i have determined...

[oramac]

...that if you are alliance, and you have not won AV in 20 mins or less, you are not going to win.

discuss

[mesonm]

I beg to differ...I was in a game the other day where the alli decided to farm HK's, and the game lasted 45 min before they decided to end it. Once decided, the game ended in less than ten min with an alli win.

;)

discuss

[Gyoza]

i disagree entirely

[Nortap]

I just recently starte din BG's but here's what I have determined.

If you are Alliance in WSG consider yourself lucky to capture 1 flag.

[rgirty]

Before x realm BG my server was the land of the turtles.

6-8 hour av's were not unheard of.

Que times were, well... sucked.

As a bonus, my realm is owning everyone in our battlegroup.

[Dynatos]

Erm. Pre-1.12, Horde on our server dominated AV. With the influx of less talented Horde in our battlegroup, we now get dominated in AV.

Or so I've heard. I'm not yet 60 on this server. :afro:

[rgirty]

Why is alliance dominating av?

Because half of alliance are Night elf hunters that have never done anything but solo for 60 levels and pvp is just more of the same for them?

[Dynatos]

Naw, our server seems to dominate our entire Battlegroup when we queue up a server-specific Horde group. But, when jumping in randomly, our battlegroup's Horde groups get owned.

[Icefrost]

Because half of alliance are Night elf hunters that have never done anything but solo for 60 levels and pvp is just more of the same for them?
Let me guess..you play horde?

[SLYACE]

I can say that i just started in the bg's and in wg the alliance can win 3 mil very fast but only if the groups acst like a team usually they all just run out and get killed very fast.
Now in the basin i have only done like 4 times alliance won 1 of these and as i said b4 they scatter and die.

Horde seems to be more organized on my server(lethon)then alliance.
by the way thei is the 20-29 bracket

[Gyoza]

Why is alliance dominating av?

Because half of alliance are Night elf hunters that have never done anything but solo for 60 levels and pvp is just more of the same for them?



LOLOLOL

How very true!

[Icefrost]

LOLOLOL

How very true!
Disagreed. Or at least on my server I see more undead priests than NE hunters so long as city visits don't count. And I play alliance.

[Starwynd]

The Horde lose AV alot for multiple reasons. Of course they'res always the luck of the draw on class makeup and the talent of your players.

But aside from that, contrary to popular belief the AV map is massively stacked in the Alliances favor, even now that they fixed the RH exploit. The main reason for this is the deathtrap that is assaulting SP GY, and the impenetrable fortress of a base compared to the Hordes couple log cabins in the woods. Also, for as much as Alliance whine about the "OMGWTFPWN"-ness of Horde racials, they're pretty evenly stacked if you look at it intelligently. But the Alliance have MUCH better racials for defending (Shadowmeld, Perception, Stoneform), so have an even easier time defending their already lopsided defenses. Nothing sucks more than going in for a solo ninja of an, apperantly ungarded, GY flag... only to catch two aimedshots in the face and keel over dead.

That and the Alliance have Paladins, the single most overpowered group PvP class in the game if played even moderately well. And yes, I can always blame something on Paladins, since there are so effing many of them and have so many lame, "press and forget" abilities. And if I ever hear an Alliance player whine about stunlocks, I'm going to pimpslap them and remind them about the Paladin "Hammer of GG" which is an absolute death sentence in AV. 6 second, low mana cost, short cooldown 10 yard range stun... In the middle of a zerg of dozens of people. Yeah, you die.

[Oatmealsmurf]

Yeah... I agree... well not all of it ... but with the main reason. SP GY is ridiculously easy to defend. You can defend it against a 40 man zerg with 20-25 people because of that choke point Every direction you can attack it from is closed in and susceptible to having your whole raid AoE'd. Meanwhile FW is out in the middle of no man's land and exceedingly difficult to defend from a large zerg. Then of couse you have to run the gauntlet across the bridge to assault the towers and you start taking bow fire half way across... where as Alliance can just retreat into the tower to avoid bowmen.

If you're Alliance and you lose in AV you suck.

[Bazi]

Countless times I will be in AV on horde side, our 10-15 man defense holds off alli, we get SP gy and work on the last base. Offense goes on for an hour or so, slowly during this hour the Alliance offense force goes from like 30 people to 15, SP GY gets taken from us from behind and we lose.

The alli base is too easy to defend, thanks to the bridge it is so easy to stop an offense force or at least hold them off long enough.

[moopy]

Why is alliance dominating av?

Because half of alliance are Night elf hunters that have never done anything but solo for 60 levels and pvp is just more of the same for them?

Nope, because since they nerfed the NPCs, the whole game comes down to map imbalance. I have seen it from both sides, and it's so much harder for the horde to make it through the choke point and over the bridge into SP than it is for the alliance to run into FW that it isn't even funny. My little alliance hunter can just wander into FW, so much for looking forward to a good solid battle.

[Grendo]

The problem is it isnt harder to get INTO the base, its harder to stay alive.

The horde base is built in such a way that you can avoid 3/4 of its NPCs (theyre in the front), and most of the actual fighting takes place between the towers.

In the Alliance base however, theres no curve to get into the base, but you have to pretty much clear it (save the stables) to make any ground.

That added with the fact that the towers in the alliance base can start on your health before you hit the base, wheras in the horde base you have 1-2 easily soloable guards to deal with before you hit the towers. And alliance is 'easier' base wise.

However, I find most of the battle on my main battlegroup server not to happen at either base, more often than not its a battle zerg at IB. Once taken, I find horde to not put up any real resistance, if any, until RH, which is a failed concept anyway given the base structure.

Im not sure what changed, as when my first ally toon played, horde won most games. I played horde pvp we won most games. Now that im back to alliance, and the same as the original server, we always win AV, but lose the majority of the other 2.

[Skahr]

Alli wins BG's?

[Weebull]

the Paladin "Hammer of GG"

ROFL !! I never heard it discribed that way - so true and so well said! :grin:

[WingedNazgul]

ROFL !! I never heard it discribed that way - so true and so well said! :grin:

It's been around a while. It's been used to describe both the Hammer of Wrath and the Hammer of Justice. Some say it was the inspiration behind the naming of the AQ40 hammer, Hammer of Ji'zhi.

[mesonm]

If you're Alliance and you lose in AV you suck.

QFT

Of this, there is NO doubt....

[moopy]

The problem is it isnt harder to get INTO the base, its harder to stay alive.

Not strictly true. If a slack handful of alliance hang back round SP, they can first make life miserable at the choke point before the GY, and then on the bridge, and all the while the horde are fighting in range of the archers in the bunkers. I have done it to horde myself, frost trapping and generally winding them up, and it slows them right down, giving the attackers a chance to pull Drek before horde are done with the SP bunkers, much less start on Van.

The good news is that very recently, I have noticed a subtle change- I don't know what Blizzard have done, but I have seen a few "proper" games again, lasting over an hour, giving decent rep and honour to both sides. Hell, I even saw popsicle boy/woody woodpecker summoned (the ultimate units), as well as the various wing commanders. Not all PvPers are very quick on the uptake or mentally flexible though, and a lot are still trying to play as though it was totally nerfed, which guarantees a loss for the horde, however. That said, this week, I have noticed that if a few hordies defend, they are once more able to hold off the allies for a while, and games can actually prove faintly interesting again for both sides.

[Grendo]

Not strictly true. If a slack handful of alliance hang back round SP, they can first make life miserable at the choke point before the GY, and then on the bridge, and all the while the horde are fighting in range of the archers in the bunkers. I have done it to horde myself, frost trapping and generally winding them up, and it slows them right down, giving the attackers a chance to pull Drek before horde are done with the SP bunkers, much less start on Van.I think we mainly agree, I had a much longer explanation but recent board timeouts ate it ;)

Its only a bottleneck if you let it be - same goes for both sides. If you ride thru the SP bottleneck to the flag, ala AB, youre much more successful, same goes for either relief hut. The problem horde has, is that riding thru to the flag means a lot of extra NPCs at/near the flag, whereas for alliance there is only a wanderer and the flag guards themselves.

The best horde tactic I see on my horde pvp server involves using the alliance towers as tactical points, flipping the bottleneck problems back to the alliance (using the tower doors). This of course takes longer than what alliance have to do and involves a good head start on captures (generally having SP before ally have FW, and possibly IB).

[Akanil]

Recently got exalted in AV. My observation is, as long as there is a strong enough defense, horde wins. Rushing never worked in matches i was in. Horde has to be significantly faster than alliance to have a chance here.
That the map setup favors alliance has already been mentioned, well its always been like this.
What really bugs me are the bunkers. It's a piece of cake to take over all horde towers solo. In alliance bunkers you have to take out several archers before tapping the flag, something thats quite hard to do solo.

[moopy]

I think we mainly agree, I had a much longer explanation but recent board timeouts ate it ;)

Its only a bottleneck if you let it be - same goes for both sides. If you ride thru the SP bottleneck to the flag, ala AB, youre much more successful, same goes for either relief hut. The problem horde has, is that riding thru to the flag means a lot of extra NPCs at/near the flag, whereas for alliance there is only a wanderer and the flag guards themselves.


Ah, a smart alliance team will stop you earlier than that, using the canyon on the way, just before the bridge, the SP GY NPCs and the bridge itself. I had a go at this myself over the weekend, took my dorf hunter to AV, and simply by holding the canyon/bridge as best I could, was third on the scoreboard for KBs. A small group of us were able to make life complete hell for the poor horde. MM spec hunters who crit around 3k are are not what you want to see (or fail to see, natch), when you're trying to cross the bridge, it's utterly unfair to the poor horde.

However, you're right, the bowmen and other NPCs (people always forget the pesky stable hands) are a royal pain. Generally, when I am playing horde, I try and get people to cap the SP GY, and then try and drag the NPCs over the bridge so the GY NPCs can help kill them, amazing what the AB boots, fear and mind flay can achieve, with the odd mind blast to make sure that no-one steals your aggro. It is still far too unbalanced.


The best horde tactic I see on my horde pvp server involves using the alliance towers as tactical points, flipping the bottleneck problems back to the alliance (using the tower doors). This of course takes longer than what alliance have to do and involves a good head start on captures (generally having SP before ally have FW, and possibly IB).

To be honest, the best horde tactic is to forget rushing, leave some defense in FW to slow them down, and then take down Balinda etc., in the proper manner, and summon the Ice Lord just before you assault SP GY- he takes ten minutes before he becomes active. Then he will rush across the bridge in front of you, and start pounding the NPCs to dust. At this point, the horde *must* cross the bridge with him, or smart alliance will just drag him to Van and let him and his marshals kill Icy.

Blizz changed something last wednesday which makes this a viable tactic once more. However, the ADHD-addled foulmouthed twelve year-olds that one generally gets unless playing quite late at night haven't worked this out yet. This is a shame, as a "proper" win like this yields tonnes of rep (for those who still need it), and by the nature of things, a fair few HKs and the like- as well as being a much more exciting game. The balance has been partly restored, but sadly now the horde has become its own worse enemy :grin: