Too many D!!!

[Drpep]

Ok, I don't know what my fellow horde players have been smokin, but when did it become feasable to not give any resistance in an AV battle. Before the x-bg mix, horde side won 9 out of 10 av battleson my server. We would keep 5 to 10 on defense at all times and 30 on O. Games where quick and painless. Now i join an AV and look at the map. 30 to 35 horde are zerging, racing, to the alli side. 2 or 3 are fishing or sitting in the entrace cave. Usually some fool is trying to cap snawfall. But no defense.

When there is a defense of more then 3, the spam starts that there are not enough on O and too many on D. Then the alli place 5 at the bridge and we loose. Loose about as many was we once won, before the bg merge.

I just cant comprehend what these guys on these other servers are thinking. Are they just so used to loosing they dont care? Everyone knows that since the av revamp that its lopsided play, easier toward the alli. If you took all 40s and put them in the middle of the av zone, had them race to the keeps without any fights, it would take horde at least 5 more min to clear to the boss then alli.

Maybe this is just a probelm in my battlegroup. All i know is that it sucks to be able to tell if you are gonna loose just by viewing troop movements in the first 2 min of play.

[Oatmealsmurf]

LOL... I spent all day Saturday in AV grinding the last 11K rep I needed for exalted. Boy do I feel your pain. Though you must play on a good horde side server because the changes in AV from what I've heard from most and definitely on mine have made things a bit easier on the Horde. My first toon was a Hunter so I wanted to do AV to ge the IBS for him and eventually I just plain gave up because we never got close to winning.

It was beyond frustrating because we constantly steamrolled Alliance in AB and WSG but we never got close to winning an AV. It was so rare in fact that when Horde won AV people would announce the win in general and guild chat. Since the changes Horde started winning a lot more....

However that being said... it's exactly like you say. When horde plays def we stand a chance... when it's a full 40 zerg we get destroyed. Always seem to get hung up at SP against 10 alliance defenders... will 30 alliance just plow through our NPCs for an easy victory.

[Herald of Doom]

I've gone from 0 rep with av to 4000/6000 without a single loss. I've never seen Horde try any D so i don't know if it works :)

HoD

[Eore]

You Horde have it sooo easy. I play in a PvE realm and do BG's for 2 hours or so 3-4 days per week. In WSG we get owned by Horde. And I blame two people for this. Leaders and morons who don't listen to leaders.

For the first time in like 150 battles (WSG), we actually won two in a row! Shocking, I know. But the stradegy was simple, 3/4 on D. Horde all rushed in, and though we were out numbered, we slowed them down to the point that when they made it to mid field, our flag was already crossed, and those of us who rez'd started hitting them again. Captured their flag and ours planted. It worked!! We had one good leader, some noobs (40-43's), and people who listened.

Then it all falls apart. Next 10 battles, no one says a peep. No leaders step up and offer their stradegy, it's one big free for all and we die, over and over again. Also had the battles that a leader speaks up (guys with rank and know how), and maybe 3 of us listened. The other morons floated around and farmed kills, which doesn't work morons in that you can't solo in WSG!

I'm in BG's for the kills and rep. I like winning (competitive, me?). Losing is frustrating when only teams win in BG's.

That and the other thing that's frustrating is all you horde who are twinked to the nines! I can crit hit you 4-5 times for 500-800 damage, and for some reason, I can't even slow you down! How many HP's and armor do you have? I recognize some of the stuff and you are all wearing blue and purple, at the 40 level!! I'm a greeny with a few lucky blue drops. I don't have the money to keep up with you!

But some D works! Get you a hunter or two in the room with a Warlock and watch the fun happen!

Anyone have more success in Alliance on AB?

[Oatmealsmurf]

Yes Horde is the only side that twinks. LOL... I don't understand why Alliance loses in WSG all the time. I don't see any map advantages or anything like in AV. Tell all your buddies to stop using the exploit on the roof though. That's really lame.

[Grendo]

Yes Horde is the only side that twinks. LOL... I don't understand why Alliance loses in WSG all the time. I don't see any map advantages or anything like in AV. Tell all your buddies to stop using the exploit on the roof though. That's really lame.Mainly I put this difference to population more than anything. Horde (generally) have a much smaller population, and therefore work better together. In an alliance PUG BG, its rare to find people youve played with before. Nevermind everything else that was said about people paying attention, or not trying to HK farm due to the belief that its impossible to win (a false one at that).

Others have mentioned the power of shamans (of which I dont believe), which at 60 I can see in WSG (AB I give paladins an edge), but not enough to explain the disparity. The proof will be several weeks in the expansion when theres no class differences anymore.

Personally, its normally because I watch horde work together, and zomgheal, while alliance are off trying to be single heroes. This was most obvious last night, where while leading, I managed to get our team up 2-0. AV hit, and many people left, the new group not only sucked horribly, but wouldnt even listen to direction. Because of this 2 on Horde defense were able to consistently hold the flag, while the 8 horde on O proceeded to own mid and every single 'hero' in between. It was terribly upsetting.

The lack of a class disparity is even more obvious in a premade vs premade. In recent weeks Ive yet to see an alliance premade (assuming T2+) lose to a horde T2+ premade.

[Fynious]

Well, I've stated this before.. with the recent changes to AV (removing of NPCs) the Alliance have figured out they can rush down to the Horde base and move right into Drek's area with little to no resistance from NPCs in the Horde base. As an Alliance you can actually ride your mount all the way to Dreks room and not get hit one time or aggro one NPC.

The Horde on the other hand start getting hit by arrows before they are even off the bridge and you have NPCs stationed so that it's impossible to make it into Van's area without getting aggro. So with the help of 30+K hp elite NPCs it takes far fewer Alliance to mount a good defense.

Advantage Alliance.

With that being said I was in an AV last night where the Horde actually did exactly what we needed to do and we still lost because the players on the Horde side were just poor PvP'ers.

If you want to win as a Horde player you need to have good team work. You do need 1-2 groups of people to go on D, but not to stop the Alliance just to slow them down. They are going to take SF, IB then FW. Thats fine. Let them take them, retreat and have them chase you into the base. Then 1-2 groups need to peel off of the main Offensive group and take back SF, IB then most importantly take back FW before the Relief Hut is capped. That way the closest point they can rez at is SP. The two groups in the base then join with the two groups that just took FW back and flank the remaining alliance in our base. With the Alliance unable to rez close you will take them out very easy. Then those four groups need to mount and rush as fast as they can to SH tower where the other four groups are just holding them back. Turn in blood as much as you can, and when you control the SH choke point have 10 players run back summon LOK and then push them back to SP as far as you can. Let LOK help you take SP and then push them back to the Aid Station. Protect SP until you have the Aid Station Capped and you can win.

It's not easy and people have to do whats needed and play well. AV is setup for the Alliance to win at this time. All Blizzard has to do is make it so our towers can hit players are they enter our base area just like the Alliances towers and make it so they have to run by just as many elite npcs as we do and it will be fair.

Fynious.

PS: Even with it being unfair I still like playing AV over AB and WSG. Can't wait to see the new Battle Grounds and Outlands from the expansion.

[Drpep]

Had a really good av battle last night. We had 10 on defense and Alli had about the same. Becasue of our Defense we kept the alli at bay at iceblood for 3 hours. I know 3 hours is way too long, but the point defense wins the game. The decideing victory for the horde. But only reason the game is not still going, was because we got Loc up. Still not sure how since our defense battles were basicly on top of the summon spot. Truely an epic battle.

But taking in consideration our weaknesses in AV. This same battle would have been 20 minutes long for an Ally victory if their offense just skipped our defense line and ran straight to the relief hut. Tell you the truth, I am not sure why they are not doing that already.

[Fynious]

I don't know why I tortue myself with AV anymore. Most of the good horde players avoid AV like the plague since it's so much more difficult to obtain a victory for the horde. I guess it's the large battles that I like. The 20 on 20 clashes that really interest me.

Well, last night we had a pretty good game going. We had 2-3 groups on Defense and they slowed the Alliance down a bit so when we had SH and the SH tower they were just rolling to FW. I broke off of the Offensive unit and took SF and IB myself. About that time the Alliance were just taking the relief hut in our base. Of course they all rushed down there leaving no defense at the FW flag. I along with 2-3 other horde players proceeded to take the FW flag back and trap the Alliance in the base with no where to rez for the next 3.5 minutes. The 3 groups that were on defense rez'd in the cave and gathered the folks around the FW flag and pushed into our base. We caught the alliance with thier pants down fighting the marshalls and we took back the Relief Hut and crushed the Alliance.

Right about that time the rest of the horde was pushing down the road towards SP. The 15-20 or so players in our base rushed up to SH tower just in time due to the fact that all the alliance players rez'd up north and were pushing back hard. We went back and forth for a little while but due to the fact we were closer to our rez point we started to make progress towards SP. We had them bottlenecked up north and I thought for a moment we might win......

Well, we split up and went low road and high road and took SP fairly quickly (I was very surprized). Then the stalmate started.. Trying to take the bridge with all those archers and NPCs helping the Alliance it's very difficult. We started losing people left and right as they got frustrated and AFK'd out. Then the Alliance started mounting people from the cave and running down to our base. With just 7 people in our base they SINGLE pulled the remaining 2 marshalls and then killed Drek just about the same time as we were finally taking the Aid Station.

I think thats my last AV until blizzard does something about this. It's a LOSE/LOSE situation for the Horde in AV. No matter what we do we can not both attack the Alliance base and keep a handful of players from going down to our base and killing Drek.

Blizzard... Fix AV...

Fyn

[Oatmealsmurf]

Taking SF when you're horde is always a mistake.... That's the other frustrating thing in AV when you get 1-3 stubborn people who insist on trying to ninja SF.You never want to have to face getting over that bridge with the entire Alliance team turtled up inside. There is no way to get across that bridge if they have even 20 people on offense. Alliance forces must be split in order for you to win AV.

If you hadn't captured SF I bet you would have won... because instead of rezzing in their tunnel and being on defense against your push through stormpike... they would have been regrouping to take back FW.

[Leonavice]

I think for the Horde, defense is a little harder because the only 2 choke points you have are the path leading to Iceblood graveyard and the hill leading to the East/West Frostwolf Tower. Whereas for the Alliance, they have the entire valley leading to SP GY from Icewing garrison as a choke point, as well as the bridge where there is a 60+ NPC guarding it as well. Not to mention the first aid station's flag is so close to the quartermaster/ram turn-ins/vendors etc whereas the relief hut is tucked into 1 corner of the whole Horde base.

[Geze]

Why do these horde players think that taking SF and turtling alliance will work? besides with your short ques you want a quick game, alliance players dont mind a longer game as much and will stay in it while you guys /AFK out.

[Farq]

Most horde I know dont want a quick game, they just want a game that they feel they have an equal chance to win. People dont afk out cause its taking too long, they tend to afk out cause 30 mins with no progress and not having any sign of making any within the next 30 mins makes people get angry and they leave from pure frustration. I have been in groups that have been trying to get into the Alliance base and have spent 40-45 mins just at SP trying to get into the alliance base past all the guards and such shooting you from the towers and not get any further in... I am pretty sure they lost but I just got sick of getting my face pwned as I tried to enter the base and I left myself to go do WSG and AB where I have an equal chance of scoring 3 marks instead of 1

[DreamScaper]

The only BG I have done so far is WSG. It does seem that Horde typically wins, and I can tell you from personal experience what does and does not work for teams.

Communication.

It pisses me off a silent team then all of a sudden comes some jack-arse who wants to belittle every one on the team that none of us is trying. That he went to get the flag and did anybody help him? No.

Just the other day this guy was complaining about that, so I asked...did you tell anybody that you are going for the flag and ask for backup? His response was that I should have looked at my map and see his dot. Uhm no, I'm not going to look for 20 dots and figure out what each person is doing. I look to see where I can be most helpful at. If I see fighting I'll run over to assist. If I see a lone person running I'll run on the side of him cuz 2 is better then 1. After I die I'll make a U-turn to see if I'm needed on D. If I join in late I'll ask am I better suited on D or O.

Another problem with communication is bad communcation - which leads to pissed off players. Someone may say "Lets group up and attack". Group up where? Attack what? Where should I meet you? Do you want to pull people off D? Exactly where do you want to meet and what are we going to attack and how are we going to attack it? But all they say is "group up". over and over and over again.

Also, flag carriers are inexperienced. I am so I dont carry. I'll wait around the Alliance FR until someone else carries. But those who do dont direct. As a hunter I may run ahead of the carrier to pick off possible alliance down the path. Then i turn around...where did he go? Or, I may stand behind and pick them off being chased. By then the runner is so far advanced and just getting killed. Doesnt say which way he is going. Doesnt ask D which entrance way is clear to go. Doesnt say how people should protect him. Maybe my way of assisting the runner is flawed..but nobody has told me otherwise.

And I dont know about anybody else, but hearing people complain all the time really pisses me off. Someone died and wasnt being healed so its everybody's fault. Well, if I see you fighting then I'm not going to assist you. I dont rely on heals, although its so awsome when someone is healing me and i can do my thing alot better then normal.

This ultimately, I think wins BG. Good solid communication. Sure leaders are good, but some people might not be as experienced and not know what to do. If you tell them to go D, they'll do a wonderful job or tell them to do something, they'll do a great job because they know what to do. If you dont say anything and just complain, they will be ineffective. We all become ineffective when there is nothing resembling team work.

[Thoragord]

The problem with being specific in warsong is stopping while carrying the flag or what not to give a message, on my server stopping means death.

However overall you are defenitely correct, communication is the reason all loses warsong and AB all the time. I was in a winning warsong for the second time since a started playing 2 days ago. There was actually communication and one of those magic groups where people somehow just know what to do.

In AB I was in one that came close to winning because someone jumped up as leader right away and i did my best to give my group commands but as allways in all there are several people who ignore everyone and just run wherever. Otherwise I think we could have gotten it. My group ran to the mines and the initial fight took 5 min. After the the horde took it back with a twnked out rogue on their side that took my forever to kill. Then once we all died and they took the flag we had to rez at blacksmith and everyone was just being a lemming. I got them to regroup at stable and we took it back and held ut to the end taking the farm in the last minute as well. It was still fun even though we lost.

Biggest reason alliance wins AV(just a guess) all players get tired of losing WG and AB so play AV, horde gets tired of losing AV and plays AB and WG were they win all the time, therefore best all players are in AV ad best horde in other two.

[DreamScaper]

Thats what amazes me about complainers...where do they get the time? I wait until i die before I say anything...or if i can say something quickly while auto run i will, but more then half the time i esc out of what im saying just so i can stop running and fight.

[Pallas]

I encountered the other end of the spectrum last night. Out of 40 horde, 37 of them stayed home and played D.

They held us off on the pathway/tower leading up to Drek's castle for 2hrs, 30min.

They tried no offence at all, up until that point.

I think they must have gotten bored, cause at the 150 min mark, they tried to do some offense and the game was over for them 11 minutes later.

How I'm managing to be awake at work today is beyond me....

Bring back the 20 min Alliance zerg!

[perfectbody]

well i think that after 5/6 losses in wsg as a newcommer you can see what does not work.... therefore "pic up the ball" and step out saying what does not work to yourself,therefore what might work. once you have found that none in defence vs horde full of shamans or hunters does not work you can say to people (group 1 in D group 2 in O) and arrange the groups accordingly!!! another thing that you can say to people is that after picking up the flag going tunnel is a bottleneck and horde just (hamstring wing clip etc) slow you down and kill you. you can also see that going horde GY is a bad idea if your defence has just helled out on a horde atack so go ramp!!!
also wsg is not all about killing the best wsg i have been in was with my lvl 49 (im a big fan of *9's so have a 19-29-49 39 is gonna be twinked soon so is lvl 36 atm) and there was 0 kills just slowing down of horde and sheeping the one time they got together for an atack we just got all to meet middle centre and frost nova aoe and dps priests shamans druids first and the dps fell fast (5 seconds on eack with 3x AOE and 3 dps rogues)
you can also see that pre mades from aliance and horde work together using a TS server or ventrillo (i personally made a TS and got my team to go on it if they had a TS and with 5/10 of us on it it worked for defence) against a pre made you are pretty much screwed BUT!!!! if you get AOE in the tunnel and wariors and rogues to stay mid tunnel and healers to heal them there pre made suddenly looks verry small in comparison to your defence!! (i play wsg mostly as i can lead in this environment having been one of you complaining about it and deciding to do something about it (wish i could explain faster but my typing is average and have little time to do it now) but 1. kill healers dps dies 2. stay away from wariors til later on in first encounter they got too much hp to kill fast 3. 4 D and 6 O works a treat (if horde get a big inc 9 D 1 rogue stealthing offence pic up flag sap any defender gouge the next etc and sprint asay by the time your half way the horde offence is dead and your home free to score!! get a macro telling D to help you in tunnel and wil kil any followers you have !!)

[Ebgreen]

There is probably some good advice in that brick of text somewhere, I just couldn't find it.

[ludevtec]

Alliance has 2 major advantages in AV.The extra midget npcs in base that aggro. And also a terrain advantage fw is so much easier to go around and take then sp.

As horde we win about 40% of the time in my battlegroup. We lose almost everytime we play without defense.