BOP Passing

[Tomah]

Whats the general concencus out there do you guys belive in passing on BOP items. I just did that for the second time and someone ninjaed the blue staff from SM off me. He rolled a lower number and then selected need after everyone else had passed. I'm intrested in seeing what you guys think

[Ashoran]

Just use the Need or Greed system, 3 minutes is plenty long enough for people to decide.

The only time you should divert from this is if youre guild running and passing on blues you dont need instead of greeding, allowing the item to be disenchanted. And of course raiding and whatnot, but that goes without saying really.

[Sukadoo]

I don't trust you people... period.

I will pass all day long in a guild group but I simply don't pass in PUGs.

Generally when I get a group for an Instance I ask that we all agree to pass on a BoP we cannot use (I've seen a Mage Need Herod's Shoulders in SM) and then for those remaining who can benefit from the item to Greed/Need for it per usual. This generally works out nicely especially since Blizz did lengthen the time on the BoP item Greed/Need timer a couple of patches ago.

I can see the logic in the larger group Instances/Raids passing all at once then taking the time to hash out who can use the item to the best of it's abilities... but again this is usually where one finds themselves ina Guild group and can trust everyone (within reason).

[Imraath]

This is why I like ML for bosses... It cuts the odds of being ripped off from 80% to 20% (or even 0% if you're the group leader)!

[Big Guns]

I always check before I venture on a new PuG and overwhelmingly I am told that on BoP we all pass and then sort out who needs and if more than one they roll and if no-one then we all roll. On some occassions people have even commented why I asked as they just assumed this to be the case.

If I have forgotten to ask and it is something I need I will say that I need it and ask do I pass or roll "need". Sometimes when I have done that and no-one else says "need" they roll anyway and of course I get screwed. That hasn't happened often.

Personally I would just prefer to use the need/greed but the problem with tha is once it is rolled ther is no room to convince someone that they really don't need the item and to let someone who does have it.

Another bone of contention is the meaning of "need". For me it means a significant upgrade. However I have noticed that others feel they "need" something if it is only a slight improvement.

[Farq]

/agree Big Guns
Also, some peoples idea of 'need' is as PvP gear or something so will only be used on occasion. I generally only get a pug if I am the leader or if a friend is leading the group as I prefer everyone to pass also.
If I am in a group with someone who will get very minor upgrade from something vs. someone who really needs it I will always ask that the 1st person pass on it for the second. They have the right to roll but I always think its fair if the people who need it the most get it as opposed to those who 'want' it and therefore class it as 'need'

[Mallstrop]

I allways wait to be last to roll, that way I can see if some one's rolled greed. You generally have atleast 1 roll of greed so by then you'd might aswell choose if you want it or not. I don't mind passing if every one else does.

One UBRS run the Blackhand doomsaw and the Chromatic carapace dropped and every one rolled greed, waiting to the end instead of passing meant I got them both :) I got a bit of flak for rolling need but with the rest having rolled greed, it's the only way I could have gotten them since they're BoP and most of the people I'd be rolling against can't use them.

[Loriel]

I think the need/greed system is very dangerous on BOP items, as the result is irreversible and final. 3 minutes might be enough time to figure out if you need it or not, but some groups (even PUGs) use some kind of ad hoc loot counsel to figure out which character needs this the most, i.e. that player for whom this would be a bigger upgrade.

It gets even more complicated on BOE epics, as some people believe these should be ffa while others (including me) think that need should still prevail - assuming they equip the item then and there. I was on a UBRS run once, and the Jeweled Amulet of Cainwyn dropped. The casters argued that it should be a need roll for those who could use it, while some argued in favor of ffa. I would hate to have this kind of discussion under the pressure of a 3 minute timer. I realize that this item is BoE and it can in theory be traded to whoever won the roll, but people can be reluctant to give it up if they won the "need" roll on it.

Another imho valid reason to pass on BoP is the "looting in combat" issue, which we all know happen occasionally - even with experienced players. Once it's established that the group will pass on all BoPs, players can confidently close that dialog box and continue the fight. It would truly suck to wipe because somebody was distracted by the in-combat loot, and considering whether he should need or greed it.

I'm aware that accidents can and do happen, but I'd still vote for the "pass on BOPs" system - even in PUGs. Lay out the looting rules before starting, and flame or kick those who do not comply.

I allways wait to be last to roll, that way I can see if some one's rolled greed. You generally have atleast 1 roll of greed so by then you'd might aswell choose if you want it or not. I don't mind passing if every one else does.

One UBRS run the Blackhand doomsaw and the Chromatic carapace dropped and every one rolled greed, waiting to the end instead of passing meant I got them both :) I got a bit of flak for rolling need but with the rest having rolled greed, it's the only way I could have gotten them since they're BoP and most of the people I'd be rolling against can't use them.TBH, this seems a bit ninja-ish to me - and it is yet another argument for why I think it is better to pass on BOPs. It should not ever be necessary to wait until the end to roll, as your position on the item should be (and is) independent of all others - you either need it or you don't.

You also state that this was the only way you could have gotten them, and that most of the people couldn't use them. This means that some of the other people could use them, but you imho screwed them over by waiting to see their need/greed calls before need'ing yourself. Gotta say, I'm not all that impressed by that..

No wonder a lot of people insist on Master Looter in UBRS..

[Mallstrop]

TBH, this seems a bit ninja-ish to me - and it is yet another argument for why I think it is better to pass on BOPs. It should not ever be necessary to wait until the end to roll, as your position on the item should be (and is) independent of all others - you either need it or you don't.


Answer me 1 question:

Why should I pass on an item and let it go to one of the people that have rolled greed even though I can use it?


You also state that this was the only way you could have gotten them, and that most of the people couldn't use them. This means that some of the other people could use them, but you imho screwed them over by waiting to see their need/greed calls before need'ing yourself. Gotta say, I'm not all that impressed by that..


3 possibilities in this circumstance:
1. I pass meaning the item goes to one of the people that rolled greed, being a polearm, chances are it goes to some one that can't use it, the only think I know for sure is that it doesn't go to me.

2. I roll Greed meaning the item again goes to some one that rolled greed, only difference is that I have a small chance of getting it, rolling against the people that don't need it.

3. I roll Need meaning I get the item, also meaning it goes to some one that really needs it.

Now, put your self in my position. You're a paladin, Chromatic carapace (epic armour quest item, quite rare) drops, the warrior of the group passes , only person left that can use it is you. A clothie rolls greed and every one is told that since one has rolled greed that every one should. What would you do?

That might give you a little insite as to why I wait to the end to roll.

[Loriel]

Fair enough, but this was new information not reflected in your original post. If you were the only char (warrior or paladin) that needed the item for the epic armor quest, then yes - it is imho fair to roll need, even if this is not what the group had agreed on.
Same goes for the polearm. Assuming you could use it (i.e. not just equip it but actually needed it), then yes - I would probably roll need as well.

The reason you got flak for it is probably because you didn't adhere to the "everyone greeds" credo of the group, which imho just goes to show how stupid it is to use need/greep on BOPs anyway.

What would I have done? Insisted on not using need/greed for BOPs, or used Master Looter. Sorted.

[Mallstrop]

I generally stick to ML, but there are times that I just don't trust the leader, or the Master looter gets disconnected in the fight.

But staying as the last to roll lets me decide what to do, I only PuG so most of the times you can't trust people to pass.

[swaldman]

I always check before I venture on a new PuG and overwhelmingly I am told that on BoP we all pass and then sort out who needs and if more than one they roll and if no-one then we all roll. On some occassions people have even commented why I asked as they just assumed this to be the case.


I think maybe this varies from server to server. On mine, the norm is definitely need or pass.

To respond to a couple of other things:

I don't always like Master Looter, unless I know the leader. I've had a situation with ML where I've won a roll and the leader has said "you're a paladin, you don't need +spell crit, I'm giving it to the mage". This made me angry.

BoE epics do seem to be a bone of contention. I strongly believe that they should be needed by people who need them - so long as they equip them there and then so that we can see. But others go ZOMG EPIXXXX THAT'S WORTH GOLD!
We even had an argument in-guild last night (quickly squashed, of course), where somebody objected to the only alchemist present needing the recipe for Flask of Supreme Power on the basis that "that's worth like 500g!".

[Morollan]

I generally stick to ML, but there are times that I just don't trust the leader, or the Master looter gets disconnected in the fight.

But staying as the last to roll lets me decide what to do, I only PuG so most of the times you can't trust people to pass. Sorry but, even with the additional information you provided after your earlier post, I'd still have kicked you from the group if I was the leader and badmouthed you in LFG if I'd been in that group. Assuming you were actually on the quest that needed the carapace, if you'd said in /ra that you wanted to need it and nobody objected then fair enough. But if you just wait to see everyone else greed and then you roll need then that IMO is the very definition of a ninja.

[Mallstrop]

Sorry but, even with the additional information you provided after your earlier post, I'd still have kicked you from the group if I was the leader and badmouthed you in LFG if I'd been in that group.


I'd be happy to get out of there, I had an epic item, all I wanted :) Any leader that would have kicked me for taking an item I need rather than giving it to a random group member isn't a leader I want to play with. I may be harsh saying this but that leader is an absolute idiot if he can't understand what I did considering it's a BoP item.


Assuming you were actually on the quest that needed the carapace, if you'd said in /ra that you wanted to need it and nobody objected then fair enough. But if you just wait to see everyone else greed and then you roll need then that IMO is the very definition of a ninja.

I wasn't on the quest, but with the hard part of it found I can start it. So, you want me to choose between taking (ninjaing it as you say) or rolling greed with the rest of them and letting them take a BoP epic they can't even use. Tough choice.

I'll admit, it's not the first think I've ninjad. So far the top items are 2 Ace of portals from gandling, just wait for the rest to leave then go loot it, you have to be the ML to do it though, I also got the Major mana potion recipe one of those times. And so far, Flask of titans, chromatic resistance and spellpower. Luckily I have a level 5 alt that can sell all these.

Atleast if I was going to ninja something I should have done it in style.

[Ebgreen]

For me it is very simple. If it is stated at the beginning of the group that you always pass on BOP and you roll on one, /kick. No discussion, no questions, no extenuating circumstances. You agreed to a set of rules for the group then you violated them.

[Morollan]

I'll admit, it's not the first think I've ninjad. So far the top items are 2 Ace of portals from gandling, just wait for the rest to leave then go loot it, you have to be the ML to do it though, I also got the Major mana potion recipe one of those times. And so far, Flask of titans, chromatic resistance and spellpower. Luckily I have a level 5 alt that can sell all these. I sincerely hope I never group wit you or anyone else like you. Do you enjoy being a thief?

[Mallstrop]

/kick. No discussion, no questions, no extenuating circumstances. You agreed to a set of rules for the group then you violated them.

That's the problems with some players, they don't adjust to the situation. If only every one brought with them the ability to think, everything would be so much more efficient.


I sincerely hope I never group wit you or anyone else like you. Do you enjoy being a thief?

I love it :)

I am careful though, I don't steal, I just take stuff other people don't even have. I consider it more of a con than stealing. People don't even know they're losing out, and that means I can't get in trouble.

[rgirty]

I'll admit, it's not the first think I've ninjad. So far the top items are 2 Ace of portals from gandling, just wait for the rest to leave then go loot it, you have to be the ML to do it though, I also got the Major mana potion recipe one of those times. And so far, Flask of titans, chromatic resistance and spellpower. Luckily I have a level 5 alt that can sell all these.

Everyone should take a look here at this fine example of how a ninja works, not only will he make himself the ML to obtain the items he knows that it is wrong. This is proven by the offender stating that the level 5 alt can sell these.

In the groups I put together, I simply ask that people type or say over vent what they intend to roll. Any deviation from this = ninja.

I'm not sure what reasoning someone uses in making it ok with themselves knowing that the gold or items they obtained was basically stolen from people who put a little trust in them.

[Morollan]

I am careful though, I don't steal, I just take stuff other people don't even have. I consider it more of a con than stealing. People don't even know they're losing out, and that means I can't get in trouble. Of course you're stealing. You're a liar and a thief and you hide behind the anonymity of these forums to get away with it. You're a very strong advertisement for why ML should display the loot to the whole group.

[Mallstrop]

In the groups I put together, I simply ask that people type or say over vent what they intend to roll. Any deviation from this = ninja.


I don't steal things all the time, I have a good reputation on my server. The majority of the groups I join go very smootly. I do stick to loot rules, but every now and again I do have to break them to fix problems, if some one rolls greed on something I need, I will roll need.


I'm not sure what reasoning someone uses in making it ok with themselves knowing that the gold or items they obtained was basically stolen from people who put a little trust in them.

Trust no one, that's the key.

[Morollan]

Trust no one, that's the key. Least of all you.

[Mallstrop]

Least of all you.

Pity you don't know who I am :) I could be in your guild and you wouldn't know. I could have taken stuff from your group without you knowing.

[Morollan]

Pity you don't know who I am :) I could be in your guild and you wouldn't know. I could have taken stuff from your group without you knowing. Doubt it. The people in my guild are decent folk, not scum. And I won't go with ML in PUGs unless I know the Master Looter.

[MoRRoW]

I read a LOT of people being affraid of ninja's and stuff. I've always used the group loot settings and people just roll need/greed for everything and I never had any problems with it.

you need you click it, you don't need, you greed it. that's the end of it. Even then, if someone actually hit NEED and he doesn't need it, gratz to him on getting an item he won't be able to use and that he'll get 1-5G when vendoring it but will have a bad rep for doing it.

It's not the end of the world, it's not like it's the only time that this item will ever drop.

If you say : YEAH BUT I've been running this instance 20 times to get the item and bla bla bla, well just run it another 20 times. Why do you play Warcraft if not for running the same things over and over again?

I haven't heard of any warcraft player that got every thing they needed the first run they tried it and never went back to an instance after. If you would get eevrything the first shot, you would've had quit warcraft a long time ago. If yuo play warcraft for loot, quit now cause with the BC, the stuff you have right now won'T be worth much 2 weeks in BC.. ;)

Beeing ninja'ed or being beated by someone else's alt on an item is the same result. You don't get the item either way. Are you going to start complaining that since this is your main and the other uses his alt, you should get the item before him?

And if you don't have 4 friends that you can rely on to make some groups to get a particular item, maybe you should try to make some more friends ;)

[rgirty]

Trust no one, that's the key.

People being honest and not stealing from each other is the key.

People that ninja log onto their char and should realize that they didn't earn the things you have you simply stole them from other players.

[Mallstrop]

Doubt it. The people in my guild are decent folk

I wonder what my guild would say about me? Every one loves me. Ofcourse, the only people that know what I've done are me and 3 very close friends.


People that ninja log onto their char and should realize that they didn't earn the things you have you simply stole them from other players.

I earnt every single bit of gear each of my characters use.

[rgirty]

I do believe this has dissolved into trolling and flaming. The only positive thing that people can take from this thread is realizing that people like the ones posting here in this thread exist.

[mesonm]

I'll admit, it's not the first think I've ninjad.


you are just a troll now...

[Morollan]

I wonder what my guild would say about me? Every one loves me. Ofcourse, the only people that know what I've done are me and 3 very close friends. Wonder that they think of you? I mean really think. Not just what they say to your face.

I earnt every single bit of gear each of my characters use. No you didn't. You stole at least some of it and no doubt used the proceeds from those thefts to buy some of the rest. So most of your gear is tainted. Still if you're sad enough to feel the need to steal from people rather than earn what you get then I pity you. I bet you buy gold too, don't you.

[Mallstrop]

If we're going to stop posting here, I must say: I don't go out just to Ninja things, I just get presented with the opertunity and have to take it.

The original post of mine, I don't think I stole anything, it was mine for the taking since the only other person that needed it had passed and a few others had rolled greed, on a BoP Epic item without a sale value.


Bah, I'll have to edit this in:
Wonder that they think of you? I mean really think. Not just what they say to your face.

You really think they know what I've done?

[rgirty]

I earnt every single bit of gear each of my characters use


No, you have not. Stealing is not earning.

I'm done here, there really is nothing else to say. I do appreciate the honesty at least in this thread mallstrop it truly gives us the insight of a ninja. How one can proclaim that he steals things, even keeps a list then also state that

"I earnt every single bit of gear each of my characters use."

gives me at least a better idea of how people actually rationalize their behavior.

[Morollan]

You really think they know what I've done? Well you did say that they did:

the only people that know what I've done are me and 3 very close friends.

Still, you are a complete liar so I suppose we'll have to take anything you say with a giant bucket of salt.

[Mallstrop]

I never did say they knew.

[Morollan]

I never did say they knew. Yes, you did you muppet. I even quoted where you said it!

[Mallstrop]

What post number? I can't see your quote.

[Idol]

The way we do it at the min is just to click to right box.

If you don't want it at all, just pass.

If you kinda want it, but just to sell (or in this case DE) press greed.

If you actually need it, (meaning you can equip it and its an upgrade, not need it for money) you need.

I take a minute or two to explain this to my fellow PUG'ers at the start and loot normally goes smoothly. I just wish I could say the same about the actual instance...

[Morollan]

What post number? I can't see your quote. Find it yourself you lazy sod.

[Mallstrop]

Find it yourself you lazy sod.

I can't find it, that's why I asked.

[Morollan]

I can't find it, that's why I asked. I believe that's your problem pal, not mine.

[Mallstrop]

The way we do it at the min is just to click to right box.

If you don't want it at all, just pass.

If you kinda want it, but just to sell (or in this case DE) press greed.

If you actually need it, (meaning you can equip it and its an upgrade, not need it for money) you need.

I take a minute or two to explain this to my fellow PUG'ers at the start and loot normally goes smoothly. I just wish I could say the same about the actual instance...

I quite like that style of looting, certainly speeds up the runs. Nothing I hate more than a Master Looter taking ages to go through all the loot.

It does however lead to some arguments when one class should have higher priority than another on an item. My paladin wears cloth items but I am quite considerate and wait to see that the priest doesn't need it before I'll roll need.

[Mallstrop]

I believe that's your problem pal, not mine.

Fair enough, I'll take that as you saying you were wrong.

[Morollan]

Fair enough, I'll take that as you saying you were wrong. Take it anyway you want. Those of us capable of reading will know that I'm right. Anyway, I'm through here. Either you're a troll or a thief, either way I'm not wasting anymore time on you.

[Mallstrop]

I just can't find anywhere that I say my guild what I've done.

[Dynatos]

Are you blind, or do you just forget the crap that comes out of your mouth after you've said it?

Morollan said nothing of your guild; he commented on how he wonders what your "friends" say about you behind your back. And, yes, you did say that your friends know.

I wonder what my guild would say about me? Every one loves me. Ofcourse, the only people that know what I've done are me and 3 very close friends.

[Mallstrop]

He said it about a sentance where I said my guild didn't know what I'd done and since there's never been a question of how faithful my friends are and there was questions about my guild, I had to assume you were talking about my guild.

As for the friends, I shared the money, they even helped me on gandling, they took the people back through the instance out of loot message range so I could pick things up. Just say you forgot one of the deeds and ask if they'll take you to it.

[Valas Azuviir]

Ok, folks. Time to chill, and considering that this thread isn't helping, I'm going to lock it down. Fair warning though, I see anyone taking their grudges into other threads and turning them toasty as a result, and I will give you a cool down period.

You want unlimited flaming space? Then take it to the official forums please.