Room for Shadowpriests in BC Raids?

[Steamboat]

We thoroughly hijacked the other thread, I thought it would be best to start a new one.

I'm still working on specific numbers. I'd like to try to be as specific as possible. In the meantime, I do have a rough comparison I'd like to show.

For the moment I'm setting aside the utility of the Shadowpriest (Vampiric Embrace, Vampiric Touch, backup healer.) This is a pure DPS comparison.

This is a real example of my situation. I have a 60 warlock and a 60 priest, both are equally geared. I raided with my warlock for a long time, then I asked my guild if I could trade out and let my shadowpriest take my warlock's place. There are 2 other warlocks in our core group of raiders.

So, if your choice is either 3 warlocks, or 2 warlocks and a priest in shadowform - which gives more DPS if all are equally geared?

I think an average amount of +damage gear for a raider is +400, so that's what I used in my example. The most common warlock raiding spec is SM/Ruin, that's what I use in my example as well.

Assuming an SM/Ruin warlock with +400 damage uses all dots and spams shadowbolt, they put out 571 DPS. I found this using a spreadsheet created by someone named Peanalope on the Warsong server.

Assuming the most common Shadow talents, a Shadowpriest with +400 damage and CoS on his target is worth 464 DPS. (Added 5% DPS b/c we know that shadowpriest damage is increased 5% in the BC due to the Misery talent.)

So if you have 3 warlocks:
571
571
571
_____
=1713 DPS

In the BC, a Shadowpriest will boost warlock damage by 20%. This raises the warlock DPS from 571 to 685.

So 2 warlocks and 1 Shadowpriest gives:
685
685
464
____
1834.

You get more DPS with the Shadowpriest.

Keep in mind, this is an EXTREMELY conservative estimate in terms of Shadowpriest DPS. I calculated the Shadowpriest DPS leaving out several items which will improve it, such as Mindblast, Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Death, and the increase in bonus from +damage gear that Shadowpriests will receive in the BC.

More to come...

[Oatmealsmurf]

Not saying there isn't room... but you can't factor in a BC talent for the priest when you don't know how much DPS locks will pump out in BC as compared to Shadow Priests.

[Gyoza]

Not saying there isn't room... but you can't factor in a BC talent for the priest when you don't know how much DPS locks will pump out in BC as compared to Shadow Priests.

even if you take out the extra 5%, you are still at a bit more dps with the SP.


Plus you get a dps toon that can heal himself and others (either thru VE or dropping out of shadow in emergency), has pw:s, can slow runners, and in extreme cases can even step in and tank :)

[Nitsujcm]

... can you say mana battery?
They have had to step up and take a spot in raids and prove they deserve to be there. Once BC comes out their place will be obvious.

[mesonm]

So if you have 3 warlocks:
571
571
571
_____
=1713 DPS

In the BC, a Shadowpriest will boost warlock damage by 20%. This raises the warlock DPS from 571 to 685.

So 2 warlocks and 1 Shadowpriest gives:
685
685
464
____
1834.

You get more DPS with the Shadowpriest.


Not sure yet if you are proposing that they don't already have this as a possibility...

Shadow Weaving does wonders in the rag fight when locks curse a shadow weaved rag...

[Oatmealsmurf]

yeah shadow weaving is great for locks. (believe me as a lock I personally love having a shadow priest in the raid) and are definitely great to have in fights like Rags where the goal is to burn him down as fast as possible and not having to worry about aggro.

But considering the shadow priests big weakness (mana) how does their DPS fare over prolonged fights? I mean mages have bigger mana pools and offten have clear casting... Locks can tap and get mana back.

Are your numbers based on optimal dps for when you are in full on burst mode or do they take into account those fights that by design take 10 minutes or longer? How much sustained DPS will a shadow priest put out in comparison with a lock?

[Steamboat]

Are your numbers based on optimal dps for when you are in full on burst mode or do they take into account those fights that by design take 10 minutes or longer? How much sustained DPS will a shadow priest put out in comparison with a lock?

Well, basically just based on my experience. I've done Onyxia, Hakkar, Kurinaxx, and Rajaxx in Shadowform and had enough mana for the whole fight. But I know longevity is a weakness and I've built my shadow damage set to lean toward intellect and some mp5. Plus I use mageblood / brilliant mana oil / nightfin soup. Which is ironic b/c I don't generally use them when I heal.

I can only guess at how long a Shadowpriest could last in a boss fight in the BC, but there are two BC talents that will improve efficiency. One talent reduces the mana cost of mindflay and mindblast by 15%. The other talent of course is Vampiric Touch. That and I always have meditation in my shadow raiding builds - and hopefully by 70 I'll have 3 piece trans or something better.

[Gyoza]

with meditation, lots of spirit, int and mp5 and perhaps a mana pot and some buffs, you are more than fine as a shadow priest.

takes a bit more mgmt than lock or mage, but it can be done without too much effort....

and there is always the wand LOL

[rgirty]

So if you have 3 warlocks:
571
571
571
_____
=1713 DPS

In the BC, a Shadowpriest will boost warlock damage by 20%. This raises the warlock DPS from 571 to 685.

So 2 warlocks and 1 Shadowpriest gives:
685
685
464
____
1834.

You get more DPS with the Shadowpriest.



Does this assume that the 20% debuff misery and shadowweave is applied 100% of the time?

[Steamboat]

Does this assume that the 20% debuff misery and shadowweave is applied 100% of the time?

If the shadowpriest is doing a good job, misery and shadoweaving x5 will be on the target for the entire boss fight, minus the first 9 seconds. (1.5 seconds for vampiric touch, 6 seconds to spam lvl 1 sw:p 4 times, 1.5 seconds to put up the highest lvl of sw:p)

So yeah the debuff will probably be fully applied before they even call for DPS.

[rgirty]

If the shadowpriest is doing a good job, misery and shadoweaving x5 will be on the target for the entire boss fight, minus the first 9 seconds. (1.5 seconds for vampiric touch, 6 seconds to spam lvl 1 sw:p 4 times, 1.5 seconds to put up the highest lvl of sw:p)

So yeah the debuff will probably be fully applied before they even call for DPS.

Short answer yes.

Your math relies on the debuffs being up 100%

Also, your math relates to the warlock class one of the smallest % played char's in WoW.

The shadowpriests dps contribution depends on 100% debuff in addition to an adequate number of warlocks being in the raid and doing their max dps.

I see 5 points of failure here, any of those 4 people not on their toes or simply not enough warlocks for the raid.

Bring a dps class and you have more or less one point of failure, that one person doing, or not doing their job as dps. You wouldn't be relying on debuffs, the 3 warlocks doing their max damage or if enough of them are there in the raid.

I'll agree a shadowpriest COULD be more viable post expansion, only time will tell. It is a good discussion for sure and very interesting. I still don't buy it.

[Steamboat]

I see 5 points of failure here, .

What are the 5 points of failure?

Anyway as I said this is an example from my guild. We always have 2 warlocks for 20 man content. It might go up when we run 25 man content, but it's not likely to be lower than 2.

Absolutely the math isn't as specific as I'd like. Maybe we can't keep shadowweaving up 100% of the time. But I tried to keep my example conservative. Don't forget that I completely left out the DPS a shadowpriest will add with mindblast, vampiric touch, and shadow word: death. If vampiric touch has similar damage to sw:p, vampiric touch alone adds another 97 DPS to the shadowpriest.

[rgirty]

Steamboat, its a great discussion. I'm very interested to see how it could go post expansion.

5 points of failure.

3x warlocks dps ability
1x priest playing ability
1x attendance of warlocks

I wouldn't mind spec'ing shadow for raids myself, i just feel like i'd be gimping the raid, as i still believe a true dps class could bring more to the raid.

We'll see!

[Gyoza]

If the shadowpriest is doing a good job, misery and shadoweaving x5 will be on the target for the entire boss fight, minus the first 9 seconds. (1.5 seconds for vampiric touch, 6 seconds to spam lvl 1 sw:p 4 times, 1.5 seconds to put up the highest lvl of sw:p)

So yeah the debuff will probably be fully applied before they even call for DPS.


thank you :)

and for all these people saying that shadow priest cant do this, or cant do that....

unless you:

1. have a shadow priest
2. have the points spent for pve (mana regen, aggro reduction, etc)
3. have the right gear (focus on +int, mp5 & spirit)

you dont even know how flexible and potent they can really be in shadow form. I even have other SP's scoff at me all the time when I make these arguments, but as soon as they see it... amazed... followed by frenzied questions.

[darkcaliph]

with VE, vampiric embrace for the uninitiated, and shadow weaving, an extra shield, mind control, and yes fear there's ALOT of room for shadow priests.

-MC and use mob as extra tank. other mobs will kill it. Great CC. dangerous when broken, alot of aggro for the priest. Priest can use fade.

-shadow weaving increases all shadow damage by 15%. yeah locks and priests are happy. more dps, less healing more loot at the end of a successful run.

-shield the group member most in need, conserves healers mana, allows for an extra nuke or two.

-fear is actually useable in the new instances. lots of room once you've done the initial instance clearing. Can be used in a "fear rotation" if you have more than 1 priest. takes coordination. do not use until pats are cleared and there's more room in the instance.

- VT- vampiric touch. i'm not sold on it personally. the mana gain to me is inconsequential. as a warlock, i'm not hurting for mana anyway. might be good for mages, shammies, and priests. i'm not sold.

Lots of room for shadow priests in instances. my experience thus far in BC is just the first 2 instances, but this all worked flawlessly for us.

gl hf
peace.

[Icefrost]

Indirectly related to the topic, let me throw you another bone to chew on: who will be healing in TBC? With all the new changes, druids and paladins will only do it with a bit groan.
As a druid myself, it already seemed for a while that we are finally getting out of the damn pigeonholed system of healing, but when I heard what was done to priests...well you can imagine.

One thing I can say is I am not going to be main healer in more than 10% of all instance runs I do in TBC. Period.

[Shadowpain]

No.

If you want to do DPS, roll a rogue/mage/warr or pala.

Priests are for healing IMO.

[Icefrost]

If you want to do DPS, roll a rogue/mage/warr or pala.

Anyone else smell something?

But I have to agree, that priests are (supposed to be) for healing, essentially.

[Aegil]

Shadowpriests aren't in raids for pure DPS. They are brilliant support units.
They boost locks DPS and can heal if needed.

You only need one in a raid most of the time though.

[darkcaliph]

No.

If you want to do DPS, roll a rogue/mage/warr or pala.

Priests are for healing IMO.

i'm sorry but that's so last year adn last mmo. shadowpriests as i wrote in my write up can do so much more. VE is for healing thru dps, shield, fort buff, shadow buff, shadow weaving, fear (very useful in the first 2 instances). mind control, and of course extra healing.

you need 1 healer and everyone else is dps/cc/puller/kiter.

[Nitsujcm]

No.

If you want to do DPS, roll a rogue/mage/warr or pala.

Priests are for healing IMO.

I have seen this over and over. IMO its lame at best. You are saying an entire tree is in conflict with the class. A end tree move is the opposite of what the class is supposed to do.

As a priest- you can roll either healing or DPS and do very well at either. If priests are not for DPS at all and just meant to heal, why have a shadow tree and why give it so much power? I am lvl 62 and took down a 66 rouge. When the cap was at 60 it was rare to find I warrior that could beat me. I healed and did a lot of damage in raids. Its just ridiculous to say a priest isn't made for DPS simply because they can out heal any other class. That's like saying a warrior shouldn't dps, just tank. A rouge shouldn't group - just pvp.

I usually find people who make this argument have never played a priest in either a healing or dps roll. They are usually warriors that aren’t satisfied with druid heals or a dmg class that don’t like getting out dpsed by a healing class. I am not saying this is you, I am just saying that is what I have seen in the past.

[MadVlad]

On a random note, thank you, *thank you*, for spelling "ridiculous" correctly.

That is all.

[Dcapriest]

Having run many a BC raid with my guild Extortion, This question has been posed many a time. There are many factors to take into consideration and threads like this are just the thing to float ideas. I myself currently run Full shadow with of course improved shield and fort etc.. >>SPEC (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/priest/talents.html?500230000000000000000000000000000000000000553252010251123051431)<<

Presently we are trialling with myself in melee groups for VE with our main healers doing the main top ups. We are finding it is conserving the mana of the main healers really well. Also having the shadowfiend available at 5min intervals is a great boost to mana as well. :flowers:

As for my own opinion to 'Is there room?' For the moment I say 'aye' yes it is also a tad biased as I love the shadow aspect of the priest. The dark side has it's advantages. I was holy specced for most of pre BC raiding in MC and AQ etc.

We shall see what eventuates from these discussions and ideas! It is always good to keep an open mind. Lets see what develops from here! :afro:

[Falgorn]

Shadowpriests in 5 man are fine. Their DPS isn't the best but it comes with added utility of healing, and ofc they can switch out of shadowform and offheal. With a Warlock along for the ride it's even better.

In Karavan, unless you are trying to fill spots I would say no. Fights last too long and sustainable DPS is highly important. It's usually a race to DPS down the targets before Healers run oom, and there is too many multifunction fights and too many situations requiring sudden high burst damage on secondary targets, all the while maintaining DPS on a main target.

Furthermore - Tanks need to get and hold aggro fast, and a high threat class like shadowpriest doesn't bode well in these circumstances.

I think a Shadowpriest is better than a Ret Paladin, but worse than a Feral Druid in terms of raid utility. I would always take a mage / warlock / rogue over a Shadowpriest. I think the changes to the Priest class in the next patch highlights Blizzard's wish to keep Shadowpriests as a PvP or solo PvE spec.

[JuiceK]

Shadowpriests in 5 man are fine. Their DPS isn't the best but it comes with added utility of healing, and ofc they can switch out of shadowform and offheal. With a Warlock along for the ride it's even better.

In Karavan, unless you are trying to fill spots I would say no. Fights last too long and sustainable DPS is highly important. It's usually a race to DPS down the targets before Healers run oom, and there is too many multifunction fights and too many situations requiring sudden high burst damage on secondary targets, all the while maintaining DPS on a main target.

Furthermore - Tanks need to get and hold aggro fast, and a high threat class like shadowpriest doesn't bode well in these circumstances.

I think a Shadowpriest is better than a Ret Paladin, but worse than a Feral Druid in terms of raid utility. I would always take a mage / warlock / rogue over a Shadowpriest. I think the changes to the Priest class in the next patch highlights Blizzard's wish to keep Shadowpriests as a PvP or solo PvE spec.

Are you a priest? Have you played a shadow priest in TBC? Have you talked to the shadow priests about thier play style? I ask because most of what you say is very untrue.

I have been a priest for a very long time (healbot for over a year) since the TBC I have been a shadow priest doing DPS and secondary healing when needed. The only time I ever run out of mana on any of the boss fights we have done up to the Curator, is when we are short a healer and I main heal. We have only been in Karazhan for 3 weeks (only run on Friday nights at this point), we are a casual raiding guild.

Anyone can pull agro very fast if you play stupid, as a shadow priest you don't open with mindblast as soon as the tank has enganged or as a mage you don't pyroblast right away. If you slowly put your dots on and then ramp up DPS you will not run out of mana and neither will the paladin or warlock in your group. I have come out of Karazhan in the top 3 DPS everytime, the warlock lead the DPS charts due to never being out of mana and the paladin lead the healing charts since they were never worried about mana.

Get the right enchants, trinkets, etc and have a capable tank and you will not pull aggro unless your trying to. To each his own if you wish to gimp your raid by not taking a shadowpriest along, we have much more utility in Karazhan than any mage can provide unless you are killing the spiders in the basement and you want to sheep some of them. Free food and water is nice but I would prefer to have the extra shackle available since sheep is pretty much no good in Karazhan. Does that mean I don't want to bring mages, absolutely not, their AOE and DPS is very important but if I already had one I would pull a 2nd shadow priest over a second mage.

I am usually in the main tank group with a warlock (Imp), paladin (aura), warrior (tank) and druid (off-tank) and I use VE to keep all the people topped off healthwise and the paladin full on mana along with healing the warlock from lifetaps and giving them both more mana with VT. The main healers love it since there is always a steady stream of healing going into both tanks. I have about +600 damage gear 9k health and 10k mana raid buffed and there is still room to improve my gear, so get some good gear and don't neglect stam and intel on the way and you will not have mana issues. I know one thing that helps me is that over that year of healbotting I learned to manage my mana pool very well. This may be why yours and other shadow priests are running out of mana, they are playing PvE like it is PvP and doing way to much burst damage way to fast and either pulling aggro or running out of mana.

Have a great day.

PS I ran the last raid instance we did and multiple instances without silent resolve to practice not having it in the near future. Last night in a Shattered Halls run I only pulled aggro once off our main raiding tank and no one died on the run, we were doing some tests to see how hard I could push it without pulling aggro. I used some consumables etc to really push it also. The run took about a hour so backing off slightly on DPS did not slow us down much.

[TheBlackestDrake]

Have the people here even looked at the new talents and spells Shadow Priests got? I ask because the number of inaccurate statements I'm seeing is truly amazing. Here's a sample:

"Can't keep the mana up."
Yes, before they got a mana adding DOT and Focused Mind, this was certainly true. The mana adding DOT is useful, 15% reduced mana cost is useful. I just don't see any way this applies any more.

"No way to regen mana"
Except, of course, a innervate+beatstick. Bad against AOE? Yes. Time it right, and its utterly amazing though.

"No Burst DPS"
Because, of course, Shadow Word: Death wasn't added. Shadow Word: Death + Mind Blast is pretty nice burst DPS - maybe not the highest of any class, but hardly easily ignored.

"Fights are too long, sustainable DPS is important."
Shadow Word: Pain and Mind Flay have some of the best damage/mana ratios of any spell in the game. Shadow priests can easily mind flay the entire fight and have very, very controllable damage. No accidental crits into grabbing aggro, great damage/mana, healing and regaining mana for the rest of the group.



Final point: Everyone who has done it says it works fine. Nobody who says it doesn't work is doing anything more than theorycrafting.

I'm NOT a raiding shadow priest, but I did spend 60-69 as one, our guild has a 70 Shadow Priest, and I'll happily tell you that most of the things posted here are false.

What is true? Don't bring 2. Shadow Priests don't play well together.

[Lothoran]

Shadow Priests are marvelous, but only is ever needed in any group/raid. And if you are having mana problems on RAID BOSSES: learn2consumable. If you consider yourself a raider this should already be ingrained into your head.

[Your Average WoW Player]

I've always thought that Shadow Priests have had a place in raids even before TBC. Yes, Holy spec plus gear=one of the most kick-ass healers in the game, but the buffs/debuffs that Shadow Priests have, and have had, are some useful stuff.

[Ilzien]

Never played one but...In My experiences...

They aren't super in 5 mans, unless you have 2. I did Temple of Atal"hakkar with 2, 1 warrior, and a mage. We cleaned it out and never wiped. Never really needed mana breaks. Absolutely kicked butt.

I took a shadow priest through Hell fire ramparts, our only healer, and we wiped constantly until it dawned on us, and her, that she couldn't do damage, us MC, AND heal. Without an off healer, or dedicated healer, they can't thrive in a 5 man unless it's a cohesive unit that won't aggro and will play nicely.

As far as raids...DNT is requesting a shadow priest...so I'd say they have their place, wouldn't you? And yes, those on the cusp of content can help determine usefulness of classes. Of course you can be resourceful, too. I did a few outland dungeon runs with 2 warriors, 2 shamans, and a rogue. All melee. I also did Hellfire Blood Furnace with 2 warriors (1 me), 2 priests and a warlock. We didn't have a tank, as both priests were more holy/disc than shadow. So in effect, we tanks/warriors acted as the minions/demons of the priests and went dps nuts. We could MC crowds, heal, off heal, 2 rezzes, had another demon, and pretty strong "felguards". I like the challenge of using weird groups, b/c it's something different.

Rather than state why they can't be used...find ways to USE them...shadow priests bring another element to the game that designers built into it. Arcane was never that common for mages, but I"m sure you'd find usefulness as an Arcane mage with Pyro in Dungeons/Raids.

And sometimes, it's the NEW group that actually owns, rather than the traditional group. The times I've flown through dungeons are, in fact, when we didn't have the typical group.

Ilzien, level 63 warrior, Dark Iron, Horde

[Astayanax]

Anyone who thinks shadow priests are a 'bad', 'useless' class in BC clearly hasn't grouped with a decent one since BC. Handsdown shadow priest is the best hybrid class and for most part a much have in any raid group.

Their ultility is untouchable, their syngery is fairly insane, they can do quite a bit of damage and if needed, backup heal. Really and truly, only a feral druid comes close but a) they need to walk around with 3 - 4 sets of gear and b) they can't switch their roles as effectively as a shadow priest can in a fight.

The nerfs they had experienced recently just proved how good the class was because they were dominating most specs of other similiar classes, just like how feral druids were dominating the tanking game (although i disagree with the feral nerfs).

[Nitsujcm]

I am going to start raiding again within the next week or so.

We have 3 preists - one heavy Disc with some holy - other two are (including me) 7/0/54.

We have two healadins and a resto druid. I'll let ya know how it goes.

[Durtag]

Anyone who has actually done a raid beyond Kara understands the usefulness of 1-2 Shadow Priests. You can sit here and mouth off about weak DPS and aggro problems or you can actually play the game and understand that their utility as a mana battery far out weighs any gain in DPS from taking another class.

Take a good hard look at every screen shot from any progression guild's website, almost all of them are fielding at least 1 shadow priest. Whoever said learn2consumable clearly hasn't had the pleasure of raiding Serpentshrine. A mage chaining pots, evoc and gems will still have mana problems if they try to maintain max DPS far before the boss dies. Every raid group should have at least 1 shadow priest to help mage mana and resto shamans to fill in the cracks.

[Regrets]

Shadow priests are awesome in TBC, they r both good PvPerS & PvErs I would say.. As a raid leader I always love to have at least 1-2 shadow priests in raid

[bloodyjudas]

May be off topic as i don't raid, but the Shadow Priests from our guild have been excellent in all our BC runs.

Their damage has been good, usually about 10% less than the mages and rogues. We've had no agro trouble at all, and our locks love them. And the ability to backup heal has been top notch.

We often use druids as main healer, so the ability to res is a minor bonus to them, but huge to the rest of us.

[moopy]

Thing is, shadow priests are bound to be nerfed yet again soon. Just try running with a pally healing and a shadow specced priest dpssing with VE and VT up, and you'll see that it's just not meant to be like that. Even though they reduced the aggro mitigation of facemelters recently, it's still a far too overpowered combo.

I say enjoy it while it lasts, it's hellish powerful. However, keep an open mind and be ready with a plan B. It's standard blizzard procedure- let an off-spec be neglected for ages (the lot of facemelters in PvE pre-2.0), then way overbuff them. All that's missing is the over-nerf. Just ask feral druids about that game.

[Lothoran]

Whoever said learn2consumable clearly hasn't had the pleasure of raiding Serpentshrine. A mage chaining pots, evoc and gems will still have mana problems if they try to maintain max DPS far before the boss dies. Every raid group should have at least 1 shadow priest to help mage mana and resto shamans to fill in the cracks.

You misread that post my friend. I was reffering to the people that were complaining about shadowpriests running out of mana, not the mages. True though, I haven't been to Serpentshrine yet, we're still working on Gruul. I am all for shadowpriests.

[CorinthianSC]

A shadow Priest is an integral part of any raid IMO. They bring so much to the table, it's almost criminal.