a certain site

[Unknowable]

just a small gripe. i got hit with the warning stick (along with a post edit by the mod) recently for mentioning (not linking, just mentioning) a certain WoW reference site. i won't mention the site or the mod that warned me, but i've seen the site referenced plenty in the forums, and i've NEVER seen any gold ads on the site (was listed as the reason for the warning). i just ran across a few more instinces of the site in question being actually linked in a post. no real point to this, won't be surprised if the post gets deleted or at least closed, but i had to say something - if you're going to warn one person about mentioning a site, warn everyone that mentions that site. and yes, mods did post in the other threads that mentioned the site in question:cry:

edit - by "the forums" i mean THESE forums

[Fursphere]

thou shalt not question the mod gods!!!!!!!

[eXeel]

It doesn't necessarily have to have gold ads, but it is owned by the company selling the gold. That alone is enough.

[Valas Azuviir]

A) Stuff like this should be dealt with in PM to the Mod in question.

B) Case you haven't noticed, we're shorthanded as is. We can't catch every instance of a rules violation. We may strive to do so, but some will slip through the cracks. Also phrasing makes a difference. Stuff like: Check Not Named Site is more likely to cause us to do some alteration, rather than I checked Not Named Site and still can't find Mob/Item X. One can be classified as a form of advertising, the other does not meet that criteria.

C) Sometimes, you'll find links to the Not Named Site in very very old threads, they predate the time, that we had our own DB here. We could change those threads, but see point B. And sometimes, said links also predate our own time of Modship. So while it may appear that we posted in said thread as a Mod, we were still regular posters back then.

And almost forgot. As for the Not Named Site. They are owned by the biggest Gold selling company in the business. Which leads to Commandment 5 being applicable.


5. Thou Shalt Not Pimp or aid the Pimping of hacks, Cheats or Farming. Hacks and Cheats are 3rd party programs that allow you to alter the way a player interacts with a game. We do not support the use of these. You may not ask for help in creating a hack/cheat, a link to where you can find one, provide a link to where people can download one. However, the morality of using these programs is sometimes discussed and we allow these [within reason], unless it violates any other rule.

Advertising gold/item farming and any sale of in-game items for real world currency is strictly forbidden. Linking to these services and their affiliates is also prohibited.


Being owned in this case means, being an affiliate.

Rest of the rules (http://forums.worldofwar.net/showthread.php?t=386310). Take stock of Commandments 9 and 10 btw.

[Unknowable]

the exact usage was

"I've seen mobs through the windows. I don't remember which ones, but I do remember seeing most of them listed as "this mob has not been seen in quite some time and may no longer exist" on unnamed site"

i do realize that mods are understaffed, but it just rubbed me wrong. i appologize if this ticks anyone off, but i had to say something about it. not here, but on other forums, i've been on the wrong end of the ban stick for things that a specific mod doesn't like, but that don't violate the site's TOU, and it just raises my hackles whenever i see something like it happening. if the site in question is in fact owned by gold sellers, please tell me (please just PM me some of the more popular WoW reference sites that are owned by goldsellers) and i'll even stop visiting them, as i abhore their actions

edit - thanks for the info on that site Valas, my appologies. i didn't realize that they were owned by a gold seller

[snowieken]

Well, VA dealt with this pretty adequately, but as the mod in question I feel I should chip in. I do agree with Valas that a PM would have been the proper course of action here, though.

I can assure you that we don't use any double standards here. If I see any reference to the website in question, I will edit it out. As Valas said, we are only human and rather understaffed, so some of those posts manage to slip through the cracks - even when a moderator posts in the thread. We don't tend to read every single post, it is physically impossible if we want to keep our real life job and social life as well. Therefore we have a report button.

Mentioning the site is not the biggest crime someone can commit on these forums, and you definately can't get banned for it - unless you do it repeatedly and deliberately of course, or just blatantly to advertise. We just don't want to see that name here as it is, let alone with ".com" added like you did. You might as well post a link then. So, I edited it out with an explanation - I do think the phrase "warning stick" sounds a bit harsh.

[Tanitha]

Case you haven't noticed, we're shorthanded as is. We can't catch every instance of a rules violation. We may strive to do so, but some will slip through the cracks. Also phrasing makes a difference. Stuff like: Check Not Named Site is more likely to cause us to do some alteration, rather than I checked Not Named Site and still can't find Mob/Item X. One can be classified as a form of advertising, the other does not meet that criteria.

I'm going to take a chance here to ask a quick question for clarification, please. Typically I'll stay away from linking to any outside WoW related site as that requires the clearance of the mods before you can do so and I'm not a good enough judge to know if they're nefarious or nice (The site :grin:).

Is it acceptable to copy the relevant portion of the content (And I'm not speaking of That Site) and to reference - for example:

The prices of enchants have ...blah blah ... 150g and your grandmother ... blah

That way the person / site that created the content is referenced when partial content is used and there is no linking going on.

Is that ok?

[Justinledwards]

I cut'n'paste all the time.

I also say 'look it up' or 'when I searched'... everyone has their own places they can search.

However... what I would like to know, pro-actively (if you'll excuse the word) is there a site that we can link to that lists all items, spells etc?

[piscene]

Warning stick, shmarning stick. So you got a warning, is it that big a deal? I'm glad the Mods catch what they can and send out warnings, and I love these forums for being as "clean" as they are. If that means some people get a smack with the WS, I say smack away. It's not as though they are banning people for a casual mention. Best to just say thank you and move along. These forums rock!!

[Nitsujcm]

Wait... "the site" is owned by a gold seller? I think I know which site you are talking about and had no idea it was owned by a gold seller. I send people to it all the time in game (along with this site a few others) - but I do not support selling gold and will stop right away if it is the site I think it is. Could someone please send it to me? in a PM please...


On another note... I for one would say- POST THE SITE and let people know it is owned by Gold farmers (no link of course). I had no clue thus used them blindly.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Actually, there are two, well know sites. Both of them people will regularly link to (and neither of them are WoWWiki) with regards to WoW. Both of them are owned by the same major Gold Selling company -- the same one that had pulled similar tactics and bought up fansites for other MMOs in the past. They let the site more or less continue unmolested, but it is from what I've seen as a way to legitimize their business through fronts.

[Aerath]

There's 2 major databases both owned by goldsellers. The one with a T and the one with an A.

I'm not entirely happy about Wowwiki either, as they sport gold seller ads, but the data there is unavailable anywhere else which is why I suffer through.

To the best of my knowledge, wowhead is not sporting any gold seller ads. If you can't find something on our own database wwndata.worldofwar.net I can live with things being linked up there. Soon as someone can prove me they are not as legit as they should be, they'll be on the banned list too. Mind you, we do prefer people to use our own database if things are listed on there. 'Competitive site' clause and all that jazz.

CT is blocked as well, for the profile pages. Not sure about the screenshot one being actually blocked, but it's a no-go as well. They sport (if rarely) gold seller/powerleveler/bot ads. There's a profile page on here as well, if less fancy. Screenshots are fairly easily uploaded at tons of sites, such as imageshack.us

Last of the main sites we encounter would be one to upload your movies. It's literally plated in gold seller ads, and there's other options such as Youtube.

I think that about covers it all.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I'd definitely recommend linking to the data/materials found on this site, rather than an external source, if you are able.

And I wasn't aware of wowwiki's ads. Then again, I use the AdBlock+ extension, along with the NoScript extension for FireFox....

[Stigg]

Last of the main sites we encounter would be one to upload your movies. It's literally plated in gold seller ads, and there's other options such as Youtube.


We can't use the one that starts with a G?

[Tanitha]

Can I beg an indulgence and ask that somebody in Green please name the sites that are banned and have gold selling support?

Right now my mind is churning six ways from Sunday trying to figure out which ones are which. I know the T is bad and have my suspicions about the A that sounds like it should be in Harry Potter, but I don't know about any of the others.

Edit:
I think I've figured out which ones it is. Safer to just not link, I think.

[Stigg]

I think I've figured out which ones it is. Safer to just not link, I think.

Best post in this thread. :thumbsup:

[bwirum]

You know, all this would be so much easier if we actually could get WWNdata to work properly. That would also make it sooo much easier to work with the wiki. And all sorts of things...

Btw, in the meantime, can we link to stuff with a head in it? I don't know if there are ads there since I use noscript... Firefox FTW!

[inkmva]

Just to nitpick, not argue, the T and A sites arent owned by a company that does gold selling directly. It's a bit different, but the point is still legit I guess.

You need to go up a few levels in the owning structure of the companies and then down a few levels on another leg to find the gold farmers.

In the end though, ad revenue from the database sites ends up in the same holding company that also gets revenue from gold selling, but Im not really sure you can technically say the databases are owned by the gold sellers.

The gold sellers and databases are just owned by the same parent. Sort of.

Ah you got to love obscure companies and ventures.

Either way, the admins of this very forum set the rules regardless and by choosing to be a user you choose to adhere to said rules.

[sycamore]

I hope this isn't too OT, but does anyone know if there's any way of preventing google ads from displaying goldseller ads? For both visitors to a site, and for the person running the site.

It always used to *really* annoy me when I used my gmail account as my WoW account, and my emails from Blizzard always arrived plastered with ads for goldsellers.

Now I'm beginning to wonder if I should mention google and gmail at all, as it's impossible to avoid goldselling ads on either... I'm not trying to be disingenuous, I hope it's not read that way.

I really admire this site for its stance against these things (though you don't frown on account sharing as much as I think you should). And even if I didn't, it's their site and they can set whatever rules they like.

[Aerath]

Only if you actually have some sort of say in the ads displayed.

In the case of gmail, you're using their service, so you're stuck with their ads.

A large site sporting banners can make demands and have banners filtered out.

BTW - Tanitha, Allak was bought by IGE. There was a -massive- thread about it on their site, with tons of users spitting their gal over a legit site with a firm anti gold stance selling out like that. Sure, there's no gold seller ads and the owner stayed on - all part of the deal to make it look better and more innocent.
Thott at least never hid their outlook on things and certainly didn't turn around the other way when offered a large sack of coin. Don't mean I am a big fan of them all of a sudden though.

[snowieken]

This website also got offers from them, if I recall correctly. Admins never caved, though. :wink:

[moopy]

You know, all this would be so much easier if we actually could get WWNdata to work properly. That would also make it sooo much easier to work with the wiki. And all sorts of things...

Well, that is certainly a problem. When the utility of a good database site outstrips the utility of these forums, folks will (and do) take their ball and skipping rope and go elsewhere. It's important to remember that it's the userbase that makes a "community" site, and if it's just the same tedious old trolls (like me and dearest kcma) posting, the thing will go stale. New blood, new opinions, insights and stupid jokes are what keeps it fresh, useful and fun.

Some mods are better than others at explaining what's going on, but there's at least one with the tact and people skills of fresh roadkill (muahaha, I am evil, now they will all wonder if it's them, and most are utterly lovely :-). Such an extreme policy requires diplomacy in enforcement- as time-consuming as it can be.

I know that some of the users also try to gently enclue perps to save problems, and long may that continue- saves the overstretched mods the effort sometimes. However, I do think that when a new user accidentally oversteps what's acceptable, they should be offered a friendly correction rather than than a posey of barbed wire.

Whatever, almost every user here will have to employ a certain level of cognitive dissonace, Doublethink if you will, as sometimes you just need to look stuff up on that database site- especially in TBC, you can't always be sure if the quest is broken, or the mob is being insta-ganked when spawning- or in some cases spawning beneath the terrain but still pullable. We just have to be good at not mentioning it out loud, as it's politeness to our hosts (who are mostly lovely, as mentioned). I think it's all a balance- if the users try and indulge the mods, and the mods try and remember that the users make the thing, then all will be sunshine and bunnies.

[Valas Azuviir]

I'm going to take a chance here to ask a quick question for clarification, please. Typically I'll stay away from linking to any outside WoW related site as that requires the clearance of the mods before you can do so and I'm not a good enough judge to know if they're nefarious or nice (The site :grin:).

Is it acceptable to copy the relevant portion of the content (And I'm not speaking of That Site) and to reference - for example:

That way the person / site that created the content is referenced when partial content is used and there is no linking going on.

Is that ok?

I myself use a rather simple philosophy when it comes to these types of things. When in doubt, cut and paste. In case of images, host them on my on photobucket account, after removing any site linkage emblems, which may have been placed upon them.

Oh, and there's two sites that Aerath forgot.

One has to do with the faction/race/class divisions on the servers, it's completely riddled with goldselling adds.

The other place seems to be the home to a lot of hardcore raiders, they often have the newest intel for the game, but unfortunately, they got one of the biggest gold selling banners, I've ever seen, right smack on all their pages, whether it be the home page or one of their threads. Hence, why I often just cut and paste info, or save their images to my comp, doctor them as mentioned above and then set them on my own account to repost here.

Especially do that, when I find links to that site here, with folks using said links to point things out to folks. I then edit the "offending" posts and replace their links, with the sanitized material


Some mods are better than others at explaining what's going on, but there's at least one with the tact and people skills of fresh roadkill (muahaha, I am evil, now they will all wonder if it's them, and most are utterly lovely :-).

Pffft. I'm being a lot more patient with you folks, than I should be. Would probably solve a lot of problems, if I just drain the very life force out of the lot of you and then reanimate you folks as juju zombies or skeletal warriors under my control. Folks, would still get their info, and we'd have a lot less worries on our hands. :sinister:

[Elly]

I shan't pussy foot around, I'll be brave and mention the names (Thottbot and Allakhazam - can't spell it though I'm sure) (mods don't ban me please). Aye, those two sites and wowinterface were bought by IGE one of the largest (the largest?) gold selling company and as such we don't link through to them. The staff were kept on as salaried staff. The only reason wowwiki find themselves on that list is because they advertise gold selling and leveling services. If we can get around not having to advertise gold so can anyone else. But gold ads pay huge so they're hard to resist. When I tried to get adverts for this site on google I couldn't afford it as I was hugely out priced by gold sellers - pages and pages of them. They know where their market is and they'll pay to get there.

As for wwndata. I know it's not in the best working order and I can only apologise. We've had the devil of a time trying to get people who can help with the project, who have the staying power too. It's a long term project. We've been particularly quiet recently because we rather landed on our feet (yay) and rather than me throwing wobblies at Rush out of frustration on the lack of progress I've been getting to check out new updates every couple of days. I've not posted about it because I fear the kiss of death. Saying everything is going great, it's just sod's law it'll all go wrong from then on so I've kept quiet.

[maladroit2000]

As for wwndata. I know it's not in the best working order and I can only apologise. We've had the devil of a time trying to get people who can help with the project, who have the staying power too.

This is a real shame. I really like worldofwar.net - partly because it hasn't sold out but mainly because it generally has a nice atmosphere. However the database section is very mediocre in comparison with the competition. I would offer to help myself but I don't have the necessary skills. Surely there are some forums users who could help - perhaps some quiet lurkers who would like a challenge...

I would absolutely love worldofwar to be my only port of call.

[Elly]

No, no we have someone, well more than one now:) That's what I meant about getting shown an update every couple of days. It's been so stop...start since we began I was beginning to think it would never happen. That all changed maybe 4 weeks ago.

WWNdata has been fixed last night btw - the search and log in problems. Rush updated in the support forum earlier in case anyone missed that.

[OneMadOgre]

I shan't pussy foot around, I'll be brave and mention the names (Thottbot and Allakhazam - can't spell it though I'm sure) (mods don't ban me please). Aye, those two sites and wowinterface were bought by IGE one of the largest (the largest?) gold selling company and as such we don't link through to them. The staff were kept on as salaried staff. The only reason wowwiki find themselves on that list is because they advertise gold selling and leveling services. If we can get around not having to advertise gold so can anyone else. But gold ads pay huge so they're hard to resist. When I tried to get adverts for this site on google I couldn't afford it as I was hugely out priced by gold sellers - pages and pages of them. They know where their market is and they'll pay to get there.

As for wwndata. I know it's not in the best working order and I can only apologise. We've had the devil of a time trying to get people who can help with the project, who have the staying power too. It's a long term project. We've been particularly quiet recently because we rather landed on our feet (yay) and rather than me throwing wobblies at Rush out of frustration on the lack of progress I've been getting to check out new updates every couple of days. I've not posted about it because I fear the kiss of death. Saying everything is going great, it's just sod's law it'll all go wrong from then on so I've kept quiet.

I wish I still had the time I once had Elly. :cry:

[Spennce]

Just for the record a little T and A never hurt anyone. I personally love T and A. :wink2:

[Tanitha]

Just for the record a little T and A never hurt anyone. I personally love T and A.

I'm assuming you're not referring to the evil websites that are second cousins to gold sellers here?

[Spennce]

Yes there are evil T&A websites, but i tend to avoid them as they can bog your computer down.

[Elly]

Yes there are evil T&A websites, but i tend to avoid them as they can bog your computer down.

Aye, I think we get the drift what T&A you're talking about Spennce, this thread definitely isn't about those sites though. :shocked:

[moopy]

Pffft. I'm being a lot more patient with you folks, than I should be. Would probably solve a lot of problems, if I just drain the very life force out of the lot of you and then reanimate you folks as juju zombies or skeletal warriors under my control. Folks, would still get their info, and we'd have a lot less worries on our hands. :sinister:

Sorry to dissapoint you but:

a) You're not part of the problem, mostly (I know, dreadful letdown, if it makes you happy I will refer to you as "The Evil One" for a small fee though :-).

b) I don't have any life force, very or otherwise. I run on dark chocolate. Sad but true.

[OneMadOgre]

Someday sir, you and I will be competing for this power source. May the best man win.

[Aswer]

Slightly OT, but AdSense can not always be properly filtered. I've had problems with my Clients' AdWords ads appearing in places where we didn't want them, and vice-versa. Many of the sites that sometimes sport AdSense powered gold selling ads have nothing to do with gold selling. Micromanaging campaigns and AdSense deals can help, but it's not 100% foolproof. Some pages exist cause AdSense lets them pay up, so this is not a simple matter to address.

Just my .02 drachma. ;)