WSG frustrations (and immediately: the best tactic explained)

[snowieken]

Just came from a PuG WSG game and man, do I wish I had a boxing ball here. Rant and long read ahead.

First of all, the best tactic in most cases, if not all, is staying together, fighting as a group and owning the midfield. If you control the midfield, you are controlling the game. One person can stick around the flag, if only to see what way the enemy FC is running, but apart from that you usually don't need any more defense. Then, a group of two, three, or maximum four people can attempt to take the flag.

If you control the midfield, you can intercept enemy flag carriers very easy. If four people stick around their base, all it takes is a druid and a mage to grab the flag - mage frost nova's, druid runs away with the flag in travel form, defenders look stupid in their frost jacket. Four people are easily taken care of, that flag runner is long gone. While, sticking around in the midfield, you can intercept the enemy flag carrier en masse.

If you control the midfield, it is wide open for your flag carriers to run across. Have a small group try to get the enemy flag, while the others stick around (preferably at the entrance of the enemy's tunnel or their ramp) and see to it that the way is clear. When your flag carrier joins the group, run back to your base en masse, maybe intercepting any enemy flag carrier if there is one.

The usual "group 1 defends, group 2 attacks" has some merit, but usually no result. If the enemy uses the tactic to stay together and attack en masse, both groups get eaten alive and they completely control the game. People die, get scattered because they have to resurrect, and boom, it gets even worse.

Now, try to explain that to a PuG group. The BG leader kept saying "group 1 defend group 2 attack" while he made no effort at all to at least balance the two groups, one person insisted on calling me noobhead, and when they were finally listening a bit and formed a group of maybe five or six people in the midfield, they all ran after a mid-range level Shaman who took them to the right side of the field, while the enemy FC was happily prancing around on the left side. It was so sad it wasn't even funny anymore. Well, naturally, with that kind of group we lost, resulting in everyone calling me noob and noobhead - "now you see that tactic doesn't work noob". I couldn't even reply because the BG ended and they all left. So hence, I need a boxing ball, although ranting about it in my favorite forums helps as well, of course.

But here's something to enlighten you all, and spread the word: controlling the midfield is the best way to win in WSG. Spread the word, especially on Alliance side.

[Phelix]

Pre-mades.

You can't play PUG BGs if you wanna win.
Good luck have fun.

[MixiMan]

My experience with pug's is eaually bad, you try to tell them what to do if they wanna win. First time you do so, you get noobhead, nab, ubernoob.... i could go on but what's the point. Second time maybe 1 or 2 are listening but by that time the enemy FC ran past you, more often than not laughing :S.

Then after they capped, everybody is yelling and thinks they have THE tactic to win and all is lost in a matter of minutes.

I have put aside my desire to win and just run with the biggest group to get some honor, and then hope the BG doesnt last too long. I get my mark and move on.

Just thought i'd let you know that you are not alone oput there trying to win :P

Cheers

[Kyusoath]

pug'd all my way to 60, now we have organised pvp in as premades with guildies , i know them all , i know what gear they have i know what they can handle. i also play with the same people in the 29 bracket for fun (not really twinks but nice equip) . we never lose, except once to a horde premade, people who know eachother , organised and using vent cannot lose to a pug unless they fall asleep.

case in point , 1 priest and 3 rogues can totally dominate a bg , as we did when only 3 of us were online .

advice? get a team and get vent/teamspeak

[Cerberus]

Our premaids tactic (and all other horde premaids I know of) is to go get the flag with 10 people, no defense. You intercept your own flag on the way back. You get your own flag back 9 times out of 10 as the opposing team usually will have 4 people going for the flag, some in defense and some clueless people roaming about on their own ;)
What can mess up this strategy is the other team doing the exact same thing and meeting you midfield with 10 people and the flag. Makes for some truly epic battles tho :)

We ALLWAYS use the ramp and not the tunnel as you can avoid frost traps, rogues etc much easier and stay mounted almost all the way to the flag. No engaging the enemy before you have the flag is the golden rule. That's actually the hardest part if you want to try this tactic with a pug..

[kcma]

there are many ways to win WSG :) all offense is one. all defense is antoher, and mid-field works too.

the problem with all offense is... sometimes killing a couple pallys is just not that easy... and then you end up having to protect the flag you just stole and have to split out your team to get kill that pally.

prolly with all def is... slowwwww... you can prolly lose 3 games faster, unless you have an awesome rogue/druid/pally who can and will cap the flag.

and as for midfield, that works too... except a rogue sapping you taking the flag and now, you don't really know which way he went out :p or somethign like that. no plans are bullet proof, but any plan from a premade > pug :)

[sqchram]

Etiquette aside, is having 2 ranged camp a GY a viable strategy if only for small periods till the opposing team has to commit resources to get rid of them?

[cerimon]

I think the question for this thread is: What is the best plan to try with a PUG? I would say splitting up the groups evenly and putting 1 on O and 1 on D. A good portion of those people will be in midfield anyway, but I think maybe they feel more obligated to go after the flag if their ostensibly on "D." At least generally it seems to me that this wins the most.

The key I think is communicating where the other team's runner is going, and others being on top of that. That and taking out healers.

Any thoughts?

[Mincemaker]

I had given up hope for the PUGs, mainly because, well, even something as simple as a Zerg doesn't even look like one. Moving one or two at a time cannot be called a zerg.

And no healing is one, and no CC is another, and there's no fear bomb too.

If you enter WSG with a PUG, expect to lose.

[cerimon]

That doesn't really answer the question of what tactic to try... Particularly because lower brackets than 60 don't have as many premades.

[Magikhat]

I camp horde Graveyard with my shadow meld. It helps when you keep killing them at their own GY

[owlx]

When leading PUG's I try to get them all to group up outside of our base, in between our ramp and tunnel. This is what I consider a good compromise of full defense and mid-field control.

You keep your opponent out, so if a rogue happens to sneak through, he won't have support and can be taken down easy. As soon as you opponents get turned back by yoru big group, you can then send a force to get the flag. Depending on what your team is comprised of, or how many people they sent agianst you, will determine what you send to counter attack.

Generally move the rest of your force ouside their tunnel, ramp to support your flag carrying group. when they are clear, the main force goes back to it's original spot to cotrol the entrances to your base and get ready for the next wave.

[Oatmealsmurf]

Owl's strat is the one that tends to give the teams I've been on... Premade or otherwise the most trouble. You fan out in between the ramp and tunnel and greet the mounted opposition. You ostensibly get the first jump because they have to dismount... which gives you the advantage... and then even if they are "better" you should be able to take enough out that by the time you rez (much closer) you can intercept anyone who got through before they get out of your base.

You send 2 people after the flag... there are ideal combos and all but you can pull it off with a lot of different classes. All they need is to get out of the base and into midfield and then your superior numbers will give you the advantage.

Now if they keep half their team in the flag room you'll have a hard time getting out... but by the same token if they sent half their team after the flag you just decimated their O and sill have an advantage.

Yes camping graveyards is of course effective because people are looking to get back into the battle from a strategic standpoint and thus are usually taken completely by surprise... but it's a completely cowardly tactic and I won't do it. Shadowmelding and doing it is even worse (bet it's with a Hunter too). It might be counter productive to winning but when I notice people like Magic doing stuff like that in a BG ... I start hunting them down. Most people who do that kind of thing don't react well when you take a heads up fight to them.

[owlx]

You send 2 people after the flag... there are ideal combos and all but you can pull it off with a lot of different classes. All they need is to get out of the base and into midfield and then your superior numbers will give you the advantage.

Now if they keep half their team in the flag room you'll have a hard time getting out... but by the same token if they sent half their team after the flag you just decimated their O and sill have an advantage.




That's usually what dictates how many i send for the flag. If you opponent send eveyone at you then you can usually have a small 2-3 man group start across for the flag, as soon as you see the fight going your way. If your opponent only sends a couple out ther and they "turtle" inside their base........you will need to swarm them and worry about returning you flag on the way back.

Even if your opponent happens to get your flag out, you stay with a group that controls your entrance points and your small flag carrying group. The other group will be the hunt party to get back your flag.

Controlling what gets through to your base seems to be the most effective strategy for defense. If you can keep the support out of you base, it will be easy pickings when returing your flag.

[Grendo]

Agreed. Midfield control will always help - but, communication is still key. No point having 5-7 people fighting midfield if they arent watching for that flag carrier. I watched in several separate matches yesterday a flag carrier - not even a druid in some cases - walk right on past a group of alliance, simply because they had to kill some lone shaman. It was disturbing.

Ive given up trying to lead most PuGs to victory, though Ill still give pointers and suggestions. The fix to alliance BGs isnt going to come from a perfectly followed tactic everytime im in there, but from a gradual spreading of whats important: Communication, and teamwork.

Ive noticed my BG starting to at least communicate, if not still lose, in WSG and AB - communication being a rarity in past months. The only 'zomgl33t' comments on a large scale has been in AV during weekends - and even those are shut up quickly by the masses lately. It warms my soul. ;)

Fixing the world cant be done in a day, but gradually, building the foundation might someday help the masses. Hopefully by then, I will have found a new pvp group to run with since transferring.

As a paladin, I have a new love for causing distraction and havoc as well. Not only thru the normal kite 8 horde trying to kill me, and then bubbling at 0% and starting over...but also from pinpointing a groups druid(s) early on and making sure theyre movement will remain no faster than normal run speed thanks to Judgement of Justice (which cant be shifted out of). Being able to effectively stop a teams entire offense (and SO many teams seem to focus on their druid runner these days) makes me sleep like a baby. Its a shame more paladins dont realize the potential as they instantly judge crusader as druids and rogues sprint past them. (Its just as fun in AV given the number of mounted toons!)

[Oatmealsmurf]

I don't even try midfield control tactics in a PuG... because you can't count on people to heal or do anything but focus on the first enemy they see. Best method in a PuG is to have every one zerg the flag room and intercept enemy flag carrier on the way back because zergs are the one strategy that most people will be willng to be a part of.

[owlx]

zergs are the one strategy that most people will be willng to be a part of.


QFT

Although the tactics I use and my guild uses are so much better than zerging.........that is pretty much what pug's are all about. If you can keep everyone together in a pug you at least have a shot at winning. Sadly some people can't even do that. I try to get everyone to follow me to my defensive positiong outside the tunnel and ramp. If they can do that successfully, then I see if I can get them all to go with me to get the flag. I ask the rezers to catch up and help us once we outside the tunnel. Sometimes people listen, more often than not they don't. If my first attempts at organizaiton fail, I tell them to all stay together. If they can't do that..................they are on their own. I just stay on flag defense, or I stick with someone who looks like they know what they are doing and farm honor until the game ends.

That's why I pretty much roll in premades.

[mesonm]

If you control the midfield, you can intercept enemy flag carriers very easy. If four people stick around their base, all it takes is a druid and a mage to grab the flag - mage frost nova's, druid runs away with the flag in travel form,

Agreed...One addition...Have a priest near the tunnel entrance, so when the drood runs out, the priest can heal him, and follow the drood back home with the flag...

Droods run quite fast in travel form with legionnaire gear...

[mesonm]

all defense is antoher

Hmmmm....All guarding our flag is a winning strat?

When do we get their flag? (which is offense, under my definition...)

[Oatmealsmurf]

you basically frustrate the other team until the afk out LOL.... No one like a turtle... I'd never be part of that sort of strategy though. Overall it's a losing strategy though and banking on the other team to get impatient and send a full on zerg that way they probably still don't get out of or very far from the flag room but you can just send one person to grab the flag and especially if it's a druid it's hard to stop them from getting back... and once they are inside the base there is no way you stop them from capping. A patient team though will just continue to send 6-7 at a time and eventually someone will make it out of the base and start a relay with the flag. I used to break turtles all the time with my mage.. wait for a couple people to distract then ice barrier, free action pot... jump down, grab flag... frost nova and blink out. If the speed boots are there I'm home free... if not... then I can usually make it out into the field at least before I'm killed... (usually from range) someone else picks up the flag where I left off and caps.

Most PuGs will not be patient enough to set up something like that though and the longer the game goes the more frustration sets in and the less willing they are to listen to anyone else... So they get sloppy and lose.

[Mincemaker]

Anyway, I did mention again that the zergs I'm used to seeing in a PUG can hardly be called a zerg.

Should the PUG ever zerg, remember this, DO NOT MOVE LIKE WATER FLOWING. You can easily tell that the movement is like water if your battle map displays what looks like a stream of players trailing towards the enemy. This is NOT a zerg. Yes, I repeat, this is NOT a zerg. Wait for the slower player and move in one large group. A proper zerg should look like a huge blob moving towards the enemy base on the battlemap.

Second thing about a successful zerg is to kill everything that has a red name tag you come across. Demolish everyone of them. However, should you see the enemy scatter, do not chase each individual or small groups of player, for that will mean biting their bait. Being divided and conquered is not fun. Instead, just keep moving to enemy base and crush anything in your path.

Should they take your flag after you take theirs in a zerg, proceed to the battlefield and pursue the enemy flag bearer in the zerg.

Next thing to take note in the zerg is to remember to CC the tough healers, for example the paladins. Sheeps work very well, and do not hit sheeps. Fear can work wonders, especially when taking flag, and heal the flag runner and the warriors (and anybody for the matter, but warriors are at their deadliest when healed). Keep the healers protected. Without a doubt, this is the job delegated to rogues, since they can stun the enemy for a prolonged period of time until the warriors can intercept and remove the attackers. Oh, and kill the enemy's healers.

And finally, flag runners in the zerg stays in the zerg, for a very good zerg is also the most protected part of the WSG match.

But of course, to get the PUGs to understand that aspect of the zerg....

[Bryant]

Snowieken, that is a very good strategy.

I just met a few players that live near me and play on the same server, and I'm going to have to give this a try with them. We don't have any mages to frost nova (now 'freeze'), them though. Still, a very good strategy.

[caldepen]

I used to go in PuG's all the time because it was fun and light-hearted. I just started playing again and it seems that is no longer the case. One more example of a place where part-time players are not welcome... if I don't get twinked with a rainbow death-sword then some crazy dual wielding elf with glowing weapons kills me in 2 seconds. There should be a battlefield where I do not have to go to Ogrimmar and yell "CAN SOMEONE ENCHANT FOR ME? I HAVE MATS AND A TIP!" in order to compete.

To get back to original topic, I like the chaotic nature of PuG battles. I usually find a couple of people who seem to know whats going on and hang with them. I like to play Free-Safety. If there does not seem to be enough holding the center than thats where I go, if their flag has not been picked up in while I try to get it and hope someone can defend me if I get down the ramp (I never use the tunnel). You can also assume the enemy is as disorganized as you so use that to your advantage. If they have a couple of dufus's camping the graveyard, well thats two less guys I have to deal with. I run and if no-one comes to help, oh-well I die... I find defense never works as a coordinated attack can extract the flag quicker than you can defend it and then you can never catch up...

I like the double attack, one teammate grabs the flag and heads down the tunnel knowing he is going to die but usually takes all the enemies down the tunnel with him or her and then the secondary group consisting of a few wait right at the flag to grab it once it is returned and head out to the ramp untouched.

Or how about the old grab their flag and hide in their base until the we get our flag back? Feign death by the way is way more successful in PuG's.

Some of these fun strategies do not work in Pre-mades but that is what is so fun with all the pickup games... I think they are more organic and different. A lot of the pre-mades are repetitive.

Top tip; As soon as somebody I do not know starts yelling at me about do this, do that, I do the opposite, regardless of whether they are right or not. Its annoying! If you want to boss people around join a guild and go to their fancy-smancy meetings, discussing, and seconding, and calling for votes (I play videogames to get away from that crap...). Have fun and if you see a hunter running around playing WSG similar to the way someone would play Medal of Honor than wave hello and do not ask me if I want to join yer guild!
Cal

[GamerManOneTwo]

I am a lvl 19 Orc 'lock and just started playing WSG. In our battlegroup in the 10-19 range, the alliance have mostly twinks and they mostly win.

Last night I had a different experience in a PUG. Most players were level 19, Alliance as usual had 6 or 7 twinks - god I hate that little guy with the 2 glowing swords - but this time Horde had 4 or 5 twinks - what a difference an even fight makes.
We won 3-0 but it was very hard fought and my equal longest WSG yet at 55mins and was great fun. The other 55 mins was a 2-3 loss.

I knew it was going to be different when no-one on the horde side even attempted to get out and over the gates early - and buffs were put on me for only the second time in the 10 games I have played.

GM12

[Amurko]

I think it also depends on your class and spec. I play a twinked marksman hunter and I find myself better contributing to my group by playing midfield than defending or (especially) going after the enemy FC when he's already in their base.

[Mincemaker]

I think it also depends on your class and spec. I play a twinked marksman hunter and I find myself better contributing to my group by playing midfield than defending or (especially) going after the enemy FC when he's already in their base.

Same with me. Every time the team decides to use the strategy the OP mentined, I volunteer or guard duties, mainly because I find that I do a much better job doing that role.

[Amurko]

Etiquette aside, is having 2 ranged camp a GY a viable strategy if only for small periods till the opposing team has to commit resources to get rid of them?

Only if they're turtling then it MIGHT help, IMO.

Say they're turling and you camp the GY and kill 3 people who spawned with 2 ranged. They'll complain that the GY is camped and send a couple more ppl from the FR to rescue the GY. At that time, you'll want to send a large wave of forces into the enemy base.