A Shaman & H Palladin

[Criistii]

So, how do you think alliance shamans and horde pallys will influence the game? Both PVP and PVE. I know it's more or less fair that both factions have the same classes, but i am still curious about your oppinions...

[koriac]

It will boost horde pve dramatically, but not do much for alliance pvp :)

[Cthonctic]

Seeing that in the expansion the upcoming instances are said to be rather 5-man or 10-man dungeons rather than the huge 40 man raids we know now... I'm not sure there's going to be a huge difference.

In the end they sacrificed a portion of the lore for the gain of better balancing and less trouble while crafting encounters in the future. Now both sides have about equal conditions (yeah yeah, fear ward etc. I know) and thus hopefully the designers can focus more on making encounters a fun affair and tactically appealing rather than having to keep an eye on "is it going to work as well for Horde as for Alliance?".

Let's see how it fits into the general context of the expansion. It's not like MC, BWL, AQ40 and Naxx will be as in demand any more then as they are now.

[pinchy]

I don't really like it that much to be honest, it sounds to me like they finally gave in to all the people whining that one faction only class was better than the other.

It's hard to say what difference it will make to the new content until we see it and the expansion will make most of the existing stuff easier simply due to higher level characters and better gear available.

I'm quite interested to see whether they'll actually be that many horde paladins or alliance shamen, I mean only one race on each side can have them, which you'd think would limit the numbers.

For pvp, as a horde priest I seem to have more problems dueling shamen than when I face a paladin (purge is a real pain seeing it gets rid of your fort buff and inner fire), so I wouldn't say that the alliance don't get anything out of it, though maybe thats just because I have so much more practice dealing with paladins.

[Wint]

It defies the whole point of Paladins... not to mention tha most of the whining was that Shamans were too powerful, and yet Alliance usually have more players o.O ... but whatever. I LoL'd and then some. I can see an abundance of shammies coming when it's released. I'll probably be one of them ;p

[Naolin]

I'm so gonna roll a BE paladin, in the big picture of things I doubt it's gonna matter much though. Yes in the beginning you will see a lot of alliance shammies and some horde paladins, but after a while it will even out again.

[Mallstrop]

I love to see both factions being balanced, I can't think of any other way it could be done.

As for the changes that will be needed, a DPS group buffed by both a shaman and paladin, for PVP and PVE. Kings, Might from a paladin and windfury from a shaman, and probably some more that I don't know about. From what I can guess, both sides will probably face atleast a small Nerf for their buffs.

[Shellar]

In my opinion, this is the second best decision that Blizzard has ever made.

[Criistii]

More hybrids, IMO, will create more issues, at least for now. Hybrid gear doesn't exist, pallys shamans and druids are seen as healers, not hybrids. So unless they'll change gear concepts, more hybrids = more wineing.

[Valas Azuviir]

I'm quite interested to see whether they'll actually be that many horde paladins or alliance shamen, I mean only one race on each side can have them, which you'd think would limit the numbers.


23% of the average population on the US WoW servers are NE, 9% are Tauren.
Roughly, 9% of all the played classes are Druids. Looks like on average there will be more NE Druid players than Tauren ones.

So, one race with access to a class need not mean limited numbers at all.

[KalziEast]

Last time I checked on a few WoW servers it showed on almost all of them had NE's pop at around 33% of the population, and about 12% was Rogue's, and another 12% were Hunters. That's 24%/33% in just two classes. That's pretty much the same with Paladin's too, Paladin's are extremely populated, and you'd see at least 20 in the AH of Ironforge.

[Ashoran]

The offical boards are a cesspit of absolute rubbish at the minute. Even more so that usual. Its hard to find a thread that isnt about this.

As for my personal opinion, I think its a great move on Blizzard's part. The given lore irks me a tad, but for game balance its a masterstroke.

Petition to rename the thread to "Operation: Shock and Aura" starts here.

[Valas Azuviir]

Last time I checked on a few WoW servers it showed on almost all of them had NE's pop at around 33% of the population, and about 12% was Rogue's, and another 12% were Hunters. That's 24%/33% in just two classes. That's pretty much the same with Paladin's too, Paladin's are extremely populated, and you'd see at least 20 in the AH of Ironforge.

You have to keep in mind though, that generally those census sites, only talk about the total number of a specific class are on the servers. Not so much how many belong to race A, B or C. Makes it harder to make that 24%/33% argument, considering that initial 24% isn't just spread across that 33%, but also across the other races.

Hence, why Druid is a good example form. Only two races have access to it, and with the Tauren only having access to 4 classes, it would give us a percentage of 25% per class, presuming that each class is played in equal numbers of course. Still, going with the premise that 25% is indeed correct, that means that 75% of the druids are actually NE, or in other words 6.75% of the total player population is a NE Druid. That's almost a 1 to 1 parity with the entire Troll population on the US servers, who make up 7% of the server population.

[Vindictive]

Blood Elf Shaman seems like a weird idea :shocked:

[SkipsH]

Blood Elf Shaman seems like a weird idea :shocked:

Uh, I think you may have missed the point slightly

[Loriel]

A Blood Elf Paladin, however - now that is a weird idea..

Opinions are indeed divided on the "Alliance Shaman & Horde Paladins" issue, and I'm a bit divided on this myself. It's good news for game balancing and allowing for more varied groups (both 5-man and raiding groups). OTOH, it makes both sides almost totally identical - and they have really butchered the lore to make this fit. I would agree that game mechanics and balancing take precedence over lore, but ideally I would like both.

I've always had a soft spot for the Shaman class, but as I'm Alliance I've had little experience with this class up to this point. Got an alt to lvl 30 once, that's about it. So sure, I'll roll a Draenei Shaman alt - even if that is a pretty alien concept to me just now.

[Magikhat]

maybe alliance can actually win AV now

[Karkas]

Time to stack up on some cheap "Lightforge" and "of Elements" set items on respectively Horde and Alliance AH's now? :grin:

[Grendo]

Opinions are indeed divided on the "Alliance Shaman & Horde Paladins" issue, and I'm a bit divided on this myself. It's good news for game balancing and allowing for more varied groups (both 5-man and raiding groups). OTOH, it makes both sides almost totally identical - and they have really butchered the lore to make this fit. I would agree that game mechanics and balancing take precedence over lore, but ideally I would like both.
Lore was butchered with the creation of alien space ship crusaders (pewpewpew), and female NE Druids.

At least this way gameplay is safe. For now.

[brandondash]

I can't wait until Expansion Release + 1 month.

That is about when the hardcore alliance gamers will start hitting the end game with shamans and finally realize that the class really isn't overpowered in pvp and really is gimped in pve. That's going to lead to a beautiful flood of whining on the official boards, with the horde players spamming "I told you so".

It is also about when the hardcore horde gamers will start hitting the end game with paladins and finally realize that the class got completely screwed out of any dps options whatsoever. That's going to lead to a beautiful flood of whining on the official boards, with the alliance spamming "I told you so".

b-

[Naolin]

I think blizzard might change the roles of shaman and paladin now, because there is no need for the classes to be kinda a mirror to eachother.

Sooo we shall see what happens.

[degnar]

I can't wait until Expansion Release + 1 month.

That is about when the hardcore alliance gamers will start hitting the end game with shamans and finally realize that the class really isn't overpowered in pvp and really is gimped in pve. That's going to lead to a beautiful flood of whining on the official boards, with the horde players spamming "I told you so".

It is also about when the hardcore horde gamers will start hitting the end game with paladins and finally realize that the class got completely screwed out of any dps options whatsoever. That's going to lead to a beautiful flood of whining on the official boards, with the alliance spamming "I told you so".


lol. I have a feeling you will be right and this will happen regardless.

(But don't forget that the endgame we know now will not be endgame in BC. Everyone will have new skills and talents for 61-70, and endgame will shift to a different set of newer, harder raids. Hopefully Bliz will balance it to include shaman/paladin and not gimp us.)

[Seeo]

Seriously, I think they could pull something off without massacring the FEEL for the game. I mean, A Dark Paladin? Instead of Devine Intervention, why not Infernal Intervention?

Lore-wise, who says that WoW isn't a continuation of the lore, the development of the story. Why must they keep to the past, the story DOES go on you know.

And Shamen, if you read the books, shamen were not all that evil. The warlocks are evil. But does anyone really complain about warlocks? Nope!

[Valas Azuviir]

The warlocks are evil. But does anyone really complain about warlocks? Nope!

Actually, yes. But more in the sense that NPC interaction with Warlocks needs to be a whole lot less friendly and more akin to the: I don't trust you one damned bit, but I don't have anyone else to send to solve this issue, so you'll have to suffice, tone.

But we do strive to fight one battle at a time, so pointing out the weaknesses in this brainstorm comes first. :wink:

BE having Blood Knights and having them more Shadow oriented, as opposed to the Light as with regular paladins might just work. If, only that the Shadow interpretation of the Light, as preached by the Forsaken, is far more up the BE ally, than the Light is at present.

Course the Draenei Shaman link, after just having presented them as essentially the Warcraftian version of the Jedi, courtesy of their apprenticeship to the Naaru, is a wee bit odd as well.

But then again, as Metzen himself admitted, he didn't do his homework when he wrote that one up.

As any competent DM will tell you, always check your notes, when building the next adventure, so you don't contradict stuff you've established previously. And, if you do contradict yourself, make sure to make it the mother of all twists to cover it up from your players. (The pure Draenei = Eredar cousins was such a twist, the rest? Not as well done..)

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

(I know I'm cross-posting here, but...)

This is my opinion on the whole matter: http://darkhelm.org/2006/07/24/people-say-that-the-new-shamanpaladin-mix-for-burning-crusade-is-a-cop-out/

To sum up, I think it is a good move all around. People hate change, and so there will be friction, but I think it will work out in the end, and actually benefit both Paladins and Shamans, as well as help dim the anti-paladin hype on the Horde, and the anti-shaman hype on the Alliance.

[KalziEast]

You have to keep in mind though, that generally those census sites, only talk about the total number of a specific class are on the servers. Not so much how many belong to race A, B or C. Makes it harder to make that 24%/33% argument, considering that initial 24% isn't just spread across that 33%, but also across the other races.

I'm not talking about a census site, I'm talking about an add-on I had that took the exact amount of people that were on/have been on in the past month or so I believe.

[Valas Azuviir]

I'm not talking about a census site, I'm talking about an add-on I had that took the exact amount of people that were on/have been on in the past month or so I believe.

And where do you think those census sites get their info from. :wink:

[MadVlad]

You can filter on those census sites. They have information on exactly how many of each class for each race there are.

[skazz]

A few thoughts:

Let's assume paladins and shamans start to differentiate more. What direction will they take?
I reckon they will probably weaken the ability of shamans to offtank/melee and maybe give them some crowd control as compensation. Similarly, they might well decide to buff the paladin tank/meleeadin side, perhaps slightly reducing their healing capacity accordingly?
It will be very interesting to see how paladins and shamans will stack together in raids. Will they go to a system where both classes give buffs only to their own group, or a system where both sets of buffs are castable for the entire raid?

Next thing: When the expansion comes out there will of course be huge numbers of players starting the two new races. But the majority of the new races will probably be shaman/paladin. Just imagine all those 5 shaman alliance and 5 paladin horde groups raiding the level 1-60 instances!

I am willing to bet that from now all BoE shaman/paladin gear will be saved up rather than put on the neutral auction houses, as well. I'm sure we'll see paladins/shamans wearing all kinds of interesting gear the day they hit 60. Actually, thinking about it we'll see a roaring trade in paladin/shaman gear towards the factions which currently don't have those classes...

Another interesting question: Do you think we will see the first level 60 horde/alliance new classes before or after the gateway to outworld is opened on most realms? I'm assuming the "war effort" will last at least a couple of months?

[Loriel]

Let's assume paladins and shamans start to differentiate more. What direction will they take?
I reckon they will probably weaken the ability of shamans to offtank/melee and maybe give them some crowd control as compensation. Similarly, they might well decide to buff the paladin tank/meleeadin side, perhaps slightly reducing their healing capacity accordingly?
It will be very interesting to see how paladins and shamans will stack together in raids. Will they go to a system where both classes give buffs only to their own group, or a system where both sets of buffs are castable for the entire raid?That is indeed an interesting perspective, and it is one of the core reasons mentioned in Blizzard's official post about this change: The fact that they now no longer have to preserve the Shaman/Paladin classes as their respective factions' support buffers/healers, they have the freedom to shake them up a bit - hopefully for the better. They will still be hybrid classes, but they will probably be pushed in different directions in order to differentiate them more, like Skazz says. Whatever I or anybody else thinks about this concept is ofc pure speculation, but one option might be to enforce the Shaman's role as an offensive support class (i.e. towards Mage/Warlock), while buffing the tanking-abilities of the Paladin (i.e. towards the Warrior). They will probably suffer in other areas as a consequence of this, but I think the key aspect is that they will probably be more different than they are now.

It may be the case that this move can be seen as lazy balancing by Blizzard, but there's imho no denying that it opens up new possibilities. It's in the nature of MMOs to constanly change, and this is one of those major game-altering changes that players need to adapt to and simply deal with - hopefully getting some positive aspects in the process. The decision to bump the level cap to 70 was another of those major changes, but nobody seems to care about that anymore. Hence, embracing the concept of continual change, I will choose to keep my faith in Blizzard and remain positive about this issue.

Another interesting question: Do you think we will see the first level 60 horde/alliance new classes before or after the gateway to outworld is opened on most realms? I'm assuming the "war effort" will last at least a couple of months?Well, possibly - depending ofc upon the time span of the world event to open the gate, i.e. the "war(lock) effort". Blizzard will probably want this event to linger for some time, but then again I don't think they will want to delay the players' access to the new areas for too long. 1 month, maybe - ofc it depends on the nature of the event and the degree to which the progress is influenced by the player base. Heading slightly off topic, I think new servers will be severely hampered if this event requires a drop from Naxx (like possibly the Book of Medivh from Kel'Thuzad) - as their progress into Outlands will be delayed until they can cultivate a Naxx-capable guild (which can take a really long time on a new server).

Back onto speculations, I would think the hardcore players should be able to field a new 60 Shaman/Paladin in about 2-3 weeks, possibly less. Most people who are this serious about the game are probably in a large-ish raiding guild, so they have plenty of geared up 60s to help them out. Beyond the 1-60 grindfest they would still need to gear up some to be competetive in Outlands, so add maybe 1-2 weeks for that (given favorable drop rates). So yes, I'm expecting to see the first raid/Outland-capable expansion characters at around 1 month after the expansion ships. I'm sure some players will be pretty competetive about it and that they really want to be the first 60 Alliance Shaman or 60 Horde Paladin on their server. And there will ofc be an unofficial race to be the first to ding 70, which could take even longer time..

/crystalball off :)

[Criistii]

Well, I'm deffinitly make a Darnei shaman. Was planning on a Darnei mage before these news poped.

TBH I don't really know the Warcraft lore, allthow I am a big blizzard fan. That's why I don't care.

I feel the changes are good, as stated above, allow different directions for the 2 classes.
And the fact that the Darnei are aliens? So what, space ships can be driven by magic. The Buring crusade is alien too. This is still more plausable than the fact that the Blood elves joined the undead.

I still don't like the BE's. I meen, I'd reather see Darnei in the Alliance (visually speaking) than BE's in the Horde, they simply don't fit in.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Heh, I don't really see that the Blood Elves joined the Undead. I think that the Undead and the Blood Elves both are "alliances of convenience" -- basically, they would be annihilated if they were alone, so they "play along" to fit into the Horde.

The Undead/Forsaken have pulled some colossal wool over the collective eyes of the Tauren (but the Orcs and Trolls seem to not be so certain), with the whole "we're wanting to cure ourselves" self-pity line. But if you've ever done any of the quests for the Undead/Forsaken, you'd know that it is far from the truth. The Undead seem to be, if anything, working on a way to increase the numbers of the Forsaken, rather than attempting to cure themselves of being undead.

The Blood Elves, from what I remember being told at BlizzCon, and what is able to be read on the Burning Crusade website... these are really messed up Elves. They basically are drug addicts, needing a fix, more or less. They are twisted, and spiraling out of control into further depths of depravity. However, for them to survive on Azeroth, or have *any* chance of getting to their new "promised land" of the Outlands, the Blood Elves needed allies. There's no way in hell they'd side with the Alliance... they've burned too many bridges. So, they sided with the Horde. Not because they agree with the Horde (and I'd not be surprised if the Blood Elves and Forsaken end up being "unfriendly" faction to each other -- the one with orange names -- in order to show their innate problems with each other), but because they won't side with the Alliance. The Blood Elves, more than the Undead, would (at least to me) seem like a race that would be ready to turn against the Horde if given the opportunity.

Just because you are "allies" with another race, doesn't mean everyone's happy. The US and Allied forces were allies with the Soviet Union in World War II, but that didn't mean we completely trusted them, or even liked them.

[birdeye]

I am still kinda mad about the change but I'm going try not to rant to much. I know blizzard says this is a way to balance shaman & paladins, but how much since does it make for a blood elf to be paladin?

To me the entire change looks like a cheap way to fix class balance as well as a cheap way to add a new class to each faction. It would have made more sense if they add Death knight to the horde and maybe a new caster class to alliance.

I am weary of th cahnge but I guess I will have to just give it a chance, but needless to say I do not plan on creating a Blood Elf Pally.

[Ashoran]

The whole point of giving each faction access to all classes is so they can make the Shaman and Paladin different from one another. Right now each of hose classes has to be the counterpart of eachother and fulfill the same role.

Giving the Horde Death Knights instead of Paladins just means that they have to make sure Death Knights are the counterparts of Paladins, falling back into the same trap. Might aswell just call them Paladins and stop pretending.

[Grendo]

I am still kinda mad about the change but I'm going try not to rant to much. I know blizzard says this is a way to balance shaman & paladins, but how much since does it make for a blood elf to be paladin?How is anyone using this lore argument still? Are we playing the same game? Many of the 'lore' factors were butchered a long time ago. If you werent one to be complaining before this announcement, Im not sure how you have any right to now. :shocked:

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I am still kinda mad about the change but I'm going try not to rant to much. I know blizzard says this is a way to balance shaman & paladins, but how much since does it make for a blood elf to be paladin?

It isn't to "balance shamans & paladins" together, it is to finally stop the artificial implied balancing that was almost mandated in the current situation. It is to make the two classes finally be able to stand on their own feet, without being directly compared to each other. It is to allow for the same opportunities between the Alliance and Horde factions in everything, PvP or PvE.

To me the entire change looks like a cheap way to fix class balance as well as a cheap way to add a new class to each faction. It would have made more sense if they add Death knight to the horde and maybe a new caster class to alliance.

It is a cheap way to fix faction balance. It is also probably the simplest and best way to work towards that. Like someone else mentioned, the Death Knight would just raise the exact same problems as the current shaman vs paladin issue brings.

I am weary of th cahnge but I guess I will have to just give it a chance, but needless to say I do not plan on creating a Blood Elf Pally.

Then don't, after all, the options aren't for everyone. Making more options, making the system more able to provide distinctions between shamans and paladins (currently, when developing things like end-game content, shamans and paladins have to be lumped together, so that Horde and Alliance have equivalent chance of success in the content) can only be a good thing.

How is anyone using this lore argument still? Are we playing the same game? Many of the 'lore' factors were butchered a long time ago. If you werent one to be complaining before this announcement, Im not sure how you have any right to now. :shocked:

Exactly, Blizzard always reserves the right to modify (and retcon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon)) its lore for any of it games. It sort of is their right and privalege, since, well, they kind of made it all up in the first place. We might disagree or not like the changes they make, but after a while, their changes have, for the most part (in my opinion) made for a more interesting game world.

[KalziEast]

They better make it before the expansion comes out that it's opened, because I don't want to buy the expansion just to wait for my new areas to open, that'd be frickin rediculous.

[KalziEast]

Well, I'm deffinitly make a Darnei shaman. Was planning on a Darnei mage before these news poped.

TBH I don't really know the Warcraft lore, allthow I am a big blizzard fan. That's why I don't care.

I feel the changes are good, as stated above, allow different directions for the 2 classes.
And the fact that the Darnei are aliens? So what, space ships can be driven by magic. The Buring crusade is alien too.

Just so you know, when they first said that Dranei were joining the Alliance, they had a story about how Dranei are lovers of the light, and how the light has been with them for something like, thousands of years. Then all the sudden "Oh, wait, no... Uhh, we were just saying that so we could make up the reason why the Alliance would take them in."

[Athame]

Now that the faction balance is going to focus on the only difference left, racials, I wonder what they'll do with them. I bet they're going to rework them to some degree. I'd love to see the races with weaker racials getting something substancial, specially with the new silence racial and all. Somehow I think it's nicer that everyone is a bit different than the other faction rather than just one class that sticks out on each side. Maybe they should add a few racial spells to each class like the priests have.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Now that the faction balance is going to focus on the only difference left, racials, I wonder what they'll do with them. I bet they're going to rework them to some degree. I'd love to see the races with weaker racials getting something substancial, specially with the new silence racial and all. Somehow I think it's nicer that everyone is a bit different than the other faction rather than just one class that sticks out on each side. Maybe they should add a few racial spells to each class like the priests have.

I forget which Blizzard dev said that the racial differences are going to be accented, by expanding upon the idea already in place for Priests with 'racial spells', to be racial-specific abilities/spells for every class. I also remember at BlizzCon it was mentioned that they were going to be revising/reviewing the racials with the expansion, to see just how useful/benefitial they are or aren't, and possibly do some adjustments accordingly.

[KalziEast]

I think in Burning Crusade they should do what I've been wanting for months and months. Slight "adjustments" to your level, like, +attack speed and +movement speed (and maybe +spell speed) as an automatic racial that upgrades as you level, and eventually you have to quest for "faster legs" and stuff. Something like:

Level 1: You have no clue how to use your weapon and your legs are small and weak.
Level 10: You're learning quickly how to use your weapon +.5% attack speed and +.5% movement speed
Level 20: Your arms are growing thicker and legs are growing stronger from moving around and killing so many creatures +1% attack speed and +1.25% movement speed.
Level 30: The weapons are finally getting to be an instinct to you +1.5% attack speed and +2% movement speed.

Etc etc. I just think they should all have different names for each class and different amounts for who the person is. Like, Warriors, it should go something like "Level 10: You're just learning how to use your weapons, but your arms are beginning to bulk up a lot, +.25% attack speed +.25% bonus to your weapons damage." and for their legs call them something like "Powerful Legs" but for Rogue's call them "Quick Legs" and give them slightly higher movement speed bonus or something.

I just think it would be a nice improvement to the game, and I think at 60 you should automatically get your +attack speed and movement speed, but you have to quest for upgrading your talent in specific weapons (Which should be fairly easy, something like a trip to go grab the weapon from the Baron in Scholomance, it just all depends on which weapon you're upgrading, like, for Mages, it would be you have to kill Master Gandling and take his staff or something.) but when you do that quest, it gives you something like +5 skill to that certain weapon permanently, and you can do quests for 2 other weapons.

I haven't really thought it all out completely, but yeah, that's around what I think it should be.