What will happen to lvl 60 instances with TBC?

[Zalchan]

So, what will happen to the previous end game instances and raids with the release of TBC? Will anyone still be doing them and if they will, will they get to 70 and then do them?

[Stigg]

They have pretty much already been stopped being ran for anyody that has TBC.

I do look forward to going back and clearing Naxx when I hit 70....something that wasn't possible for my guild at 60.

It was pretty funny....the other night I logged on an alt in UC. Some guy was asking "LF4M Scholo!"
He was beign serious....and about 20 "lol"s followed very quickly.

There just reallyisnta a point in doing them anymore.

[DrOsmius]

For those of us in Outland, Warcraft 1.0 is an old game that we used to play. We'll visit for the Auction House and Class Trainers...and maybe an odd bit of grinding here and there for some mats or "let's do X for a lark"...

[swaldman]

I was very disappointed to find that the vast majority of my raid group didn't bother turning up for AQ20 last night.

Now OK, Outland is a novelty, so maybe they'll return next week... but I doubt it. Sadly the drive behind many (most?) peoples' play seems not to be experiencing and mastering new content and encounters, but getting new loot. They feel that there is "no point" in trying to progress in AQ20, or going for our second attempt at Razorgore next Tuesday.

This makes me sad :-(

[Fursphere]

I'm having a similar problem as that poor fellow LF4M Scholo above.

I'm in outlands, grinding away. I want my lvl 60 epic warlock mount, the dread steed.

The cost of mats is like 600+ G, about the same cost as the newer lowered epic mounts.

I really want the epic warlock mount, but getting a group together to do it may be impossible at this point. lol

[Fursphere]

I was very disappointed to find that the vast majority of my raid group didn't bother turning up for AQ20 last night.

Now OK, Outland is a novelty, so maybe they'll return next week... but I doubt it. Sadly the drive behind many (most?) peoples' play seems not to be experiencing and mastering new content and encounters, but getting new loot. They feel that there is "no point" in trying to progress in AQ20, or going for our second attempt at Razorgore next Tuesday.

This makes me sad :-(

Give it a couple of months. Once the majority of people hit 70 (there is already a good number of 70s out there), the casual 70s will be looking for stuff to do.

Getting a PuG 20 man AQ20 / ZG will probably be pretty easy, just to scream through it to see it all.

MC / BWL will be the same. Naxx maybe. AQ40 Maybe. Even at 70, fun non-raiders they'll probably still be difficult.

[Zalchan]

Sadly, this seems to be the consensus that the old "end game" stuff will be left by the wayside... Only problem is that I started playing 3 months ago and haven't even been in most of the instances and none of the raids. Last night, just trying to get a group for Uldaman was impossible. I personally want to experience all that the game has to offer on my trek to 70... I want to see/do AQ40, NAXX, ZG, etc.

[Fursphere]

On my 60 alts, prior to BC opening, I will randomly take people through lowbee instances.

I've done many Uldaman, Maradon, Zal'Furak, Sunken Temple, Gnomergone, etc runs, just for fun, just to help the people having problems finding a group.

I know its a pain to find groups for those places on mature (old) servers, because everyone is heading for end game, so leveling up can be a pain.

[DrOsmius]

I was very disappointed to find that the vast majority of my raid group didn't bother turning up for AQ20 last night.

Now OK, Outland is a novelty, so maybe they'll return next week... but I doubt it. Sadly the drive behind many (most?) peoples' play seems not to be experiencing and mastering new content and encounters, but getting new loot. They feel that there is "no point" in trying to progress in AQ20, or going for our second attempt at Razorgore next Tuesday.

This makes me sad :-(

Well...Outland is not just a novelty. It would be like saying STV is a novelty, why are aren't the 60's all still down here? It is a full-fledged game.

But I see your point, and I do think your friends are missing out. 20/40 person raiding is fun for the challenge it presents, whether or not you get loot. Fun is what it is about, and it is a shame you are denying yourselves that fun.

To the other poster about Uldaman...hahah, that place was hard to find groups when there was no Outland!

[Zalchan]

Yeah, I guess that is kinda like saying I can't find a group for Gnomer... A bad reference but still to the point. I want to experience ALL that the game has to offer at least once. I don't want to have to google images or utube to see what certain instances look like, I want to be a part of it.

[Fursphere]

Roll a toon on Kil'Jeaden and look me up.

I'll take you through the old stuff. :) (Alliance btw)

[JoeMuggs]

I was very disappointed to find that the vast majority of my raid group didn't bother turning up for AQ20 last night.

Now OK, Outland is a novelty, so maybe they'll return next week... but I doubt it. Sadly the drive behind many (most?) peoples' play seems not to be experiencing and mastering new content and encounters, but getting new loot. They feel that there is "no point" in trying to progress in AQ20, or going for our second attempt at Razorgore next Tuesday.

This makes me sad :-(

Dude sorry if this is harsh, but you are way off here. The new content is in outland AQ 20 is not new content. How many people totally master and farm every instance on there way up to 60? You do what you can but you keep moving. You can't always do everything; I would guess that since your guild is doing AQ20 and starting BWL you got a late start, many people are in this boat. Now you have the prefect opportunity to catch up quickly and start mastering the new content as every one is basically even and progress is about going forward from here I would love to see some of the stuff I missed but not at risk of missing out on the new stuff. If you stick your head in the sand and keep running bwl aq 20 (which is not going to happen the guild would dissolve first) your going to be way behind once again. Go see the new stuff and be glad you got to see what you got to see.

I know where your coming from I started in a newly form raiding guild with no raiding experience in the beginning of 2006 in the past year we came together and cleared aq20 zg MC BWL and got part way into AQ 40. Now part of me is sad we did not get the chance to finish AQ 40 and do Naxx, but its just a little sadness in no way do I wish we were doing it now, I wish we would have had the chance, but I in no way desire to do it now. Now is the time to move forward and have new adventures and raid new instances. It’s the opposite of what you said the good motivated players interested in new content are in outland taking it in and wanting to get to 70 and raid the new content. AQ20 BWL, and even naxx is no longer new content. There really is no point in doing it. Look you’re not going to stroll into BWL and drop neff in a month so if you were to try to raid it you'd still be working on it in two months while the rest of the world is already clearing the new lvl 70 stuff.

You look down on people for saying there is "no point" in raiding the old stuff so I ask you this, what is the "point" of raiding the old stuff? I certainly cant see one, I mean maybe if you had two bosses left in naxx just so you could say you cleared everything, but based on where your at and the shackles of the resest timer on instances and the tiered loot system (ie need to farm one to have a chance in the next) your talking about a commitment of several montha. This will only put you way behind on the actual "new content" and only sets you up to have the same thing happen again. I'm sorry but there is no point in that.

It’s not your guild members that have the problem its you that has your head stuck in the sand. No shame in this we all do it sometimes, but I think if you open your mind to new things you will have a lot more fun.

[Zalchan]

I have to respectfully disagree with what you have said. All content above level 40 is new to me. I have never seen it and I want to. Just because I started playing 3 months ago, I should be entitled to enjoying the same content as anyone else who plays the game. The fun of the game (to me) is to experience the new things, like the first time i went to the badlands, like the first time i accidentally crossed the river from elwynn forest to darkshire and this HUGE ?? wolf killed me in like 1 hit... I think some have played too long and forgotten how the roses on the way to 60/70 smell... New content to you may be the "new BC" instances while Uldaman and Zul'Farak is new to me...

[Fursphere]

Did you roll on a brand new server, or a mature server?

If your'e a brand new server, when you make your first toon, I think blizzard will automatically recommend a *new* server to you, so msot people on the server will be in the same level range as you.

If you picked a mature server thats been around since launch... I think you get the idea.

[Radhil]

Even on a mature server, those instances will be run again. The flood of new race characters guarantees it. What you're actually seeing is everyone burning their main through Outland. Give it a chance for the new races to get their "serious" players while they level up, and for all the alts to come back once a lot of level 70s hit. The old instances will not be completely abandoned. They never have been, even with the raid game tying up all the 60s.

The raid instances though... Novelty factor. Unfortunate side effect of designing an end-game when you don't actually plan to end the game....

[larissa]

I have to respectfully disagree with what you have said. All content above level 40 is new to me. I have never seen it and I want to. Just because I started playing 3 months ago, I should be entitled to enjoying the same content as anyone else who plays the game. The fun of the game (to me) is to experience the new things, like the first time i went to the badlands, like the first time i accidentally crossed the river from elwynn forest to darkshire and this HUGE ?? wolf killed me in like 1 hit... I think some have played too long and forgotten how the roses on the way to 60/70 smell... New content to you may be the "new BC" instances while Uldaman and Zul'Farak is new to me...

I have to agree ... I've only been playing a few months. Everything is new to me too, and I would have loved to see it and experience it when it was appropriate for me to do so. I spent the couple of weeks before BC powering up from level 55 to 60, hitting the instances I needed in hopes of gathering my Devout set (only have 4/8). I have never been to LBRS, Dire Maul, or any of the raid instances beyond UBRS.

I can see people doing any of these except to farm now at higher levels. The gear certainly won't be worth it, so it'll be basically tourist season for me now. Which I find a shame, but don't really see any way around. If each expansion keeps raising the level cap, this will happen with each set of end-games instances/raids. What's the point of doing them when green quest items in the next levelling area are just as good if not better, other than to just see?

*thinking about setting up a 70s guild <Naxx Tours>* :laughing:

~~~Larissa

[kreyson]

This is taken from the BC strategy guide book by Brady Games on Page 8, each of the 5 man instances have Heroic Modes specifically for L70 people. Bosses will be slightly different (Tactics and spells) and new loot tables.

Dungeons with Heroic Modes:

Auchenai Crypts
Mana Tombs
Sethekk Halls
Shadow Labrynth
Dark Portal
Durnholde
SLave Pens
Steam Vault
Underbog
Blood Furnace
Hellfire Ramparts
Shattered Halls
The Arcatraz
The Botanica
The Mechanaar

Also.. quoted from the manual

"Be awar that you need to unlock teh Heroic Dungeons. The keys for each are going to be unique, such that you may need higher Reputation to be able to use them. Being Revered in Honor Hold/Thrallmar might be required for your Heroic Hellfire Citadel runs, just as Revered Reputation wil Sha'tar may be required for Tempest Keep instances."

"When you defeat a boss, they drop epic gear for the level 70s, and they also drop a token for each person in the group. THese tokesn are used to purchase Tier 4 Epic armor for level 70s."

"Heroic Mode instances have a raid timer similar to normal raid instances; you can run any Heroic Mode instance only once per day."

Not sure if this means that we can only do one instance per day or we can only do each of them once per day...

[mesonm]

Give it a couple of months. Once the majority of people hit 70 (there is already a good number of 70s out there), the casual 70s will be looking for stuff to do.

I totally agree....70's will come back in groups of three to do LBRS, five to try UBRS, etc., on up the chain.

[JoeMuggs]

Let me clarify my point you pay your fee and you are entitled to do whatever you want. Some times I want to do things other people think are strange so not only do I acknowledge you have the right to do it I totally respect your right to do it. I love to see new things too, and I think ppl who are starting new or recently started are getting a bit of a raw deal cause it will be hard to find groups making the lvling process somewhat less enjoyable.

However the poster I quoted was talking about raid instances and that is a little different. You soon will realize one of my main points which is that this game is progressive in nature I to missed out on some of that content, naxx, it is not b/c of us not being good or moving slow that others its that we started late (when we were killing our first MC bosses the top guilds on our server were dropping nef) we in the last year progressed at as good of a pace as anyone, but due to the design of the game where raid instances can only be run once a week and the fact that you need gear from one to have a good chance in the next we simply ran out of time. If we did not take this opportunity to catch up we would forever be stuck behind. This means the next time there was an xpack it would be a repeat of the same situation.

So this means no matter what (short of being able to stop time) your going to end up missing some thing. This means it’s up to you to choose what you are going to miss. I for one would rather skip the older middle stuff than miss the newest stuff. If before the xpack some one had told you, you will get to see all the forty mans but one and you can choose which one you have to miss would you choose to miss Naxx or mc?

Still at the end of the day the poster I was referring to has the right to choose what he wants to see, and I respect that. This was not even the point. What I have a problem with is, and why it’s different for raid instances is there are 20 to 40 people involved. The poster said we was sorry that he was missing content, not only do I understand that I relate to it; however he went on to blame this on his guild mates saying basically they had no dedication to seeing new content and progressing through new things, and then went on to call them loot whores. That is a ridiculous statement! To say someone has no dedication to progressing and see new content b/c they are in outland instead of raiding AQ 20 is nonsensical????

It’s a game to be played for fun, I'd hate to see anyone do any thing else than play it in a manor that they found most fun. But when raiding is what your talking about it involves 20 to 40 or more ppl and when you get into to telling them what they should do that’s not ok, and questioning there character and integrity because they don't want to do what you want to do is plain and simple wrong, and in this cause not accurate.

[unbdm]

I have not noticed any effect in the mid level instance groups since TBC. I still get invites to ST, ZF, Mar, every night. I don't know why new 60 teritory would impact mid level toons.

I have noticed bag prices going through the roof. I'm wondering if the 300 tailers are leveling instead of craftying.... 14 slot bags went from around 3G to 5G, 16 slot from 13.5 to 17G, with buyout prices comononly at 20G....

I'm going to work on my tailering!

I look forward to coming back to the 40 man raids as a lv70 and knocking them out. Even if there are 40 man raid groups when I hit 60, I doubt I'll mess with it until I hit max level. It's not that I don't want to see the claisic end game raids, it's just that I would rather get on to the new stuff, and see it later when i don't have to mess with a 40 man group.

I'll be in outland as quick as I can... I usualy make one level per week, and I'm 50 now, so that will be two months from now...

Best Regards,
Barry

[MoRRoW]

Roll a toon on Kil'Jeaden and look me up.

I'll take you through the old stuff. :) (Alliance btw)

NOOO!!!!!!!

I say he roll a HORDE on Kil'jeaden and we go and kill you, then I'll run him through anything he wants ;) ahahha

MoRRoW

[Xmcdaniel]

I have to agree ... I've only been playing a few months. Everything is new to me too, and I would have loved to see it and experience it when it was appropriate for me to do so. I spent the couple of weeks before BC powering up from level 55 to 60, hitting the instances I needed in hopes of gathering my Devout set (only have 4/8). I have never been to LBRS, Dire Maul, or any of the raid instances beyond UBRS.

I can see people doing any of these except to farm now at higher levels. The gear certainly won't be worth it, so it'll be basically tourist season for me now. Which I find a shame, but don't really see any way around. If each expansion keeps raising the level cap, this will happen with each set of end-games instances/raids. What's the point of doing them when green quest items in the next levelling area are just as good if not better, other than to just see?

*thinking about setting up a 70s guild <Naxx Tours>* :laughing:

~~~Larissa

I may be lost here and have never ran the old "end game" content, but I simply can't understand the fun in running Molten Core over and over again for months on end in hopes of completing a gear set. If anything it sounds like the most monotonous and boring thing ever. Why would anyone look forward to dealing with scheduled, 6 hour, 40 man raids, where your chances of getting that gear are slim, the group is usually highly politicized and strict, etc? That to me is more of a job and not so much a game. I'm glad the TBC stuff has come out so when I hit 60 I DON'T have to play the game that way. Thank goodness for TBC is my point of view.

[MoRRoW]

I have to respectfully disagree with what you have said. All content above level 40 is new to me. I have never seen it and I want to. Just because I started playing 3 months ago, I should be entitled to enjoying the same content as anyone else who plays the game. The fun of the game (to me) is to experience the new things, like the first time i went to the badlands, like the first time i accidentally crossed the river from elwynn forest to darkshire and this HUGE ?? wolf killed me in like 1 hit... I think some have played too long and forgotten how the roses on the way to 60/70 smell... New content to you may be the "new BC" instances while Uldaman and Zul'Farak is new to me...

The problem is that even if you played for ONLY 3 months, there is a LOT of CASUAL people that have been playing for a year and over and have NEVER saw NAXX AQ 40, BWL and even MC.

You have to take into consideration that the world will not stop for you to enjoy the content.

I didn't kill any bosses in Naxx, I did AQ 40 up to the twin emp. But what we decided to do as a guild, was to enjoy the leveling to 70, take a break from raiding, then when we're at 70, go back, finish AQ 40 (which will be ridiculously easy, and Naxx (which will also be easy... well.. at least not as hard as it is now ;) )

Then we'll move on. Seriously, for a lot of people, even casual gamers, Outland is just amazing because it's new stuff and that outside of raid, nobody saw new content for a WHILE. So Everybody I know are all in Outland. Sure the loots are pretty nice, but a lot have to do with the fact that we're killing different type of mobs and doing new quests (especially for people with more than 1 lvl 60).

Once people are 70, and Outland ''normal'' content is not new anymore, people will still run Strat/Ubrs/LBRS, probably just for the fun of farming it or trying to see what they can solo or duo. It will be your chance to go in there and experience it. And believe me, once you done it 2-3 times, you'll never go back into it. Since you can't get improvements from there for the time/loot ratio. So for the fun of it, sure, you'll go a few times, but you'll definately not want to run over and over and over again like a LOT of people did over the past year or more... ;)

MoRRoW

[Icefrost]

I actually have done SM a lot more times on lvl 60 than I ever did back when I actually needed a group for it, and its all been just for fun so far. A good run of a lowlevel instance that I can just barely solo is something I really like doing. But no, I am not looking forward to lvl 70 and trying to solo something bigger like the uldaman end boss, Archaedas.
I have been at level 60 for almost two months now and, despite the fact that I never was too keen on going for the 40-man raids which I never did get onto, I still feel like I'm missing out on a load of stuff.
I think most of the level 70 people will stay in outland long after they reach the limit, simply because the best loot and hardest battles are now there. So to all others here I want to say: wouldn't count on waiting for people to hit 70 and come back to the level 60 intances for fun.

[Fursphere]

NOOO!!!!!!!

I say he roll a HORDE on Kil'jeaden and we go and kill you, then I'll run him through anything he wants ;) ahahha

MoRRoW

Sounds good.

Just dont' be upset when I light you on fire, and make you run around like a chicken with its head cut off. :laugh:

[Fursphere]

I think most of the level 70 people will stay in outland long after they reach the limit, simply because the best loot and hardest battles are now there. So to all others here I want to say: wouldn't count on waiting for people to hit 70 and come back to the level 60 intances for fun.

Very good, valid point.

So, get in a guild, make some friends, and do some guild runs on the old stuff. :smiley:

[det]

I'm having a similar problem as that poor fellow LF4M Scholo above.

I'm in outlands, grinding away. I want my lvl 60 epic warlock mount, the dread steed.

The cost of mats is like 600+ G, about the same cost as the newer lowered epic mounts.

I really want the epic warlock mount, but getting a group together to do it may be impossible at this point. lol

I thought about that...Warlocks with epic warlock mounts might die out, indeed.

Other than that, we will miss MC and BWL like we miss SM and Maraudon....

Not at all....

[Fursphere]

I wonder if 5 warlocks could take on DM:West at like lvl 63 ish?

Couple of felguards and voidwalkers, and massive DoT dps... hmm.

Another problem is the mats though. With no one in Azeroth farming anymore, I bet a lot of the mats on the AH will simply fade away (25 dark iron ore is one of the requirements for the quest chain IIRC). I mean, what's dark iron used for? FR Tank Gear right? No MC/BWL, who needs FR gear?

I mean, I've got a 60 alt 300 miner, and I can mine it myself, but what about people who don't have this option? QQ more and go roll a miner?

What about arcanite bars? (I've got a 60 alt 300 alchy too, so I could do that myself as well... but for the general pop... uh?)

The priest "epic" quest... not a big issues, as you'll get a better staff in the outlands. Hunter "epic" quest... same thing.

Pally and Warlock "epic" quests? I would go as far as saying that the epic mounts somewhat define our classes, and set them apart from the mix. Of course, I'd put my Gnome on a Dreanei mount anyday...

[cyks]

Just to throw my $.02 into the mix...

Let me start by saying that my guild is a bunch of close friends and family with around 30-35 members (maybe 15-20 on at a time on a good night although that's very rare).

Obviously with our size, we're not a raiding guild... and since many of them are strictly against PuG's, most won't see anything above LBRS. Because of that, most of them see hitting lvl 60 as a time to roll a new alt.

BC changes all of that for us. We can now see and experience new things again- and not do the same Strat or Scholo runs over and over.

True, most of us haven't seen plenty of what WoW has to offer, but without the numbers of a raiding guild, that isn't a possibility. Thankfully with Blizzards lowering the raid number to 25, we should be able to pull that off when the time comes.

In the meantime, we'll level up to 70... and for those off nights when we get bored or want to see something new- we'll get a group then and go back to see what we missed. Most of us were 60 before we went to ST or Mara... we just went back there to see what we missed originally- I think the 20-40 man raids will be much like that to us... we won't see them now, but eventually we will.

[larissa]

I may be lost here and have never ran the old "end game" content, but I simply can't understand the fun in running Molten Core over and over again for months on end in hopes of completing a gear set. If anything it sounds like the most monotonous and boring thing ever. Why would anyone look forward to dealing with scheduled, 6 hour, 40 man raids, where your chances of getting that gear are slim, the group is usually highly politicized and strict, etc? That to me is more of a job and not so much a game. I'm glad the TBC stuff has come out so when I hit 60 I DON'T have to play the game that way. Thank goodness for TBC is my point of view.

My point is that there's stuff I want to see, and now may not be able to because no one else wants to go see. I have no desire to run instances and raids over and over again, I agree with you totally. But I did get caught up in it with trying for my Devout set. I mean, sure, we've heard people say that the loot is fantastic in Burning Crusades, but you didn't _know_ that it is. One person's fantastic is another's ehh.

Having now experienced and seen just what we can get in Outlands, my partner and I are kicking ourselves for devoting so much time to the instances for our dungeon sets. I could have easily been through Dire Maul and LBRS by now as well if we hadn't been concentrating so much on Stratholme/Scholomance. Now, I'm going to be going back there when anything I loot from there is just going to be vendored or disenchanted. This is a shame, as there's so much gear out there that basically doesn't get used, and now it's going to be even less used. Luckily my companion and I are of the same mind, and want to see a lot of the previous endgame stuff just to see, so we likely will do it on our own, or find a friend or two with nothing to do.

I'm not saying that the expansion is bad for this, I think Outlands is tremendous, and I'm having a great time exploring and questing. It's more a function of how the end-game is implemented. I understand making it hard to get all the pieces to your sets, or for that rare recipe to drop. To have to go in over and over and over again. It makes people who have capped their level to keep playing the game.

Personally, I would like them to implement a bit of what they're doing with the new end-game raids. Put tokens into these 60s instances, along with the regular drops, maybe just for the BC enabled. Then use these tokens to buy various set gear so that you don't need to run the instances 50 times. I would certainly do Stratholme a couple of times if it got me my Devout pieces from there on my way up. Not everyone will go for it, of course, but I'm sure there would be more than a few people who would go a couple of times.

It's possible that there will be a lot of people who don't buy the expansion, who may want to do the end game as well. But it strikes me that if you're really so into the game, you're going to get the expansion. That will leave casual players, who won't have the hours available to put in on a raid. So unless it's over 60s helping a friend or on a lark, I think all 60 raid instances are going to be dead ghost-towns. Naxx will finally be able to sit down to his cup of tea and not have to worry about a band of adventurers banging on his door. :grin:

~~~Larissa

[cyks]

Naxx will finally be able to sit down to his cup of tea and not have to worry about a band of adventurers banging on his door. :grin:

I think Naxx will be in more danger then ever in the near future. Most raiding guilds haven't even stepped foot there- even the ones that have, haven't cleared it. I would assume that MANY people will be going back to either see what they missed- or for payback.

Who here hasn't gone back and done Deadmines just to see how easy it was now that you've grown up... I would expect the same from Naxx.


Much like how 70's were solo'ing the Baron 45 in beta...

[Atoz]

been playing since WoW went retail, got 2 60s (warlock and druid). so far I have only been in MC and ZG twice, the others have not even been close to the raiding instances. I guess you could call me a casual gamer in WoW. You can image my delight when I go to outland and get these nice rewards for quests, so much for saving up DKP...

Back to the OP though, I will suley go back to the lvl 60 instances after I get a closer to 70.

[Twoflower]

i doubt that naxx will ever be a fun instanze to go back to. Same whit cthun. Even whit level 70, casual gamers won't get far in these instances.

green eye beam, anyone ? if you are not organised, not even lvl 100 would help you there.

[Eastwood1427]

I imagine Scholo, Strat, Dire Maul and Blackrock Spire will be relegated to the status of Sunken Temple of the Expansion - Places you go for a quest, but otherwise ignore. Hellfire Citadel is about as hard (Arguably easier) and drops gear that makes their loot look like vendor trash. Apart from running 'Locks and Loladins through to get their mounts, I expect the place will wither and die, except the odd 70 going to smack the Baron around for a bit of payback.

The only purpose the raid instances can serve now, I imagine, is training. The gear is inferior to what you get at 70, even Naxx. As such, using them as a place to test out guild cohesion and team-work in a risk-free enviroment could be handy. Apart from that, I just don't see the point.

Personally, I never raided and spent most of my time questing, exploring and making money to finance alts (Alchemist alt, Enchanting alt...). So Outland is a dream come true after the monotony of the non-raiding endgame of WoW 1.0.

[Rex Normal]

I only just managed to get into a regular MC farming group that ran every weekend a few months before BC. Asside from that I only saw two bosses from ZG, the first boss in AQ20 and the first boss in AQ40. Never even set foot in BWL, ONY, or NAXX. In fact I never even ran DM except for the one time to get my mount and as soon as I got my mount we left.

Yes, the challenge of all these endgame instances is appealing to me, but there are many more new challenges in outland that far surpass those set forth in 1.0 endgame. I now look forward to the new endgame content and care not about ever seeing what I missed in 1.0.

And who knows, maybe blizz will change 1.0 endgame to bring it more inline with lvl 70 after several months of players experiencing new content and become bored with it. Maybe they'll break down and set heroic mode for all the old 1.0 instances. Maybe they'll take all the mobs out and make them into museums of what once was so players like you can stroll thru at your convenience and get a feel for what the old timers had to go thru when they grinded for their tier 2 and 3 gear which we will all soon laugh at.

[Pwnzaurs]

the only time im going to azeroth after BC is for helping friends, quests, and maby to screw around a lil =)

[LucidTaint]

After a couple of days of Burning Crusade goodness, my guild master made our guild's message of the day "F*** ZG and AQ20!" (the instances that our smallish raiding guild was raiding). >.<

In fact, we had a ZG raid scheduled last Friday... it didn't happen....

[Arthengel]

Level 60 end-game instances are made obsolete, and nobody will go back there.
What frustrates me is I have to stop raiding and kill helboars and pick mushrooms now. 95% of players had not seen naxx, and the majority of raiding players as well. The expansion was not needed, at least not in a year, but you know the price, so good businness. It is simply rushed on everybody. That's a whole different discussion anyway.

But there is one thing for sure, it won't change anything, level up from 60 to 70, casuals roll on new alts, raiders go to new raids, bg'ers go back to pvping. And we lost the beautiful challenges of BWL, Naxx, etc... <sigh>

This is from one of my replies to another thread:

Progression could be designed in a better way. For example, experience gained from old raid bosses could be increased. Instead of grinding 5mans in outlands for raid attunements, Kel'thuzad's head could be required for Karazhan or Mount Hyjal attunement, and we could have received a key along with the quest rewards when we turn in Ony's head, which in turn would give access to Maghteridon's lair, and these bosses could drop all these quest items for everybody in the raid, and T4 sets could be only upgradeable from T3 sets, etc...etc...

So while we are raiding, we go to 70 without rush, and enjoy, and time to time go to outlands for questing and raiding... no?

[Loriel]

I do agree that to some extent it is a shame that the old world instances will be obsolete and have now become ghost towns. I think very few people will miss ST and BRD, but I for one would really like to have seen Naxx. I hope my guild will be hosting a Naxx run sometime between 65 and 70. I know it won't be a walk in the park even at 70, but we're not a bunch of disorganised PUG'er so I think it should be possible. Then again, dowing Naxx bosses at lvl 70 is not a major accomplishment, but I don't care about bragging rights - I just want to experience the instance.

As for requiring Naxx drops for BC attunement and requiring T3 as prerequisites for T4 .. I'm sorry, but this is a truly horrible idea.. It would require all BC raiders to squeeze through that narrow tunnel of the old world endgame in order to be competetive in the new BC raid encounters. From what I've learned from people who have done Naxx, it requires a massive commitment of time and resources, and only the top 1% of guilds will have the dedication, coordination and sheer stubborn willpower to go all the way to Kel'thuzad. By forcing players to go through all this you're in effect creating a massive roadblock, and this goes totally against the "clean slate" concept of the Burning Crusade - a concept that I'm 100% in favor of.

And as for this expansion not being needed, are you actually serious?! It took 2 years before the first expansion was released, and 2.5 years in the US - which is a very long time for an MMO. The previous endgame was stale and lacked any real sense of progression apart from 40-man raids, which quickly became monotonous and boring for very many players. BC is a massive breath of fresh air, and it has infused WoW with life and given it a much needed boost.

Hmm, I have rarely disagreed with anything as strongly as I did with this post - sorry ;)

[Arthengel]

I do agree that to some extent it is a shame that the old world instances will be obsolete and have now become ghost towns. I think very few people will miss ST and BRD, but I for one would really like to have seen Naxx. I hope my guild will be hosting a Naxx run sometime between 65 and 70. I know it won't be a walk in the park even at 70, but we're not a bunch of disorganised PUG'er so I think it should be possible. Then again, dowing Naxx bosses at lvl 70 is not a major accomplishment, but I don't care about bragging rights - I just want to experience the instance.

As for requiring Naxx drops for BC attunement and requiring T3 as prerequisites for T4 .. I'm sorry, but this is a truly horrible idea.. It would require all BC raiders to squeeze through that narrow tunnel of the old world endgame in order to be competetive in the new BC raid encounters. From what I've learned from people who have done Naxx, it requires a massive commitment of time and resources, and only the top 1% of guilds will have the dedication, coordination and sheer stubborn willpower to go all the way to Kel'thuzad. By forcing players to go through all this you're in effect creating a massive roadblock, and this goes totally against the "clean slate" concept of the Burning Crusade - a concept that I'm 100% in favor of.

And as for this expansion not being needed, are you actually serious?! It took 2 years before the first expansion was released, and 2.5 years in the US - which is a very long time for an MMO. The previous endgame was stale and lacked any real sense of progression apart from 40-man raids, which quickly became monotonous and boring for very many players. BC is a massive breath of fresh air, and it has infused WoW with life and given it a much needed boost.

Hmm, I have rarely disagreed with anything as strongly as I did with this post - sorry ;)


First of all, there should be nothing as "old world", I am against the existence of such thing. When someone goes and buys the game tomorrow, he will start at level 1, not 60. So it has to be integrated.

Non raiding players can go and level up to 70, do 5mans, have a new dungeon set, as it was. But raiders should be able to progress through raids.

Yesterday I was hitting Vael at the face, now I am killing pigs ffs!!!

As for Naxx being too difficult, it is difficult for someone just hit level 60, but it is a fair challenge for a guild that has killed Nef.

If Naxx is too difficult, what makes us think Mount Hyjal will be any easier anyway?

[Loriel]

First of all, there should be nothing as "old world", I am against the existence of such thing. When someone goes and buys the game tomorrow, he will start at level 1, not 60. So it has to be integrated.

Non raiding players can go and level up to 70, do 5mans, have a new dungeon set, as it was. But raiders should be able to progress through raids.

Yesterday I was hitting Vael at the face, now I am killing pigs ffs!!!

As for Naxx being too difficult, it is difficult for someone just hit level 60, but it is a fair challenge for a guild that has killed Nef.

If Naxx is too difficult, what makes us think Mount Hyjal will be any easier anyway?Well, the concept of stale and "old world" content is common to all MMOs, so you might as well get used to it. When an expansion is released, the new content will supercede the old. Expecting to be able to advance through raiding is a bit of a shallow argument, imo, as the old raiding content was designed with lvl 60s in mind. If you really want to go raiding then it's simply a matter of pushing hard for level 70 (my server has several of them already) and then jump into Karazhan and Magtheridon's Lair.

I understand that for those people new to the game, the previous endgame scene will for the most part be unavailable to them, simply because the majority of the server has moved on to new challenges in BC. This means that it will be quite tricky to find groups for BRD/Strat/Scholo etc, and very few guilds (if any) will bother running MC and BWL. I agree that it is sad to have dead content like this, but imo this is an unavoidable byproduct of increasing the level cap and introducing new challenges. The old world raid instances have done their job, so it's time to put them to rest.

Then again, Blizzard might some day come up with a lvl 70 Heroic Mode setting for Naxxramas, allowing you to run/re-run it at lvl 70, with lvl 70 rewards. Personally I have mixed feelings about that, but you'd probably get a kick out of it.

You are ofc entitled to your opinion about this design philosophy, but then I'm entitled to disagree with you :) Allowing raiders to progress through raiding is one thing, forcing all potential BC raiders to walk the same route is another..

[mesonm]

Yesterday I was hitting Vael at the face, now I am killing pigs ffs!!!


Nothing is stopping you from hitting vael....Go for it.

Oh wait, you have to find a bunch of like-minded people to go...Never happen.

[ArTizan]

Well, glad I started my first char on a new server, most people are level 0 - 20 and there's no end of parties to Gnomer! :)

[swaldman]

First of all, there should be nothing as "old world", I am against the existence of such thing. When someone goes and buys the game tomorrow, he will start at level 1, not 60. So it has to be integrated.

Aye. But if a new player rolled on my (mature) realm now, they'd have problems. The alts have mostly been put to bed, so it's impossible to get groups for lowbie instances.


As for Naxx being too difficult, it is difficult for someone just hit level 60, but it is a fair challenge for a guild that has killed Nef.
If Naxx is too difficult, what makes us think Mount Hyjal will be any easier anyway?

There are two different things at work here.

One is the level of difficulty from firepower, hit points, etc.. This can be overcome by getting better gear or spending money on consumables (or both, which was apparently very necessary for Naxx).

The other is the level of difficulty in terms of required player skill - tactics & lrning2play. People have quoted C'thun as an example of this... I've never been anywhere near there, but if getting something wrong can cause the whole raid to be hit for 2 million hit points... well having nice gear with +500 stamina isn't going to help you there.

In terms of firepower, I don't imagine that any of the new instances will be any harder with lvl 70 gear than Naxx was with lvl 60 gear- simply because I think that that would be reaching the limit of what is possible.

In terms of tactical difficulty, the designers have had an interesting balance to make, as they will have players of all levels reaching the new endgame in a few months.
Will there be a boring introduction to raiding like MC? I hope not. Will everything be as complex and/or tactically difficult as AQ40/Naxx? I hope not to that as well, or casual guilds wouldn't stand a chance.

I'm betting that in terms of both types of difficulty there will be a similar progression at lvl 70 to what we had at 60 (except probably nothing as tactically simple as MC - ZG might be a better benchmark). Yes, hardcore Naxx raiders will breeze through the first few places and farm them for gear. Hopefully they won't complain too much, it's a necessary evil. Equally the "top" instance or two will probably be at *least* as tactically difficult as naxx - need to give the hardcore raiders a fresh challenge. So I'll probably never see the hardest places... fair enough I guess. Maybe at 80 in the next expansion..... :cool:

[moopy]

It's not as tragic as all that, some of the 40 man raid content was just plain tedious. AQ40 with its salmon colour scheme, 15 minute corpse runs (even with a special mount) and huge bugs (I don't mean the mobs), well, I'd never miss it. I certainly won't be trying to run any of my lowbies through those instances- they'll probably get some of the levels 55-60 in strat, scholo,dire maul etc., but will be going to outland at 58. A lot of those older instances really are lacking polish and will soon get dull. However, it's yet one more thing for us nostalgic types to bore newer players with.. Maybe blizz will overhaul them to make them worthwhile again, but don't hold your breath.

Blizz got a bit caught up in MUDflation with increasingly overblown content- and it was only us obsessives who ever saw very far into the 40-man dungeons. Since it's a mass market product, it makes sense to pitch the structure more towards being accesible- and adding "heroic" options for those who like their beatings a little more severe. The sheer management headaches involved in organising 40 man raids meant that the game was becoming more like a job for some people, and that loses blizz players and thus money- they don't want that.

I can't currently see why someone levelling now would want to bother with attuning for Ony, MC, BWL or Naxx. I don't see why they'd bother with ZG or either of the AQs either. However, given how much more polished the new five mans are than the old stuff, it promises much for the new endgame.

Don't be fooled by how short and easy the early TBC instances are, they are designed to be doable by people who have just hit lv 58-60, and don't have loads of MC/BWL/Naxx gear. Of course it seems easy to us old timers with our m4d raiding sk33lz and high-end gear. However, try running a few of the mid-level dungeons when you're too low for the meeting stones, and discover how much fun it can be :) I was delighted by quite how nasty some of the caster mob groups are in mana tombs, they eat clueless PUGs alive, so maybe it will actually force your average ROFLcopter idiots to up their game (or maybe they will just go easy mode and zerg it when they're way too high-level after grinding pigs while wearing greens, yawn).

[Arthengel]

Nothing is stopping you from hitting vael....Go for it.

Oh wait, you have to find a bunch of like-minded people to go...Never happen.

I won't go BWL anymore, because it is obsolete, and nobody is that marginalist including myself.

And I will never agree with "old world instances were for old world, we have new ones now". There could be one obvious reason for them becoming obsolete, which is, laziness.

I can't design the game here, it is not my job anyway. But obviously there was not enough work on the integration.

"Look, it is too much effort to integrate the progression of lvl60 end game to TBC, let's just ridiculously increase the quest rewards at outlands, forget about some tuning and relating the attunements, blah blah, we will add 1/4th of the content and we will sell it for a full game price, so hurry up, copy and paste those helboars in blasted lands to hellfire peninsula!!!!"

[Loriel]

And I will never agree with "old world instances were for old world, we have new ones now". There could be one obvious reason for them becoming obsolete, which is, lazinessI think you're either missing the point here (at least the point I'm trying to make), or you're coming at this from a completely different angle. Possibly a combination of the two.

In either case I fail to see how Blizzard could have designed the transition into BC in such a way as to not make the old world instances obsolete. The only way would be to somehow force players to still run them, e.g. by requiring T3 as a prereq for T4 or by possibly needing some items from the old 5-mans in order to advance to the new ones. And being forced to do something is not my idea of fun, especially in a linear manner like this.

Like I said in my first post, this would result in tedium and boredom for players who feel forced to run the same 5-mans over and over, and tears of frustration for those forced to wipe in Naxx. And Blizzard can't revamp or otherwise touch these instances in a major way, as they still want the "old WoW" to be playable for those people who choose not to buy the expansion.

And as for the fact that the quest rewards in BC are (as some see it) hideously inflated, then again that is a consequence of Blizzard wanting to bridge the gap between the hardcore raiders and the .. not so hardcore players. Again I fail to see how they could have done this any differently. If actual T2-T3 gear was required for the lvl 65-ish instances, then the hardcore players would breeze through it (possibly complaining it was too easy) and the people in T0.5 would be in IF/Org, searching for a guild with which they can spend 3-4 months working on BWL and AQ40 in order to be competetive in BC. As the latter group is more representative of WoW's core demogaphic, it makes a lot of sense for Blizzard to try to keep this group entertained and keep them playing.

IMO your posts convey a bit of an elitist raiding attitude, and I think you fail to see the bigger picture. The majority of WoW players don't even know who Vael is, and they will never get an oppurtinity to kill him. That doesn't stop them from enjoying the game, though.

I was delighted by quite how nasty some of the caster mob groups are in mana tombs, they eat clueless PUGs alive, so maybe it will actually force your average ROFLcopter idiots to up their game (or maybe they will just go easy mode and zerg it when they're way too high-level after grinding pigs while wearing greens, yawn).I don't know if this is actually in effect in the live game, but I read something about how the mobs in Coilfang would scale to the level of your party. Hence, if you went in with lvl 68s you would face mobs of an equivalent level. Again, not sure if this is in the live game atm or if it's restricted to only the Coilfang instances. Personally I haven't done Coilfang yet, but I will shortly - and I'm really looking forward to the Auchindoun instances.

Speaking of 5-man instances and Blizzard's design choices, I'm very glad that the new BC instances are capped at 5. In retrospect, allowing players to 10-man instances like Strat and Scholo was a pretty major mistake, as everybody and their grandmother 10-man zerged these places - with no elements of risk nor personal gratification. When they were finally capped at 5, people started complaining about "omg, this is too hard!" etc. *sigh*

[Gormidan]

Sadly, this seems to be the consensus that the old "end game" stuff will be left by the wayside... Only problem is that I started playing 3 months ago and haven't even been in most of the instances and none of the raids. Last night, just trying to get a group for Uldaman was impossible. I personally want to experience all that the game has to offer on my trek to 70... I want to see/do AQ40, NAXX, ZG, etc.

I'm in the same boat as you. I hit 60 with my druid only 2 1/2 weeks before TBC was released. Guild members stopped making plans for raids or attunement runs, seemed like everything was coming to a lull. And now it is like they're all focused on hitting 70 and letting other members fend for themselves. I want to experience all the content but it doesn't seem like this will happen anytime soon. I'm thinking if moving all my characters to a new server would be a wise decision. What I wish Blizz would do is to make the lower level content more interesting, especially for the races pre TBC. I'd like to see something like earning an extra talent point when you become exalted with a faction, and some how make earning that reward tied to completing quests for a faction and linked to lower level instances. So, I'd like to see things that will give high level players an incentive to group up with lowbies for their instance runs. I just don't want to see things to come to a point where people will hit 70 then put thier character on hiatus and ignore the rest of what other members are trying to accomplish. (Hmm, maybe I should get to new server and start my own guild)

[swaldman]

I was delighted by quite how nasty some of the caster mob groups are in mana tombs, they eat clueless PUGs alive, so maybe it will actually force your average ROFLcopter idiots to up their game (or maybe they will just go easy mode and zerg it when they're way too high-level after grinding pigs while wearing greens, yawn).

You got it right second time. The same way that PuGs wanted 55-60 for ST, 58+ for BRD, 60 for strat/scholo......

The telling thing will be now, as it was before, the difficulty level of the lvl 68-70 instances - when you can't just out-level them any more.

[JoeMuggs]

And I will never agree with "old world instances were for old world, we have new ones now". There could be one obvious reason for them becoming obsolete, which is, laziness.

Sorry but either your trying to be difficult in order to gain some perverse pleasure out of it or your and idiot. Do you remember 6 months ago when naxx did not exist?? It’s not like there was all this content that’s been there from the jump that they did not give ppl enough time to see. Naxx was put in as a hold me over for the highest end raiders since the xpack was delayed 6 months. If you were not in this group and therefore did not get to see the content it’s not blizzs fault. Naxx was put out a few month b4 the expansion and was design such that ppl who could drop nef still had little chance, you had to be well progressed into AQ 40 to even have a chance that should make it obvious that it was not intended as content for mass consumption.

oh and your idea about having to run 40 mans to get attunement for outland stuff, YA that’s just what we need more BS stuff to farm out of instances that while fun learning become so effin monitions it ridiculous (and let me guess you would get 2 a clear so it takes half a year to get your whole raid ready). All this does is continuing and extend the tiered cycle of the cast system that existed before the xpack and is in my opinion the problem. Excited about hitting on vael, trust me in a month or two it wouldn't be anymore exciting than hitting on that hellboard and at least on the hellboard I can do it on my own time with out dealing with the logistics of a 40 man group. I loved learning MC but frankly I have not been there in 3 months and if I had to go tomorrow I might consider deleting my character to get out of it, and for me bwl was starting to get that way.

The whole problem is the entire system was way too tiered with long resets and limited drops, and only one path to follow with only one instance per tier. Why did most ppl in this thread not experience Naxx cause your needed AQ 40 gear for naxx - and -> you needed bwl gear for AQ 40 - and -> you needed MC gear for bwl – and - > blah blah blah. With the reset timer and the drop rates ect. it takes months of farming these places to get geared up. This is the problem, the gear check fights, the slow accumulation of gear. If a guild is behind it hard to catch up and they constantly leak there more mercenary members to the guilds ahead of them, then in turn grab ppl from the guilds behind them, and that mean more farming of the same old crap to help gear these ppl MEH.

Sorry but having to clear this or that to get started raiding in outland is a stupid idea and only perpetuates one of the big problems in the game. Thank god blizz gave us a chance to reset things and start on a more even footing. I mean in some ways the PvE system was just like the PvP that time spent was more important than skill (this does not mean the top pve or pvp players are not skilled it just means no matter how skilled you are if you can not put in as much time, like 40+ hours a week, you can not be at the top).

Now I understand you need a system that has progression but they need to give you more options and spread it over more instances so it does not become such a damn grind. I personally was super excited to be screwing around in outland throwing bombs off griffins last Tuesday instead of the normal mind numbing grind it out bwl clear on Tuesday.


"Look, it is too much effort to integrate the progression of lvl60 end game to TBC, let's just ridiculously increase the quest rewards at outlands, forget about some tuning and relating the attunements, blah blah, we will add 1/4th of the content and we will sell it for a full game price, so hurry up, copy and paste those helboars in blasted lands to hellfire peninsula!!!!"


don't like it don't buy it problem solved.

[DrOsmius]

I think most of the level 70 people will stay in outland long after they reach the limit, simply because the best loot and hardest battles are now there. So to all others here I want to say: wouldn't count on waiting for people to hit 70 and come back to the level 60 intances for fun.

I think you are spot on. I think the top end WoW 1.0 dungeons are incredible, lovely, etc and all...and despite the dozens of runs in them, still find them interesting, fun and appealing.

But there will be SO much to do in Outland even after reaching 70, and so many dungeons, all with gear upgrades, that I really don't think anyone will seriously do anything non-BC except as an odd lark here or there.

And while everyone "says" they will come back and raid the lower ones again....<shakes head>....it just won't happen. I was blessed to be part of a very laid-back loot-comes-last raiding guild, where the focus was seeing new stuff and loot was only to enable...but there was no doubt that loot was nonetheless a significant part, and if you took the loot away, then the runs end after dropping the boss once. People will not, in any significant way, come back from Outland to raid anything less than Naxx/AQ40, and even then, I seriously doubt they will do that for any length of time....one night there means one less night in Outland where you can get an upgrade.

As for places like LBRS? Nope. Places like Ramparts and the quests in Hellfire are easier with waaaaaay better loot. Those places will barely happen.

It is sad, but almost certain. I myself regard it as much like having missed prior MMO's...lots of people had lots of fun, and I would have too....but I missed it. Oh well. I'll have my fun with what is current, and not worry on what I missed, as there is no value in that.

[CorinthianSC]

Speaking from a guild leadership perspective, Blizzard HAD to make the old 40-mans obsolete. Otherwise, a guild would build up to support a 40-man raiding group, only to have to cut people once they hit BC content. It would be a leadership nightmare. Telling at least a dozen dedicated people that got the group to that point that they have to sit out now. Raiding guilds are already facing this in the transition from 40 to 25 man raiding. New guilds will have it MUCH easier because they don't have to deal with this.

My guild finally dropped Razorgore and Vael for the first time a week before Expansion. We never saw Broodlord. We never got past Skeram in AQ40. We're in Outland now, and noone is looking back. Now is our opportunity to 'catch up' with the guilds who progressed before we got established.

BTW, doing Mana Tombs with a bunch of 63-64's was awesome. :D

[Icefrost]

don't like it don't buy it problem solved.
False.

People who don't buy it have basically nothing to do but keep rolling new alts and play them to 60, but since there is no one at that level anymore, they'll just roll another alt and do it over again.
"Such a damn grind", no?

[djiss]

Those place are so used, the only reason we had to run BRM/Scholo/Strat/DM was for getting gear.
Just as an example, I sent to my priest a green dagger lv 59 who had twice stat than one I got in Strat (if I remember well...). So those lv 55+ only have to grind money to buy some cheap green in AH instead of running 5man.

IMO, if Blizz only update loot table a bit (put Blue superior to green but inferior to blue you get from outland) and refresh the encourter a bit, people will want to run them again.

Or even better, add farmable stuff you need for new recipe/quest from those dungeon. At least once in a while a 65 will search a group to run it. (or just 2man it... lol)

talking of that... Righteous Orb for crusader?
yes it less effective after 60 but still a good enchant.
yes you can farm the money and buy them from AH.
but if no one go to Strat to farm them...

[Loriel]

The whole problem is the entire system was way too tiered with long resets and limited drops, and only one path to follow with only one instance per tier. [...] With the reset timer and the drop rates ect. it takes months of farming these places to get geared up.Yes, exactly - that sums it up perfectly. The problem was indeed the instance reset timers and the low rate of drops. In order to gear up your raid you're looking at several months of farming that instance, and you're also up against a system that to a large extent relies on good old fashioned luck - especially in MC and BWL which are not token based. With the raid instances stacked like this, Blizzard really enforced a straight and linear progression from MC to BWL to AQ40 to Naxx, and you would be very hard pressed to skip a link in the chain.

In Blizzard's defense, only MC was in the game at release and all the later ones (ZG, BWL, AQ, Naxx) have been added in subsequent patches. As such I guess it makes sense for Blizzard to stack them, as they had to build the endgame while the game was actively running. I'm sure many hardcore raiding guilds were already bored with Molten Core when BWL was released, and they were just dying to get some new content to explore. Same deal with AQ and eventually Naxx, thereby creating the stepladder of raid progression.

Now, though, Blizzard have had the opportinity to design a new endgame from scratch, in the process hopefully making sure that it's balanced and it all fits together. If you've seen the raid progression chart at www.worldofraids.com, you'll see that there are multiple tasks that need to be done in order to progress in raiding, many of which include tasks that you can work on solo (reputation for keys) and in 5-mans (instances on Heroic mode). There is very little linearity in this structure, and at any given time I can choose which part of it I want to progress. Giving me choice is a good thing, forcing me to farm an instance that I'm already bored to tears with ... not so much.

This system is imo vastly superior to the static stepladder system of WoW 1.x. In terms of time spent it's not really any less hardcore than having to get the gear from MC, BWL etc, but it's a different kind of hardcore. By spreading the objective between solo, 5-man and raid tasks, players feel they constantly get rewarded and that they're gradually working towards a goal. If you look closely you'll see this design concept permeating all of BC, i.e. the game constantly gives you a pat on the back and rewards you for the time you put into the game. Mindless MC farming for a month without a single drop certainly does not convey the same sense of progress.

I know I'm getting a bit worked up over this, it's just that I find it hard to believe that somebody would actually want to hang on to the stacked WoW 1.x raid progression even after BC is released. Blizzard have abandoned it, and with very good reasons.

[JoeMuggs]

False.

People who don't buy it have basically nothing to do but keep rolling new alts and play them to 60, but since there is no one at that level anymore, they'll just roll another alt and do it over again.
"Such a damn grind", no?

Yes you’re right they should design a game 8 million people play around exactly what YOU want.

Point is the game is the way it is no one is holding a gun to your head and saying play if you don't like the game don't play it. If you like the way it was but don’t like the new direction sorry, but such is life. He is making the argument that the amount of content per $ (or whatever currency spent) is a ripoff, I disagree, but regardless it is capitalism what the price what it is because the supply and demand dictates that price. Its not like WoW was 6 cds and TBC is 4 so TBC should cost 4/6th of the cost of WoW that’s not the way things work. You think it’s not worth it then don't buy it.