil! The penguins are gonna getcha..

mesonm

08-03-2006, 07:42 AM

Heh....I know it wasn't you that was banned...I was merely making comment...

I suspect that if a GM actually appeared (and I have never seen one, waaah, nerf), he would have noticed.

I have seen one, and it was OBVIOUS.

This guy wasn't paying attention to the game...not even remotely...

Mr_McGee

08-03-2006, 12:20 PM

What worries me is the severity of the punishment. I can see why Blizz would consider what he did to be "botting" and I understand why they would want to stop him from doing it however as this thread has shown most players in WoW have NO IDEA what the specific rules are regarding keyboard macros. It seems to be way to harsh to ban a person from the game when they did not know that they were breaking the rules. A simple warning or even a suspension would have made sure that this guy never did it again.

When people ghost mouse in AV to avoid going AFK they get warned not banned I fail to see how this is any different.

moopy

08-03-2006, 12:46 PM

Yes, that's probably the nub of the matter.. where someone has accidentally strayed into a grey area, they need a friendly warning, not an OMFGWTFBanz0r with immediate effect, and refusal of all discussion. That's not really terribly satisfactory customer service.

Like I have said before, I am more than capable of missing a message from a GM. I have never ever ever seen a GM in game, even when we were having trouble with screwed-up loot in BWL, they tend to just use a bunch of bot scripts to send you whispers. I have missed the odd message from them before, but it has always been when they have been bot autoresponding to a ticket, so I should count myself lucky that they don't pay attention to their own screens I guess. Otherwise maybe I could have been banned too, for not standing to attention quickly enough :)

Tarnop

08-03-2006, 12:53 PM

I have seen one, and it was OBVIOUS.

This guy wasn't paying attention to the game...not even remotely...

If you are whispered by a GM it's only obvious if you have the chat window on top. WoW's default screen setup has the combat log and chat window sharing the same pane, and I will often grind with the combat log on top. If you do this, the only other way to know if you've been whispered is from the sound effect. When grinding I will also typically have the sound down and my stereo on. So basically, what you're saying is someone can and should be banned for playing the game with the combat log on top and the sound off. What if the player is deaf and can't hear the aucible whisper prompt? I bet if this had been the case, Blizzard would be scrambling over themselves to backtrack because of the possibility of a discrimination suit.

I'm sure there must be an addon that can detect GM whispers and flash up a warning. Given that my natural playstyle is grinding, I may have to either find one or write one.

moopy

08-03-2006, 01:02 PM

I'm sure there must be an addon that can detect GM whispers and flash up a warning. Given that my natural playstyle is grinding, I may have to either find one or write one.

..until they ban you for using it, since you're clearly "botting" :)

mesonm

08-03-2006, 03:27 PM

Eido

08-03-2006, 03:37 PM

I recall some time ago, there was a post regarding another player who was banned, or somesuch, and after a lot of obstruction he finally got through to the head of Blizz customer service. Try doing a forum search for this. You can then contact the poster and get the Blizz bosses details.

Take it to the top

Atredies

08-03-2006, 05:47 PM

..until they ban you for using it, since you're clearly "botting" :)

Sorry Moopy can't accept anything you are saying as well all know women on the internet don't exist :tongue:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/17/27

Metatron

08-03-2006, 08:27 PM

Sorry Moopy can't accept anything you are saying as well all know women on the internet don't exist :tongue:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/17/27

Interesting article. Girls do exist on the internet! My girl got me interested in wow. She won the local Counter Strike tournament 2 years ago and has some odd shaped trophy to prove it. She is such a "computer nerd". And she's a honey too! If I bothered to search better I would linkie some pictures so would all believe me. But I'm lazy and you have to take my word for it that my girl is Lvl 60 Undead Shadow Priest on Shattered Hand, a Counter Strike tournament winning honey that loves to play games on the internet.

What the hell! Here she is! My ugly mug is already floating around on this site so I wont disturb you all again that with that image....

http://g.helgon.net/g/%7B502/%7B502E83A1-AEC1-4F29-96E2-C3A794BC6867%7D.jpg

Keaj

08-03-2006, 11:14 PM

Interesting article. Hijacking thread notice:

I guess being 30 and happily married, I don't really care what sex they are,
just whether they can play their character.
Hopefully all of the "girls" can break the barrier that they have to deal with now so that when my 6 year old is killing people in WOW 3 in 10 years they will give her respect.

Herald of Doom

08-03-2006, 11:19 PM

Interesting article. Girls do exist on the internet! My girl got me interested in wow. She won the local Counter Strike tournament 2 years ago and has some odd shaped trophy to prove it. She is such a "computer nerd". And she's a honey too! If I bothered to search better I would linkie some pictures so would all believe me. But I'm lazy and you have to take my word for it that my girl is Lvl 60 Undead Shadow Priest on Shattered Hand, a Counter Strike tournament winning honey that loves to play games on the internet.

What the hell! Here she is! My ugly mug is already floating around on this site so I wont disturb you all again that with that image....

http://g.helgon.net/g/%7B502/%7B502E83A1-AEC1-4F29-96E2-C3A794BC6867%7D.jpg
I bet that's not you but your sister !!

Oh wait :ponder: ..

HoD

klago

08-03-2006, 11:42 PM

http://padlarv.nl/wp-content/quake.jpg

So will this (http://www.artlebedev.com/portfolio/optimus/) get me banned from WOW?

Mr_McGee

08-03-2006, 11:51 PM

sorry to be a broken record...

I don't think it was keyboard macros that did it...It was not paying attention to the game while using them.

If folks 'ghost mouse' in AV and a GM catches them (e.g. reported) my guess is that the GM would ban them also...

Although his not paying attention to the game may have contributed to his banning we dont have any proof that a GM actually tried to contact him in game and even if he was contacted I still think a ban if far to harsh a punishment for a first time offense. And for your information there are several people on my server that are known to ghost mouse and have been reported by me and other and NONE of them have been banned. They have received warning and suspensions but no bans.

mesonm

09-03-2006, 12:38 AM

Although his not paying attention to the game may have contributed to his banning we dont have any proof that a GM actually tried to contact him in game

you are certainly right about that...

But we have his own admission that he was operating the game while not paying attention to it...

Funny that his admitted behavior is remarkably similar from what you expect from a bot....

And, whether to ban someone isn't voted on by the public...So, it isn't in our set of responsibilities to evaluate whether a GM contacted him.

My point is that it isn't likely the use of a particular keyboard that got him banned...It was his behavior...

I have no clue why this guy was banned (there may be more to the story that we don't know) and why folks in AV do not...

For all we know, the guy that was banned really did use a bot, and isn't telling...

Krollin

09-03-2006, 11:43 AM

I think the fact that the keyboard driver was emulating key presses rather than reacting to hotkeys in the game is one thing that would have made Blizzard very suspicious.
After all, this is one way of making a bot, make it look like you are typing/mashing keys to the client.
This may also explain why Blizzard are saying that using this keyboard in that way could result in you getting banned.
Other devices like the Nostromo can be programmed to be hooked to hotkeys which then cause commands to be issued, this is the same as when you have things like a 3rd mouse button to start autorun off.
Because you are mapping a device button to a hotkey and the actual macro (or whatever) is run off that hotkey nothing dodgy is being done to get the client to do what you want, ie you still have to press the right buttons.

Having said that Blizzard could at least respond to the problem instead of stonewalling.
I believe the player concerned when he says he has not knowingly used anything that would break the TOS or EULA.

Perhaps the best course of action for him now is to contact the manufacturer of the Keyboard and enlist their help.

Basically, he used their product which they claimed was perfectly ok to use with WoW and which resulted in him getting a ban. They have a responsibility to actually justify and prove that claim or they could be liable for damages so it would be in their interests to help this guy out.

Eido

09-03-2006, 11:51 AM

Mes you make a fair point, though I have seem Moopy post on these forums and have come to respect his opinions. If this guy is trusted by Moopy then that has some weight with me as to the truth of his story.

I doubt this guy is alone in having not been 100% focussed on WoW. I too will admit to being in the tram station swatting rats to get my melee skills up and watching TV (on another monitor). Does this mean that I too am ban-fodder?

In truth this particular set of circumstances falls right on the line of acceptability as regards the TOC and EULA. For that reason I feel that a ban was overkill.

The facts as told to us are:
the toon was level 60 - therefore he was not xp-botting
the mob being attacked was low level and self-healing - so doubtful as to gold or drop-farming.

I really can see any justification in a ban becasue nothing was being farmed.

pson

09-03-2006, 12:20 PM

Uh, so that's where Infernix has gone :(

And I have a Logictec G15 keyboard on backorder though I wasn't really planing on using it for more complicated things than having another set of keys to assign actions to ... every warlock knows there there ain't enough keys/buttons to on a normal keyboard to support our class :)

moopy

09-03-2006, 12:35 PM

My point is that it isn't likely the use of a particular keyboard that got him banned...It was his behavior...

I have no clue why this guy was banned (there may be more to the story that we don't know) and why folks in AV do not...

For all we know, the guy that was banned really did use a bot, and isn't telling...

Nope, he didn't. He's an ex-member of my raiding outfit, and a very candid sort of person; if he was up to something devious, he'd be sure to tell others, if only for the ubergeek bragging rights :)

It's a shame, one of the most hilariously overpowered mages that I ever did try and heal, too..

stefanw

10-03-2006, 09:50 AM

Since Logitech says in its commercial that it can be used (advanced) with WoW, you can file them an complaint, and see what they say to this.. ?

moopy

10-03-2006, 03:57 PM

Not a bad idea, stefan, I did try the usual "contact us" routes, to see if they had anything to say, but so far, no reply.

Thanks for the suggestion though; it's a good one.

cyradis2003

11-03-2006, 04:05 AM

Since Logitech says in its commercial that it can be used (advanced) with WoW, you can file them an complaint, and see what they say to this.. ?

You may also want to send letters to PC Gamer and other game mags/forums about this problem so others don't get caught in the same trap. Be sure to mention that Logitech advertises the keyboards as WOW friendly .. I am thinking they had to get WOW permisions for that. There may be some legal stuff Logitech needs to take care of to keep their customers from being wrongly banned.

NeoOrc

11-03-2006, 11:33 AM

Yea I don't know about being banned for just a keyboard but if he was playing by the rules without using any unauthorized programs and just a keyboard which I am planning on getting myself he should threaten the service department with a lawyer and that you are going to sue for lost time he put into his character...that might get them to talk...no one likes the word law suit or lawyer

kcma

11-03-2006, 11:50 AM

Not a bad idea, stefan, I did try the usual "contact us" routes, to see if they had anything to say, but so far, no reply.

Thanks for the suggestion though; it's a good one.

ever thought that being able to lvl up weapon skill unattended is an unfair advantage? =p

and then he can also lvl up first aid... fishing... and whatever else he wants while watching tv =P

cyradis2003

11-03-2006, 06:20 PM

ever thought that being able to lvl up weapon skill unattended is an unfair advantage? =p

and then he can also lvl up first aid... fishing... and whatever else he wants while watching tv =P

I level up first aid and tailoring unattended all the time. Get an inventory full of cloth and hit create all.

I also level weapon skills while in the kitchen or running around the house too. Find a buggy critter and go to town whapping on him.

Lots of people do that actually.

The thing is he wasn't watching the screen but he was there. He physically pushed the macro button every time he switched weapons and healed. Maybe he missed a few whispers, maybe he didn't but he was actually there and he did actually hit the buttons manually ... unless he pulled a Homer and had one of those metronome birds doing it. So if you expand on this you have a keyboard which is advertised as being great for WOW but if you use it for a repetative task the GM's can't distinguish your macros from a botting program. If you have never watched a movie while farming for low level mats or grinding a bit of rep or whatever then you are probably in a minority.

Fishing would take a program and would be illegal. You can have a macro to cast your line but you need to wait for a bite before you reel in, no macro alone can do that and a program that could do it would absolutely be illegal.

kcma

11-03-2006, 11:52 PM

i'm constnatly talking =p so i can amuse myself doing lowbie stuff without having to leave my comp =)

Seagull

13-03-2006, 12:27 PM

considering Blizz advertise Zboards in there online store I very much doubt you will be banned for using one
As for suspect botting unfortunately some innocents will go dpwn with the guilty, blizz have always been heavy handed and there is no right of appeal

MithrandirX

13-03-2006, 03:50 PM

I don't have much sympathy for the original poster. Using hardware macros (whether or not he says so, I'm SURE that's what he did) is just plain cheating. I have that keyboard, as well as a Nostromo n52 gamepad. If I wanted to, I could program and entire 100 to 0 stunlock onto a single key, or a 10-move aggro-building set for my warrior, or auto-healing for my priest. The fact that the OP did something less malicious than these examples does not make it OK for him to cheat.

It's not Logitech's fault. It's HIS.

EDIT: Oh yeah, one more thing: the g15 DOES use its own software. I dont know about Linux, but it definitely does on windows.

DrunkCajun

13-03-2006, 04:05 PM

And here I figured you were lazy enough to have already programmed your rogue with hardware macros.

MithrandirX

13-03-2006, 04:13 PM

And here I figured you were lazy enough to have already programmed your rogue with hardware macros.

Pfft.. the thing is that the rogue is so easy to play that it's just not really worth using the macros. I don't PvP with him at all anymore, and the PvE applications for slick cheating HW macros are just not all that attractive, not to mention, against the rules... I'd hate to get banned just when we are getting to some interesting content.

Kodonn

13-03-2006, 08:00 PM

I also level weapon skills while in the kitchen or running around the house too. Find a buggy critter and go to town whapping on him.

Lots of people do that actually.

"Lots of people do that" is not really a valid line of reasoning. And I believe the "buggy critter whapping" is covered under "exploits", I would be careful about doing that as well, just in case Blizzard wants to take a hardline approach.

craigbeere

14-03-2006, 03:42 AM

I level up first aid and tailoring unattended all the time. Get an inventory full of cloth and hit create all.
Those are a little different in that the game provides a "create all" mechanism. No macroing is required to create bandages.

Macroing of some kind would be required to level fishing or skinning.

mesonm

14-03-2006, 05:03 PM

Basically, he used their product which they claimed was perfectly ok to use with WoW and which resulted in him getting a ban. They have a responsibility to actually justify and prove that claim or they could be liable for damages so it would be in their interests to help this guy out.

I still disagree. If he was operating the game unattended (e.g. not watching the game while he fooled with macros or other keys) that unattended operation probably was a major factor in a GM even showing up...And, if he wasn't attending, he could have missed a GM inquiry which was (possibly...) sent merely to see if he was at the keyboard and playing the game.

Those inquiries, as I know from personal experience are EASY to spot...I was rather shocked when I saw one...The GM was asking me about a trouble ticket I put in...the ticket was high priority, and rose quickly in their queue...WHAM...There he was...

It still isn't clear to me if the OP missed a GM in-game inquiry, unless I missed that part of this thread...

If he wasn't watching, and if it appeared he was botting, and missed the message from a GM, BOOM.....

Hypothetical GM note in log: "Send XXX two notes in-game, no response for five minutes while game operation continued, and while his toon continued to kill mobs"

It was a combination of things...and not the fact (alone...) that he was playing with a particular keyboard. Unattended is a key word here...

Krollin

14-03-2006, 05:18 PM

I still disagree. If he was operating the game unattended (e.g. not watching the game while he fooled with macros or other keys) that unattended operation probably was a major factor in a GM even showing up...And, if he wasn't attending, he could have missed a GM inquiry which was (possibly...) sent merely to see if he was at the keyboard and playing the game.

Those inquiries, as I know from personal experience are EASY to spot...I was rather shocked when I saw one...The GM was asking me about a trouble ticket I put in...the ticket was high priority, and rose quickly in their queue...WHAM...There he was...

It still isn't clear to me if the OP missed a GM in-game inquiry, unless I missed that part of this thread...

If he wasn't watching, and if it appeared he was botting, and missed the message from a GM, BOOM.....

Hypothetical GM note in log: "Send XXX two notes in-game, no response for five minutes while game operation continued, and while his toon continued to kill mobs"

It was a combination of things...and not the fact (alone...) that he was playing with a particular keyboard. Unattended is a key word here...
Yes, the unattended thing is an important part of this I agree.

It will never be certain if the guy missed a GM query or not, if there were none then he would have had nothing to see and if he missed them then he will never know.

What is certain is that the way in which the keyboard was passing keystrokes to the client would have alerted the WoW client security Guardian that something dodgy may be going on. It is this point that may be his only chance of getting his account back at all.

That he was inattentive while doing this was just plain naive but if he is telling the truth then I don't think he was deliberately using hacks to gain an advantage which is what Blizzard have said he was doing. This is confirmed by Blizzard banning the use of this keyboard for that very reason.

DotComm

14-03-2006, 06:02 PM

This is confirmed by Blizzard banning the use of this keyboard for that very reason.

Am I reading this out of context, or has Blizzard "banned" the G15? If so, where? Link please. And how the hell do they intend to inforce this? Please explain Krollin :)

SB

mesonm

14-03-2006, 06:02 PM

What is certain is that the way in which the keyboard was passing keystrokes to the client would have alerted the WoW client security Guardian that something dodgy may be going on.

I'm just the troublemaker today...and disagree that the keyboard caused the GM to show up...

I know of several people who are using this keyboard, every day, including macros, and they have never seen a GM, and aren't banned.

This isn't conclusive either, but is a data point. I do not believe that it 'is certain' that the keyboard software 'alerted the WoW client security Guardian". Certainly possible, but not certain.

I'll stay out of the thread for awhile...heh...My point of view in this is well established.

:sunny:

south

15-03-2006, 06:55 AM

Just skipped over some of the 8 pages.
If I was killing a low level mob to increase weapon skill...I could easily miss a couple of warnings depending on zone, crossroads being a example. That is easily done even whith no macros lol.
He seems willing to go review the case, why not give him a chance?
If it was the keyboard. That's ambiguous, the least they can do is clear up what is allowable.
Me 2 cents.

chelate

15-03-2006, 08:42 AM

Holy crap, read their response (3rd letter back). Seems a HELL of a lot like entrapment!

/edit: and it's riducleous that they would not show him how they "proved" it. From what I'm told a GM checks if you're actually there by messaging you and asking you a simple question (like your character's name, your level, crap like that). On a normal day I miss whispers admit guild chat. If I was doing something repetitive I would daze out a bit more. If I were watching TV at the same time, leveling my weapon skill on a 25 mob would probably get me killed, I would phase out so much. Blizzard is full of ****.

phammerz

15-03-2006, 10:27 AM

yah this is just a stupid case, why should i have to have undivided attention while playing a game that im paying for? I know for a fact on multiple occassions I'll be watching tv while randomly doing stuff and not paying attnetion to chat or what not. All in all, Blizzard needs to change their policies, because their policies as of now seem too black and white and dont factor in enough variables.

aefa

15-03-2006, 11:00 AM

"Lots of people do that" is not really a valid line of reasoning. And I believe the "buggy critter whapping" is covered under "exploits", I would be careful about doing that as well, just in case Blizzard wants to take a hardline approach.

Could you be so kind to tell me where you find that.
I've read Blizzards policies through, quite a few times and I must say, in relation to this case, they seem lacking.

You can find Blizzard's policies here, please quote and link the part you believe covers this.
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/policy/

Also while you're there take a look at the account penalties policy ( http://www.wow-europe.com/en/policy/accountpenalties.html ) and tell me if this is the violation you'd define as:
*Excessive and grossly violation of the policies (which ones?)
*Account closures are rare and thus represents a player who is unable to abide by our rules and insists on negatively affecting other players' enjoyment of the game or harming the service itself.

They've definetly not given the courtesy of referring to the policy in question, and some of us are still left here, after 3 official replies, wondering what exactly what got him banned.
And to be honest that's the frustrating part.

Edit: Missed a "they" in the second sentence.

madonita

15-03-2006, 11:41 AM

Blizzard have been acting like they don't care about what customer may have to say for quite some time now.

the guy should get counselling from a consumer protection association or whatever its called in english. Here in France those guys can do wonders in those kind of situation by supporting the clients with all the appropriate legal stuff.

for us it's just entertainment, but remember it's also a business and it should abide the law.

Flymo

15-03-2006, 11:45 AM

/edit: and it's riducleous that they would not show him how they "proved" it. From what I'm told a GM checks if you're actually there by messaging you and asking you a simple question (like your character's name, your level, crap like that). On a normal day I miss whispers admit guild chat. If I was doing something repetitive I would daze out a bit more. If I were watching TV at the same time, leveling my weapon skill on a 25 mob would probably get me killed, I would phase out so much. Blizzard is full of ****.
There's no evidence at all that a GM was involved. From what I know of them they're far too busy to say "hello" to random players to see if they answer.

Blizzard ban thousands of accounts at a time, and use Warden to find out who is using bot software. But how do they identify new bot software in the first place? It seems very likely that they analyse play on their servers to detect bot-like behaviour. What would they look for? It would have to be repetitive behaviour that couldn't be achieved with macros or add-ons. Casting two spells with exactly the same interval between them over and over, as Infernix did, comes into this category. My guess is that's how he got caught, and he then sealed his fate by saying he was watching TV while levelling weapon skills which they took to be an admission of unattended play.

madonita

15-03-2006, 12:01 PM

It would have to be repetitive behaviour that couldn't be achieved with macros or add-ons. Casting two spells with exactly the same interval between them over and over, as Infernix did, comes into this category. My guess is that's how he got caught, and he then sealed his fate by saying he was watching TV while levelling weapon skills which they took to be an admission of unattended play.

yet he was not botting, was he?

they can be wrong from time to time, no matter how good they are. They should come back on their decision.

aefa

15-03-2006, 12:38 PM

Could you be so kind to tell me where you find that.
I've read Blizzards policies through, quite a few times and I must say, in relation to this case, they seem lacking.

You can find Blizzard's policies here, please quote and link the part you believe covers this.
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/policy/

Also while you're there take a look at the account penalties policy ( http://www.wow-europe.com/en/policy/accountpenalties.html ) and tell me if this is the violation you'd define as:
*Excessive and grossly violation of the policies (which ones?)
*Account closures are rare and thus represents a player who is unable to abide by our rules and insists on negatively affecting other players' enjoyment of the game or harming the service itself.

They've definetly not given the courtesy of referring to the policy in question, and some of us are still left here, after 3 official replies, wondering what exactly what got him banned.
And to be honest that's the frustrating part.

Edit: Missed a "they" in the second sentence.

Please disregard my reference to the buggy whapping, which I misunderstood. That part is actually covered in the policy, even though people seem to do it alot - however it's quite a minor offence isn't it?
Raising your weapon skills?

What I was trying to comment on - obvoiusly failed, i can see when revisiting my post - was that where you'd be able to find a reference to that you have to pay attention to the game.
There's a part in there about using 3rd party programs (obviously to avoid abuse/exploitation of the service and to prevent people from botting), however there's no part in there saying you can't mindlessly grind, and the G15 software is a grey area.

The basic problem is probably what measures Blizzard have to determine the use of 3rd party software and botting.
At the end of the day, there's probably quite a few who's caught by the Warden, however most of the people are probably beeing booted over beeing observed in what seems repetitive behaviour and are probably contacted by a GM.

I'm fairly sure the "Observed and witnessed" covers a report of repetitive behavior by someone in game. GM pops in, have a look and when the "offender" fails to reply with a given time, they're booted.

Problem is that without a policy from Blizzards side stating that you're obliged to answer tells from GMs and lack thereof is enough to count as conclusive evidence of botting, a lot of unsuspecting people who pay less attention to the game, while performing repetitive tasks are in the risk of getting permanently banned, without proper explanation and (practically) no way of appealing. :embarassed:

That's macro keyboard aside.
This seems to hold true whether you're pushing several hotbar keys, using in-game macros or using a keyboard that Blizzard (no confirmation, aside from a blue post that's vague and leaves the area grey) may or may not condone the use of.

Athame

15-03-2006, 01:01 PM

I've done some extensive botting in Everquest. Never tried it in WoW, I assume it is not much different.

GM's that look for bots don't just try to communicate, they'll also try to mess with the bot. The GM will for example make your opponent go *poof* and then see how you respond to that. Or summon you to a mountaintop. You can make a bot respond randomly to tells like 'sorry no english' or have it log off if you receive a tell from someone not on the /who list, but it's really hard to have it respond humanly to simple changes the GM makes to your surroundings. In any case, it's not the botting but the unattended botting that will get you banned. Safest is to have an alarm sound for anything unexpected and stay in the same room while you're botting.

Well, safest is actually not to bot at all! :laugh:

keylight

15-03-2006, 03:50 PM

moopy

15-03-2006, 04:04 PM

yet he was not botting, was he?

they can be wrong from time to time, no matter how good they are. They should come back on their decision.

Indeed, no-one expects them to be perfect, that'd just be creepy. However, having a working appeals procedure, so that you can't be shafted by a lone rogue GM might be a flying start :)

Edit: Typo in the word "perfect", oh the irony.

SSH83

15-03-2006, 08:52 PM

I had a bad experience with their Customer Service with D2, where they gave me a "sorry but too bad" email after one of my character got rolled back by a couple of months, so sadly, I can relate. :(

Maybe he can try complaining to the keyboard manufacturer instead. Something like... "I used your keyboard for WoW as advertised and got banned for it!" Hehehe...

Redmumba

15-03-2006, 10:11 PM

Guys, you have to also remember... this IS botting, in its most basic form. Just because he wasn't guilty doesn't mean what he was doing was against the rules, and considering Blizzard probably has a simple rule concerning automation, its not surprising that he got banned. Really, he was botting, but "not really." I am by no means an experienced player--I've logged about 500 hours, which isn't much considering none of my two characters are at 60 yet. But if somebody is sitting there for hours on end doing the same thing over and over again, I'd flag that as a bot, wouldn't you?

In this case, its just like the rose; it doesn't matter if its viewed differently, or if its used differently, its still a rose, right?

EDIT: Plus, isn't it really his fault for not paying attention enough to answer the GM's whispers, which he almost certainly missed? I mean, I'll watch TV or chat (like I am now) while playing all the time, but I'm never busy enough to miss a whisper... so why did he?

jibbrish

15-03-2006, 10:18 PM

yet he was not botting, was he?

they can be wrong from time to time, no matter how good they are. They should come back on their decision.

Sure he was botting. He was using a 3rd party program to pass keystrokes to the game - that's botting. It's also called a macro but don't confuse that with the ingame macros, those are legal. Linking an ingame macro to a key on your keyboard or mouse is legal too. That wasn't what was done.

Make no mistake, this was botting, whether his intentions were benign or not.

Coanunn

15-03-2006, 10:35 PM

Ok, I hate to be the bad guy on this one, but I doubt it was WINE or the fact that the keybord was programmable, but more of how he was using the keyboard. According to th dictionary.com explanation of unattended:

un·at·tend·ed
adj.
--Not being attended to, looked after, or watched: an unattended fire.
--Having no attendants: unattended gasoline pumps.
--Not being paid attention to or listened to: an unattended question.

He openly admits that he was watching movies 99% of the time and not paying any attention to the game. Because you hit a key on a keyboard every 5-10 minutes does not mean that you are "attending" to the game.

On the other hand, I do agree that a perminent ban was a bit harsh and feel that a 24 hour ban would probably be the the most appropriate penalty in my opinion. My personal thought was that someone saw you killing low level mobs, they might have said something in which you didn't respond to them and they reported you.

Ahem.. /agree....

Blizzard has to protect the community in game from people who break the rather long and complet ToS and ToU, if this guy was playing the game one handed while not looking at the screen for several hours while watching a movie, that is botting. It isn't "get up and walk away" botting but it took no though on his part and a simple keystroke generator added to what he did create using his keyboads software (he can argue all day that it's a programmable keyboard but that means there is software that runs it that he was using) is a full fledged get up and leave the house bot. Sorry he lost the account but I don't see why he is crying foul.

aefa

15-03-2006, 11:33 PM

Ahem.. /agree....

Blizzard has to protect the community in game from people who break the rather long and complet ToS and ToU, if this guy was playing the game one handed while not looking at the screen for several hours while watching a movie, that is botting. It isn't "get up and walk away" botting but it took no though on his part and a simple keystroke generator added to what he did create using his keyboads software (he can argue all day that it's a programmable keyboard but that means there is software that runs it that he was using) is a full fledged get up and leave the house bot. Sorry he lost the account but I don't see why he is crying foul.

I'm curious where you find that not paying full attention to the game is considered against the ToS/ToU.

Please provide me with a link/quote, because I can't find it here:
www.wow-europe.com/en/policy

And sure the use of 3rd party programs (that for example can automate things for you, but not nessarily) are against the ToS/ToU, but on the other hand there's the blue post saying "We see no reason to disallow the use of it's functions" in relation to the G15 keyboard. It's a grey area at best.

mightismine

15-03-2006, 11:47 PM

well i say that if everyone is so scared of these dam keyboards just dont use them i have one, have used it and it never gives me anyproblems, but if all of this is true just dont use them

Coanunn

15-03-2006, 11:58 PM

I'm curious where you find that not paying full attention to the game is considered against the ToS/ToU.

Please provide me with a link/quote, because I can't find it here:
www.wow-europe.com/en/policy

And sure the use of 3rd party programs (that for example can automate things for you, but not nessarily) are against the ToS/ToU, but on the other hand there's the blue post saying "We see no reason to disallow the use of it's functions" in relation to the G15 keyboard. It's a grey area at best.

Well for starters it is not my job to read the ToU for you, but..

(v) Anything that Blizzard Entertainment considers contrary to the "essence" of World of Warcraft. from http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html is all the reason they EVER need to deny anyone service. It may not seem "Nice" or "Fair" but it is legal.

And of course..

11. Equitable Remedies. You hereby agree that Licensor would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this License Agreement were not specifically enforced, and therefore you agree that Licensor shall be entitled, without bond, other security, or proof of damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this License Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Licensor may otherwise have available to it under applicable laws. From http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/eula.html.

south

16-03-2006, 06:21 AM

I posted on this thread...
Logged on my lil horde warlock...
Got a 2 hour ban...
The irony...lol
Shucks...it sucks...lol
Here is how it happened.

Went to Ashenvale to get some shards.
Clicked on Mulgash got quest:Vorsha the Lasher
Realized after clicking, yes... ups..it's timed(yeah I was tired)
So get my voidwalker up, some healthstones...run after Muglash. So we can go MUG the LASHer.
We started by putting out vorlash's brazier to start the fight.Started ok.
Somewhere in the middle I hit the pet button that sacrifices Void instead healing him from the shadows.....
Muglash died....
Blizzard implemented some sort of fix for that case...I did not realize and hit abandon quest...old standard procedure for quirky quest's.
Accept quest again. Get back to brazier it is still out from previous time, of course quest fails again. At this moment I suppose Blizzard software took a long look at my antics and decided I was obviously up to no good.
Zap.....Banned 2 hours.
Lol banned for being plain old clumsy. hehehe.
Fun and games.

aefa

16-03-2006, 09:14 AM

Well for starters it is not my job to read the ToU for you, but..

I apologize if it seemed demanding, rather than a kind request, that wasn't my intention when I wrote it.
Thank you for providing those links, I'll have a look at them (again, as I've obviously accepted them to play :grin: ).

madonita

16-03-2006, 11:57 AM

It's also called a macro but don't confuse that with the ingame macros, those are legal. Linking an ingame macro to a key on your keyboard or mouse is legal too. That wasn't what was done.

Make no mistake, this was botting, whether his intentions were benign or not.

please excuse my noobness on this topic:

1) If what he did (creating a macro within his keyboard to simulate a sequence of keystrokes) is botting, how come the add-ons which allow you to code macros bigger than officially authorized by blizzard are authorized?

2) As far as looping is concerned: mana conserve utility on CTRA makes regular checks on the health status of the target you are healing, can't this be considered as botting?

sorry for those stupid questions, I'm just trying to figure out some consistency in Blizzard's policy, no matter how hopeless this may seem at first :ponder:

Coanunn

16-03-2006, 02:55 PM

please excuse my noobness on this topic:

1) If what he did (creating a macro within his keyboard to simulate a sequence of keystrokes) is botting, how come the add-ons which allow you to code macros bigger than officially authorized by blizzard are authorized?

2) As far as looping is concerned: mana conserve utility on CTRA makes regular checks on the health status of the target you are healing, can't this be considered as botting?

sorry for those stupid questions, I'm just trying to figure out some consistency in Blizzard's policy, no matter how hopeless this may seem at first :ponder:

1) Blizzard releases changes to the user definable interface with each patch to enable or disable things they find to be a violation of the ToU, than in and of it self makes any add-on fair game untill flagged as otherwise when it comes to add-ons that are part of the user interface. A keyboard and the programming that runs on that keyboard violate the 3rd party rules because they are not part of the userinterface but are part of your machine with extrenous software to operate them.

2) The reason this isn't botting is it only checks when you are casting spells, meaning you are actively controling the character. Now this applied atop the macro described by our friend here just makes his a more efficient bot.

Now for those of you who seem to be unsure what botting is, here is a simple explanation. Anything that plays part of the game for you is a bot. If you can click one key and your character changes weapons, attacks, heals and any number of other actions using the user interface of the game and the ingame macros that is FINE, but if you take a g15 or a Nostromo speedpad and you have a single key press do an OUTSIDE macro that hits multiple keys or sends commands you are coming dangerously close to botting, if you take that further and are able to play the game by pressing the button once in awhile while doing something else you have graduated to full on botting. Basically if playing the game doesn't require your attention then you are botting.

madonita

16-03-2006, 04:33 PM

thank you Coanunn.

CrazyGamer

17-03-2006, 11:16 AM

Coanunn

17-03-2006, 04:25 PM

The use of this keyboard is officially allowed by Blizzard.

http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general-en&t=705675&p=5
Post 96.

I am well aware that this keyboard is capable of bot-functions but this is legalized botting for the time being.

The issue is rather that Blizzard customer service is refusing to communicate about account suspensions. I have had a similar experience with a longtime officer in my guild. Proving his innocence is frankly rather easy but he has never been given anything but automated responses to his emails and he has still not been told why he was permanently banned.

I am not debating that the keyboard is not allowed, CrazyGamer. What I am stating is that using the G15 to facilitate botting is a violation of the ToU.

Saying but I was using an approved product to do an unapproved action doesn't make it less of a violation.

I can bot using my standard keyboard too, does that mean that any botting using my standard keyboard is an authorized and approved action? Fairly simple to write a program that generats key clicks in certain sequences and timings that will interact with my keyboards device drivers so that when I press the tilde key it plays the game for an hour for me.

If I shoot you with a licensed registered gun I've still broke the law against shooting people even if I did it with a legal gun, the same logic holds here that use of the G15 is legal, use of the G15 to bot is not. And if nothing else is true, Blizzard as a company can deny service to ANYONE for ANY REASON completely and totally within their rights. As well as the fact that as I pointed out they may take any action to remedy the situation that they deem fit within the legal guidlines of the law, meaning short of killing subscribers to end subscription they can pretty much do what they want. I don't support the fact that they banned your officer and won't communicate but then I don't have any information on what happend, but what I do have here is his open admittance to botting to show why his ban should stand.

jibbrish

17-03-2006, 06:48 PM

I agree Coanunn but it would be nice if blizzard came out with a less ambiguous statement - You can use whatever keyboard you want but the only macros allowed are those produced in game through the macro functionality or ui lua coding (approved mods). Seems obvious to some that a keyboard that passes keystrokes is botting, less obvious to others.

HobJoe

17-03-2006, 07:17 PM

And for your information there are several people on my server that are known to ghost mouse and have been reported by me and other and NONE of them have been banned.

Noob here...what is "Ghost Mouse"?

Mortshd

17-03-2006, 09:00 PM

Official post from Tyren (Blizz CM):

Recently, players expressed some concern over the use of programmable gaming peripherals while playing World of Warcraft. We want to make sure it's clear that creating hotkeys for certain actions in the game is ok. However, if these peripherals are used to automate gameplay to the point where the player is able to conduct repeated actions in the game without paying attention, then that will constitute a violation of our game policies. The use of sustained automated play grants an unfair advantage over players who earn their achievements by actively playing through the game as it was designed. In the interest of maintaining an even playing field for all players, we will investigate reports of automated play and take action as needed to prevent this from occurring in the game.

Valas Azuviir

17-03-2006, 09:58 PM

And if nothing else is true, Blizzard as a company can deny service to ANYONE for ANY REASON completely and totally within their rights.

Not completely true, as the recent GLBT-friendly debacle showed.

And I'm not fully convinced that this should be considered botting, considering he was there pushing the danged buttons, even if he didn't look at the monitor, but at the tv screen a couple of feet away.

Botting does mean that the players themselves are no longer playing the game, think of the buffbot/healers in EQ, person gets a second account, creates a healer, and has the bot essentially run the healer and have it heal the main character, whom the healer automatically follows.

I mean, it's a level 60 priest, fighting a level 25 Mob, you already know the rough damage parameters it can do. Every say 3 minutes a renew and every two minutes or so a hex of weakness. Stick both spells on regular macros (with the hex targeting the mob, and the renew targeting the priest him-/herself) and place macro's on the regular action bars and anyone can do the same with a regular keyboard. Just a matter of pressing say 2 and 3 at the right time. And just watching something else and counting in your head. It's perfectly doable. And you'd end up in the same type of trouble really.

As for the comment someone made about missing the GM whisper, if there was one, a) he had the sound turned down, b) if he didn't have his chatlog open but his combat log, then he would've have seen the whisper either.

It's not that unusual for players, considering the standard UI, to be staring at the combat log as opposed to the chat log, when in combat.

All things considered, I think that the judgement was unnecessarily harsh, too much grey area for an innocent player to get caught in. 72 hour suspension, followed up with a clarification on the boards and the in-game news to remain there till the next ToU update as to what is and what is not acceptable might've been better. It still scares the living frag out of folks, and makes them think twice about doing things, considering the next step is a permanent ban. Yet, it still allows for some leniency in cases like this.

I'd personally also like to see a clarification on the Linux issue with regards to Warden as well.. I may be a M$ slave, but that doesn't mean I want to see the penguin folks getting flogged over an issue like this either.

And as a side note, kinda funny what Tyren's ruling is.. Lot of high level pally players will know what I mean. Want to level up weaponskills?? Occasional HL, DS, BoP/BM and autoattack and have the grocery list lying on the next to the keyboard. :wink:

Coanunn

17-03-2006, 10:26 PM

Not completely true, as the recent GLBT-friendly debacle showed.

All that showed is that customers can not be treated differently based upon sexual orientation, not that they couldn't have had their service denied for any reason blizzard saw fit to do so. You as a consumer are not guaranteed service ANYWHERE and can be denied service for anything from a lack of shirt/shoes to he doesn't feel like serving you. People seem to have forgotten that a company doesn't have to serve them ever since the equal rights movements for race, gender, sexual orientation and all other non-discrimination groups. It isn't discrimination to refuse someone service at all, and no company is compelled to serve any particular consumer for any reason.

djiss

17-03-2006, 10:47 PM

Valas Azuviir

18-03-2006, 01:14 AM

All that showed is that customers can not be treated differently based upon sexual orientation, not that they couldn't have had their service denied for any reason blizzard saw fit to do so. You as a consumer are not guaranteed service ANYWHERE and can be denied service for anything from a lack of shirt/shoes to he doesn't feel like serving you. People seem to have forgotten that a company doesn't have to serve them ever since the equal rights movements for race, gender, sexual orientation and all other non-discrimination groups. It isn't discrimination to refuse someone service at all, and no company is compelled to serve any particular consumer for any reason.

I underlined the pertinent bits. You are incorrect about the companies having the right to deny customers service for any reason. Especially, when it deals with contracted services. The term any reason would include reasons which are discriminatory in nature and which, depending upon the state the event occurs in, can be unlawful in nature.

As is the case in CA, for example if a landlord finds out that a tenant is gay and wants to kick them out for that, and said tenant is obeying his/her contractually agreed upon stipulations, then said landlord really doesn't have a leg to stand on, until the contract for the lease/agreed upon timeframe for the rent/living situation has expired.

Additionally, the claim that it isn't discrimination to deny someone service is also on shaky grounds. If person A is served, whereas person B is not, even though both are paying customers and both are obeying the same agreed upon terms, then a discriminatory situation has been created, with the reason for the denial of service becoming paramount to see if said action was legal with regards to existing state laws.

xith

18-03-2006, 04:19 PM

Just in case anyone's interested, I have updated the page.

Regards,

infernix

craigbeere

19-03-2006, 03:02 PM

Official post from Tyren (Blizz CM):

…we will investigate reports of automated play and take action as needed to prevent this from occurring in the game.

My worry is that I am not confident Blizzard will "investigate" anything. It seems to me that their investigation consists of some bored staff member taking a 2 second look at a log. Then they act, usually harshly and in complete opposite to their penalty volcano (http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowgm/?id=agm01714p). Once done, their decision seems set in stone as they will never admit they might have been wrong.

It reminds me of a drunhead trial. Sentences - harsh. Appeals - none.

Or am I wrong?

Are their fair and impartial decisions made by Blizzard staff but that those decisions never make the forums? Do you have a story of something investigated by Blizzard that wasn't unfair to the customer? Have you had a situation where penaltuies have been reversed after Blizzard investigated your situation more fully?

Craig

CrazyGamer

19-03-2006, 09:54 PM

Infernix was not playing entirely automated; he was automating the game to an extent where had had to devote significantly less attention to the game. This is a distinction between complete botting and I believe this is a greyzone in the EULA.

The community made a great effort to make Blizzard aware of the great potential for automating functions with this keyboard and Blizzard's response was that all functions of this keyboard were legal. Including those which are not allowed in ordinary macros (particularly breaks, looping and button-input) because they give potential for too much automation.