Upcoming Dungeon Changes

[Rushster]

<h5>Friday 3 March 2006</h5>
<p><b>Upcoming Dungeon Changes</b> -- <small>Posted by
<a href="mailto:rush@worldofwar.net">Rushster</a>
at 19:45 PM [<a href="/cgi-bin/news/viewnews.cgi?id=EEuEuEVEpkxIRayhDw">Link News</a>]

</small>
<br><br><p>As blizzard gear up for the v1.10 test next week more info on what to expect is trickling through including <a href="http://www.worldofwar.net/shredder/index.php?seite=kobold&&pid=26641">info on dungeon changes</a> you can expect during the test in a lengthy update. Here's a snip:</p><blockquote dir="ltr" style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><p>A brand new quest series has been added for each class which will allow players the opportunity to upgrade their existing dungeon set. The current dungeon sets consist of rare items that range from level 52 to 58. Each new set however, once fully upgraded through completing each quest in the series will provide players with four high level rare (blue) items, and four epic (purple) items. The upgraded sets are textured differently so that they are fully distinguishable from the standard dungeon set.</p></blockquote>

[Grendo]

If I'm reading this right (as I cant get to the main page of this site, only forums) is that you must have the current dungeon set (Tier set gear) in order to get the 'new' set gear with the rare sets.

That doesnt sound at all like what was promised. You just have to invest twice the time now. Once to farm the same gear youve been trying for 6 months for, and once to upgrade said gear.

Hrm.

[tagkc]

Umm, have to hunt down the discarded pieces again?

No thanks.

[WatcherZero]

anyone think this is a massive hindrance to druids combined with priest improvements?

5 man group has priest wont want druid
undead instance runs will always take a priest over a druid

[OneMadOgre]

Depends on the spec of the Druid. Feral or tanks go well with Priests. Tank Druids may have a hard time with Warriors. Paladins or Shamans will be required when a Druid is the main heal to provide ress. It's a big change. Welcome one tho. Will make those end game content dungeons actually feel like end game. Say goodbye to Molten Core attunement raids as well. You're going to have to five man that content now.

[Mallstrop]

My main concern is that it's going to stop people taking level 55 players into the top instances. Before my Warlock could have done Scholo or Strat quite easily in a CR at 55, now they'll only take the level 60's.

[Mythricdurotan]

Anyone see Blizz post anything about their estimated time to complete these new instances? I'm wondering how long it's going to take to finish them considering they're mostly 5-man (BRD, Scholo, Strath) or 10 man (Blackrock Spire) only now and they're adding more bosses. Makes me wonder how long an individual run might take, although I do know they're re-working the instances almost entirely so maybe it won't take as long as it sounds at first glance.

[zkajan]

caps on amount of players in scholo/strat/brd/brs?!

YESS!!!!

finaly people will run these how it was intended.
then maybe there won't be as much complaining about hardness of ZG and such. ofcourse it's "hard", you can't zerg it with more than intended amount of people

[ocellaris]

caps on amount of players in scholo/strat/brd/brs?!

YESS!!!!


This would be a really bad thing IMO. I know a lot of casual players who play the game that like the fact that you can 10 man UD Strat, 15 man UBRS. First up, it allows them to get gear (at a slow pace) and secondly, it allows for all kinds of group makeups. If Blizzard starts limiting instances more, it makes it a lot harder for people to get groups, especially with heavily populated classes.

[FlareCDE]

Personally I'm glad for the addition of challenge. Overkilling instances is so boring. People complain about the lack of content because it's too easy.

[SirBazturd]

This is a terrible change. Currently, you can run it with 5 if that is the way you like to play. People with jobs/families/relationships/kids/hobbies, do not have 3-4 hours to blow on Scholo with the hope of getting a set piece dropped.

[zkajan]

scholo/strat have been nerfed at least 4 times (that i know of) since release. 5 manning either should take no longer than an hour to an hour and half if you have any sort of skill. with good gear, should take less than an hour. brd is supposed to be a 5 man lvl 55 dungeon.
sorry, you can't do something right maybe you don't deserve the reward

[SirBazturd]

scholo/strat have been nerfed at least 4 times (that i know of) since release. 5 manning either should take no longer than an hour to an hour and half if you have any sort of skill.


1 hour to 5 man scholo.....BS. Maybe I just suck or don't have the skills needed? Doesn't matter, I'm a paying customer.


with good gear, should take less than an hour. brd is supposed to be a 5 man lvl 55 dungeon.
sorry, you can't do something right maybe you don't deserve the reward


My point is not that everyone should have the same rewards. They could give better drops when it is not in a raid, or have more quest specific items that are only possible to complete in a 5 man party. I just like going in there with 7-10 of my buddies, having a good time, maybe get a drop I can use (usually not), and killing stuff. I am not asking for epics or tier 2 set pieces, just more than one instance to raid at 60 if I am not in a MC/BWL guild. I am not looking for handouts, just to enjoy the game.

[Asmodeann]

I agree, this sucks.

First off, I bypassed several pieces of Wildheart becuase i knew i could get better, just as easily. Now they are saying I have to go and get those? Great.

I also think lowering the player cap is garbage. Do it for the expansion when everyone will be lvl 70, fine. But now? Stupid. I'm gonna have to go get those last couple Wildheart pieces now, cuz after the patch, you wont catch me running Scholo or Strat until the expansion.

[zkajan]

1 hour to 5 man scholo.....BS. Maybe I just suck or don't have the skills needed? Doesn't matter, I'm a paying customer.
maybe tier 3 should drop off rabbits in Dun Morgoth, you know, so causals can get it because they are paying customers

[SirBazturd]

My point is not that everyone should have the same rewards.

I just like going in there with 7-10 of my buddies, having a good time, maybe get a drop I can use (usually not), and killing stuff. I am not asking for epics or tier 2 set pieces, just more than one instance to raid at 60 if I am not in a MC/BWL guild. I am not looking for handouts, just to enjoy the game.

Your response to my post is this???

maybe tier 3 should drop off rabbits in Dun Morgoth, you know, so causals can get it because they are paying customers


Are you unable to read?

[Mallstrop]

I guess atleast they're not capping BRD, smelting runs are still going to be nice and easy. A lot more teams are going to be going to BRD now that level 55s can't go to Strat and Scholo as easily.

[Steamboat]

I like the changes. I think it will be EASIER to find groups. I hate when you have a good group for 5 man scholo and the stupid leader wants to wait around until the group is "full" meaning another 30 minutes waiting around until he gets 5 more aggro-machine low level useless rogues or something.

Also, zerg runs make me fall asleep.

Also, you'll be getting more loot because you won't have to share it with as many people.

Also, there will be a higher chance that you will rolls on the stuff you need.

[Twoflower]

omg, all the crybabies that see theyr instance made harder :)

i apreciate that they made the instances more worthwile, they were getting boring months ago.

[AeroJonesy]

I see it this way:

If 5 people can now clear it as fast as 10 could (assuming Blizz removed some mob packs), then it will take half as long to fill a group. And that's the real time sink in doing a raid.

[janedoe]

I guess atleast they're not capping BRD, smelting runs are still going to be nice and easy. A lot more teams are going to be going to BRD now that level 55s can't go to Strat and Scholo as easily.

They are capping BRD:

To further enhance the experience of grouping in these dungeons, we've adjusted the player cap for each so that it's in-line with the exact number of players that we tuned the difficulty of the dungeon for. Below are the new player caps for each dungeon.

Stratholme: 5 players

Scholomance: 5 players

Blackrock Depths: 5 players

Blackrock Spire: 10 players

:azn:

[Sionzen]

I can see why they'd cap those instances but I sure don't think its a good thing.

[Domderon]

A great change that I've been anticipating for a long time. :) 5-manning those dungeons is much more fun but it used to be impossible to find a non-zerg group. Players will finally learn2play and there won't be any low levels being dragged along any more. From my experience more people does not mean faster progression. I remember a 15 man lbrs run very vivid where we wiped 4 or 5 times because someone not paying attention always screwed up. The few 5 man runs (and some 10 man runs) went much smoother.

A word to all those complaining now: You'll learn and see how much fun those instances can be with a group of 5. Don't worry, it's an improvement.

[5zigen]

Assuming they didnt dumb down the content significantly this is an excellent change. If you cant play for 2 hours straight, i guess your screwed. 2 hours really ISNT that long.

This change will make it much more challenging. Something that scholo and strat certianly were not with 10 people.

[Goretusker]

except for brd i am all for the changes in generals and caps in particular.

Letting 10 people do scholo is like letting 60 do bwl and say its ok because there will be more ppl rolling on stuff!
If you cant invest the time or have the skill to 5 man scholo you should be allowed to wear only green gear with occasional random blues just like you are only allowed to wear all epic gear if you can clear mc regularly.

I think they shouldnt have done this to brd as its not really an instance ppl go to for drops, my guild goes there to smelt and smith which will suck once only 5 ppl can go in there.

[Aerath]

I'm personally a bit miffed about the dungeon changes...

We're a wee guild - barely enough people for ZG.

UBRS was perfect for us, since you could take 15 people and go through it and have fun.

Now we'll have to leave people behind...

[WatcherZero]

This leaves just one zergable instance....LBRS :shocked:

least run instance becoming more popular after this?

[ti83plus]

Just another Blizzard attempt to kill their casual Gamer core... Soon it will break.. that 6.6 million customer base will trickle down.. maybe then they will learn.

"This leaves just one zergable instance....LBRS

least run instance becoming more popular after this?"

Well they said BlackRock Spire.. So it will affect LBRS as well.. since UBRS/LBRS is IN the same instance.

[pipda]

Umm, have to hunt down the discarded pieces again?

No thanks.

Teach you to EVER throw anything away hu? :evil:

[Kirkburn]

Just another Blizzard attempt to kill their casual Gamer core... Soon it will break.. that 6.6 million customer base will trickle down.. maybe then they will learn.

"This leaves just one zergable instance....LBRS

least run instance becoming more popular after this?"

Well they said BlackRock Spire.. So it will affect LBRS as well.. since UBRS/LBRS is IN the same instance.

6 million not 6.6million

Yes it will affect LBRS as well, but since when do you take FIFTEEN people in LBRS? The 10 man cap is intended for the UBRS part, since the instances are together they cannot cap LBRS as well - which is the only reason why it isn't capped.

And I'm a little confused as to how this will annoy the casual gamers? A large part of them haven't reached 60. Many others wish they could do the instances properly. There will be some who want to 'zerg' them yes, but I assure you there are better things to be doing - such as learning how to zerg them with 5 men :)

[ArcaneOne]

Wow, Blizz making those epic dungeon runs actually epic? Impressive!

I like the player caps for a few reasons:

1. Epic feel. You need the right team composition and skill to get it done. No more lowbies hanging back and spamming one skill. Learn 2 play.
2. Same time. It takes less time to get a group going, but more to run the dungeon.
3. Hardcore vs. Casual? Havent we figured out that this game is a time sink just like any other RPG? You want the good junk, you've got to loose the GF/Kids/Job and get to playing!

Remember...whining never solved anything. Its done, adapt/deal with it!

/2 FREE [Alterac Swiss] and [Linen Cloth] for whiny crybabies, pst

[Kirkburn]

Wow, Blizz making those epic dungeon runs actually epic? Impressive!

I like the player caps for a few reasons:

1. Epic feel. You need the right team composition and skill to get it done. No more lowbies hanging back and spamming one skill. Learn 2 play.
2. Same time. It takes less time to get a group going, but more to run the dungeon.
3. Hardcore vs. Casual? Havent we figured out that this game is a time sink just like any other RPG? You want the good junk, you've got to loose the GF/Kids/Job and get to playing!

Remember...whining never solved anything. Its done, adapt/deal with it!

/2 FREE [Alterac Swiss] and [Linen Cloth] for whiny crybabies, pst

I agree with your points mostly, but do you have to try and turn this forum into a copy of the official ones? :s
Tbh, there is no such casual/hardcore non-raider/raider divide, and there never will be.

[ArcaneOne]

I agree with your points mostly, but do you have to try and turn this forum into a copy of the official ones? :s
Aye, I apologize. Just seems pointless to argue about something that cannot be changed.....but if noone did then there would be a lot of empty forums!:shocked:
Tbh, there is no such casual/hardcore non-raider/raider divide, and there never will be.
Hardcore: One who reads forums/websites for strats/min-max'n and plays constantly ignoring friends and family.
Casual: One who plays for 1-2 hrs a day and tanks with a mage/imp, non-heal priest, moonfire spammer, ect.

[SirBazturd]

Mabye I'm in the minority, but for me, the loot is second to the game experience. I'm in a small guild of strangers who have become friends. It is fun to pack in a raid, kill a bunch of stuff, maybe pick up an upgrade here or there, and have some fun shooting the bull on TS.


Right now we have options...BRD, Strat, Scholo, Lower or UBRS. We can bring a few people who are 55+ in with us. We have fun trying to top the damage meter, over pulling, and doing things you can't do in a 5 man. These runs aren't done to fine tune our skills, they are done to create unity in the guild and have some fun.

[Kirkburn]

Aye, I apologize. Just seems pointless to argue about something that cannot be changed.....but if noone did then there would be a lot of empty forums!:shocked:

Hardcore: One who reads forums/websites for strats/min-max'n and plays constantly ignoring friends and family.
Casual: One who plays for 1-2 hrs a day and tanks with a mage/imp, non-heal priest, moonfire spammer, ect.
Ah, but what about those who sometimes read the forums, but don't play, or incompetent people who play WoW all day ... but spam moonfire and never heal? :wink:
Though there are people that fit both those definitions, there is a massive number of people who are between them. I read the forums myself and it is maddening the number of 'I hate casuals' etc. threads that come up, purporting to represent millions of 'disallusioned' players (who seem to be quite capable of playing happily as they are).

I have to say most arguments on this forum always seem to end with both sides agreeing with each other, which is always nice to see :)

Anyway, all I really want to see is pictures of the weather. So far it's been found in feralas. I'd install the test client but I don't have enough hdd space :(

[SirBazturd]

Hardcore: One who reads forums/websites for strats/min-max'n and plays constantly ignoring friends and family.
Casual: One who plays for 1-2 hrs a day and tanks with a mage/imp, non-heal priest, moonfire spammer, ect.

Just wanted to redefine your idea a bit.

Casual: One who may get to play 1-2 hours a day if his wife goes to sleep early and reads forums on his employer's time.

[ArcaneOne]

Just wanted to redefine your idea a bit.

Casual: One who may get to play 1-2 hours a day if his wife goes to sleep early and reads forums on his employer's time.

HAHAHA, EXACTLY!!....oops...boss coming...:hide:

[thejdawg2]

Cap BRS at 5. Go big or go home. :)




In all seriousness though, this makes me even happier they added an alchemy lab to BWL. Other than that, I don't particularly care either way.


And 5 manning Baron takes little more skill than 10 manning. Drak will still be able to be kited, making that fight inconseqential still. Gandling is, was, and ever shall be, a joke. The only thing of any difficulty is Baron. Get the medallion from Live Side and it's still a trivial fight.


Oh, and I hope they remove the Baroness' ability to Teleport: Moonglade while under MC. That is extremely annoying.

[craigbeere]

I think the cap will make it better for the player with only 1 or 2 hours. Getting 5 people together is a lot quicker than getting 10 or 15. If I only have 2 hours to play the game then I don't want to spend half of it sitting in a city sending out "LFM" messages.

Cheers
Craig

[Loriel]

10-manning Strat takes little or no individual skill, and you can pretty much get a free ride through the instance in about an hour - and hopefully pick up some nice loot along the way. In a 5 man group you actually have to work hard and push your character to the limit, which for me is pretty much the core attraction of WoW - much more so than the loot that can be obtained from it.

Since they are improving the loot tables of these instances, it makes perfect sense to cap them at 5 (or 10 for UBRS). If you want the new and improved loot, you better be prepared to work for it. This is the same deal as with Dire Maul, which has been capped at 5 ever since the patch that introduced instance capping (I think it was 1.3). Dire Maul is a pretty hard instance, DM West in particular, but the loot in here is to die for - best pre-raiding loot in the game, imho. And it's pretty much all BOP, so if you want it you have to push through DM yourself to get it - and maybe learn a few things about group dynamics in the process.

Forcing people to 5-man them also adds the elusive feeling of accomplishemnt, which is totally absent from a 10 man run. Even though I don't use it anymore, one of the items that I was most "proud" of was my Argent Crusader Staff - due to the fact that I had to 5-man Strat Scarlet and Strat UD to complete the quest chain. It was pretty hard, but i did it - so I felt that I had truly earned that staff.

One final advantage is that by limiting the Strat and Scholo groups to 5 people, it is possible to get the quests done. I'm up to the ZG, MC, AQ20 stage, but I still have quests in Strat and Scholo - mainly because nobody wants to 5-man them. Well, now they kinda have to :)

So all in all, I think capping these instances is a good thing. Maybe this will put a stop to the endless stream of LFGs to "Strat Baron Run!!!1". It will probably take shorter time putting groups together, even though people will probably be more cautious about the people they bring along. I would think these instances will only be run by 60s, and maybe more as guild runs - making them less PUG-friendly.

My only concern would be exactly this - no groups will probably bring a pre-60 to tag along, so this leaves a bit of a gap in the sequence of instances after 50. Maraudon at around 50, Sunken Temple at around 52, BRD at 55-56 (at least parts of it), and then nothing until you reach 60 and can head into Strat, Scholo and BRS.

Edit: One more concern might be that Hunters and Rogues will have an even harder time getting into Strat and Scholo groups after the 1.10 patch, at least as far as PUGs go. Guild runs would be a different matter, as these usually appreciate the contribution of a well-played dps class like these two - but I would think a PUG would rather have a Paladin/Shaman/Warlock/Druid over Hunter and Rogue.

[Thalassicus]

They're making the dungeons 5-man encounters as originally intended. Had they done this from the start, there would have been four casual 5-man endgame instances all along, which people have been commenting on a lack of. Strath, scholo, lbrs, dm -- those were ment to be the casual endgame content, but it's been trivialized by raids being the norm and the inability to find smaller groups.

I think they should have just had it this way in the first place, then there wouldn't be any problems. I would have liked the chance to 5-man them more, but at least incoming players will have that oppertunity :thumbsup:

[Havoc Jack]

My only concern would be exactly this - no groups will probably bring a pre-60 to tag along, so this leaves a bit of a gap in the sequence of instances after 50. Maraudon at around 50, Sunken Temple at around 52, BRD at 55-56 (at least parts of it), and then nothing until you reach 60 and can head into Strat, Scholo and BRS.

From 57-59, do the other parts of BRD. Emperor is level 59, which means that your tank has to be minimally 57. (That's the standard I use when measuring who goes to an instance. dps can be two levels lower than that as long as they don't get themselves killed, and healers lower still if they're good.) Other group member can be . If the rest of your group is level 60, there should be no reason why you can't bring one or two lower levels along.

I should mention that I"m in a minimal guild, where we schedule our five man runs much like normal guilds schedule molten core. For those who say these things can be done in less than an hour with five men, remember that we don't all have the gear and experience you do.

[brage]

I guess atleast they're not capping BRD, smelting runs are still going to be nice and easy. A lot more teams are going to be going to BRD now that level 55s can't go to Strat and Scholo as easily.

Haven't got the time to find the Blizz quote, but I read that BRD is getting a 5 man cap too.

[Piemaster]

I like the change. I am a very casual player in so far as I only play a few hours a week. I have a string of Strat and Scholo quests in my log that I can never do because nobody on my server ever wants to 5-man them.

[moopy]

If this is true, that's really good news, as long as they don't nerf them even more, to be even easier. Most of the high level dungeons before the endgame have been nerfed a few times, yet still the ROFLcopter kids insist on raiding them. Forcing the dopey little weasels to actually face some slight challenge might improve the quality of random PUGs (assuming that people actually stick with it, and of course).

As they currently stand, you can't clear these places out with at least some skill and teamwork, but they aren't too class critical. A pally or feral druid can MT them, any spec priest or druid can main heal them, as can some pallies. A lot of fun can be had doing a good job.

Do you have a link to a blue post about these changes? Are they finally making UBRS a 10 man instance, as it was designed? That suffers from the same problems, a 15 man raid there can be as dull/easy as Strat raids...

It might well be good for casual players. I get a lot of random whispers asking me to join groups for strat/scholo/brs. However, I don't join "class raids" or similar, as the gold is spread too thin to even help with my repair cost fund, and the challenge is nonexistent. I know other players who feel the same way. I am certainly more likely to join a 5-man to lbrs (or similar) than a raid, and I suspect that I am the only one.

Casual players often find that the only PUGs to a lot of these instances are stupid kiddie raids, which means that they can't even get their quests done, which is frustrating. It can be very hard for people without a ready-made pool of players to draw upon to even get 5-man for these places, due to the lazinessnes of the ROFLcopter brigade, and how terrified they are of leaving their comfort zone and having to put in some effort to see the reward. Making the change as implied above might be the only way to stop the LFG channel being dominated by basket case "easy mode" kids, which ruins the game. Just because you don't play all the time, it doesn't always follow that you're lacking fundamentally in skill, intelligence or reflexes. This could be a smart move by blizz to improve the game for casual players, albeit at the expense of those on the very left hand side of the ability bell curve.

For myself, I don't know if I am "casual" or "hardcore". Casual players call me "hardcore", hardcore players giggle at the fact that I have a job, a relationship and occasionally even like to sleep. Either way, I can't see this change (if it's true, links please) as a good thing.

[DotComm]

If this is true, that's really good news
Either way, I can't see this change (if it's true, links please) as a good thing.

Make your mind up Moopy! You can find the patch notes on the EU official WoW site here (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/underdev/testrealm.html ) and this thread (http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general-en&t=875752&p=1&tmp=1#post875752) outlines all dungeon changes in greater detail, including the caps. And it's blue, as you requested :)

SB

[WingedNazgul]

If they had done this from the start, that would mean that the only instances where you could group more than 5 would be UBRS, MC, and Onyxia.

That would've left the raider out in the cold IMO.

[Gaelan]

If they had done this from the start, that would mean that the only instances where you could group more than 5 would be UBRS, MC, and Onyxia.

That would've left the raider out in the cold IMO.

Eh? Raiders would hit UBRS or MC or Onyxia anyway. Why would a raider, when they have the ability to, not go to a 15 or 40 man, but rather a significantly easier place instead with the same people?

When the game was released you could take 40 people and zerg Strath, Scholo, or BRS if you wanted. There was no max at all. If you can get 30-40 people why would you fiddle around with Strath?

Besides, "raiding" Strath or Scholo isn't even raiding. Its more like a glorified chat run.

[WingedNazgul]

Raiders wouldn't be able to hit MC or Onyxia right away so if the game was capped at the beginning like the OP suggested, the only instance you could group more than 5 at the very beginning would be UBRS.

Period.

I'm not commenting on whether zerging instances is fun or not. Just providing some perspective on how this game would've been if instances had been capped at the very beginning.

[Gaelan]

Raiders wouldn't be able to hit MC or Onyxia right away so if the game was capped at the beginning like the OP suggested, the only instance you could group more than 5 at the very beginning would be UBRS.

Period.

I'm not commenting on whether zerging instances is fun or not. Just providing some perspective on how this game would've been if instances had been capped at the very beginning.

If you were trying to get geared for the "real" raiding instances, then doing 3-4 simultaneous Strath/Scholo 5-man runs with 15-20 people (total) woulda been better. People do that sometimes for DM right now. It wouldn't have left anyone in the dark.