True Colors?

[babemomlover]

What's the first instance that shows what your character will really be like in end-game instances?


I mean, will dead-mines show you a little or, what?

[Magikhat]

well My person opinion is UBRS because most end game instances are 5 mannable.

Im kidding actually. You can pretty much tell what you will be required to do simply by your class and not an instance

Warriors tank/aggro
priests heal
pallys buff/heal
rogues dps/kick the sh*t out of certain bosses that heal
locks dot/spam shadow bolt/stone people and summon

etc etc

[Wintrow]

I guess yeah, deadmines will show somewhat of how end-game instance are. Except:
- Everyone is still learning the loot rules (no using Need for alts !!)
- Everyone is still learning pull techniques (warrior shoots his gun instead of charging in !!!!)
- Everyone is still learning their spells (no using Fear in instances !!!!)
- Nobody will wait for letting the tank gain aggro
- Everyone's fighting their own mob

Other than all that... yeah, it's SOMEWHAT like end-game instances :p

[Houdy]

i'd say.. back in the day we all learned what our classes and roles truly are when we hit Sunken Temple.
Before then (especially considering we were a first-run server and high pop at that..pvp to boot) we had tons of retards that thought their priests were main dps'ers, druids should be feral, shaman should be enhance, tanks should be arms/fury, rogues should go deep into the sub tree, hunters needed pets in instances..(i think most people knew locks and mages roles though..cant speak for pallys at all).

it was soon into ST that we were like "okay.. this isnt working, lets actually play our classes the right way".

having said that.. unless youre on a totally new server with 100% new people.. theres no reason that anyone should NOT know their role in WoW these days. the game has been out for far too long for people to not have read up on the best ways to play successfully.

so for me, my first epic character was a shaman.. i found out in ST that i should drop totems, stand back and assist in healing. Dont try to melee or cast.. we arent cut out for that in PvE.. and dont try to be the main healer..it isnt effective enough.

[Seeo]

i'd say.. back in the day we all learned what our classes and roles truly are when we hit Sunken Temple.
Before then (especially considering we were a first-run server and high pop at that..pvp to boot) we had tons of retards that thought their priests were main dps'ers, druids should be feral, shaman should be enhance, tanks should be arms/fury, rogues should go deep into the sub tree, hunters needed pets in instances..(i think most people knew locks and mages roles though..cant speak for pallys at all).

it was soon into ST that we were like "okay.. this isnt working, lets actually play our classes the right way".

having said that.. unless youre on a totally new server with 100% new people.. theres no reason that anyone should NOT know their role in WoW these days. the game has been out for far too long for people to not have read up on the best ways to play successfully.

so for me, my first epic character was a shaman.. i found out in ST that i should drop totems, stand back and assist in healing. Dont try to melee or cast.. we arent cut out for that in PvE.. and dont try to be the main healer..it isnt effective enough.

Spoken like a tr00 n00b. Seriously.

[bhroam]

Go Seeo!

my druid tanks scholo just as well as he heals...

The "way" to play your class is the way you are most effective. If the way you're most effective is a resto druid, or a beast spec'd hunter then you go that way.

A dire bear can have 17000 armor... can your tank?

OK enough ranting... back to the OP

SM the first instance you need REALLY good crowd control. This is probably the first instance that shows a good hunter from a bad. I had a party which was failing horribly until we got a good hunter... then we ran right through it.

ST is a good look into what look into what an endgame instance is going to be like. You need certain rolls to be filled well. A healer which heals well, a tank which can hold aggro... a rogue/mage who doesn't steal it.

I didn't do a hell of a lot of lower level instances because of my bad experience wtih Dead Mines. There were 3 of us... 2 20s and a 30 something hunter. For the most part the hunter killed everything with ease, but there were a lot of other problems. It wasn't until SM/ZF that I really got the feeling of what a good group can do.

[Morollan]

SM the first instance you need REALLY good crowd control. This is probably the first instance that shows a good hunter from a bad. I had a party which was failing horribly until we got a good hunter... then we ran right through it. I agree. Although having a 'lock in there is an absolute lifesaver as long as he knows how to use Curse of Recklessness properly.

[Bryant]

There is no one way to play a class. There is more then one way to take an instance, and probably faster ways than the typical/traditional way to do an instance.

People just have to come up with them. =P

I know that was a little off topic, but you guys were making it sound like there is only one true way to do anything.

[Zaratustra]

@ Bryant: surely, there are more ways of doing smth, but there is only ONE most appropriate and right way. if u are a priest,m u dont go shadow to dps, or if u are tank, u dont try to dps..and so on.
with my lock, i've done a lot of instances and i was even in pretty weird groups (like mara princess run with 2 wars, 2 shammies and me :P, or some other runs i dont recall now)). but in lower level instances i can actually go with some weird groups, what is not excusable later.

@seeo: he spoke all right. explain yourself, if u have smth to say. 'cause just saying :n00b is actually the n00bness.

@morollan: having a lock is a lifesaver also cause of banish :)) try run brd without a lock..

[Shellar]

try run brd without a lock..
Been there, done that. (In fact, one of the best BRD runs I've ever had was a 3-man team consisting of a warrior, a rogue and a priest).

[Seeo]

@seeo: he spoke all right. explain yourself, if u have smth to say. 'cause just saying :n00b is actually the n00bness.
No... it's not n00bness. If you know anything at all about this game, then you know MOST classes can be played UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE with a different tree than what most so called "experts" say. Apperently Blizz made 3 trees, but only 1 is good? No. Not true, and any who challenge that are filthy liars because they've NEVER experienced it. Because if they did, then they'd know almost any tree has it's uses.

This is coming from a guildy that approx. 75% of the players are not your usual cookie cutters. We do all the instances (Except Naxx) and we never run into any problems. It's different, but it's just as effective. And the guildies love it, because they're free to do what they will.

It's just a different ball-game, different game-plan... but when you get it down, it's different, fun, and just as effective.

@morollan: having a lock is a lifesaver also cause of banish :)) try run brd without a lock..
I've never run BRD with a Lock. Never needed one. I would still take one in a flash tho! I've actually seen a Druid-Only team take down BRD.

[Squishalius]

@ Bryant: surely, there are more ways of doing smth, but there is only ONE most appropriate and right way. if u are a priest,m u dont go shadow to dps, or if u are tank, u dont try to dps..and so on.
with my lock, i've done a lot of instances and i was even in pretty weird groups (like mara princess run with 2 wars, 2 shammies and me :P, or some other runs i dont recall now)). but in lower level instances i can actually go with some weird groups, what is not excusable later.

@seeo: he spoke all right. explain yourself, if u have smth to say. 'cause just saying :n00b is actually the n00bness.

@morollan: having a lock is a lifesaver also cause of banish :)) try run brd without a lock..
Wow, only one way? I guess all those guilds who have progressed in MC, BWL, AQ40, and Nax who have Shadow Priests, Feral Druids, Elemental Shaman, or Fury Warriors are doing something wrong then. I mean nevermind their progress beyond what you could ever hope to do but since you said they are doing it wrong then I guess they should just stop now.

All sarcasm aside your wrong. There is more than one way to do many things in this game. Even in endgame there is wiggle room in the way things are done. Depending on the level of skill and gear that wiggle room can be great or small, but it is there. I personally have cleared up to the 1st boss in Nax in a PuG consisting of less that 30 people. Granted that PuG was not like a normal one, rather all came from high end guilds but still the very fact that we were able to clear that far was pretty amazeing.

In closeing to you personally, I suggest that you understand that there is indeed a way to min/max groups and there are people/guilds who do it, some even insist upon it. However simply because it is done does not make it the only way to do things; time and again others who prefer do to things their own way have proven them wrong.

(Oh, and I've run BRD w/o a lock many many many times. Sure having one is nice but by no means required. Cleared to the bar once with only 2 mages and a shaman. Fun stuff. ;)

On topic real quick I'd say it depends on if you mean endgame as in Strat/Scholo/DM/etc or AQ20/ZG or then MC/BWL/etc. Endgame 5 man I'd say you can get an idea of what that is like once you hit your 30's and do some of the harder runs such as SM if your good. For others it might take a bit longer and you'll see what things are like in the later 40's in places like ZF. For small scale raids such as AQ20/ZG then your looking at UBRS to get and idea of what your going to be dealing with. Since the nerf of most of the higher end instances down to 5 man only it's not common to find raid groups for anything outside of battlegrounds these days. As such getting used to working in a raid vs a 5 man takes something like UBRS. Finally the 40 man raids are another matter alltogether. As many have said there is a huge change in the game at 60 and that is one of them. At no point in the game before is anyone required to do anything in such a large group and as such it really takes going there and doing it to find out what it is like.

[DrOsmius]

@morollan: having a lock is a lifesaver also cause of banish :)) try run brd without a lock..

My favorite BRD ever was me (priest) and 4 warriors...they never let me drink and often pulled more than one group at a time. Fun fun.

[Zaratustra]

ko, therea are different game plans and bla bla bla, but thjre is always only one winning strategy in each instance. and exactly this winning strategy is the most time-effort effective. its like, lets say, the flamelash in BRD: u can come to him where he stands and fioght him and adds there and u will also probably succeed, but its far simplier to pull him to the door and use a bug.then this boss fight is just as simple as piece of cake. thats a winning strategy. and thats what i mean. hopefully i explained myself pretty clear.

[Squishalius]

ko, therea are different game plans and bla bla bla, but thjre is always only one winning strategy in each instance. and exactly this winning strategy is the most time-effort effective. its like, lets say, the flamelash in BRD: u can come to him where he stands and fioght him and adds there and u will also probably succeed, but its far simplier to pull him to the door and use a bug.then this boss fight is just as simple as piece of cake. thats a winning strategy. and thats what i mean. hopefully i explained myself pretty clear.
Once again you are wrong. Additionally it sounds like you are quite limited in your experience not to mention are somewhat challanged your communication skills...and that's putting it nicely. As such I would advise anyone who has not allready figured it to to ignore Zaratustra until he gets a clue.

For you Zaratustra, I would recommend finding an all Druid Onyxia video and see if you can wrap your head around that before you do anything else. If the idea that a single class can defeat a raid level boss can't penetrate that layer of ignorance your sporting then I'm not sure if there is any hope for you.

[Ezzaral]

Once again you are wrong. Additionally it sounds like you are quite limited in your experience not to mention are somewhat challanged your communication skills...and that's putting it nicely. As such I would advise anyone who has not allready figured it to to ignore Zaratustra until he gets a clue.

For you Zaratustra, I would recommend finding an all Druid Onyxia video and see if you can wrap your head around that before you do anything else. If the idea that a single class can defeat a raid level boss can't penetrate that layer of ignorance your sporting then I'm not sure if there is any hope for you.
In all of your superior omnipotence, has the consideration that English may not be Zara's first language occurred to you? You needn't be a first-class jackass to disagree with the post.

[Squishalius]

In all of your superior omnipotence, has the consideration that English may not be Zara's first language occurred to you? You needn't be a first-class jackass to disagree with the post.
Capitalization, punctuation, and sentence structure are pretty darn near universal. Regardless of his language.

Broad sweeping statements like "omgz, there is only onze way to do anyting!#@$#@!" combined with a lack of communcation skills tend to indicate someone who will not read longer more constructive posts such as my 1st one. I wonder how many intelligent posts this guy has TLDR and then posted his drival?

All in all I thought my 2nd post was pretty fair considering how even keeled I was in my 1st. And if I were you I might find better causes to champion than my light flameing of an obvious noob.

[Oatmealsmurf]

Calling anyone a noob is just pathetic and serves no purpose.... we're all noobs at one time or another.

To answer the question I'll put it like this. You start really realizing the difference between playing a in a good group who plays their roles well (whichever role that may be not defined by class necessarily) by SM Armory/Cath and ZF. Library and Graveyard are really very easy still. A good group in ZF can clear it in 45 minutes... a bad one can be in there for hours.

And I've learned long ago that group make up is overrated... and classes can play different roles as needed. One of the best scholo runs I was on involved a group made up of Two locks, a mage, a Priest and a Hunter. We cleared the instance up to and including the Butcher (who was the first of the 6 we fought because we figured he'd be the measuring stick as to whether we had a chance to finish) tanking primarily with the two Void Walkers... then our Priest had to go and we replaced him with a Druid who instead of healing tanked the rest of the bosses and would pop out of Dire Bear to heal himself then pop back in. The best scholo run I ever had was two rogues, a lock (me), a Hunter, and a shammy. And let me tell you that shammy healed better than 90% of the priests I've played with... so don't sleep. In the first group we could easily have replaced one our DPS classes with a DPS warrior... and in the 2nd we easily could have replaced any one of the DPS classes with a shadowpriest... as long as they played their roles well.

The only thing is that once you have a warrior or a priest in a group they are always expected to play a certain way... doesn't mean you can't be effective playing another way.

[Squishalius]

Calling anyone a noob is just pathetic and serves no purpose....
Proclaiming things like, "but thjre is always only one winning strategy in each instance," is just pathetic and serves no purpose.
...we're all noobs at one time or another.
There is a distinct difference between a new player and one who would make the above such statement.

And I've learned long ago that group make up is overrated... and classes can play different roles as needed.

<snip>

The only thing is that once you have a warrior or a priest in a group they are always expected to play a certain way... doesn't mean you can't be effective playing another way.
Here is the rub of it and it's so very true. Again I go back to the all Druid Onyxia as a good example of how something can be done on even a high level.

The thing about this game is that since the ability to customize your character is quite limited is that a lot of people want to pigeonhole classes into things they can understand: tank, healing, dps, cc. Sadly they forget one of the ultimate customization is skill and experiance, and note those two qualities are not mutually exclusive.

Often when getting into a PuG with an alt I like to do a bit of light probeing to find out what I'm getting into. Like going in as a healer and finding out your tank does not own a shield. (And yes of course there is room in the game for DW or 2hed tanking but it's always disturbing to know that they don't even have one to equip if needed.) Or when you ask a lock to CoR mobs that will run and they ask, "What's that?"

[oderint dum timebant]

I think that up to SM you can mostly manage with pretty weird groups, higher if you got good ppl. but you will manage gnomer with the hunter pet tanking and other... interesting use of classes.

and yes, I know a druid who somehow managed to play healer and tank at once.

and Im still not able to defeat him in duel since he uses all shapeshifts (well except of aquatic shape ^^) fully. =(

and im a rogue XD so i mostly can beat the crap out of any druid.

[Zaratustra]

i will still stay by my statement: there is always one winning strategy. i agree, druid can tank and heal himself, but for what? why playing two roles, if he can play his native role, like either tanking or healing? in my guild, druids actually only heal.
the normal group setup will simply make life easier.

and btw, for the next time, try to rpove your point without calling someone a noob. it's actually pathetic.

p.s. forgot to ask: why am i challenged in my communication skills?

[Baboon]

Imo it all depends on you level and equipment and skill. You could say, in SM we really need to play as it supposed to be etc.

But now we do MC alot we can go to Stratholme and nuke the whole bunch down like it's some RFC run. Or in DM North, one of the mages could actually solo it.

Personally I felt WC to be a first instance where you need a bit teamwork, and SM an instance where you have to look how you move around a bit. ST can be very hard, but with good people you can Aoe nuke the whole instance fast. Some instances are fine with 2H warrior, some are a pain with a shield dude.

[Wasabee]

I think Bizzard has done a great job of making the dungeons pogressive in complexity and class defining encounters. VC / WC teach you work as a team for the first time. It has room for error and is alot of fun. As you get to SM / RFD you learn to play your class more. Each person has a chance to do "what they do." When you get to BRD and up...playing your class "role" becomes even more essential. My opinion is based on the understanding that you have "decent" gear, but not twinked. As you get better gear, more comfortable in your role and others, you can loosen the reins and "try new things out".

Once your gear matches your level those instances that were problamatic get easier and easier. (Strat/Scholo/UBRS are easy cheesy when you've got experienced players and purple gear...and even more easier when you do guild runs...)

So in conclusion, each run you do is one piece of the puzzle of how you ultimatley wind up running. You won't see a real picture till you are there.

[yavvy]

So I suppose you think that the Druid's forms are just for fun, to be cute? Do you think Blizz would have given us Growl, Challenging Roar and Cower if we weren't ment to tank or dps?

I've been nr 1 dps as Cat in UBRS, beating 2 Rogues, a Mage and a Hunter.
I've tanked every 5-man in the game without flaw, beating a Warrior on the meters in UBRS.

Healing isn't the Druid role, its one Druid role.
We can do all roles well enough with correct gear, as good as the parent class with the right spec.

Back to topic, I'd say that SM is the worst instance - few know their roles, and its more difficult than those before. After that it generally gets better. In ST you need better coordination than before, a bit like level 60, but I don't think its like 60... when you get to 60 instances is the normal, with solo being the break, while 1-59 solo is the normal and instances the break.

[Loriel]

Regarding what instance will first show your class' true colors, I'll put my vote down for Scarlet Monastery - in particular the Armory and Cathedral sections. For most players leveling up their first char, SM is the first "proper" instance. An inexperienced group's success will be greatly boosted if all group members play their core roles - defensive stance tanking, disciplined healing and focused dps. SM is also the first instance where some kind of crowd control helps a lot, as those Scarlet mobs tend to run away and get help :) This design concept is carried forward through ZF, ST and BRD - and the difficulty ramps nicely upwards.

On the subject of group composition and class roles, I categorically refute the fact that there is one (1) sacred tactic to every encounter. In fact there are several, and finding them out is part of the attraction. WoW would be pretty boring if there were only one way to defeat any given boss, and part of the challenge is finding ways to make the best use of what you have. Sure, ST is hard without some elements of AoE, and BRD can be a royal pain without a Warlock - but still it can be done. I know I've done it on several occasions, including other weird configurations - like 2-man Uldaman, 3-man Dire Maul, SM with only dps and no healer etc etc. Mixing it all up like this is part of what makes the game fun and challenging.

On class roles, I will never ever tell somebody how they should play, even in a PUG - unless it's strictly needed to advance in the instance or quest (or whatever we're doing). If it works, it's not my job to attempt to fix it based on class stereotypes. If a warrior can tank Drakki adds using 2H in Battle Stance, or a Priest can go shadow to dps-heal using VE, or a Druid will drop to tank or bear and dps/off-tank etc - it's all fine as long as we achieve the objective. If however things are not coming together like they should, only then is it fair to make comments and suggestions regarding how people should spec and/or play. Only experience will tell you what is the core problem in any given group, not some theorycraft notion that "only warriors can tank, druids and shaman should heal only, priest should not do dps" etc.

As you ramp up in gear and experience, you can loosen the reins on group composition and dynamics - allowing for more fun and variety in your groups. My basic philosophy remains that as long as the group gets the job done, my group member can do whatever they want :)

[Icefrost]

My basic philosophy remains that as long as the group gets the job done, my group member can do whatever they want :)
Could not agree more.

[Suave]

I consider Archaedas in Uldaman to be a real tester of whether a group of people have started to learn their stuff. He's one of the hardest bosses you'll face pre-raid.

[Oatmealsmurf]

Uldaman is too annoying to be counted in this unscientific poll. LOL

[Seeo]

i will still stay by my statement: there is always one winning strategy. i agree, druid can tank and heal himself, but for what? why playing two roles, if he can play his native role, like either tanking or healing? in my guild, druids actually only heal.
the normal group setup will simply make life easier.

and btw, for the next time, try to rpove your point without calling someone a noob. it's actually pathetic.

p.s. forgot to ask: why am i challenged in my communication skills?
Let me take a guess...

You've never done any raiding have you?

[Eid]

Come on guys, this is looking like the main boards!

Re: the 1st instance that gave me a feel for what end game would be like.

Personally I don't think there actually was one. They all help teaching you about your class, about other classes, about composition. Even the T0 items teach you about running something 100 times and not getting that piece of loot you need to complete your set.

To me the essence of being in an 'end game' raid is working with 39 other people towards a shared goal. It is exponentially more work that setting up a 5 man run just dealing with the other people make it so. It also makes it exponentially more enjoyable and I feel that come Burning Crusade it looks like we will be loosing this...

Eid

[Wasabee]

I am not one of those who in expressing opinions confine themselves to facts.

Mark Twain

[asigoth]

@ Bryant: surely, there are more ways of doing smth, but there is only ONE most appropriate and right way. if u are a priest,m u dont go shadow to dps, or if u are tank, u dont try to dps..and so on.

this is where people need to learn that theres a difference between roles and classes. A class is a character type that can perform roles. A role is something that must be fulfilled in a group to succeed. Many classes can perform multiple roles, and knowing how to perform all your roles and using all of your abilities properly is how you successfully create a group. If I bring a druid to an instance, I expect him to heal when necessary, dps when necessary, and tank when necessary. He/she won't have to do all of these things at the same time, but the person should know how to do them all when the time is appropriate. If I bring a rogue and theres humanoids in the instance, I expect saps if we're light on CC. The list goes on, but you get the idea.

and to whomever said Fear shouldn't be used in instances... it's generally a good idea not to, but if you're aware of your surroundings it's an incredibly valuable form of CC. Razorgore would be a prime example.

[mtgap]

Everyone is still learning pull techniques (warrior shoots his gun instead of charging in !!!!)

Apparently you are still learning pull techniques. I thought by now it was common knowledge that HUNTERS pull about a million times better than warriors :D sure, warriors don't start with aggro and have to take it off the hunter, but

1. Hunters can completely abort a bad pull and
2. HUNTERS CAN WEAR LEATHER, AND MAIL AT 40, SO IF YOU DONT TAKE AGGRO OFF THEM RIGHT AWAY THEY CAN LIVE, THEY AREN'T PRIESTS

[jrichard]

And apparently you are still learning group CC techniques. A hunter's ability to double freeze trap a mob is far more valuable to the party than his pulling in most situations. Generally, a hunter is only a better choice to pull when the pull has to be made at long range or the mob he's pulling needs to be kited while the group takes care of everything else.

jrichard.

[brage]

This is coming from a guildy that approx. 75% of the players are not your usual cookie cutters. We do all the instances (Except Naxx) and we never run into any problems. It's different, but it's just as effective. And the guildies love it, because they're free to do what they will.

Sounds awesome:) Unfortunately, you also highlighted a problem. Naxx. Until it gets nerfed, you're gonna need all classes to be as effective as they can be. Just take a peek at the "Naxx requirements for rogues"- discussion in the Rogue section. This means speccing for raid. No subtlety rogues, no shadowpriests, you get my point.

PS: Though, bear druids OT'ing Patchwerk seems to be a valid strat:)

[Leonavice]

I feel that SM is the first true indicator of how well people work as a team. Usually you can live without instances before SM. Not only that, SM is the first one that more or less requires a team to think about pulling properly. My worst pug so far was with a rogue, 3 hunters and me the priest. This 45 rogue thinks SM is a piece of cake with him at 45 and so he ran straight into the cathedral. Ever seen 20 Scarlet mobs beating up on 1 rogue?

ST is the first instance to have stricter requirements on how to perform your class role in a team. Before that, it's usually not fatal to follow your class design. But ST has different types of mobs to teach different types of CC in a team. Example, this is probably the first instance that teaches a priest the value of shackle undead. It's also the first instance that teaches 2 different types of CC, like shackle/sheep or shackle/sap in a single pull.

I feel that BRD is the first instance that teaches you to repeat instances due to quest requirements :)

[MadVlad]

Uldaman has that inherent quest repetition, too, and earlier.