How Blizzard can put GOLD SELLERS out of business!!

[UtherSacrifice]

This topic got me banned from Blizzards forum, they deleted it 2 times and banned me.

Here is the simplest way to put chinese farmers out of business.

Instead of the farmers selling gold on Ebay or websites Blizzard can sell the gold for real money.

Remember Prohibition here in the US in the late 20s, the government prohibited the sale of alcohol, guess what the criminals started bootlegging alcohol and the cops were constantly trying to bust them. Sounds kinda like Blizzard trying to go after the gold sellers right?

Well what if Blizz did sell gold, they would put the farmers out of business and at the same time generate more revenue to provide even a higher level of service with more servers and connectivity.

Naturally, you would want to put a cap on how much can be purchased during a period of time. Cant have some guy buying 10,000 gold. Allow purchases of 1000g a week or something. Kinda like how ISPs give you net access but have a cap on bandwidth.

I am not avocating cheating in the game, but seriously if you think about it, this will put the farmers out of business which is selling gold.

[snowieken]

And this would solve the gold selling problem... how?

By the way... This topic got me banned from Blizzards forum, they deleted it 2 times and banned me.Not a very good opening line for a first post on another forum.

[Skahr]

I dont think this will put the gold farmers out of business at all. If Blizz starts selling gold, the farmers will just cut there prices back or vice versa. Its similar to why America wont legalize marijuana, but not as big. If it was legalized, do u think all the drug dealers would just randomly stop selling drugs? I doubt it. Im not saying this idea is out of line, just saying it doesnt seem too plausable. Just my pennies.

-Skahr

[ohearntp]

Could quite possibly be the dumbest post I have read on this forum to date... good job :thumbsup:

[UtherSacrifice]

Skahr- thanks for the intelligent post.

[WhiteHat]

The biggest problem with this idea can be explained by this parallel:

---------------
ZOMG - I've just figured out how they can fix the casual gamers Vs hard core raiders problem!!!!11

All they have to do is buff all classes so you can take on Molten core and above instances in a group of 5!!1!1one this will mean that everyone can have epics!!!lol
---------------

In addition, legitemising the sale of gold will only encourage people to buy gold, not deter them - it will destroy the economy entirely and render the game useless.

[Raistlin Majere]

Know why nobody plays Everquest 2? because sony sells items for real money.

[Mincemaker]

To put the chinese gold farmers out of business, WE must choose not buy any gold. If they lost their customers, they will, naturally, decide to stop.

Just like drugs too. Drugs can be banned, but it will still stay there unless there is zero demand for it.

[bwirum]

Could quite possibly be the dumbest post I have read on this forum to date... good job :thumbsup:
Not at all. It's an idea for making the lives better for those of us suffering under the hands of the farmers at times.

Those farmers who camp the good places ALL the bloody time so we don't have a shot at getting to it or are vastly inefficient when trying to.

I suggest you state WHY you think this is a bad idea instead of just boasting out silly posts like that.

Now, to the topic at hand, I think the idea, or the thought behind it, is basically good, however I don't think it would get rid of gold farmers alltogether. Much like Skahr said somewhere up there ^^.

And Snow, many people, including myself, don't think of it as a "gold selling problem", more like a "farming the stuff to have gold to sell problem" if you see what I mean ;). Essentially they're both bad, but choose the lesser evil and all, you know...

[Valas Azuviir]

I do seem to recall Blizzard publically stated that they won't follow SOE's footsteps when it comes to the sale of gold or items.

So there's a PR issue involved, with many still seeing SOE as the big bad in the MMORPG business. Emulating them would mean unnecessary bad press.

There's also another issue, namely legal. If folks do buy items from Blizzard, it goes around the whole, everything within the game is owned by Blizzard. I don't think that the direct purchase of an item would qualify as leasing them. Thus, if there had to be a rollback, or the character DB got damaged, etc etc, then said people could possibly sue Blizzard and with a far stronger case, then they'd have now, for damages.

In short, this would be a bad business decision for Blizzard and banning folks from goldselling or purchasing gold is far simpler in the end.

[muryon]

Gold sellers arnt going anywhere anytime soon and their wont be a quick fix that will get rid of them overnight ether. I think the best way to deal with them is making it harder and harder to sell the gold in game by doing a lot of small things that is far less harmful to the normal player. Large blanket rules/changes to hurt gold sellers usually hurt the normal players more so.

Something like recording all mails with say a gold count of like 500 or 1000+ and flagging accounts to be reviewed later after say 5-10 flags in Xdays/weeks. I would think any normal player wouldnt be sending 1000+ gold many times in a short period of time. After a account was flagged the say 10times they would be listed as an account to be looked in to or monitored until proven to be a farmer or normal char that isnt selling the gold but has another legit reason to be moving that much gold.

I can think of many other ways to slow gold selling down but most that come to mind atm hurt normal players about as much as the farmers.

[LiquidGold]

If Blizzard started selling gold to players it would in a short space of time start to screw up the economy of the game. As players bought more and more gold the price of items on the AH would no doubt beging to rise up and up and in turn this would cause people to buy more gold. As to weather or not this would eventually level off or not I'm unsure, but I hope this never happens.
Also due to the rise in demand in bought gold from Blizzard this could prove to be very lucrative for them. I feel though, in the end it would destroy what is a great game as players would soon become sick of spending all this money especially as they already pay a monthly subscription team.
I also believe WhiteHat made a very valid point in his earlier post in that this would start to change the balance between casual and hardcore gamers. I wouldn't class myself as a hardcore gamer but like to think I put in enough time so that eventually I will get a full tier 2 epic set and some nice weapons. If players could buy gold legally from Blizz you would see casual gamers becomming better equipped for doing very little work.

[SURFEROSA]

If Blizzard started selling gold to players it would in a short space of time start to screw up the economy of the game.

Did I hear mention of the economics of WOW... hold me back...

In a very strange way, Uther does actually have a point. Making any illegal market legitimate is a way that the supply of a commodity can be controlled. The key is that it must give the consumer the ability to procure either more convenientely than the black market, or cheaper. In the case of prohibition in the 1920's this was definitely convenience (the end of underworld controlled speakeasys, or the inherent dangers of consuming homebrew).

The anology with drugs is a harder one to draw. No mature western ecomony has legalised the consumtion of all drugs; cases of partial legitamcy (cannibas in Amerstdam) are difficult to use in parallel because of the impact of drug tourism, and the fact that not all drugs are legal (so the black market still congrates around this 'free' market). The analogy would be like allowing only one website the ability to sell epic items, but also allowing it to hyperlink to gold sellers. The black market would continue to flourish.

For the legalisation of gold selling to have any impact therefore, it would either have to undercut the current blackmarket (a dangerous game, I would think), or make it more 'convenient'. Given that the market already has little transaction overhead- it is difficult to see how Blizzard could make it any more convenient. The only measure it would have would be to make the illegal acquisition of gold carry significant penalties; but, given that is the current policy it is debatable how effective it would be.

So, I'd arue that Uther is correct. Legitimising the market could indeed be used to put gold sellers out of business (and maybe an end to the farmers that clog up popular farming areas). However, the impact of doing so may be to create more adverse impacts (encourages more people to buy gold, gold could be bought on an infant economy, etc).

And, as I said before somewhere, I personally doubt how much of an adverse impact on the game a gold-buying inflationary ecomomy has. So why bother?

[XaToM]

What we do is replace GOLD with CHEESE, that way there will be no more gold sellers, however we will be infested with cheese sellers. :tongue:

[Mincemaker]

What we do is replace GOLD with CHEESE, that way there will be no more gold sellers, however we will be infested with cheese sellers. :tongue:

You can buy your cheese in Hammerfall. And it is kinda cheap too.

[Dallana]

The thing about farmed gold is that it destroys the economy. The major Gold Farming companies ensure their continued existance by increasing inflation due to the large influx of money entering the open market. The more money that's in the market, the less a single piece of gold is worth and as a result prices rise. The thing about the MMORPG economy is, that the amount of money earned (or in this case looted) does not rise in line with inflation, so as prices rise, gamers are forced to invest more time to get the same result. Since people don't want to spend ever increasing amounts of time grinding out cash, many take the easier option of buying gold, which only makes the problem worse.

[SURFEROSA]

The thing about farmed gold is that it destroys the economy.

Upto a point. But you are mising a couple of things.. the BOP effect. The top-end equipment can not be bought, it must be earn't. Therefore, as your purchasing power dimishes with inflation, so to does the importance of having money.

In addition, the other big money sinks are fixed price (mounts, skill-ups, etc). So inflation actually assists new players to obtain these rather than hinders them.

Saying it 'destroys' the economy over-simplify's the impact of increased money supply within the economy. What it actually does is erode savings quicker- but a player that continues to play the game (rather than do nothing), will continue to generate enough wealth to more than offset the impact of inflation. Thats one of the main reasons (imo) why WOW continues to be successful on mature servers so long after launch.

[twoswords]

I am not avocating cheating in the game, but seriously if you think about it, this will put the farmers out of business which is selling gold.

So making it legal would help? Even if the gold farmers disspeared by this method you would have so many people buying gold that the prices on any crafting or enchanting as well as AH go through the roof. In effect the game prices would collapse upon themselves.

I can see it now.."WTS <Stockade Pauldrons> 5000 Gold. Blizz goldbuy adress is www.blizzgoldsell.ubah. Dont miss the low price!!!"

[rmvetski]

why would blizzard ban you for this post though

that's quite retarded

[snowieken]

I acknowledge that there is a possibility that the farming will drastically decrease, so that's the only reason why it may be a good solution.

But first of all, there is no guarantee at all. The sellers just have to lower their prices and boom, we're back to square one. In order to address this, Blizzard has to lower their prices as well, which results in the sellers going even lower, etc etc. In the end the number of people buying gold will only increase because the prices are so laughable. If anyone is tempted to buy any gold now, he will most likely do so when it's just 5000 gold a buck.

And it completely devaluates the game. I don't know about the argument that it ruins the economy - I know it does, a bit, but I don't have a clue to what extent. MY main beef with gold selling is that it makes a joke of the game. Finally acquiring that epic mount after hours of farming, after hours of hard work, and someone else just paid $20 dollars for it and he's happily hopping around. Sure, you have the satisfaction that you've worked for it yourself, but nevertheless, it completely devaluates the game just as duping did back with Diablo II.

Blizzard selling gold won't take care of that, hence I think it's a stupid idea. There you have your reason, bwirum.

[Varmint]

I dont think this will put the gold farmers out of business at all. If Blizz starts selling gold, the farmers will just cut there prices back or vice versa. Its similar to why America wont legalize marijuana, but not as big. If it was legalized, do u think all the drug dealers would just randomly stop selling drugs? I doubt it. Im not saying this idea is out of line, just saying it doesnt seem too plausable. Just my pennies.

-Skahr
Yes, if marijuana was legalized, dealers would no longer sell weed.They would do like the Mob did after Prohibition and move to a more lucrative trade.Imagine the strain it would take off our legal system tho ;p

[SURFEROSA]

Yes, if marijuana was legalized, dealers would no longer sell weed.They would do like the Mob did after Prohibition and move to a more lucrative trade.Imagine the strain it would take off our legal system tho ;p

Not true. It comes entirely down to two factors; convenience for the consumer and cost. Some consumers would be encouraged to buy from legal channels through convenience (ie risk of getting caught, ease of transaction), but for the vast majority it would come down to cost.

And, just because something is legalised, doesnt make it cheaper. In the UK buying cigarettes is legal. However 20% of all consumed are acquired illegally because smuggled cigarettes are cheaper (because of taxes).

And any benefit to the legal system would need to be offset with increased costs from health spending and policing attributable to increased usage.

So where this argument connects with selling of gold, I dont know.

MY main beef with gold selling is that it makes a joke of the game. Finally acquiring that epic mount after hours of farming, after hours of hard work, and someone else just paid $20 dollars for it and he's happily hopping around. Sure, you have the satisfaction that you've worked for it yourself, but nevertheless, it completely devaluates the game just as duping did back with Diablo II.

I understand the sentiment, although I am not sure I agree. In life, people cheat. People defraud social socurity, they steal; many people seem to think that life owes them something.

Well, this gets on my nerves. I pay taxes, I work hard and I don't want want to see people making a mockery of life by getting everything the easy way.

But, do I care? Nope. I have a huge satisfaction from being able to provide for my family by fair means not foul; and if one day I see somewhen getting sent to prison for these actions I'll definitely have a smile on my face. But, I will not let their way of life impact my own.

So, dont condone gold selling; dont associate with it, encourage it or allow it in your forums. But dont think it devalues your game achievements, or the game itself. It devalues nothing but their own achievements; we know it, they know it.

And maybe one day they'll get banned for it :smiley:

[mesonm]

You can buy your cheese in Hammerfall. And it is kinda cheap too.

Yes, but lets hope that nobody EVER cuts the cheese....

:thumbsup:

[HobJoe]

I had an even better way for blizzard to put an end to it and I got banned too. Im not sure if I'm banned or what, nut whenever i post it dosent show up. I was never told i was banned...anyway

I suggested that blizzard enlist the help its players to seek out the sellers. By offering free subscriptions to players that hand them gold sellers. My method was simple, but would require a small investment. Buy the gold give blizzard the name, they would obviously be able to verify it by checking the mail logs. It would put a quick end to it if you were selling to blizzard spies.

Also I dont encourage, nor defame gold buying. I know at a certain point it could get out of hand, but the current gold selling situation does not ruin the economy. Mostly because its against the rules, so it dosent get out of hand. But in the same way that it strains the economy, it balances itself as well. If prices at AH go up then so does the amount of money you make from AH. Dont get me wrong, it only balances to a certain point. But the people that are actually putting the work into the game are the ones aquiring the items to sell at AH. So when theres inflation its balanced by the trade market. However the game has a built in value of items at normal vendors, as well as a value earned from killing certain mobs. That is where the balance would lose effect over time. So if it got out of hand it would surely ruin the game, but at the slow pace its at now it hardly affects it.

Before anyone starts flaming me about condoning gold buying hear this. I dont buy gold, i dont sell gold. I earn every bit of in game property that i have. To me the game is about earning money, building your toon etc...If you buy everything you need in the game, whats the point of playing? With the exception of end game content theres nothing left to do with a lvl 60 with all epics. It takes the fun out of it for me but I dont get upset about other people doing it. In my opinion a game without objectives is just pointless wandering, gankin lowbies, and cancelling your subscription after 2 months out of shear boredom.

[WingedNazgul]

If Blizzard did indeed start selling gold, they might get rid of gold farmers.

But they would lose me as a paying customer, for sure.

[HobJoe]

If Blizzard did indeed start selling gold, they might get rid of gold farmers.

But they would lose me as a paying customer, for sure.

Agreed. If blizzard were selling gold, than you would need to buy it in order to play the game.

[Valas Azuviir]

why would blizzard ban you for this post though

that's quite retarded

Not really, their forums, their rules.
If they deem that said post will lead to unnecessary flaming, then they more than have the right to delete it. Repeatedly posting a deleted thread will get you banned. Not too surprising, considering folks didn't get the hint the first time around by way of deletions.

The Mods there, while they frown on folks posting about locked or deleted thread, do tend to give answers if folks ask politely. " Hey, my post on shaving Orcish armpits got deleted. Did I do something wrong?? Spent a lot of time writing that text, and I'd like to know in advance what is and is not allowed, so I won't be wasting my time again."

Stuff like that tends to lead to answers, as opposed to bannings.

As for the whole gold selling idea, I point back to a point made during one of the numerous other debates we've had on this issue. Gold selling impugnes on the sense of fairness of a lot of people. As opposed to earning something, by putting in the time, folks get it by being wealthy in the outside world.

And one of the underlying themes of any MMORPG is the level playing field, when compared to real life. It's all supposed to be dependant upon the time you spend as to whether or not you're one of the l33t or not. The fact that wealth can effect the time folks can spend on the game is subsequently ignored, but that's another issue.

If Blizzard started selling gold, then they'd be violating that sense of fairness that a lot of folks have, and thus lead to more folks leaving than make use of the system. I point to Sony's attempts to make some extra dosh with this and all the server mergers they had to perform subsequently to deal with declining memberships.

It's just plain bad business sense really.

[Sweetriver]

Here is what I don't understand. All i have to do is run a search on any search engine or ebay for "WOW gold" and I will get a ton of websites or auctions for people promoting gold sale. Theoretically, I can visit these sites, give them a credit card number, and buy gold, which would then be transferred to my character in game. If it is in fact this easy to buy gold, which is against Blizzard rules and terms of service, why can't Blizzard somehow sue these websites, or set up undercover sting operations with their characters to expose gold sellers and ban all of their related accounts.

If these markets would want to continue to thrive they would have to continually pay to update fresh accounts with Blizzard, which takes more money, and pay with time to level characters to farm. This would make the cost of selling gold go way too high so that it no longer becomes a profit for the gold farmers to do so. Or they would increase the cost of gold to an extent that the market does not see fit to pay. Thus, both situations would result in a failed business for the gold farming companies.

I do believe that gold farming, item farming, account selling, etc. ruins gameplay for the honest and those following the rules. In game economy gets screwed up and can lead to poor gaming experiences down the line.

[Oatmealsmurf]

Because it would be a waste of real resources... if the government is constantly losing the war on drugs what makes you think Blizzard is going to have success in fighting a war based on the same principles in cyberspace? The net result would be them eroding their profit margin and us paying for in the long run with increased prices.

[Athame]

If it is in fact this easy to buy gold, which is against Blizzard rules and terms of service, why can't Blizzard somehow sue these websites, or set up undercover sting operations with their characters to expose gold sellers and ban all of their related accounts. Sueing is a problem, because of the international nature of the internet, and if that isn't bad enough, breaking a terms of service contract is hardly the most serious of offenses. How to estimate the damage caused? Does it even hurt Blizzard financially? To me, I'm not a lawyer, but a case like this sounds dodgier to make than copyright infringement. Let's face it, it's not hard to find your album or movie of choice on the internet - and we know they've been trying. That being said, they do try, they kept ebay clean for a while for example. The best bet they have is in the world they do control, the online world. And they try it there too. But all they can do there is ban.. at least it doesn't cost legal fees.

People don't just buy/sell gold, they also buy/sell characters. Freshly leveled toons and characters aquired from ex-players are already available in these businesses, so banning accounts has a relatively small impact. It would only stop if there was a much, much higher catchrate. I assume that the manpower that would take isn't going to fly in Blizzards business plan, specially since the monetary gains for Blizzard will be hard to estimate. It's basically just 'quality of service', but how much is this worth to the player? Would they pay $2 extra a month to double the catchrate? Would they be willing to receive less content patches or less GM time regarding other issues to reduce this problem?

[HobJoe]

People don't just buy/sell gold, they also buy/sell characters. Freshly leveled toons and characters aquired from ex-players are already available in these businesses, so banning accounts has a relatively small impact. It would only stop if there was a much, much higher catchrate. I assume that the manpower that would take isn't going to fly in Blizzards business plan, specially since the monetary gains for Blizzard will be hard to estimate. It's basically just 'quality of service', but how much is this worth to the player? Would they pay $2 extra a month to double the catchrate? Would they be willing to receive less content patches or less GM time regarding other issues to reduce this problem?
Not necessarily...
Gold selling costs blizzard money. Dont get me wrong they are concerned with game quality, but the all mighty dollar is the end reason. People buying gold will not spend the amount of time playing as the rest of us. So less time playing = less monthly subscriptions, which also = less money for blizzard. Accounts have a lifespan, and gold sellers shorten that lifespan by taking the time off of 5 accounts per one seller. Being that it is a video game people are only going to play it for so long, so they build in a timeframe to max out in the game. Normal non hardcore players can play for months before they reach 60, and a couple more months for the gold and epics. If people buy these items it takes months off the lifespan of their accounts. Blizzard is in the buisness of making money, not being everyones friends.

EDIT:
Imagine this....
There are sellers on every server.
there are dozens of servers for each type. (RP,PvP,PvE, etc...)
There are dozens of these sellers on each server.
Imagine how fast that adds up if you assume each seller consumes a year (or more) of subscriptions.
And these sellers only have a couple of accounts since you can play on multiple severs with each account.

[Oatmealsmurf]

That's true but paying an attorney for one hour to work on a potential suit against gold farmers is worth 16 months in subscription fees (and I'm being generous assuming a ($250/hr attorney rate)... It's not about whether it costs Blizzard money... it's about whether it's cost effective to pursue that lost revenue through legal channels.

[jibbrish]

It's really not the sellers that are the issue, it's the buyers. If we could ban all gold buyers, well, it'd be dam sweet. And like others have said, the second blizzard follows SOE down the real money trade (RMT) route, i'm cancelling my subscription. Simple as that.

As far as blizzard suing anyone, on what grounds? The TOS & EULA's on video games have taken a beating in the courts (UK or European i believe) lately. Most game companies aren't going to push a fight based on them into the courts, they could find that their TOS & EULAs are unconstitutional in most places and are therefore null & void. The might be able to go after them on copyright grounds but even that is going to be a hard fight.

The best they can do is keep watching for the signs of gold sellers / buyers and beat them with the ban stick.

[brandondash]

It's really not the sellers that are the issue, it's the buyers. If we could ban all gold buyers, well, it'd be dam sweet.
Jail the junkies, not the pushers?

[jibbrish]

I didn't mention drugs.

These tools aren't junkies, just cheaters. And yep, cheaters should lose, i have no problem with that. Quite frankly, i have much more sympathy for the working slob stuck in a dead end 'farming' job because they have no other prospects than the twit that can't figure out any other way to make a few gold than pulling out their credit card.

[SURFEROSA]

Jail the junkies, not the pushers?

Lol. Well observed.

Just imagine the internal Blizzard meeting where this gets suggested;

"We think we should ban a significant minority of our fee paying customers."
"Why?"
"For buying Gold, because it increases inflationary pressure, upsets some of our customer base and is against the general ethos of WOW."
"But wont it decrease our profit?"
"Well, yea; but it will make people happier."
"But banning these people loses us money, right?"
"erm, yep"
"goodbye"

Cant see it myself.

[Your Average WoW Player]

It's really not the sellers that are the issue, it's the buyers. If we could ban all gold buyers, well, it'd be dam sweet. And like others have said, the second blizzard follows SOE down the real money trade (RMT) route, i'm cancelling my subscription. Simple as that.

Well said.

It's not the Gold Farmers who are at fault, it's the BUYERS.

The gold that the farmer will sell just sits in his backpack. He doesn't spend it, or if he does, he get's it right back by buying an item that's cheap on the AH, and putting it back on the AH with a higher price. So the Gold that sits in the Farmer's backpack doesn't damage the economy. Now, when a player comes along and buys the 10,000 gold sitting in the Farmer's backpack, then the economy of the game get's raped, because that player will use it.

What Blizzy is doing now is just fine. Banning Sellers, deleting bought gold, banning buyers, and plenty of money sinks in the game (AH-Cuts, Durability, Bank Slots, Training, etc.) is enough to keep the economy under control, even with the Gold Trade going on.

We don't need to Blizzy to pull an SOE, and besides, there already is selling of items, it's called the Auction House. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Athame]

Even if they could find and ban all the buyers, that would cost Blizzard a lot of money, at least in the short run. And most companies (and their shareholders) are more concerned about the immediate future than long term predictions. Since even a lot of non-Blizzard WoW sites feature gold ads through Google, I think a first time warning is not only smart but also reasonable. More people read the ads than the EULA or forum posts about people getting banned - such posts aren't even allowed on the official forums.

And regarding all this SOE bashing, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this like only on a few select EQII servers? It's a choice players can make, not forced upon them. Probably more of an experiment than anything - seeing how they already discovered people were willing to pay for name changes and server transfers.

[Scorch_Hellfire]

simply put blizz selling gold would defeat the purpose of getting rid of gold sellers... and apparently banning all the buyers wont help... but then again how do you suppose theyre supposed to get rid of gold selling sites?... sue them or something?... i mean they cant really just go to the interenet and delete them... so theyre always going to be there til people stop making use of them and they cant survive anymore and shut down... sad but true... :undecided:

[kevagron]

Well, theres always the other side of the coin (pun intended :smiley: )

I work in a high pressure job, 11-12 hours a day including commuting and my playing time after seeing the kids to bed is probably not much more than 3 hours/night, and because I don't want to end up divorced, not more than 4 nights/week with maybe a decent session on the weekend if I'm lucky.

Now I can easily afford to buy gold, what I can't afford is to buy the TIME necessary to farm the gold, to buy the items I want.

I haven't bought gold in WoW, and probably won't because I don't see WoW holding my attention that much longer but for people in my position it is an attractive option to just spend a £100 ($160?) or so to buy that purple item they may never see otherwise.

To a significant number of people dropping a £100 on some gold really doesn't matter - my boss doesn't play computer games, but he spends £500 a month on a golf club membership when he only plays 1 or 2 times a week (I think he averages about £80 a round for his golf)

Not everyone can spend 8+ hours a day , or 30+ hours a week playing a game farming the necessary 100's or 1000's of gold the best AH items cost.

Not saying its right or wrong, cheating or not - just saying I can understand why people do it.

[ArcaneOne]

It is true what they say...you hang around long enough you will see things repeat themselves. This thread has been discussed to death before and....omg why am I responding since I am perpetuating this nonsense?....oh yeah boredom.:undecided:

Here's your answer...Let them sell the gold. People buy convenience all the time. Most want it for free. If you use the Internet for help with quests and such you are using someone's time for your convenience.

There is unlimited gold on each server, but limited time to play....well us that have a life that is (actually I have no life, but you get my point). This means that you are only buying to save time in collecting it yourself.

It is the people that do not understand how to adapt to the economy that have a problem with gold sellers. I would love to be the last person not buying gold on my server and here's why...

1. Everyone has 1 Billion gold.
2. I have a some Copper Bars I need to sell.
3. The gold buyers dont care about farming items since they can buy anything they want.
4. I place the Copper Bar with only a bid.
5. I collect my 50g from the bank shortly after.

Why is step 3 true? Usually if you buy gold it is because youre trying to save time. If you can buy mats why take a gathering profession?

So let them buy their gold! I need to gouge some of the rich kids in the AH.:thumbsup:

[Valas Azuviir]

Now this might be a bit of voodoo logic but bear with me.

And no, this isn't aimed at any poster personally perse, it's more the concept behind what they're arguing in favour for..

Anyway, to get back on track.

Do you enjoy these forums??
You are aware of this site's stance on gold selling??
Yet by buying gold, you let those "entities", and that's about the friendliest term I can use for them, know that there is a market for them.
Meaning, that they will try to advertize at the major fansites like this one.
Regardless, of advertising being against the forum rules here.
Their presence leads to flaming, which effects the general morale of the forums.

Meaning, that by buying gold, you're helping to destroy what makes these forums so pleasant.

Now do you think that's ok??
And if so, why are you still here?? :wink:

[ArcaneOne]

Meaning, that they will try to advertize at the major fansites like this one.

Now do you think that's ok??
And if so, why are you still here?? :wink:

Valas, I understand your meaning behind it, but it is a different manner entirely to advertise in a forum. For example, buying computers (Yes kids, RL) is completely legal, but you still would not want even a single post promoting a sale on this forum now would you?

Instead what would happen is that there would be a nice "Buy Gold from Us!!" banner across the top of the forum instead of the dating ones currently (sad, aiming at the lonely geeks).

[Valas Azuviir]

Valas, I understand your meaning behind it, but it is a different manner entirely to advertise in a forum. For example, buying computers (Yes kids, RL) is completely legal, but you still would not want even a single post promoting a sale on this forum now would you?

Instead what would happen is that there would be a nice "Buy Gold from Us!!" banner across the top of the forum instead of the dating ones currently (sad, aiming at the lonely geeks).

Hey, I did say it was voodoo logic. :grin:
Anyway, I'm getting an computer game music concert banner. *shrugs*

Also, you don't see folks from say Dell, Alienware, Falconwest etc, show up here to hawk their wares. While you do see that with the goldsellers and powerlevellers etc.

It's a difference in mentality. The computer companies know that they don't have to sink so low to get customers, not so with the gold sellers. They already don't care that they're violating their agreements with Blizzard in regards to their activities, so why would they care about violating their agreement with the forum hosts, said agreements are made when you register.

By buying gold, folks are reinforcing the ideas that folks can simply ignore made agreements whenever it suits them. And that will eventually lead to a lot of unpleasantness for all of us.

[ArcaneOne]

They already don't care that they're violating their agreements with Blizzard in regards to their activities, so why would they care about violating their agreement with the forum hosts, said agreements are made when you register.

By buying gold, folks are reinforcing the ideas that folks can simply ignore made agreements whenever it suits them. And that will eventually lead to a lot of unpleasantness for all of us.
Agreed. Allowing it should have happened in the first place or switching from banning to legal could be tricky.

If allowed gold buying would....
1. Become organized and organizations/companies formed to fill the need.
2. These said organizations would have numbers behind them to drive out independent sellers with lowest prices (just like RL businesses do...actually this would be an RL business)

Gold buying has it's greatest effect if only "some" people do it. If everyone is "able to and does" then grinders would make some serious cash off them.

You can't stop Gold Buying/Character Buying so just let it go and adapt.

[Steamboat]

Why don't they just make every piece of equipment in the game BoP?

Yay! I just bought 1000g from the farmers so I can buy some.....fire protection potions. :(

Would it seriously be that big of a step? 80% of the good stuff is BoP anyway.

[Valas Azuviir]

You can't stop Gold Buying/Character Buying so just let it go and adapt.

It's more a case, least in my mind anyway, of the following.

The goldsellers are going to go to the communities to advertise, that's just general business and I can understand them doing that. Doesn't mean I want them posting over here though, precisely, because it leads to the flame wars and folks getting upset and more snappy towards one and other. End result?? These forums become like the official ones.

Folks who buy gold are therefore supporting the degredation of these forums. And that's a bad thing imo, especially when they start posting their justifications for their behaviour. They may be right that it doesn't effect the server economies, I've got no idea either way.

What I do know is that their actions help convince the goldsellers that there is a market and that they therefore need to advertise. And so they come here, so those buyers are effecting these forums in a roundabout way. So, I ask of them, are you really ok with turning these forums into a carbon copy of the official forums?? And, if so, why are you coming here?? Why not go to the official forums and let the rest of us have our nice little safe haven??

[Bryant]

I dont think this will put the gold farmers out of business at all. If Blizz starts selling gold, the farmers will just cut there prices back or vice versa. Its similar to why America wont legalize marijuana, but not as big. If it was legalized, do u think all the drug dealers would just randomly stop selling drugs? I doubt it. Im not saying this idea is out of line, just saying it doesnt seem too plausable. Just my pennies.

-Skahr

Just was I was ganna say. Well put, Skahr.

[Haircut]

It seems like a slightly disturbing paradox to me.

If blizzard sells gold, chinese farmers wont... Therefore no gold selling?

It also seems that there would be some problems with massive inflation unless Blizzard introduced some new sort of gold sink.

[Mincemaker]

It seems like a slightly disturbing paradox to me.

If blizzard sells gold, chinese farmers wont... Therefore no gold selling?

It also seems that there would be some problems with massive inflation unless Blizzard introduced some new sort of gold sink.

As stated earlier, they will still sell gold, but at a lower price.

And as I said earlier, the gold selling problem can only be solved when there is, ahem, zero demand for it. Same tactic with buying parts from endangered species.

[TheJarulf]

If it is in fact this easy to buy gold, which is against Blizzard rules and terms of service, why can't Blizzard somehow sue these websites, or set up undercover sting operations with their characters to expose gold sellers and ban all of their related accounts.

You have to not mix up the websites and the accounts amd ,ore importantly, the person having an account and the person(s) having a website. AT the most, you can have the person seting up the account to follow the agreement and of course, can at the most take action against that person only. The website or even the people having the website has not (nessecarilly) made any similar agreement and thus can't for example break it. That is why it is very hard to do anything versus them, you would have to go for the actual persons/accounts.





As for a comment to the original post and by Blizzard offering gold for purchase, it would actually have a quite significant impact quite different from the case were people IN the game, trade gold between themselves (which is what we in fact have). Someone claimed there is unlimited gold on a server, but that is not true, all gold is introduced through game play in one way or another and there are obvious limits, if no other due to the cap on players on a server and in how quickly you can farm it. Realise, farmers (be it normal players or those that farm just for the farming and selling) does NOT create gold out of thin air or any extra gold, it is all gold from game play, although some have optimized it so they get far more gold per time unit than normal players.

Having Blizzard sell gold, it would of course be extra gold, created outside the normal game play and unless limited in some way, would truly create unlimited gold and even if limited in some way (such as max a certain ammount per player/account per time unit) would create far more and extra gold in the economy. The game is not set up for that so it won't work if for no other reason for that. So not a good idea.

[teck21]

'Having Blizzard sell gold, it would of course be extra gold, created outside the normal game play and unless limited in some way, would truly create unlimited gold'

That's true, and it would be just like Stones of Jordan in DiabloII. The way I see it, the Soulbinding system already keeps things under excellent control. Items get taken out of circulation very quickly, and hnce, the gold that was spent acquiring them, if they were acquired through gold that is.

Blizzard know what's going on, and I suspect they think they have got the situation under control, and I am inclined to agree. The whole gold buying situation has no noticeable negative effect on the casual player. Except for the gold buying casual, for whom the effect is of course poisitive. :)

And what's making prices go up as so many of you claim? Its the gold buyers. They make you unable to afford the most godly / uber items, or twink your low level characters because the gold buyers make it unaffordable for you. :)

Guess what, that's not the aim of most casual players, they play to have fun, they don't know what MC is, and many will never make their way there. Perhaps even myself. :) They don't know what godly items are, much less aspire to possess any of them.

What happens for them, is that they find something half useful, and sell, so that they can afford their mounts, and this makes their day. :) So gold buying/selling benefits them.

And casual players make up most of the subscriber base. Blizzard know this, and as far as I am concerned, they have done an excellent job of regulating the economy. After what happened with D2, if things don't start being magically created out of thin air without control, I am happy.

Blizzard are in it for the money, as is any corporation, and I think they are doing atremendous job balancing the Needs and Wants of different player groups.

And most people who complain about gold sellers making things unaffordable, I suspect you guys have too much time to spend playing WoW. :) Most people, mature adults who have full time jobs, often requiring long hours will take a much more forgiving attitude towards those who do choose to buy gold. Throw your hands up in indignation if you are one such adult who screams injustice because of gold sellers and buyers, but you would most certainly not be the voice of the majority.

Alot of these casual players haven't got time to accumulate gold to purchase their mounts, and not having one is no fun at all. :) So some of them purchase gold as is to be expected.

Tell them its not fair that they should buy gold to get ahead, tell them that you have a greater right to enjoy the game than they do.

The large number of people here screaming about gold buyers is in no way representative of the WoW community, most of the WoW community have never heard of this forum, and will never come here. Thottbot to find out how to do a quest is the extent of their WoW experience outside the game itself

[Mincemaker]

'Having Blizzard sell gold, it would of course be extra gold, created outside the normal game play and unless limited in some way, would truly create unlimited gold'

That's true, and it would be just like Stones of Jordan in DiabloII. The way I see it, the Soulbinding system already keeps things under excellent control. Items get taken out of circulation very quickly, and hnce, the gold that was spent acquiring them, if they were acquired through gold that is.

Blizzard know what's going on, and I suspect they think they have got the situation under control, and I am inclined to agree. The whole gold buying situation has no noticeable negative effect on the casual player. Except for the gold buying casual, for whom the effect is of course poisitive. :)

And what's making prices go up as so many of you claim? Its the gold buyers. They make you unable to afford the most godly / uber items, or twink your low level characters because the gold buyers make it unaffordable for you. :)

Guess what, that's not the aim of most casual players, they play to have fun, they don't know what MC is, and many will never make their way there. Perhaps even myself. :) They don't know what godly items are, much less aspire to possess any of them.

What happens for them, is that they find something half useful, and sell, so that they can afford their mounts, and this makes their day. :) So gold buying/selling benefits them.

And casual players make up most of the subscriber base. Blizzard know this, and as far as I am concerned, they have done an excellent job of regulating the economy. After what happened with D2, if things don't start being magically created out of thin air without control, I am happy.

Blizzard are in it for the money, as is any corporation, and I think they are doing atremendous job balancing the Needs and Wants of different player groups.

And most people who complain about gold sellers making things unaffordable, I suspect you guys have too much time to spend playing WoW. :) Most people, mature adults who have full time jobs, often requiring long hours will take a much more forgiving attitude towards those who do choose to buy gold. Throw your hands up in indignation if you are one such adult who screams injustice because of gold sellers and buyers, but you would most certainly not be the voice of the majority.

Alot of these casual players haven't got time to accumulate gold to purchase their mounts, and not having one is no fun at all. :) So some of them purchase gold as is to be expected.

Tell them its not fair that they should buy gold to get ahead, tell them that you have a greater right to enjoy the game than they do.

The large number of people here screaming about gold buyers is in no way representative of the WoW community, most of the WoW community have never heard of this forum, and will never come here. Thottbot to find out how to do a quest is the extent of their WoW experience outside the game itself

I had a life outside WoW and I don't play all that often. And I will still scream injustice. And stupidity. I always view that the most one should spend on an MMO is on the guides, expansions and the monthly fees, not using real world money to buy ingame gold, which you won't be using to buy things in the real world. I prefer to set a boundary between game and real life, and I'm not willing to confuse that line and go and try to make myself better off ingame while sacrificing my welfare in real life.

Monthly fees, expansions and the occasional guides. Not spending another cent on the game.

[illogik]

Just trying to think this through:

The economic problem caused by gold sellers is essentially a flood of gold on a server, resulting in inflated prices and a skewed economy etc. That's what i have understood from this thread so far.

However, in theory theres is no limit to how much gold could exist on a server legitimately. Imagine if all the players farmed for ages, maybe some even gave away gold for nothing when they had so much. This leads to a very wealthy in-game population, which is surely the same effect everyone is worried about when complaining about gold sellers.

So if all the gold sellers are doing is to engineer a situation that is perfectly possible to happen legally, surely its up to the design of the game's economy to ensure prices dont get out of hand?

I'm not going to factor in the arguments about a sense of achievement, or fair play etc here, what i am hoping is that blizzard have designed the game well enough that it doesnt self-destruct when too much gold enters the system, and it seems so far that they have. Can anyone complain yet that too much gold in their server is spoiling their enjoyment? It would be interesting to know.

Would hard-working players who ammassed huge amounts of gold ruin the game the same way as gold buyers?

[Ryste]

I had a life outside WoW and I don't play all that often. And I will still scream injustice. And stupidity. I always view that the most one should spend on an MMO is on the guides, expansions and the monthly fees, not using real world money to buy ingame gold, which you won't be using to buy things in the real world. I prefer to set a boundary between game and real life, and I'm not willing to confuse that line and go and try to make myself better off ingame while sacrificing my welfare in real life.

Monthly fees, expansions and the occasional guides. Not spending another cent on the game.

I love it when people start their posts with "I had a life outside WoW...".

Great, you are the only one, nobody else. Really, everyone else lives inside their house 24/7.

Instead of spending $19.99 for a guide, I spent $19.99 on gold. At this point, we both spent the same amount of money on "something" to enhance our gaming experience. You have your guide, I have my gold. Everyone's happy.

Stupidity is defined by one's narrow point of view on how things are supposed to work and force it down other's throat.

[ArcaneOne]

Exactly what I was saying that there is unlimited gold on each server. If I go farm for hours and hours and I make 1,000,000g it would have the same effect to the economy as if I spent 5 minutes and bought the 1,000,000g.

What effect would it have on the forums? Probably the same as all the billions of other spam floating around the Internet. The postings are done out of desperation and yes the webmasters will have to work on keeping it clean just like we report them.

Bottom line: People that complain about gold buyers are the same people that have no idea how to manage their money in-game. I make money with low prices and I make money with high prices. Makes no difference. Buy all the gold you want and make me rich.:azn:

[HobJoe]

Balances...
Its a strange way to approach this fiasco but here goes...
Since gold sellers are going nowhere fast(as is this thread), then we have to think about how it all balances. Buying gold is against the rules, and a bannable offense at that. However buyers and sellers will continue to co-exist with us. The rules keep it from getting out of control while the dynamic market for it keeps it going. So there is a profound effect created much like(as stated by another) drug trafficing. Theres always going to be buyers and sellers, and theres always going to be accounts getting banned(or people in jail what have you). To take it any further than that is nonsense. Its perfectly balanced the way it is, and blizzard wont let it get out of control. To say they should sell it, or sue the people selling, or sue the people buying is all nonsense. Bans are a powerful enough tool to keep it under control.

BTW: I know this issue has been discussed in abundance just as every topic in these forums. BUT not everyone has voiced their opinions, or asked their questions regarding this matter(or the other ones). As the membership grows on a daily basis, its important not to exclude members from discussing an old issue just because some of you have talked about it a million times. So the fact that this or any other topic has been brought up a million times is irrelevant to the new users that deserve to be heard as well. And I dont mean this topic specifically, I mean all topics. Nobody searches through the 8000 pages of threads and reads them all. Just my opinion.

[Hateblade]

I have 2 Librams of Rapidity up on my AH right now for 1000g and 900g.

Those are outrageous prices. BUT, someone may buy them. Hopefully not, but you never can tell. Whether or not that person who may buy one bought gold or not is irrelevant. It's the fact that a highly sought out item was put up for that price.

IMO, the purchase of gold is not the larger problem here. It's people's greed. The act of selling gold only facilitates that human emotion. People want the best, and in-game money is the way to get some of that. For some people, it doesn't matter the cost to be the "best".

So, if you really want to stop the "economy" crap, and the "gold-selling" crap, take a look at the crazy prices people are charging for some of the stuff in this game. I personally see that skewing the "economy" way more than someone getting xxxg for xxx amount of RL money.

Just my 2c.

P.S. Sure as heck doesn't mean we won't sic Fluffy on them dirty gold sellers here though. :grin:

[brandondash]

Why not go to the official forums and let the rest of us have our nice little safe haven??

Because I enjoy reading your posts
Because websense hasn't blocked this forum yet. :grin:


... and the thought of spending RL money on virtual items makes me lol.

[brandondash]

Exactly what I was saying that there is unlimited gold on each server. If I go farm for hours and hours and I make 1,000,000g it would have the same effect to the economy as if I spent 5 minutes and bought the 1,000,000g.
That's not true at all, because somebody else had to spend your "hours and hours" getting the gold to give to you. The effect on the economy is exactly 0. The only difference is you will probably spend the new gold you have, and the other guy was holding onto his. Again, that isn't any different from the way the game is played now. There are plenty of people with thousands of gold they simply do not spend. If they all choose to spend it nothing really changes.

brandon-

[ArcaneOne]

That's not true at all, because somebody else had to spend your "hours and hours" getting the gold to give to you. The effect on the economy is exactly 0. The only difference is you will probably spend the new gold you have, and the other guy was holding onto his. Again, that isn't any different from the way the game is played now. There are plenty of people with thousands of gold they simply do not spend. If they all choose to spend it nothing really changes.

brandon-
Sorry Brandon, thought I implied it, but let me try that again. If I farm 1b gold or buy it and then go spend it....in either case it has the same effect on the economy.

BTW: I know this issue has been discussed in abundance just as every topic in these forums. BUT not everyone has voiced their opinions, or asked their questions regarding this matter(or the other ones). As the membership grows on a daily basis, its important not to exclude members from discussing an old issue just because some of you have talked about it a million times. So the fact that this or any other topic has been brought up a million times is irrelevant to the new users that deserve to be heard as well. And I dont mean this topic specifically, I mean all topics. Nobody searches through the 8000 pages of threads and reads them all. Just my opinion.
People, myself very much included, complain about this being an old issue because we have already done the 15+ pages of rants and compaints and nickpicking and realized that it doesnt change anything. Your posts will not magically drive gold sellers away and your posts will not change the way Blizz handles them. We realized this last Gold Seller threads. So learn to play with them in effect 'cause their not going anywhere.

Better title...How to cope from an inflated AH or Gold management in an inflated economy.

[HobJoe]

7 pages..not bad but I'm sure its no record

[chelate]

This would work to put the gold sellers out of business. They pay their employees crap but even then its a thin profit margin. If they had to cut back prices they would be hard pressed to survive.

However this obviously would not stop the selling of gold.

I personally don't really care about people buying or selling gold. It gets you nothing but a quick fix at a low level. Anything high level worth having is many hundreds of gold and the amount of people willing to shell out 90 real dollars for an epic mount is, well, much lower than a kid using his allowance to get 100 gold so he can get some nice gear.

It obviously raises the average gear (assuming a noticible amount of people do it) but that is not a problem. I'm sure snow days increase the average loot of a WoWer as the majority of the kiddies playing will have nothing else to do for a whole day.

Over all I dont care about farmers unless they're farming an area I want. Anyone who buys gold is just fooling themselves into making the game "easier", it hardly helps at high levels unless you put a lot of real money into it (and if you do I can just laugh at you that you can't think of anything better to do with more than pocket change), and it really doesn't affect the WoW world.

[chelate]

Better title...How to cope from an inflated AH or Gold management in an inflated economy.

You are implying that there are a large number of people buying large amounts of gold on a regular basis. This isn't true. Are there people who do that, of course. But for it to be an actual impact on the economy, a large amount of people would have to do it fairly often, often enough that the random bored buyers who list things at higher prices than market value suddenly notice that nobody cares the prices went up...

WoW isn't a real life economic system as there is no real life influence and the only supply to be considered is people being lucky. Last night I wanted to get a fiery enchant and there were zero Essence of Fires on the AH. Not a single one. Yet stacks of Undeath sell for < 10g. There were pages of Air. Bit later I checked and there were 3 EoFs listed, at the normal price for my server. It's not that every EoF was bought out in a rush, it was that people didn't bother to go farm them for selling/get lucky and get some. Hence, you cannot apply real life inflation logic to the WoW economy!

The only inflation of my server's economy was when 1.9 came and there was a huge rush to get AQ done. The prices of all turn-in-ables exploded. Stacks of linen were going for 2,3g each. I don't even want to think how much Copper was.

[PandaAbuse]

ZOMFG. This gives me an idea. We can stop all of the power levelers. JUST BAN EVERYBODY ON ALL SERVERS. That should stop it! Right?

[Hydro]

I would be pretty happy with this change to be honest.
Full repairs cost me anywhere from 20-30 gold, sprit resses cost me 150-180 gold, and farming for it just is not something I enjoy doing, especially since quite a few deaths are caused by Blizzard being horrible at testing new content.
Either way, Gold farmers won't go away, but this really isn't a game where they can truly effect your gameplay or give someone else the upper hand.

[Mydienon]

In a single player game, cheating isn't an issue--if I hack my characters to have max stats and infinite gold, it doesn't hurt anyone. It's how I choose to play the game. If I play Diablo 2 and want to see what it's like to play a level 99 Necro with perfect gear, the only time-efficient way to do it is to hack. Who wants to spend a year of gaming time in exchange for a few minutes of experimenting with some "uber build"?

In any game where other people are involved, that is when hacking for ultimate stats, ultimate gear, and infinite gold becomes a problem. Blizzard has, this time around, been fairly good at keeping hacking to a minimum. But gold-buying remains a problem; any character is "allowed" to farm gold (who hasn't, one time or another)? Therefore, identifying players who farm for in-game financial resources versus players who farm for real-world profit is somewhat difficult.

Back to buying gold. I can understand why people would want to do it, too. Due to my playing schedule, it'll be another year before I ever have the opportunity to try any high-end instance (and I may *never* be able to do it, since I don't have the time to put in to make any guild interested in me). But in a multi-player game, if I and others simply bought the characters, items, and gold necessary...

A multiplayer game ceases to be a game when players are playing under different rules. If *everyone* has infinite gold, then gold becomes meaningless and everyone can have fun simply trying to collect rare items and leveling; the auction houses die, every character has a mount as soon as it's available, and all in-game vendors are simply places to pick up free stuff. Bartering becomes the only way to diversify your gear (I'll trade my epic for your epic) because selling for gold is useless.

If *no one* has infinite gold, then gold becomes a commodity and the auction houses remain a legitimate source of fun in the game, gold remains an objective in and of itself for adventuring, and the thrill of being able to afford that mount or that high-end item remains. This is the system Blizzard envisions, or claims to envision.

However, currently the situation is mixed--a growing percentage of casual gamers buy their gold in the real world, and a shrinking percentage do not. An unbalanced game becomes no fun for the disadvantaged players, and it is the players who refuse to buy e-gold with real world money who are disadvantaged. In other words, the people who bought the game and believed the Blizzard rhetoric are then forced to watch casual gamers who buy gold enjoy all the level 60+ content. That's a difficult pill to swallow, and so these players leave.

Solutions? If Blizzard sells gold, then it becomes an "everyone has gold" game. They have to redesign the entire economic system of the game, and fight a real-life class action lawsuit or three. Not likely to happen in my opinion.

If Blizzard enforces a draconian punishment system to catch and ban gold farmers and/or buyers, then they might accidently punish a few legitimate players who simply want to get rich in the game. I would like to see them implement such a policy, but allow for some kind of review for players to try and fight against a ban on a case-by-case basis. Allow accounts in limbo to continue playing, but limit their ability to send and receive gold.

Another idea? Provide a single-player version of the game. It would be lonely. It would be no fun compared to other single-player CRPGs. It wouldn't compete with WoW because people play WoW for the multiplayer experience. And, it would allow people to create any character they want, at any level, and with any gear, to experiment with to their heart's content without hurting anyone else. Think of it as a training ground, or something to do while the servers are offline.

(Incidentally, hacked single-player versions of the game do exist).

It remains that some people will buy gold (and, as other cheats and hacks come available, will buy or use those). These are people who want an advantage over other, legitimate players in the game, and can be safely identified as cheaters. In my opinion, they should be banned along with anyone identified as a gold farming business. Yes, punish the junkies as well as the pushers. As long as Blizzard refuses to deal with the problem, and in fact allows it to grow, then they shorten the life of the game--and that is bad for profits.

Consider this...who plays Diablo 2 online anymore? It's the people with dupes and hacks, because that is the only market that exists (all the legitimate players left). Who else plays D2? Legitimate players who set up private games with people they know who are also legitimate players.

There is only one game in WoW, and that is the public version. If Blizzard doesn't fix the gold buying problem, then they will lose their market of legitimate players. We'll all go and play a different game. It won't drive Blizzard out of business, but it will certainly change the nature of WoW as they seek to please the l337 crowd.

--Mydienon

EDIT: For those who say, "it's not a problem" or "if it ain't broke..." -- you're right, now. But any forward-looking business should realize that a problem like this is damage over time. If Blizzard doesn't identify and react to the problem, and instead simply hides their collective heads in the sand, then the problem will explode. Not today, not tomorrow, but eventually.

[chelate]

I would be pretty happy with this change to be honest.
Full repairs cost me anywhere from 20-30 gold, sprit resses cost me 150-180 gold, and farming for it just is not something I enjoy doing, especially since quite a few deaths are caused by Blizzard being horrible at testing new content.
Either way, Gold farmers won't go away, but this really isn't a game where they can truly effect your gameplay or give someone else the upper hand.


How true, a few times I have said "Blizzard should be paying for my repairs because they can't properly run a server" :p

[SURFEROSA]

Sorry Brandon, thought I implied it, but let me try that again. If I farm 1b gold or buy it and then go spend it....in either case it has the same effect on the economy.
Not quite. The significant increase in speed at which this money supply is released into the economy (via massive productivity increases caused by gold-sellers 24 hour farming) and the net reduction in taxes (via a reduction in the farmers using the games natural money sinks) both combine to increased inflationary pressure. This, in the long term, leads to higher prices then if you had simply farmed for an hour (1g bought v 1g farmed).

Youv'e forgotten, weve been here before :smiley:

People, myself very much included, complain about this being an old issue because we have already done the 15+ pages of rants and compaints and nickpicking and realized that it doesnt change anything.
Better title...How to cope from an inflated AH or Gold management in an inflated economy.
OK, so you havent fogotten :grin: And I agree, its getting old, but this type of post keeps it going;

You are implying that there are a large number of people buying large amounts of gold on a regular basis. This isn't true. Are there people who do that, of course. But for it to be an actual impact on the economy, a large amount of people would have to do it fairly often, often enough that the random bored buyers who list things at higher prices than market value suddenly notice that nobody cares the prices went up...

WoW isn't a real life economic system as there is no real life influence and the only supply to be considered is people being lucky. Last night I wanted to get a fiery enchant and there were zero Essence of Fires on the AH. Not a single one. Yet stacks of Undeath sell for < 10g. There were pages of Air. Bit later I checked and there were 3 EoFs listed, at the normal price for my server. It's not that every EoF was bought out in a rush, it was that people didn't bother to go farm them for selling/get lucky and get some. Hence, you cannot apply real life inflation logic to the WoW economy!

The only inflation of my server's economy was when 1.9 came and there was a huge rush to get AQ done. The prices of all turn-in-ables exploded. Stacks of linen were going for 2,3g each. I don't even want to think how much Copper was.

It do not know where to begin in picking the holes in this piece of economic analysis. Micro / macro theory, emperical / anecdotal evdience. All thrown together without any prescise understanding of the subject matter. Clearly fails to appreciate the theory of market efficiency. And the conclusion in the final paragraph seems to undermine everything else in the post.

Very poor, must try harder. D-

[zaxxon23]

The day that Blizzard sells gold is the day that the gold farmers, anti-ebayers AND ebay supporters (such as myself) will certainly look for greener pastures.

I find it amazing that you would rather have Blizzard sell gold then yourself. It is truly the most retarded thing I have ever heard.

Also, whoever the admin is from the site who put a link for this post on the front page, know that PLAYERS sell stuff in EQ2. NOT SOE.

It's pretty sad that an admin of an MMO fan site is completely uneducated about how Station Exchange works.

[Mydienon]

Some thoughts...

A true economy is one in which there are fixed resources. Oil is valuable in RL because there is a limited supply. People, another type of resource, are a renewable resource in real life--but it takes time. In WoW, most creatures "respawn" after a certain number of seconds. When they respawn, they automatically have money and items. There is no fixed resource--it is statistically possible for every creature in the game of a certain level to spawn with exactly the same item. In effect, you have unlimited creatures (they will constantly respawn; the more you kill, the more respawn and exist to be killed). Therefore, you have unlimited gold and items--more mobs killed=more items and gold generated.

Those of you arguing that the game itself provides legitimacy for "farming" are right. If people in real life could get oil by simply sucking it out of the ground, and it would automatically replenish every few seconds, then no one would fight over it.

So, any thoughts on whether a legitimate economy should or could be created? What if only a certain number of each item could ever exist on a given server, and after that number was reached, no more of that item could appear on a mob? What if there was a fixed amount of gold in the game, so that the total amount on mobs and in character inventories remained static? People spend gold on resurrections and AH fees and mounts, etc; this gold then appears on mobs which must be farmed in order to buy more resurrections and pay more fees, etc, etc...

A supply-and-demand economy wouldn't fix the gold buying, but it would add an interesting dynamic to the game. It would also lock out a lot of items so only hardcore gamers could ever get them. I would be against it, and I think Blizzard is intent on never doing it. However, for those of you talking about "ruining the WoW economy" as if an economy that mirrors real life actually exists...

Part of finding a solution is identifying the problem. Is gold farming the problem? Or is it the lack of economic reality that creates a virtual world destined for uncontrollable inflation? Even if *every* gold-farming operation was permanently shut down, eventually enough legitimate players spending enough time would cause the same result.

I guess it comes down to the lifetime of the game. Gold farming shortens the game's lifetime for legitimate players. But the game is already destined for failure in the long run, because eventually a better game with better technology will replace it. Blizzard has smart business people getting paid big salaries (in RL amounts) to make smart business decisions. If they simply ban any huge farming operations and major hacks, but ignore others, they shorten the game's lifetime...but they also reduce their costs, and a majority of players won't care. If they time it correctly, the game will die an in-game economic death at the same time it dies a technological and conceptual death. Most players will leave, and Blizzard will move it's WoW resources to the next big project.

--Mydienon

[davejustdave]

A few points:

-Blizzard has already acknowledged that the game cannot be played fairly by those who don't "live on it". Why else would people get the 200% xp bonus whennot playing every day.

-I think Blizzard turns a blind eye to it because ultimately it fuels the game. Last I checked you still can't buy most Epics or any Legendary, so there's only so much buying gold can do. BUT many people odn't have the hours it takes to buy your first mount; and let's face it the first time you try (before you start funding other toons with you high level ones) it is a pain.

-Some people just don't have the time to invest in the game that oters do but still want to enjoy it and be competitive; this sould be more a priority to fixing for Blizzard. I work 50 hours a week and can't compete many times with 15 year olds that spend hours a day playing Wearing all epic equipment.

-And lastly, the easiest fix (and I haven't read the whole thread so excuse me if I'm echoing someone) is to put caps on what you can sell something for. I.E. scalping. IMO gold buying is fueled by the AH, period. If people weren't charging overpriced amounts for items people wouldn't need that quick 500g to buy from a farmer. Also they could make the in game venders sell more competitive equipment...no one barely even uses them after level 20 so why not make a line of competitve equipment that doesn't cost a ton of gold or that you spend 50 hours playing. I'm level 50 and don't know how or where I will find the time to go on 40 man raids...I love the game but I just don't have the time some players do.

Remember eveyone pays the same monthly price to play as others so equitability is the key to fixing the framing situation. The reality is the gap between hardcore and casual players is fueling this problem and should be addressed.

[maronzo]

Anybody who has played the high level areas knows all too well how hard it is to get things like Felcloth, etc. because of the gold farmers. I really don't care if people farm to sell gold, but it does make it much harder for legit players to farm what they need for their chars.

Blizzard is not going to stop the farmers. I really don't see how they can legally. If so, they would have done so by now. So they definitely need to do something to alleviate the problems caused by the gold farmers.

Increasing the drop rates of items or areas for farming trade goods, etc. that farmers concentrate on would certainly be good options in my mind.

I'm just sick and tired of wasting time going to places like Azshara, etc. to farm things for my chars only to have to compete with gold farmers for kills.

[Jiff]

Know why nobody plays Everquest 2? because sony sells items for real money.

That's an interesting fact I didn't know about EQ2 to add to my other list of reasons why I don't play it:

*Too much emphasis on party questing (hard to solo)
*Clunky interface
*Clunky combat
and now
*Anybody with a credit card can have an epic item, cheapening the value for the rest of the players who 'earn' it in-game.

[ArcaneOne]

Not quite. The significant increase in speed at which this money supply is released into the economy (via massive productivity increases caused by gold-sellers 24 hour farming) and the net reduction in taxes (via a reduction in the farmers using the games natural money sinks) both combine to increased inflationa....
I cant say I agree 100%, but I think we all realize that no matter how much we debate the details it will not change the fact that they are here and will continue to be here and no matter how many pages of debates, empyrical formulas, economical analysis and such will not change the situation.

I hate gold sellers, I hate spam, I hate slow drivers on the left lane. Just got to learn to live with it. :undecided:

New topic>>> How to put Gold Sellers out of Business!!(discuss)

ps. had to add the (discuss) for kcma, he loves that :wink:

[Mydienon]

davejustdave--

Gold farmers are businesses, too. They buy all of certain items on the AH, then turn around and sell it for higher prices. They have the gold to do this because they hire people to farm 24 hours a day. Players who want to buy the items then see the prices (which are fixed by the gold farm businesses). In order to buy the items, they send real money to the gold farm businesses, and use the electronic gold to buy the items...from...the gold farm businesses.

See the loop? The gold farm businesses get paid twice; in real money and in WoW gold. In effect, they are earning money without providing any product or service at all--most of what they give is given right back to them, and the rest is made up by the continuous mob-farming.

Putting caps at the AH would simply mean every item would be sold for that price, therby ending the concept of "auction".

I do agree with your idea of selling competitive equipment from vendors. But then, players who simply want to play aren't worried about buying the best gear ever. My low-level characters never buy equipment from vendors, simply because it doesn't bring the satisfaction of finding it myself or making it myself through professions.

[zaxxon23]

Know why nobody plays Everquest 2? because sony sells items for real money.

Damn you ignorant fools. EQ2 PLAYERS sell items, NOT SOE!!

Know what the heck you're talking about before opening your ignorant trap.

[chelate]

I guess it comes down to the lifetime of the game. Gold farming shortens the game's lifetime for legitimate players. But the game is already destined for failure in the long run, because eventually a better game with better technology will replace it. Blizzard has smart business people getting paid big salaries (in RL amounts) to make smart business decisions. If they simply ban any huge farming operations and major hacks, but ignore others, they shorten the game's lifetime...but they also reduce their costs, and a majority of players won't care. If they time it correctly, the game will die an in-game economic death at the same time it dies a technological and conceptual death. Most players will leave, and Blizzard will move it's WoW resources to the next big project.

I disagree.

Gold farming only really ruins it for those who pay for their gold. Every other player does not have the game cut short for them.

(This is going to state obvious facts but I want people to follow my train of thought)

You make gold by selling items, whether good items in an AH or grays to a vendor. You find these items by killing mobs over and over again until you can't see the screen or your bag is full. This involves minimal effort but involves TIME. Blizzard put this element into the game so people would have something to do. It is part of the gameplay. This is the same reason that not every mob drops all the gray parts they can (apparantly some pigs DON'T have snouts). If they did, then you would have to farm your gold for shorter periods of time.

Now I'm not saying Blizz added tedium to the game to try to make it fun. The limited resources and having to work for things is what makes a game fun and is what basically draws out the game. If all spells were instant cast one hit kill and used no mana, what would be the fun in fighting? If you had unlimited gold and a fully stocked AH, what would be the fun of buying items? You'd have everything instantly and once you hit 60 what are you doing with the game (assuming you don't even get bored before then). Limits add challenge, challenge adds fun. Gold farming relates to this because it removes challenge from the game for the people who buy the gold. So they can go and get their quick fix (of which I've said a few times and nobody's addressed, basically, gold gets you crap. Sure you can get a Lionheart if you see one with your $70-90 worth of gold, go ahead blow a full paycheck buy all the best BOEs. The reason items are BOP is so you CAN'T just buy them and you MUST challenge the dungeons for them.) but it cuts the game short for THEM.

And I just have to say it one more time because nobody is addressing it, who cares if some kids are buying gold? So mommy funds their char and they can afford to twink out at every level. They probably still suck at the game and would lose PVP. I bet not a single person on any of the PVP listings Blizz puts up on their website (what's that, top 400 or something?) buys any amount of gold to matter (I'm sure a few have/do but not a twink-every-level situation). The top 100 sure as hell don't. And again the gold does not get you endgame top tier items. Let them get their crappy BOEs. I don't care. I will go and dungeon all I want to and get much better stuff and laugh at them as I cover my naked body in the cash they don't have.

[chelate]

It do not know where to begin in picking the holes in this piece of economic analysis. Micro / macro theory, emperical / anecdotal evdience. All thrown together without any prescise understanding of the subject matter. Clearly fails to appreciate the theory of market efficiency. And the conclusion in the final paragraph seems to undermine everything else in the post.

Very poor, must try harder. D-

You sure showed me with your...um...yeh. CG I suppose on not even bothering to make a point?

[Karr]

The economy is already screwed because people can buy 1000g for $30, how is this going to fix it? If Blizzard sells the gold for cheaper the economy will just get worse, so the people need to spend $$ on gold just to remain competitive in the game.

To catch gold sellers Blizzard needs to put there money where there mouth is and start purchasing from online sellers so that they can catch them in the act. They could also put a hard limit on the amount of Gold one can send to a non Guild Member for example, which would allow them to ban entire guilds obviously dedicated to Gold farming. Real banks already use these methods to stop fraud, so it isn't brain surgery!!!

[Mydienon]

chelate...

good point.

So, in your view, there is no problem and so there is nothing that needs fixing. At least from a gold-buying perspective.

I can't argue with your logic, so I won't bother. I still hold the *opinion* that a game should be designed where skill (and luck), rather than financial resources, are the true measure of a player's ability. It seems you already feel that the game rewards skill more than any amount of gold other people might buy. In my opinion, the rewards for buying gold are too significant and the penalties for doing so are too light.

Since I have neither the skill, nor the gold, nor the time to ever be one of the top 400 players, I have no grounds for arguing about high-end dungeon rewards. And you're absolutely right--no amount of gold anyone else buys will ever make me go out and buy gold.

------

On the other hand, what about gold-farming? I mean, as a business with real world profits? Is *that* a problem Blizzard should try to fix? Should they ignore it completely? Or should they maintain their current lax attitude of occasionally banning the most significant offenders?


--Mydienon

[SURFEROSA]

A true economy is one in which there are fixed resources. Oil is valuable in RL because there is a limited supply.
Not true. An economy is simply the definition that exists to define the allocation of scarce resources between related consumption and production activites.

Whether these resources are 'fixed' (your words, not mine) or plentiful is described as the elasticity of supply (how suppliers can increase their output dependent upon price). People can go farm copper (elactistic supply), or try for that epic drop once in 1000 kills epic (inelastic). How these resources are allocated are dependent upon the AH price. Therefore it is an economy.

There is no fixed resource--it is statistically possible for every creature in the game of a certain level to spawn with exactly the same item. In effect, you have unlimited creatures (they will constantly respawn; the more you kill, the more respawn and exist to be killed). Therefore, you have unlimited gold and items--more mobs killed=more items and gold generated.
Not true. Some people will have different ways of making money (other than grinding). I play the AH's with an alt. Some gather mats. Ultimately, if the price of copper rose to 100g per stack, I'd go farm some. If it fell to 1s per stack, I wouldn't sell, Id hold on to it. This consumer / producer behavior mirrors what happens in RL.

So, any thoughts on whether a legitimate economy should or could be created? What if only a certain number of each item could ever exist on a given server, and after that number was reached, no more of that item could appear on a mob?
Well, apart your definition of a 'legitimate' ecomnomy being incorrect (what you actually describe is one where the supply of money is fixed at specific level.. for arguments sake a closed economy), this is an interesting economic scenario. It would, however, be disasterous. In a closed economy (where wealth ie gold could not created by grinding unless it was used first), the efficiency of gold-farmers is such that they would quickly gather the largest volumes of wealth. As previously discussed, gold farmers dont play the game as a usual player; they dont use as many of the games money-sinks (repair bills, consumables, professions, skills, etc). Therefore all that this policy would achieve would be making the gold they hold & collect more 'valuable' (as less gold proportionatally would be released back into the economy). The price of black-market gold would soar. And, the end result would be that a vast majority of all gold consumed would be bought from a farmer.

Part of finding a solution is identifying the problem. Is gold farming the problem? Or is it the lack of economic reality that creates a virtual world destined for uncontrollable inflation?
I, for one, am still ensure as what the problem here is. Gold-sellers create inflationery pressure. Inflationery pressure will, in the long term, lead to higher prices. However, I have previously argued that this is largely irrelvant as the mechanics of the game diminish the importance of gold the higher level you get.

New topic>>> How to put Gold Sellers out of Business!!(discuss)
But, if you really want to get rid of gold-sellers, introduce more mechanisms that already exist. More items that can not be sold (BOP items, professions, etc). More transparency of those punished for buying and the consequences they have incurred. In other words, make the use of gold at higher levels less important, and have greater punishment for those that get caught.

And if you want to be really radical, introduce a money market. Where gold can be loaned and borrowed. Having an alternative mechanism available to gaining instant gold would provide another reason to not use a gold-seller.

This could use a mechanism of equity guarantee; place certain items in a bond status where they could not be traded or detsroyed until a loan had been repaid. It could be done, but I forsee huge issues in the mechanics of all this working. And the complexities involved in designing such a system are not the best way Blizz could spend their development time. Especially for a problem that has very little impact on the game. Therefore, I dont see the point

Nothing can be done to eliminate gold-selling without introducing an ingame legal market for gold. And, as has been mentioned above^^, I really doubt whether that would be a good thing or is actually needed.

PS

You sure showed me with your...um...yeh. CG I suppose on not even bothering to make a point?
Apologies for being dismissive: I didnt want to explain it all again. Explained here:
http://forums.worldofwar.net/showthread.php?t=362301&page=5&highlight=inflation

[HobJoe]

9 pages and counting.....

[Mydienon]

Surferosa--

"true economy" = poor choice of words in my post

"legitimate economy" = even poorer choice of words in my post

I should not try to oversimplify to the point of inaccuracy.

If I may, let me retract my "true economy" definition and "legitimate economy" word choice. I stand by my example, and the intent of my post: When consumption exceeds supply, value increases.

Also, I stand by my statement of "no fixed resource." You suggest that time, number of players, and play style limits the maximum amount of gold that can possibly exist. Okay, but that's not the point. My point is that there is no dwindling supply. Yes, there are "gold sinks" in the game; but money may be generated on nearly every creature spawned, and the number of creatures that can spawn is theoretically infinite; in practice, limited by the number of creatures killed.

Over time, gold and items will increase, and the average wealth of characters will increase. Because, the supply of the resource on which the WoW economy exists (gold) never diminishes.

The business of Gold Farming makes the average wealth of characters increase faster than would otherwise occur.

To HobJoe:
Yes, we're beating a dead epic mount in this thread. But I'm new on these forums, and a few others commenting in this thread are new. Someone earlier said that the new forum members have just as much right to beat this topic into the ground as the older forum members... :-)

[Admin Team]

How do you know for sure some of the top gold sellers are not biz?

[Valas Azuviir]

This is the same reason that not every mob drops all the gray parts they can (apparantly some pigs DON'T have snouts). If they did, then you would have to farm your gold for shorter periods of time.


I think the argument can be made, not every pig has usuable snouts. If, you need one fully intact for whatever reason.. Well. Combat is messy: burns, claw marks, results of weapon play etc.

Could very well mean that the item you're seeking after is too damaged to be useful.


Also, whoever the admin is from the site who put a link for this post on the front page, know that PLAYERS sell stuff in EQ2. NOT SOE.

It's pretty sad that an admin of an MMO fan site is completely uneducated about how Station Exchange works.

The main question is though, and that's the one that heavily taints the concept of the Station Exchange. Would SOE be ethical enough, not to create a dummy account/character with which to sell stuff, which they themselves can spawn anyway. This to further drive up their own profit margins.

Most people do not think that SOE would be ethical enough, afterall, they had folks buy an expansion only to nix about half of what said expansion brought to the game, about a month later, when they redesigned how the game worked. (SWG)

They also released an expansion, which was knowingly and purposely left bugged, because they weren't done yet with development, but weren't willing to delay its release until after they were done. (EQ1)

There's a reason why most folks do not write SOE, but $OE. Same reason why folks write Micro$oft, instead of Microsoft.

How do you know for sure some of the top gold sellers are not biz?

a) Matter of trust, thus far Blizzard has made enough noise to deflect any such thoughts.

b) The top gold sellers aren't just active in WoW, they're active across multiple games and very different genres. Thus again, giving the impression that Blizzard have nothing to do with this.

[jibbrish]

Damn you ignorant fools. EQ2 PLAYERS sell items, NOT SOE!!

Know what the heck you're talking about before opening your ignorant trap.


And Sony facilitates it, so what? SOE sucks and one of the reasons is their stand on gold selling.

[Hydro]

Also, I stand by my statement of "no fixed resource." You suggest that time, number of players, and play style limits the maximum amount of gold that can possibly exist. Okay, but that's not the point. My point is that there is no dwindling supply. Yes, there are "gold sinks" in the game; but money may be generated on nearly every creature spawned, and the number of creatures that can spawn is theoretically infinite; in practice, limited by the number of creatures killed

You vastly underestimate repair costs.
During a Nefarian a few days after our first Twin Emps kill someone linked a gold selling site that had a special on 1000 gold purchases (people had been *****ingabout repairs) and our raid group put the site out of business from sales in under 10 minutes. Almost all that gold is effectively "gone" from the economy now, as it will be recycled into the endless sink of items breaking.

[Mydienon]

Hydro, you have a point.

(sarcasm) Maybe the 1.10 patch is the intended new gold sink? I've had and heard about more lag-deaths and disconnect-deaths in the past week than an entire month, previously. I'm on dial-up, so I'm already used to it--but now it's quadrupled (unless I'm imagining it).

But seriously, you do have a real point. Some people pay real money for gold, items, power-leveling services, or whatever. They then have or can obtain better equipment. With better equipment and higher levels, they can go to the more lucrative instances, and get the best equipment. And when their really expensive, high-level characters with awesome equipment die...they have to pay much more for repairs than characters with less awesome equipment. So the people who payed real money must now pay even more real money in order to fix their equipment. And the circle is complete. So, who wins? The gold farmers--they're the only ones who got any profit. :-)

--Mydienon

[grex]

I agree with Mydienon. The game is simply designed (deliberately or not) to encourage this current economics.

Forming a judgement on gold buyer or sellers is simply not necessary. Doing so is simply an act of not respecting the fact that different groups would have different values. In this case, some people put more value their time spent levelling up; while others value their time saved (hence deriving more fun from instant gratification).

It fascinates me that mmorpg makes a great socialpolitical study. Despite the best of designers, real life issues keep creeping into the games.

But that's their problem. Perhaps we as players/citizens should just embrace and have fun.


GRex