Mandokir vs Arlokk, Thekal, Hakkar

[eXeel]

We're a casual, national guild doing ZG. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about what of these bosses are the hardest and why:
Bloodlord Mandokir, High Priestess Arlokk, High Priest Thekal, Hakkar the Soulflayer.

MANDOKIR
My personal thoughts or feelings are (based on some experiences, but also mindplay) that Mandokir hits the hardest without 380, 400 or 420 defense on MT. Hakkar might be up there or higher, I wouldn't know.
He encounter is pretty simple. Have proper geared MT, enough healing, good dps and disciplin for the watching. That's it.
Almost purely about strength.

ARLOKK
More demanding in tactics, since you have 40 adds to CC. When that is done properly, the boss is pretty weak in strength and health. CC the adds, own the encounter.

THEKAL
A little mix of Mandokir and Arlokk. You need to control the two guards, take care of the few tiger adds once in a while plus position and take down the three in an organized fascion. I haven't heard about high spike damage from Thekal, but I haven't tried it myself either.
This encounter might be doable with just disciplin and tactics, while your gear doesn't have to be at par with Mandokir level.

HAKKAR
Might hit like Mandokir, might not. Really don't know. But again I think it is a mix of proper tactics, disciplin and gear, naturally. A mix of physical and tactical/disciplinal strength.

Conclusion:
We're taking down Snake and Bat every time. When we feel like it, Spider is taken down too, if we have the dps. Panter is a new one for us, but I feel like he is manageable to learn and farm, since not so much reliant on gear, as of tactics and performance. Thekal we haven't touched, but will after we get to learn Panter more.
Mandokir is our menace. We've downed him three times or so. Out of probably six to seven times tried. That is not a good statistic. What we lose to is rarely disciplin problems with Watching. It is more spike damage to MT (Me) and when he randomly charges raid and stays up there to cleave clothies.

I have 354 defense, I believe. I've gotten most of the defense gear I can, without investing days and weeks of farming instances. ZG itself has very little defense gear. Even the Vindicator set has only 4 +def and that is on the chest! There are a chance of blue ring from Arlokk, which I got last time. But the other part of that is from Mandokir! Who I need it to down, hehe.
All in all my problem is that it really feels Defense is very important on Mandokir, though nothing in ZG up to him prepares you gear-wise.

LEAVE MANDOKIR BEHIND?
I brainstormed with my guild and came up with the fact that maybe Mandokir is just too much of a mouthful for us as it is. Maybe just take Snake, Bat, Spider, Panter and Tiger, then go for Hakkar and maybe Jindo, and save Mandokir until we have really geared up. But then it's time for AQ20 and BC, so then maybe it is too late?

Please write down the strength comparrison of your own, between these four bosses and add your suggestion to our guild situation. Thank you... :)

[Krald]

Mandokir has some very good loot, he's worth trying to perfect. I've had him go down with just like 15 people without any real hiccups, without amazing gear either (probably better than yours though).

So, I think it's worth the effort, and when you perfect it.. he's just easy. Although, maybe it might be harder without paladins if you're horde (paladins are nice for small top-up heals and the buffs don't hurt either).

As for tanking,Your def does sound kinda low, but another useful thing is to just have lots of +sta enchants and librams on good pieces of armour so you have more of a cushion.

Also, how you tackle mandokir can effect success too, if you kill the raptor first the tank needs to be ready to make use of the likes of shield wall and last stand to survive the duration (but not both abilities at once, one after the other is best). Shield block spam apparently can help against crushing blows too. If you kept raptor alive it'd be quite different (may want would need rotating tanks for that to avoid sunder stacking on the tanks reducing armour to like 0).

Anyway, not much of ZG is really that hard, it just takes time to adjust and some okayish blue gear from instances helps too.

[Leonavice]

Bloodlord is easy provided your raid pays attention to his watching, and stop dps when he charges so that MT can regain aggro. We often set a pally at a point furthest away from the raid so that he is the target BL charges towards.

I hate Thekal. The problem with him is because of his 2nd phase AOE as well as the tiger adds later on. If your raid doesn't work together to kill the MA's target of the Zulian guardians, the tiger adds end up eating the clothies. That and Thekal's AOE means that most of the time you are staring at some foliage on your screen because he knocks you into some obscure corner of the map.

Arlokk is easy. Mass AOE fear works wonders in here.

[Jerkey]

Bug bloodlord :smiley:.
Almost every pug nowadays does it, on my guild runs we do him the conventional method (though our tank has somewhere in the region of 380 defense, so it's no big deal).

Have your tank pull the speaker (and kill him obviously), while everybody but the him and one helpful healer run up the stairs. On the way up you should see a platform to the left. Have absolutely everyone jump on the platform, including meelee dps (they'll be sitting it out this fight). When everyone is on the platform, the raptor will get healer aggro, and stay in evade mode for the rest of the fight. Have your tank with bloodlord in front of the ramp on the ground in range of dps and heals. Make sure he is in LOS. The helpful healer can run up to the ramp when there's at least one other person who will cover for him while he gets up there.

From here on just dps him down, keep heals on the tank, and follow the standard procedure as far as being watched goes. If you do get aggro from BL, he will teleport you down next to him. Use an aggro reducing ability, or wait for your tank to get aggro if you don't have one, and run back up to the platform.

The healer isn't necessary most of the time, but occassionaly people don't get up the stairs fast enough and the tank ends up dying resulting in an instant wipe if another warrior can't jump in to help. Using this method you should have no worries killing bloodlord with ease.

Enjoy the loot!

EDIT: Inserting some info about Thekal- my least favourite boss, and in my opinion the toughest one too (Hakkar is easier IMHO).

For Thekal you will need 3 tanks. Your main tank will be on the priest himself, and another two OTs will be tanking his two zealots. You will also need one rogue on zealot Zath.

There are many variations on this fight, but here is the one my guild uses:

The guys are pulled, the tanks take their targets and the initial two tigers are dealt with. The tanks must separate the zealots and Thekal. They must be very far apart to avoid them healing each other. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.

Then, begin dpsing down the targets. We begin with Zath, getting him down to... I believe 25ish percent. Zath is a bit annoying because occassionally he will CC the tank on him and move on to wreaking havoc on the raid. When this happens the rogue on him will work his magic, stunlocking him until the tank is out of the CC. Next, is Thekal, I believe he goes down to about 20%, and finally Lor'khan who is to 20% as well if I remember correctly. Once Lor'khan hits 20%, have all your tanks bring them together and AOE them down hard and fast. If they don't all die within a certain space of time, they will begin ressurecting each other, meaning you will have to reset the encounter.

Once they are all dead, have everybody move up to the little area where outside of the shack Thekal and his cronies start at. Thekal will then ressurect himself and turn into Tony the Tiger. He will hit hard, and your healers will need to be on their toes. The most important thing at this phase is to kill the tigers that will spawn AS SOON AS THEY SPAWN. If they aren't killed, they will make a mince out of your healers.

An alternative method to my one is to have a rogue on Lor'khan (who is the healer I believe) kicking her heals along with the shield bashing warrior. I dislike this tactic because it leaves room for human error, however it is up to you.

Again, good luck, and enjoy your loot :smiley: .

[Tiddly]

bloodlord has always been one of our easiest encounters.

If he runs into the clothies and cleaves them it because the person didn't stop everything when he whispers them hes watching. As longs as the person whispered hits escape to stop everything it should be ok.

We have 2 tanks on the raptor switching when they have 4 or 5 debuffs and the rest just DPS'ing the hell out of mandokir..

Make sure nobody rez's when the spirit comes over to them unless its the MT and he should go down easy.. then all just go kill the raptor and collect the loot

[wesje]

All the bosses are ez in ZG. All the bosses can also wipe u tho.

Arlokk if ur positioning is bad or u get unlucky cleave crit popups of the boss
Thekal if the rogue blinds and goes into a frenzy, or when u get unlucky stuns
Hakkar if u are just plain dumb, best thing about hakkar is that u can reset him in 5 seconds
Most problematic boss i allways found to be Jindo the hacker, get the totems down fast doesnt allways appeal to every dpser :)

Bloodlord = lootlord , ez as

[Dallana]

My personal thoughts on these bosses are...

Mandokir

Yes his loot is nice, but Hakkar's is nicer. If he's giving you problems then I would totally advise skipping him to down a boss that you don't have on farm yet - the trash takes longer to clear than for any other boss and that's time better spent elsewhere. Try and get all 5 aspects down and have a go at Hakkar. Once you are down with the encounter it becomes a lot easier. Amplify Magic can work wonders on the MT as well - it'll increase the effect of healing and make it easier to keep you up. I personally don't really like this encounter as the trash before him takes longer to clear than the trash before the other bosses. However once you have the encounter down it's dead easy.

However I do think you are overestimating how hard he hits. Thekal in Phase 2 hits harder as does Hakkar. In all honesty you'll have problems with both if you're having trouble with Mandokir.

Thekal

This is a relatively simple fight in phase 1. DPS them down to low health and finish them with AOE. In Phase 2 it gets a little more tricky. He hits hard and does the AOE knockback so tanks will need to pick him back up quick - that's they key to this fight.

Arlokk

One of my favourite fights! I cage tank this and it's a gratifying job. Keep the panthers under control with Demo Shout and it's just a case of DPS'ing Arlokk down in between vanishes. She doesn't hit that hard so maybe divert a Healer to DPS instead - Also get your healers to DOT. However tanks do need to get used to this job. It aint easy to begin but good cage tanks make the encounter so much easier.

Hakkar

I don't agree with people who say he's easy. I personally think he's tougher than all the other bosses in ZG, with the possible exception of Jin'do. He hits hard and you're going to have to deal with him for 8-10 minutes when you first try. Healing Rotation is a must as is downranking. Also managing healing whilst getting the poison is key as well. From time to time we do lose a tank to this and our guys are in T1/T2. The keys to this fight are obviously the poison every minute and a half, and keeping the tanks up. You'll find that he hits harder than anything else in ZG and that in itself can create problems if your gear isn't up to scratch.

Other stuff

Don't rely on ZG for tanking drops. There are only really a few drops that are good for Tanks and the ZG set itself is more orientated toward offtanking and DPS'ing - it's a very good hybrid set. Instead I suggest you work on your gear in the 5/10 man instances. There is some stuff that's easy to get (quests, AH etc.) like the Valor Bracers & Belt, Ornate Adamantium Breastplate, Medallion of Grand Marshall Morris, Stonegrip Gauntlets etc. that is perfect for tanking ZG and it shouldn't be too hard to get to 380 or so defence with a nice amount of Stamina. If all else fails, take the plunge and get some of the Enchanted Thorium pieces made. The Legs and Head are probably the best tanking items you can get outside of a Raid.

[eXeel]

Here it is, my gear:

HEAD: Gyth's Skull of Nature (20 sta, 9 def)
NECK: Strength of Mugamba (7 str, 6 agi, 10 sta, 4 def) // Stormpikes Soldier's Pendant (15 sta, 18 ap)
SHOULDER: Stockade Pauldrons (20 sta, 10 def)
BACK: Stormpike Soldier's Cloak (11 sta, 24 ap)
CHEST: Ornate Adamantium Breastplate (22 sta, 10 def)
WRIST: Bracers of Heroism (9 str, 5 agi, 14 sta, 3 def)
HAND: Stonegrip Gauntlets (9 str, 14 sta, 10 def)
WAIST: Belt of Heroism (15 str, 9 agi, 12 sta, 7 def)
LEG: Warmaster Legguards (13 str, 15 sta, 2% dodge)
FEET: Boots of Valor (8 str, 4 agi, 20 sta)
RING: Overlord's Onyx Band (11 sta, 2% block, 1% dodge) // Naglering (50 armor, 10 sta, 5 def) // Don Julio's Band (11 sta, 1% crit, 1% hit, 16 ap)
TRINKET: Royal Seal of the Eldre'Thalas (10 fire res, 200 armor) // Stormpike Insignia Rank 6 (8hp/5, 2% dodge) // Blackhand's Breadth (2% crit)
WEAPON: The Lobotomizer (47.2 dps, 15 agi enchant)
SHIELD: The Immovable Object (44 block, 15 sta, 27 extra block) // Drakonian Deflector (40 block, 7 sta, 10 def)

TOTAL: 378 defense, 4459 health, 7255 armor unbuffed. This is with the defense gear, though the AV shield gives me 400 more armor.

I'm shopping for Enhanted Thorium Leggings, which are 20 str, 21 sta, 8 def. Then I can't really do more.
I bought the Stockade Pauldrons yesterday and I respecced to get the +10 def from talents. I went from 354 to 378 (386 with the leggings). But I lose a lot of dodge and some other things for that defense, not even sure if it is worth it...

Now you know my (The MT) gear. I cannot do more with gear, as there are no better drops below ZG level. And that Mandokir and Hakkar and Jindo drop more def gear doesn't help me in my position, since those are the ones we can't down, though we haven't tried Jindo :)

[Krald]

Your health seems really low? you got all the enchants you can?. So like 100 hp chest, 9 sta bracer, 100 hp legs (libram), 100 hp head (libram). Think you can get 7 sta shield too. 7 agi on gloves don't hurt either for some dodge (no sta there). Oh.. and 7 sta boots works too. You could also maybe go for a different 1 hander, personally I don't mind losing dps or using a slower weapon to get some stamina/armour or maybe dodge.

Anyway, if you pump up your stamina some more, your healers will have less of a problem dealing with burst damage.

Oh, and the cape from DM north tribute would be a large upgrade too.

[Leonavice]

Mandokir is the raid's only source of Primal Hakkari Idol if the guild can't take on Jindo yet. Hence Mandokir is still a good boss to kill if you have the time. Anyway the extra ZG rep doesn't hurt.

[Steamboat]

My guild is farming all of ZG, including the fish boss and the edge of madness rotation. It took us a while to learn them all, but we're up to 5 straight ZG runs without a wipe.

Out of all the bosses, Thekal is the one that gives us the hardest time.

For Mandokir we stand our ranged in a line (shoulder to shoulder) and put a Paladin behind that line so he's the one that gets charged. We offtank the Raptor and kill Mandokir first. It works very smoothly.

On Arlokk we have Paladins tank the panthers with consecration and heal themselves, with a warrior ready to pickup loose ones. It works well except on nights when we only have 16 or 17 because it's hard to have enough DPS to get her down within 2 vanishes.

Even Jin'Do isn't trouble anymore. We completely ignore shades and assign 2 rogues to just kill totems. Everyone else does DPS as hard as they can, except 1 mage assigned to the skellies. It's a fun fight.

But Thekal, I don't even know if I should mention our strategy because it barely works. We always end up barely killing him at the last second with only 5 or 6 people still alive.

Hakkar is very easy or very hard depending on how many healers showed up that night.

[Mallstrop]

Gear wise:


NECK: Get "medalion of grand marshal morris" from the AH, very cheap and usefull
BACK: Get the Sergeant cape (17 stamina) for now
RING: Get Band of Resolution from the AD hand in quests.
SHIELD: Drakonian Deflector (40 block, 7 sta, 10 def) seems best

Get enchants and that will give you the same gear I had when I first tanked Hakkar, Enchants are pretty cheap but add a ton to your health. Even if you don't get the best enchant for each bit of gear.

As for the easiest boss:
Go get Mandokir, he's pretty simple, Stick your best tank on Mandokir and then stick 2 spare tanks on the raptor to swap agro when the sunders build up. Kill Mandokir first, as long as people learn to stop what they're doing when they're watched, it should be a pretty simple fight.

Thekal gives us a bit more trouble but we're probably not concentrating as much as we should these days. Once you get the first phase worked out it's pretty simple from then, aslong as you didn't lose too many. Remember that you can reset by running out of the area.

Arlokk seems to be the most touble for us every week, the panthers never stick in the pen for some reason and end up mugging the marked target.

Hakkar is pretty simple once you get it orginized.

Jindo is a bit more of a challenge, especially if the shades get out of control, it can happen when the wrong people get cursed, 1 warlock can dot up the whole set and kill them all in 1 go.

[Malentra]

But Thekal, I don't even know if I should mention our strategy because it barely works. We always end up barely killing him at the last second with only 5 or 6 people still alive.

Whenever I lead a Thekal fight, we seem to kill him no prob (though that is rare these days, I like to take a back seat in raids).

The strat I use depends on the group, but generally:

Group 1 -> Thekal: Tank, Warlock, Shaman in group. Assigned 3 healers, incl. a priest to shield on mortal strike. Thekal can silence so generally I assign 3 healers to minimize chance of all healers being silenced.

Group 2 -> Zath: Tank, Rogue, Shaman, assigned 2 healers (incl. the Shaman) Rogue and Shaman are there to build up threat over healers so that if Zath Blinds/Gouges, he goes to the rogue or Shaman, not some random squishy.

Group 3 -> Lor'khan: Tank, Rogue, Shaman, assigned 2 healers (incl. the Shaman)
Shaman purges the Lightning shield. In alliance, you'd use a priest to dispel it. Greatly reduces damage taken by this tank. Rogue kicks when Lor'khan tries to heal.

In the case of a healer/shaman shortage, I make sure one shaman is in Lor'khan group for purges, and 1 healer assigned to each tank. The remaining healers keep all three tanks on player target, and switch as necessary.

Positioning,


.........|....Thekal....|.......
......./....................\........
...../........................\.......
.../............................\.......
Zath.......Clothies..........Lor'khan

We first dps Thekal to 30%, then Zath to 25%, then Lor'khan to 20%. Then we bring them together and kill them, either by AoE or by attacking the highest HP target. The rogue assigned to Lor'khan stays on him till he's dead.

When the three have been killed, your group goes left, with their backs to the crates there, while the tank positions Thekal against the right wall.


.........|..............T|.......
......./....................\........
...../........................\.......
.../............................\.......
Group..........................--------

We have druids innervate at this point on the low mana priests. Keep 2-3 healers as group healers (downranked heals are good enough), while the rest concentrate on the MT. When tigers spawn we have the MELEE kill them. Ranged stay on Thekal the whole time, and keep dots up as well. If your healing is weak, have melee/ranged bandage between tiger spawns/AoEs.

Works like charm.

[Steamboat]

Our strategy is very, very similar actually. We tank Lor'Khan around the corner so he's out of LOS of the other two, his heals aren't a problem. In fact phase 1 is no problem.

Our problem is phase two. We have all ranged against the wall, and although our tanks are normally stellar - it just seems like in phase 2 they can't get aggro and keep Thekal in one spot. For some reason it always seems that the concept of aggro doesn't exist for Thekal in phase 2, and he walks around randomly killing people while every healer seems to have at least 1 or 2 tigers attacking them. It's very chaotic.

[Echosnare]

Just started leading my guild through ZG and have actually found it easier to use half randoms because so many of my guild have trouble. But ZG is easier to recruit for with a smaller guild so we'll have to wait for the easier 40 mans

I led a run over the weekend and did spider bat snake with an attempt on tiger almost got him down 1st try followed by another wipe and people leaving. Guild run with guild leader in charge today did snake easily and wiped 3 times on bat! I'm a blue geared hunter using bloodseeker with no really special equipment and I was on top of the dmg by a long way. What I've found especialy is that the more DPS you have the better you seem to do in ZG - if we can get jeklik down to 50% after one wave of bats we're doing well

Mandokir is a joke if your guild cant discipline and especially in Europe we often have trouble due to languages on TS.

Does anyone have raid composition tips for alliance? - i generally try to have 4 mages, 3 warriors and 3 rogues with at least 2 preists which has served us well

[FrankieBegbie]

How we do Arlok:

A warlock stands about 20 yards from the back of the room (opposite the summoning gong) and all other casters stand on top of him - and I mean on top of him. The tanks stand slightly closer to the gong, ready to pick up Arlok and move him away from the caster group. Other melee stay with tanks at the start.

When the event starts and the panthers start to come, Mr. Warlock will attempt to aggro every last one of them with hellfire.

Warlock does nothing but hellfire, all encounter long. Priests keep shields up, and spam flash heals on the madly hellfiring/lifetapping 'lock - he's the key to CC'ing the panthers.

When Arlok is visible, tanks + melee DPS hammer on him hard - when he vanishes, help take down panthers. Rinse and repeat.

[kevagron]

Here it is, my gear:

HEAD: Gyth's Skull of Nature (20 sta, 9 def)
NECK: Strength of Mugamba (7 str, 6 agi, 10 sta, 4 def)
Back: Stormpikes Soldier's Pendant (15 sta, 18 ap)
SHOULDER: Stockade Pauldrons (20 sta, 10 def)
BACK: Stormpike Soldier's Cloak (11 sta, 24 ap)
CHEST: Ornate Adamantium Breastplate (22 sta, 10 def)
WRIST: Bracers of Heroism (9 str, 5 agi, 14 sta, 3 def)
HAND: Stonegrip Gauntlets (9 str, 14 sta, 10 def)
WAIST: Belt of Heroism (15 str, 9 agi, 12 sta, 7 def)
LEG: Warmaster Legguards (13 str, 15 sta, 2% dodge)
FEET: Boots of Valor (8 str, 4 agi, 20 sta)
RING: Overlord's Onyx Band (11 sta, 2% block, 1% dodge) // Naglering (50 armor, 10 sta, 5 def) // Don Julio's Band (11 sta, 1% crit, 1% hit, 16 ap)
TRINKET: Royal Seal of the Eldre'Thalas (10 fire res, 200 armor) // Stormpike Insignia Rank 6 (8hp/5, 2% dodge) // Blackhand's Breadth (2% crit)
WEAPON: The Lobotomizer (47.2 dps, 15 agi enchant)
SHIELD: The Immovable Object (44 block, 15 sta, 27 extra block) // Drakonian Deflector (40 block, 7 sta, 10 def)

TOTAL: 378 defense, 4459 health, 7255 armor unbuffed. This is with the defense gear, though the AV shield gives me 400 more armor.



Your health does seem really low - I'm running on very similar gear

Differences are

Enchanted Thorium Legs
Enchanted Thorium BP
Band of Resolution,
Bloodlord Defender
Belt of Might (my only Tier 1 piece)
Sergeants Cloak
Force of Will (trinket)
Necklace of GM Morris

and I sit at 5250 hps unbuffed, 7.2k armor and 412 def (with talents). Force of Will is a good tanking pendant from General in BRD. I can only assume you don't have the stam enchants.

As a rule, don't stack +dodge until you get at least +100 def. Def at >100 gets rid of the streaky bad runs due to crits, with high +dodge you can still get critted twice in a row then its gg. Also, just in case, make sure you are spamming shield block every time it lights up (one of my backup tanks didn't know that it hugely reduces the chance of crushing blows when this is active).

Also, Mandokir will MS you, your priests need to be ready to catch that and throw a PW:S on you quickly to help with healing.

[kevagron]

Our strategy is very, very similar actually. We tank Lor'Khan around the corner so he's out of LOS of the other two, his heals aren't a problem. In fact phase 1 is no problem.

Our problem is phase two. We have all ranged against the wall, and although our tanks are normally stellar - it just seems like in phase 2 they can't get aggro and keep Thekal in one spot. For some reason it always seems that the concept of aggro doesn't exist for Thekal in phase 2, and he walks around randomly killing people while every healer seems to have at least 1 or 2 tigers attacking them. It's very chaotic.

His knockback, which he does pretty often, seems to be an aggro wipe. I usually try to wall tank him so I don't get knocked back which seems to help a bit. There is another little trick but very difficult to do, before he does the knockback he waves his arms in the air, if you can time a jump right you won't be knocked back if you are in midair when he casts.