Who do you respect more? [Archive] - Unofficial World of Warcraft Forums

kcma

03-03-2007, 10:15 PM

Yes, because its totally possible to "hold and manage aggro" in PvP. =P The fact is, managing multiple targets, especially when one or more of them have aggro dumps so you have to reaquire them, is NOT a PvP skill. Honor leeching on the other hand, IS apparently a PvP skill and can get them the warlord's set all the same.

And if they are a jerk, then I don't respect them at all regardless of what they're wearing.

you have the mis-conception that wearing top-gear = top pvp-er. not even close to reality. ppl with top gear is just that, nothing more. u think holding aggro from multiple mob is any challenge to someone who has the lightening reflex to become a good pvp-er?

it's like comparing a guy who wins world tournament in street fighter arcade to a guy who can beat the game on 1 quarter. now, a guy who can beat all the scrubs in your local arcade by doinog the same hadoken -> shoryuken over and over is NOT a good pvp-er. and guess who would hold all the fastest time record in pve around of street fighter? top pvp-er.

ppl who are great pvp-ers will learn pve contents easily, everytime every game. reverse isn't always true.

Roogger

03-03-2007, 10:35 PM

Looking at the gear wouldn't make me decide.

A highend pvper that worked for his gear, I'll respec that but there are some that just afkbot in bg's so, unless its arena gear then ... meh.

PvP>PvE

Gealach

03-03-2007, 10:36 PM

In PvP you generally identify the highest priority target and kill it. When you tank the whole point is that you gauge your aggro on each target and switch constantly to stay ahead of group healing aggro. PvPers don't have to constantly switch targets, they switch only when a higher priority target presents itself or when their current target has escaped or died.

Gauging aggro is more than reflexes, it means being equally aware of your entire group and responding when something goes wrong, and having a good feel for how much aggro each of your abilities generates. In PvP if someone goes for the priest and they die, fine 20 seconds or less later they're up again. In PvE losing that priest may mean a wipe, expensive repairs, and waiting for an encounter to reset.

The PvP mindset that "reflexes > all" is the best example I can think of as to why top PvPers are almost never MTs in raid guilds.

On the healer side of the equation, long boss fights require calibrating your gear and heals and timing things to manage overheal while still handling damage spikes. Once again, failure means money for repairs and a wait. Managing overheal is something that is almost completely unnecessary in PvP. If something goes wrong, mash fear/bubble and drive on. The consequences of failure are once again reduced to a 20 second or less wait at the spirit healer.

As for gear nor making for a great PvPer, that was the basis for judgement the OP held up. Your reply didn't make any distinction.

THe majority of PvP skills that PvEers don't necessarily have include, I suppose, knowledge of terrain exploits in Alterac Valley, ways to avoid fighting in WSG when you have the flag, and how to gauge the resource collection rates to see whether assaulting more locations is needed or if you should just sit and defend what you have in Arathi Basin. Oh, and the speed with which you hop on your epic mount. Color me impressed. =P

kcma

03-03-2007, 10:48 PM

nothing in WOW is that hard. the classes are finite. so there's is nothing that a player with good reflex and understanding cannot accompanish. that includes holding aggro to multiple mob, not that hard.

pvp is much less finite than pve, and that's where player skill truely shows. if PvP is NBA, PvE is NCAA. every NBA player can play with the college kids but not every college kid will make it to the pro-leauge. and some college kids will be better players than most if not all pro players.

***

again, by top, i'm assuming the epitome in the respective field. not simply someone with highest KB or someone who's progressed through all the instances.

think about it Gealach, given enough time and the same group of team you play with. EVERY instance will be finished. no matter how hard it is. remember before BC? given the same 40 ppl and 4 days a week, MC/BWL/AQ/Naxx are all defeated. it's just a matter of time. but most of these raiders will NEVER become a great pvper, no matter how much time they put into it. now, take 40 of the best pvper and give them the same gear, i hope you see where i'm going now. PvE is simply too finite and... easy.

Gealach

03-03-2007, 11:08 PM

nothing in WOW is that hard. the classes are finite. so there's is nothing that a player with good reflex and understanding cannot accompanish. that includes holding aggro to multiple mob, not that hard.

I believe that is true, but I also believe that cuts both ways, PvP AND PvE. And there are plenty of PvPers who don't seem to be able to handle multiple mob aggro so for SOME PvPers it appears to be very hard. Even wearing HW/GM gear.

but most of these raiders will NEVER become a great pvper, no matter how much time they put into it

Unsupported statement and it contradicts your other one, I'm sorry. There's no evidence to suggest that people who don't bother to PvP because they don't enjoy it (or don't enjoy being around the e-peen-obsessed folks who do it all the time) couldn't aquire all of those skills if they put in the time. Skill is aquired, but if someone can never aquire it then what you are talking about is innate ability, not skill. And network latency and game design nerf the impact of innate ability nicely, this isn't a first person shooter like Counterstrike after all.

You cannot prove or offer credible evidence that PvP skills aren't accessible to those who prefer PvE. Its just a hypothesis based on your anecdotal experience.

I'm not saying the PvP crowd cannot aquire PvE skills, but I AM saying that PvE people can learn PvP skills just fine. Where the 2 overlap you can say skills in one help you with the other, but BOTH have skills outside that overlap. Someone who is genuinely good at one should be able to do just fine at the other given the time to learn.

In any 40 man raid, just as in any collection of 40 PvPers, there are some who are really good and some who are not so good. In raids it is the best ones who do so well that they provide margin for the not-so-good ones to not cause the raid to fail. You see the same thing in any given AV bunch.

Your poor experiences grouping with raid-focused people is just as likely to be biased by the not-so-good raiders as my poor experiences with extreme PvP druids who wear HW/GM gear but cannot manage to contribute ANYTHING but dps (no, not tanking either) to a PvE run.

PvE = PvP, neither is better than the other.

Wiired

03-03-2007, 11:13 PM

Gealach, I'm going to attempt to debate your points.

In PvE, you and your group are doing the same things over and over again. You get to know the dungeon, and you get to know the players. This would make it a lot easier essentially to redo PvE encounters, and eventually get tier 5 etc. gear. PvP, however, is very different.

In PvP you are fighting against new people each time, as well as fighting alongside new people each time. You are constantly going to be switching strategies just to adapt to the players you are with. You might finish one battleground, and when you get into it again a little bit later the next time, you will already have to redo your plans. One might argue that you are earning how to fight each class, but each player plays their class a little differently, has different gear, etc. You don't get this diversity in PvE.

Another issue PvPers have are patches. With each new patch Blizzard releases, certain classes are changed. This makes them have to completely revamp their strategy in how to kill them. A couple of examples of this are Mass Dispell, and Cloak of Shadows.

So, the only skills PvPers don't have that PvEers do are stopping in between each wave, and farming for gold for consumables so you don't die when your tank loses aggro. Oh, and long corpse runs. Color me impressed =P

(Just making this clear -- I'm not trying to reject your thoughts, you made a great argument. I was just stating my own.)

Mallstrop

03-03-2007, 11:35 PM

In PVE, the difficulty is set, you're facing a very well defined set of paramaters and attempting to beat the encounter in the way that it was intended to be beaten.

In ARENA PVP you're forced to take on ever changing encounters based on the team you face. The better you get, the better the teams you have to face. You could say the difficulty scales with your ability.

BG PVP is different, it's just taking on who ever wants to join on the other side, you could get to GM without ever killing anything but the biggest noobs.

Icefrost

03-03-2007, 11:36 PM

To keep things simple:

Gear equals to time spent getting it, rather than how well you can cope with others or move your fingers on the keyboard. Sure, I can see from their gear that they've probably spent a lot more time playing than I have, but I really don't give a damn how long you've played and how much you've paid for your playing, if the first thing you tell me is something insulting, or maybe something that has a lot to do with what I just said...you get the idea.

So its fully possible that I'd rather go with some level one whos visiting the city for the first time in his life. Of course, the reverse could be true as well. Who knows? It all depends on what kinds of people they are.

But if this question assumes I don't talk to anyone of them, then I don't think I have any reason to vouch for anyone. Purple colors just don't charm me.

No vote from me.

Gealach

03-03-2007, 11:42 PM

Patches alter PvE encounters as well as PvP encounters. Just look at all the druids complaining that the next patch will make it harder for them to tank, or patches where a given boss can't be defeated using a certain tactic anymore.

You make a good point that as often as not you are facing new players in PvP every time. But terrain is much more important in PvP than it is in PvE, and that does not change.

In Alterac Valley, differences in players don't matter that much anyway, because since the introduction of battlegroups everyone on each side just runs to the other side's base to kill the commanders first anyway. So in AV its pretty much all PvE pretending to be PvP in any case.

In Warsong Gulch you set up based on terrain, not players. Same with AB. There's no 'sizing up the enemy', and really a victory doesn't depend on 'lightning reflexes' so much as it does on overall DPS and how its focused. But guess what, that's what matters in raids too.

Arenas will change a number of things tho. On the one hand, individual ability will account for more. On the other hand, static teams means its possible to get to know their play style much better, just like getting to know a boss. Also, differences between classes will also account for more. I also think that a lot of people who spent a lot of time with PvP and talk big about their 'skillz' will find themselves to be a washout in arenas.

I still maintain that in terms of overall ability, PvE = PvP. The little 5 man and early raid content that everyone does matters very little as it does not distinguish a good PvEer from a bad one; it was all designed to be accessible to the majority of players regardless of skill. Fewer than 1% of all players have been through the highest end raid content, whether they were primarily PvPers or PvEers. So I can't agree with you that endgame PvE content is something anyone can do. Clearly the statistics suggest otherwise. And if someone says that this is just a function of time, well the same could be said of PvP as well.

NOYB

04-03-2007, 12:21 AM

Icefrost

04-03-2007, 12:26 AM

I think a lot of people here are no longer answering the original question. Sure, I understand that it all leads you to the ongoing conversation of which side of the game can be considered harder and sure, I could jump in too, but I'll rather stay on the subject and my previous answer for that matter.:wink:

Idol

04-03-2007, 12:52 AM

The PvPer. Just because I prefer PvP, not because I think it takes more skill/teamwork.

Gealach

04-03-2007, 01:15 AM

PvE is cause and effect.
PvP has no such constraints.

In PvE players can effectively control the mobs' actions by utilizing a set of skills. In PvP the means of control is much more difficult. One cannot merely taunt a player off of your priest. One cannot guess how a player will react to getting attacked either. He/she may simply run away.

And having them run away makes the PvP encounter harder how? The priest can just fear with abandon in PvP anyway to protect themself, something they cannot do in an instance when they face the possibility of pulling more groups of enemies. Yes, PvE situations are more limited, but they are also more limiting.

PvP is more inherently more difficult, because of the unknown.

And the unknown is? The terrain and objectives are all known. Its the same 9 classes as always. No battleground has killing large numbers of players as its objective. And the ways in which players can most effectively support/hinder achieving those objectives are just as known as any boss. What you say is only really true in duels (which don't gain you pvp rewards) and possibly arenas.

If PvE is so easy, why haven't you killed Kel'thuzad yet? Come on, what's stopping you? I'm sure I'll be amused to hear your answer.

I'm not saying all PvP is easy, that would be arrogant. But so is calling all PvE easy.

Herald of Doom

04-03-2007, 01:29 AM

And the unknown is? The terrain and objectives are all known. Its the same 9 classes as always. No battleground has killing large numbers of players as its objective. And the ways in which players can most effectively support/hinder achieving those objectives are just as known as any boss. What you say is only really true in duels (which don't gain you pvp rewards) and possibly arenas.
Uhm.. Have you pvp'd much? 9 classes, 3 talent trees, massive amount of gear changes, tons of differently skilled people. Do I save my counterspell for the heal or is the opponents life low enough to blast him down after I cs his nuke? Is person x skilled and do I need to pop my trinket and use my cooldowns or can I kite him? Those are not questions you need to ask in pve except the first time you enter.

If PvE is so easy, why haven't you killed Kel'thuzad yet? Come on, what's stopping you? I'm sure I'll be amused to hear your answer.

I'm not saying all PvP is easy, that would be arrogant. But so is calling all PvE easy.
Let's see. Do I want to kill Kel'thuzad? Well, not now, but prior to TBC, damn right. Do I have the time to dedicate 4 nights a week to it? Hell no. Now the same thing is true for r14 gear ofcourse, but r14 =/= good pvp'er.

So talking strictly to the OP's question, neither really unless I know that they combine lots of time to play with actually playing the game properly (there's no skill in WoW :p). If you're talking a good pvp'er vs good pve'er, the pvp'er. This is coming from someone who spent 2 months in MC and BWL in his summerholiday and got rank 10, with great respect for both my pvp premade and my raidgroup (some people were in both actually ;) )!

HoD

Gealach

04-03-2007, 01:57 AM

Uhm.. Have you pvp'd much? 9 classes, 3 talent trees, massive amount of gear changes, tons of differently skilled people.

Uhm, have you PvE'd much? Way more than 9x3 sets of mob types and abilities, and the stat ranges and resists are as all over the map as player gear is. Yes, I know it doesn't matter that much but neither do all the hypothetical pvp specs you're talking about, since there is a finite set of effective ones, and you don't generally have to adjust your tactics that significantly. As for gear, most of it is minimally distinguishable from other gear in terms of stats. Remember, I'm not claiming PvP is easy, but I expect encounters like Kael'thas to be difficult IN SPITE of knowing what we're in for. Knowing what a boss does doesn't mean defeating him is easy, it just means you have an idea what to do in order to come out successful.

Do I save my counterspell for the heal or is the opponents life low enough to blast him down after I cs his nuke? Is person x skilled and do I need to pop my trinket and use my cooldowns or can I kite him? Those are not questions you need to ask in pve except the first time you enter.

In an ideal world things always occur exactly as you expect them to when you enter. Unfortunately this isn't an ideal world. To take SL as an easy example most people are familiar with, you don't know when a cabal assassin is going to gank your healer as they sit down to mana up, and you can never predict things like Blackheart the Inciter knocking you up into a bit of wall that causes him to evade lock and reset.

Let's see. Do I want to kill Kel'thuzad? Well, not now, but prior to TBC, damn right. Do I have the time to dedicate 4 nights a week to it? Hell no. Now the same thing is true for r14 gear ofcourse, but r14 =/= good pvp'er.

Then the real distinction isn't PvP or PvE is it? Its just that some folks are better players than others, regardless of whether they're into PvP or not. Until a percentage of the player base large enough to make scientific notation unnecessary has killed Illidan, its ridiculous to state that PvE is automatically easier than PvP.

I'd imagine that the number of PvPers on any given server that are better players overall than all of the PvErs on their server is small enough to count on the fingers of one hand, if that. So in general I'd guess that the differences are minimal. I feel like I've killed way more clueless draenei shamans than grouped with clueless raiders. For sure it seems the bulk of PvPers I've played against are no smarter than the computer AI, just more random.

Tomar

04-03-2007, 02:47 AM

PvE is the majority of the game. PvP is great fun and requires large amounts of skill and gear (and build) but it is just a smaller part of the game. PvE wins.

Herald of Doom

04-03-2007, 03:52 AM

Uhm, have you PvE'd much? Way more than 9x3 sets of mob types and abilities, and the stat ranges and resists are as all over the map as player gear is. Yes, I know it doesn't matter that much but neither do all the hypothetical pvp specs you're talking about, since there is a finite set of effective ones, and you don't generally have to adjust your tactics that significantly. As for gear, most of it is minimally distinguishable from other gear in terms of stats. Remember, I'm not claiming PvP is easy, but I expect encounters like Kael'thas to be difficult IN SPITE of knowing what we're in for. Knowing what a boss does doesn't mean defeating him is easy, it just means you have an idea what to do in order to come out successful.

Just like any rpg there's always a trick to any pve encounter. Once you know the trick it is not hard. In WoW's case, the "trick" is usually having enough hp/mana/resistance unfortunately :/ I enjoyed doing aq20, that encounter with the eggs (I have a crap memory for names :) ) was loads of fun. But again, not hard. I simply asked advice, checked one site and voila, I knew EXACTLY what to do and when to do it. Granted, if you're the person writing the guides for all the followers, it's going to be a lot harder (but then again I distinctly remember killing Lucifron on our first night with 40 people who've never been in there before..) I'll admit it, I never did aq40/Nax nor did I get past Firemaw so I probably missed some of the more challenging encounters. But I never went against the top pvp teams either. So I say, ONLY those that are considered top pvp'ers (is Vurtne in the house?) and who killed Kelthuzad can vote for real :grin:

As I am one of the few people without a lvl 70, I cant comment on the SL thing. Though looking at wowwiki makes me want to get there even faster, looks like a fun fight :)

ps:as for the 9x3 thing.. Lets take a mage: 40/0/21, 41/0/20, 40/21/0, 41/20/0. And thats just the builds focusing on heavy arcane, who all have very different strategies.

HoD

Rowscarde

04-03-2007, 04:02 AM

id have to /agree with kcma on this one. The top notch pvp-er is playing against the hardest form of competition, other players. You cannot compare ai of a program to that of a human. Ive known many pvp guilds who decided to run some raids for a change n they have smashed through 40 man raids with next to no wipes ie mc. ( of course it takes some knowledge of the fights).

Id definitely be chearing the pvper. However for the pve-er to get his/her gear alot more effort/time is put in in my opinion as alot of the gear needs planning and org. to get.

mender of bad soles

04-03-2007, 04:22 AM

gealach, While i respect your point of view, I disagree.

you said there are more then 9x3 types of mobs, yes that is true, but they are always in the same place. When you raid MC you bring FR gear. why? becuase you know that Fire dmg will be there. when I pvp I can't do that becuase I have little idea what im going to face. I have to be ready for anything, whereas in pve I know what im going to see in MC, and I know what could go wrong. In pvp we have no such assurance, thus pvp requires more skill to be succesful at.

Props to the pvper, imo.

Your Average WoW Player

04-03-2007, 04:22 AM

I have to say that today, the top end PvEer stands out more, as working with 20-40 guys to get that Tier 4, 5, 6 etc. stuff is a little harder then working with 5 guys in the Arena to get the Arena awards, and anybody these days can get the High Warlord Stuff no problem.

Gealach

04-03-2007, 04:35 AM

as for the 9x3 thing.. Lets take a mage: 40/0/21, 41/0/20, 40/21/0, 41/20/0. And thats just the builds focusing on heavy arcane, who all have very different strategies.

But it doesn't take wildly different strategies to defeat folks with all those specs. That's the point. The differences are minor, especially since most pvpers aren't very good at pvp. All those specs sheep the same, counterspell the same, root the same. Some will do more damage than others, some will have slightly more mana efficiency than the others, etc. It doesn't really amount to a whole lot of difference.

Are you really trying to tell me that you actually try to figure out what spec someone is before you burn them into the ground? Seriously? Because I never have to. And from the sound of all the pvpers that post on the official forums, when they whine about x class being overpowered and talk about some theoretical mage that can POM/pyroblast you then iceblock and let their water elemental shoot at you for a bit, it seems many other pvpers don't really think about things like spec either.

I'm trying to think of a situation where I didn't burn down the majority of classes in what is essentially the same way with my warlock and I just can't. I certainly didn't waste time strategizing or trying to suss out what the other person is going to do next because it generally doesn't matter.

you said there are more then 9x3 types of mobs, yes that is true, but they are always in the same place. When you raid MC you bring FR gear. why? becuase you know that Fire dmg will be there. when I pvp I can't do that becuase I have little idea what im going to face. I have to be ready for anything, whereas in pve I know what im going to see in MC, and I know what could go wrong. In pvp we have no such assurance, thus pvp requires more skill to be succesful at.

In MC (the least skill-dependant instance I've ever had to endure) if you don't bring FR gear you just die. In pvp, no mage is so powerful that you can't manage to defeat them without FR gear, because frankly no player is as powerful as any boss, not by 2 orders of magnitude. It doesn't matter what you face, because no player is enough more powerful than you that you cannot manage to kill them either solo or duo given that you choose the right time to attack.

And its not like it takes a genius to figure out what people are going to do in a place like WSG, because they have to grab a flag from your base and take it to theirs. THat's predictable. If they don't, then just do it yourself and you win. THere are limited approaches and routes, and really you can bet they're basically doing the same things you are. In AV the objectives are similarly predictable and the rest is just fluff. How many AVs have you been in recently where it wasn't everyone except the honor leeches running to the other sides base and trying to be the first to DPS him down?

I will say this, that for most classes its harder to stay alive in pvp than in pve. But the consequences of dying in pvp are barely even an inconvenience, so that doesn't really matter.

I will grant that getting to the top of the ladder in arena pvp will likely be more difficult than anything I've seen so far pve. But the vast majority of pvpers are no better than pve-ers and a healthy number are worse than average.

Mithos the hero

04-03-2007, 05:47 AM

I respect PvE over PvE for the soul reason, that the PvE takes a certan amount of team work that the PvP dosent.

PvP, it may take forever, but even noobs can get the HWL gear. To be maxed in raid gear shows (imo) a better player.

But either one would probibly pwn...

Mallstrop

04-03-2007, 02:59 PM

The old PVP didn't take much team work, it was more based on time played that skill to get to GM. A good team would make it easier and faster but I don't think skill really came into it.

The new arena system though is a third team work, a third skill and a third class balance (maybe more than a third)

monolith

04-03-2007, 03:21 PM

To me, it's nothing to do with gear. PvP, PvE. I don't care.

Respect is earned in the transactions we make with one another every single day, be it in the real world, or the World of Warcraft.

Rude, selfish, ignorant? No respect.

Generous, Thoughtful, Kind? Respect.

An Asshat is an Asshat, Uber leet gear or not.

cyradis2003

04-03-2007, 04:25 PM

Twoflower

04-03-2007, 05:22 PM

done both, and i have to say, both have no life :P

today i respect these guys most who play little, dont achieve the biggest things, but still enjoy the game.

If i have to choose though, i'd say PvE.

laffncry

04-03-2007, 06:17 PM

So...you're standing in orgrimmar/stormwind, and you see a level 70, looking like he's on his way to prom. No, I don't mean a tuxedo...but he's all made-up in his best outfit. You go over and inspect him to find that he has amazing gear...some of which you've never even seen.

Which would you respect more? A high warlord, decked out in full garb, arena rewards, BG reward, etc. Or do you respect the raider, who has his support gear on...looking perfectly team-oriented? Keep in mind, you're assuming each has comparable skills to merit his gear...

So, who would you respect more? A top end PvPer? or a Top end PvEer?

i do respect both. i mean i respect everybody in the game. regardless of what they can do. i respect the way PvPer plays and at the same time respect the PvEer for being good support!

PlayThemAll

05-03-2007, 03:34 PM

I say PvE only because I think its harder top float through the game.

In PvP, you can completely suck and never win a battle and eventually get enough honor, to get rewards. It would tak ean incredibly long time but it could happen.

In PvE you simply cannot get that stuff on your own. And if you suck, you probably wont stay with a group long enough to get it. It takes skill and teamwork to get the high end rewards, esp considering the low drop rates and competition for the pieces.

I don't mean to totally discount PvP, I know there are a lot of highly skilled players out there. But based solely in inspecting another player, I would have to go with the PvE'r.

Herald of Doom

05-03-2007, 04:06 PM

In PvE you simply cannot get that stuff on your own. And if you suck, you probably wont stay with a group long enough to get it. It takes skill and teamwork to get the high end rewards, esp considering the low drop rates and competition for the pieces.

I thought that too. Then I joined a certain raidguild, noticed certain mages who were doing LESS damage and who were decursing LESS got invited before me. /gquit . It's a lot more common than you think. In fact, my nephew who's horrible at playing a mage had full tier2. He wouldnt even have gotten a trial run at the raidgroup I joined after the mentioned fiasco of my first raidguild :/

HoD

kcma

05-03-2007, 05:00 PM

again, you guys are not talking about "top" pve-er and "top" pvp-er. you're just talking about high ranked pvp-er and ppl who've progressed far into pve content. pvp require reflex, dexterity and ability to anticipate in ways that pve can never challenge you (that's why you can learn bosses and instances).

Kitano

05-03-2007, 05:11 PM

I've known some exceptionally well geared players that couldn't tell their @ss from a hole in the ground. This goes for both PVE and PVP. Being well geared is not necessarily an indication of talent. A half-@ssed PVPer can go into BG's and camp out near where there's fighting and still gain honor so getting gear doesn't necessarily require any work (though to get a lot of gear in a marginally reasonable time frame does). Even someone who PVPs constantly and doesn't contribute isn't necessarily a top player. It could be a matter of right place at the right time by getting into a group with better PVPers.

As for PVE, having great gear mens that you were in a raid and you either won a roll or had the DKP to spend for that gear. It doesn't have to mean that you fully contributed to the group in a way to EARN that gear.

As far as which takes more skill, I'd say they both take different types of skill. PVPers and PVEers develop unique skill sets for either and they really are not comparable. I've PVPed and I'm primarly a PVEer. I prefer PVE greatly over PVP since I enjoy the group dynamic of taking down mobs and bosses. Some people prefer the other way around. It's all about maximizing your ability in the area you choose to persue. You have to react very quickly in PVP to multiple players targeting you as well as switching targets to take them down and reacting to what the group is doing. In PVE you have to also react to multiple targets targeting you as well as managing your aggro and following group orders and reacting to unexpected pulls, etc. There's a great deal of talent in both.

In order for me to respect either I'd have to actually know their abilities and that they are actually capable players. The gear itself means little as far as knowing how they play.

PlayThemAll

05-03-2007, 05:16 PM

An Asshat is an Asshat, Uber leet gear or not.

What more needs to be said? :thumbsup:

Xlorep DarkHelm

05-03-2007, 07:47 PM

So...you're standing in orgrimmar/stormwind, and you see a level 70, looking like he's on his way to prom. No, I don't mean a tuxedo...but he's all made-up in his best outfit. You go over and inspect him to find that he has amazing gear...some of which you've never even seen.

Which would you respect more? A high warlord, decked out in full garb, arena rewards, BG reward, etc. Or do you respect the raider, who has his support gear on...looking perfectly team-oriented? Keep in mind, you're assuming each has comparable skills to merit his gear...

So, who would you respect more? A top end PvPer? or a Top end PvEer?

Actually neither. I'd respect them equally, but I wouldn't give them any more "special" status than I would anyone else in the game.

kcma

05-03-2007, 08:16 PM

Zezeh

05-03-2007, 08:32 PM

I’d respect the PvP’er more. I’m not going to go into detail, but you can’t rite a guide on PvP, you have to adapt to the situation… I’m sure someone will counter this somehow, but that’s how I feel.

Tanitha

05-03-2007, 08:43 PM

I'm not sure why there is a distinction between the two. World of Warcraft is a game that blends PvE and PvP in a most satisfying way. Yes, I understand people will focus more on raiding or on PvP but there is also a very happy middle ground.

For myself, I will tend to look at a PvP focused player with a bit more respect. Simply because they've taken up the challenge of madness, frustration and so on to level in a very hostile environment. From what I've experienced so far (And high level instances are not a part of this) a PvP encounter typically requires a bit more thought, twitches and reflexes and are fairly humiliating sometimes. It's not as if you can work off a guide with a raid leader offering instruction. There's no "Play this way to win" scenario to it.

JudgeDredd

06-03-2007, 12:00 AM

IMO, respect for top PVP and top PVE would be the same. The majority of it all comes down to committing to memory previous encounters to the point where you don't have to think, you just react.

Shellar

06-03-2007, 12:21 PM

So...you're standing in orgrimmar/stormwind, and you see a level 70, looking like he's on his way to prom. No, I don't mean a tuxedo...but he's all made-up in his best outfit. You go over and inspect him to find that he has amazing gear...some of which you've never even seen.
And that's why I would pay more attention to a fully decked-out PvEer. Let's face it, PvP gear is not particularily exotic - anyone can stroll over to the vendor, examine all the pieces in detail, and try them on via Dressing Room. On other hand, a rare drop from a boss in a high-tier instance is not something that you see every day.

JaedxRapture

06-03-2007, 03:23 PM

mcu

06-03-2007, 05:26 PM

What if you get jumped by hordies/allies on the way to the prom?
Then gimme the PVPer please -just in case :D

Bacardiiii

06-03-2007, 05:28 PM

But PVP is ftw its really the way the game should be played

Xlorep DarkHelm

06-03-2007, 06:33 PM

Interesting opinion you have Bacardiiii. Not one I share, however.

Fursphere

06-03-2007, 07:13 PM

Neither.

"I have more time to play then you" != respect

grendon

06-03-2007, 07:16 PM

I would choose a top end pveER because I like PvE more than PvP. :thumbsup:

Xlorep DarkHelm

06-03-2007, 07:33 PM

Neither.

"I have more time to play then you" != respect

Bingo .

Gealach

07-03-2007, 07:20 AM

Somebody who can think and reason, and who's likely as intelligent as you. It's really a bigger challenge.

You'd think so. But I keep dealing with warlocks who fight with their blueberry out instead of a useful demon, draenei shamans who seem to think ghost wolf = kitty form and try to fight in it, and people with such tunnel vision that they don't notice me eating a mana biscuit 10 yards away. I swear it makes me feel like I'm abusing mentally handicapped people.

In my experience, PvP is only occasionally challenging. It is often amusing tho.

kcma

07-03-2007, 10:07 AM

Bingo .

again, you guys dont distinguish between a good pvper/pve-er from ppl who simply just play alot :)

it's like, comparing a burger joint who's been around for 80+ years to us at providence. when you say top, mean it. some of the top players play in a lvl that you can't even imagine.

xxlebox

07-03-2007, 10:11 AM

Although I might like the burger joint better than your providence.
---
I voted for PvP, because it takes alot more skill and thinking, than PvE does. IMO (I say that because I don't feel like discussing it).
---
I mean, you've probably all heard of Swifty once, and seen his movies. That's what I mean with PvP being far more respectful than PvE. Anyone can PvE, not just anyone can PvP (good).

Moustgaard

07-03-2007, 12:34 PM

Neither, anybody who spends that much time on WoW, need to take a breake, go outside and enjoy the sun,snow or whatever.
Anyway my respect for them lies between "men who braids other mens hair" and " the stuff I find in belly button"

Xlorep DarkHelm

07-03-2007, 06:40 PM

again, you guys dont distinguish between a good pvper/pve-er from ppl who simply just play alot :)

it's like, comparing a burger joint who's been around for 80+ years to us at providence. when you say top, mean it. some of the top players play in a lvl that you can't even imagine.

Actually I can imagine. see, I've been a top PvP'er, and a top PvE'er in online games for a very long time. In the end, all I see is some tactics are learned, and a lot of extra time is put into the game. I don't see anything of value to suddenly make me think "wow, this guy/girl rocks". I see time investment and that's about it. I see a very similar behavior pattern emerge from both top PvE and top PvP players -- the "I'm better than you" attitude. People who place themselves at the top of the food chain, tend to look down on everyone else. Selfishness, greed, and boasting seems to be the running theme among most people I've seen in those positions. It is a rare treat to see someone in a position like that who still runs around and treats everyone else as equals.

Status in some "upper echelon" guild, or spiffy gear doesn't make a good, respectable player in my eye. Kindness, politeness, and helpfulness, going out of their way to help others -- altruism. These are what I value much, much more. Generosity, integrity, loyalty as well. I'll respect some level 1 noob that is polite 1000x more than I would ever respect a level 70 in Epic or Legendary gear who's rude.

bwirum

07-03-2007, 07:37 PM

Since they both have better gear than me I disrespect them both equally. I just think it's the right thing to do ;)

Ooooh, kcma, I'm sure there's a reason the burger joint has been around for 80 years! Dang, they gotta have some pretty good burgers!

MasterDinadan

07-03-2007, 08:09 PM

Highend PVP these days means Arena which is as competitive as WoW can get. It's not about spending hours and hours playing as the honor system was, and since the maximum team size is 5, each person needs to pull his own weight (whereas in a raid, one person can slack off and still get a lot out of it).

So yes, I will respect the first person to get a full Gladiator set, because that shows true skill and not just a good guild and/or more time than he knows what to do with.

Xmcdaniel

07-03-2007, 08:33 PM

So...you're standing in orgrimmar/stormwind, and you see a level 70, looking like he's on his way to prom. No, I don't mean a tuxedo...but he's all made-up in his best outfit. You go over and inspect him to find that he has amazing gear...some of which you've never even seen.

Which would you respect more? A high warlord, decked out in full garb, arena rewards, BG reward, etc. Or do you respect the raider, who has his support gear on...looking perfectly team-oriented? Keep in mind, you're assuming each has comparable skills to merit his gear...

So, who would you respect more? A top end PvPer? or a Top end PvEer?

Top end PvPer. Saying PvE takes any amount of skill is downright laughable. PvE takes time...not skill. Go watch some Vurtne vids with him in Magisters gear taking on multiple players decked out in Tier 3 PvE epics and you will have your answer.

Shellar

11-03-2007, 01:48 PM

I'd say PvPing is more difficult. In PvE, you're fighting stupid, PC-controlled mobs that aren't even as intelligent as wild animals, and follow basic patterns and are very predictable. It's just about having a basic plan that's not too hard to follow. But in PvP, you're fighting another person. Somebody who can think and reason, and who's likely as intelligent as you. It's really a bigger challenge.
Human intelligence is a double-edged sword. Sure, the AI is incapable of making up new tactics on the spot or adapting existing ones to the situation at hand. On other hand, it does not slack off, panic, misclick, get confused or distracted, forget to use its abilities, and make other sorts of dumb mistakes that human players are prone to. If you make a mistake in a battle against a PvP player, they may or may not manage to take advantage of it. If you screw up when fighting against the machine, it will crush you with all the inhuman ruthlessness of a merciless predator.

Besides, the mobs have the major advantage of raw stats on their side that players don't enjoy. If PvE opponents are stupid compared to their living counterparts, then PvP opponents are weak. They don't have 7 million HPs, deal 11K crushing blows, launch 50-yard-radius AoEs, summon dozens of adds, stun entire raids for 10 seconds, place undispellable DoTs with total damage over 100K, or enrage and kill 40 people in 15 seconds. In fact, as far as stats are concerned, an average PvP player is an equivalent of a non-elite soloable trashmob. :laugh:

kcma

11-03-2007, 09:16 PM

Actually I can imagine. see, I've been a top PvP'er, and a top PvE'er in online games for a very long time. In the end, all I see is some tactics are learned, and a lot of extra time is put into the game. I don't see anything of value to suddenly make me think "wow, this guy/girl rocks". I see time investment and that's about it. I see a very similar behavior pattern emerge from both top PvE and top PvP players -- the "I'm better than you" attitude. People who place themselves at the top of the food chain, tend to look down on everyone else. Selfishness, greed, and boasting seems to be the running theme among most people I've seen in those positions. It is a rare treat to see someone in a position like that who still runs around and treats everyone else as equals.

Status in some "upper echelon" guild, or spiffy gear doesn't make a good, respectable player in my eye. Kindness, politeness, and helpfulness, going out of their way to help others -- altruism. These are what I value much, much more. Generosity, integrity, loyalty as well. I'll respect some level 1 noob that is polite 1000x more than I would ever respect a level 70 in Epic or Legendary gear who's rude.

you say you do, but you don't. that's exactly what i was pointing out. wearing gear and hitting RAID does not mean you're good. it just mean you hve the time and access to raid.

a top pve-er is someone who race through lvl 1-60 in less than 5 days played or grind out 2x the xp/hour than another self-proclaimed top pve-er. they do things that ordinary ppl simplly can never do. they move their char in ways that others cannot (even if they know exactly what they did).

Xlorep DarkHelm

11-03-2007, 10:44 PM

you say you do, but you don't. that's exactly what i was pointing out. wearing gear and hitting RAID does not mean you're good. it just mean you hve the time and access to raid.

I don't quite know what you mean by this. Are you agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me? I don't know what you mean by "you say you do, but you don't."

a top pve-er is someone who race through lvl 1-60 in less than 5 days played or grind out 2x the xp/hour than another self-proclaimed top pve-er. they do things that ordinary ppl simplly can never do. they move their char in ways that others cannot (even if they know exactly what they did).

That doesn't tell me anything. Other than those kind of people tend to think of themselves as better than others. Self-promotional braggarts are not popular in my book.

kcma

12-03-2007, 07:28 AM

I don't quite know what you mean by this. Are you agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me? I don't know what you mean by "you say you do, but you don't."

That doesn't tell me anything. Other than those kind of people tend to think of themselves as better than others. Self-promotional braggarts are not popular in my book.

well, i'm a bit confused by your post as well. basically i'm saying:

everyone talks about top pvp-er and pve-er. and they talk about ppl who are rank 14 or ppl epiced out from RAID. that means nothing. top pvp-er and pve-er are ppl who play at an entirely different lvl that normal ppl cannot do and gear/rank is completely irrelevant. they have reflex and understanding of the games that normal ppl don't. and their chars move in ways that normal ppl's char cannot.

rank 14 and epic gear is just that. 4k crit means nothing. WOW is not a hard game, but there are many lvls of playing. taking THAT into consideration. there is really nothing a top pve-er does a top pvp-er cannot do. and it's not always the other way around. fact is, the top pvp-er are also the top pve-er. pvp is simply trickier than pve.

***

and the ppl who keep saying neither is worth any respect, they're wrong. they just haven't had a chance to see a top player play that's all. they equate top player to top rank/gear.

nosoup4crr

12-03-2007, 08:08 AM

I think nearly everyone has misunderstood what I asked, because of its contextual frame. I created a scenario where one examines a character's gear first, because that's the context in which the question arose in my mind.

I was hoping that by saying something to the effect of "and the skill that equates to yadda, yadda, yadda" that it would clarify things. But i didn't think it all the way through.

That said, this question has become a creature all its own. At this point, if I tried to clarify or rectify, it would do nothing. This thread will go in all manner of direction.

kcma

12-03-2007, 09:56 AM

it already has. and if you're just talking about gear... there's nothing respectable about having good gears. going 1-60 in less than 5 days... in green gear... that's respectable.

Thors

12-03-2007, 11:43 AM

Actually, the answer is very simple :

PvEers will "admire" the PvE-geared person.

PvPers will "admire" the PvP-geared person.

Personnally, I'm a full-protection tank so.... Me =/= PvP

kcma

12-03-2007, 12:38 PM

gear is gear. has absolutely nothing to do with skill or respectability. just meant you can afford (time and $$) to sit there and farm stuff.

Kitano

12-03-2007, 02:01 PM

Top end PvPer. Saying PvE takes any amount of skill is downright laughable. PvE takes time...not skill. Go watch some Vurtne vids with him in Magisters gear taking on multiple players decked out in Tier 3 PvE epics and you will have your answer.

Plain and simple answer to this... you're wrong. Period. Saying PVE takes no skill is completely misunderstanding the mechanics of the game. Does PVP take skill? Absolutely. There's no question about it but it doesn't negate the fact that PVE does actually take a degree of skill as well. Yes there is memorization that comes into play with PVE but that's mainly talking about instances/raids and even then a person has to know what they're doing to be effective.

As an example I ran a ground into Shattered Halls on Saturday. We had a Rogue, Mage, Hunter, Druid and Warrior. We all knew the instance fairly well and we were able to finish it in about an hour with no wipes. The next day I ran it with the same group make-up but we couldn't even make it to the same boss. Both times I ran it with groups that knew the instance. The difference was the application of skill. The group I ran it with on Saturday knew how to play their classes and how to react. The group yesterday did not.

In PVE there are many times a player will have to react to unexpected circumstances. Questing you may end up with the 1 mob you're pulling and you may have 2 adds come from behind. In a raid a boss may behave exactly the same as it always does and it may do something completely unexpected. Knowing your class is also critical since just because you've run something many times before and know what you're doing, like my example above, it doesn't mean that everyone else knows what they're doing.

I'm good at PVP but I don't particularly enjoy it. I prefer questing and running instances. That's my preference. To each their own but PVE unquestionably takes skill and to say otherwise is to truly misunerstand a great deal of the game.

SadaraK

12-03-2007, 02:25 PM

The problem this thread has is a top geared pvp/pve person does not equal a top skilled pvp/pve person.

Gear has nothing to do with skill, so perhaps the thread should be: 'who is more skilled, the best pvp people or the best pve people.

To adress the gear question first, neither takes much skill. Pve u just have to be there for the drops, and pvp u just need no life to earn the points (i admit arena is different a bit).

The skill issue is harder, both pvp/pve have space for a player to be very very skilled, any fool on this thread who has so far said 'no skill needed for any pvp' does not know what they are talking about, if that was the case every guild with the same amount of time on their hands would be at the same progress level.

No, pve does require skill, it also requires alot more learning then pvp does, about fights, class interelations, agro and so on. Anyone that does some of the more complex fights, where 25/10 people have to work in total harmony cany possibly say there is no skill involved in this.

That said i think pvp has more space for a single player to exihibit skill, and as such have alot more of a gap between them and other players.

So i recon in conclusion, for me at least, a pvp person can show more skill then a pve one, but thats only because a pve person is made to work in concert with a group, not as a solo skillfull player. SO i guess that means no direct comparison can be made :smiley: , for me ill say pve, because everyone is going to choose what they enjoy most in the game in the end.

Serrat

12-03-2007, 04:23 PM

with so many pages i didnt read all comments.

my view is not based on the gear, but the skill.

i didnt respect the old High Warlords because of the gear, since it was just all down to not having a job and pvping all the time, that displays about as much skill as standing in the tunnel to AV all day.

like others have said have to fight with them to get the respect, often the respect and the gear dont go hand in hand.

on the pve well i didnt really respect the pve'ers pre TBC since it wasnt interesting to me, now that i actually do like the pve dungeons, well again its not down to the epics its down to what kind of job they do when im healing.

but the bottom line is, standing around org decked out in epics wont get the person my respect.

Gealach

12-03-2007, 04:36 PM

and the ppl who keep saying neither is worth any respect, they're wrong. they just haven't had a chance to see a top player play that's all. they equate top player to top rank/gear.

I think what they mean is that having a great deal of skill doesn't make you a worthwhile human being, and that those who are helpful and considerate in game deserve their respect more than those who focus only on themself and their own progression.

Xlorep DarkHelm

12-03-2007, 08:28 PM

well, i'm a bit confused by your post as well. basically i'm saying:

everyone talks about top pvp-er and pve-er. and they talk about ppl who are rank 14 or ppl epiced out from RAID. that means nothing. top pvp-er and pve-er are ppl who play at an entirely different lvl that normal ppl cannot do and gear/rank is completely irrelevant. they have reflex and understanding of the games that normal ppl don't. and their chars move in ways that normal ppl's char cannot.

rank 14 and epic gear is just that. 4k crit means nothing. WOW is not a hard game, but there are many lvls of playing. taking THAT into consideration. there is really nothing a top pve-er does a top pvp-er cannot do. and it's not always the other way around. fact is, the top pvp-er are also the top pve-er. pvp is simply trickier than pve.

***

and the ppl who keep saying neither is worth any respect, they're wrong. they just haven't had a chance to see a top player play that's all. they equate top player to top rank/gear.

Except that I've been a top PvE'er and a top PvP'er in previous games. I equate it with a particular attitude, not gear -- I could care less about gear. There is a pervasive attitude of "I'm better than you" which runs rampant on the so-called top-end. I pay attention to what the player is like, not some sort of trumped-up series of successes they have achieved resulting in an over-inflated sense of superiority. If the player is a good person, someone who is civil, polite, respectful of other players, and doesn't walk around with a chip on his or her shoulder, I tend to give that person a ton of respect. If the individual sits there with an attitude of "I'm better than you, and here's the top ten reasons why..." I don't even give them the time of day.

I could care less about what someone has or hasn't achieved in this game -- then again, maybe I couldn't -- I think I've reached rock-bottom on how much I care about that. I care more about how the person interacts with others -- someone who is kind, friendly, has integrity and honesty, someone who tends to be selfless rather than selfish, those are the kinds of players I feel deserve respect.

I don't care about loot, I don't care about who's beaten who in PvP, who's in the to-end arena groups on my server or elsewhere. I don't care if someone has defeated Illidan Stormrage and "put him on farm status". I really don't care -- to me, that's just playing the game -- and anyone can play the game. I do care how people interact with each other in these games -- as MMOs are definitely social "experiments". Anyone who treats others like something they scrape off the bottom of their shoes is just not worth my interest. Everyone can get good gear, skill is a matter of practice and study. How one treats another human being -- that is, in my book, the most telling quality of an individual.

kcma

12-03-2007, 08:51 PM

Gealach

12-03-2007, 08:59 PM

I have to say that since there's a strong social component to the whole "massively multiplayer" concept, getting along with others is an important part of playing the game. Without it, they might as well be playing those arcade games because no one will really care.

Kinda reminds me of the movie 'Cars', actually.

Xlorep DarkHelm

13-03-2007, 01:15 AM

i've spent much of the late 90s and early 2000s in the arcade with the best players in the world. and regardless of the kind of person they are they're skills in playing definitely worth respect. even if you dont want to respect them as a human being you can respect them as a great player.

Which would be fine, if we were dealing with an arcade. If the game was single-player, I can understand respecting someone for how they play the game becoming the main thing -- because their actions in the game doesn't impact other players.

I have to say that since there's a strong social component to the whole "massively multiplayer" concept, getting along with others is an important part of playing the game. Without it, they might as well be playing those arcade games because no one will really care.

Kinda reminds me of the movie 'Cars', actually.

Exactly. With the addition of multiple players, you quickly find people you like or don't like, based on how they treat you, and others. That forms the social organization which becomes important in these games -- WoW, as a "massively" multiplayer game, this becomes even more important. Someone who may know the "ins" and "outs" of a particular instance or how to PvP may be considered an asset for their skills. However, if their attitude is horrible, and they treat anyone like something found rotting in a back alley somewhere, that asset, to me, becomes no longer an asset. Such an individual would tarnish my respect, and I wouldn't want to have anything to do with them -- regardless of whatever they may or may not know in this game. Being the best PvP or PvE player just isn't what I measure my respect for. I could respect sopmeone who is kind and considerate, and then their status in PvP or PvE standings might enhance my respect a bit, but if they are worthless individuals, I don't really care how "good" they think they are.

kcma

13-03-2007, 06:57 AM

you may think Kobe Bryant is a complete poopball. which many probably believe. but that doesn't stop him from being an amazingly skillful player whose basketball skill deserves nothing but respect.

LucidSpirit

13-03-2007, 09:53 AM

I think what they mean is that having a great deal of skill doesn't make you a worthwhile human being, and that those who are helpful and considerate in game deserve their respect more than those who focus only on themself and their own progression.

This is so true...

I am a 42 mage. I was busy fighting a mob, and I didn't require any help. Perhaps my 75% health bar at the time was a dead give away. But he didn't pay attention to that, and so this "hero" (a 67 paladin) jumped straight into the middle of the fight and wiped them out before my eyes with a couple of blows from his mighty sword. Of course his DPS eclipsed mine completely and thus he won all the loot. :(

Then he stood there waiting for gratitude and respect from me?

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate help but only when necessary. This guy wanted not only the loot but respect and glory too: he was only thinking of himself.

-Lucid

kcma

13-03-2007, 10:16 AM

This is so true...

I am a 42 mage. I was busy fighting a mob, and I didn't require any help. Perhaps my 75% health bar at the time was a dead give away. But he didn't pay attention to that, and so this "hero" (a 67 paladin) jumped straight into the middle of the fight and wiped them out before my eyes with a couple of blows from his mighty sword. Of course his DPS eclipsed mine completely and thus he won all the loot. :(

Then he stood there waiting for gratitude and respect from me?

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate help but only when necessary. This guy wanted not only the loot but respect and glory too: he was only thinking of himself.

-Lucid

that's because he didn't do anything to blow your mind. back to Kobe. when he selfishly scored 50 pts a game that they lost, does it make his basketball skill any less amazing? no. you dont have to respect him as a person buy you can't deny his skill.

and a lvl 67 pally killing your mob isn't not a top pve-er :) please make no mistake about that. and as for loot... well, you tagged the mob so i dont know how he ninjaed you... that trick fascinates me... let me know when you discover it :)

LucidSpirit

13-03-2007, 11:10 AM

It is clear that each player defines respect differently: some may be dazzled by gear load; others it’s skill; and yet others would combine attributes and qualities over and above what has already been mentioned.

For me, I can only comment from a PvE point of view, and so teamwork, communication, sense of selflessness and combat skill are all import factors (to me), and if a player can meet and even surpass my expectations in the aforementioned, then he will gain considerable respect in my eyes. In that regard I can name several “great” WoW players and some are below level 65.

kcma

13-03-2007, 11:34 AM

yes, but what you said are things that can be done by anyone. like... holding down a decent job and making $50k a year... not bad not bad, but nothing WOW either.

again, back to Kobe. i dont care what kinda person he is. but we can both be playing basketball... and he would be playing an entirely differnt sport i am. i can despise him as a person, but respect goes to his on-court skill.

and in wow term, i dont care if Joana is the meanest person alive. respect goes out to him for consistantly beating everyone to end lvl on every brand new realm that opens up running mostly with gears he's found. there is no denying that he knows more about pve content than anyone else.

***

what you describe has nothing to do with wow skill really, you just 'like' certain ppl, mainly ppl who are easy to get along with. like my favorite neighbor who can hold a decent job and make $50k a year.

i applaude him for being the person that he is, but i will not respect his amazing money making skillz :) in that regard, we ARE talking about TOP END pvp-er and pve-er right? that IS the poll :)

LucidSpirit

13-03-2007, 12:27 PM

kcma

In fact the attributes I mentioned earlier will always make a good WoW player, for example communication. I have played with really bad PuG leaders and superb ones. My criteria I mentioned earlier when tuned and perfected to a high level will always make a superb WoW player. But like I said, respect is defined differently from one player to another. You have your criteria and I have mine. In other words, I understand your point of view but it's not inline with mine.

Now, in context to the question "TOP END pvp-er and pve-er", which I have never strayed from, I choose NEITHER. You will find that I am not the only one in the thread who has selected this option.

-LS

kcma

13-03-2007, 12:31 PM

actually, there's a level of playing where no amount of tuning and perfecting can be achieved by most players. and those who play at those levels are the "top" players.

what makes kobe bryant a top basketball player? if i practice everyday for the next 5 years i'd be as good as he is? no, he plays at a different level that can never ever be achieved by me. again, you might not respect him as a person, but those who are fasinated by the sport will respect his ability to play ball.

so again, you're right you're not the only one who choose to respect neither, but those of you really don't grasp the concept of playing a different game from you despite running the same software.

good thing wow is much easier than bball and i kick ass :)

Gealach

13-03-2007, 05:02 PM

You keep using the word skill when referring to levels of ability you admire because they are unattainable by most people. But 'skill' is inherently a learned and attainable quality. What you are actually referring to is innate ability.

If a level of play is unattainable by others, it isn't skill. Many people admire achievement through hard work more than innate ability. Witness Lance Armstrong or Larry Byrd.

Regardless, due to latency and game mechanics, WoW isn't very reflexes dependent, and bores the heck out of most of the really good reflex players who still stick to first person shooters. So as far as I can tell, the salient characteristics of the top PvPer is that they have the reflexes to play games like Unreal Tournament or Halo at a decent level of ability without having a case of ADD bad enough to preclude playing WoW.

WoW will never produce a person like Fatal1ty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal1ty), who is so recognized for his ability to win FPS games that he even got to design a mouse for Creative Labs that bears his handle. The top notch players in WoW PvP you're talking about are just those who couldn't hack it in the REAL reflex game circuit. WoW is pretty clearly about the social aspect, NOT top notch solo or small team vs team play.

kcma

13-03-2007, 08:48 PM

wow is definitely not a reflex based game. but there are ppl who simply always make a better choice at the right time between a 1.5 sec searing pain and a 2.5 sec shadowbolt that wins the match :p

Baal

13-03-2007, 09:01 PM

I wouldn't respect either just because of gear. Anyone with a lot of time can go out and get the gear.

It's how they play - and if they're a good person who helps out others in game that would make me respect them.

xxlebox

13-03-2007, 09:03 PM

wow is definitely not a reflex based game. but there are ppl who simply always make a better choice at the right time between a 1.5 sec searing pain and a 2.5 sec shadowbolt that wins the match :p

And that's Searing Pain for the win ofcourse! :p

kcma

13-03-2007, 09:12 PM

except when your SP falls 500 dmg short and the fireball he started had a chance to finish you off ;)

Amurko

13-03-2007, 09:27 PM

Neither

I respect twinks more than the other two.

murderousmic

13-03-2007, 11:58 PM

In every single video game I have ever played, including WoW, pvp is much more difficult than pve.

kcma

14-03-2007, 04:37 AM

yep, in any game where player can play against player. pvp is harder than pve.

except stuff like tetris where they just speed it up so much.

skinblanketed

14-03-2007, 06:07 AM

I have a ton of respect for both PvP and PvE but if i see someone in Arena gear they get my highest praise. The points system makes it so you can't just be there and get points. Points are deducted if your team loses. Right now, the best of the best are running around in Arena gear.

kcma

14-03-2007, 06:10 AM

which means my guildies need to shape up ;)

Serrat

14-03-2007, 11:43 AM

Neither

I respect twinks more than the other two.

twinks get even less respect from me than the afk farmers in av

Xlorep DarkHelm

14-03-2007, 06:10 PM

you may think Kobe Bryant is a complete poopball. which many probably believe. but that doesn't stop him from being an amazingly skillful player whose basketball skill deserves nothing but respect.

But if he's a "poopball", he doesn't deserve my respect. Respect has to be earned, not freely given just because someone can do something I can't do. I value how a person plays with others over how well the person plays the game. How well they play the game only applies after they have proven themselves as someone who plays well with others.

yes, but what you said are things that can be done by anyone. like... holding down a decent job and making $50k a year... not bad not bad, but nothing WOW either.

again, back to Kobe. i dont care what kinda person he is. but we can both be playing basketball... and he would be playing an entirely differnt sport i am. i can despise him as a person, but respect goes to his on-court skill.

and in wow term, i dont care if Joana is the meanest person alive. respect goes out to him for consistantly beating everyone to end lvl on every brand new realm that opens up running mostly with gears he's found. there is no denying that he knows more about pve content than anyone else.

***

what you describe has nothing to do with wow skill really, you just 'like' certain ppl, mainly ppl who are easy to get along with. like my favorite neighbor who can hold a decent job and make $50k a year.

i applaude him for being the person that he is, but i will not respect his amazing money making skillz :) in that regard, we ARE talking about TOP END pvp-er and pve-er right? that IS the poll :)

Which goes back to my initial problem with the poll -- it is imperfect. We ARE talking about WoW, correct? WoW is a game where you have to be able to rely on other people, and when someone has proven themselves to be unreliable, untrustworthy, or otherwise offensive to people, that person becomes someone I personally cannot give respect for. I really, honestly don't care how good the person plays the game. The person can have a talent in a certain area (for skill would mean anyone could learn it given enough time, but that's just semantics), but if that person is rude, and treats others like trash, I'm not going to give them the time of day.

Respect is related to what one person's opinion of another person is defined. As such, respect is based on a personal opinion. As it is a personal opinion, that means there honestly is no way you can prove that one person's opinion is wrong and another person's opinion is right.

Which goes back to the poll -- who do you respect more, top PvP'er or PvE'er. My answer still remains "neither" -- because I do not define my personal opinion of another player based on any "talent" or "skill" in playing the game -- this game isn't what someone would classify as overly complicated. I base my opinion of another player based on how that player interacts with others -- how well they play with others. After all, this is a MMO -- Massively-Multiplayer Online game. The multiplayer aspects tend to be that of importance to me. If it wasn't for that, I might as well throw in the latest Final Fantasy game and play that instead. Then I would place more respect on how well an individual plays the game, because there would be no interaction with other players.

If you eliminate the multiplayer aspect of the game when defining your respect for others, personally I see that as a significant weakness in the definition. Even a strictly competitive game requires a level of "sportsmanship" -- someone who's not known for dealing well with others in strictly competitive games ends up becoming ignored by a large percentage of other players. Being rude doesn't pay.

Xlorep DarkHelm

14-03-2007, 06:20 PM

Ignore me, double post.

Stigg

14-03-2007, 06:35 PM

Respect I don't think is the correct term. The nuber one raiding guild on my server was/is mostly self-righteous pricks. Yes, they get the respect of some players for what they can do, but unless you have partied with them, you don't know how they actually act. "Ooo I am in <UL> I will tell you exactly what to do and if we wipe its because you screwed up, not my leadership skills.

Same goes for the #1 PVP'er on my server. Ooo I can take out 10 lvel 70s in the middle of Ironforge before the guards finally kill me. I will mock every player around because they can not kill me in a 1v1 battle!

For me, the question should have been "which type of player impresses you more?"

And, we would need to define end-game. (talking from a pre-tbc mindset) was endgame ZG? MC? AQ20? BWL? AQ40? NAxx? At wha point do you draw the line of "end-game?" An MC raiding guild was nothing. AQ20? Nah. BWL...getting there. Naxx/AQ40? Yes. those players Impresses me. Not for their skills though. For their sheer determination to spend countless hours a day playing a game and organizing such amazing playing experiences.

End Game PVP? Define that as well. Are we talking about the 10 player premades that go in and slaughter everybody? Are we talking about the playes that farm honor kills to get their Rank 14 weapons? For me its neither. I am impressed by the people that do unique things. Like attempt to take over a city. Or stand outside of A major city and fight every equal level player that walks out. It is players that I attempt to jump yet somehow kill me without taking more than 10% damage.

Respect? Very few players can earn their respect from me. Impress? Hell, I get impressed all the time.

forevergamer

15-03-2007, 10:00 AM

i love the raiders.walking along the road..they look so cool and tough.:afro:

Been a gamer since,been a gamer still...

roaming eye

15-03-2007, 11:12 AM

People get my respect based on their personality, not on their toon/gear or solely playing skill. Also gear in WoW is a poor measurement of someones playing skill, it can lead to the wrong conclusions.

And comparing PVE and PVP is like comparing golf and baseball. First of all some people like the one sport more then the other, some like both, and it takes somewhat different skills.

If you like golf more you are bound to think that takes more 'skill' and vice versa. Truth is top end golf and top end baseball are just as hard for totally different reasons.

I feel the same way about PVE and PVP. My personal view is that PVP is more 'twitch driven' and PVE requires more organisation/team skills. Choose whatever rocks your boat.