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View Full Version : How +HIT and +Weapon Skill Works


Asmiroth
28-08-2006, 09:07 PM
I've seen a lot of questions about how these work. First off, for those technically inclined, the long answer is here. http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Weapon_Skill

For those who are not, let's have a go.

Things to understand @ 60.

Against an equal level opponent with equal skill (ie 300 Daggers vs 300 Def) you have an innate chance to miss of 5% on all attacks, skills OR melee
Equal level opponents have an innate chance to block/parry/dodge of 5%.
Dual Wield has a 19% chance of missing and only affects melee attacks. So 2nders/1hnd + shield aren't affected.
Attacks from the rear on NPCs cannot be blocked or parried, they can be dodged
Attacks from the rear on PCs cannot be blocked, parried, or dodged
Each point of difference between weapon skill and defense gives a 0.04% increase/decrease to MISS, DODGE, PARRY and BLOCK. Therefore, attacking a lvl 63 target increases your chance to miss and their chance to block/parry/dodge by 0.6% each.
Each point of +Hit decreases your chance to miss. It does nothing else but this.
Glancing blows only affect melee strikes, not skill attacks. vs a +1 Creature = 0%. vs a +2 creature = 25% for 15% damage reduction. vs a +3 creature = 40% for 30%. vs a +4 creature 55% for 45% and so on...This is due to weapon skill being low.
Your Hit/Crit chance is soft capped based on your HIT table. If you have a 30% chance to Hit/Crit yet are capped at 18%, then you lose that extra 12%. This is why +Hit is so important.
The HIT table affects all possible outcomes of an attack. A miss cannot be a crit. A dodge cannot be a crit and so on.


For 2handers/1hnd + shield increase increase the melee HIT/CRIT by 19%. The skill % are the same.

HIT TABLE vs lvl 60 Dual Wield

X|Melee(Front)|Melee(Back)|Skills(Front)|Skills(Back)
MISS|24%|24%|5%|5%
DODGE|5%|5%|5%|5%
BLOCK|5%|0%|5%|0%
PARRY|5%|0%|5%|0%
GLANCING|0%|0%|0%|0%
HIT/CRIT|61%|71%|80%|90%


As you can see, the above table is nothing special. No one has an innate crit chance of 60% on melee, so no one is capped. Next table is vs lvl63 targets

HIT TABLE vs lvl 63 Dual Wield

X|Melee(Front)|Melee(Back)|Skills(Front)|Skills(Back)
MISS|24.6%|24.6%|5.6%|5.6%
DODGE|5.6%|5.6%|5.6%|5.6%
BLOCK|5.6%|0%|5.6%|0%
PARRY|5.6%|0%|5.6%|0%
GLANCING|40%@70%dmg|40%@70%dmg|0%|0%
HIT/CRIT|18.6%|29.8%|77.6%|88.8%


Big difference here. A lot of people have > 18% crit melee chance or even over 30%. And glancing damage can take a very large chunk of damage out.

At 63, every point you increase Weapon Skill DECREASES the penalty that Glancing Blows gives by 3%, up to a maximum of 10pts of skill. IE +5WS reduces glancing blows' penalty to only 85% damage. It has a minor increased to MISS/DODGE/BLOCK/PARRY (0.3% in the case of +5WS). The following table is for +10WS.

HIT TABLE vs lvl 63 Dual Wield w/ +10 Weapon Skill

X|Melee(Front)|Melee(Back)|Skills(Front)|Skills(Back)
MISS|24%|24%|5%|5%
DODGE|5%|5%|5%|5%
BLOCK|5%|0%|5%|0%
PARRY|5%|0%|5%|0%
GLANCING|40%@100%dmg|40%@100%dmg|0%|0%
HIT/CRIT|21%|31%|80%|90%


As you can clearly see, you're doing a lot more damage. 40% of your melee attacks are doing full damage and you've gained a small increased to the HIT/CRIT cap.

As stated before, each point of +Hit decreases your chance to miss, up to a natural cap of whatever your miss rate is. So ~5 for Skills and ~25 for melee attacks. Anything past this is pretty much lost.

HIT TABLE vs lvl 63 Dual Wield w/ +10 Hit

X|Melee(Front)|Melee(Back)|Skills(Front)|Skills(Back)
MISS|14.6%|14.6%|0|0%
DODGE|5.6%|5.6%|5.6%|5.6%
BLOCK|5.6%|0%|5.6%|0%
PARRY|5.6%|0%|5.6%|0%
GLANCING|40%@70%dmg|40%@70%dmg|0%|0%
HIT/CRIT|28.6%|39.8%|83.2%|94.4%


This has a very large impact on melee attacks and a minor affect on skills. You've basically raised your HIT/CRIT cap by 10% for melee attacks, which is a great thing. A 30% base rate is now only losing ~1.5% instead of the ~13.5% they were with no bonuses at all.

HIT TABLE vs lvl 63 Dual Wield w/ +10 Weapon Skill and +10 Hit

X|Melee(Front)|Melee(Back)|Skills(Front)|Skills(Back)
MISS|14%|14%|0%|0%
DODGE|5%|5%|5%|5%
BLOCK|5%|0%|5%|0%
PARRY|5%|0%|5%|0%
GLANCING|40%@100%dmg|40%@100%dmg|0%|0%
HIT/CRIT|31%|41%|85%|95%


Obviously the best scenario for damage output. You melee HIT/CRIT is over 30% from the front. >40% from the back. You can barely miss from skills, a fairly large improvement.

The next section will show actual damage numbers.

Asmiroth
28-08-2006, 09:10 PM
Ok, this part is where I'll show with numbers how things will work out using the tables above.. Here what you need to know.


Using a dual wielder here for ease of damage.
Melee attack averages for 300
Skill attack averages for 500
Melee crit rate is 30%
Skill crit rate is 60%
Blocks are for 80% dmg.
Not calculating armor values as it's the same across the board
Each DMG number is over 100 attacks.


Here goes.
Vs a Lvl 60

X|Melee(Front)|Melee(Back)|Skills(Front)|Skills(Back)
X|28500|30300|72000|75000


Vs a LvL 63

X|Melee(Front)|Melee(Back)|Skills(Front)|Skills(Back)
X|20904|26280|71040|74400


Vs a LvL 63 w/ +10 Weapon Skill

X|Melee(Front)|Melee(Back)|Skills(Front)|Skills(Back)
X|25800|30300|72000|75000


Vs a LvL 63 w/ +10 Hit

X|Melee(Front)|Melee(Back)|Skills(Front)|Skills(Back)
X|26904|32340|73840|77200


Vs a LvL 63 w/ +10 Weapon Skill & +10 Hit

X|Melee(Front)|Melee(Back)|Skills(Front)|Skills(Back)
X|31500|33300|74500|77500



If we are to take the Lvl60 Chart as the baseline it gives the following

X|Melee(Front)|Melee(Back)|Skills(Front)|Skills(Back)
vs60|28500|30300|72000|75000
vs63|73.35%|86.73%|98.67%|99.20%
vs63 w/ +10WS|90.53%|100.00%|100.00%|100.00%
vs63 w/ +10Hit|94.40%|106.73%|102.56%|102.93%
vs63 w/ +10WS&10Hit|110.53%|109.90%|103.47%|103.33%



As you can plainly see, it's a rather LARGE increase for melee damage. Hope this answers a few questions you might have!

galzohar
29-08-2006, 03:09 AM
I don't think that a +3 mob only has an additional 0.6% miss chance. I know for sure it's much more than that. Been told 8% extra but I can't tell exact numbers. You're definitely not hitting 63s nearly as often as 60s with specials in my experience ever since level 1.

Asmiroth
29-08-2006, 03:44 AM
0.04 chance of miss per difference in skill lvl vs def. If you can find another formula, I'd love to see it as this one has been around for quite a long time.

Midnitte
30-08-2006, 03:08 AM
nice job... so what about +healing ? seems the more +healing i got i heal for more (instead of 1700~ i heal for 2000~) but i crit for less (crit is like 2500 and before i got alot of +healing i crit for 3600

Havoc Jack
31-08-2006, 04:46 AM
First off, nice work.

At 63, every point you increase Weapon Skill DECREASES the penalty that Glancing Blows gives by 3%, up to a maximum of 10pts of skill. IE +5WS reduces glancing blows' penalty to only 85% damage. It has a minor increased to MISS/DODGE/BLOCK/PARRY (0.3% in the case of +5WS). The following table is for +10WS.

.1% disagreement here. As far as I know, miss/dodge/block/parry are the result of a comparison of the attacker's weapon skill and the defender's defense skill. If the skills are the same, they default to 5% each. We know that, for each extra point of defense you have you gain .04% chance to miss/dodge/block/parry. So a level 63 boss has 315 defense skill, which is 15 greater than the default 300 weapon skill an attacker has. 15*.04=.6. I presume that it works in the other direction, that is, for each additional point of weapon skill added, the defender loses .04% miss/dodge/block/parry.

Which means (I have a point, I know, I'm astonished as well) that adding 5 weaponskill would by default reduce your target's chance to miss/dodge/block/parry by .04*5=0.2% each. Which is why I disagree with the number 0.3%.

Oh, and Midnitte, mathematically there's no reason for what you're observing. Are you sure you're not mistaken?

Asmiroth
31-08-2006, 03:40 PM
First off, nice work.


.1% disagreement here. As far as I know, miss/dodge/block/parry are the result of a comparison of the attacker's weapon skill and the defender's defense skill. If the skills are the same, they default to 5% each. We know that, for each extra point of defense you have you gain .04% chance to miss/dodge/block/parry. So a level 63 boss has 315 defense skill, which is 15 greater than the default 300 weapon skill an attacker has. 15*.04=.6. I presume that it works in the other direction, that is, for each additional point of weapon skill added, the defender loses .04% miss/dodge/block/parry.

Which means (I have a point, I know, I'm astonished as well) that adding 5 weaponskill would by default reduce your target's chance to miss/dodge/block/parry by .04*5=0.2% each. Which is why I disagree with the number 0.3%.

Oh, and Midnitte, mathematically there's no reason for what you're observing. Are you sure you're not mistaken?

Yup, you're right. Thanks :)

Amiral
31-08-2006, 07:59 PM
Nice post, but in the second thread, I see no explanation to what X is, which makes it a little confusing :smiley:

Oh, and 8% miss chance vs level 63 is also what I've heard.
It isn't the way of formulas, but the experience of testing, in previous patches though.

galzohar
31-08-2006, 09:15 PM
I am certain that mobs do not work the same as players in that regard and a you have more than base 5.6% chance to miss a level 63 mob. If that affects all attacks or just specials I can't say, but I know for sure that back when I had 0 +hit (no +hit talent nor gear) I was missing backstabs on 63s way more than I was on 60s. Also I notice while leveling that a +8 player will resist/miss a LOT less than a +8 mob which is practically impossible to hit, which doesn't fit in with the 0.2% extra miss per level.
There are diffferent miss/hit tables for higher level mobs, I'm just not exactly sure what they are, and the numbers I got were from other forum threads. But it's definitely not just 0.6% for a 63.

Havoc Jack
13-09-2006, 08:27 AM
There are diffferent miss/hit tables for higher level mobs, I'm just not exactly sure what they are, and the numbers I got were from other forum threads. But it's definitely not just 0.6% for a 63.

This is possible; but without any testing I guess .6% is as good a default assumption as any.

By the way, blizzard specifically made creeps greater than three levels above you harder to hit than players greater than three levels above you; mostly to even things out a bit for the gankee. I wouldn't assume this relation as the basis for that sort of point.

It's also possible that certain level 63 creeps have an innate defense increase (as in, their defense is greater than 315), in which case your chance to miss goes up beyond the .6% the numbers lead us to believe.

galzohar
17-09-2006, 04:07 AM
There is simply a table for how much extra miss you get for every level the mob has on you, and it's not 0.6% per level with is what the OP is relying on.