AV strategy question

[satarina]

With 1.12 and all it's BG changes looming on the horizon, I thought this would be a good time to get some info on this:

After the last tweaks that Blizz did to the BG's, our server (Bloodhoof) has stopped the all-out epic battles in AV. You know, the ones that could last so long that you drop out, go to bed, get back up, eat, and get back into the same battle 10 hours later. Now, there is simply a race to the generals every time. I've been in a couple that lasted 15 mins. This is fine with me, though I kinda miss the fighting in the others, but my question is, do other servers fight for AV this way? With the cross-realm battlegrounds coming up, I'd like to know what kind of plan other servers go with, and whether the first few minutes of the battle are going to be taken up with arguments over strategy (though that's probably inevitable...)

[Xaero]

On my server (Spinebreaker), its always a battle in AV. The Horde can generally wrap it up in a couple of hours, but the Alliance always put up a resistance. None of this racing to the general stuff. We're in Battlegroup 7.

[Stigg]

On the horde side, my server generally does a race to the general. We generally send about 7 or so to IB to defend the racing alliance. Then the rest run north and start hacking away.

Unfortunatly, it is extremely easy for the alliance ot come from a FAR behind, by simply using the exploit of running along the wall of FW to the Relief hut and capping that. Many times, the horde is all the way to the twin towers and then we see our relief hut fall, general get called out, and that be the end of it.

I have been in one game that lasted more than 24 hours. I joined the game from the start at about 8 at night, played til 1am, logged out, logged in around 10am, logged out at about 2, and logged back in around 9pm....all to the same game. Every string was pulled out, but nobody was giving an inch. gy's switched hands every couple minutes, the field of strife was littered with corpses, many players had over 5k kills. Both giants were called, the air force had been destroyed... it was a mess. I don't even know who won that game. I logged out again at around 1. I think that was right after the latest patch came out where you got honor for being on the hate list. Im sure many of the players in that game went up a ton in FW rep!

[melliandre]

I play on Eldre'Thalas, and we usually have 2 types of AV games (and it usually varies about 1/2 and 1/2). The first type is where both sides just run to the general as fast as possible (and we usually finish in 30 min), and usually ending up in an Alliance win. (On ET the horde crush us in WSG, but the alliance tends to win AV, even though since the patch changes horde have been winning more)

The second game is where one of the two sides start turtling. Then the games tend to last about 2-3 hours, but not much longer than that. Usually who wins these games are much more up in the air.

My general AV strategy is once the alliance have a good foothold in IB and FW, let the horde take SH. THere is a lot less chance for turtlign that way. I've been in a game where the alliance went and took all the graveyards and it just lasted forever.

[Stigg]

Yea, leaving the opposing faction with a few GY's down the road is a wonderful strategy. Otherwise the horde ends up on th bridge for hours, or the alliance take a few hours to get past our towers. Either way, allowing the opposing team the ability to move forward is a sure fire way to help yourself win, or atleast, allow the game to be over quick enough you dont have to quit.

[Magikhat]

I play on Laughing skull. THis is the game always. Alliance loses. We suck i know

[bhroam]

I started playing AV after some of the patches went in to shorten the game. The longest game I've been in was I think 2:30.... I really don't think the game should be as epic as it was. The problem isn't who is better than the other... its at what point does one side stop caring and gives up.

As for strategies... If you can find a handful (not too many) people to stay on Defence, do it. The general is a HARD npc... you need quite a few poeple whose job is 100% taking him down. If the handful of defence, you can cause enough of a problem that they lose. Don't go after the MT... if you can stunlock a healer at the right time, the MT will die and your general will make mincemeat of squishy support team.

The big problem is finding those poeple who wanna get their ass whooped so many times it isn't funny... 5 vs 35 isn't that much fun. Just take solice in the fact that they don't get honor from you after the 4th kill =]

I totally agree with Melliandre: Give the opposing team a graveyard down the road... if you don't, they'll rez in the start room, walk out and cause you trouble. Like I said, the general's TOUGH.

OK one last thing befor you all scream at me to STFU. Use your trinket... I play alliance, and way the horde cause us the most trouble is when they realize no matter where they can rez, they'll be back on D within seconds of rez.

[klago]

Alliance used to lose all the time on my server. Now we have a few good priests and a couple really good warriors that can tank and hold aggro.

Now it's to the point where if the few of us get in the raid together we can do some serious damage.

[Steamboat]

I play on Laughing skull. THis is the game always. Alliance loses. We suck i know

I am on Laughing Skull (alliance) as well. We suck unless you time it right. P4L tends to run AV on Sunday night. Get in a match with them and start doing whatever Jamaal says (whether or not you think he's a prick) and it will be a win in 30 minutes. Sometimes really late on Sunday and Monday night Deus Vox will get in there, and it can be 5 or 6 ten minute wins in a row.

Since the last patch I've noticed that the horde seem to summon the ice lord almost every match, but the alliance don't seem to get the tree guy as often.

[bhroam]

IMHO the ice lord and tree lord aren't that useful. They are hard to drive well... and the summoning process takes precious resources away from the end goal: Taking control of FW village and killing drek.

If you're having trouble with the horde summoning the ice lord, then make sure to take snow fall graveyard. The summoning circle is just down the hill from IF. You basically go down the hill, whack the summoning circle with an AOE (even hunter's volley does enough damage). The horde get pissed, they kill you repeat. This gives enough time for more alliance to come over and kill the shamans.

[Leonavice]

Seriously just forget the ice lord and the tree lord and whatever cavalry/flying cavalry thingies. Just zerg and capture graveyards, leave either FW or SP GYs open for the enemy to capture so that your side can kill drek/van with little opposition.

I'm not sure about this but I think the horde are smarter in playing BGs than the alliance. In AV, the alliance can do stupid things like trying to destroy IB garrison without the IB GY or at least the SF GY. No, they like spawning at the SH GY whereas the horde has the much closer IB GY to spawn in. Then they complain the horde haxxors :rolleyes:

Both sides must realise that the key to getting most honor out of AV is not by having long drawn battles. The key is to finish the damn thing fast so that the next AV can proceed and the more AVs you do, the more honor you get.

[Grendo]

I'm not sure about this but I think the horde are smarter in playing BGs than the alliance. In AV, the alliance can do stupid things like trying to destroy IB garrison without the IB GY or at least the SF GY. No, they like spawning at the SH GY whereas the horde has the much closer IB GY to spawn in. Then they complain the horde haxxors :rolleyes: On my main server, AV is the only battleground Alliance win 95% of the time (without exploits), so thats not entirely true.

That said, I miss the pre-patch AV that took days at times to finish. Epic.

[Gyoza]

On my main server, AV is the only battleground Alliance win 95% of the time (without exploits), so thats not entirely true.

That said, I miss the pre-patch AV that took days at times to finish. Epic.


My server, Elune, is the same way.... Alliance wins just about every game.

And yeah, I miss the huge battles too. It sucks that they took that portion of it away. If you want fast, go for wsg... gimme back my epic slaughterfest.

Sure, you get rep a whole lot faster now, but that is why the rep rewards were so amazing.... the exaulted epics are greatness.

plus, going into a bg where you can walk out with 300+hks minimum = :cloud9:

[Oatmealsmurf]

300 Hks most of which don't count. AV was a big waste of time before. I liked it but what you got out of it didn't match what you put into it. You can still rack up 200 HKs relatively easy. Especially if you are part of a good 5 man defense team in your respective general's enclave. You can easily force numerous wipes and accrue a tone of HKs in the process.

[Grendo]

300 Hks most of which don't count. AV was a big waste of time before. I liked it but what you got out of it didn't match what you put into it.Sure, if you want to turn AV into an honor-farming fest, this is true. But what I 'got out of it' was the fun of the huge battles over hours, and sometimes days, just for the pride of winning. Thats long gone now and has turned AV into a grind like every other part of the game.

[Oatmealsmurf]

Well I answered it that way because why else mention getting 300+HKs?

Personally I found the old way more of a grind... just a grind without a reward. And I hated not being able to finish a battle I started. I think overall the changes are for the better. I get what you're saying and I don't like how in some games it just becomes a race with not much defense played but it's better than being in a game for 4 hours that you know you can't win but it drags on anyway.

[bhroam]

So there are the games which are a 30min race to the general and see who wins. Right after 1.11 came out, the horde on our server were swamped by the alliance doing that (not that they most of the time before). Now they've realized that putting a few poeple on defence and on mid-field defence can do an amazing amount of good. If you have 2 poeple roaming between SH and FW... all you do is recap towers or ninja graveyards... really pissess off the other side and forces them to send a couple of people out of offence to go deal with it.

5 or so poeple on defence if they can get into the generals room, can do an amazing amount of good.

I'm alliance and when we're dealign with warmasters, a popular place for casters/hunters to stand is the hill right outside the generals hut. There's a particular mage I've nicknamed 'crazy AOE mage' who loves to pop out, send off an AOE which completly covers the hill, and run back inside.... that's just enough distraction that a critical heal is missed and our MT goes down and we wipe.... or at least causes chaos.

An extra 5 on defence when trying to take down the general can do an amzing job if you can get into the hut. It doesn't take long for the offense of the other team to put a hunter or warrior outside making it hard for you to get in. But dps/healers don't like it when you get whacked with pyroblast or concusive shot... or just plainly battle charged.

It doesn't have to be a race if you don't let it.... of course if you do want to game the system and grind honor/rep as fast as you can, the 30min games do do that. You get some bonus honor win or lose plus tokens.... since that happens at the end, you want to maximize end of games. I personally think a 30 minute game is a llittle bit of a letdown. No real challenge. If they go on past 1:30... I think it's getting a little long.

Of course some of the best moments in AV are the longer games... when your enemy is on full D, and you all trinket back up, have a kickass battle and push then back.... and then hurry on down and win the game you were losing before.... just doesn't happen in the 30min race to the general games.

[Oatmealsmurf]

that's my take on it... incidentally when I'm on offense and we have taken the first aid station I don't contribute to DPS on warmasters... I just wait for Alliance to hearth back or ride back from the tunnel and fear them before they get into the general's room... I know it pisses em off big time and it's fun watching em run around aimlessly and eventually dying.

[moopy]

IMHO the ice lord and tree lord aren't that useful. They are hard to drive well... and the summoning process takes precious resources away from the end goal: Taking control of FW village and killing drek.

Icy is invaluable, it's all in the timing. Send the primalist out just as the SP GY has been assaulted and is being held pending a cap, and by the time you get him summoned, you're usually just about ready to cross the bridge into SP, these things always take longer than you expect.

Pinning the allies down inside SP is a lot easier if popsicle boy crosses the bridge first, the sheer mayhem he causes allows the assaults of the individual buildings to procede smoothly without too much interference, as most of the alliance players are trying to stop the icelord- about half of yours are probably supporting popsicle-san while the rest are "takin' care of bidness" inside the compound.

That said, on the rare occasions that the alliance has managed to get their ultimate unit out- dear old Woody Woodpecker- then we generally have managed to kill him by kiting him into the starting tunnel and letting the NPCs have their wicked way with him, it prevents him getting effective backup.

AV hasn't changed much cross-server for me, some games have become a rush for the generals, but often the good ol' choke points still exist for old-fashioned standoff battles. Those are fun.. mage runs in to AoE, gets silenced, cut to shreds, rinse and repeat.

[Ninox]

I prefer the Race, as I don't have the time or lifestyle to take on 'epic' battles like I once did. I do, however, miss them a great deal.

If I'm in AV from the start, I'm usually with the Offense, helping keep a GY secure, or mayby playing cat and mouse with some lone defender in the FW Towers. (stealth up, cap a tower, stealth up the other, cap that while the other is being investigated... sure, nothing of value was gained, per-se... but I've kept 4 idiots occupied for 15 minutes straight, while they scoured the grounds seaching for me. No Hunter or Lock, so it was all "Do I hear him Stealthing nearby?" Toss in a few random Imp.Saps and Distractions, and they were going insane by the end.)

If I get into the run late, I'll head right down to wreak havok in the other team's Offensive Line. (unless there's already 10+ down there... then I put on my riding gear and hightail it south) Scout out the Towers, and recap, if they don't leave sentries... Pick off casters as they sit to eat/drink with a CB Ambush.. or, my personal favorite, once they get down to 1 or 2 Marshalls left, hide in a corner and wait for the "All In" call. Keep hidden until the MT has Vanndar's attention, and a few Healers have started their spam, and Blind (and immediately Vanish) the MT, to watch Vanndar go off like an epileptic Pin Ball on the casters. Hit Prep, and wait for the Secondary Tank to get settled in, and do it again. I'll most certainly die... but I've seen a win come about from that nasty little tactic...

And, now... it's storytime!
I came into AV with both sides just starting WM/Marshal Pulls. Snuck in, waited out in a corner for the final pull while a Mage and Hunter did what they could to slow the advance down. Finally, a BearTank centered on Vanndar. I waited for the Priests to open up the healing floodgates, before I splashed blinding powder in the bear's face as I dropped a bag of flash powder to disappear in a cloud of smoke. The bear wandered about aimlessly while Vanndar ripped through both Priests and a couple of mages, before an Orc got his attention again. Then I put his lights out with another dose of blinding powder. Vanndar tore off to greet a few hunters and I found the attention of a warlock or two. The damage from the stack of DoTs kept flowing even after I re-queued in IF and turned in my 9-pack of Marks. Heheheh.

[Fynious]

Well, there have been many versions of AV. The current version post patch 1.12 is almost perfect. Some games were lasting to long so they removed the vast majority of the NPC guards. This was ok in the beginning as the fights were pretty much the standard fare, both teams rushing SF and the fight continued on from there with one team out muscling the other.

Now after 1.12 AV has turned into a PvE affair mostly. The Horde rushes up the Eastern slopes and the Alliance rush down to SF and then continue south. There are some fights here and there, the offensives trying to take out LTs, Captains, Towers etc. and small pockets of defense trying to slow them down.

I want to state right now I play on the Horde side. But this has nothing to do with Horde Vs Alliance. This has to do with the layout of the map and NPC’s. I think the terrain is fairly equal there are good spots and bad spots for offense and defense for both sides. But where there is a glaring difference is the placement of Lt and commanders and the placement of elite level NPC’s in the final bases as well as the placement and LOS of the towers in the bases.

The Alliance side has a huge advantage here. As an Alliance you can actually run from FW all the way to the General and not agro one NPC if you know what route to take. A small band of 1-2 people can take both towers and the Aid Station with much trouble at all. This can not be said for the Horde while they are taking the Alliance base. You will agro 3-4 times more NPC’s getting to the aid station which makes defending much much easier. Also you can not hide from Tower LOS and you will get hit many times by bowmen before you get past the aid station which is out of range for the towers.

Even though I’m complaining about the Alliance base I actually think it’s just fine. I think the problem is in the terrain and NPC placement in the Horde base. The Alliance should be made to “deal” with as many NPC’s as the Horde and the Towers need to have LOS to the front side of the base. A smart player can make it to the general without being hit, or many 1-2 times. Other then stealth classes you are going to get hit many more times as a Horde advancing into the Alliance base. The LOS goes from roughly the half-way point of the bridge to just past the flag at the aid station.

I can’t speak for other servers but on Burning Legion the Alliance almost never won when we didn’t race. Yes they did win from time to time but when it was a fair fight we won at least 70-80% of the time. Now that we are just racing (which I don’t care for since it totally takes away from the spirit of AV) Alliance wins about 90-95% of the time. Now I know we didn’t all transfer off and get replaced by different players so it’s something else.

AV needs to be looked at. There are problems with the game the way it stands. I don’t really want to go back to the 8 hour games but I also want a game that’s long enough to have purpose to things like taking mines, summoning riders, elementals, etc etc. As it is now it’s just rep/honor farming and has lost it’s fun.

[Cerberus]

Much more of a race nowadays indeed.

I think AV is a bit affected by new "generations" of players taking over as well. People tend to stop doing AV once they are done with rep. There's simply no reason being there for honor unless you can do it very fast.

From a horde perspective the main reasons Horde lose are:

1. Not knowing the power of the ZREG. Guess this goes for both sides, but the main point of AV is ofc to get to the other side of of the map. I even see people move backwards when the other faction closes in. Probably a lot to do with farming honor/rep..

2. Not defending SP once you capture it. A zerg is allways good, but all is lost when you lose everything behind you without even having destroyed towers. I've seen so many AVs restarted at IB from failing to realize that Horde needs to hold SP at the end.

3. Pull marshals from Vandar before you have the aid station. See above..

Taking snowfall is also a losing move most of the time for horde. SH can be almost impossible to get from this position. At least when people like to stay ranged.. Giving alliance some trouble getting SF at the start is good, but SH bunker should be your first goal, then the graveyard. With every alliance spawning at SH you get the 3hr field of strife/get up to slope battles.
Horde taking snowfall while attempting to reach SP very often turns the battle in favor of the alliance as well.

[Valroshe]

Hmmm I tend to disagree with all the people on here that say AV is not the way to go for honor and ranking up. I have been pushing for Rank 11 for a bit now and I have tried everything, and AV seems to be the fastest way to get honor. Not only do you still get a good amount of honor even if you lose, if you go D then in the 20-30 mins it takes for it to end you can rack up some nice HKs while doing you job on D. I dunno maybe it is my battle group but whenever I do AB or Gulch it seems that 8-10 times it is against an Alli premade and we end up getting annihilated and get NO bonus honor, so essentially all I am getting out of that wasted 5-10 mins is 1 mark. But with AV horde tends to win 8-10 matches and in under 30 mins. I watch the top honor guys (900K+) going in and out of AV constantly and with those numbers they gotta be doing something right.

On another note... I have what will probably be called a n00b question even though I am a vet to AV (Exhaulted plus ranks 8-11) I just never really bothered looking into it. When horde pulls marshals and we get more than one I have noticed that somehow the ones we are not fighting are getting some type off CC, it looks like a reddish little tornado wind funnel around them and it tends to hold them for about 5 secs or so unless someone hits them. What exactly is this and who does it???? I just have never seen it used anywhere but in AV and if it is an effect from a trinket or something I would like to look into getting one. So if you know what this is could you please post it here??

Thanks in advance

Var

[Fynious]

Hmmm I tend to disagree with all the people on here that say AV is not the way to go for honor and ranking up. I have been pushing for Rank 11 for a bit now and I have tried everything, and AV seems to be the fastest way to get honor. Not only do you still get a good amount of honor even if you lose, if you go D then in the 20-30 mins it takes for it to end you can rack up some nice HKs while doing you job on D. I dunno maybe it is my battle group but whenever I do AB or Gulch it seems that 8-10 times it is against an Alli premade and we end up getting annihilated and get NO bonus honor, so essentially all I am getting out of that wasted 5-10 mins is 1 mark. But with AV horde tends to win 8-10 matches and in under 30 mins. I watch the top honor guys (900K+) going in and out of AV constantly and with those numbers they gotta be doing something right.

On another note... I have what will probably be called a n00b question even though I am a vet to AV (Exhaulted plus ranks 8-11) I just never really bothered looking into it. When horde pulls marshals and we get more than one I have noticed that somehow the ones we are not fighting are getting some type off CC, it looks like a reddish little tornado wind funnel around them and it tends to hold them for about 5 secs or so unless someone hits them. What exactly is this and who does it???? I just have never seen it used anywhere but in AV and if it is an effect from a trinket or something I would like to look into getting one. So if you know what this is could you please post it here??

Thanks in advance

Var


Yes, that is why the horde usually die and lose when a Horde member decides to pull the marshals before you cap the aid station. All of the Marshals have cleave. It's an area effect damage that can hit cloth wearers for 1500+..

As for pulling the marshals, if you can get a hunter that knows what he is doing I have seen the marshals pulled in singles. This is the way to go if you can get people to listen.

These days though the only way I have won an AV with any consistacy is by having 2-3 groups made up of my guild. We charge down to SP, and then into the Aid Station. With the guild group we take down the NPCs quickly an don't aggro more then we have too. Cap the Aid Station ASAP, finish off the NPCs and guard till capped. Pull the marshals and take Van. Even with the guild group if the Alliance are focused on zerging south, there is very little the horde can do. All D does for you in AV is make you lose slower. Some D is ok to slow them down, and better yet a couple groups coming in behind to recapture the SF, IB and FW grayyards then hit them from behind when the Relief hut isn't capped yet is the way to really make their day bad.

Fyn

[Narak]

Ok, I've been playing AV for a while and always see 'Get the aid station, get the aid station'. Now for the noobish bit, wth is the Aid Station? Is it the gy nearest to the General?

Edit: NM found out on the thread below this one :embarassed:

[Kokolums]

I have a 60 horde and 60 alliance, both of which I have taken to exalted in AV. My observations:

Central to this issue is that current horde strategy is to "divide and conquer". They intentionally want alliance to capture SF GY while they capture SH GY. The theory is that they want to fracture the alliance into two groups - one rezzing at SP gy and the other at SF gy. The fear is that if alliance is all in one group, it is "too difficult" to push from SH GY to SP GY if all 40 alliance are north of IW bunker.

The big problem for horde with this strategy is that there is that the main road from SH GY to SP GY is long and narrow. That is PERFECTLY suitable for a small defense to bog down the horde's offense. On the other hand, there isn't any chokepoint of such significance that the alliance have to encounter once they have SF GY.

The obvious solution for the horde, however, is to NOT TAKE THAT MAIN ROAD. All the horde has to do is take either the high road that leads to the alliance starting cave, or the low road that goes under the Bun Daldar bridge. That chokepoint is OPTIONAL. It can be bypassed. However, I almost NEVER see the horde bypass it. They allow a small group of 10 alliance or so to completey bog them down for 10-20 minutes on the main road in a mindless zerg fest. And that is enough time for alliance to push to IB, FW, and then FW keep. By the time the Horde trudge thru that chokepoint, Drekk is almost dead.

And that, in a nutshell, is why alliance usually win AV.

Even way back when AV was a 8+ hour long epic contest, the best way for horde to win was to field a strike team of 10 players who would listen, bypass the fight on the road from SH GY to SP GY, and just take the SP flag.

[Kokolums]

Much more of a race nowadays indeed.

I think AV is a bit affected by new "generations" of players taking over as well. People tend to stop doing AV once they are done with rep. There's simply no reason being there for honor unless you can do it very fast.

From a horde perspective the main reasons Horde lose are:

1. Not knowing the power of the ZREG. Guess this goes for both sides, but the main point of AV is ofc to get to the other side of of the map. I even see people move backwards when the other faction closes in. Probably a lot to do with farming honor/rep..

2. Not defending SP once you capture it. A zerg is allways good, but all is lost when you lose everything behind you without even having destroyed towers. I've seen so many AVs restarted at IB from failing to realize that Horde needs to hold SP at the end.

3. Pull marshals from Vandar before you have the aid station. See above..

Taking snowfall is also a losing move most of the time for horde. SH can be almost impossible to get from this position. At least when people like to stay ranged.. Giving alliance some trouble getting SF at the start is good, but SH bunker should be your first goal, then the graveyard. With every alliance spawning at SH you get the 3hr field of strife/get up to slope battles.
Horde taking snowfall while attempting to reach SP very often turns the battle in favor of the alliance as well.

As I said in the last post, I've gotten exalted as a horde an alliance. When horde control SF GY, there are some horde that will actually start to lose interest because they fear a long game. But when you are alliance, and the horde capture SF GY, morale crumbles and alliance members start to give up as well. They fear they can't win.