+15 str, or Crusader?

[swaldman]

Can anyone give any thoughts on which is better between +15 str and Crusader? I'd rather assumed that it would be Crusader, until I realised that on my server the mats for the str enchant would cost more.

Since both ultimately translate into strength, I'm guessing that it'll depend on the proc rate of crusader?

I don't think it should matter, but I'm a paladin thinking about this for a 3.8-speed 2-hander.

Thanks!

[galzohar]

15 str is mostly an offhand enchant because offhands don't proc much anyway but the str bonus works just as well. For 2 handers and main handers crusader would be better.

[swaldman]

15 str is mostly an offhand enchant because offhands don't proc much anyway but the str bonus works just as well. For 2 handers and main handers crusader would be better.

Ah, that makes sense.
Thanks.

[Finu]

I'm using +15 STR on Thunderfurry as MT, especially since I want to know what to expect (rather then wait for Crusader to proc).

If you know how to maximize your cooldowns, press the keys fast (maybe even using a mod) Thunderfurry with +15 STR generated 3 times as much aggro then anyone else in the raid at Chromaggus and about 40k more then anyone at Nefarian...

[Havoc Jack]

Crusader procs once per minute.

If the effect of crusader is a 10 second buff of 100 strength, that averages out to 16.66666..... strength on at all times. I guess it's slightly better.

[galzohar]

Crusader also procs off of instants, with proc chance per instant depending on weapon speed. Not sure if sunder counts though.
Anyway why would a tank get anything other than +15 agi?

[Finu]

So you guys think the +15 agi is definitely the way to go for a MT?

All right I will probably replace my +15 STR on Thunderfury (at the time when I applied it, I wanted something consistent for aggro I guess, but I now see that I have no problems whatsoever holding aggro, i.e. at the last Chrommagus kill I had 270k aggro vs 50k, the next raider had, a rogue; we had an easy combo of breaths, incinerate and ignite flesh)

[Havoc Jack]

The thing about 15 agility is that it adds .75% dodge, and 30 armor. That's damage mitigation, and no other weapon enchants add that. In one way that makes it the clear choice for a tank.

On the other hand, lifestealing heals you for a little, which makes life easier on the healer, which is why you get damage mitigation in the first place. (Sure, it's to help you stay alive, but so is the healer). I've never seen definite numbers for lifestealing, so I can't give back any numbers.

And if you aren't worried about damage mitigation; say you have a really fine battery of healers, then adding a little extra damage (crusader or strength) means you get a little more threat generation, which means more damage for the group or raid overall.

Crusader also heals you, +15 agility also adds .75% crit, and lifestealing also deals damage. We can make this as complicated as we want.

[swaldman]

Crusader also heals you, +15 agility also adds .75% crit, and lifestealing also deals damage. We can make this as complicated as we want.

Don't forget that Crusader / +15 str also increases your block value.... :-)

[Finu]

I put +15 agil and I am not sure that it does better for me in terms of threat, but then again aggro hasn't been a problem lately (not only with TF but also alternating between lazy tanking and regular tanking)
That 0.75 dodge and the bit of AC( 30) might have saved my butt at Nef, when my health went down to 900 HP and I had to use shield wall, during a priests call, but that again it seems such a lil help, what do you think?

[Jerkey]

Perhaps you used that 0.75% extra dodge to dodge a potentially life ending blow?

[sgailean]

On the other hand, lifestealing heals you for a little, which makes life easier on the healer, which is why you get damage mitigation in the first place. (Sure, it's to help you stay alive, but so is the healer). I've never seen definite numbers for lifestealing, so I can't give back any numbers.

I've seen Lifestealing quoted as 4 procs per minute and 6ppm respectively with autoattack. Roger Karlsson did a great analysis (http://rogerkarlsson.com/blogs/wow/lifestealing/) of LS that showed roughly a 4.5ppm rate with misses, so I'd say 5-6ppm. It is indeed normalized for weapon speed, so the chance is much higher on a slower weapon - with a Sword of Zeal, Slice and Dice and Blade Flurry my Hemo rogue would often have a wave of green +30s scrolling up and way too many SB visuals on the mob. It heals for 30 and does 30 shadow damage, instant (not as is often claimed) and can crit.

Great enchant, I've had it heal for up towards 10K total in a Strat Dead run and for non-tanks it generates a much smoother and more predictable aggro curve than Crusader's less frequent procs. I'd say that is probably an advantage for tanks too - counting on a Crusader proc that comes at the very end of a fight has to be painful.

[Havoc Jack]

'hokay, where to start.

First of all, I was incorrect in my previous statement, the crusader effect lasts 15 seconds. Since 15 seconds is 1/4th of a minute, and crusader procs once per minute, you can expect the proc to be active 1/4th of the time. That's 25 strength on average. A mite better, if I do say so.

If lifestealing proccs 4.5 times a minute (as the analysis in the link claims), then you can expect 4.5*30 damage to occur in that time, or 135 damage. Take 135 damage and divide it by 60 seconds to find the dps, which is 2.25. So if 25 strength will give you more than 2.25 dps, then crusader will give you more damage. For a rogue, where 1 str = 1 attack power, then the 25 strength from crusader would be 25/14 dps = 1.79 dps. For a warrior, where 1 str = 2 attack power, then 25 strength = 50/14 dps = 3.57 dps.

So lifestealing is better for a rogue, while Crusader is better for a warrior. Oh, and yes, you can increase the proc rate of either by doing special moves etc, but if you're doing the same special moves on the same character, the effects ought to equal out (exept if crusader procs a second time before the buff is gone, I believe you'd lose the remainder of the first buff).

Case closed? not quite. Lifestealing still can be resisted. If we take the chance for lifestealing to be resisted as "r", then the chance for lifestealing to hit is 100% - r%, right? So can we find an "r" such that anything larger would make crusader better, and anything smaller would make lifestealing better? Set them equal

(1-r)*2.25=1.79

And solve for "r"

(1-r)=(1.79/2.25)

(1-(1.79/2.25))=r

Whipping out my calculator, I find that r=20.4%. So crusader and lifestealing would be exactly equal for a rogue if lifestealing was resisted just over 1/5th of the time. Hmm... looks like that's bad news for crusader on the rogue market.

Anything else we can do? +9 damage on a two hander, +5 damage on a one hander, both depend on weapon speed. Which means that we'd have a range of values for each (2.30 to 4.00 weapon speed for +9, for example). What about fiery? The general consensus seems that it's good, but not as good as crusader or lifestealing. But if someone has a ppm on that, I'd like to see it. Oh, right, +15 (or +25) agility. But that opens up a whole new can of worms.

(And if you guys think this is complicated, take a look at my posts in the druid forums.)