AQ20: When are you ready for it?

[eXeel]

As AQ40 and 20 came at the same time, after BWL, I'm having a hard time placing it. BWL was after MC. AQ40 after BWL or alongside with, though harder in the end. Naxx is only for those with great gear and a serious attitude + money for flasks, potions etc.

But AQ20... Where do I place that?
We're a guild that enjoys UBRS and started ZG two weeks ago, killing off Venoxis on first try but lacked dps and healing + CT_RaidAssist for Jeklik, though our second trip to ZG had os downing Venox, Jeklik, Spider and Mandokir. With heavy dps, but 1-2 Priests, 1½ Druid and 2 Paladins.

When will it be appropriate to venture into AQ20? No, I'm not talking about getting one boss kill, but being able to take on at least 3-4 of them without everyone having 100+ Nature Resistance?
Help me get a picture of this. We're mostly people in blues, some has a couple epics or five. Crafted or gotten from trips with better guilds to 40 man raids.

Thanks in advance :)

[Mallstrop]

My first raid group killed the first 2 bosses while working on ZG, we didn't even try the other bosses but they do get a bit tougher after those 2.

I'd say you could try AQ20 at the same time you start ZG, but the snake, bat and spider of ZG are probably worth doing first.

[Dynatos]

No NR is needed for AQ20, aside for Hunters on Ayamiss.

I'd place the start of AQ20 on par with You could probably get away with trying right now. Kurinaxx isn't difficult, especially if you can already down Mandokir in ZG. Rajaxx is an endurance fight, but with a few attempts you should be able to down him. Buru is pretty easy once you know the kiting path and strategy to kill him. Moam is, well, Moam.

Ossirian is tricky; it might be a while before you can successfully down his Anubesiths and Ossi himself.

The only problem I see is your lack of healing. 2 Druids, 2 Paladins, and 2 Priest would be ok. 1 Priest, 1 Druid, and 2 Paladins may make learning AQ20 overly difficult.

[Hayek]

AQ20 isn't that demanding gearwise, except for the optional bosses (you want good dps for Ayamiss and Buru). The rest (Kurinaxx, Rajaxx , Moam and Ossirian, thats all there is) is mainly a tactics heavy fight. If your tactics are sound, you should be able to make the encounters work with gear from the top 5 man instances. Do bring the right classes however; if you are low on DPS, 3 locks for Moam is a good idea.

However, I wouldnt recommend doing AQ20 just yet. It seems your group is very fresh at raiding, and after Rajaxx AQ20 requires a much more drilled raid than ZG (excluding Jindo). You could try, but especially Ossi is really tricky, and you'll risk wiping on each of the 8 or so thrash mobs before him. If I were you, I'd first do some more ZG. Try to get the pather boss and Hakkar down. If you can do that, you have a reasonable chance of getting past Rajaxx (the second boss) if you dont mind a steep learning curve. Before that you'll probably get more frustration than you bargained for.

[Dynatos]

From what I've seen, Rajaxx is the execution wall for many folks in AQ20. 8 waves of mobs requires some good mana regeneration for the healers and some even better execution on part of the tanks. Who to tank, where to tank them, and how to hold aggro of the incoming waves is key.

[CreslinHellscream]

Rajaxx is very easy now they nurfed the hp of the adds and how much Damage rajaxx himself does.. All you need to do for it is heal the General guy through the waves and it really is very easy to keep everyone alive with his neat healing buff.

[AeroJonesy]

If I had to rank them, it would look like this:

UBRS < ZG < AQ20 < MC < BWL < AQ40 < Naxx

And I might be giving MC too much credit. As a previous poster mentioned, other than Ayamiss, you don't need any NR for AQ20.

[Twoflower]

you do not need nature resi at all in AQ 20. Tank ayamiss whit 2 mages who iceblock when poison stacks too much, problem solved.

speaking of it, you dont need nature resis in aq 40 either except for viscidus and 15 people at huhuran.

this entire nature resis craze is made up.

[Dynatos]

Yeah, but Huhu is a HUGE NR check for those 15 people. It's also very much needed on Viscidus ... for everyone. In addition, it helps on the trash mobs after Fankriss. Kinda like it helps to have FR on MC trash after Garr.

If you think about it, by your reasoning the FR craze was made up too. You can successfully clear all but Ragnaros in MC with noone but your tanks in decent FR. The same goes for BWL; you can clear all but Vael with only your tanks in FR.

[Wasabee]

I've been in the guild that you guys are. (2 in fact)

Get ZG Down. Get CT raid and Vent/TS. Talking out strategy is 20X better.

Once you get ZG down...alot of the mechanics of raiding will be learned. Plus you get loot! You also know who can hang with what roles...

Also you get 2 tries a week to "gear up".

When you get to AQ 20. It's a lot to learn. (Strategies, etc.) The second boss will make you poop you pants! Once you guys get him on Spank...then you'll be that much more prepared for the rest...

I'd even say start MC...just to get a cope of what "raiding" is all about.

[FodderCannoned]

You do give mc too much credit
UBRS < ZG < MC < AQ20 < BWL < AQ40 < Naxx

[Dobablo]

AQ doesn't need gear. It needs discipline. Focus on ZG, but if you must do AQ then Kuri could probably be mastered by a group that can do bat, snake, spider and bloodlord. He is the first tank-switching encounter for newer guilds, but having 3 tanks working together makes the fight trivial. Don't forget to pick up the Perfect Poison quest.
If you can't kill panther and tiger then Rajaxx will be a big stumbling block. Along with Hakkar he is one of the first "long" fight that guilds will encounter. The bosses after that require unusual set ups but with good raid organisation they are bestable with the exception of Ossirian. He is much tougher than Hakkar.
If you aren't going for the rep quest reward items then you'll find AQ20 has nothing you couldn't get from ZG.

[Jerkey]

I am currently in a guild that (with our very closely tied allied guild) do ZG on a regular basis. In ZG blues/ epics, we have been able to finish AQ20 together (yes, including Ossi) and get up to Rag in MC.

I can say with some confidence that if your guild is geared up in some good stuff from ZG, then you are ready to take on AQ20. The most important thing though, is good organisation. Make sure everyone has vent (no need for mics, they just need to listen) and that everyone is following the raid leaders instructions. Do this, and you'll be able to conquer most of AQ20 with ease.

[Twoflower]

If you aren't going for the rep quest reward items then you'll find AQ20 has nothing you couldn't get from ZG.


new spell levels ? nice shiny epics ? fun and games ? ;P

[swaldman]

You do give mc too much credit
UBRS < ZG < MC < AQ20 < BWL < AQ40 < Naxx


Depending on the circumstances and what is meant by "difficulty", I'd be tempted to swap ZG and MC in that list. At least for parts of them.

From my (so far imcomplete) views of both, ZG seems to be more about strategy and MC more about brute force.

[Fynious]

You do give mc too much credit
UBRS < ZG < MC < AQ20 < BWL < AQ40 < Naxx


Well, I have to agree and disagree with the notion that MC is easier then ZG and AQ20. It depends on which way you look at it. ZG and AQ20 can appear to be more difficult then MC because they are tatical fights and not just a burn them down before we die fights. Ossy, Moam, Panther Boss, Jindo all require you to actually think and do multiable roles to win. Most bosses in MC just require you to kill him before he kills you.

But MC is a 40 man instance and the mobs are tougher. Once you learn ZG and AQ20 well and your raid knows what they are doing you can do both ZG and AQ20 in 2 hours. MC is right behind that. I think they are pretty equal. BWL is the next step as it incorporates both elements, tough high HP/Damage mobs with tactical fights.

Then of course AQ40 and Naxx. With those two there is some over lap. As the end mobs in AQ40 are harder then the begining mobs with Naxx. So you could in theory move back and forth as you get stronger as a raiding guild.

Fyn

[Dynatos]

Most bosses in MC just require you to kill him before he kills you.

More specifically, MC is purely tank and spank. There is not really any strategy involved; the tanks tank, the healers heal, and the DPS burns down the MA's target.

[moopy]

I'd say that the Ossirian fight is more technically demanding than anything in MC, and probably BWL too. You need an agile, mobile team- it's much more akin to fighting bosses in AQ40 or Naxxramas. You need attentive, focussed people who have their stuff together. It's a lot trickier than ZG, and almost needs the situational awareness and camera spinning skills of a PvPer.

It's less a question of gear, more of player skill and attitude. If your raid group prefers to drool drunkenly about football on voice rather than shutting up and putting their game faces on, you're screwed. If your rogues don't mind getting nekkid, and your raid group can move as a cohesive unit, it's a pretty exciting fight.

Most of the rest of AQ20 is pretty trivial with the right strats. Buru takes some practise for some people. The Rajax fight is all about healer mana management and not letting the mobs go into evasion bugland.. Both are enormous fun.

Essentially, you need to have the attitude of a raid which could clear BWL, even if you don't yet have the gear or experience. If you can pwn ZG in a smooth and businesslike manner without too many wipes, if Kazzak doesn't scare you because you move as a team with murder on your collective mind, and if you don't mind a bit of a learning curve and some deaths in some slightly novel encounters, you're ready. You don't need pure purple people, but a bit of purple on the tanks increases your chances hugely.

Assume a partly MC-geared raid group who aren't scared to wipe and are after an espresso challenge, and you're good to go. However, you can do it without MC shinies if people are hungry enough.

Oh, and Dobablo is utterly wrong. The new ranks of spells from AQ20 will stand you in very good stead in places like Naxx. When you're facing Maexina and the like, being able to drop a renew 10 before the raid is webbed makes life a lot more pleasant. Also, some fights require very high dps indeed- timed fights against mobs with a lot of HP, so getting your mages, hunters etc. loaded with AQ20 books is a huge boost.

[Dallana]

The only difficulty we have with MC is getting enough people together in the right classes. A lot of the fights are similar and has been mentioned before tend to be very straightforward. However toward the tail end of ZG and for all of the AQ20 fights you're going to need strategy and co-ordination that isn't necessarily required for most of MC. Also the trash in AQ20 is a lot tougher to handle than ZG or MC. IMO wait until you have Thekal and Arlokk down (Tiger and Panther) the experience your raid gets on those two fights will stand you in good stead for AQ20.

[Mackrealtime]

MC < UBRS < ZG < AQ20 < BWL < AQ40 < Naxx

Atleast general drakkinsath requires some strategy.

[Mackrealtime]

And Yeah. Once you get past Rajaxx its all easymode till ossy. Atleast i think it is.

Buru u just kite him to the eggs, hes slow but hits hard, and blow the eggs up under him, and once he gets 20% his eggshell thingy will fall off. Then you burn all your cd"s to get him down quick, while fearing the bugs. If u dont get him down quick eneough. the poisen will stack up and wipe the raid

Moam is simple with 3 warlocks. Extremely hard with only 2.
Have all your priests and warlocks manadrain/burn him because if he gets full mana he will wipe the raid =P, and after like 3 mins or so. he will go into stone form. The warlocks need to banish the adds, which have a arcaneexplosion that hits for about 700. While in stoneform he will not attack or gain mana, and just burn him down. its simple. Make sure ur warlocks are on the adds tho, 2 of those things up at the same time will wipe the raid.

Ossy is just plain fun.

Hope that helps you guys in your aq20 exp. =)

[swaldman]

MC < UBRS < ZG < AQ20 < BWL < AQ40 < Naxx

Atleast general drakkinsath requires some strategy.

heh.
That's not quite fair - for most of the MC bosses you do at least have to figure out what they do...
Charging into the Sulphuron or Majordomo fights without *any* strategy isn't really going to help anybody very much.

I agree that MC is not very tactical. But I think there is a tendancy to exaggerate this from players who left MC behind a long time ago. This is probably partly because they know the tactics so well that they don't think about them, and partly because you can probably ignore much of it if you're in AQ & Naxx gear and just blast your way through... Life is harder for those of us in blues :-)

[Wasabee]

MC < UBRS < ZG < AQ20 < BWL < AQ40 < Naxx

Atleast general drakkinsath requires some strategy.

Okay WTF is that? Let me guess...your in an UBER guild that has MC on Farm.

Sheesh.

UBRS < ZG/ONY < MC/AQ20 < BWL < AQ40 < Naxx

That's how is should be.

You build your gear in UBRS and learn to kite, Chain fear, and tank.

ZG teaches you the basics of being in a Raid...Greenies and Blue Berries welcome.

ONY teaches you how to do a boss fight 40 man style...

MC teaches what it means to Raid...ZG and FR gear helps...3+hours of the same 40 people...

AQ20 teaches you to wake up and play in a Raid...Mixed gear okay...

BWL teaches that what you have learned to this point is of some use...Gear plays a good role here. (Ony Cloak?)

AQ40 teaches that what you've learned is Noob sauce...time to relearn some things...

Naxx, from what I have heard, is intensive. Sounds like it requires you to be more awake, focused, participating, and classes are of some use here.

[Houdy]

Even though ZG came first, I think AQ20 is easier, and has less in terms of rewards.
I'd say that if you can clear most of ZG without issue, than you are ready for AQ20...heck, i think you're ready now.

Then, look at this..
You will walk into MC with full epics and/or some high end blues from ZG and AQ20..and you will have a huge advantage over the content.
Meanwhile, my guild walked into MC a long time ago and we were in blues from Strat/Scholo...ahaaha.
we did it, but we didnt have all the strats like there are now and we didnt have the gear.
you have both at your disposal.
I'd say that you guys could go on a good ZG/AQ20/MC rotation and see a lot of results.
You could probably take the first 2 bosses down in MC rather easily.
greater fire prot pots are a snap to make..and those will help u tons.

Now the tricky part is:
how much time do you want to invest in gear that will be obsolete or near to that come expansion time?
you wont keep your AQ/ZG/Tier 1 stuffs come exp time.

However, the guild playing experience is worth it all.

[Hrungnir]

The real change in going to MC is the importance of AOE curses and the dispelling of them. Even most fights in ZG and AQ don't have much in the way of that, but it is essential to MC.

Overall I'd say that MC requires less skill than ZG/AQ20, but much better organization - fourty many is a big jump in terms of class requirements.

And really, aside from rag, non-tanks don't need resists in MC either. My guild got to Domo without anyone else really having more than 100 buffed, and domo isn't a resist fight either.

[Oatmealsmurf]

I would agree Rajaxx is the brick wall you have to break through in AQ20 because up to that point you haven't experience any boss fights like that before. I guess Panther comes closest ... but Rajaxx is longer and comes in waves. Very fun fight though but I don't think you can say it's as easy as ZG for two simple reasons. You can go into ZG with mixed blues and greens, and handle it once you get the tactics down. You're certainly going to get Venoxis down in the first few attempts and the bat and spider are pretty easy as well. When you get to Rajaxx however if your healers' mana pool and regen is not up to par then it'll get messy... so mixed blues and greens are out of the question. Also if you are in mixed blues and greens you likely are not friendly with CC yet and therefore won't get the healing buff from the general which would help a group in mixed blues and greens immensely.

If you have people starting to get their ZG pieces though it should be a bit easier... and if you get to Rajaxx and you just don't have enough to deal with it... farming Kurni for Books before going to ZG is always worth it.

[jensun]

The most important thing you will want if you do decide to go to AQ20 is to get as many members of your raid friendly with CC as you possibly can.

The Rajaxx fight is much more difficult without the buff from the Lieutenant General.

If people dont have the rep just descend on Silithus in a large group and wipe out every cultist you see for a few hours. Together with doing the various quests and a few trips to kill Kurinnax you should be fine.

[Leonavice]

I find that 20 man instances harder than MC/Ony. The reason being that in a 20 man instance, people who are not concentrating on the raid will wipe the raid or at least make a boss fight that much harder. It's harder to spot people who are goofing off in MC/Ony unless they are assigned a specific task (tanks, MA or Magmadar tranq shooting etc). An example is Ony. We can't really tell who's the person who don't listen and stand close to the whelps during Phase 3, unless we are intently looking in other places other than Ony herself. Lazy people tends to think in a 40man raid, 1 less dps or 1 less person decursing/dispelling, nobody could catch them and they are probably right.

In contrast, in a smaller raid, it's easier to spot such a person. An idiot who goes near Venoxis before snake form, or the bugger who afks in battle, these are easy to spot.

[irmo]

Well AQ20 the first boss is something most 20 man guilds can do after a few tries. The rest though rajaxx and ahead is bit harder and in my guild we waited until we took hakkar and jindo in ZG before trying on those. Now we're trying at ayamiss the hunter (lack of NR) and even Ossi is down.

We still haven't even set foot in MC/onyxia though due to lack of people in guild to field so many.

[Oatmealsmurf]

I don't see how anyone can say that ZG rewards are superior to AQ. Now true the book values are diminished because they will be trainable soon... but ZG gear will be obsolete extremely quickly now as well.

Prior to the level cap going up those books were HIGHLY coveted however and worth more than really any ZG piece by themselves. And when you take the high end pieces that drop and are comparable... take the Bloodcaller which is the absolute best dps caster weapon in ZG (and you have to be able to down Hakkar to get a shot at it). It pails in comparison to the DPS rep reward main hands from AQ... and if you get to exalted you will get the piece you need to turn in easy. It's also better than anything from MC. It also has the best caster offhand IMO in the talon of furious concentration... the leggings of the black blizzard and robes of the shifting sands are also better than T1 IMO.

Now I play a DPS caster on my main so I know what drops in that area the best but I know I've also seen some great hunter/dps warrior... Buru's skull frag for tanks... the necks that you get from Ossi's head are all awesome... there is an insane healing item that comes off Ossi (think it's a trink but don't remember).

Sorry but AQ is hands down better in terms of loot compared to ZG ... and aside from your core pieces (simply because AQ simply doesn't have many epic chest/head/leg/arm etc... stuff) it's better than MC as well.

After being through MC the only thing that I remotely care about in ZG is the ZHC... but there are still a good handful of items I want out of AQ... (not including my spell books which I have all of them).

[Leonavice]

Then again AQ20 is harder than ZG. Not surprising that the items at AQ20 are better to complement the difficulty.

[THOTHdha]

No NR is needed for AQ20, aside for Hunters on Ayamiss.

I'd place the start of AQ20 on par with You could probably get away with trying right now. Kurinaxx isn't difficult, especially if you can already down Mandokir in ZG. Rajaxx is an endurance fight, but with a few attempts you should be able to down him. Buru is pretty easy once you know the kiting path and strategy to kill him. Moam is, well, Moam.

Ossirian is tricky; it might be a while before you can successfully down his Anubesiths and Ossi himself.

As everyone has said, you can progress through AQ20 concurent to ZG. Only thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that it helps quite a lot to have your entire raid get thier CC rep to "friendly" for the second boss. He gives an amazing buff to everyone that way.

[Twoflower]

Well AQ20 the first boss is something most 20 man guilds can do after a few tries. The rest though rajaxx and ahead is bit harder and in my guild we waited until we took hakkar and jindo in ZG before trying on those. Now we're trying at ayamiss the hunter (lack of NR) and even Ossi is down.

We still haven't even set foot in MC/onyxia though due to lack of people in guild to field so many.

if you tank Ayamiss whit 2 mages who can iceblock when the stack gets too high, you dont need nature resi at all. ( well, it was when i last time killed her, hope they dont have patched this )

and any guild whit a decent 20 man raid who has AQ and ZG on farm can do ony whit 20 people. Ony is realy a old lady nowadays. Old as in stands no chance.