Strength, Agility and you!

[SpiritWalker]

I just posted this on the official Blizzard Suggestion forums, but I doubt it get a lot of attention and/or constructive replies. So wanted to know what some people here think.


Lately I've had the feeling that Strength compared to Agility is somewhat of an inferior attribute. This made me look in to how important both stats are for what classes and how logical some bonusses from the stats are.

Strength does the following:
- Increases your attack power with melee weapons.
- Increases the amount of damage you can block with a shield.

And Agility:
- Increases your attack power with ranged weapons.
- Increases your armor.
- Increases your chance to score a critical hit with a weapon.
- Increases your chance to dodge attacks.
- Rogues gain a much stronger bonus to dodge from agility than other classes.
- Hunter & Rogue: Increases your attack power with melee weapons.
(http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/characters.html)

Now Strength is obviously made for Warriors and Paladins (maybe Shamans too somewhat) and Agility for Rogues and Hunters (seeing as how the last two gain extra out of Agi over other classes).

I could argue that Rogues and Hunters have an unfair advantage, because they get everything damage-wise out of 1 attribute, but I am not going to do that, what I want to point out is that Agility already gives enough bonusses as it is (6bonusses). What I suggest is that 1 of those bonusses gets transferred to Strength.

The bonus I am talking about is the increasement of armor. To me it doesn't sound logical for an attribute that identifies itself with the Rogue and Hunter class to give armor value. Armor value is something that is important to the Warrior and the Paladin (and some degree a Shaman), so why isn't this bonus on the Strength attribute?

Another thing is when you look at what Agility and Strength stand for it doesn't really make sense either that Agility would give armor value over Strength.
- a·gil·i·ty - The state or quality of being agile; nimbleness.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=agility)
- strength - (2)The power to resist attack; impregnability.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=strength)
Agility has nothing to do with damage reduction, whereas you can clearly see from the meaning of Strength that it is about resisting attacks/damage.

So my suggestion is change the armor bonus from Agility to Strength, because it more useful for the classes that rely on Strength as their main attribute. It makes more sense to the actual meaning of the words. And last it evens out the bonusses among these 2 main attributes more.

I hope you, Blizzard, are able to see the logic and are able to work with it.

~Feaxhar, Ronin.

Edit: don't move this topic to the suggestions forum as I posted it here for discussion, not for suggestion.

[Nork]

agreed totally and 100% of the way. It does not make any sense to have armour rating put into agility, considering that how strong someone is would determine how much armour they could throw on and carry. But at the same time. The more armour you do where, the greater it affects your ability to move. Unless the person is, somewhat, agile. determined by agility and so that would explain why AC is determined by agility.

[SpiritWalker]

The more armour you do where, the greater it affects your ability to move. Unless the person is, somewhat, agile. determined by agility and so that would explain why AC is determined by agility.
I would say this would lean towards the bonus of dodging, the more you can move in your armor, because of your agility, the more attacks you can dodge.

[snowieken]

And on top of that, Nork, AC bonus from strength shouldn't necessarily be related to the amount of armour you wear. A strong person could resist blows a lot better than a fragile one, even if they are wearing the same amount of armour or nothing at all.

Yeah, it's a good point, Spiritwalker, and I agree. The chance to dodge or avoid being hit should indeed be determined by Agility, but when you do get hit, Strength should kick in.

[Nork]

hmmmmm, yes. i think that we have reached an even of two odds. if there was a way to split AC with both aspects, that it would even things out abit. But it would seem that AC is judged by a persons nimbleness rather than there strength. It does not take some one like Conan to jump around in cloth or leather armour. Nor does a Cat have much chance of jumping around in its usual feline-eskness when it it wearing a tonne of plate armour. But a delicate balance of the 2 would have Conan jumping around like a Cat with plate armour, cloath cloke, leather booties and mail in the post box.

[Cadineal]

Plus someone needs to explain to me plate or mail armor that gives you more agility than say cloth or leather.

[Algamonn]

Because:

1. Whether you dodge a blow or deflect it you are basically avoiding the blow, so it both can be seen as armour, from a certain point of view.

2. Rogues can only wear leather...they have to be able to deflect blows at higher levels or they will be killed with one hit.

The only other way to do it would be to make the rogue with a high agility rating dodge almost everything. Problem is, would you want to roll a character who can be killed with one hit due to poor armour? Even if they have high strength, they are not going to be able to deflect high level blows only by strength. If you were level 60, would you go into a high level instance with no armour hoping you can stay alive through strength alone?

[SpiritWalker]

1. Whether you dodge a blow or deflect it you are basically avoiding the blow, so it both can be seen as armour, from a certain point of view.
Yeah, but deflecting, or resisting, is not an agility attribute, it is one of strength, as the dictionary says.

2. Rogues can only wear leather...they have to be able to deflect blows at higher levels or they will be killed with one hit.
Rogues dodge, they aren't meant to be able to take damage. That's why it is silly to give a armor bonus to a stat which is used a lot by classes that don't need armor.

The only other way to do it would be to make the rogue with a high agility rating dodge almost everything. Problem is, would you want to roll a character who can be killed with one hit due to poor armour? Even if they have high strength, they are not going to be able to deflect high level blows only by strength. If you were level 60, would you go into a high level instance with no armour hoping you can stay alive through strength alone?
Rogues gain extra dodge out of agility over other classes, you average rogue dodges 3 to 4 times as much as a normal other class. Dodge is a logical bonus for the attribute agility and it fits the classes that need agility.

What's wrong is that classes who focus on Agility also gain armor, now I am not saying they don't need armor, but they depend a lot less on it than forsay a warrior or paladin does. So why put a bonus they, a rogue and hunter, don't really need on their main attribute? Whereas warriors and paladins who depend on armor, get nothing added to their armor with their main attribute.

When you look at a lot of tanking gear and plate drops from MC, BWL, AQ etc you will find they always have more strength on them than agility.

[Algamonn]

So in your view its ok for a top-level rogue to walk into an instance, and just by pure mathematics and bad luck, not dodge the first blow and get killed instantly. Doesnt sound like much fun to me. For it to be playable, you would have rogues with jedi-like agility. Just as unrealistic as agility adding armour.

It works the way it does because Blizzard have to balance realism with playability. For example, how can one sword do 1 damage per second, but another do 100 just because its got a fancy name? They are both made from metal! I am not including enchanted items in that statement.

I think we need to suspend our disbelief a bit, and realise it is a game that isnt going to make total sense when you dissect it - but it works as a whole.

[Gaelan]

From a Warrior perspective, Strength is still more desireable than Agility. Strength offers a higher DPS per point than Agility does for us, generally in a 2 to 1 ratio in overall effectiveness (remember also Warriors get 2 attack power points per strength point).

Every 20 Strength (or 15, I'm not exactly sure) adds 1 block point, which although is small, when you are getting MC gear you'll be in the 300s for Strength, which is a decent amount when you realize you block often with Shield Spec + 1 point in Improved Shield Block. Against a boss you generally can block about half the time if you are using Improved Shield Block every time its up. Blocking is underrated, in my opinion.

The other half of tanking of course is aggro, and although abilities like Sunder Armor and Revenge are where much of your aggro is generated from, your white DPS also contributes much, which again, for a Warrior our highest source of DPS comes from Strength.

Agility is nice, it'll add a bit of Armor and some Dodge for tanking, a bit of Critical hit for DPS and holding aggro, but Strength point for point for us is more important between the two.


Edit: Also, plate itself provides so much armor, the armor bonus from Agility is negligible.

[DotComm]

You don't play a rogue do you SpiritWalker? My guild tanks have a good 7k - 8k hp. Fully buffed, I have around 5k if I've got an imp. One cleave and I'm dead, and I don't get so much healing because the warriors have priority. I have to stay alive somehow.

Plate armor has a much higher AC than the bonus rogues and hunters get from agility. Dodge for rogues is next to useless in end game pve (apart from to miss the occasional cleave) and undesirable in pvp. And hunters in pve should be 41 yards away and so not getting hit at all.

A more pressing issue is the abundance of agility plate items. I mean, how on earth can a suit of plate armor make you more agile? I'd love to see warriors forced to wear some mail items if they want more crit and dodge, but that's never gonna happen. There are some DPS mail items that warriors are after though, wristguards of true flight from domo's chest in MC spring to mind. But imo there should be less items like Helm of Endless Rage.

SB

[Algamonn]

Totally agree DotComm.

In fact, I think that plate items should have a NEGATIVE effect upon agility, seeing as they provide so much armour protection. And that they are, after all, meant to be heavy and immobile tanking objects.

[Gaelan]

I don't know of any plate item with blue or better quality that has more agility than strength. All that agility doesn't even increase our DPS as much as a same amount of strength, so complaining about it is not relevant. Agility basically serves the Warrior with slightly higher burst damage, as in slightly higher chance to critical hit offensively, and the slight higher chance to dodge, although if a Warrior is wearing items with a decent amount of +Agility, they aren't counting on the dodge for anything.

Also, if you notice, pure tank gear (Might, Wrath) do not have agility of any kind. So your maintanks won't have much if any +agility.

[DotComm]

I agree there. I used to play a guardian (read: tank) in EQ2. Every item had a weight and of course the heavy plate armor and big tower shield I had were some of the the heaviest armor you could get. The heavier the stuff you were carrying, the slower you moved. I was always at the back of our group when we went out raiding! While this is a little over the top for wow, perhaps introducing an agi penalty would do the trick sufficiently.

SB

[Gaelan]

Do you guys understand what I'm saying?

Reducing agility for tanks will do nothing because tank gear has no agility! It only has strength, stamina, defense, parry/dodge/block, resists. No agility.


Each class already makes use of stats differently. There is no need for a penalty. Rogues need less Agility to dodge than Warriors. I.e. Warriors have a penalty in comparison to rogues on how much agility they need to dodge.

Edit: You are perceiving an imbalance where there is none.

[DotComm]

Tanks no, but warriors don't have to be tanks. They can play DPS as well. In which case, a 60 warrior needs 20 agi for 1% crit. A 60 rogue needs 29 agi for 1% crit. And a 60 hunter needs a whopping 54 agi (I think) for 1% crit. Crit is so much more important than dodge. Now where's the penalty?

SB

[SpiritWalker]

You don't play a rogue do you SpiritWalker? My guild tanks have a good 7k - 8k hp. Fully buffed, I have around 5k if I've got an imp. One cleave and I'm dead, and I don't get so much healing because the warriors have priority. I have to stay alive somehow.
Actually I do play a rogue also, that's how I came to all of this that certain classes benefit a lot more than others from their main attribute. It also makes zero difference in this whole discussion wether or not you as a rogue get insta-killed in high end instances, yes, you should die in 1 hit if Nefarion hits you, that is unless you dodge it, which also isn't very unlikely to happen.

Plate armor has a much higher AC than the bonus rogues and hunters get from agility. Dodge for rogues is next to useless in end game pve (apart from to miss the occasional cleave) and undesirable in pvp. And hunters in pve should be 41 yards away and so not getting hit at all.
LOL.. no seriously, you should talk to my GM who plays a rogue, that is apart from if he can stop laughing after hearing you say dodge is useless in endgame pve and in pvp. This is also beside my whole point..

A more pressing issue is the abundance of agility plate items. I mean, how on earth can a suit of plate armor make you more agile? I'd love to see warriors forced to wear some mail items if they want more crit and dodge, but that's never gonna happen. There are some DPS mail items that warriors are after though, wristguards of true flight from domo's chest in MC spring to mind. But imo there should be less items like Helm of Endless Rage.
Well, thank God there are plate items with Agility on them, how else would us none-rogue and non-hunter classes get our crit-rate/dodge?

[DotComm]

Actually I do play a rogue also, that's how I came to all of this that certain classes benefit a lot more than others from their main attribute. It also makes zero difference in this whole discussion wether or not you as a rogue get insta-killed in high end instances, yes, you should die in 1 hit if Nefarion hits you, that is unless you dodge it, which also isn't very unlikely to happen.

LOL.. no seriously, you should talk to my GM who plays a rogue, that is apart from if he can stop laughing after hearing you say dodge is useless in endgame pve and in pvp. This is also beside my whole point..

I didn't say dodge was useless. I said dodge is next to useless. Endagame pve, I don't tank. So I'm not getting hit directly. What I am getting hit by is AoE, which is undodgable. And cleave, which can be dodged and is great when it is. If I do pull agro, I have to hit evasion to stand a chance of surviving, so the dodge I already have isn't really worth a lot.

In pvp, can't dodge spells so it doesn't help against casters. Can't dodge ranged so it doesn't help against hunters. If I dodge against a warrior, it hurts, so I don't want to do that. It's useful against other rogues, but you'll just both hit evasion and gain nothing. Dodge is useful against palas and shamen and druids in melee. That's it. 3/8 classes. Whereas crit is useful against all classes, and armor is useful against all classes apart from casters. So dodge isn't really as great as Blizz think it is.

Anyway, my point is that the rogues need the extra armor to even stand a small chance of not being mashed by one cleave. Tanks have so much armor on their plate that an extra 2ap per agi isn't really gonna make that much of a difference. If armor was moved from agi to str, then the rogues would die even quicker. This way is more balanced imo.

Well, thank God there are plate items with Agility on them, how else would us none-rogue and non-hunter classes get our crit-rate/dodge?

They would use mail armor. You can move around in mail, although it's not so easy but a damn sight easier than moving around in plate.

SB

[Gaelan]

Tanks no, but warriors don't have to be tanks. They can play DPS as well. In which case, a 60 warrior needs 20 agi for 1% crit. A 60 rogue needs 29 agi for 1% crit. And a 60 hunter needs a whopping 54 agi (I think) for 1% crit. Crit is so much more important than dodge. Now where's the penalty?

SB


Umm... the penalty is that a Warrior with a majority of +agility gear crits like a girl, and hits like a fly. I already mentioned the fact that for DPS purposes, 20 Strength is about 2x as more potent in regards to DPS as 20 Agility. A Warrior gimps himself by favoring Agility over Strength.


You also have to remember that Rogues also get 29 Attack Power along with that 1% to crit for their 29 Agility. A Warrior with 29 Agility gets zero attack power with their great 1.45% Critical hit bonus. Hunters get 2 Attack Power for each Agility point (for ranged combat) plus the addition to Critical Hit %.

[Athame]

It's not really a big deal, since the armor bonus from Agility is minor. But I do agree with the OP's logic and conclusion.

[Raistlin Majere]

In fact, I think that plate items should have a NEGATIVE effect upon agility, seeing as they provide so much armour protection. And that they are, after all, meant to be heavy and immobile tanking objects.
Ever messed with real Plate Armor? Its far from immovable when you wear it.

As a Feral Druid, I favor Strength over Agility. Strength buffs my AP in cat and bear form like no other. The usual perferment with stats is Stamina-Strength-Intel or Agility, then spirit.

[Inferknow]

Anyway, my point is that the rogues need the extra armor to even stand a small chance of not being mashed by one cleave. Tanks have so much armor on their plate that an extra 2ap per agi isn't really gonna make that much of a difference. If armor was moved from agi to str, then the rogues would die even quicker. This way is more balanced imo.


I total agree with that. If you stick a rouge in any one of the battle grounds by him-self he would get ganked.
Hunters: They shoot you and you don't doge their shots to often. And if you get to close they wing clip and run and start all over again.
Warriors: They hit you when you doge and they could surrive until someone helps them.
Casters: All of their DOT spells and insta cast spells going up against the low health of a rouge, you do the math.
Even if rouges can do a good of damage their armor doesn't let them reach thire full power.