Who do you leave behind?

[Mallstrop]

I'm just doing this for fun, please don't take it too seriously.

With the 25 man instances soon aproaching raids are going to have to change.

25 people spread over 9 classes, if only it was 27 people then you could take along 3 of each class, since it isn't who will you leave behind?

What classes will only give 2 raid spots?

Before we start, I'm not talking special circumstances since we don't know the raid instances or bosses yet.

[Icefrost]

Considering that its not uncommon to have 4 or more of a same class in a 20-man, its likely that in the 25-mans, some classes won't get a spot at all. Who it is probably depends on the special circumstances you mentioned, but since we will not discuss them due to the reasons mentioned, this is all I have to say.

[Mallstrop]

You'd really miss out on a full class?

Every class has it's uses.

At the moment we take along 2 of each class atleast, since we have plenty of people we don't tend to take less than that. We spread the 4 remaining slots by what we need and who ever the officers like the most. Generally that's an extra warrior since they're allways usefull and an extra warlock for Moam.

Personally, the first thing to go would be a hunter, they aren't very versatile and as DPS goes, there's much better choices.

Second choice is harder but I'd go with a priest since druids can heal and even switch in to tank when needed.

[Naolin]

myself so I can get DKP for being backup :p

[Twoflower]

only one hunter for tranq shot. only the minimum warlocks. More hybrids ( pala / druid )

[Dutchgrass]

only one hunter for tranq shot. only the minimum warlocks. More hybrids ( pala / druid )

With the changes to spell damage calculations dps and the 40 debuff limit, Warlocks will significantly improve their dps. No longer will there be a minimum of Warlocks purely based on the 3 common curses.

As for instancing, I'd say you bring the essential classes for an encounter, and fill up the remaining spots with whoever is online and wants to come. Leaving people out purely based on class is something I try to avoid at all times.

[Oatmealsmurf]

I think it's impossible to say until we all actually get a good idea of the utility of new class abilities and how they work in the new instances. My first instinct would be Hunters but then what if they build fights where a lot of kiting is involved. Warlocks are also at the top of the list but the main thing holding back locks is the lack of threat reduction and limited debuff slots. Both of those issues have been addressed. And in long fights it might be better to take locks over mages since locks can tap their mana back and bandage.

[mesonm]

You are making this too hard...

First come, first served, so long as the raid will succeed.

[bwirum]

You are making this too hard...

First come, first served, so long as the raid will succeed.

Mmmmmm.. good call.

[rgirty]

Anyone who ninja loots in secret.

[bwirum]

Anyone who ninja loots in secret.

And how do you suggest I should be able to ninja loot if you don't bring me?

[Oatmealsmurf]

Good thing I ninja loot in full public view. I look forward to an invite to your raids Rgirty and I pledge to always ninja loot in a straighforward, open and moral fashion.

[rgirty]

I shouldn't have posted that, it was against my better judgment. I apologize to the thread for doing it. It was just some statements the OP had made in an earlier thread and was wrong of me to post it here.

- I truly am sorry, I apologize.

[mesonm]

I shouldn't have posted that, it was against my better judgment. I apologize to the thread for doing it. It was just some statements the OP had made in an earlier thread and was wrong of me to post it here.

- I truly am sorry, I apologize.

50 lashes from a succubus for you!

[Dobablo]

Lots of non-traditional raiding specs now have big raid boosts.

Imp leader of the pack for feral druids heals their groups.
Ferocious Inpiration for Beast Master huners
Expose Weakness for Survival hunters
Sanctified Crusader for Retribution Paladins
Vampiric Touch and Misery for shadow priests.
Unleashed Rage for Enhancement Shaman
Totem of Wrath for elemental Shaman
Malediction for affliction warlocks

It looks as though a perfectly balanced raid will be someone from each class.

[Hunniedew]

Take the people who sign up before hand and show up. Normally the diversification for our guild is already there and we never have to weed anyone out like you are describing.

Of course you could always give first rights to dependable people that dont suck.

[Deathmiester]

Take whoever signs up, but leave the classes balanced. You dont want a warlock leaving because theres another 4:/ we had them issues lots of times in our guild and thankfully they've been resolved:)

[Wasabee]

From what I've heard instances are going to be tailored around the need of each class and it's unique abilities. (So 2 of each and fill out the rest sounds best.)

In my other post I was looking for possible gllom and doom. This post address taking a 40 man raid focused guild and making it into 25 man. What happens to the other 15. (Or for that thought...they other 10 people that can't get into the 40 man...)

[det]

I'm just doing this for fun, please don't take it too seriously.

With the 25 man instances soon aproaching raids are going to have to change.

25 people spread over 9 classes, if only it was 27 people then you could take along 3 of each class, since it isn't who will you leave behind?

What classes will only give 2 raid spots?

Before we start, I'm not talking special circumstances since we don't know the raid instances or bosses yet.

2 shamans
2 paladins
3 from every other class

-------------

25 players

[mesonm]

2 shamans
2 paladins
3 from every other class

-------------

25 players


20 druids...5 priests...

25 players

[det]

hum?.........................

[Linch]

25 Priests.




But I think most people have missed that there will be another class that will be going to raid with your side in the not to distant future.

[Imraath]

Anyone who lists hunter as a class they'd leave out! :grin:

[Dutchgrass]

Malediction for affliction warlocks

Don't expect many Affliction Warlocks to get this, it's a rather poor return for 3 talent points.

[inkmva]

20 druids...5 priests...

25 players

Funny part is, that wouldnt just work but it would work well if everyone had the right spec.

Could do it with ust 25 druids as well.

[det]

Meh..unless I've lost it? Isn't this about what class you leave out or give only 2 spots in the 25 man raids?

Are you seriously trying to tell me you will leave every class out and take 25 druids? As in: "Look at me, I never raided?" Same with the "5 druid, 20 priests" or "Leave hunters out" suggestion.

Do you already know that the lv 70 raid can be tanked by clothies and enrages don't happen?

Or are you just talking out of your...place where the sun never shines?

[Mallstrop]

I was thinking of putting in a long description of what I think each class would bring to a raid and which could be done with out, but my computer ate it.

Instead I'll go with a rather cynical look at each class.

Warlocks
If their curses didn't add so much damage to every one else’s attacks they'd be the first to leave. I'd even consider ditching CoS and a warlock along with it. Assuming they're not helping a shadow priest. They may complain about not having CoS, but that's the way it goes. If I wanted them for their damage I'd take another mage.

Paladins
There are classes that benefit from 3 paladin buffs (Kings, Salvation, Wisdom on casters) so I'd probably stick to 3. But they would be healing :) Just because blizz says palies should be able to tank and DPS, why not let a none hybrid do it even better?

Hunters
Not sure how much of a buff their damage gets in TBC but I'd take a rogue or mage ahead of them any day. The reason I'd take 2 along is for tranq shot and pulling.

Mages
Water's always useful, so is the extra Intellect for the healers. Only joking, I quite like mages. The kings of AOE but also, their single target DPS doesn't let them down. It's also nice to get the various schools of magic for those resistance fights, we've seen them all through BWL and a few more beyond there, I imagine we'll see them again.

Rogues
I'd like to go with the "All rogues are little children" stereo type but in reality, only 75% of rogues are childish little gits. If you can get a collection from the 25% of good rogues then your raid's damage is really going to shoot up.

Priests
I don’t dislike priests at all, they’re great healers, but when I have a choice of priests, shamans, Paladin and druids I’d probably take along some hybrids, they offer more versatility to the raid than priests.

Shaman
Like paladins that can only buff 1 group. The savior of Shamans is that they can only buff 1 group, you probably want 1 along to buff your tank group, maybe another for your healing group and personally, I’d take a spare one along for the group with my rogues. I’m alliance so I’ve not really seen shamans in action though.

Warrior
Hopefully no other class will become so good that warriors are no longer tanks, but with all the buffs to druids and palies, who knows what’ll happen. Along with rogues, I see warriors as the most childish class, they became FOTM for a while, now every one has a 60 warrior fighting for a spot in the raid group. Unlike rogues though you need a bit of skill to play a warrior well. There’s nothing worse for me than a warrior turning up to my raid group saying “I’m DPS . . . But I’ll get some tanking gear and tank if needed”

Druid
Stacking HoTs come in with TBC, with 2 (or more?) HoTs per druid then the healing is going to be amazing, they might even remove the need for any other healing class. Druids are always nice to take along, who knows when you might need a bear to tank? I’m not going to be nasty to druids since there’s nothing harsh I can say.

25 man is a great challenge, one thing it has done is taken away the room for strange talent specs and out of position players such as DPS druids and priests and tanking paladins or even druids.

Can’t you tell that I have nothing else to do now I’ve given my work in for this week?

[det]

I so can see the point about the warlocks and that scares me a bit...I know a raidgroup on our server who only takes 3 warlocks to Naxx.

On the other hand: Imp stamina from Bloodpact, Crazy resists and endurance, Healthstones, Soulstones, Curses, Banish and not least fire AoE make us quiet versatile.

The fact that I usually also see 3 dead rogues for every dead warlock speaks for itself ^^

[Loriel]

My theorycraft approach would be 2 Hunters, 2 Shaman and 3 of everything else.

In reality, though, most guilds will probably create signups based on 3 of each class - and then bring the 25 first people that sign up, assuming you have at least 3 Warriors or 3 Priests (or whatever minimum requirements are set). This will ofc also be modified by whatever instance you're planning on raiding, as some classes could be (by design) more in demand for some encounters. Time will tell.

And finally, it will be some time before there are any lvl 70 Horde Paladins / Alliance Shaman, so the initial template will probably be 3 of each class + 1 wild card spot.

[mesonm]

Funny part is, that wouldnt just work but it would work well if everyone had the right spec.

Could do it with ust 25 druids as well.


heh...would be fun...

[Oatmealsmurf]

Plus locks are getting a shadow based AOE with the expansion. In theory with the threat reduction Locks are getting, scaling pets, increased debuff slots and new talents I think the opinions on Locks vs. Mages might change slightly by the time people get to lvl 70. I have both a lock and a mage and I 'm far more excited about what my lock will be able to do come January. The whole reason people tend to limit locks in Naxx is due to aggro problems that prevent them from keeping up in DPS with mages. With additional debuff slots and soul shatter they should be right up there.

In my initial post I also forgot about the misdirection talent that hunters are going to get. That is a really nice raid utility so perhaps I was a bit hasty in saying hunters would be first to mind. The two shammys/pallys suggestion makes sense.

[Hayek]

You're missing out the obvious answer: pallies on horde, and shaman on Alliance.

Both of these combos will start at level 1, while the rest starts at 60. Apart from the occasional powergrinder, the existing 60s will be able to form a raidgroup well before the alliance shamans/horde paladins even ding 60, they have at least twice as much leveling to do (even if the required /played time for 1-60 and 60-70 should be equal, it won't be. A level 60 in tier 2 gear will do 60-65 a lot faster than someone in greens at level 60, and the tier 2 person may also get his tier 3 as naxx becomes easier to farm.)

This effect will not necessarily end when the new shammies/pallies get to 70; by then they will be behind in terms of level 70 gear. It may easily take half a year before it evens out for a lot of guilds.

The only way Blizz can prevent this is by designing encounters that specifically require shamans and paladins, but the whining by guilds who don't have them (yet) would be deafening, and rightly so if it concerns entry level raidinstances at 70.

[Antiochous]

I am going to have to disagree. As I have been running around the beta I have seen more then a couple lvl 64+ BE paladins. I suspect that it will take a little more then a month for us to start seeing a decent number of paladins on the horde that are 60+. It really does not take that long to lvl. I am leveling up a druid at this time and I am actually surprised at how fast it is going compared to how long I thought it took lvling my shaman/priest/mage. Added on to the fact that there are going to be some crazy people that just lvl like madmen when it comes out and the fact that new race + previously unavailable class = tons of people rolling BE paladins, and I bet 2 months out you will not even be able to tell that those classes started off with a longer grind.

[rgirty]

People will have lvl 60 be pallys/DR shamans quickly. It will be like a contest.

[Mallstrop]

Even if we're not going to see level 70 shaman/paladins for ages, sooner or later they're going to catch up, maybe even in the time that most guilds are getting gear suitible to do the level 70 raids.

1 expansion a year means we're probably stuck with 25 man instances for a while. My question, worded more precisly should have been, once every thing has settled down back to normal, what will your raid make up be?

[zkajan]

-people who aoe in twin emps room
-rogues that pull agro on ouro
-people who chain other people on c'thun
-people who run into the red beam on c'thun
-people who can't make the thadius jump
-people who blow up the raid on thadius
-for that matter, people who blow up the raid back in MC days lol
-people who show up for loatheb with no shadow pots
-people who can't dance on heigan
-people who shadowflame the raid
-people who "accidently" get their account hacked ever few months "mysteriosly"
-ninjalogoffers
-that one rogue that is *always* last on dmg despite having some of the best gear
-palydps(lol)adins

[Naedea]

AFKers ---> The Boot[tm]

[mesonm]

Meh..unless I've lost it? Isn't this about what class you leave out or give only 2 spots in the 25 man raids?


What???? You want serious???

Ok, I'll put on my serious hat...

Why does the question have to assume a raid with two or three of all classes?

Why do you imply a need to be formal, telling the ten others that showed up early they can't go because the prescribed guys [only] got here [a few min late]?

You bring who shows up first, making sure the raid will be successful. If that means that today I take four warlocks and one druid, with three priests and others, so be it...

If tomorrow none of the locks show up, I won't delay the raid because of some predetermined formula that some seem to want to force here...I'll take who I have, so long as the raid will be successful.

[Mallstrop]

You bring who shows up first, making sure the raid will be successful. If that means that today I take four warlocks and one druid, with three priests and others, so be it...

You don't use a sign up system?

For almost all groups I've raided with, you sign up for raids, form there the class leaders decide who they use to fill their class spots.

If some one isn't there on time then 10 mins after the raid is set to start we'll try and replace them but with the same class if possible. If we can't manage that we will type, a healer to replace a druid or a DPS to replace a mage. Assuming we have enough of the starting class to do special jobs.