+Damage or +Int

[Gyoza]

ok, so I have a shadow priest and I pvp pretty heavily. I understand how the math works on the +dmg gear. That has been illustrated pretty clearly in a variety of posts here.

What I don't understand is why someone would give up a significant difference in +Int for +Dmg.

For example, if I have the choice between something with +29 Int, lets say Glowing Brightwood Staff, or something with only +10 Int and +44 dmg like the Ironbark staff...

That is a difference of 19 int, which would equate to at least 1 mind blast extra over time i am guessing.

So, lets say with the Iron Bark I have enough mana to cast 10 MB, with Glowing Brightwood, 11. Lets also say that each MB does 800 dmg base (without the + dmg)

GBS = 11 MB * 800 dmg = 8,800 total dmg
IBS = 10 MB * 800 dmg + ((1.5/3.5 * 44) * 10) = 8188.60 total dmg


Am I missing something here?

Any info would be appreciated!

[Amiral]

things you have to ask yourself is:
Do I always get to use All of my mana before it is reset (death)?
Do I want (in case of Yes in the question above) to spread that damage out over 55 seconds (~148,9 DPS) or over 60.5 seconds (~145,5 DPS)?

As I have almost solely played a warrior, I know very well what it's like not being able to show your full potential before the green bar has turned both yellow red and transparent.

[Gyoza]

well, seeing as how shadow priests are extremely mana inefficient in that the shadow spells cost TONS, yes, I often do drain the hell out of my mana bar... OFTEN, especially in hard fighting.

Initially, I did go for the +dmg gear and I do notice a difference, but in bg's I kept running out of mana.

In my experience, the +dmg gear seems to only serve me well in one case... duelling, and that seems to be it.

In pvp tho, you dont just fight one person, it is pretty much a constant series of people with virtually no time for the 5sec rule to pass for long enough.

For example:

my SP has 303 unbuffed int at level 52 with no +dmg gear

a friend has a SP at lvl 54 with 258 int with +200 dmg or something like that

yet, I always end up higher on the KB list, with more HKs and less deaths. If I could chaulk this up to "I am a better player" or "he is a crappy player" that would be one thing, but I can't. The truth of it is, he is probably a much better player than I am... and yet my performance by far outstrips his when we go head to head.

In a duel, he whips me, but in the bg's... different story.

I was just wondering if I missed something or if I was mistaken somehow because I see all this pvp rep gear with + dmg on it, but don't understand why giving up the +int of the pve stuff would be beneficial?

[Gyoza]

well, it has been a couple days since this has been posted and, so far, no one has really challenged my math to show me why +dmg is better than +int. That means I will keep doing what I am doin!

So by non-response, I am going to assume that +int > +dmg...even for pvp.

Thanks!

[Murad]

If you're in a group pvp setting, you should drink (or suicide if you lack money and haven't run across a friendly mage that session) when OOM. One or two mindblasts rarely make the difference.

I've always emphasized stam>AC(in gobs - Ironweave, rend trinket, rank 8 chest and legs, enchanting trinket; only the trinkets lack other key stats)>damage>int for my shadowpriest in a pvp context. The only times I ever run out of mana before health when facing one or two enemies alone is when they are T2+ geared hunters who utilize viper sting and healing potions, or if I get jumped as I am about to drink. I probably go through my mana faster than the norm, too, as I like to keep the top rank PW:S on myself whenever possible.

My blue pvp/instance gear provides me with stamina and int just shy of 300, +120ish damage, and enough armor to have the absorption of a shaman with shadowform and inner fire. I still get completely hosed by T2+ physical classes one on one if they get the jump on me, and a good warlock with the puppy out spells doom.

If you have a good team in mass pvp, you should be healing regardless of spec, and int becomes more valuable. Hasn't happened much for me, though.

[Gyoza]

hmmmmm... thanks for the info. I will change up some gear, etc. and see what works best for me.

[rgirty]

What about pve?

[Gyoza]

Well, for PVE, the int would most definitely be more important that +dmg. Without a doubt. There are too many other non-damage based things for you to do as well to give up the int... buffs, defuffs, shields, VE, heals if needed, CoW, etc etc.

If I am going for full bore damage & all the other stuff, I usually go OOM after every other group of mobs in an instance... a lot of times, I end up functioning as OT with my PW:S, VE, DP, and mind flay to kill the runners... it's fun, I love to do it, and yes, I know how/when not too (so dont give me poop.)

I just want to drop every mob ASAP, so I am inefficient as hell with my mana on a toon that is already highly inefficient LOL...

i figure tons of free magewater > repair bills all around.

[AddictedFanatic]

I have two sets of gear for my priest--int gear and damage gear--and I have a lot of PvP experience with both. Generally, the +int gear will do better over the long haul. I use the +damage gear when defending a node or the flag and expect to have limited fights with down time in between to drink. If I am on offence and expect to do extended fighting, I swap in the +int gear maximize my mana (and in this case I usually regen mana in the graveyard).

In PvE soloing, I use shield and shadow word:pain and wand everything to death (I may have to repeatedly cast them with a heal for tough mobs). This leaves me a full mana pool if something goes wrong (like an enemy player tries to gank me or a second mob aggros). I use +damage gear because I am not burning a lot of mana and want maximum DPS if I need it in an emergency.

[Voi]

Im not a shadowpriest but you have to remember the cooldown of mind blast too. While mind blast gets around 43% of the bonus, mind flay which is channelled over 3 seconds only get around 45% (don't know the exact value). This would make it seem like int is better, but I personally prefer killing people fast in pvp. Burst damage is important. You have to kill the opponents before they kill you...so I would go for +dmg mostly without gimping my int too much. Try to find the right balance!

[Deltoran]

i agree with Voi. You want to be able to kill the opponent before he deals any serious damage to you, and for that more +damage is definitely a good thing. Int will help you if you are planning on extended fighting, yes, but i, being a priest myself, have noticed that your class alone places a large bullseye on your head in the battlegrounds. People always go for the healers, which is very bad news for people like myself. I have found that more +damage benefits me more than +int does in a PvP setting, but do whatever you are more comfortable with or whatever helps you more. People have different playing styles and strategies, so mine might not fit you, or vice versa.
Murad also had a good point, though. Stam is more important than either int or +damage (imnsho), though i have never focused on getting more armor as a cloth wearer. Might be a good idea, ill try it out.

[sylvanaar]

Cant challenge your math becase there is no true way to compare +damage with +int due to the number of variables.

Wait maybe i can, you did not factor in the bonus that +int gives to spell crit did you?

Anyhow

the metric you use = total damage done in a given period of time.

And since you supplied the values needed your math is correct. But only with you supplying the values. you havent made a generic comparison, you made a specific one.

[Masteril]

2sylvanaar
But on another hand +crit is only a chance. If you fight 1on1 and you dont get your crit real fast - u r dead.
If you fight in BG or PvE crit (read +int) can improve your long-term dps significantly but not in dueling I think.

[Chiepah]

When i was speced shadow i rarly ran out of mana in a BG, only because i was at the GY before i could finish it. but that was WSG and AB, in AV i found that int was better because you would find more isolated fights. So i would say Stamina first, then if your are doing the small BGs +damage, for AV +int.

[CRUSADA]

Well +dmg would give more dmg but +int would give a higher crit chance.

[Diamondlights]

I'd also argue that +crit in TBC is more important than +dmg for priests, especially with the 5/5 Shadow Power talent. My preference now is always for items with +crit and +dmg, And +int or +sta over +dmg as well.

I find I am out dps'ing most of my guildies, some of whom have greater +dmg, but not so much +crit, and certainly provide better burst than any of the other priests - all of whom are shadow for levelling purposes.

I have modest +424 dmg unbuffed but like crit 30% of the time, which helps tons in bg with mind blast and shadow word: death.

I'm talking with a shadow build here - I wonder if the may also even be true with a smite build. Anyways, give it a try you guys.

[elmoreb]

+damage increases efficiency
+int increases total resources

Total mana, if you are in good gear, isnt important. Mana regen is king for your mana pool worries.

If you are a shadow priest, getting more int leaves alot of gaps with your talents. Vampiric embrace and vampiric touch gain no benefit from extra int. Vampiric touch gives you mana. So here +dmg helps extend your mana pool ( and your party's).

You cant neglect any of these though. You need +dmg, you need +int, and you need mana regen.

Let me ask you this: If you have a mana pool of 6000, and you only use 5000 mana, which would you have been better off with? More int or more spell damage? Increasing your mana pool only benefits you when using that last little bit of mana. Increasing +damage helps all the time, and makes your damage cost less to begin with.

[LucidTaint]

Increasing +damage helps all the time

Unless you're out of mana, and then that +damage doesn't mean crap, because you can't cast a spell to get the bonus damage, let alone the base damage. ;)

But he's right, it all comes down to you knowing your character. If you find yourself out of mana a lot, then get more +int gear. If you find that you've always got more than enough mana, then you can probably give up some of your +int gear for +damage gear. Be familiar with your character, how you play, and adjust from there.

[rgirty]

Balance int and +dmg.

[Stigg]

Balance int and +dmg.

And have a weapon that is "of spirit" in your inventory so that when you DO run oom, you can easily exchange weapons, havea huge boost of spirit, evocate, and be back at full.

[rgirty]

I'm not an advocate of weapon switching. I'll probably get some bashing for this but as it goes.