Does your guild allow a Shadow Priest in raids?

[Steamboat]

I don't mean "Once we have it on farm we let someone go shadow for fun." I mean - does your guild have a spot for at least 1 Shadow Priest on a regular basis.

If yes - does it work? Do you find yourself short on DPS? Are there any drawbacks?

If no - why not?

[Fynious]

A "good" Shadow Priest is very very valuable to a raid. I think a lot of guilds completely over look the value of a shadow priest. When we have 5 priests for a raid our one shadow priest usually runs as the 6th priest but in shadow form. He is usually put in the rogue group and with Vampiric Embrace the rogues almost never need healing from the other healers saving thier mana for other more important targets.

Also we run Damage meters on all raids and our Shadow Priest is almost always in the top 10 for damage as long as he dosen't have to pop out of shadow to heal. Also his mob debuffs make the other casters even better. Warlocks love him as well. Never under estimate any good player as they can always find a way to add to the raids over all success.

Fyn

[Shellar]

Not anymore.

Reasons:

1) SP consumes too many valuable debuff slots (Weaving, SW:P, MF, VE).
2) MF and MB scale very badly with +dmg gear. A shadowpriest can hold her own in MC and BWL, but once you get to AQ40 and Naxx, the difference between SP and other DPS casters becomes too big to ignore.
3) Horde = No JoW/BoW = Shadowpriests running OOM very quickly.

[Steamboat]

When you have had Shadowpriests up to BWL, have they been allowed to collect just as much +dmg gear as the other members of the DPS team?

I do understand that SP's scale very badly with gear, but I'm curious if they were further gimped by not being allowed to gear up as well as your other DPS.

[Oatmealsmurf]

We have two Priests who are shadow specced in our guild (and we don't ask anyone to respec) but there is no dedicated slot for a shadow priest. Primarily for the reason that Priests are still needed on a lot of our raids to play the role of primary healers. When we have 5-6 in the raid it will be allowed. However, when it comes to gear +dmg gear will always go to mages and locks first unless they already have an epic piece for that slot.

[Dynatos]

We have a 0-sum system for gear, so you get the gear if your points are higher.

We have a couple shadow priests, one of whom used to be a main and was in on our progression raids (he has since switched his main to a Rogue) and the other who is a main but does not do much progression content because he is on a much different time zone from the server.

The understanding our Shadow Priests have is: you can DPS on trash, where healing isn't needed as much. You can DPS on bosses only if we have enough dedicated healers (Priests, Paladins, and resto Druids).

It's the same situation for our feral Druids, our Moonkin Druid, and our retnoob Paladin. They DPS on trash, and they're allowed to DPS on bosses if the fight doesn't need any more healing.

(Note that our regular progression group used to have a Moonkin Druid, a Retnoob Paladin, a Feral Druid, and a Shadow Priest ... who all regularly got to do what they wanted. The Shadow Priest has since swapped to his Rogue, and the Moonkin and Retnoob are AFK for RL issues.)

[Grendo]

We have a 0-sum system for gear, so you get the gear if your points are higher.

We have a couple shadow priests, one of whom used to be a main and was in on our progression raids (he has since switched his main to a Rogue) and the other who is a main but does not do much progression content because he is on a much different time zone from the server.

The understanding our Shadow Priests have is: you can DPS on trash, where healing isn't needed as much. You can DPS on bosses only if we have enough dedicated healers (Priests, Paladins, and resto Druids).

It's the same situation for our feral Druids, our Moonkin Druid, and our retnoob Paladin. They DPS on trash, and they're allowed to DPS on bosses if the fight doesn't need any more healing.

(Note that our regular progression group used to have a Moonkin Druid, a Retnoob Paladin, a Feral Druid, and a Shadow Priest ... who all regularly got to do what they wanted. The Shadow Priest has since swapped to his Rogue, and the Moonkin and Retnoob are AFK for RL issues.)^^ My Exact response minus the bit about the moonkin. I think there are only 2-3 60 druids on my server who have such a spec. Ive only seen one guilded.

[WatcherZero]

we take 1 regularly but only 1, shes still expected to heal on certain bosses though, the warlocks like the increased dps, and its a backup healer.

[Steamboat]

I'm pretty sure that an average caster at the AQ40/Naxx level would have at least +500 spell dmg. If you look here: http://smulan.se/priest_dmg/ and calculate Shadow priest DPS for someone with +500 spell damage, you come up with about 330DPS on Mindflay, and 105 DPS on SW:P. If the raiding shadowpriest isn't using Mindblast at all he'd be contributing 436DPS along with 130 Healing Per Second (from VE). And he is raising the damage of the warlocks by 15% through shadow weaving.

I know this is a bit of a simplification of what can be a complex scenario, but I guess I don't see why 436DPS, 130HPS, and 15% increase of warlock damage isn't enough to be viable above BWL. Are Mages and Locks at that level honestly cranking out a steady 500 or 600 DPS?

Edit:
I did the math for a warlock with +500 in dmg gear. (Using a calculator created by Peanalope from Warsong US.)

The warlock in +500 dmg gear does 496DPS with just shadowbolts, 77DPS with corruption added, and another 75DPS if curse of agony is added. DPS drops a tiny bit if the warlock adds both dots because he'll need the global cooldown to cast each of them - but it roughly works out to 648 DPS for the warlock in +500dmg gear. The warlock beats the shadowpriest DPS by 212.

But if you have 2 warlocks in the raid, shadow weaving will increase both their DPS by 97.2. So:

3 Warlocks = 648+648+648 = 1944 DPS
2 Warlocks 1 Shadowpriest = 745 + 745 + 496 = 1986 DPS

I didn't mean for this post to get so mathy. I'm at work, and it's boring. Please accept my apologies.

Long story short: Let a Shadowpriest in your raid!

[bhroam]

We have a couple of shadow priests, moonkin, and feral druids in our raids. The shadow priests use shadow weaving to help the warlocks (like Steamboat's math shows it really helps), a couple of moonkin + caster parties for the moonkin aura's and a couple rogue + feral druids for LotP parties.

We've got most of MC on farm, so we're not nearly as far as the rest of you guys though. As with Oatmealsmurf's guild, we don't try and control one's spec. My class lead is a feral druid... and the soon to be priest class lead is a shadow priest..... not to mention the warrior class lead is a dps warror (he out dps's most of the rogues... he's sick).

The wonders of support classes... you're wanted not because of what you can do yourself, but because of what you can do for the rest of the raid =]

[Shellar]

When you have had Shadowpriests up to BWL, have they been allowed to collect just as much +dmg gear as the other members of the DPS team?
Yes. :sunny:

[CreslinHellscream]

We allow people to spec how they want but on some encounters, especially new ones, we tend to have them healing anyway. So I answered yes but it should be, yes with restriction, because they do still have to heal sometimes.

[oper]

1) SP consumes too many valuable debuff slots (Weaving, SW:P, MF, VE).
2) MF and MB scale very badly with +dmg gear. A shadowpriest can hold her own in MC and BWL, but once you get to AQ40 and Naxx, the difference between SP and other DPS casters becomes too big to ignore

So no, we dont allow shadow priests as damage dealers for raids.

we are a naxx raiding guild, with only 65-70 members (including raid inactives), so everyone is quite active. But we do not dictate our members' talent builds, people with endgame PvE specs are just preferred above solo/pvp specs, so people usually spec PvE to get into the raids.

For the same warriors with Mortal strike are not preferred, if they wanted to be able to do alot of damage in instances, they would have specced fury.

[cigawoot]

Our guild has a Shadow Priest, however he does not use Shadow form during raids. Mainly just puts up debuffs and heals.

[oper]

But if you have 2 warlocks in the raid, shadow weaving will increase both their DPS by 97.2. So:

3 Warlocks = 648+648+648 = 1944 DPS
2 Warlocks 1 Shadowpriest = 745 + 745 + 496 = 1986 DPS

technically that would be correct. But as warlocks are allready in deep problems with threat, having a priest shadow'ing is not viable. On most bosses me and my locks constantly have to keep an eye on the threatmeter so we dont go above 125% of the MT's threat. We would not gain anything from a 15% boost to our DPS, we would just have to take more breaks.

[Jerkey]

My guild doesn't force anybody to spec in a way they don't want to- however, if there is a shortage of healers, we still expect the shadow priests to heal it up. One of our officers is a moonkin druid, and the same is expected of her (well I guess she's the one expecting it from herself).

[TJCaine]

Ya... I can safely say the only place we allow shadow priests is in AQ20 and ZG. Shadow priests in Naxx and AQ? That just doesn't happen. As already stated, we lose too much healing power.

I think we had a shadow priest once run up to a warrior and bandage him during a pull. Let's just say he didn't stay in our guild too long...

[Usred]

I am a shadow priest and regularly attend raids for my guild. My primary function is as a healer. On trash mobs I will dps but I am rarely in shadow form just in case a squishie needs saving.

Sometimes I am asked to go shadow form if DPS class attendance is low that night. Being in a small guild, it helps to have that kind of versitility. We are currently only raiding in the two 20 man instances so I do not know how things will change once an alliance for 40 man content starts up.

As it is right now though I think my current role is quite beneficial to the guild as a whole. I am able to keep up heals through long fights without mana being an issue. Or if I go Shadow form usually be top on dps for the night. I understand this will probably change with the gearing up of the guild but for now I don't see myself respeccing to holy/discp any time soon.

The most important thing is to make sure that, whatever class/build you may have, you are playing it to be of the most benefit to the guild effort.

And as for healing. Mana management and reduction in overhealing are much bigger issues to a healer than talent build. Granted, your talent build is the primary way to combat mana efficiency, followed by gear, there is, however, no talent skill that will make you a "smarter" healer.

[najgeetsev]

In our guild we have a priest, I'm not shure if he is shadow anymore. But when he was, we where in BRS. He was 2nd on the dmg list and 1st on the healing list. I tell you, he was god. :P.

[Mallstrop]

My first group used to have a shadow priest that would allways be put in the same group as the warlocks for Ragnaros. The VE healing she did was an endless flow of mana for the warlocks but I must admit, when we were hurt her healing wasn't enough to do anything about it.

I'd be all for a shadow priest to take a raid spot but never a healing spot, for the further instances we'll need all the 15 healing spots given to healers, let them take a warlock spot if anything.

[Cerberus]

First of all I've allways wondered how a shadowpriest with the same amount of +dmg gear as mages/locks doing AQ40 and up would perform. You could probably count the shadowpriests that have that kind of +dmg worldwide on one hand.

I have been playing with a thought for Patchwerk..
Can anyone come up with a plausible scenario fitting a shadowpriest into the raid?
Given that that priest has somewhere between 500 and 600 +dmg.
I'm thinking of buffing lock dmg with shadow weaving, worth it if the priest can hold his/her own? We don't have that many locks and they allready have problems coping with the needed dps so adding more than needed for imps and curses isn't that wanted. The priest again would benefit somewhat from imp shadowbolt.

[Nitroussquirrel]

I find it funny, but all of our priests are specced shadow except for 2 in our guild but they all heal. So if you wanna get technical yeah they are allowed in raids.

[Gyoza]

You could probably count the shadowpriests that have that kind of +dmg worldwide on one hand.

because the + dmg gear gets given to the other classes first and SP's get stuck out.


I have been playing with a thought for Patchwerk..
Can anyone come up with a plausible scenario fitting a shadowpriest into the raid?
Given that that priest has somewhere between 500 and 600 +dmg.
I'm thinking of buffing lock dmg with shadow weaving, worth it if the priest can hold his/her own? We don't have that many locks and they allready have problems coping with the needed dps so adding more than needed for imps and curses isn't that wanted. The priest again would benefit somewhat from imp shadowbolt.

ok, so, correct me if I am wrong, but with +600 dmg, that would add round about 260 dmg to a MB. (1.5/3.5*600)

Lets say that a base MB hits for 1000 @ 60 (could be higher, or lower, but 1k is a good round base)... that is 1260 per hit for a 1.5 sec cast. Add fully stacked shadow weaving, thats 1500 a hit...in 1.5 seconds. With a 1 second cooldown on the spell, in 30 seconds, you can let go of 12 MB's, which would equal 18k dmg.

Mages get bout 3-4k on their 6 sec casts... 30 sec/6sec = 5 * 3k-4k = 15k-18k


so the shadow priest is not all that different in dps than a mage with a spell on spell comaparison of their highest dmg bombs, BUT....

- this also does not take into acct the effect the shadow weaving has on the warlocks

- this does not take into acct the DoT(s) that the Shadow Priest has going at the same time, which, in and of itself should equalize out any real difference in dps (especially UD SP with DP and SWP)

Add to that VE which helps the healer save mana to make sure that tank stays alive and throw in a potential emergency heal/bubble...

I would say that there should always be a spot for a shadow priest in every raid.

[kiln]

+damage bonus is calculated of the base casting time of the spell. Not the casting time of the spell-talents-gear.

[Gyoza]

+damage bonus is calculated of the base casting time of the spell. Not the casting time of the spell-talents-gear.

yeah, Mind Blast is a 1.5 sec cast... 100% +dmg bonus is based off of a 3.5 sec cast, so with a +600 to dmg the formula would be....

1.5/3.5*600

exactly as i noted above, right?

(I may be remembering wrong so it may be a 3 sec cast and not 3.5 secs for 100% +dmg bonus, but that would only make the dmg of the SP better, and therefore even more competitive)

[Cerberus]

Mindblast has a 1.5 sec cast, unlike most other spells of that sort (fire/frost/shadow-bolt) the "improved" version of the talent gives shorter cooldown rather than less casting time. I believe imp has 2 secs CD (correct me if I'm wrong).
The max penalty on +dmg is at 1,5 secs casts, instantcasts will not recieve further penalty afaik.

I really don't know enough about shadowpriests in raids to work out the actual dps, but your calculations seem very high to me Gyoza. Think we have to include alot more factors. I'll look into it when I get time.

The main problem I'm trying to work out is lock mana and dps issues. My thoughts are along the lines of a shadowpriest healing by VE and supply the locks with mana via lifetap. Shadoweaving is ofc also a plus along with a tiny bit of unreliable healing for the tank ;)
I'm kinda stuck at the group composition part tho. Tanks need improved imp and devotion aura/stoneskin and VE will only work within the group..
(For reference, there are no aggro issues or need to heal any other part of the raid than tanks on this fight).

This is ofc all highly hypotethical, but would be fun to see somebody try out ^^

[Baldurine]

I have a shadow priest with + 240 in damage.
When my MB crits it can give up to 1300 in damage so if i had + 600 damage gear it would be much higher.

[Gyoza]

Mindblast has a 1.5 sec cast, unlike most other spells of that sort (fire/frost/shadow-bolt) the "improved" version of the talent gives shorter cooldown rather than less casting time. I believe imp has 2 secs CD (correct me if I'm wrong).
The max penalty on +dmg is at 1,5 secs casts, instantcasts will not recieve further penalty afaik.

I really don't know enough about shadowpriests in raids to work out the actual dps, but your calculations seem very high to me Gyoza. Think we have to include alot more factors. I'll look into it when I get time.

The main problem I'm trying to work out is lock mana and dps issues. My thoughts are along the lines of a shadowpriest healing by VE and supply the locks with mana via lifetap. Shadoweaving is ofc also a plus along with a tiny bit of unreliable healing for the tank ;)
I'm kinda stuck at the group composition part tho. Tanks need improved imp and devotion aura/stoneskin and VE will only work within the group..
(For reference, there are no aggro issues or need to heal any other part of the raid than tanks on this fight).

This is ofc all highly hypotethical, but would be fun to see somebody try out ^^


yeah, it would depend on how you set up your group... perhaps put the SP in the group with the OT? I think that is what I have seen done. (have not been into MC with my SP yet, but have with my tank)




i went back and looked and you are right, it is a 2 second cooldown

[dorn]

because the + dmg gear gets given to the other classes first and SP's get stuck out.

Lets say that a base MB hits for 1000 @ 60 (could be higher, or lower, but 1k is a good round base)... that is 1260 per hit for a 1.5 sec cast. Add fully stacked shadow weaving, thats 1500 a hit...in 1.5 seconds. With a 1 second cooldown on the spell, in 30 seconds, you can let go of 12 MB's, which would equal 18k dmg.

Mages get bout 3-4k on their 6 sec casts... 30 sec/6sec = 5 * 3k-4k = 15k-18k



ok im getting confused now.
MB has a 5.5s cooldown with talents, how/why do u calculate it to 12 spells in 30 seconds :?

Pyroblast is the only mage spell with a 6second cast, so i assume thats the one u ment. however that wont even crit to 3-4k, and even then its not the most effective spel in Damage/second terms. Besides pyro has a 1min cooldown so why are u comparing that one ?

plz enlighten me, cause its not making any sense for me ;)


ps
5*4k = 20k not 18 :)

[Cerberus]

Watched some vids and done some math. The main dmg from a shadowpriest would ofc be from mindflay btw. Looks like you could get it to tick for around 450ish with 1,1-1,2k+ mindblasts as a rough estimate. That's with all buffs possible.
That leaves us with groups and manaproblems. The reason for having locks here is giving improved imp so you want to spread them out to all the tanks. So we want to give as many tanks imp as possible with as few locks as possible. We also want to fit as many locks as possible together with the SP. One spot will be reserved for a shaman/pala.
The shadowpriest will most likely run into manaproblems as well rumour has it. Anybody have some proper math on that..?