Destroying myths: Armor disminishing returns

[triqui]

I think it has been debated here more than once (im sure ive done), but since lot of people still believe on it, and you often hear "X armor is crap for tanking, it has 2 less Def than Y armor, and although it has 200 more armor, armor means little couse of disminishing returns" etc.

I used to make the "going from 0 to 1% of DR gives you 1% more survival, while going from 98% to 99% doubles your survival" example, but i happened to find a much better, much clearer and much more mathematical aproach in a (shrug) druid forum.

The more armor you have, the less Damage Reduction you will gain from each point of armor you add. Let's investigate this idea by taking a look at the Damage Reduction formula:


Damage Reduction = Armor / (Armor + 85*level + 400)

http://www.worldofwar.net/guides/damagereduction.php

Now assuming that you're level 60, here's a chart showing how much of a difference adding 2750 armor will make in terms of damage reduction.


Armor Damage Reduction DR% Gained Armor Gained
0 0.00 %
2750 33.33 % +33.33 % +2750 Armor
5500 50.00 % +16.67 % +2750 Armor
8250 60.00 % +10.00 % +2750 Armor
11000 66.67 % +6.67 % +2750 Armor
13750 71.43 % +4.76 % +2750 Armor
16500 75.00 % +3.57 % +2750 Armor


So with the same exact increase in armor, we can clearly see that the Damage Reduction gained is less and less and less for the more armor you have.

BUT! Let's not wrap this up just yet! Let's take this hypothetical situation:

Say you have 1000 hitpoints and you're fighting a mob that hits for 100 every second. Knowing how much armor gives a certain damage reduction, we can then figure out how much DPS the mob will actually be doing by simply subtracting 100 - DR%, since it's a simple 100 DPS. Then we can find out how long you will live by dividing 1000 health by the incoming DPS. Here are the results:


Armor DR % Incoming DPS Time to Live Seconds of Life Gained
0 0.00 % 100.00 DPS 10 sec
2750 33.33 % 66.67 DPS 15 sec +5 sec of life
5500 50.00 % 50.00 DPS 20 sec +5 sec of life
8250 60.00 % 40.00 DPS 25 sec +5 sec of life
11000 66.67 % 33.33 DPS 30 sec +5 sec of life
13750 71.43 % 28.57 DPS 35 sec +5 sec of life
16500 75.00 % 25.00 DPS 40 sec +5 sec of life


Notice anything between the two charts? Even though the damage reduction % gained is less and less as we add 2750 armor, the time to live is increased by the same EXACT amount each time. And thus, while there certainly is diminishing returns on "Damage Reduction", there is absolutely no diminishing returns on armor itself :)

[Fleabag]

Ok first and foremost druid armor vs warrior armor arguments dont sync up. Apples and orenges here dude. After 8k armor it is ALWAYS better to focus on Def and mitigation for a tank. My tank has a 72% mitigation index (72% that the attack will miss, be parried, dodged, or blocked) blocks for over 220, and in def stance reduces all damage by 70%.

The same is not true of a druid. As druids dont have acess to block, or great access to high mitigation gear (other then dodge) you are forced to go the armor route. This is as intended as it is remarkably easy for a druid to break 10k armor, and just retarded for a warrior to make the gear sacrafices necisary to replicate the same feat.

Hands down past 8k armor for a warrior: mitigation > armor

Feral Druid: armor > mitigation (although stacking as much dodge, AP, and crit on your gear is preferable)

[triqui]

Will reply later, with a longer reply, but in short:

no.

Whatever def, dodge (druids have tons of this) or parry you have, 200 armor is as beneficial when you go from 6 to 6200 as it is when you go from 9000 to 9200.
Sure you dont should sacrifice 50 def to get 100 armor, but you should not sacrifice 200 armor to get 3 defense as well. Armor never lose its value.

[Fleabag]

Right, yet your looking at it from the perspecive of mathimatics alone. I however am looking at it from the perspective of someone geared fully both tier 1 tier 2 and all things in between.

As a tank, 8k armor is all you need, all else should be focused on mitigation. Ive had these arguments with many folks now, amazingly all of them are feral druids. You guys lack perspective.

Current wariror itemization doesnt make it viable to go past 8.5 k armor without making some HUGE sacrafices. Im not giving up my epic rings and trinkets to squese in another 1k armor... no way...

[Kyras]

I firmly suggest you quit being such a fleabag, (pun intended) and take a moment to realize that Triqui has been an EXTREMELY valuable poster on these (warrior) forums for some time now.

The tone your getting is nothing short of arrogant, and I can tell you that if someone asked anyone who isn't a 40-watt whose opinion they would value more:

random jerkoffA in Tier2, who apparently thinks because he can follow basic orders and commit large quantities of time to his avatar that somehow, his opinion really is worth more than a bag of ice to an eskimo;

Or Valuable posterA, who has taken much of his time to dispel wrong information and further increase the working awareness of warriors everywhere.

There really is an *extremely* simple method to prove someone wrong when they post math proofs. Post your own math proofs. To quote a wise man "conjecture never paid the rent".

Razumihim,
Dorf Priest

P.S. Triqui is a warrior, not a druid.

[triqui]

Right, yet your looking at it from the perspecive of mathimatics alone. I however am looking at it from the perspective of someone geared fully both tier 1 tier 2 and all things in between.
First, this is a computer game. Which means absolutely everything that happens in your screen is solved by a mathematical function in a computer algorithm. You might not believe in maths, but maths do not care, really... and everything your character does is still governed by maths.

Second Being in a sucessful raid guild does not make you right, sorry, i have met a ton of people with lots of epics who were horribly wrong. For example, ton of full wrath warriors who did spam Heroic strike more than Sunder (casting sunder just to keep the 5 debuff), when Sunder is better for threat, period. You might be right and i migth be wrong, but having more epics than me does not make you right, period. (just like if someone comes and have AQ gear he is not automatically right over you. ) You will need some better argument than that.


Ive had these arguments with many folks now, amazingly all of them are feral druids. You guys lack perspective. I dont have any druid of any level, and my main is a warrior. Yet i get convinced by facts. Maybe _you_ lack of perspective?

Current wariror itemization doesnt make it viable to go past 8.5 k armor without making some HUGE sacrafices. Im not giving up my epic rings and trinkets to squese in another 1k armor... no way...

And exactly this is my point. Lot of warrior "believe" in that with as much faith as you do, yet they have nothing to back up it except his own faith. Im going to put you an easy example: which pauldrons are better for tanking? Might pauldron or draketalon pauldrons? 90% of the warriors will say Might without any doubt (and without any thought also) becouse they see the shiny "+5 Def" on it. Yet the Draketalon pauldrons are better in any boss other than shadow damage bosses becouse they pack 2% dodge and 100 more armor. WHATEVER armor you have, those 100 armor are equally valuable. If you do some kind of "sacrifice" to raise your armor from 7000 to 7100 and you find it acceptable, you should know you gain exactly the same when raising from 8500 to 8600. Of course if gaining that 100 armor means sacrificing a good bunch of Stamina, or Defense, it is not worth it.

But several times, i see warriors discussing about two items for tanking (ussually cloaks) and they say "look, this one has more stamina, but that one has more Defense". When i point "yes but first one has much more armor too" they usually answer (as you do), "yes , but past certain point, armor is not usefull becouse of disminishing return". THAT myth (the disminishing return myth) is the one we should try to disapear. Becouse it is not true. 200 armor are _exactly_ as good when you are 6000 armor than they are when you are 10000 armor.

In following up post i'll show why having damage mitigation does not change the armor efficiency

[Fleabag]

Well frankly I dont care how you perceve my posts. I may come off as egotistical, mostly because I am. I dont need to list my resume of wow acomplishments, as its largly irrelivent and E-peen contests are as absurd as they are sad.

Bottom line I stand by the fact that warrior itemization penailizes the tank that emphasizes armor over mitigation. So regardless of the "math" involved, the reality is warriors dont value armor like a druid does.

It actually becomes detrimental at a certain point. The exception is consumables and buffs that allow you to exceed the limited armor ranges provided by gear and talents.

[triqui]

Lets use the same example than above, just with a tougher boss. This tougher boss do 200 dps instead. Our shiny warrior happen to have 20% dodge, 20% parry and 10% miss chance (through extra defense). This means 50% of the 200 dps the boss make, is fully mitigated through avoidance. That makes our boss do 100dps against that warrior. If we use the maths above shown, we will see that against those 100dps (after the reduction by avoidance) we will get exactly the results shown above. Which are: whatever armor you have, 2750 armor give you exactly the same time of survival even when counting up avoidance. I havent factored in criticals, but
a) warriors ussually dont get critted
b) critical avoidance is just the same than avoidance: mitigate 100% normal dmg (from 200% to 100%)

Not only that, but armor has a extra use over regular mitigation: it allways works. We can see a (oversimplificated) example with 2 players. both have 1000 life. One has 75% damage reduction from armor, and no dodge. The other has 75% dodge, and no armor. When they fight a boss that hit for 1000 damage, first warrior will never die, as far as he has a healer with mana who can heal him for 250. Second player will not get any damage when dodge, but will get killed in 1 shot when he does not. That is why rogues with huge dodge ratio (much more than a warrior might ever get) cant tank.

I havent counted in block either, but it really do not change how armor works Sure it is better to block than not to block, but the damage mitigated from your armor remains the same. And this lead to another little unknown fact about warriors (a common mistake Fleabag also made when he show us his shiny 72% avoidance including block)

THERE IS A HARD CAP IN AVOIDANCE AT 60%. No matter how much dodge, parry and block you have, you _cant_ have more than 60% avoidance (And this include misses). This is to make impossible to get to 100% avoidance and thus becoming impossible to be killed. (just like there is a DR cap or a Resistance cap) Any point above that 60% is wasted. Further more, every point above 60% is substracted proportionally from Dodge, parry, and block. As block is, obviously, much much less powerful than dodge or parry, this means that if you have more than 60% avoidance (including misses) and you increase your block, you gimp yourself. Lets say Fleabag have 10% miss, 15% parry, 15% dodge, 20% block. That is 60% avoidance, so no problem right now. Now he get a enchant that adds 2% block. He gets to 62% avoidance, but since there is a cap, he loses that 2%. _but_ he lose it from dodge, parry and block proportionally. So he loses 0.66% dodge, 0.66% parry and 0.66% block, and his final numbers will be 10% miss, 14.33% parry, 14.33% dodge and 21.33% block. As we can see, he has lost avoidance with that block enchantment...

This has, however, an exception: If you are using Shield Block, then this is override: shield block do not have an avoidance cap. But again , if you are using shield block, your awesome regular block rate is useless, as you will block anyways....

So fleabag, i would suggest you to reduce your block rate a bit, becouse it is gimping you, and get a bit more armor instead.

EDIT: This are the equivalences in defensive skills (usefull to know what to get in a gear slot)
1 AGI = 12.5 Armor
1% Dodge = 250 Armor
1 +Def = 33.3 Armor

And in other forum i once read that the "optimal" ratio between stamina and armor (speaking about phiscal damage only) is 1stamina=22 armor.

[Fleabag]

Ok the hard cap on mitigatioin is something Ive been trying to get information on for some while now. Ive heard it speculated that it is the case yet have not seen anything in blue to indicate its the case.

Do you have any sources to prove this? Not that I dont beleve you, its just after some months of searching Ive not seen anything concrete. Furthermore as a fury tank, I know that my measly regen from bloodthirst tends to outpace anything a non raid elite can dish out. Most other wariors I know cant tank 2+ 60 elites at a time with minimal (if any) health loss.

If the hard cap is in fact 60% then yes in fact you have a very valid argument in regards to the benifits of static armor mitigation. In a recent respec I droped toughness, as I saw the benifits as being purly a flat 2% or so damage reduction. But the result has been dramatic, and I seemingly take alot more damage then I used too.. especially in PvP.

So dont get the tone of my posts as combative, its just that I am going under the impresison that mitigation is not capped, and that armor mongering is more benificial to druids then tanks (past a certain point.) As you will often see druids braging about thier 16k+ armor moments before broodlord comes over and 1 shots them...

[Mexy]

looks like somebody needs to spend sometime in the minor leagues before bringing a big league attitude here....

i just have 1 question.... what's a fury tank? is that like military intellegence?

[triqui]

Ok the hard cap on mitigatioin is something Ive been trying to get information on for some while now. Ive heard it speculated that it is the case yet have not seen anything in blue to indicate its the case.
It is pretty obvious that _must_ be a cap. Otherwise, you will find that rogues with maxed huge buffed agility, huge +% dodge items, dodge talents, parry talents, etc, will get higher damage mitigation overall. (rogues get 1 dodge every 14.5 agi, and they can get a stupidly high amount, plus 2% dodge dual trinkets, dual 1% parry swords, etc). Any game, ever, will allow a player to become absolutely invincible. All games have allways hard caps in damage mitigation avoidance. Such is the case in Damage reduction and Resistance, so it will be the same in avoidance. We can argue if the 60% (which has been taken from extensive testing, just like the agro values from sunder etc) is or not right (which i completely trust to be). But _there is_ a cap, that for sure.

If the hard cap is in fact 60% then yes in fact you have a very valid argument in regards to the benifits of static armor mitigation. In a recent respec I droped toughness, as I saw the benifits as being purly a flat 2% or so damage reduction. But the result has been dramatic, and I seemingly take alot more damage then I used too.. especially in PvP. That is becouse a 2% increase in damage reduction is _not_ a 2% mores survival. This is only true in the first 2%. If you would had gone from (hypotetically) 98% to 96%, you would had HALVED your effective life (with just that small 2%). Obviously you cant have 98%, but you get the point: the higher DR you have, the bigger impact every 1% of dr has.


So dont get the tone of my posts as combative, its just that I am going under the impresison that mitigation is not capped,
Again, it HAS to be capped. You "get" 72%. Im pretty sure some other chars/classes can get more (rogues for example, or hunters with aura of monkey). AQ increase that. 1.11 naxrammas will increase it even more. The Burning crussade will increase it even more (just imagine lvl 70 legendary tanking chest plate...). So it is very easy to think that , eventually, some people will be able to get 100% avoidance in the future. Since that is simply stupid, it is mandatory to have a cap at some point. Extensive test researchs from combat logs seem to indicate that it is at 60%.


and that armor mongering is more benificial to druids then tanks (past a certain point.)
But it is NOT, and that is the myth i want to destroy. Whatever armor you have, 500 armor gives you the same benefit.

As you will often see druids braging about thier 16k+ armor moments before broodlord comes over and 1 shots them...
Actually, Broodlord has less chances to oneshot druids than warriors (that is why lot of top end guilds tank broodlord with bears). Against huge massive 1 shot damage, armor is more effective than parry or dodge, by far. Back to the example before: if you have 75% dodge, and 50% armor, with 1k life, and the boss hits for 2k damage, you WILL die first time you dont dodge. If i have 75% armor, and 1k life, i can survive the hit, and get healed. As far as my healers have mana, i cant die.

Remember: crushing blows cant be parried or dodged. But can be mitigated by armor. Broodlord is the perfect example of boss druids tank better: huge physical damage, low elemental damage, big hits that can one shot a player. (another good example is Hexxer in ZG, which often polymorph the tank, something that bears are inmune to)

[SadaraK]

I already knew all of this, and i allready knew the guy was spouting poo from his first post. But it has been very entertaining seeing him being beaten into the dust, cheers Triqui :).

Aw and resistance and its hard cap. Been wondering about that for a while. 315 i seem to remember is the hard cap for 75% reduction but i have never found anything on the mitigation from more.

[Pongle]

THERE IS A HARD CAP IN AVOIDANCE AT 60%.

Apparently not, there was a blue post in the warrior boards strongly implying otherwise.

[triqui]

Apparently not, there was a blue post in the warrior boards strongly implying otherwise.
Could you link a post Pongle? I would like to read what this post suggest, becouse it _has_ to be a cap. (which point or how it is handled could be debated, that you cant be able to get 100% avoidance is clear)

(note: depending on the tone of that post, or who wrote the post, it might be enterelly bul****. There is a blue post that suggest that beyond the 5 first sunders you would get more rage from other skills, and it is simply not true, has been proved and tsted that you still get full hate from sunder and it still is greater than everything else but shield slam or revenge. Simply was post on the fly for some Blue based on his own "experience" without consulting anything to the dev team, and he was just wrong. It is perfectly possible being blue and clueless, hence the smurfs... ;) )

[Hydro]

Could you link a post Pongle? I would like to read what this post suggest, becouse it _has_ to be a cap. (which point or how it is handled could be debated, that you cant be able to get 100% avoidance is clear)

(note: depending on the tone of that post, or who wrote the post, it might be enterelly bul****. There is a blue post that suggest that beyond the 5 first sunders you would get more rage from other skills, and it is simply not true, has been proved and tsted that you still get full hate from sunder and it still is greater than everything else but shield slam or revenge. Simply was post on the fly for some Blue based on his own "experience" without consulting anything to the dev team, and he was just wrong. It is perfectly possible being blue and clueless, hence the smurfs... ;) )

The blue post about sunders was actually that sunders aren;t the most rage *efficient*, not that sunders weren't the quickest way to raise your agro ceiling.

However, blue posters are, generally, idiots. They have less idea about game mechanics or encounters than the typically completely ignorant GMs.

[kcma]

i'm falling in love with your sexy attitude hydro... too bad you're not a hawt single woman...

[Hydro]

Right, yet your looking at it from the perspecive of mathimatics alone. I however am looking at it from the perspective of someone geared fully both tier 1 tier 2 and all things in between.

Current wariror itemization doesnt make it viable to go past 8.5 k armor without making some HUGE sacrafices. Im not giving up my epic rings and trinkets to squese in another 1k armor... no way...

All the magically non-existant tank gear in between eh?
Without toughness (As an actual person in full tier 2 with top tier ganking items) I am just above 8000 armor. With toughness, closer to 9000, not counting MOTW. If I was to go even further and replace Archimtiros/Signet with Veklor/Heavy Dark Iron, and a few enchants on cloaks/armor patches, it would be feasible to hit 10K with a warrior and sacrifice nothing more than minor stat upgrades and 5 resists.
Sounds like maybe your just a liar that wants to be pompous eh?

[Hydro]

i'm falling in love with your sexy attitude hydro... too bad you're not a hawt single woman...

Who says I'm not?
I troll Raids and Dungeons on Official forums all day long, keeps the insults sharp and the mind nimble.

[triqui]

Checked the blue post, was made by "pop enrage" Tseric (that alone kinda destroy any credibility it could have...), and imo was kinda vague :

"I have not seen any information which would lead me to believe there is a cap of these abilities. The only limitation I can see would be in the amount of gear you could stack with bonuses for each ability. "

He never says there is no cap. I could rephrase it to: "i have no idea how it works, never read anything about it -one way or the opposite- and never have spoken to any dev about it, but i can share my uneducated guess with you". Note that he does not say that cap is at 60% or not, he says that (he has never read that) there is no cap. That is, simply, stupid. There is no way the game will allow you to become impossible to kill. That is why there is a cap in damage reduction from armor and resistances.

Sadarak: The 315 magic numbers come from 63(max level of mob attacks currently) multiplied by 5. That is the required resistance to get 75% chance to full resist a hit (vs lvl 63). I have heard that ragnaros fire attack is lvl 64, but havent found any really reliable source. I would say my tank to pack 320 vs ragnaros just in case :P. Versus damaging (non binary) spells, you get a extra chance to resist 75% of the dmg, then 50% of dmg and 25% of dmg. So to get full dmg you have to fail 75% resist 4 times in a row, kinda difficult ;)

[triqui]

The blue post about sunders was actually that sunders aren;t the most rage *efficient*, not that sunders weren't the quickest way to raise your agro ceiling.
Yep, true, but i think i remember him suggesting using Heroic Strike and Shield slam (which arent eficient rage-wise, although very good time-wise). So he was misguided anyways. (he was mr "pop enrage" tseric)

[Wintrow]

It is pretty obvious that _must_ be a cap. Otherwise, you will find that rogues with maxed huge buffed agility, huge +% dodge items, dodge talents, parry talents, etc, will get higher damage mitigation overall. (rogues get 1 dodge every 14.5 agi, and they can get a stupidly high amount, plus 2% dodge dual trinkets, dual 1% parry swords, etc). Any game, ever, will allow a player to become absolutely invincible. All games have allways hard caps in damage mitigation avoidance. Such is the case in Damage reduction and Resistance, so it will be the same in avoidance. We can argue if the 60% (which has been taken from extensive testing, just like the agro values from sunder etc) is or not right (which i completely trust to be). But _there is_ a cap, that for sure.


This reminds me of City of Heroes. They have a class called Tanker. Each tank has to pick a Tanking skillset (Powersets actually). And only the best tanks can pull of being an Ice-Tank (avoidance-based, called Defense in CoH), while any fool can tank reasonably with a reduction-based set (Invulnerability, Stone, called resistance in CoH). And then there's the equivalent of the WoW-Fury tank, The Fire-Tank: Decent (CoH-)resistance against the most common damage types (Smashing, Lethal), great against Fire of course, but can put out a very nice amount of damage as well (for a Tank that is).

In CoH Defense is capped at 95%. So you get Tankers and Scrappers avoiding 95% of the hits. The difference between a Defense-Tank and a Defense-Scrapper then becomes the fact that a Tank has the hitpoints to absorb those 5% of the strikes that hit.

Come to think of it:
Tanker (the proverbial meatbag) = Warrior
Scrapper (mini-tank, dishes out lots of melee damage)= Rogue
Blaster (frail, ranged damage dealer) = Mage, Hunter (allthough the Hunter is tougher than a Blaster)
Controller (tons of CC + backup healer + gets a pet at L32) = Mage, Warlock (WoW doesn't really have a class who's main damage is to just do CC, but a Mage is best at it + Warlock has pets)
Defender (generally speaking, the healer + backup damage dealer) = Priest, Druid, Shaman

[triqui]

Didnt understand a single word. Which Faction you say that CoH is? can you get Reputation? =P

[henrikolausson]

Great post this really, very interesting to read, but it seems to me like you have forgot what is one of the most important property of a tank:

A steady health loss.

A high defense skill significantly reduces the chance of being a victim of a critical strike, which armor and other things does not. (this does also apply to crushing blows but I believe that only works with your base defense skill which can't be any higher than 310). Is this taken into consideration in your calculations?

Also, if we dont think about the mathematics for a while and focus on reality. From a healers perspective, it's a lot easier to keep the healing on track if the tank has a steady health loss (less criticals against him). For example, a sequence of; dodge, dodge, crit against you, is much worse than a block, block, normal hit against you.

Its very true that the game is built on mathematical algorithms but in the end its still our brains that will decide what buttons to press, and its a known fact that a human brain can't hande mathematical equations as a cumputer can.

So my conclusion is that defense is the most important thing and should be chosen before +dodge and +parry. In every situation where mana issues is not a big problem, a steady health loss is more important than the total damage taken.

[Kyras]

Its very true that the game is built on mathematical algorithms but in the end its still our brains that will decide what buttons to press, and its a known fact that a human brain can't hande mathematical equations as a cumputer can.

This is why we do the math before we log in. =P

Razumihim,
Dorf Priest

[Hydro]

A steady health loss.

.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1737/wowscrnshot0402062123165gv.jpg

:(
:(

[SadaraK]

Now your just showing off hydro :)

[Hydro]

Now your just showing off hydro :)

Wasn't a show off, was a truth.
Tons of dodge and parry in a row = healers aren't constantly healing = spike of damage = death for 40 people.

Edit - the end of the combat log should have shown a Shadowbolt for 3700 and a "You Die" message. :(

[SadaraK]

Wasn't a show off, was a truth.
Tons of dodge and parry in a row = healers aren't constantly healing = spike of damage = death for 40 people.

Edit - the end of the combat log should have shown a Shadowbolt for 3700 and a "You Die" message. :(

That has more to do with the healers skill then anything else. Overheal can be avioded by decent healers, at least to a certain degree. The best healers are the ones that can effectively heal a tank that needs to jump in when he wasn't expected to (though note im not talking about many of the higher end fights where loosing an agro'ed mt is a wipe).

I know you might say no healer can lay off healing while they see the tanks hp not going down then put it back on effectively when they see the tanks hp dropping again, but it is possible with lower rank spells and renew and such.

[Hydro]

about many of the higher end fights where loosing an agro'ed mt is a wipe).
.

That's what this fight is :(
Even with 11,000 HP the burst damage with unlucky mitigation takes me down, which is all I was really saying.
Steady health loss owns all.

[triqui]

Great post this really, very interesting to read, but it seems to me like you have forgot what is one of the most important property of a tank:

A steady health loss.
That is _exactly_ what armor gives. If you have ever seen a 17k bear tanking, the only thing they beat us is in steady health loss. They get hit constantly by hits that are nearly half as hard as yours. (you have 60% damage reduction, he has 25%. You get 800dmg from a 2k hit, he gets 500). Even when he is crit, he lose 1000 damage. Your _normal_ hits are almost that big. Your Crushing blows (which happen much more often than crits) are bigger than that. Your crits are close to double that.

Steady health loss is achieved by using things that allways mitigate damage (ie: armor) instead of using things that either mitigate 100% damage, or nothing. That is why rogues with 45% dodge and 15% parry cant tank.


A high defense skill significantly reduces the chance of being a victim of a critical strike, which armor and other things does not. (this does also apply to crushing blows but I believe that only works with your base defense skill which can't be any higher than 310). Is this taken into consideration in your calculations? With a absolute hard cap in 440, and an "effective cap" somewhat lower than that (if your crit chances are below 1%, your chacnes to be crit twice in a row are like < 1/10000).

And that is where my points enter: You _can_ avoid completely the crits. But you _cant_ avoid the crushing blows at all. Therefore the 2 main MT killers are: spike damage from huge elemental/magic attacks, and crushing blow streaks. Becouse you _cant_ dodge, parry or avoid crushing blows, and they have a 15% chance to happen. If you get 2-3 of those in a relatively close sequence of time, you die. _only_ thing that can mitigate this is armor.

note: im not advocating to get rid of +def or +parry and use gear with high armor value and nothing else. Im just stating that there is a common misconception among warriors, and most of them think that, past a point, armor lost its value. That is simply a myth. ARMOR never lose its value. You get disminishing returns in DR, but not in survival. In the example above, we saw that a 15% damage reduction difference (75vs60) become nearly in double as much damage (800/500= 160% of damage)

Also, if we dont think about the mathematics for a while and focus on reality. From a healers perspective, it's a lot easier to keep the healing on track if the tank has a steady health loss
That is why armor is so important.

(less criticals against him). For example, a sequence of; dodge, dodge, crit against you, is much worse than a block, block, normal hit against you. And a crhusing blow/dodge/crushing blow vs a 7.9k armor tank is much more dangerous than a crushing blow/dodge/crushing blow vs a 9k armor tank. Steady damage is exactly what armor is for. Yes, you need to get critical damaga avoidance, but you will get it anyways. We are talking about other kind of stuff here. For example: a _ton_ of misguidied warriors would say that, for pure tanking, Ornate adamantium breastplate (807 armor 22 stam 10 def) is better than Conqueror's breastplate (983 armor, 6 def, 38 stam, 24 agi=1.2% dodge) becouse they do the "higher defense= better) comparison. Conqueror's breastplate is unbeateable by _any_ piece of armor in the game, except Wrath _if_ you have several pieces and you get set bonuses -full wrath is very very good-. It has more than ONE THOUSAND armor...
Similarly, lot of warriors believe that the 17def in DeathBone chest outweights the nearly 200 extra armor in the Ornate Adamantium Breastplate. It does not....

Also have heard about warriors saying they dont take Toughness (even getting 15 points in prot) becouse "past one point, toughness lose its value. That is exactly the opposite. The higher your gear is, the better Toughness become. Becouse we have seen that armor _never_ lose valule, and 100 armor are 100 armor and are worth the same when you have 6k than when you have 8k. But toughness will give 600 armor to a 6k armor pre MC tank, and will give 900 armor to a 9k armor AQ40 tank.

So my conclusion is that defense is the most important thing and should be chosen before +dodge and +parry. In every situation where mana issues is not a big problem, a steady health loss is more important than the total damage taken. I agree with the steady loss. That is why armor is so valuable...

[kcma]

i remember when 10k AC was an eye opener... and now hydro has 11k hp :)

[rmvetski]

arguing for the sake of arguing eh? it will always be on the menu

chance to completely negate dmg > very very very very marginally reduced dmg(above a certain value)?

where's the argument?

[rmvetski]

i remember when 10k AC was an eye opener... and now hydro has 11k hp :)

warrior's been havin 12k+ for some time now

[kcma]

it's in the wording... how about...

very very very very very small chance of completely nagating dmg... < a couple percent of dmg.

pretty much what triqui says <3

***

damn my warrior has no hp :) better gear up.

[triqui]

arguing for the sake of arguing eh? it will always be on the menu

chance to completely negate dmg > very very very very marginally reduced dmg(above a certain value)?
I bet you didnt read any of the posts, or you didnt understood any of them...

Only value where armor lose its effectiveness is 17k. You wont be there as a warrior, ever. In every other single point, from 0 to 16999, armor efficiency is linear, and 100 armor at 3000 is exactly the same than 100 armor at 10900.

Steady damage mitigation(and yes, that includes crit negation through def) > head or tail chance to die.

where's the argument?
The argument is that some warriors seem to think that disminishing returns in damage reduction is the same than disminishing returns in armor effectiveness. It is not.

[kcma]

triqui pwned.

/cheer <3

i love this new sexy attitude.

[galzohar]

This thread makes me happier that I'm no longer in the build that bashed me (very hard) for posting something similar to this ;)

[Hydro]

And that is where my points enter: You _can_ avoid completely the crits. But you _cant_ avoid the crushing blows at all. Therefore the 2 main MT killers are: spike damage from huge elemental/magic attacks, and crushing blow streaks. Becouse you _cant_ dodge, parry or avoid crushing blows, and they have a 15% chance to happen. If you get 2-3 of those in a relatively close sequence of time, you die. _only_ thing that can mitigate this is armor.


<3
Toughness and Imp. Shield block are the best 2 talents in the protection tree for mitigation.
Keeping this baby bumped!

[kcma]

hydro participating in thread bumping?? what's next??

[rmvetski]

triqui pwned.

/cheer <3

i love this new sexy attitude.

you might wanna rephrase that to keep your momentum going

[BoddoZerg]

As an Inspiration specced priest, I can say that Armor pwns. A lot of priests don't take Inspiration, but you can tell that tanks take much less damage from physical hits when they've got +25% armor.

Or you can just have a bear tank Broodlord and see for yourself.

[triqui]

Yeah, inspiration should be mandatory for priests and shamans...

[Llynn]

Great thread :smiley: I think we discussed it in here a long time ago (like a half year or something). Nice to pull it out again, and very very detailed, lots of good info, kkthxbye.

[Lancealittle]

Very good info.

I was one of the people listening to the 'ac is not important' people.

I almost took points out of my toughness talent and I was wearing deathbone BP over OAB for a while.

I need to go back over my gear. I do some tanking in MC, but my armor is still all pre-mc. I have a full suit of Deathbone (I've always hoarded junk) but the ac is pretty crappy on it. I've already decided to keep wearing my OAB for the AC, but I'll have to look at the legs and boots to see if there are better choices for me in my bank as well.

[Llynn]

Legs: Legplates of the eternal guardian FTW! Easy to get, great leggings.
Boots: Grimy metal have descent ac.

[Amiral]

While this post shows that in a defensive purpose, that Armour do not ahve any dimishining returns, how do warriors fare in offence, if you count armour?

Is Sunder more effective against low-armour mobs or high-armour ones, when counting increased Rage generation?

[galzohar]

Sunder would be more effective against low armor ones as long as it doesn't "try reducing it" below 0. That is because if say he has 50% damage reduction and u reduce all his armor exactly he'll have 0%. If he had 75% and u reduced the same amount of armor he would have 66%.
It's just like HP - if you have 10k HP then -1k HP is not as bad as if you would've had 2k HP.

[Gaelan]

As an Arms/Fury Warrior I'm the backup "tank" for our raids. If the MT goes down for whatever reason, I'm always next, or near next on the aggro list so I've become the designated "backup" guy. I usually wear hybrid offensive gear on bosses just in case. So items like Gaunts of Might, Bloodsoaked Pauldrons (soon the legs too), etc, so I have some +defense, good armor, and offensive stats.

But even though with that stuff I'm not as efficient as the main tank due to him having better blocks, more blocks, more armor etc due to talents and more specialized tank gear, but if he goes down I pop a greater stoneshield pot (2000 AC for 2 minutes), throw on my sword/board and hop in and I'm fine until he soul stones, gets healed up, buffed back up, and then jumps back in. Usually takes him 20-30 seconds to be fully ready to go again. But just wanted to give some experience that when I add 2000 AC the healers don't seem to notice a difference between us.

[triqui]

Sunder would be more effective against low armor ones as long as it doesn't "try reducing it" below 0. That is because if say he has 50% damage reduction and u reduce all his armor exactly he'll have 0%. If he had 75% and u reduced the same amount of armor he would have 66%.
It's just like HP - if you have 10k HP then -1k HP is not as bad as if you would've had 2k HP.
That is exactly what this thread is about. Lot of people keep thinking that Disminishing returns in damage reduction means disminishing returns in armor efficiency, and it is NOT the same.

Lets say you have two targets, one with 2250 armor, other with 4500 armor


You sunder both of them for 2250. You have 100 dps, they have 1000 life.

First target:2250 armor
Before sunders, he has 29.03% dr. So each second, he takes 70.97 damage. He will die in 14.09 seconds
After sunders, he has 0 DR, and he will take 100 dps. Will die in 10 seconds. Fully sundereing him you gain: exactly 4.09 seconds.

Second target, has 4500 armor. Thats 45% dr. So each second, he takes 55 damage. He will die in 18.18 seconds.
After the sunders, he has 2250 armor, or 29.03% dr. He will get 70.97 damage. He will die in 14.09 seconds. Fully sundering him you gain exactly 4.09 seconds again

Fully sundering the 2250 mail guy and the 4500 plate user, give you the same in both cases: 4.09 seconds in time reduction.

[Shingoukieh]

which is better to have.........high armor in sacrifising HP or medium or low armor with alot more HP??? Some of the equipment i get sometime have tons of armor but then other equipment i get have medium armor with tons of stamina. Sometimes i dont know which is more important to equip

[triqui]

Shigoukieh, balance is key. A warrior with 30k hitpoints and 0 armor is worth nothing, becouse he will drain his priest mana bar as if there is no tomorrow. A warrior with 16000 armor and 3000hp will die in first serious hit he takes, not allowing their priests to save him.

You have to pump all the stats, all of them are important (armor, defense, hitpoints, resistances, parry, dodge, +block...). You might sacrifice one slot or two to get a good bump in one part (for example, getting stoneform shoulders, that have no stamina, but very high armor and defense). But if you find yourself doing that in too much slots, you will have huge number in one stat, and lack a lot in others.

A good starting point is the addon Tankpoints, that give you a measure of how hard it is to kill you with melee damage. That help you to identify which gear is better. Beyond that, use common sense: if you have good armor and good life, but just ok defense, pump your defense. If you have good defense and nice armor, but poopy life, pump your life.

[Amiral]

Fully sundering the 2250 mail guy and the 4500 plate user, give you the same in both cases: 4.09 seconds in time reduction.

What I was talking about, was how the rage-generation-modifies by armour.. which in its own turn, when facing a mail-user vs. facing a plate-user, would make the rage-generation better, and thus more specials=faster dead.
right?

[galzohar]

That is exactly what this thread is about. Lot of people keep thinking that Disminishing returns in damage reduction means disminishing returns in armor efficiency, and it is NOT the same.

Lets say you have two targets, one with 2250 armor, other with 4500 armor


You sunder both of them for 2250. You have 100 dps, they have 1000 life.

First target:2250 armor
Before sunders, he has 29.03% dr. So each second, he takes 70.97 damage. He will die in 14.09 seconds
After sunders, he has 0 DR, and he will take 100 dps. Will die in 10 seconds. Fully sundereing him you gain: exactly 4.09 seconds.

Second target, has 4500 armor. Thats 45% dr. So each second, he takes 55 damage. He will die in 18.18 seconds.
After the sunders, he has 2250 armor, or 29.03% dr. He will get 70.97 damage. He will die in 14.09 seconds. Fully sundering him you gain exactly 4.09 seconds again

Fully sundering the 2250 mail guy and the 4500 plate user, give you the same in both cases: 4.09 seconds in time reduction.
First target takes 70.1% of the time it'd take it to die without sunders.
Second target would take 75% of the time it'd take it to die without sunders.
This is just like if you remove 1k HP from a 2k HP target it'll die twice as fast (100% faster, or 1/2 the time), while reducing 1k HP from a 11K target will only make it die 10% faster (10/11 of the time).

Of course I agree that there aren't really diminishing returns for armor, but the more you get the less you will "feel" you're getting. Just like if you already have +500 spell damage, you won't feel the difference of additional +100 as if you would've had 0 to start with. The effects aren't diminishing though.
If you play with the armor formula, you can get that in order to lose 1 point of HP a mob will need to damage you for 1+armor/5500, so yeah every extra point of armor does count.
In a pure physical fight increasing the value of (1+armor/5500) by X% is always better than increasing the value of your HPs by X%, as you'll be able to take the same amount of damage before dying, but heals will be more efficient on you. However when you need to compare an increase to stamina higher than X% it becomes a tough choice - more healing efficiency or sucking more heals in order to be able to take a larger amount of burst damage before dying so you *can* get healed? The answer to this can only be found by experience/experiments and knoledge of the encounter you're facing. I'd keep both kinds of gear if I had a warrior and such options.
Don't forget armor has 0 effect on fire damage though ;0 so in massive fire damage fights you should obviously neglect armor for FR.

[triqui]

What I was talking about, was how the rage-generation-modifies by armour.. which in its own turn, when facing a mail-user vs. facing a plate-user, would make the rage-generation better, and thus more specials=faster dead.
right?

It should be the same in both cases i think (talking from my head, havent done any math). Versus a plate user your rage generation suck, and with sunder, it suck less. Versus a mail user your rage generation is ok, and with sunder, it is a bit more ok. Maybe you are right about incresing damage a bit more will get slightly more adventage against lower armors, but also, against lower armors, you will get high benefit from regular instant damage specials as a mortal strike. What i mean is: why losing time sundering a mage, if he would die with a mortal strike ? (not really true, but you get the point). On the other hand, versus a bear, the fight will last long enough to get maximun benefit from the 30 seconds armor debuff of sunder.

Galzohar: yes, the "feeling" is different. But in both cases you get 4.09 seconds of fight reduction (Which means you get 4.09 x enemyDPS extra damage, etc). The effect is similar, even if the feel is not. I think it is not just a coincedence that armor act like this (adding "fixed" time survival), i think blizzard made the armor calculation so it worked exactly like this.

And yes, you are right about stamina and armor being both important. I have said in this thread that balance is key. Just made the post to make sure everybody understand that there is NOT disminishing returns in armor, and it allways work equally well. (PS: in case of fire damage, substitute armor for FR. You need enough FR to make the heal your priest casted on you to last more than 0.1s, but you still need hp to survive the hit, so the priest can, actually, cast the heal :D )

[stevethatsmyname]

wow, this thread delivers.... a warrior who admits a druid can tank? unbelievable!! In other news, i actually got a tell from someone asking if i can please tank RFK ^_^. <--- lvl 33 feral druid, (shaman/rogue mains)

[triqui]

Not only they can tank, but they tank BETTER in some bosses. Broodlord (high phisical peak damage), Hexxer (regularly polymorph the tank) or Nefarian (warriors call hurt more than druids call for tanking) are some of them. Overall, however, warriors tank better. 10% less damage from magic, parry, block etc make them better in the long run. But druids are able to tank. People who say "druids cant tank" are just like people who said in the first MC runs "warriors cant dps".

[galzohar]

Coming from the world of a rogue reducing armor in PvP was never even close to considered (such a waste), dunno how it is for wars. Anyway my post was and isn't refering to wether u should sunder in PvP or not, at all.
Anyway, you compare the time reducing armor shortens the fight of 2 opponents of DIFFERENT power. If we compare 2 opponents of EQUAL power:
Opponent A: 2k HP 5500 armor (50% reduction)
Opponent B: 1k HP 16500 armor (75% reduction)
With 100 DPS, both opponents will require 40 seconds to be taken down.
If you reduce both of their armor by 5500, A would take 20 seconds to be taken down and B would take 30 seconds to kill. So yeah the more armor the less effective it is to lower it by X. That's why I took the "how much faster in %" rather than "how much faster in seconds" approach.
This settles with everything else in life that would say "if he has a lot of something taking X away wouldn't do as much as taking X away from someone who only has that much".
*Another* way to look at it that if he has more than max armor (over 16500) reducing the armor will do absolutely nothing.

[triqui]

You cant do a comparison with 2 ppl with different hitpoints and expect it to be fair... To make a comparison you have to do all the other variants the same. That is as you say oponent A has 2k hp, 5000 armor, and is hit by 100dps, oponent B has 1k hp, 10k armor, and is hit by 400 dps... what is the point?
EDIT: it is like AP for example. If you demo shout and remove 140 ap from a target with 1400 AP it "feels" as it does less than if you remove 140ap from a target with 600 ap. But you have removed 10dps from both, becouse AP has no disminishing returns (as armor). Perception lies :P

[GmArchaon]

First of all to make things clear I’m not a warrior, but decided to check out your posts :smiley: .
I don’t really know how damage reduction from armour works, so here’s my question to Triqui: I agree with you that there has to be a cap on dodge, block and parry individually, but why would having 100% avoidance make you invincible? I do not know how armour mechanics work, but I got the impression that avoidance is composed of block, parry and dodge so if the 100% is divided amongst all of these you will not be invisible if you have 100% avoidance, right?

For example, if you have 50% block and 25% parry/dodge (i.e 100% avoidance), common sense tells me that when an enemy attacks you have 50 on 100% to block, if you don’t you don’t, after that 25 on 100% to parry etc… Thus, the way I see it having 100% avoidance doesn’t make you invincible.

Please note:
1: like I said I’m not a warrior, but the thread was too interesting for me not to contribute :grin:
2: my post is written in a clam, respective tone (i.e. I’m only asking a friendly question).
3: I only read the posts till page 2.

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

[Fleabag]

No, 100% mitigation doesnt mean that you are invulnerable. Especially as near half of that will be block, and on a 63 mob there is *ALWAYS* a 15% chance of crushing blow.

To review the issue of mitigation caps.. well I gave you guys some time to come up with some cold hard facts, or imperical data to back the existaence of a cap. You didnt find any... Would you like to know why?

Because in fact there IS no cap. As many of you will recall some months ago there was a bug with the Shaman allowing the stacking of the grace of air totem. This totem gives about 63 agi, yet via an exploit many shamans were buffing themselved to well over 600+ agi. And you know what? That gave them 100% dodge. Thats right, 100% from agi alone. No special abilities, no caviates, nothing other then pure agi mitigation.

So before you flame someone with data you made up (such as 60% hard cap) please back your data up. I dont doubt your armor argument, as a matter of fact I never disputed your #s, cuz spot on you are in fact right in that regard.

And from my experence I still maintain that a high mitigation build with around 8.5k armor is the most compfortable build I have had to date. You guys might not agree, doesnt change the fact that I have tried as many variations as I can come up with, and this is the most solid build Ive ever had.

[Fleabag]

To GMArachoon:

WoW uses a tabling system to determine miss/hit/block/parry/dodge, this system uses a singe calculation to determine the result. Essentially the easiest way to explain it is to assume the game rolls a random 1000, and then determines the outcome by dividing your %s into corisponding values.

To cite your eg:

1-50 miss
51-300 parry
301-550 dodge
551-800 block
801-950 crushing blow
951-1000 crit

Would be a hypothetical mitigation index vs a 63 mob. This eg cites no adjustments from def, just uses raw mitigation #s.

[galzohar]

triqui compared 2 guys with different power (same HP different armor), while I compared 2 guys of EQUAL power - even though different HP and armor it takes both the same time to die. However reducing the armor of the target with less armor had a bigger effect on the time it took to kill it.
Same goes for damage, yeah. If you reduce someone's damage from 10 to 0 you will *never* die while if you reduce someone's damage from 100 to 90... You get the point.
Any math you do in this game should be % based for best results. Plain +stat is meaningless if you don't know how much you already have and what % it adds to your total power.

[GmArchaon]

To GMArachoon:

WoW uses a tabling system to determine miss/hit/block/parry/dodge, this system uses a singe calculation to determine the result. Essentially the easiest way to explain it is to assume the game rolls a random 1000, and then determines the outcome by dividing your %s into corisponding values.

To cite your eg:

1-50 miss
51-300 parry
301-550 dodge
551-800 block
801-950 crushing blow
951-1000 crit

Would be a hypothetical mitigation index vs a 63 mob. This eg cites no adjustments from def, just uses raw mitigation #s.

Thanks for the info. So it's impossible to be invincible with 100% avoidance, right?

[stevethatsmyname]

or Nefarian (warriors call hurt more than druids call for tanking) are some of them.
Hmm, I was under the impressoin that the druid call was *THE* reason that druids can't tank Nefarian. Being stuck in berserker stance, while painful, you still retain all your armor, all your hit points, and can still use your normal aggro skills (just with less effectivenes)

I had thought that druid call = dead cat. i thought that the call forces druids into cat form, which basically means you lose most of your armor, 1/4 of your HP, and both of your combat skills (maul/swipe)

Druid also has no berserker rage so could only possibly tank on alliance side (with a healthy number of dwarf priests). On horde, a druid tanking nefarian would be pretty ridiculous.

I think it would be a good idea on alliance side to have a bear high on the hate list, to take over tanking during warrior call, but otherwise warriors probably do the job better.

[triqui]

For example, if you have 50% block and 25% parry/dodge (i.e 100% avoidance), common sense tells me that when an enemy attacks you have 50 on 100% to block, if you don’t you don’t, after that 25 on 100% to parry etc… Thus, the way I see it having 100% avoidance doesn’t make you invincible.

It does not work that way. First, if you do that way, you make the game check: first, if it miss, if it doesnt, check if it crit, if it doesent, check parry, then dodge, then check block, check crushing blows, check glancing blows, check procs, etc... You will be doing up to 10 rolls to do something that can be done just with one. No programer will use the CPU 10 times if he can get same ressult with 1 use.

What the game does is (lets say you have 5% crit, dodge, parry, block and miss)
1-5: crit
5-10: dodge
11-15: parry
16-20: block
21-25: miss
26-100: hit

And roll just once. The proof of that is very simple: go there and start several fights. You will see that, after 1000 attacks, if you have 10% dodge, parry and block, you will have 100 dodges, 100 parrys and 100 blocks (roughly, of course, slight variations due to random). BUT if it would had work as you suggested (a lot of people think it does), then the numbers would had been:

1000 attack. 100 of them misses
900 attack "hit". 90 of them (10%) are dodged
810 attack pass the dodge check. 81 of them are parried.
729 attacks pass the parry check. roughly 73 of them are blocked.

And you can easily check that it does not work that way. Same goes with crits: you crit your crit % of ATTACKS not hits. That means if you dual wield, and use only autoattacks, and you have 10% crit, after 1000 attacks you crit roughly 100 of them (easy to check also). IF it would first check to hit, then check to crit if it has been a hit, with 24% miss, you would had made

1000 attacks, 760 hits, 76 of them crit. You can check it does not work that way

Back to the original point: the avoidance is added together to one single roll (for programing purpose, as well as game balance: if you make them a short evaluation circuit, then increassing your dodge chance will make you have less parry chance, for example, which would be bad for skills like counterattack or riposte). Therefore, you HAVE to put a cap. Otherwise, you "could" get, say, 50% dodge and 50% parry and never been touched.

Steve: i think i was wrong about the Druid in Nef :S. Somehow i mixed that up. I have a guildie that has tanked Nef as druid, but probably (as you say) he did take the tanking during warrior call only. (i havent been in nef so far, our guild is at chrommagus, this druid was a recent recruit)

[builder]

Can I ask to the warriors with 11K waht gear they have please.

[triqui]

You should ask what buffs they have. Im pretty sure that flask of titams, jung, PWF, improved imp, MOTW , 5% extra (tauren or BoK),elixir of brute strength, spirit of zanza, admirals hat, and maybe the epic +25 stamina food, to start with. thats like 4k hp in buffs.

[kcma]

and the +50 stam buff from blasted land =p

[SadaraK]

Well im currently on 6325hp (off the top of my head, its 63** anyway, changes with the gears i use to alternate). So if that really is about 4k of buffs + the lung juice im just shy of the 11k :). Thats with 5 might, 3 wrath to btw so its not that hard to get more.

Though its worth mentioning that i rarely see above 8k in normal raids. And have never yet used a titan pot for anything other then making the legs :).

[Hydro]

Just over 7200 unbuffed, Zanza/Flask of Titans/Chimaerok Tenderloinds and regular buffs make up the rest.
Blasted Lands doesnt stack with Zanza.

[kcma]

well i wouldnt know since i'm lvl 56 =D

[triqui]

Though its worth mentioning that i rarely see above 8k in normal raids. And have never yet used a titan pot for anything other then making the legs :).
We use Titans regularly on the 3 main tanks in BWL. We dont have it "at farm" yet. We kill up to chrommie, but we still wipe eventually, and every bit helps (not that Titans is a "bit", but you get the point ;) ). I bet Hydro guild has some similar status, just that in AQ40. Once you have the place at farm, you dont waste flasks there (heck, i mostly refuse to use potions in MC :p )

[kcma]

We use Titans regularly on the 3 main tanks in BWL. We dont have it "at farm" yet. We kill up to chrommie, but we still wipe eventually, and every bit helps (not that Titans is a "bit", but you get the point ;) ). I bet Hydro guild has some similar status, just that in AQ40. Once you have the place at farm, you dont waste flasks there (heck, i mostly refuse to use potions in MC :p )

MC rip my warrior new holes... i heart my pots.

[stevethatsmyname]

yah it really depends how experienced your healers are, once you've been thru MC enough you only really need pots for rag... (maybe domo)

[Hydro]

We use Titans regularly on the 3 main tanks in BWL. We dont have it "at farm" yet. We kill up to chrommie, but we still wipe eventually, and every bit helps (not that Titans is a "bit", but you get the point ;) ). I bet Hydro guild has some similar status, just that in AQ40. Once you have the place at farm, you dont waste flasks there (heck, i mostly refuse to use potions in MC :p )

We use a flask of the titans for Nefarian (the warrior call can cause an unlucky wipe without it) and the Twin Emperors (they hit REALLY hard :( ).
We used to use one for Broodlord also, but like you said, the more you farm the zone, the less potions you use ^^

[kcma]

i'm 56 and my healbot is 54... we cant duo MC...

[triqui]

yah it really depends how experienced your healers are, once you've been thru MC enough you only really need pots for rag... (maybe domo)
Also depends on your warrior (and healers) gear. Even the most experienced players will have a tougher day trying to keep alive a 7000 armor/390 defense tank with +250 heal gear, than they would to keep alive a 8500 armor/430 defense tank using +500 heal gear.

[rmvetski]

there's hope for any warrior in MC, I've seen a 4.4k hp warrior as a support tank in there, idiots will allow for anything but yeah, I contributed, didn't I?....

btw triq, don't you think +%block items will be more sought after, being represented only since recently basically and with an expansion coming and even tougher bosses to face, I think it's the general trend..

[Hydro]

don't you think +%block items will be more sought after, being represented only since recently ..

Yes.
10 Characters.

[Fleabag]

Ok after extensive testing I can honestly say, there is no mitigation cap. Test it yourself. Its a myth.

[Aerath]

Unless I see -how- you tested that, I am more inclined to believe the calculations I saw, showing a 75% mitigation cap.

Note that a cap is needed, as otherwise it will become possible to literally become invulnerable.

[Amiral]

if ther is a mitigation cap, how come rogues can evasion "tank"?

[triqui]

I think he mean avoidance cap (dodge + parry + block). Sorry fleabag, but i have seen other people extensive tests, with combat logs of 10k hits and stuff, done with more than 60% avoidance, and yet, they only avoid 60% of the attacks.
I would like to test it myself, but i dont have the gear necessary to get over 60% avoidance (i think), so i cant test myself. And between yours "it does nto work" and the extensive proofs i have seen, i chose believe the second. Tell us how you proved it (gear, number of attacks, mobs [b] if you were using shield block or evasion or deterrance[, which roll in a different table and overcome the cap/b] etc), so we can see if the test was properly done.

EDIT: Amiral: evasion, deterrance and shield block do not have cap (they woudl be useless skills otherwise...)

[triqui]

flea bag:
Bassically what you are saying is that if you go with 20% parry, 20% dodge and 21% block (stats that can be got with current gear) and you go and face a mob 55 lvls below you ( = 275 def points for you compared to his weapon skill), that gives you 11% to parry, dodge, block and miss, you will NEVER EVER be hit by that mob. No chance. Ever. (20+20+21+11+11+11+11+5=100% avoidance). That is not what other people tests have shown. They go in their full BWL lvl tanking gear to "tank" a lvl 5 mob in ellwyn forest, and they get hit by the mob (roughly 40% of the attacks, by the way).
Remember: that is not using shield block

[Fleabag]

My first test was conducted with 15% parry, 14.5 parry, and 24% block, plus 416 def. I used the quartermaster by the BWL entrance to guage results.

After 1000 swings I had only been hit about 360 times, the rest were either fully mitigated by blocks (block for over 200) or had been dodged/parried/or missed.

After which, I respeced (as I had been planing to do for some while now) and brought shield spec back, I also put on my blocking gear, which is a mix of might/wrath/and the zg set. This gives me a 38% block now, 408 def, 17% dodge, and 14% parry.

I substancially improved my mitigation. I went to well over 75% mitigation, getting hit on average less then 3 swings in 10. Out of a 1000 swings I took a "hit" only 210 times the first try. Subsiquent attmepts I took hits 260, and 240 times a piece. (these values have been rounded)

Now as to the speculation of there existing a 75% cap, this is only in part true. No matter what your mitigation level only shield block will prevent the ability of taking a crushing blow or crit in PvE. Otherwise you will always recive a crush 15% of the time, and a crit 5% of the time. Mind you only crit can be mitigated by def, not crush.

That said, there is no mitigation cap, yet there is a celing as crush and crit are static, and only certain circumstances can bump them off the hit table. More importantly that brings us to Imp Shield block, perhaps the most usefull skill in prot, this ability can make you immune to both (phisical damage only mind you) crits and crushes in PvE, as it replaces the entire hit range with a block on the hit table.

A 35-40% block is not that hard to acheve, and sets a great backdrop for mitigation testing. Try it, I think you will be suprised.

[Fleabag]

Further support of the lack of both a mitigation cap, and how blocking works can be found here: http://evilempireguild.org/guides/ under the newly added blocking section.

[Hateblade]

Rogues Evasion tank, because it is a SKILL. We would suffer the same problem, if we had a way to get our Dodge and Parry up to the ranges that a Tank can get Block/Parry/Dodge. Thankfully, Rogues don't need to do so.

Now then, if I take a rogue with a base dodge of 28%, and throw on evasion, he can now dodge 78% of all attacks. Then, take a rogue who is specced into Sub. for Ghostly Strike. That adds another 15% onto dodge.

That is a total of 92% to dodge all melee attacks, while the two skills are up. Since they are skills, and not based on Stats, they are not capped or mitigated. HOWEVER, there is still an 8% chance that you are going to get hit. Depending on what you are fighting, that 8% is what's going to kill you. As a Rogue, it's my job to start the Chromaggus event in BWL. I have the best ability for burst speed, and the highest chance to not die, until Chromaggus is in range to be pulled by a hunter, or the MT. I've died every single time I've opened that gate. Granted, I've dodged 3-4 of his attacks in a row before, but when he hits, it's 2-3K plus on my leather-wearing butt.

Dodge/Parry/Block are all awesome. Stopping Damage is better than taking it, BUT when you do take that damage, your armor comes into play.

[triqui]

Will try tomorrow. Just to be sure of what i will test, your hypothesis is that there is no such thing as mitigation cap. Only cap would be, if anything, the crushing blow/crit ceiling, right?

Ok, i will try tomorrow. My method of trying will be getting my tanking gear (cant remember exact % mitigation now, but slightly above 400 def, i add 4.12% to parry, dodge, miss and block, in adition to agility or +parry /dodge bonuses) and go to deathknell, agro a level 1 zombie, and let him do +10k attacks vs me (just put a +hp / 5s item).

Having 59 lvls above the mob, i should have about 30% dodge, 30% parry, 20% miss and 25% or so block. Since the lvl 1 mob cant crit me, or cant crush blow me (lol), if your hypothesis is right, then i wont be hit, ever. Not a single time (i block more than enought damage to fully block it). Will post the log then.

[kcma]

Rogues Evasion tank, because it is a SKILL. We would suffer the same problem, if we had a way to get our Dodge and Parry up to the ranges that a Tank can get Block/Parry/Dodge. Thankfully, Rogues don't need to do so.

Now then, if I take a rogue with a base dodge of 28%, and throw on evasion, he can now dodge 78% of all attacks. Then, take a rogue who is specced into Sub. for Ghostly Strike. That adds another 15% onto dodge.

That is a total of 92% to dodge all melee attacks, while the two skills are up. Since they are skills, and not based on Stats, they are not capped or mitigated. HOWEVER, there is still an 8% chance that you are going to get hit. Depending on what you are fighting, that 8% is what's going to kill you. As a Rogue, it's my job to start the Chromaggus event in BWL. I have the best ability for burst speed, and the highest chance to not die, until Chromaggus is in range to be pulled by a hunter, or the MT. I've died every single time I've opened that gate. Granted, I've dodged 3-4 of his attacks in a row before, but when he hits, it's 2-3K plus on my leather-wearing butt.

Dodge/Parry/Block are all awesome. Stopping Damage is better than taking it, BUT when you do take that damage, your armor comes into play.

sheildblock and shieldwall just came to mind... but i havent been that far so what do i know :)

[Amiral]

Will try tomorrow. Just to be sure of what i will test, your hypothesis is that there is no such thing as mitigation cap. Only cap would be, if anything, the crushing blow/crit ceiling, right?

Ok, i will try tomorrow. My method of trying will be getting my tanking gear (cant remember exact % mitigation now, but slightly above 400 def, i add 4.12% to parry, dodge, miss and block, in adition to agility or +parry /dodge bonuses) and go to deathknell, agro a level 1 zombie, and let him do +10k attacks vs me (just put a +hp / 5s item).

Having 59 lvls above the mob, i should have about 30% dodge, 30% parry, 20% miss and 25% or so block. Since the lvl 1 mob cant crit me, or cant crush blow me (lol), if your hypothesis is right, then i wont be hit, ever. Not a single time (i block more than enought damage to fully block it). Will post the log then.

I think you are doing it the wrong way... it may be as such, that blizzard have implented a cap in reduction, only when you are X levels above the mob...
you should go test it versus "Greens", "Yellows", and "Oranges", for a better result, though this requires a healers time. IMO anyway :smiley:

Edit: oh, and kc, Shieldwall is just plain 75% damage reduction. on all incoming.

[Fleabag]

Yeah, I think it should be as close to an even con as you can manage to get accurate results. Which will require the time of a healer. Not to worry tho, Im sure many healers would love to get to the bottom of the mitigation mystery as well, afterall it affects them just as much as the tank. Albeit indirectly.

[stevethatsmyname]

not so sure about avoidanc cap, but i know for sure there is an armor mitigation cap (doesnt matter much for warriors though ^_^) 75% damage reduction, which is around 16k armor at lvl 60. It is a bit too bad, since because the way armor works, it is completely impossible to get 100% damage reduction. It would make a lot more sense to have an avoidance cap (dodge/parry/block)

[triqui]

I think you are doing it the wrong way... it may be as such, that blizzard have implented a cap in reduction, only when you are X levels above the mob...

Why only when you are x lvls above the mob? what is the point in not allowing you to be fully untouchable by a lvl 1 motled boar, but allowing you to be untouchable by Broodlord?

Problem is that i cant push my dodge, parry and block ratio to 100% vs a lvl 60 mob (since green are also "lower level" and you could never be sure that you arent in a "lower level cap")

i need a good addon for combat stats however. I tried with CombatStats but i found it has a HEAVY fault. If you fully block, it does not mark the attack as either a hit, or miss, or block.
When i realized this, i stop. In that moment my stats where:

Current dodge: 11.52% + 11.8%(extra def vs a lvl 1 mob)= 23.32%
Current parry: 15.12% + 11.8%= 26.92%
Current miss:9.12% + 11.8%= 20.92%
Current block: 9.12% + 11.8%= 20.92%

Total avoidance: 71.16%, or 92.08% with blocks

Stats when i stop:
Total attacks 275
Total hits: 42 = 15%
totall misses 76 = 27.6%
Total parry: 84 = 30.5%
Total dodge: 73 = 26.5%
Total blocks: 0. That is becouse the sucky combatstats did not count full blocks :S (note: i did not check, but im affraid that if you block, it will count it as both a block and a hit, fully messing the stats)

Assuming i would had blocked roughly same amount that missed (75 or so), then the stats would had been 350 attacks, and % hit would had be 12%, but then the combined dodge parry and miss would had been 66%. Maybe the cap is related only to full 100% mitigation skills (like parry or dodge)?. Need better tests (and with better tanking gear than mine :( )

I'm really interested about this test, would like if someone with higher parry / dodge goes to a lvl 1 mob, demoshout it, and let him do 1k++ attacks (with an addon better than the sucky combatstats), and publish the stats here. Will be nice to see a couple of tests (vs lvl 1, lvl 10, lvl 20 and lvl 30 for example) to see if we find some lvl cap also. It would be specially nice if someone manage to get more than 100% with parry, dodge and miss only (to see how it relates to block)

[rmvetski]

this thread is captivating

[kcma]

this thread is captivating

it was until Sasja showed up... something else is captivating me now... i hope LLynny isnt mad... but where is LLynn anyway?

[Amiral]

Why only when you are x lvls above the mob? what is the point in not allowing you to be fully untouchable by a lvl 1 motled boar, but allowing you to be untouchable by Broodlord?


That would be because you most likely can not get full avoidance against level 60 mobs..
and really, blizzard do does some strange things.
+2-3% hit extra (above the regular 5%) required not to be able to miss a level 63 mob? since when did 3*5*0,04=3?

btw, is Resistance Avoidance?
you do resist more than 60% of enemy spells, if you are high enough.

[Gaelan]

+2-3% hit extra (above the regular 5%) required not to be able to miss a level 63 mob? since when did 3*5*0,04=3?



As far as I know, you only need 6% on a lvl63. 5% base + .20 x 3 levels = .6 extra you need to overcome.


Edit: If I was to make an educated guess, I would lean towards the notion that only full mitigition skills would be involved in any cap. Blocks are more or less an extension of armor, so I just feel that wouldn't be part of a cap. I could see parry, dodge, and missing as part of a cap however.

[Marlan]

While mathematically, the value of more armor keeps increasing the "practical value" of armor does diminish.

Example. Your example of of the mob who hits for 100 damage every second is mathematically correct, but not relevant to anyone's life at level 60+. Let's instead think of a raid boss comparable to Broodlord Lashlayer. He hits for 4000 every 2 seconds. Assume you have 6000 life.

Example 1-
2750 armor 33% armor reduction
4000 2 seconds
4000 4 seconds
Dead

Well, he just 2shotted you. Maybe you should wear plate armor instead of the leather you were wearing.

Example 2-
5500 armor 50% armor reduction
2664
2664
2664
Dead -1992 HP

By putting on plate, you died in 3 hits instead of 2 and bought yourself 2 seconds of life! Maybe if we can just scrape up another couple of thousand armor we can make a big difference in the way the fight goes.

7828 armor 57.8% armor reduction
2312
2312
2312
Dead -936 HP

So, you killed yourself getting gear with more Armor on it than Defense and added a full 2,329 armor! Awesome! And now... instead of 3shotting you, he... still 3shots you. Grats. You added a ton of armor and didn't buy yourself even 1 second of life. Your armor mathematically absorbed a little more, it's true, but all that means is you got overkilled by a little less. (-936 instead of -1992) Your armor aborbed "more", but who cares, because you still died in the same three hits. Now, maybe, MAYBE, a power word shield might have barely saved you where before it wouldn't have. On the other hand, if you'd traded the armor for more Stamina, you could have obtained the same effect.

This is why people say that once you get to a certain armor value, in the 8000 range or so, there is diminishing returns on the PRACTICAL value of armor, and Defense starts to become king. This Broodlord example is exagerated to show my point, a LITTLE, but the principle is sound. At some point, you're going to be killed in the same number of hits whether you have 65% absorbtion or sacrificed like crazy to get more armor and get yourself to get 71% absorbtion, because that extra 4% is NOT going to save you from crits.

CRITS. What DOES become important is to stop spike damage, and that means stopping crits. And THAT means +defense. Your healers don't care if you're taking 2445 damage with more armor instead of 2650 damage every hit. What we DO care about is if you take a giant crit for 4890 out of no where and DIE. The surprise hell of a crit damage spike on a tank means certain doom no matter how much armor you have. Your healers can heal 2650 every hit as easily as we can heal off 2445. There is NO difference in those numbers to us. What we can't heal off are the fatal surprise crits you're taking when you have high armor but low Defense. This is why Defense, not Armor, is what matters on bosses that hit stoopid hard in BWL, AQ40 and beyond.

[Kail]

The issue you're ignoring is that more armor = less damage = less healer mana used (assuming, of course, your healers can scale their casts to what you're needing). Mitigating spike damage is important, but while you can reduce the frequency of crits down to practically never-happens, you can't do anything, at all, about crushing blows. Once you get enough defense that crits are something you don't have to worry about, there is no reason not to get more armor.

No one's telling you not to get +defense, but there is a point where even that most vaunted of tanking stats reaches a point of diminishing returns.

[Havoc Jack]

Marlan, if you take a look at the first two pages of this thread, your objections have been noted and discussed.

Nobody's telling you not to get defense. We're saying you shouldn't ignore armor completly when selecting new gear. And if Hydro doesn't think there are major sacrifices necessary to push your armor past 7000, then I'm loathe to disagree with him. He has more raid experience than most of us.