Paladins tanking ???

[dugnar]

Are paladins gonna get the chance to tank in bc or r they going to stay the backup raid healer???


Dugnar 60 pally jubie'thos

[Catandmouse]

they nerfed devine shield so badly that this idea of a pally tanking is long gone

[Gealach]

On the other hand paladins now have an AoE taunt-like ability.

In my experience the problem paladins had with tanking was inability to hold aggro, not inability to survive.

[runeful]

what have they done to my bubble? i find that a very useful tool when healin as if u pull agro u bubble and ya okay plz tell me that i am still immune to all attacts while bubbled

[Alairon]

Divine Shield is not used for tanking.. It's used in the event that you can aggro, as Pallies have very little ability to gain aggro - and none (Other than Blessing of Protection or Divine Shield) to drop it again.

[Morail]

With concecrate, spiritual attunement and righteous defense they are gonna make excellent tanks. Should be second only to a warrior but a good pala will tank better then a bad warrior.

@runeful it did not get nerfed directly but priests can dispell it now, dont see how that affects pve.

[Riavan]

If druids are getting a sunder in the fom of lacerate :P
Pally's will be third on the tank list.

[Morail]

Highly doubt it, and if its a full prot spec pala druids wont even come close. Its clear blizzard are compensating for the lack of BE warriors so they make them viable tanks where as a druid might not always be so good. High armor isnt everything.

[Pongle]

High armor isnt everything.

Ever looked at a decently equipped feral druids hp bar? :)


On topic: Paladins, stfu and BoK + heal me while I tank the boss kthx.

[Riavan]

Druids have Rage, taunt without a big cd, insta swipe, "sunder - lacerate", mini ms - mangle... we have huge armour as well as tons of stam. Oh yeah, we also have an aoe taunt. Did i mention we give parties +5% crit and ability to heal when they crit?

Pallys can heal themselves but cant keep the agro.

[Morail]

I find this interesting but you are forgetting that paladins have a full tree devoted to tanking whereas feral druids do not.

Paladins have AOE snap aggro forced for 3 seconds> druid.
Shield: holy shield threat generating + 30 block, Avengers shield AOE shield holy dmg. Superior AOE then a bear.
Spiritual attunement basicly is rage it gives you mana when healed. And we have reckoning, consec, BoS, righteouss fury and whatnot.

And 50% dmg reduction when dropped below 20% health. And lets not forget that holy dmg ignores armor so a paladin might even tank better then a warrior on certain uber heavy armored targets, druids are not even comparable.

[Riavan]

1. Pretty much all the feral tree helps with tanking, ie talents that do diffrent things for each form.
2.Snap Aoe isn't a good thing in alot of fights 40 yards will just skrew up other tanks in raids. Taunt is on a smaller Cd btw also 'snap aggro' and with bosses/raid mobs hitting us instant spam cleave keeps aggro of up to 3 mobs.
3.Druids have lacerate... ie... sunder, this is better aggro holding no matter what you say, which mangle makes stronger.
4. Chances are we'll have as much hp as you and 2x the armour, 50% reduc under 20% will be nothing.
5. Paladin holy damage is laughable.

[Great Wizard]

I have a 60 pally alt and I tanked all instances up to UBRS without any problem even before the BC. The Righteous fury buff + consecration is all the aggro holding I need. After BC it will be even better. In addition to that I might add that redoubt + holy shield = 60% block chance and lots of holy damage on each block, and the damage reduction from a block + sanctuary is much higher then the extra armour druids have.

But druids at the moment have the advantage of a taunt. Anyway Pallies and druids are both good for tanking as long as the player is good, the argument is stupid.

-Great Wizard

[Morail]

Don't know why I bother your reply was to pathetic but I'll humour me.

1. Druids got a few talents that help a BIT with tanking, only 1 that directly increases threat.
2. Since when did druids get taunt or snap aggro? I rather have AOE then no taunt at all, its cruical to tanking druids fail right there. And captain amazing + concecrate > Cleave.
3. How would you know you don't have any numbers on lacerates aggro yet. Again I bet ya the 41 pt PROTECTION talent generates more threat.
4. But you don't have 60% block or good defense or as good hit rating and with recking you swing alot slower.
5. You won't say that when you get holy shock crit for 3k through your 15 gazillion armor rating.

Looking at the new talents it seems druid have to step down to nr 3 on the tank list. Now go transform to a tree and hide somewhere.

[GlowSticky]

A tanking Paladin is more viable now than in the Live version of WoW. Does that mean it will be easier? Maybe so, but Paladins accustomed to healing/cleansing will stick with what they know.

Up-and-coming Paladins will now have the opportunity to fill the role of tanker in the event that nobody manages to find Warrior. The way I see it, the more Paladins in the group the better. Strong heals and backup tanking abilities are gold stars in my book.

[Gealach]

Paladins who stick to a single mode of play in raids are inherently less useful. Our guild has gone out of their way to find those paladins who can adapt their play instantly to the needs of the situation regardless of spec.

We've had a paladin tank Onyxia tolerably well. It was necessary to slow down our DPS a bit tho. I expect that in the expansion skilled paladins with the right set of abilities will be able to tank any 5-10 person instance without much difficulty.

I'm glad they're buffing pally tanking abilities, since there won't be much undead content in BC.

[Suave]

2. Since when did druids get taunt or snap aggro? I rather have AOE then no taunt at all, its cruical to tanking druids fail right there.

Looking at the new talents it seems druid have to step down to nr 3 on the tank list.

You, sir, clearly don't know what you're talking about. Druids have both single-target and aoe taunt.
It seems you are comparing the tanking abilities of 2 classes while only looking at the actual abilities of one of them.

[drachedeeis]

Go Go pissing match.

Feral druid and Prot pallies can both tank currently, come expanision both will tank even better. The interesting thing is they will do it in 2 totally ways and both ways will be effective.

[Valas Azuviir]

On topic: Paladins, stfu and BoK + heal me while I tank the boss kthx.

And off topic: Watch the language, lest we give you a cool down period. This isn't the official forums and this isn't WoW general chat, because we will enforce the rules we've got set up here.

Don't know why I bother your reply was to pathetic but I'll humour me.

Now go transform to a tree and hide somewhere.

And something similar applies to you as well. No personal attacks allowed here. It's quite possible to have a debate and not resort to personal attacks, if you feel you cannot do so, then skip the discussion.

And because both of you gentlemen seem to have forgotten: the rules (http://forums.worldofwar.net/rules/) we have here. Read them, learn them, love them and live them. Because, if you don't, then you get to hang out at the official forums for a while, as opposed to here. Then again, you'd probably feel right at home there by the looks of things. :annoyed:

[woitec]

erm go roll a warrior and tank? end discusion :D

[Gealach]

Meh, ability to tank is based on skill, spec, and gear more than whether you're a druid or paladin.

The problem for druids has largely been poor itemization. For pallies its lack of good aggro holding abilities. For warriors its lack of skill (so many are soooo bad...).

If the player is good I'm not so concerned about which of the 3 is tanking, since I can adjust to any. Without better itemization a druid tank needs a really good healer to keep them up tho.

[Riavan]

Since we each will probably have a t4 tanking set, I kinda dont think there will be itemization problems.

BTW we've always had a snap on aggro ability...
Swipe can actually generate more aggro than a warrior, statistics are stickied on the druid forums... 3k holy shock? doubtful if your specing into proc.

[Gorny]

Don't know why I bother your reply was to pathetic but I'll humour me.




Oh yeah you're a smart one.

Warning for abusive language.

[Morail]

I was tired. Anyway I will enjoy the ocassional tanking but I will spec CS to smash faces its more fun. And druids are not in any position to call anyones dmg laughable tbh. The days of 5 min druid pala fights will be over in the expansion when burst dmg is back on the table for us. Just accept that your a utility class with a bit of everything exceeling at nothing.

No more worrying about having a bad warrior in party I can always step in myself in that role :)

[BearPaladin]

I read a post in the WoW boards that the new pallie taunt will work with DS on the beta BC servers - in other words the mobs will still keep beating on the pallie even if he's really immune (for a while).

Having said that, Bear Druids keep getting stronger patch by patch. Even the recent nerf to Mangle only hit Cat form, nobody's complaining about the Bear mangle.

[Krald]

Well, druids may get more aggro on single target, or maybe even three, they may get more armour and HP, but paladins will still have decent block/parry which druids have none of, plus they'll be defence-skill-based like warriors. Aggro-wise, I fully expect druids to be somewhat superior on single target (albiet barely) but paladins to excell on AoE tanking. Redoubt procs more often the more targets are hitting upon you, same for reckoning. Also consecration has no target limit, it can hit as many targets as are in its range, not limited to just three.

Irregardless, I fully expect both paladin and druid tanking to generally be at least somewhat situational, you'll probably find a prot warrior as main tank generally with maybe some feral druids and prot paladins taking secondary tank roles, swapping to main tank if one of their skills is needed for an encounter (like poly immunity, or AoE tanking).

I don't think even beta-people know about this yet though with the 67 cap which I heard was up last.

Also, prot-paladin-tanks would often help being in MT-group as they can get an aura for 5% less spell damage of one school taken which should stack with even the prot warrior def stance talent bonus I imagine. As well as being a good tank-buffer with sanctuary/kings. So even if not main-tanking, it's good to have a secondary one specced that about.

[Xyr]

Ever looked at a decently equipped feral druids hp bar? :)


On topic: Paladins, stfu and BoK + heal me while I tank the boss kthx.

my thoughts exactly, pallies accept your place! you can't dps either! heal meh!

[Grendo]

I love all these non-beta people fighting over their own class, but have no idea what theyre talking about. ;)

So far, the new pally tanking talents have gone very well for the class, had a pally tank for the majority of runs yesterday (60-62 group level) and they did amazingly well. Its like being level 40 all over again. The new pally taunt is great. Didnt copy my paladin over so only have second hand accounts to chime in with.

[Gealach]

The problem with druids relying on high HPs instead of AC and other damage mitigation is simply that they are making life hellish for the healer who has to keep up with the sheer number of hit points needing to be healed. The bear form HP multiplier doesn't also multiply the effect of incoming heals.

That is why itemization for ferals needs help, they need more AC, even with the bear form multiplier. I've seen good druids tank, and losing aggro was never really a problem for them. However, the healer had better have a deep mana pool and no one else had better get hurt.

That's excellent news Grendo. =) It will be nice to have more tanks to go around. Hopefully there is some high AC leather out there as well.

[Nemz0r]

I definitely think the itemisation will be there. There is leatherworking patterns in Zangormarsh (sp?), which although I cannot remember the exact details, I believe there were some craftable leather boots with around 290 Armour, a heap of stam and around +30 Defence rating.

These were blue level 70 req. if I remember correct. So it only leads me to believe (hope) there will be a continuation of this at end game itemisation (Tier4 already confirmed however perhaps others before that).

Personally I haven't been able to copy my paladin over to try tanking. However we had a paladin tank the Hellfire instances very successfully. Aggro did not seem to be a problem even with me chucking out 4K Fireballs in the last 20%. I do believe a paladin can tank just as well as a warrior, and with the right gear be friendly to the healer aswell.

The things which I believe warriors have over paladins is their utility. They have Sunder Armour, Battle Shout, Demoralising Shout, Thunderclap etc.

I do however think in general terms; warriors, paladins and druids should not be viewed competitively -- as they will in the end all be viable, perhaps some more than others in certain encounters, but sometimes, all at the same time in multi-mob situations.

[inkmva]

An upside to having a pala tank with NO sunder armor going on is that rogues can finally use expose armor which, if improved, is better then sunder for raid melee dps.

Holy damage will be really spewing out off the pala in tbc as far as I can tell on by looking at talents and spells alone and with imp fury that's really going to generate some serious threat ;).

The +mana when healed really has a beutiful synergi for a pala tank. It'll allow them to keep dishing out that holy damage like a nutter.

I'm not going to touch the druid vs pala tank issue, but I do remember seeing a blue post back in the day stating that druids where supposed to tank better then palas. That was then and this is now, but just saying.

Doesnt matter much though. A prot/holy spec pala will be very viable for raids both as offtanks, possibly tanks in the smaller runs, imba buffs, decent healers (Especially with some nice gear for the task) and what not.

I'm so looking forward to bringing palas to our raids. I just love the little captain america buggers.

[Morollan]

An upside to having a pala tank with NO sunder armor going on is that rogues can finally use expose armor which, if improved, is better then sunder for raid melee dps. Surely the same applies to druids?

[BearPaladin]

Surely the same applies to druids?

How does Bearie fire compare against Sunder armor/Expose armor? Does it stack?

[Morollan]

How does Bearie fire compare against Sunder armor/Expose armor? Does it stack? Highest current rank of Bearie Fire (like it!) is -505 armour. Highest current rank of Expose Armour is -1700 armour. Highest current rank of Sunder is (450, stacking 5 times =) 2250. I have no idea if the Bearie Fire stacks with EA but, even if it does, it still doesn't match up to Sunder. IIRC the problem with EA and Sunder was that if EA went in first there wasn't enough armour left to Sunder. This shouldn't be a problem with Bearie Fire.

[Suave]

Baerie fire stacks with both of them.

[TheBlackestDrake]

Feral druid versus Paladin tanking argument.


CRIPPLE FIGHT!

In my (relevent) experience, Feral druids are better tanks then pallies, for whatever reason. Maybe I've just never encountered one of those wierd ducks, a 'competent pally.'

In any case warrior is the only one I'll consider grouping with without a Renew Druid or second Priest to keep me alive (and visa versa) when the tank fails to hold aggro.

[Grendo]

Feral druid versus Paladin tanking argument.


CRIPPLE FIGHT!

In my (relevent) experience, Feral druids are better tanks then pallies, for whatever reason. Maybe I've just never encountered one of those wierd ducks, a 'competent pally.'

In any case warrior is the only one I'll consider grouping with without a Renew Druid or second Priest to keep me alive (and visa versa) when the tank fails to hold aggro.Surely you realized you were in the beta forum, and this discussion has to do with TBC changes, and less about live, and you have some understanding and/or experience with beta.

Surely?

....

[Telakil]

Sure, the paladin and Bear are both quite good at tanking if played right.

But seriously, leave the tanking to the warriors.

We have Parry, We have Block, We have Massive armor, We have massive health.

We are the go-to guys of being a meat shield.

Paladins and Bears make good OT's though.

[Suave]

Sure, the paladin and Bear are both quite good at tanking if played right.

But seriously, leave the tanking to the warriors.

We have Parry, We have Block, We have Massive armor, We have massive health.

We are the go-to guys of being a meat shield.

Paladins and Bears make good OT's though.

Bears have more massive armor and more massive health. Oh, and more threat.
They tank differently, not worse.

[Morail]

Bears are omnivorous creatures, their favourite is blue bars.

[dexgen]

Don't know why I bother your reply was to pathetic but I'll humour me.
2. Since when did druids get taunt or snap aggro? I rather have AOE then no taunt at all, its cruical to tanking druids fail right there. And captain amazing + concecrate > Cleave.


Stopped reading right there. This guy definitely hasn't seen a feral druid before.

[spikes]

http://files.filefront.com/Daniil___TBC_Tankavi/;6099469;;/fileinfo.html

tbc paladin tankage, you be the judge

[Aartanis]

Pallys can heal themselves but cant keep the agro.

The way WoW is now...sure. In the expansion pack, druids wont even be considered.

[Bobvonroy]

I think you guys have missed one of the perks of the Paladin taunt....it has a decent range.