Primal Hakkari Idol - How do you handle them?

[Dynatos]

This question is mainly addressed to those who do not have a DKP system in place for their ZG runs.

How do you handle the Primal Hakkari Idol? Recall that this is the item Bloodlord Mandokir and Jin'do the Hexxer drop in order to apply the ZG enchant to you helmet or pants.

We kill these bosses every single time we do ZG (twice a week). Our current ZG/AQ20 system is just a rolling one. You're permitted to roll need on one epic and one blue per run, and contested items (Panther Hide Sack, epic Tiger or Raptor, Primal Hakkari Idols, Alchemy trinket pieces, Turtle poly book) are free rolls above and beyond regular blues/epics.

The Primal Hakkari Idols are, obviously, hottly contested. Our only requirements are that you must have a Tier 2 or better item to enchant, have Friendly or higher rep, and have a Doll. Thus, every ZG run sees 6-10 characters rolling on enchants.

I've had my Stormrage pants for 3 months, and a Deviate Growth Cap (arguably the best resto cap in the game) for about a month. I've been rolling on the Idol ever since I got my pants. In that time, I have seen approximately 20 Idols roll on by, without ever rolling high enough to get one for myself. I'd estimate half of the idols that have dropped in that 3 month span have gone to alts.

I've proposed a simple priority-based system. If you roll on an Idol during a run, and don't receive it, you are given a point. Those who have attained X amount of points, meaning they have attended 2X runs (i.e. if you have 10 points, you've probably been on 5 runs), can call "dibs" on the next Idol that drops. The Idol is given to the person who calls dibs (if more than one person calls dibs, it's given to the person with the highest point count ... if points are equal, they roll). Whoever receives the Idol has their point count reset to zero.

The problem I still see here is that alts who only raid ZG/AQ20/Onyxia will still potentially receive the Idol before a main who raids BWL, AQ40, and Naxx. But, with my inability to roll high (rolled 2,1,2,7 on the Idol, Panther Hide Sack, Idol, and Hakkar's Head respectfully, last night), I'd at least be able to get an enchant before TBC.

Thoughts?

[tagkc]

My question is why is the guild letting alts roll on it over mains? Never ever should an alt get an item such as this or an upgrade over a main, at least IMHO.

[Stigg]

For the guild I am in...

No alts get this item unless every main has it.

You must have tier 2 and doll. After that it is a simple roll to see who gets it.

If your mains do not have it, you need to talk it over with your officers. That really isnt fair.

It sounds like you are implementing a bid DKP system for the idols.

[Dynatos]

It sounds like you are implementing a bid DKP system for the idols.

Since I know that the "mains over alts" will never happen (most of the officers and raid leaders only run ZG on their alts), that's what I would like to see happen as a compromise.

The only things I want from ZG are:
1. Rep (7200/21000, shooting for Exalted within the next month)
2. Primal Hakkari Idol

Yet, I go week in and week out without ever rolling high enough for the Idol. If we have a sort of max-DKP system in place (ie, you spend all your "points" to buy the idol), at least I'd see one of the damn things, since I attend a good 80% of our ZG runs.

[bpaige]

Your getting the short end of the stick and if your officers are so shortssighted as to give their alts ZG enchants over raiding mains...I suggest you find a different raiding guild becuase they aren't going to get to far with that mentality.

My guild is in Naxx and doesn't use DKP at all in any instance, what we do with ZG:

Loot is full free rolls to whoever wants an item..this includes blues and epics, within reason :) ....the only items we have priority set to are usually items off Jindo for healers and Hakkar with the trinket and some of the weapons because they are arugable the best for certain classes at certain slots.

Basically we officer loot.....and this applies to Idols as well..Idols are really one of the only items we fully control...

Requirements:
1) You have to have your doll with you.
2) You have to have Tier2 or equivalent to put it on.
3) IF you meet those 2 requirements your name goes into a pool to be discussed in Officer Chat. Of the people in the "hat" we decide 3 people that will be allowed to roll for it. We take things into consideration like time in the guild, dedication, attendance to progression content. Things like that.

We then say in vent ok these people can roll and they roll and we loot the item.

I can't believe officers would enchant their alts before other mains...that is just plain ludicrous.

[tagkc]

Since I know that the "mains over alts" will never happen (most of the officers and raid leaders only run ZG on their alts), that's what I would like to see happen as a compromise.

With guild leadership like this, I would /gquit right there and find another guild. One of these days, the Grand Hat of Uberness is going to drop, you'll have the DKP for it and the leader will decide that it would be better going to his character/alt. You shouldn't hang around in a guild that is only going to let you have scraps from their alts.

[Dynatos]

With guild leadership like this, I would /gquit right there and find another guild. One of these days, the Grand Hat of Uberness is going to drop, you'll have the DKP for it and the leader will decide that it would be better going to his character/alt. You shouldn't hang around in a guild that is only going to let you have scraps from their alts.

We use a zero-sum DKP system in the 40-mans. The only exception to the rule currently in place for our 40-man DKP system is that we're trying to outfit our two MT's in some Dreadnaught before allowing others to bid on those pieces (and this was agreed upon by the vast majority of our raiders).

The only issue is that there is no system in place for 20-mans. We were deep into MC when ZG was released and had MC on farm and were progressing through BWL by the time AQ20 was released, so instituting a DKP system for 20-mans was kind of pointless.

One of our officers decided to start running one 20-man a week, which eventually ballooned to 4 a week, all under his loot system. When 1.10 was released, and the ZG enchant system changed, no new policy was made for the Idols ... they were just melded into the system already in place.

Now, the runs are mainly run at the discretion of the raid leader. If the raid leader feels that an item should go to a main rather than an alt, that's their prerogative. However, most of our raid leaders follow the "if you're on the run, are of Friendly rep, have a doll, and have a Tier 2 epic to enchant" ruleset, even though it's in their right as a raid leader to add the "mains over alts" rule.




Edit: I should also say that I'm not considered one of our progression raiders; I'm not on the 48-person progression short-list (we have a 40-man roster for progression content, to push through progression as fast as possible, with one of each class as priority standbys).

Though I regularly attend progression raids, since we have 2 Druids overseas who cannot reliably make weekday raids, I'm not considered one of the "elite 48" (my words).

Yes, the applications for the roster were reopened last month, I applied, and I didn't get rostered ... so I'm a tad bitter. But, I have a lot of friends in this alliance who are exceptionally loyal to it, so I refuse to leave. (Until TBC ;) )

[Grendo]

It appears that your ZG runs are hardly 'official' guild runs in that case, and more of an in-guild pickup or casual run. Thus guild need shouldnt and apparently doesnt take priority, so anyone bringing a toon to the raid has an equal part in getting said idols to drop.

Therefore, the system is working as intended, and you need to find yourself new dice ;) Tier2 will be replaced midway thru BC anyway, which means the enchant will be lost as well. Once 70, Things like ZG should be easy enough for 12 or less folks to get thru, and if idols are still worth it then, just have to find some friends.

That said, after months of waiting, I took my idol and enchanted my tier1 legs last week. Knowing ill be using my tier1 set exclusively until 66+ given the fact that there simply isnt enough time to fill out a DS set before TBC, I felt the several months use was worth the dkp spent.

[Dynatos]

Tier2 will be replaced midway thru BC anyway, which means the enchant will be lost as well. Once 70, Things like ZG should be easy enough for 12 or less folks to get thru, and if idols are still worth it then, just have to find some friends.

We can already 10-man Venoxis and Mandokir. I've been on 10-man runs to these two bosses more than once...

[Dutchgrass]

We give people with highest reputation priority. So those that did ZG a lot will generally have more reputation and get first dibs on the idols.
Mains > alts.

[kevagron]

Adding my 2cp here, any guild that has mains still needing those enchants and is giving them to alts over mains is very short-sighted because the main with that enchant will benefit the guild much more on their "normal" raiding runs. If you run ZG that often then surely theres no problem giving these to mains for a month or two until all mains have an enchant.

I second most of the other posters here, find another guild at your level and /gquit. I'm RL and on the officer chat channel when we decide which classes can bid on items and we would never allow an alt to roll on an item that a main in the guild needed.

We have lost a couple of people with 2 lvl 60 mains over this policy, but i'd rather lose a couple of greedy bastards who think their alt has priority over anyones main than give major upgrades to alts.

[Dutchgrass]

We have lost a couple of people with 2 lvl 60 mains over this policy, but i'd rather lose a couple of greedy bastards who think their alt has priority over anyones main than give major upgrades to alts.

Indeed, you're better off without people who would take items over mains, just so they can grind or wtfpwn in PvP better with their alt. That's in no way keeping the good of the guild and it's progression in mind.
It's just plain greed.

[wesje]

Ppl with the t2 head or legs

if noone, the person who is most likely to get it (highest in mc/bwl/aq/naxx dkp)

[Grendo]

We can already 10-man Venoxis and Mandokir. I've been on 10-man runs to these two bosses more than once...Then find 9 other mains and do it? Why complain on a random board? ;)

If it was an official guild run, or Zg was still used for your guilds progression in some way, id completely agree with you. But I view these for fun, or farming for one contested item runs to follow normal PuG rules, which alts have no bearing towards.

[Dynatos]

My proposal was shot down today. I got the response that:

"The rules still are that you need to have a purple hat/legs, a doll, and the required rep. IMO, if someone's alt fills those requirements, it indicates that it's a "raiding alt" and that person will get use out of the enchant. ZG is not exactly on the cutting edge of instance progression for us, so I personally see no problem in letting people's alts benefit from gearing up there."

They also state that, since TBC is just around the corner, there is no real point in implementing some sort of loot system right now. I agree with this mentality to some degree.

Another of their arguments is that most, if not all, of our progression raiders have what enchants they need from ZG. So, to single out either mains or progression raiders would be unfair to those alts who are geared enough for it to be of a benefit.

My argument here was that an enchant on my main's head/pants would benefit our progression runs a lot more than one on a progression person's alt; I may not have been selected as a progression raider, but I'm still rostered in 2/4 progression runs weekly because of the timezone difference for a couple of our Druids on the roster.

I'll stick it out until TBC, since I don't see myself finding another group of guilds that raids regularly on my server. At least I get into BWL weekly, and AQ40 and Naxx on occasion; so, I suppose I shouldn't complain too loudly.

When TBC comes, though, I expect to roll a Blood Elf Priest. All will change, then.

[Dynatos]

Then find 9 other mains and do it? Why complain on a random board? ;)

If it was an official guild run, or Zg was still used for your guilds progression in some way, id completely agree with you. But I view these for fun, or farming for one contested item runs to follow normal PuG rules, which alts have no bearing towards.

The issue is that a 9-man run to just Mandokir locks me out for that 3-day period, so I have no real option to join a full-clear for rep.

I don't see it as complaining; I was asking for advice from others who are in a guild in the same position as mine. Nor is the board entirely random, if you observe my post count. :wink:

[bhroam]

Dynatos, from what you have posted there it appears your guild doesn't appriciate you enough. I was in a guild (non-endgame) whose guild leader prefered getting hard to find items for his 3rd or 4th alt rather than one of our mains.

I understand your feelings about staying in your guild. I ended up staying in that guild for some time after I realized my standing there.

But as you said, you might as well stick around till TBC. Life on WoW will DRASTICALLY change. All the gear as we know it will be thrown out the window for gear at level 61 or 62. From what we've been seeing through the grapevine, MC/BWL epic's are going to be replaced with level 62 greens. Life will definitely be different.

Who knows... maybe the ZG enchant will be crap in 2 months.

[Cerberus]

That argumentation simply doesn't make sense, most of all this part:
"ZG is not exactly on the cutting edge of instance progression for us, so I personally see no problem in letting people's alts benefit from gearing up there." as far as Idols are concerned.

An alt will typically have a lot of upgrades available from the instance being done and in endgame raidguilds the idols will be the only reason to go to ZG whatsoever for mains. The ZG chant simply can't be covered in any other way. It shouldn't be concidered as "ZG gear".

My guild uses a system where mains have prio over alts/friendrank. The idols are handed out on a attendance/last loot ratio (seperate for each instance) and skips the person in turn if he doesn't have any items to enchant currently (we "request" the loot we want). We don't give out idols to alts if a main needs it, but then again that's really not a problem as it will usually be the only piece of loot a main will want there. A ZG enchant is VERY much an upgrade for a main and is important in terms of gearing up your raid. Most head/leg items won't even be an upgrade if you can't get the ZG chant.

It sounds to me like your guildleaders have become a bit greedy and ignorant tbh :/

(Dolls is a minor thing really, they go for somewhere around 10-30g and any class can get in there and cash in solo. )

[Dynatos]

(Dolls is a minor thing really, they go for somewhere around 10-30g and any class can get in there and cash in solo. )

Dolls are no problem. If we find one, it's given to someone of its class who does not yet have one; if everyone already has one in their possession or in their bank, it's mailed to a guild bank and given away to someone who needs it.

I have 2 (1 on me, 1 on an alt).

[Oatmealsmurf]

Yeah what most people said.... sounds like your officers have gotten greedy. If you have enough people you can just do alt ZG runs to get them geared up. But why would you take the enchant away from a main which will benefit the guild on new content runs in favor of an alt? Makes no sense for a "progression" guild.


Basically we officer loot.....and this applies to Idols as well..Idols are really one of the only items we fully control...

Requirements:
1) You have to have your doll with you.
2) You have to have Tier2 or equivalent to put it on.
3) IF you meet those 2 requirements your name goes into a pool to be discussed in Officer Chat. Of the people in the "hat" we decide 3 people that will be allowed to roll for it. We take things into consideration like time in the guild, dedication, attendance to progression content. Things like that.



I don't think the 3rd part of your system would sit right with me either. If it's a matter of you believing certain classes getting enchants first because they are more of a benefit than others (like warriors getting Ony's head first or DPS casters getting Hakkar's heart the way a lot of guilds do) or something like that then fine. But you can state that out in the open without retreating to officer chat. If you're just picking 3 people and it isn't based on any set system then you leave it open to too much bias an favoritism, whether intentional or unintentional. Better that anyone who meets your set of public requirements gets the chance to roll on it.

[LordXeper]

T2/Rank13/or equivilent (e.g. Crown of Destruction for hunters or Ancient corroded leggings). Must have doll ON him/her. No alts/friends/pugs (never happens anyway, we'd rather go with 15 then 15+5 pugs) are allowed to roll. Rest can roll.

[Bouncy]

I can see several reasons why mains should have dibs on the ZG enchants over alts. I'm sure someone else can list why alts should...


It is usually the mains (wanting idols) that make it possible to run alts through places like ZG and AQ20 in the first place.

Usually mains don't need reputation, they definitely don't need the drops in ZG if they have items from BWL on up. Why else are they there? To help alts out and get their idol. Fairness should work both ways. The alts get better gear through drops, the mains get to upgrade their gear through enchants.

Enchants are rare as the ZG ones are, should go on items not easily replaced. Mains with T2, T2.5 helms and shoulders won't get those as quickly replaced like an alt would with ZG-T1.

Someone with a main who already has both enchants shouldn't be greedy and get their alts those same enchants while someone else main is going without - that is just plain greed.