Ninja's and the new LFG

[Jamoro]

I think that there is a good and bad point to the new LFG

good: No spaming chat, less wait for instances/quest and generally easier way to form groups

Bad: Easy ways for ninja's to form and make groups. This will not be a peoblem if maybe blizzard will black list certin players that are known to ninja. For example if someone joins your goup and their name is in black this will mean their a known ninja bewear. In which i belive this will be the way to go, if you get more then 5 valid complaints and the people can prove you ninjaed them the person should be black listed for 2 weeks. In that time if they are cought acting like ninga again the sentence will be moved up to a month and so on...If the player serves his sentence and does not ninja for the 2 weeks he was black listed, he will regain his normal color. However for another 2 weeks he will be on probation, any act of ninja in the 2 week probation will result in a 1 month black list. If people get black listed more then 3 times in a year, I belive they should then be banned buecase they have shown they cannot play fairly.

The bad point has my suggestion in it for how to deal with people who are known ninja's. Please tell me what you think.

[rgirty]

Masterloot on bosses FTW. This eliminates everyone from being a ninja except for the ML. You will know he is a ninja or no on the first boss.

[mesonm]

The bad point has my suggestion in it for how to deal with people who are known ninja's. Please tell me what you think.

I don't think it will work...What does '5 valid complaints" mean? To whom? You want someone else to police whether you should have clicked 'need' on that robe? You want 5 guildies from a different guild to determine your future use of the tool?

Masterloot does work....

[Morollan]

if you get more then 5 valid complaints and the people can prove you ninjaed them the person should be black listed for 2 weeks. In that time if they are cought acting like ninga again the sentence will be moved up to a month and so on...If the player serves his sentence and does not ninja for the 2 weeks he was black listed, he will regain his normal color. However for another 2 weeks he will be on probation, any act of ninja in the 2 week probation will result in a 1 month black list. If people get black listed more then 3 times in a year, I belive they should then be banned buecase they have shown they cannot play fairly. Don't think your suggestion is viable and, even if it was, I'd want a damn sight less than 5 complaints before he was blacklisted and a much longer period in which he cannot ninja again and a much longer probation.

[Stigg]

Ninja-ing is not illegal by Blizzard. Tehrefore they will not take any actions to prevent this....and there is no possible way they are going to take the time to see if the complaints are valid. It would be a huge downfall. If you are getting ganked and a player that could have helped you passed by without helping....there is 5 compliants right there.

Many realms have official Ninja lists on the official forums. Checkthose out, place your problems....or quite complaining and do guild runs. If something gets ninja'd boot them from the guild.

[Nyuujiirando]

What in azeroth is Ninja-ing??

[Farq]

Being a ninja is when somebody takes an item without giving others the opportunity to roll on it when they might need it.
Classic example: Most groups when doing instance runs do not have Master Looter activated (this is due to BoE greens dropping and not wanting to have to individually roll every time). Most groups have an agreement that if something drops that is Bind on Pickup (so once you have looted you cannot trade to another character) everybody is to Pass on that item instead of Needing or Greeding it. After the fight, everyone who will use the item can roll need on it and the highest roll wins. If nobody needs it, then people roll for a greed and then either loot the item or arrange for somebody in the group to disenchant it. A ninja is somebody who will see an item drop, wait till everybody else has Passed on the item and then roll Greed or Need. As they are the only one that "rolled" when it dropped, they win the item and you cannot do anything about it. It is not fair, but its not against the rules of the game unfortunately, its just very unethical especially when its like a Warrior rolling on a staff that does stats like Intel and Spirit for a caster or rolling on a cloth item they will never use.

I wish that Blizzard could do something about people that act like that, but as you have the option to Master Loot (Blizzards original answer to the issue), if you choose not to, and somebody ninja's something, all I can say is bad luck, make it known to your guild for future reference and possibly report them to their own guild officers who may wish to take action.

[Orbstu]

Being a ninja is when somebody takes an item without giving others the opportunity to roll on it when they might need it.
Classic example: Most groups when doing instance runs do not have Master Looter activated (this is due to BoE greens dropping and not wanting to have to individually roll every time). Most groups have an agreement that if something drops that is Bind on Pickup (so once you have looted you cannot trade to another character) everybody is to Pass on that item instead of Needing or Greeding it. After the fight, everyone who will use the item can roll need on it and the highest roll wins. If nobody needs it, then people roll for a greed and then either loot the item or arrange for somebody in the group to disenchant it. A ninja is somebody who will see an item drop, wait till everybody else has Passed on the item and then roll Greed or Need. As they are the only one that "rolled" when it dropped, they win the item and you cannot do anything about it. It is not fair, but its not against the rules of the game unfortunately, its just very unethical especially when its like a Warrior rolling on a staff that does stats like Intel and Spirit for a caster or rolling on a cloth item they will never use.

I wish that Blizzard could do something about people that act like that, but as you have the option to Master Loot (Blizzards original answer to the issue), if you choose not to, and somebody ninja's something, all I can say is bad luck, make it known to your guild for future reference and possibly report them to their own guild officers who may wish to take action.


I have never been in a PUG where it has worked that way and I didn't know that was what a ninja is. If I am in a group and a BOP that is no use to me drops I pass it, if the next 3 also pass I would just assume that everyone was ok for the last person to have it.

[Stigg]

I have never been in a PUG where it has worked that way and I didn't know that was what a ninja is. If I am in a group and a BOP that is no use to me drops I pass it, if the next 3 also pass I would just assume that everyone was ok for the last person to have it.

BOPS should be DE'ed if they cant be used.....taking it because everybody else passed on it is questionable to some groups...unless it is clear they dont need it. i.e. If i was to run you through WC on my 60 and I passed....its clearly because it is of absolutly no use to me.

DE BOP's FTW!

[mesonm]

Being a ninja is when somebody takes an item without giving others the opportunity to roll on it when they might need it.

This is a classic example of why the system would fail...I'm not sure I define ninja the same way...

If the rule in the raid is 'roll need if you can equip, greed otherwise' and the last person decides they want it for DE and rolls need, while the others rolled greed....the last person is a ninja...IMO.

But, under your definition, they are not.

[mesonm]

BOPS should be DE'ed if they cant be used.....

/disagree

Many BOP's are more valuable as vendor items...

Basically, the in-game roller is there for a reason...use it...If you are in a guild run, change the rules....

Outside a guild run, if someone passes, it tells me that they will be satisfied with whatever outcome happens. I don't advocate violation of the loot policy set forth at the beginning of a raid...but, buyer beware, so to speak...heh

[Gyoza]

the classic way accross all realms has been to pass on bop's.

every pug run I do, I verify rules before we start to be sure everyone is clear.

but ninja's are reason #290549257-7503789703874305908-754057928-39805834 why I dont do pug's.... ever.

[Farq]

mesonm, why dont you read and quote my whole post next time. What I was saying is that people taking an item before everyone has a chance to roll is being a ninja. If you are in a group and you make it very clear to the group that you are to pass on all BoP items, and then they go and roll need or greed AFTER everyone has already passed, that is being a ninja plain and simple. If at the start of the run you just say you will roll when it drops then I dont have a problem with it. People usually make the agreement to pass on all BoP items because sometimes if you are still in combat, if somebody accidentally loots a boss, actually stopping your combat to try and inspect your character to ensure you need the item can end up wiping the group. Also, having any loot windows popping up mid-battle can get in the way and also make it difficult for you to finish what you are killing at the time.
And I dont know what sort of groups you roll in, but "need if you can equip"?? So if I take my warrior I can just roll need on every item that drops then? Also roll need on every weapon that drops? Cause I can equip them all but it does not always mean I have any use for it.

[kubull]

Thats the Point Jamoro was putting across, Master looter does work if you know who they are, but the new system of LFG will not give you that option, you may very well give the ML to the ninja, the black listing will give other players the heads up on the ones that aren't worthy of joining the group or even becoming ML.

But like some of ya said, the 5 valid complaints, I would think it hard for Blizzard to know whats the truth to just a nut not liking a certain individual, the evidence would have to be clear and not just speculation,("He Said, She said") as the nature of ninjuring in some cases are quite hard to prove as stated in previous posts.

For a guild to have a ninja and boot him out as my guild had expreinced, retribution is so sweet, after booting the fekker we each took turns to see where he (Aquaboey) went guild wise and found out the guild leader and dobbed him in, so far he's guildless and has been booted from every one he's applied for! what a twat! :thumbsup:

[Lord Feyrbrand]

So far I've had only good experiences with rolling everyone rolled greed for items no one needed or someone asked ahead of time for it and we all agreed I also just kinda pass on things like Mail or Heavy weapons (me being a mage) and everyone understood the two times I rolled need when i well needed the item it all comes down to communication and good people

[Icekiss]

Most groups have an agreement that if something drops that is Bind on Pickup (so once you have looted you cannot trade to another character) everybody is to Pass on that item instead of Needing or Greeding it. After the fight, everyone who will use the item can roll need on it and the highest roll wins. If nobody needs it, then people roll for a greed and then either loot the item or arrange for somebody in the group to disenchant it.

I don't really understand this method. As I see it, it's a perfect water for a ninja, it's actually like inviting a ninja to roll. I'm just curious why not roll there and then? Usually when you see an item you should know right away if you need it or no.

In our groups we always spesify it that if we got an enchanter for example, and if noone needs the BoP we just let our enchanter have it. Anything else is either need or greed. Fair and simple I think.

In my understanding ninja was a person who would roll need on an item he wouldn't need, therefore making a chanse for an actual needer to get it much slimmer, or a person who would roll need when everyone was supposed to roll greed, him including (refferring to a BoE item that no one really needs except for selling on AH).

[rgirty]

I don't understand the passing... you get plenty of time to talk over and decide need or greed. If you need, just simply say "i'm going to need, if thats alright" I have never seen anyone complain about this. As others will also say, i'm going to need as well then the best roll wins.

My realm must just be full of honest people, i've never seen anyone ninja anything or even complain that someone rolled need. I have seen people ask other people to pass or not need, then link what they have in those spots and one person almost always will pass to allow the other to have the most needed upgrade.

[KalziEast]

In my eyes, if someone takes more than 1 item in the incorrect way (I state the rules every time I'm the leader. BoE greed, need if you need it, BoP pass, discuss after. If I remember, which I normally do, I Masterloot on bosses.) the first time they take the item, I warn them, the second time they take an item, I tell them "Okay, bye Ninja." and boot them.

[mesonm]

In my eyes, if someone takes more than 1 item in the incorrect way (I state the rules every time I'm the leader. BoE greed, need if you need it, BoP pass, discuss after. If I remember, which I normally do, I Masterloot on bosses.) the first time they take the item, I warn them, the second time they take an item, I tell them "Okay, bye Ninja." and boot them.


Only one person can be leader...An UBRS run takes ten people (or so...). Therefore, nine others have to depend on you not being the ninja.

[KalziEast]

Usually I have at least 2 guildy's in my run, in other words if I actually do ninja, I'll be kicked out of my guild. End-game guild. Lol.

[kcma]

the classic way accross all realms has been to pass on bop's.

every pug run I do, I verify rules before we start to be sure everyone is clear.

but ninja's are reason #290549257-7503789703874305908-754057928-39805834 why I dont do pug's.... ever.

the first time i run across that rule is when i rolled on oceanic realm khaz goroth. and sorry but this is the most retarded rule ever.

just use the in game roller, if you dont mind others having it then pass on it. roll greed if u want to vender it or DE it. roll need if you're going to use it. what's so difficult about it?

why must everyone pass? it's retarded and it's a complete waste of time. and please don't bring up the arguement that it gives ppl more time to think and avoid mistakes. you have 30 sec to think and roll and i believe that is PLENTY to work out whatever u have to work out.

all this rule of everyone pass on BOP does is garantee easy ninja to would be ninjas. i mean, if there's a ninja in your group he's gonna ninja, and this just make it sooooo much easier.

[xxlebox]

yeah, and if it's a smart ninja he'll be leader and kick all of ya out of the group to get his items ;)

and if you dont like ninja's... make sure you're the group leader, and noone else :D

[Amphi]

I define ninja'ing as rolling "need" for an item you do not need.

For example a huntle rolling need on cloth.

Or a priest rolling need on a sword.

Also, if a priest rolls need on a robe which is not as good as his current robe. He obviously doesnt need this robe, so it would be ninjaing.

[Binary Stylus]

Yeah -and noobs get stung by this. All this etiquette - greed on X - need on Y (But check first because someone might get upset if you click Need when you do Need because they want everyone to click greed - or pass - because Wait - ohh it was Bind on Pickup) but pass on Z because its BOP and you don't even know what a BOP stands for. Or get confused because that cloth was bind on equip - but you're noob so you only read Bind - and passed on something you needed 'cause of the hurl of abuse you got last time - and a warrior gets it on greed - and now you're upset and wondering if the rest of the game is gonna be this hard.

Just use the buttons - one says Greed the other Need - If you don't need it Greed it. Hunters Need everything. :)

I Though a Ninja was just someone who Needed on everything.

[snowieken]

I don't understand the passing... you get plenty of time to talk over and decide need or greed. If you need, just simply say "i'm going to need, if thats alright" I have never seen anyone complain about this. As others will also say, i'm going to need as well then the best roll wins.There used to be a time when I didn't understand this as well, but for me there is one, rather big, reason why I started to like the passing rule: people who loot in combat. When I don't have time to check whether I need the item or not, it's easy to just click pass and decide after the battle. And then scold the scallywag who looted in combat, of course.

With BoE's it isn't that important since you can still hand them around afterwards.My realm must just be full of honest people, i've never seen anyone ninja anything or even complain that someone rolled need. I have seen people ask other people to pass or not need, then link what they have in those spots and one person almost always will pass to allow the other to have the most needed upgrade.There I agree with you. I also never understood what the ninja fuss is about, must be my realm?

Anyway, to the topic at hand: I always hated blacklisting in any form or shape... It's rather easy to blacklist someone you simply have a grudge against. Need proof? I can fix that! And even if there is enough real proof, ninja-ing happens by mistake as well. Especially when some people insist on looting in combat. It's just not fair to blacklist Honest Joe because he accidently pressed Need when he wasn't paying attention.

*Overzealous Billy loots in combat, Honest Joe accidently pressed Need because he was busy dying*

Overzealous Billy: "OMG ninjaaaaa"
Honest Joe: "Sorry! I accidently pressed Need on that! Ack, I'm so sorry!
Overzealous Billy: "dont wanna hear dont wanna know! ninjaaaaaa! Hey everyone, Joe is a ninjaaaa! Took a screenie you big cheater!"

*Honest Joe gets blacklisted and has a hard time finding a group again*

Or, even worse.

Overzealous Billy: "OMG your a warrior, you use plate! you shouldn't need on mail you ninjaaaaaaa"
Honest Joe: "Uhm, these are Deadmines, I'm level 22, I can't use plate until level 40"
Overzealous Billy: "dont wanna hear dont wanna know! ninjaaaaaa! Hey everyone, Joe is a ninjaaaa! Took a screenie you big cheater!"

*Honest Joe gets blacklisted again and lost all his hopes of ever finding a group*

Oh well, you get my drift. I alsee agree wholeheartedly with Binary Stylus on this: newbies are not always aware of the etiquette and they shouldn't be blacklisted for that. Another good reason why looting rules should always be set beforehand, in every PuG you're in.

[Mallstrop]

Every one passing works so well since it leaves the loot on the corpse, from there you can decide who should get it, but it also gives you a chance to send a BoP item to a disenchanter if the winner wants to.

As for ninjaing, it really should be defined as taking an item by unfair methods.

The thing some people seem nieve about is that you can spot a ninja, masters of stealth and deception.

I have to say though, Blizz will never put a system in to mark a Ninja, that's where their "interesting use of game mechanics" comes in usefull. They never have to admit that they stole anything. Any in game system of black listing people would lead to bullying.

[Fursphere]

Still blind...

You join a group.... you are AGREEING with that loot system. If it changes, and you're not happy with the new loot rules, ask for it to change back, or leave the group, or shut up and deal with it.

Don't like it? Start your own group.

A "ninja" is NOT AGAINST THE RULES! Geesz people. If the leader put it on free for all, and someone picks something up, TOO BAD!

Remember, you participated in a group with that loot system. Personally, i HATE the "master loot" system. Why? Too many times the master looter screw up and gives the item to the wrong person. Or ever worse, takes 15 damn minutes to pass out loot.

Let the computer do the work, and pass out things automatically.

I like the "need before greed" system, but the auction house totally screws up this system. IE - people whine and cry about BoEs because they want to sell / shard them.

So I just run my runs on "group loot". Accidents happen with "n" or "g" rolls, but for the most part, it works just fine.

Lastely. When an item gets "ninja'd", just remember you help them "ninja" it. You helped kill whatever mob dropped it, and you agreed to the loot system before you killed it.

Have a nice day.

[snowieken]

Fursphere, before you get on your High Horse of Annoyance again, it might be wise to think about the fact that people have different definitions of the word "ninja". Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to you a ninja is someone who rolls need on things that he actually doesn't need. Well, let me reassure you that this is not a very wide spread definition amongst WoW players.

In most definitions, a ninja is someone who does exactly the opposite of what the group priorly agreed on. So in other words, your argument that people should suck it up because they chose the loot system themselves, doesn't hold water.

Now, another possibility is that you are merely saying that, by choosing the "need for greed" system, people set the door open for ninja's. Might be correct, but that doesn't mean by far that, when idiots do ninja loot, they should accept it.

[Fursphere]

A ninja is a person who:

A) Loot if on free for all. Person runs up and loots corpse, regardless of what group/raid is talking about.

B) Loot is on master loot. Something of value is looted by ML, to be rolled on later, and ML just keeps it and bails.

C) Loot is on group loot. Someone rolling "Need" on everything, including BoPs they can't even use. (I would kick this person from group after 2nd offense, after warning from 1st offense)

So.. what did I miss, definition wise?

A) You agreed on the loot type.
B) You agreed on the loot type.
C) Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me?

The obvious answer to have the least problems with ninja looting, is master looting.... if you can trust the ML to not be a greedy jerk. Next is group loot, let the computer pass things out based on electronic rolls.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but if everyone passes, then the item becomes lootable by all correct? IE - "free for all" ? Again, opening the door for a ninja looter to step and and grab something.

The definition of "need" is what's blurry. Everyone has thier own opinion of what someone needs and doesn't need. So you find yourself having to justify why you're rolling on something. Or two need it, but who needs it "more" ?

Bah, just roll, and let the computer figure it out.

[snowieken]

Every single loot system (and yes, Master Looter too, to a certain extent) is vulnerable to "ninja's". I agree with you there. I also agree that people have different opinions on the word "need". But that's just the reason why you can't trust on the computer system alone, and why people should communicate all the time and set up the rules for everyone, in every PUG, so that they are clear. If someone truly intends to steal loot, this likely won't hold him back... But this way mistakes can be eliminated already.

You know, our viewpoints on this are for the most part alike. I also believe ninja-ing is not against the rules. But it's just lame. And your first post (especially the last paragraph) indicated that people have mostly themselves to thank for being "ninja'd", and that they should suck it up and move on for that reason. And that is just a bit too simple to say.

[Fursphere]

And your first post (especially the last paragraph) indicated that people have mostly themselves to thank for being "ninja'd", and that they should suck it up and move on for that reason. And that is just a bit too simple to say.

Its too simple to say because its a very emotional issue. On my warrior, I cringe every time I do an UBRS run for an attempt at Dal'Rends main hand. I dont' raid ZG and up, so its something I want. I wonder who else will be rolling on it? (Hunters, Rogues, Warriors, Pallys...) I wonder if the master looter is going to be a drama retard at insist that a "rogue" needs it more (my warrior is DW Fury spec'd) than a warrior.

I miss the DKP of my raiding days, because DKP > random rolls. I think I have something like 35+ Dal'Rends main hand attempts now. I lost it to a rogue the other day, and was pretty upset, only because the rogue who won it hadn't put the time into his character that I have( I know because he had almost all green items), but he still won the roll, so that's just my bum luck.

Anyway, that's my opinion. If you think you've been cheated loot, look at the group setup before you start the instance.

[mesonm]

Remember, you participated in a group with that loot system. Personally, i HATE the "master loot" system. Why? Too many times the master looter screw up and gives the item to the wrong person. Or ever worse, takes 15 damn minutes to pass out loot.

You may hate the ML system...According to your first sentence quoted above, you sign up for it...Get to like it...

[Fursphere]

You may hate the ML system...According to your first sentence quoted above, you sign up for it...Get to like it...

I dont' always have the option of "having things my way" :tongue:

If I want things my way, I play my priest. :wink:

[joejoeirish]

The whole point to the addition of need/greed was to allow 2 different levels for people to chose from when dividing loot.

But most players don't even use this and use the old "pass on BOP" which is clumsy and waste of time.

Just roll need/greed/ or pass on all items. Problem solved.

[snowieken]

But most players don't even use this and use the old "pass on BOP" which is clumsy and waste of time.

Just roll need/greed/ or pass on all items. Problem solved.I used to agree with you and didn't see the need of the pass... But now I see things a bit differently. What if people loot in combat? I don't have the time to check if I actually need that thing (which is even more important because it's a BoP) if I am busy trying not to die.

Of course, if everything is dead, the passing is a bit redundant. But even then, if that's the rule people agreed to in the beginning, it should be applied there as well. Besides, it's just safer because people can press the wrong button, and this way you have some time to think about what you're doing.

And apart from all that, I don't have a clue what problem is solved by this, let alone how.

[Ubung]

Just thought id add a little to this discussion. This has been said earlier but I dont think people listened or understood properly.

The main reason to pass on BOP items is so an Enchanter can disenchant an unwanted item that is BOP. If you roll greed then win all you have in your hand is vendor trash. Mostly its better value to shard it.

Generally from my experience its

"Roll Need if you need it, roll greed if you dont"
"If its BOP then pass, decide if anyone needs to use it and let chanter loot it if nobody wants it. Chanter DE's it then everybody is happy"

Ninja's in my opinion are people who take items by cheating the system, whether it be master looter or N/G. Also people who take items they blatantly cant use (mage rolling on plate, warrior rolling on leather).

Although I disagree with the labelling of characters and what they can use (as in a paladin rolling on +def plate). That isnt ninja'ing although you will find a lot of people try to decide what you can and cant use.

Basically its all down to getting a good group, find a bunch of friendly people and keep it easy going and usually everything goes fine. I think a lot of people need to learn what being a good loser is all about, but they are in the minority.

Thanks for listening :thumbsup: