The end of MC and BWL as we know it?

[det]

Ruinz recently linked a few green items that already at level 61 had amazing stats. With the beta only a short time away..and the release date maybe before the end of the year, I was asking myself on our latest Razorgore and Vael wipefest:

"Is there any point in doing this"? And come expansion..is there any point in doing this for anybody then?

The learning curve in BWL is just so intense, Chromaggus and Nef eventually such crazy fights....and the instance, other than the 5 man Instances resets only once a week..so what is there that would bring people to punish themselves in there?

Has actually anyone on the alpha testservers raided in there and found like "Oh Tier 2 epics have sockets and are valuable to have even at a higher level in BC"?

Because frankly, by the time any raidgroup with have a chance to learn BWL, the members can have levelled from 60 to 65...maybe beyond.

Pretty much the same with MC....by the time we had Ragnaros down, 4 months passed...even if levelling in BC from 60-70 is as slow as levelling from 1-60 in the original game...in 4 months grinding you can whack out some nice levels...

Any thoughts?

[Idol]

It'll just be another instance 10 levels below you, like ST is now. There'll be no point raiding it.

[Sikhander]

My take is that it does not make sense to do lvl60 instances before going to outlands (disclaimer: we do not have the full picture yet, but everything so far indicates this). The quest rewards in TBC are just so good it is better to move to outlands directly and do a few 5-man instance runs there (more fun, equal rewards - Naxx and end AQ40 items are better but not with a huge margin).

[det]

It'll just be another instance 10 levels below you, like ST is now. There'll be no point raiding it.

Yeah, that was my first thought....just the two things I mentioned make the 40 man instances a bit different to be "another" instance: Resets only once week and bosses/trash require much more teamplay than whatever you face in STV/Strat/Scholo etc.

Well..they will still serve a purpose for those who don't buy BC.

On the other hand..MC and BWL have served the community for almost 2 years now..maybe Blizzard just doesn't care if they get passed by...

..and there is still Naxx. Indeed we don't have the full picture, but chances are that the "use" on the legendary staff that can be crafted in Naxx means only with it can you enter the ultimate (?) dungeon in BC, Medivh's tower.

Hmm..same as MC, BWL...there is probably no point in CC rep after all?

[Idol]

Ok then, it'll be like ST, but hard. ;D

MC/BWL/Naxx gear will only be any good for leveling, Naxx gear might last to 70, but I doubt it.

So why would people do these instances? They require 40 men, can only be done once a week and give gear equal to that lvl 65 blue you just got. Maybe for fun, but not for loot.

[construct]

Remember not everyone is going to buy the expansion. "Endgame" content still needs to exist for these people.

[yavvy]

But for those who do... Raggy and the rest will be pensioned.

[kcma]

u know this all makes who happy <3

[WatcherZero]

when you think about the bell curve for exp, levels 65-70 are gonna be a *****. rememember when you ran an instance and gained two levels? yep thats not gonna happen, infact you could probably do one complete run of every instance at level 69 and not hit 70, the existing gear is gonna last a lot longer than people think unless they are power grinding to 70.

[det]

The only thing that speaks against it taking MUCH too long is that Blizzard wants to release a new expansion every year...so unless they eventually only want the Hardcore gamers to buy them, the content of TBC should be explorable within a year----

---then again..not everyone was in AQ40 or Naxx in the time that the original game is out...

Oh well..we shall see what we shall see...

[Yogo]

From what I've heard, level 60-62, is gonna take as long as level 55-60.

[Gealach]

Remember that mobs generally drop items a few levels below their own, so most of the level 61+ drops will drop off mobs level 64+ (prolly more like level 66+). Most if not all drops in Hellfire Peninsula will have level reqs below 60.

I think it will be a few levels before MC etc. start to become useless. By level 70 tho, you prolly won't need it anymore. MC is too expensive to do a full clear just for fun.

[Leviathonlx]

People will run them for fun still especially maybe running them at level 66 or so and being able to clear both MC and BWL with only 25 people hehe.

I can't see how MC can be too expensive to be fun unless you are a group whose never been there before then maybe it will be too expensive to clear it.

Naxx gear will easily last till level 70 and tier 3 would start getting replaced by the gear from Tempest Keep and Black Temple. MC gear will easily start being replaced by the leveling instances with BWL gear lasting till the later 60's with small upgrades in areas before then.

[Braanor]

Do you have a link to the green items that Ruinz posted? Currently im rank 13 going to rank 14 and im in the process of deciding if another month of my life is worth grinding for 60dps weapons that may be replaced within the first few weeks of TBC.

[Doombringer]

Let's see... someone who recently hit 60 can say...

LFG 39 more for MC

or

LFG 4 more for HFC

I wonder which one he'll go with...

Come the expansion, MC/BWL/AQ.. heck, even ZG and AQ20.. will be like ST or even Blackrock Depths is to a 60 right now. In fact, they'll be even more difficult to form groups for and ultimately master. Yeah, "endgame" has to exist for those who don't buy the expansion, but how easy will it be for them to find 30+ more that WANT to go to Molten Core?

[Leviathonlx]

Really the instances will be there for current raiding guilds to go back to, to see content they had down already. Its not like you need 40 people for MC or BWL or the beginning of AQ40 :p

[Kyusoath]

i believe this will allow players that could not do MC,AQ,BWL and naxx a chance to do it, at level 70, it'd be pretty damn hard to wipe in AQ even with 20-30 players

[det]

Do you have a link to the green items that Ruinz posted? Currently im rank 13 going to rank 14 and im in the process of deciding if another month of my life is worth grinding for 60dps weapons that may be replaced within the first few weeks of TBC.

I kinda hope he will walk in here and give you a hint, because the site that he posted was not supposed to be linked by the forum rules. Alternatively you can do a search for posts by "ruinz" (he has made about 40 so far..shouldn't be too hard to find the right one)

i believe this will allow players that could not do MC,AQ,BWL and naxx a chance to do it, at level 70, it'd be pretty damn hard to wipe in AQ even with 20-30 players

Ah..my favorite misconception. Given that for example Twin emperors retaliate if you attack the wrong one with the wrong kind of magic and C'Thun's "If I look at you, you are dead" attacks...from BWL on, the 40 man Instances are as much about tactics as they are about gear...foul it up and you wipe... ;)

[yavvy]

Let's see... someone who recently hit 60 can say...

LFG 39 more for MC

or

LFG 4 more for HFC

I wonder which one he'll go with...

Come the expansion, MC/BWL/AQ.. heck, even ZG and AQ20.. will be like ST or even Blackrock Depths is to a 60 right now. In fact, they'll be even more difficult to form groups for and ultimately master. Yeah, "endgame" has to exist for those who don't buy the expansion, but how easy will it be for them to find 30+ more that WANT to go to Molten Core?
Not to mention that you get ALOT more xp in a 5-man than a raid.

[kcma]

well, against lvl 64 mobs, even the best purple gears now will struggle. not because of dps, but because of the lvl difference.

and no lvl 61 gear wont have to wait fo 64 mobs. that's random world drops. instance bosses drop the right gear for you at the right lvl. just gotta figure out how to run it with the men and gear you have.

i think ppl expecting BC to be easier for looting gear would be unpleasantly surprised. i think what 10/25 does for gamers is provide a bigger challenge while removing the logistics of 40men. every one of the 10/25 will have to be as good or better than the 40men today. if you're /gbooted for raid incompetance now, you wont get far in BC either. but if you were a good player who wasn't able to raid before. there are new contents now.

***

if the new 10/25 are just higher lvl scholo/ubrs. that'd be a huge disappointment. and from what bliz are saying we can assume that won't happen <3

[WatcherZero]

I just had a disturbing thought. the sheer number of instances 60-70 (I can count roughly 15 including wings) is gonna diminsish availble players. if you think about it you have 10non-end game instances at moment that can take a while to find people for (Brd, UBRS, LBRS, scholo, both sides strat and DM wings) and you know how impossiible it is to find groups for those, i dare anyone to find an LBRS group in under 2 hours.

[Goretusker]

OK first of all the point in doing end game raid instances is that its the point of end game pve. It's fun its challenging, if you do it solely for the items, well what a sad little life that must be.

Second of all BWL and up will not be like ST is now, If you get 40 lvl 70's to vael or Nef or even Firemaw who don't now the first thing about those encounters they are gonna die hopelessly just like lvl 60s that is because these fights need control and coordination even if they seem futile for good raiding guilds.

[det]

He..just my point (made with AQ 40 and Naxx however).

Who knows...Blizzard still might implement recipes or quests that need things from those Instances...like you need to kill Onyxia for your T2 head and for the scales that are turned into cloaks for BWL. Maybe Elementium Ore becomes the Nexus crystals of tomorrow...

[yavvy]

I just had a disturbing thought. the sheer number of instances 60-70 (I can count roughly 15 including wings) is gonna diminsish availble players. if you think about it you have 10non-end game instances at moment that can take a while to find people for (Brd, UBRS, LBRS, scholo, both sides strat and DM wings) and you know how impossiible it is to find groups for those, i dare anyone to find an LBRS group in under 2 hours.2 HOURS???

Early in the morning... perhaps... :ponder:

Really, getting a group for LBRS at any sensible hour shouldn't take more than 30 mins.

As for the instances, I guess it will be pretty much like now - LFG LBRS / strat UD / scholo. No problem :thumbsup:

[Leviathonlx]

It won't be that bad considering most players will be doing this instances within there guilds.

[WatcherZero]

:P Am on a very mature server, roughly 3rd generation alts are at MC-BWL level now, only non end game instances still run is UBRS for gear/books strat for shards and Orbs.

[kcma]

i hate 'mature' servers.

[zkajan]

:P Am on a very mature server, roughly 3rd generation alts are at MC-BWL level now, only non end game instances still run is UBRS for gear/books strat for shards and Orbs.
same here lol

[Gealach]

The reason why MC is expensive for a full run is that Ragnaros uses abilities that specifically do durability damage to armor. Maybe if you ran it with no melee it wouldn't be so bad.

[Leviathonlx]

The reason why MC is expensive for a full run is that Ragnaros uses abilities that specifically do durability damage to armor. Maybe if you ran it with no melee it wouldn't be so bad.

The damage isn't that bad.

[Gealach]

The damage isn't that bad.


I'll take your word for it. Maybe the melee I have run it with just whine too much.

[kcma]

well, whining is fun <3

[skazz]

I wonder most about whether any 40-50 active player guilds will remain. Sure, you can have a main group in a 25-man instance and others in the 5-10 man instances, but I'm expecting many guilds to slim down to the core group, and shed the "hangers on".

I think MC and BWL will become the PuG raids of choice for people looking for an easy way to equip their level 60 alts during the grind to 70. They will be taking their mains into the BC instances, obviously.

[kcma]

i dont think bwl can be PUGed.

[drachedeeis]

Remember taht BWL and MC will be alot easier. They probably will be the instance of choice to gear up, unless quest and 5 man loot completely blows everything out of the water.

And considering some of the things we're talking about (ToEP Nef's Tear for starters I don't know much about melee.) That would be a distrubing result. Not that I'd mind I guess but it will shatter any balance tween those with the the expanision and those without.

[Raistlin Majere]

You won't be pugging BWL. the fights are too intense and coordinated for the average pug to work. I can't see anyone getting past Vael with less than 30 people.

[Twoflower]

oooh the pleasure, finaly no more BWL !

[KalziEast]

Do you guys remember that Blizzard said "There will be difficulty settings" so they'll have higher power items when you pick the highest difficulty of the instance.

[Ecclesiastes]

Do you guys remember that Blizzard said "There will be difficulty settings" so they'll have higher power items when you pick the highest difficulty of the instance.

Those only apply to 5-mans shipping with TBC aimed at players in the early 60s. Nothing currently in game and nothing designed for level 70s will have a difficulty setting.

[Loriel]

I just had a disturbing thought. the sheer number of instances 60-70 (I can count roughly 15 including wings) is gonna diminsish availble players. if you think about it you have 10non-end game instances at moment that can take a while to find people for (Brd, UBRS, LBRS, scholo, both sides strat and DM wings) and you know how impossiible it is to find groups for those, i dare anyone to find an LBRS group in under 2 hours.

Note also that Blizzard will be raising the population caps on all servers, so there will basically be more players per realm. Previously full realms will be available as migration targets etc. Still, I think this could be a problem when leveling an alt (Dranaei or Blood Elf, perhaps) on a mature server, where the majority of the population will be lvl 60 and probably will be very much into the new content. Strat, Scholo, DM, UBRS etc might become ghost towns that nobody care to explore all that much, although I hope the increased population cap will keep them busy.

Regarding det's post about the future of MC and BWL, I think that's a very valid point. Blizzard seem to be deliberately introducing very powerful level-up gear, in order to put all players on equal footing from around lvl 65-66 or so. The hardcore raiders in Naxx gear will have an initial advantage, but this will diminish as we approach level 70 - at which point this arms race will start all over again. The phrase "loot reset" seems applicable for this process.

So is there even a point in doing MC and BWL these days? People could and should run them for the challenge and the sense of accomplishement, but not really for loot - you might as well wait for BC and pick up the new gear from the 5-mans therein. Personally I value challenge and fun over loot and phat epix any day of the week, but as I'm a casual raider with a limited raiding schedule it seems more attractive to temporarily retire my 60s in anticipation of The Burning Crusade. This means I'll never get to experience AQ40 and Naxx on the level for which they were designed, but that is more a consequence of real life resources (time) - or the lack thereof. I'll get there some day, and I don't care if I by this time have BC greens and blues that are better.

I think MC, BWL will still be run at 70 - although to a significantly lesser degree then currently. Like somebody has already touched upon in this thread, the major limiting factor to MC, BWL etc wrt loot is the instance reset timer. Even if you can breeze through MC / BWL at lvl 65 with maybe 15-20 players in 60-90 mins, you can only run the instance once per week. You're not guaranteed to get any drops that match your class sets, and getting 2 epic items per run would imho be above par. In a week's time you could run a BC 5-man instance 10+ times and possibly get a complete lvl 65 blue set, which is equal or superior to T1/T2. Players usually choose the path of least resistance, i.e. the method that yields the best possible results with minimum effort - and in this case I can't really blame them for choosing the 5-mans.

Bottom line is that I think MC and BWL have served their purpose to the community, and I think they will effectively be retired for BC players. It is probably safe to put ZG and AQ20 in that category as well. The AQ books are trainable at lvl 62, thereby eliminating one key reason to do AQ20. AQ40 and Naxx could still be viable, especially if you actually need Medivh's Staff to get access to Kharazan. I certainly can't wait to sample Naxxramas, even if it is at lvl 68..

[kcma]

someone will always run 40men. just like after zg/aq/40men raid are added to the game ppl still run uld and sm and brs.

it just wont be the only place to be anymore.

***

and easy or hard, there is no way you'll find 39 ppl in PUG who knows what to do and communicate well enough to take on raid content.

[Idol]

I don't see why people would want to raid MC or any of the others for gear. They're bloody hard, require tactics and communication, not to mention 39 other players, can only be done once a week and will give loot only marginally better than the stuff that drops from that lvl 64 over in Hellfire, and theres 50 of those standing there on a 60 sec respawn timer. Just what is the point?

[Valas Azuviir]

I don't see why people would want to raid MC or any of the others for gear. They're bloody hard, require tactics and communication, not to mention 39 other players, can only be done once a week and will give loot only marginally better than the stuff that drops from that lvl 64 over in Hellfire, and theres 50 of those standing there on a 60 sec respawn timer. Just what is the point?

Training, exactly to learn how to use proper tactics, communicate effectively etc. If, you can't do that, then you're going to have a rough ride during TBC as well. Whether 10 man or 40 man, in essence, it's the same issues. Proper tactics and proper communication win the day. Got a bunch of Rambo's running around and you end up dead and the mission failed.

[kcma]

idol: 10/25 won't be easier than 40raid <3 it just removes the logistics of getting 40 ppl together.

[Idol]

I suppose training could be a reason. Though I still think I'd rather train in the new raids, some people might like a more forgiving experience (and the 40 man raids will be more forgiving than the new 10/25 mans).

At KC: Yeah, I know, it's just that these 40 man raids will be equal (in loot level) to 5 mans. The new raids will still be just as hard, infact, with the cut in numbers and the higher emphasis on class' different skills, I belive they will be much harder.

[kcma]

i'm just happy that 40men raiding is history <3 if just so i can see raiders cry/whine :D

[Idol]

I liked the 40 man raids. They were fun.

[kcma]

"they are what they are..." -kc
"it is what it is..." -kc

quoting myself is fun :D

[Idol]

Jesus Christ! A post without a <3!

[kcma]

that was my angry post, fear me!

[Idol]

/run away



<3

[kcma]

see, u miss the <3 already.

[Idol]

I do, I do.

Well, I must be off, it's almost midnight here and I have homework in for tommorrow. :D

Before I go I'll observe one minutes silence for 40 man raids.

[drachedeeis]

Regardless of loot I think guilds that intend to run the 25 man and 10 man content will ask people to learn on MC, BWL AQ 40 and Naxx. Bliz has stated that the raid content in BC will be more difficult then Naxx contining the circle.

[kcma]

... no offense but that idea sounds retarded... just learn on the fly... getting 40 ppl together is HARD, which is the whole reason to have 10/25 in the first place.

[Crudesash68]

Well, since I have only been playing for 2.5 months, and my main is at lvl 42, I certainly hope that folks will still want to run MC, BWL, and all the other instances...if you want to run those instances for the RL experience of having done it, regardless of the outcome, then you think like I do, that you want to explore all the areas of the game. I might be in a raid of MC only once, and may not even find a blue drop I can use, but I at least would have had the experience. It's ironic that I will probably only have about 2-3 weeks of time at lvl 60 before the XP comes out, after having mapped out a complete list of the instances I wanted to run, of which now it seems many folks may lose interest in...well, hopefully there'll still be interest for dreamers like me.

Steve

[kcma]

if you can do lvl 70 25men. you can take those other 24 guys with u and do MC/BWL with 25 ppl :) just so you have that IRL exp of having done it *wink*

[Seluhir]

For tranquilizing shot. lol

[Oatmealsmurf]

A lot may depend on what kind of materials are going to be required for crafting professions and how desireable those items are. If you need cores, nexus crystals, bloodvine, elementium etc. for desirable items people will be forced to continue raiding those instances. Particularly Molten Core and ZG.

I can easily see guilds running MC for purely the nexus crystals if they become bigger in crafting and enchants. And let's not forget the desireable recipes that drop. I have a hard time believing that people will stop wanting to buy Spellpower, Healingpower enchants for weapons or shadow/frost power for gloves.

I don't think they will be completely abandoned. It will be something that guilds do like my guild does ZG now. No scheduled raid but a lot of people online wanting to do something... Let's go to ZG.

Incidentally I bet MC becomes much easier overall with 25 lvl 70s... and Ragnoros particularly will be easy. Whine about repair bills all you want but I bet 40 mans who have him down right now... put 25 lvl 70's in there and have Rags down before the first wave of Suns. No one will get knocked back because it will be easy to space. Should be really easy.

The only fights I can think of where people might have to come up with a different angle are Domo and Garr because of the number of adds, you're not gonna have 5 locks to banish .... or 5 mages to sheep. BWL will not be pugged. I don't see a pug making it past Razorgore... much less Vael. Even the people familiar with the fight have different strategies so on the far fetched chance that you get 40 lvl 60s who know BWL... then you have to hope everyone is on the same page. But some people tank the legionnaires while some people kite them. Some people have warriors do all the kiting... some people use hunters. Some people chain fear. If everyone isn't on the same page or doesn't know every tactic you're gonna wipe ... because all you need is for a few stray mobs to break the MCer.

It's a level of coordination that isn't seen in MC.

[MellanCholera]

My prediction is they'll get nerfed so you can do them with 20 or 25, otherwise, you're not going to get 40 people at 60-65 to wipe over and over when they can go to a 5 man and get almost as good gear.

Though remember they said levelling 60 to 70 will take as long as it took to lvl to 1 to 60, so for some of us that's a few months, for kcma it will be 4 days /played ;)

I just think so because they nerfed most of the other lvl 60 instances to 5, then made them easier. So changing dungeons is certainly something they will do to encourage people to go. But I suppose they'll wait to see how many people are still going, maybe 4-6 months after the expansion comes out they'll start making some changes.

[djiss]

I want to thank blizzard for that change cuz there's 3 thing I hate about 40 man raid:

a) you need 40 man
b) reset once in a week.
c) was only there to slow down the single character progression in end-game.

IMO, the only purpose to have 40+ player is for something like AV. It's Army vs Army, not all vs 1. You have lot of man but they are splited over the map for defense/offense/capture. They should put something like defend a castle.

Or in a dungeon where you NEED to split your force. You send several of your man in a way to disactivate a protection glyph, open a door, while other are going on another goal, then you all end in the same place for a final fight. Alpha team go to a wing and open a door to the raid, while Delta team take care of some guard roaming on another level who can give alarm if they saw your raid in the bottom level (balcony...). THAT is how I think 40 man raid should be. You know, strategy like in Rainbow Six.

Actually the only challenge I see in boss fight it to find the right synchronized dance. The purpose of having 40 man is only to have more dps/heal than the boss. If you know the dance, your tank soak enough damage, your healer heal more than the boss damage, your dps group do enough damage to kill the boss before your healer run out of mana, all that with 20 man, there no point to go with 40man any more.

40man after BC will be like 10man raiding SM @ lv25-30 but with a reset timer.

[kcma]

i agree... even tho 40men keeps getting more and mroe complex... it is what it is... a huge timesink to keep RAIDers busy, and something for nonRAIDers to hope to get into a raiding guild.

[Dynatos]

For tranquilizing shot. lol

It will be trainable at L62.

[Smeep]

The reason why MC is expensive for a full run is that Ragnaros uses abilities that specifically do durability damage to armor. Maybe if you ran it with no melee it wouldn't be so bad.

Really?? I find that I generally come out of a MC raid around 10g in profit after repairing. In fact I'm running BWL and MC raids with my guild when ever I can to pay for the the wipe fest that is the Twin Emporers in AQ40.

[Gealach]

We already established that it was just rogues and tanks whining Smeep.

BWL does make a tidy profit tho for sure. We stopped running MC as a regular raid.

[mesonm]

The reason why MC is expensive for a full run is that Ragnaros uses abilities that specifically do durability damage to armor. Maybe if you ran it with no melee it wouldn't be so bad.

The reason Mc might be expensive is due to the lack of experience a given group has with the instance, resulting in more deaths, or even a *gasp* wipe on or before Rag.

Alt runs with experienced but less geared players are not hard at all...

[mesonm]

You won't be pugging BWL. the fights are too intense and coordinated for the average pug to work. I can't see anyone getting past Vael with less than 30 people.

Why did you pick 'less than 30 people'?

And, 'past vael' still implies that you think Razorgore is puggable...which is BWL...

I think that the major problem in pugging it will be the raid timers...

[djiss]

The reason why MC is expensive for a full run is that Ragnaros uses abilities that specifically do durability damage to armor. Maybe if you ran it with no melee it wouldn't be so bad.

like that (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9024435764919244981)?

[Gealach]

Heh, the all-mage Rags kill video is one of my favorites. =)

[ruinz]

I think one huge thing in BC is the lowered ivalue on Stamina on items. I think people are overlooking this when they make claims about how terribly hard BWL is and how no-one will ever PUG it etc. blah blah blah.

The thing that makes BWL hard is not that it's amazingly "technical". I know some people get off on pretending it is, especially when that's as far as their guild has advanced, and they can't even concieve of how "technical" the fights in AQ40 and Naxx. I know people like to make out that because their guild can't get past Chromaggus, he must be an amazingly hard fight that no PUG will ever do. The fact is though, most of what makes BWL hard is that the mobs hit like atomic weapons and the tanks really just can't get that many HP.

The technicality of the fights requires good LEADERSHIP and players who LISTEN, not a non-PUG setup. A lot of fights are simply about standing in the right place, having the correct gear on, or knowing where to move to when it's time to move. What matters in these is that this information is correctly and fully communicated to the players. If you've got a leader who can do this, and some players who listen, you'll succeed.

The thing is, though, CURRENTLY in WoW, all those leaders and maybe 60-70% of players who listen are in raiding guilds, because that's the place where it's most advantageous to have those traits, where you'll get the most mileage out of being like that. It's not that the raiding guilds themselves are competant, or that raiding is an attractive idea, even, it's that if you're a compentant player who listens, the best place for you to be, if you want to get better gear, is in a raiding guild. It's simply the design of the game channelling (arguably forcing) good, cooperative players in that direction.

If you took 2 actually good players from 20 different guilds, you could probably do BWL far more easily than the average "raiding guild" does. This is because aside from a few freakish "champion" guilds who are lucky to have almost entirely good players, most "raiding guilds" are 25% good, 25% good at taking orders, 25% mediocre, and 25% bad. The raiding guild I used to be in was exceptional in that maybe 30% of the players were good and 50% good at taking orders. Even then, there were still mediocre and bad players hanging around because they were people's friends, or no-one dared to argue with them because they were officers/founding members of the guild, or just because they were well-liked, or had somehow appeared competant at one time.

I seem to be getting off-topic, but here's my point:

Combine the following:

1) Guild break-up, fracture, people levelling at different rates due to BC, and just general drama and stress generated by new gear, new instances, new opportunities, and the sudden 25-man instance limit on guilds with far more members than that. This will lead to a lot of players being either unguilded, in newer smaller guilds, or willing to do things without their guildmates. Hence more competant and intelligent players will be available for what are technically "PUGs". I already know several people planning cross-guild "good player groups" for the 5 and 10 man dungeons, and these are going to create even more drama as bad or mediocre players are left out and whinge and whine, leading to even more fracturing.

2) Tonnes more Stamina on gear. Players with much higher armour values. Resilience as a stat. These things together will make tanks HUGELY more durable relative to the old bosses. I've personally witnessed how much less horrific a 3-5k damage attack is when a tank has near 10k hp than when he has 6k (though good/smart healing can get him through it in both cases). If that attack is now down to 2-4k and the tank has 12k hp (not unreasonable for a buffed tank at level 70 in tanking gear, I expect we'll see higher), then obviously it's a lot less of a threat.

3) Better aggro holding abilities - No-one can claim that Prot Warriors haven't gotten even better with BC, and even Feral Druids and filthy Paladins have better aggro holding abilities.

And you'll get a situation where BWL, with a good leader leading mostly good players, will be quite "PUG"-able. So long as everyone has Onyxia scale cloak or some equivalent for the Shadow Flames.

Personally I expect we'll also see BWL (and other instances) modified to be more "PUG raid"-friendly, with the timer/bind business perhaps being removed or modified in some way (not immediately, this will six months or so after BC I predict) and the gear that comes from them might be modified itself in some ways, possibly to have to more +sta amongst other things.

[djiss]

Great post.

Personally I expect we'll also see BWL (and other instances) modified to be more "PUG raid"-friendly, with the timer/bind business perhaps being removed or modified in some way (not immediately, this will six months or so after BC I predict) and the gear that comes from them might be modified itself in some ways, possibly to have to more +sta amongst other things.

I follow you in that, they need to review their raid timer for 40man. If it go for every 3 day like ZG/AQ, it could be ok.

[Oatmealsmurf]

Nah they would need to take away the timer period. Because once you're saved to an instance you can't go in with another PuG. You are going to have all sorts of problems with split instances. It won't be good.

And I still disagree that BWL will ever be PuGed. I don't consider getting people off your friends list who you've played with extensively and know to be good players as any sort of a PuG. A PuG is when you are picking up randoms. Not to mention... it's hard enough to get a quality PuG for UBRS as is... You think you're going to more than double the number of people required and get away with it? Not seeing it.

90% of the "good" players as you have classified them will be leveling and trying to get into the newer instances.... they aren't going to hang around racking up repair bills in Tier 2 gear with uncoordinated groups that can't manage Razorgore when their guilds previously had it on farm.

[skazz]

Think of it this way:

Imagine a zerg of level 52 elites when you are all level 50. Ow!
Then imagine a zerg of level 52 elites when you are all 60. Not exactly a challenge, is it?

Now extrapolate.

[KalziEast]

Eccle, actually, they said it would be applied to most, if not all instances.

[kcma]

skazz, not true. everything after MC (even MC) will wipe 40 lvl 70 PUG. they will always have too much HP/DPS and PUG will never have enough coordination, oh not to mention half of the 40 ppl will prolly be intellectually unfit anyway :p

[Naolin]

heh, I pug MC, Ony, ZG and AQ20 regurally with pretty much a full clear (Yes even AQ20 :O) so I wouldn't see why it would be any problem to do those instances with 70's. BWL AQ40 and naxx might be a problem

[LordXeper]

getting 40 ppl together is HARD

Not at all actually. Our guild always has enough online for MC/BWL/Whatever. I fail to see the point that people make that 40 people is hard to get. Proper recruitement will do this for you. Once you have made a name for yourself you will have people lining up to join you.

[kcma]

that make your guild among the minority of ppl who play the game. this reminds me of my mom telling me that all of her friends' kids make 80k+ a year because they're all doctors and lawyers, so what's so hard about making 80k+ a year the year after you graduate from school.

or a more wow-centric example. sure, making 1k gold from nothing in 4 days /played was easy for me. how many ppl do u think can pull that off? 40men is HARD to get.

***

Naolin: finding 19 other ppl off your friend list does not count as PUG. PUG is randomly picking up 19 ppl from LFM channel.

[wolfbane]

Not at all actually. Our guild always has enough online for MC/BWL/Whatever. I fail to see the point that people make that 40 people is hard to get. Proper recruitement will do this for you. Once you have made a name for yourself you will have people lining up to join you.
That's a pretty general statement. Our guild has no issues I know of with a bad rep, but we're still struggling for members. Hell, even some of the old raiding guilds in or about to enter Naxx have personell issues now.

Why? Probably because we're based on horde side, on a PvE server, that's stated as full.

Alliance side is a whole other story on our server though since it's swarming with 60's in comparison. Think it's somewhere in the 5 to 1 ratio when it comes to population. And then there's stuff like druids being worth their weight in gold since people prefer a foxy NE chick to a massive tauren it seems, but that could just be the case on our server.

But what I'm trying to say is just because your guild has the people needed don't mean it's easy to get them for everyone else.

[Naolin]

that make your guild among the minority of ppl who play the game. this reminds me of my mom telling me that all of her friends' kids make 80k+ a year because they're all doctors and lawyers, so what's so hard about making 80k+ a year the year after you graduate from school.

or a more wow-centric example. sure, making 1k gold from nothing in 4 days /played was easy for me. how many ppl do u think can pull that off? 40men is HARD to get.

***

Naolin: finding 19 other ppl off your friend list does not count as PUG. PUG is randomly picking up 19 ppl from LFM channel.

Mostly it starts with 5 core players and then LFG channel. (sometimes more friends ofcourse)

[kcma]

dood, u kick ass... ZG isn't hard, i've done most of that with mostly PUG before... but working with 39 ppl from PUG is a crazy thought that i'm not even curious to entertain because ultimately ppl just clashes. and how do u split the loot?

[Naolin]

MC isn't that hard. In front we make sure everyone knows and more important AGREES to the looting rules.

For ZG and AQ20 we use a kinda strange ruleset, in 1 run you can roll on :
1 Epic (or the enchant drop from Raptor man)
1 Blue
1 Quest item (Primal hakkari blah, or AQ20 item)
Ofcourse if something drops and no one needs it but some guy that already got an item they mostly get it (no use sharding)

for MC we use a priority system
At the start of the raid everyone states what item they want priority on (ex. I want an azuresong mageblade for my mage)
When the item drops the guys with priority roll.
If there is no one with priority you have the chance to not roll on your priority item in favor of the dropped item.
If there is no one that wants to do that then it's a random roll for all classes that can use it (I mean all so no *****ing about druids rolling on +dmg cloth etc, ofcourse no warriors rolling on +dmg cloth but you get the drift)

We use master looter so no Ninja's

The PuG got raggy down one time (mostly we don't get that far) although I wasn't there that time (cry)

We get a lot of people that are first timers or people that no longer run MC but still need loot from it.

[Baboon]

We've killed Nef last week and try to do it again tonight. I'm starting to think it's a pretty good idea to make 25 man raids in TBC. It's really hard to keep 40 motivated people who keep spending multiple hours in endless raid sessions.

I can't wait for TBC, and no more MC and BWL ;)

[Oatmealsmurf]

You did 5 core people then LFG and got a 40 man raid together with no disputes or issues? No way I'm seeing that. Sorry... I just flat out do not believe you. You would need "good" players to attempt that... and #1. most good players are in a guild that is running MC and therefore could not PuG it or they would get saved to the instance and be unable to run with their guild. #2. Most good players wouldn't even consider joining a PuG for MC.

It would take over an hour just to gather up 40 players to go. This sounds like it was more of a prearranged novelty sort of thing (if it happened at all)... like the all druid ony kill or the all Mage Rags kill, which obviously all the people didn't come from the same guild but got on the same page and organized the raid in advance.

[kcma]

what oatmeal said. i see no way how you can get 35 ppl to agree on the system you discribed :p unless you alreayd know those 35 ppl :)

[MoRRoW]

We've killed Nef last week and try to do it again tonight. I'm starting to think it's a pretty good idea to make 25 man raids in TBC. It's really hard to keep 40 motivated people who keep spending multiple hours in endless raid sessions.

I can't wait for TBC, and no more MC and BWL ;)

For Nef, I think the worse is not the battle itself, nor getting 40 people on. It's trying to keep people from falling asleep and motivated during the 15 minutes respawn time wait...

Cause then you have people go afk, come back after 20 minutes instead of 15, so you actually waste 20-25 minutes every attempts...

[mesonm]

Naolin: finding 19 other ppl off your friend list does not count as PUG. PUG is randomly picking up 19 ppl from LFM channel.

Actually, I prolly wouldn't necessarily trust a PUG to distribute loot fairly...Who gets the fiery cores? Who gets the core leather?

The leader controls all....

[MoRRoW]

what oatmeal said. i see no way how you can get 35 ppl to agree on the system you discribed :p unless you alreayd know those 35 ppl :)

I don't know about that. I'm not sure if what I'm about to say classified 100% to a PUG but anyway...

I agree that the loot system is not the best but:

I'm in a guild that just dropped Fankriss yesterday. They do MC on Friday nights in 2 and a half hours. I play hockey on Friday nights. The only thing I still want from MC is the pants from Rag. So I will never get these pants before the expansion for sure as I'm playing hockey until next June.

I'd love to get a PUG on Saturday or Sunday morning to go through MC and get a chance on my pants. Since it's a set item, I guess only druids without their pants can roll on them.

I'm sure that there is a lot of other people like me who can't do MC run with their guild that would like to have the opportunity to run a MC PUG. (either being no spots for their guild run or bad day for the raid)

We have to remember that PUG does not mean instant wipe now. A lot of people are in guilds that just one shot MC and don't have the opportunity to even get into MC. A lot of people have MC experience but just can't get into it because of the 1 per week limit.

I would definately not mind going in MC with a bunch of people that don't have the chance to go in their guild run.

I would not care about the loot rule, as any loot is better than no chance to get loot at all.

I went a few times in a ZG Pug, we needed on all bijoux/coins, and people that needed the drops rolled for it, there was no 1 loot limit per person. You need, you roll, you win you get. (if the raid leader think that it shouldn't go to you for obvious reason, then the 2nd one gets it.)

I see PUG MC the same way (KISS method) Keep it simple stupid ;) .
Need on core. On drops, set item = class roll if you need it, if noone needs, DE and roll for the shard.

Non-set item, ex. mageblade, well, range dps (mage, locks) roll for it. If none of them needs it, then other can roll if they wants it. (kinda like a guild mentality loot system)

I think that if you fix a limit to max loot possibility, people might leave just after they get their item.

The worse is the first few weeks to start this off.

Because, once you started doing this for a few weeks, people will know that there is a PUG MC on Saturday morning, and it'll almost become a sub-guild run, as I'm sure the same 15-20 players will come back over and over every week.

I'm sure you would see a lot of players alts also get into this if it's done outside raid hours, as a lot of people can'T raid with their alt but they'd like to get some gear.

BWL is a different story though.

[Naolin]

Yeah we have a lot of returning players, also some are tier 2 but we have some new 60's as well. It's fun meeting people like this, ofcourse not all runs are a success. We sometimes have ZG runs that get past the first 2 bosses then disband, all fun and games.

Just goes to show you don't need hardcore commitment to the "elite" endgame raiding :p

[ruinz]

Yeah we have a lot of returning players, also some are tier 2 but we have some new 60's as well. It's fun meeting people like this, ofcourse not all runs are a success. We sometimes have ZG runs that get past the first 2 bosses then disband, all fun and games.

Just goes to show you don't need hardcore commitment to the "elite" endgame raiding :p

I think it's hilarious that some people "just don't believe you". I suspect they've never played an MMO before. I mean, I never came across any raid in DAoC (for example) which wasn't basically a "PUG raid", and obviously plenty of those were successful.

The delusion is, I think, that you need all the players in a raid to be good players. The reality is, you don't. As I've said before I've been in the most successful raiding guild on a server, and I've seen how good/bad people are in an honest, non-invested way, and even in the most successful guild on the server, there were plenty of crap players, when it came down to it. Just a lot less than you might find randomly picking WoW players.

I think this delusion is pushed by people whose raiding guilds are moderately successful and who need to feel big and special. If they were in top guilds, they'd realize quickly that even guilds full of bad players eventually manage the same content as them, they just take longer about it.

I don't find it at all hard to believe you PUG ZG regularly. We have PUG ZG raids (which I hear have killed Hakkar before) fairly regularly on my server (and they often include people from raiding guilds, because ZG is 20-man, and it's easy to miss the "main" ZG raid and to not have enough people/interest for a secondary one). I've not seen PUG MC, but I can believe it. It's NOT a hard dungeon.

As for picking people from your friends list not counting as a PUG, well, that's a real cop-out, frankly. I suspect any time a PUG is successful, people who think things like that will find some excuse as to how it wasn't REALLY a PUG. Sheesh.

BWL will get PUG'd. If it doesn't, it's only because the gear is too crap in relation to easily-quested/5-man'd blues from BC.

It won't be used as a "levelling" dungeon, though, that's for sure.

[zkajan]

ruing, i agree to some degree, guilds will eventualy catch up and do the content that they don't do now (especialy once TBC makes you 7 lvls higher then boss mobs) but individual players that perform extraordinarely poorly won't be there with their guild. it only takes one person to screw things up BIGTIME on things like C'thun or Thaddius.

[djiss]

Molten Core will be farmed by 10man. It's not hard to do with 20 player to clear all the thrash mob, so @ lv70 just gather 9 other friend and farm the place.
So expect to see lot of T1 BoE (like those T0 boe, easier to bough them than farm them) and stuff in AH.

[Oatmealsmurf]

No friends list isn't a cop out... Friend's lists consist of people you basically PuGed with at one time and had a good experience with. And most of the time the only reason you don't have the people on your friends' list in your guild is because they are in a guild already.

Really, a guild is just a glorified friend's list for the most part... only you get given some of the names. I love people who try to project some sort of psychoanalysis onto a situation though. Word of advice... Matchbooks are best for holding matches not obtaining psychology degrees.

I just don't believe it... sorry. It's hard enough to find a decent UBRS PuG... And that's only a 10 man resetable instance.... vs. a 40 man instance that you'll be saved to for a week. It's not that the encounters are that difficult it's the logistics involved that make it unlikely. People spend hourse looking for on Priest that wants to run a 5 man. You think they are going to get 3-5 for MC on a whim? Druids are equally scarce if not moreso.

Then are you really going to give directions via chat? Or are you going to wait until you have 30+ people who all have voice chat? That's an even longer delay one way or another and you aren't coming close to a full clear if you are leading via Chat.

Loot presents a whole different set of complications people get in loot disputes in 5 man PuGs all the time and the loot isn't even that good. I can hear it already... Sorcorer's Dagger drops and every caster in the raid wants to roll on it ... It'd be even worse with Azuresong or SoD but you're not getting that far anyway so it's kinda immaterial. In PuG no one is going to want to hear the Leader determining whether those things should be reserved for ranged DPS casters...

Then are you going to require CTRaid? DeCursive?... any mods whatsoever? If you're truly picking up a group on the fly ... you can't afford to be that picky... I see split DPS, missed DeCursing/Dispelling/heals... bad pulls... and disputes over the proper tactics and loot disbursement all over the place. You guys are acting like all people know how to and definitely will follow directions. It has nothing to do with feeling important... getting through MC is no big whoop.

The problem is 5 man PuGs are hit and miss and you're acting like you can regularly pull together a successful 40 man PuG.

[MoRRoW]

...

I just don't believe it... sorry. It's hard enough to find a decent UBRS PuG... And that's only a 10 man resetable instance.... vs. a 40 man instance that you'll be saved to for a week. It's not that the encounters are that difficult it's the logistics involved that make it unlikely. People spend hourse looking for on Priest that wants to run a 5 man. You think they are going to get 3-5 for MC on a whim? Druids are equally scarce if not moreso.

Then are you really going to give directions via chat? Or are you going to wait until you have 30+ people who all have voice chat? That's an even longer delay one way or another and you aren't coming close to a full clear if you are leading via Chat.

Loot presents a whole different set of complications people get in loot disputes in 5 man PuGs all the time and the loot isn't even that good. I can hear it already... Sorcorer's Dagger drops and every caster in the raid wants to roll on it ... It'd be even worse with Azuresong or SoD but you're not getting that far anyway so it's kinda immaterial. In PuG no one is going to want to hear the Leader determining whether those things should be reserved for ranged DPS casters...

Then are you going to require CTRaid? DeCursive?... any mods whatsoever? If you're truly picking up a group on the fly ... you can't afford to be that picky... I see split DPS, missed DeCursing/Dispelling/heals... bad pulls... and disputes over the proper tactics and loot disbursement all over the place. You guys are acting like all people know how to and definitely will follow directions. It has nothing to do with feeling important... getting through MC is no big whoop.

The problem is 5 man PuGs are hit and miss and you're acting like you can regularly pull together a successful 40 man PuG.

I removed some portion of your text.. ;)

1-I think that if you give a priest a chance to get into a MC PUG where they can maybe get Tier 1 loot and epic Staff item and a 10 man run of UBRS for some blue loot, the choice is not too hard. So maybe getting 3-5 Priest (which may be alts of other experienced people's main) might not be too hard after all.

2-Vent or team speak exist for that reason. There is people out there that don't mind sharing their TS or vent server for this type of stuff.

3-Loot does NOT present a whole new set of complication. It's the people that causes it. A bit of common sense and clear indication AT THE BEGINNING should clarify things up. So yeah, the sorcerer's Dagger should go to either mage or lock first. There is good epic weapon drops in ZG also and I don't see anyone in the PUG whining.

4-For people level 60 that have at least a couple of tier 1 BOP pieces usually mean that they will have CT_raid assist, and probably decursive if it's relevant. I see Onyx Pugged regularly on my server and that's one aggro sensitive boss. I don't see how a pug that can kill onyxia can't go through MC. (At least up to domo). Especially if the group is not made of green gear people.

Some people think that PUG are just green gear retarded players. There's a lot of people out there that already started to get some gear, that just can't get into the Guild MC run. And for the strategy, if the raid leader is geared out in Tier 1/2, I would definately trust his strategy and follow what he tolds me, as he definately killed the MC bosses a shload of times in order to get his gear.

It's absolutely certain that if you start out your group with that attitude, it will definately not work... But I'm sure a PUG can take out MC if they don't spend 30 minutes crying over lucy's loot and /quit raid. And you'll usually get your answer within an hour ;)

For your last sentence, as I said, it will only take ONE successful MC PuG on your own server and redoing it week after week after that will be really easy with people writting on official forums, and discussion within the community.

Anyway, I'd love to see a MC PuG on my server as I would definately join it just to prove that it's doable ;)

Sure you can't get a 10 minutes set up rdy to go PuG for MC, but if you get some people, you can definately get some stuff down in there even if they are not all in the same guild...

[ruinz]

Oatmealsmurf - I'm sorry that your experience of MMOs is extremely limited, but that's not all there is.

You don't need voicechat to succeed. My guild has NEVER used voicechat for a raid, and they're well into Naxx. Lots of idiots have suggested not using voicechat makes that impossible, but it's simply not the case. Also, it's not exactly difficult to get the vast majority of the raid on TS or Vent. I played DAoC for years, you can get people to DL and setup these things easily.

I point out again that this has been done in other MMOs throughout the years without problems, why are you so certain it's impossible in WoW? You're inexperienced, frankly. I won't use the n-word, but seriously, you don't know what you're talking about.

Loot has been handled fairly and decently in PUG raids since MMOs began. Jeez, I've been on literally hundreds of DAoC PUG raids, and I didn't see any more "loot disputes" there than I do in guild which use council loot or the like. So long as the rules are clearly and repeatedly outlined at the beginning of the raid and beforehand, no-one can complain. They might not be 100% happy, but this isn't a guild and unless the raid leaders clearly ninja stuff or show favouritism, rather than respecting their rules, trouble will not ensue.

As for not believing in PUG ZG raids, all that makes you is a fool, because they go on every day, on many servers.

PUG raids are not necessarily "on the spot" things where a lot of people go "OMG LETS RAID MC!", they're often carefully planned and announced on the server boards some time before they happen by the raid leader.

You seem to be under the delusion that "PUG" = "Totally random unvetted people", but that's not what any normal person means when they say it. They mean non-guild group. It doesn't mean you have to pick up every drunk in the street any more than you do in a 5-man PUG. I suspect the problem with your 5-mans and UBRS groups may be precisely that, that you are picking up totally random wierdoes rather than y'know, trying to get people who might actually know what they're doing.

Morrow - Exactly. Ony is harder than most of MC, that's for certain.

[Naolin]

I personally didn't think it was possible either, untill a friend of mine decided he wanted to see raid instances seeing he didn't have a guild neither had the time and effort to join one we started pugging.

Ofcourse first few where disasters although we did get the first 2 ZG bosses on our first run. But word travels quickly and you get a lot of epixed out people just joining for fun with their friends they normally don't raid with, or people that miss that one piece of loot and decide to try their luck.

Now I see Ony Pug's every weekend and for all I know they get her down as well. You'd be suprised how well people play in face of epix even though they arn't hardcore Raiders.

as voice software.. lol.. really not needed at all, what do I need to tell them I can't use macro's or typing for CT_Raid helps a lot as well (and we order people to use it ;P)

So PUG on my friends! show those elite raiding guilds the phat lewt isn't only for them :grin: (kidding ofcourse)

[Oatmealsmurf]

Boy do I love people who make assumptions. LOL... You have no rational reasoning to conclude what my level of experience is with MMOs. Merely an assumption built on needing to discredit my point of view without any way of refuting what I've said. Your breed is nothing new on the internet. You might as well call me a noob... go on and fly your true colors. Go on and believe what you want if it makes you happy... I'm surely not going to run down my video game resume though so as to appear "qualified" in your eyes. That is so lame man, really.

It really just appears that we have a different POV and the crux of it is we differ on how we define a PuG. But no you couldn't let is stay there and accept the fact that there are different working definitions of the word. You have to be "uber leet all knowing MMO guru" who looks down on others that he doesn't know anything about. Just be mature for a minute and we can say "hey... we just have a different definition of PuG". So let's just settle on that. And agree to disagree ... I don't believe PuG's consist of a bunch of people who already know and play with eachother regularly.

Morever, your description of how an MC PuG would work is categorically NOT a PuG. If you are planning and coordinating the run in advance... it is by definition not a pick up group. Just like in sports... a Pick Up group/game consists of the players that are available at the time you are playing. And people play on a first come first served basis from whoever is there without planning. That's why it's called a pick up group. It's not that you take any drunk on the street... its' that in a PuG there is always a risk that you pick up the Drunk in the closet.

Under the circumstances you laid out I have no problem conceding that MC could be done... but again that is so not a PuG. Plus I never said word one about ZG being possible or impossible so stop making stuff up... And Ony is easier than most bosses in MC IMO... it's 3 trash pulls and an easy boss. I was truly shocked at how Easy Ony was... all you have to do is keep the tank healed and not pull aggro. Ony has been 5 manned.... all she requires is a few attempts to familiarize yourself with the three phases and patience.

[Valas Azuviir]

Settle down folks.. Official forums are that way ->
They don't mind tempers getting heated there, same cannot be said of this place. And, if you chaps keep it up, then I will lock this thread faster than you can say superfunkicalifragisexy 4 times in a row, without stuttering.

[kcma]

i dont see this getting heated... /shrug <3

they used to try doing MC pug on Tich all the time and it never worked. something always went wrong and there are always ninjas.

i think those who said it's not a problem ppl are, are completely correct. ppl ARE the problem and PUG consists of ppl who are problematic :)

[Havoc Jack]

I've been in a PuG MC run. Or at least I was a PuG member of said run.

One of our Naxx raiding guilds no longer does MC. Some of their members decided that their alts want MC gear. They don't have 40 men worth of agreement, and so they opened the doors to whomever would like to come.

I'd never been to MC. I raided once or twice in a PuG ZG, but that's it. My guild recently got enough people to do UBRS. Whoo. We made it to all but two or three bosses. And we didn't stop because of a raid wipe, we stopped because that aforementioned guild had to get ready for their BWL run shortly thereafter. Heck we probably could have finished it if their Onyxia raid hadn't run long just beforehand (yeah, hardcore raiders I guess.)

Loot was run by those guys, cores and such are distributed by them to gear up the members of the PuG raid. They even set up a dkp site. No drama looting, and not even excessive whining about damaged gear. Although I'm lead to believe that's because we didn't hit Ragnaros.

Still, it's hard to call it a true pug when half the guild is coordinated, and that warrior up there has dreadnaught spaulders and Thunderfury. Or rather both of those warriors. I know I acted like a pug; it being my first itme out I was healing very poorly. (Druid here.)

But something to do wiht the current topic. Anyone remember the phase lashers? Crazy plant things in Dire Maul: East, change colors and become immune to different schools of magic as you fight them? Has anyone ever come up with a good tactic for killing them? Oh yeah, just run them right over. The tank, hunter and rogue hardly care what it's resisting, and if it's resisting fire magic the mage switches to frostbolts for one fight. No big deal.

Over in the druid forums we've been talking over (from time to time) raiding as cats and moonkin. We keep saying that we want fights designed with a druid's versitility in mind, but as great as that sounds it's not so simple to pull off. I mean, let's say the fight needs an extra three tanks halfway through. Either you can have some druids shift, or you can keep them healing the warriors, who can pick up the adds if they're well geared. The latter tactic is easier, but requires a bit better gear. There are some guilds that need a warlock to tank the twin emperors, and there are some guilds who just do it with a warrior.

The point is, quite a bit of what seems complicated and difficult can be done with finesse, or with better gear and brute force. These raids might require everyone to be on the bounce and working together now, but it's possible come expansion that a bunch of 70's can waltz on through while being mostly drunk.

That, and there are some technical advantages to leveling past 60; no glancing blows, less spell resists, etc. The content will be easier simply because of that.

Oh, and if you're pugging a 7 day reset timer, it's not that hard. Simply join one a week, come wipe or win. Everyone's MC resets during maintenance.

But if you can get comporable gear five manning in the burning crusade, I'm all for that. My guild can manage 5 men.

As for me, I'm going to be racing to 70, quick as I can. I've got a rogue and a warlock to beat.

[kcma]

you really can't call that a PUG HJ :p

[mesonm]

A PUG is a random collection of toons coming together at approximately the same time to accomplish a goal....If you are forming the group over a week or so of advertising, you are not forming a PUG.

Getting 40 people together randomly will be tough...Getting 40 people together who are not of the same guild will be able to be accomplished, with a little planning...

Getting me to trust someone to lead such a raid if that person doesn't already have a good nonninja rep on the server will be a tall order...

[kcma]

so you agree with those of us that thinks a real PUG can't do MC/BWL :p

[djiss]

For me, there is Guild run and PuG run. If it's not organized by a guild with a majority of player from that guild, then it's a PuG. You took them from LFG channel, friend list, friend of friend...
By it's just my point of view.

[kcma]

friends and friends of friends really doesnt count as PUG :)

[Havoc Jack]

you really can't call that a PUG HJ :p

The group had a decent organizational core, but look at the role I played. I got in by being at the right place at the right time. I didn't know crap about the instance, just enough to use HT rank 4, and innervate a priest. My gear was even pretty darn crappy; I had lost quite a bit of gear to an account hack earlier that month and was working with a back up set of gear. Greens! Whether or not the group was well organized, I can say (without a shred of pride) that I was a PuG member. I didn't wipe the raid.

We are spending quite a while arguing over what constitutes a PuG. I think we should concede it's possible to do with a minimum of planning, so long as you get a decent number of raiders who know what they're doing. Can this be achieved on a week by week basis? Hell if I know.

Here's another question, which I've heard asked. Does your guild still plan to raid on a weekly basis while leveling to 70? If you do, how quickly do you expect your holy priests, protection warriors and restoration druids to level? Or if they spec to damage trees, how far do you expect to get raiding?

[Gyoza]

1. people pug MC on my server... for a good while, there was a weekly pug to MC...first come, first serve. Wasnt great, but did moderately well.

2. I see BWL/MC becoming farming areas for mats much the way many guilds now farm Scholo for orbs, not for gear.

Remember, the crazy chants require nexus crystals, etc now, can u imagine the mats for the crazy lvl 70 chants?

Also, Elementium is now basically only used to make Thunderfury, which will suck compared to a lvl 70 blue (or had better suck in comparison)... but in future, what the hell are the pimp 70 plate/weapons going to be made out of? Certainly not dark iron, and i would bet not even arcanite... its gonna be elementium all the way.

3. Blizz is trying to get every 60 as geared as possible to make the run to 70 easier. One example is the ease of getting pvp rep now, especially AV. Epics are not hard to come by at all any more, not like they once were. With the addition of all the CC rep spells and AD rep gear (especially when you turn in the crusader stones for), there are uber epics available at every turn. These avenues make it easy for ANYONE to get epic gear that is comprable to dungeon gear without having to be in a raid guild, or hell, even a guild.

my honest advice is going to be to forget the costly runs, every guild should be farming like a MOFO, hoarding mats and/or making as much money as possible to help with powerlevelling profs and getting mounts.

[Dynatos]

2. I see BWL/MC becoming farming areas for mats much the way many guilds now farm Scholo for orbs, not for gear.

:shocked: :undecided:

[Gyoza]

:shocked: :undecided:

be quiet!!!! :wink:

[Nakh]

Every Saturday night at 10. The best guild on my server, pug MC, they normally have 5-10 (more like 5-6 most of the time) core member of this guild and they just take anyone who wanna go too. But they make thing clear, bindings or the eye goes to them. Up to today so far theyve got an eye of sulfuras (so they did killed rag) and they got a second Thunderfury.

It's not undoable at all

[kcma]

pug = pick up group.

so, weekly 'pug' really invalidate itself as a pug.

[Naolin]

pug = pick up group.

so, weekly 'pug' really invalidate itself as a pug.
can't call it a fixed group either though, as it's not fixed.

[kcma]

well, it's neither.

[Naolin]

well, it's neither.
so what is it then? ;p something yet to be named?

[Herald of Doom]

pug = pick up group.

so, weekly 'pug' really invalidate itself as a pug.
Not really. There's a weekly aq20 PUG on my realm, with 5 core people who then go LFM aq20. I'd say that counts as a pug, because every zg/aq20 pug i've been in so far had a few friends/guildmembers who started it and who knew the tactics. Unless you go very very strict in the pug definition as in "competely random people who get to together on a whim with no preparation at all" which in my experience hardly ever happens. The last 5 UBRS runs I went on were all that way, my alt and a friends alt rogue (I want BS tunic, he wants manual of evisc, and we both want eye of rend and dalrends) LFG friday evening at 8. Me, a friend, and 8 random people = pug in my eyes, but it still has been a weekly thing for over a month :)

HoD

[WatcherZero]

Pure comedy value we 20 manned Nef yesterday, if its 20 mannable at 60 its must be 10 mannable at 70.

[det]

Pure comedy value, we 40 manned Razorgore 5 weeks ago and couldn't kill him. If we cannot kill him..nobody in the world can ^^

SOME ppl can always achieve incredible things (witness MC in 1:07 hours). Doesn't mean the remaining 99% can do that ....

[MadVlad]

pug = pick up group.

so, weekly 'pug' really invalidate itself as a pug.

Clearly you don't play pick up soccer or basketball.

[kcma]

if my warrior started a group with my priest friend. then we're not a true PUG anymore is it? it's MY group with 3 pickups. which is not the same as a PUG of 5 <3

[CreslinHellscream]

Lol dont be so pedantic ? :P

[djiss]

Pick-up Group. That don't say WHERE you pick those player. It can be from friend list, friend on friend list, LFG channel, guild, total stranger who just passed by.

"PuG are only come from LFG channel" OMG, and what if someone in the group know those 2 you just invited? No more a PuG for those? But from the point of view of the leader, it's still a PuG cuz he RANDOMLY picked player who just whispered him. What if you take time to inspect the gear of the guy, talk to him to see if he know that or that part of the dungeon?
What if you pick random player you don't know in your own guild? You know, a ZG group is started and all those new comer in the guild want to go. If you don't even know them nor how they play, it can be considered as a PuG.

Let face it, everyone have his own definition of a PuG, so get over it.

[det]

Indeed....this thread turns into "define PuG" ....

[MoRRoW]

So what's the definition of a PuG? ;)

[MadVlad]

It came originally from team sports, where you may or may not have a team (organized or not) of players already, but you then need to "pick up" a few in order to have a full game.

IMO, a pick up group is any group where at least some of the players were gotten from a pool of players external to the core.

In practice, the term PUG is probably a fuzzy term, depending on how you are talking about it.

[kcma]

well, where do you draw the line then :p you have a regular 20 ppl you run ZG with. 8 of them cant make it today. so you pick up 4 guys from your buddy list and 2 more from their buddy list and last 2 from IF's LF2M spam.

still a PUG?

[rgirty]

If more than 50% are not regulars then you have a pug.

[djiss]

IMO, the answer for the original question is:
Yes, it's the end of MC as we know it, but not the end of MC at all.

[kcma]

i love how you definitivly defined PUG for all of us rgirty <3 how taught you how to do that?? :D

[rgirty]

Common sense.

[moopy]

Pretty much the same with MC....by the time we had Ragnaros down, 4 months passed...even if levelling in BC from 60-70 is as slow as levelling from 1-60 in the original game...in 4 months grinding you can whack out some nice levels...

Any thoughts?

Yes.. In the most recent BWL run, I died twice in a full clear (which took about three hours). One of those was on purpose (the nekkid pull of neffie to see what the powers were). It's about time that you stopped wiping in BWL, and started making a profit there :)

Sorry det, please don't hurt me, but it's true.

[kcma]

omg u just callled det a noob <3