The bans continue [Archive] - Unofficial World of Warcraft Forums

Kneash

06-03-2007, 06:02 AM

Yeah, 9 times out of 10, it's always a case of "Well, my Son did this..." or "My kid cousin didn't want to ruin his account, so he tried it on mine..." blah blah blah.

The truth is that folks are getting caught, rather red handed I might add, in the act of using power level'ing services, or buying vast sums of gold. You might not get nailed RIGHT NOW, but given enough "Red Flags" to your account & they'll eventually shut you down.

Play online from your IP in Spokane, Washington for the last 2 years on average from the hours of 5pm-12 midnight, then...all of a sudden, "you" start logging in at 1am & playing till 4pm every day, from an IP based in Eastern Europe or a Province of China? Or that the largest sum of gold you ever had at one time was 600g. All of a sudden, you had an influx of 4,000g from "Generous Doners", all of which have been fed gold from various "Overseas Accounts". Hmmm....odd, eh? The math adds up. Albeit, at times, very slowely.

It's only the EVERY NOW AND THEN actual innocent person that gets banned, all because they were just one of those "Once in a lifetime event of getting to go overseas for 2 weeks vacation" or one of those rash of great Epic World drops of some random kind from a 2nd account you actually own, you sold for premium gold and you're now sending that gold over to your main account. It does happen, sure.

But that often? I think not.

Tanitha

06-03-2007, 06:13 AM

The interesting add is that a colleague's cousin, High Warlord on one of the servers, sold gold to one of the gold buying companies. His account was banned. Now he is trying to spin them the same story apparently saying "His account was hacked ... blah blah". And what is his evil master plan? To sell the character once he gets it unbanned so he can go to University untroubled by World of Warcraft.

I don't trust people like that, nor do I trust it when somebody spins the same sop story like Kneash says "Well, my son did this" or "My kid cousin didn't want to ..."

Enders

06-03-2007, 06:39 AM

Kneash

06-03-2007, 07:03 AM

Wow... Get a shovel for all of the crap the corporate fanbois are shovelling!!!

Sure, some people get banned for a reason... But some of you have your nose shoved so far up that you can't even see that Blizzard has gone way overboard with this last round of bans, and LOT of innocent people have definitely gotten caught up in it. You'd be singing a much different tune, if you were one of them.

Banned recently, eh?

Seriously...this is called "Common Sense" look it up sometimes. It truely is enlightening.

Anyways...how a person can seriously try to argue against this, is nuts. Here, I'll give you a little "Insider Info" on how a company can go about making sure it's Corporate Arse is FREE AND CLEAR of ANY LEGAL LITIGATION:

1) They either see suspicious activity, or suspicious activity is reported to them by a user (or users).
2) They then watch these folks and/or the accounts that're current suspect.
3) They then look at every aspect of the actual user account in question (IP address, Name, Credit Card/Debit Card Info (location of bank/ect)) and begin to start connecting any visible "Dots".
4) Any & all chat logs are looked at, transactions made (Auction House, Bank, Mail, ect) What went were, when, how much. Was anything sold to a vendor? How much? Was anything DE'd? If so, what? The list goes on and on.

Remember...every time...EVERY TIME....you log onto WoW, you log in and your IP address is recorded. "User with account name "Soandso" logged in today at 04:34am (PST) from IP address XXX.XXX.XXX.X" Now...it is one thing to have that IP address fluxuate slightly here and there (some IP's randomly change 'Your' IP address, but the core IP is still the same, if anyone does any digging (of course Blizzard digs). Also, everything you possible say in game (things you actually TYPE OUT) are recorded. Everything. Naturally, nothing is ever looked at until they being to eyeball you. But if they get in there and start to see "Hey, look at this: User "Soandso" told User "Billybob1" that his login name & password was...then the next day, the guy from "Billybob1"'s IP address logged into "Soandso"'s account". Also, when multiple IP's are used, they look at WHERE and WHEN they're used. If you're say...a businessman, or on vacation, traveling all over Europe, you won't remain in the same place, all the time. So if they see a 2 day IP log in from an IP in Spain, then 3 days later a 1 day IP address from France, then a 4 day IP address from Europe, then finally back to your "normal IP" in the States, then they might say "Oh, this guy was just on vacation in Europe, we have chatlogs showing he was going there from the previous week."

But if any of the above said text doesn't "Match up", then they start really looking at you in a negative light. Then the "Maybe's" and "Possibly's" become "Pretty much so's" and "Probably's".

Do I work for Blizzard? No. Is this common sense practices for a company that wants to avoid legal action from folks who have a beef from them? Sure as heck is. They ban 10,000 accounts. What happens? Nothing, because of those 10k accounts that got banned, far less than 500 (rough guesstimate on my part) were Accidental bannings, or had suspicous activity that ends up being "Explained Away."

D.

cyradis2003

06-03-2007, 07:04 AM

Wow... Get a shovel for all of the crap the corporate fanbois are spewing!!!

Sure, some people get banned for a reason... But some of you have your nose shoved so far up that you can't even see that Blizzard has gone way overboard with this last round of bans, and LOT of innocent people have definitely gotten caught up in it. You'd be singing a much different tune, if you were one of them.

guessing you got banned ...

Some innocent people get hit but they should be able to petition Blizz and get the accounts restored. The people that actually power leveled and bought gold will not get them back.

kall

06-03-2007, 07:27 AM

@Tanitha: Agreed.

Especially when the person claiming 'their son' did it has the posting 'voice' of a 14 year old. Makes it very hard to swallow.

Solvi

06-03-2007, 07:31 AM

Tanitha

06-03-2007, 07:51 AM

Especially seeing how badly they are treated when the come onto a forum like this asking for help or understanding and get nothing but "you deserved it" the fact is innocent people do sometimes get falsely accused. I am not saying it is often but it does happen.

Sure. If they are innocent. Read the first thread that TylerDruid linked to though. The person who posted that finishes off with:

Blizzard didn’t even tell me -how- I exploited. Friends from school say they have done it to them, but under false accusation. I hope my account is recovered tommorow when the Admins get on and read my appeal letter for my account back. The most I’ve done is power level. And you know what blizzard?
~Power leveling does NOT equal exploits~
More for a short story on how the world will not let me play WoW.

His commentators:

Same thing happened to me, but I do know that its because i paid some China-based guys to powerlevel my character.

I had the same thing happen to me. I was buying gold off this website and waiting for the transfer of it. When I logged in, I happened to login at the same time the power level guy in china was leveling my character, which was pretty funny and interesting to see him get booted.

Sure. Not all of them admitted to doing something illegal. A lot of them professed their innocence. But, this is the internet. Anybody could make up any sop story and there would be no way for us to verify the veracity of it.

Yes, I'm sure that there might be innocent people involved in this. The OPs links just doesn't seem to indicate this - especially when his first link promotes and advocates the use of power leveling services.

[shrug]

Enders

06-03-2007, 07:57 AM

guessing you got banned ...

Some innocent people get hit but they should be able to petition Blizz and get the accounts restored. The people that actually power leveled and bought gold will not get them back.

Actually, I have already fully recounted what happened to me in the other thread (page 8, I believe) and don't feel the need to go into it all again.

I genuinely feel sorry for you, if you truly believe what you wrote. Blizzard has sent everyone the EXACT SAME EMAIL, a form letter. It will tell you nothing of what you are accused of. If you reply to it (which is your only recourse), you simply receive a second form letter, which has been widely posted by many people online... IDENTICAL.

Are you calling all of them liars?

Are you calling ME one..?

I suppose that is your prerogative, but you would be mistaken, and I have no need to convince you of my innocence, either way. I simply told my story in the context of the thread (the OTHER thread, I mean... lol).

The problem that I am pointing out is that certain people seem to have such worship of Blizzard that they are unable to stipulate that Blizzard could have made a mistake during a rash of mass bans. I find it laughable that you think that Blizzard has any interest at all in clearing up on their own any mistakes that they have made... they don't.

I'm not worried about my account, either way, any more. Either they reinstate it, or they don't. If they don't, then I will never purchase another Blizzard product. If they do, then I will probably be sucked right back into my addiction all over again *sigh*.

Probably better for me if they don't lol...

Valas Azuviir

06-03-2007, 07:59 AM

I read through many of the complaints and the ones that disturb me are when someone logs in and finds their account hacked. They report it and the next thing you know they are banned. I have never been banned from any mmorpg that i have ever played but you know what, I would be pretty upset if I one day found that i was banned. If i log into my wifes account from my comp or vice versa will that get me banned?...Is it considered account sharing if i were to log onto her account when we both have our own accounts that we both payed for with our collective family money? What add ons are safe and what ones may have a keylogger on them?...How can you tell? I do belive that some people are falsely banned. Just as much as I believe most are justly banned. But I would not want to be one of the few innocents. Especially seeing how badly they are treated when the come onto a forum like this asking for help or understanding and get nothing but "you deserved it" the fact is innocent people do sometimes get falsely accused. I am not saying it is often but it does happen.

a) If, you get hacked and you report it, you get temporarily suspended. This is not the same as banned. They simply need some time to go through the logs and check their own db for the activities performed by the various toons in question. It rather helps, if additional information is not piled onto said logs and in the db, by the person in question playing with their character, hence the temporary suspension.

They find something odd during their investigation, then yes, you can get permanently banned, then again, at that point they already have more than enough proof to be convinced that you powerlevelled, bought/sold gold etc etc etc.

b) Any mod, which has an .exe format is bad for you. It's that simple. A Mod, should be slotted into the relevant folder and it'll then work once you start the game. You have to take additional actions? Red flag.

c) Wife thing. See bit about minor ip changes, and if you two share a lan together, you'll have the ip anyway.

d) I think that out of the roughly 100 sob stories we get here, maybe 5 at most were from folks, who to us anyway, appeared as innocents.

e) In general. Some folks seem to think that this is the Official Forums. Guess again. We don't like flaming here, so simmer down or prepare to get whacked with the ban hammer.

Kneash

06-03-2007, 08:05 AM

We had a guy in my old guild log in one day and found all his toons stripped & his gold gone. He had the rogue extremely well geared up (T2, AQ40 gear + extra goodies). This happened near the release of TBC. Funny thing was, was that this guy was also a hardcore PVP'er (we're a PVE server). He played PVP....alot....I mean..alot. So he naturally petitions Blizzard & waits.

Blizzard basically responds, "We looked into it. You're boned, buddy." (in other words, we saw enough "Different IP's involved, we don't really know WHO was the original owner of the account, not who to ban....). In the end, he now has a lvl 70 rogue with gear that is basically everything you could get out of TBC's quest system with some from instance running. But overall, his life in TBC (so far) has been rather rough...rough indeed.

So if anything: Don't share your account info & that'll stop a bunch of the reported "OMG I've been hacked!" reports.

Idiots.

Enders

06-03-2007, 08:17 AM

Actually, the wife thing would be a violation of the EULA, since it is stipulated that only you and not more than one minor child may have access to the account. If you had two kids you'd need two accounts, and they could not share them.

In the terms of the EULA, which we all agree to, Blizzard can revoke a subscription at any point in time, at their discretion, for any reason. I knew that going in, and that's all fine and good. Doesn't make it right.

What is so shady about it is their unwillingness to look into, or explain their actions. And, in my case, it is particularly problematic that the server went down for maintenance, and during that span of time Blizzard took two actions.

1. They charged me for a full month of service
2. They locked my account.

They freely admit to charging me for a full month and dropping the ban-hammer, both during a period of time when no one could possibly have been logged onto the server.

The rep that I spoke to even told me that they submitted charges to my card within an hour of banning me, and said that they would not refund my monthly fee on the grounds that they charged me "before" the ban.

So, please forgive me if I get sick to my stomach when someone comes across with a "Blizzard is so honorable" post...

Kneash

06-03-2007, 08:43 AM

Enders

06-03-2007, 09:17 AM

Getting charged a month on your card, then getting banned because you did something to void your agreement (re: EULA & TOS) is the price you pay, when you don't play the way you agreed to, when you hit those 2 little buttons that says "Accept" every day there's a patch day.

Silly Wabbit, cheating/exploiting in a MMORPG is for little 12 year olds that ONLY know how to play their favorite game with a CHEAT CODE. Otherwise...it's just "Too hard...it's just *sniff sniff* so unfair that I have to actually do some WORK in this game.....*sniff sniff* It's just not right...."

Yeah whatever...

I'm sure you feel that it's perfectly fine for Blizzard to submit a monthly service fee during downtime knowing full well they are also going to ban the account?

Talk about drinking the kool-aid!!! :shocked:

Even in your little "Blizzard can do no wrong" scenario, where you peg me as a chinese farmer getting power leveled or whatever, it is simply impossible for an infraction to have been committed between the time that they charged the card, and the time that they locked the account, both done while the servers were down for maintenance. Therefore, Blizzard charged my account knowing full well that they also intended to ban it.

I don't know where you live, but here in the United States it's what we call blatant theft... petty larceny. :thumbsup:

Herald of Doom

06-03-2007, 09:48 AM

Olexia

06-03-2007, 09:49 AM

some innocent people do get banned i got banned for logging on to my account at my girlfriends just one time and that account is now long gone as blizz did nothing not even reply to my e-mails

Herald of Doom

06-03-2007, 09:57 AM

yeah... I logged in at my girlfriends place, my nephews place and my best friends place. I'm not banned. In fact, I even logged in at an internet cafe.

HoD

kevagron

06-03-2007, 10:07 AM

If you haven't done anything wrong then you should be OK after an investigation. If you are found guilty and you are actually innocent then I do feel sorry for those people. I doubt any "pro" complains about being banned, its a fact of life, and they go level another hunter in 4-5 days and go back to botting.

I wonder how many of those protesting happen to "forget" the 2k gold they bought 3 months ago, or the fact that half their guild has their log-in details for access to potion making maybe or the 60-70 powerleveling they paid for.......... etc

I would rather they hit gold-buyers, sellers, power-levelers, account buyers etc with a swinging a nerf bat as possible. Bots are ruining the economy, plain and simple.

If someone want to risk their account and pay for someone to level them it doesn't bother me too much, my biggest concern with power-levelers and ebay account buyers is I might end up grouped with a clueless newbie in a 70's instance.

Solvi

06-03-2007, 10:11 AM

e) In general. Some folks seem to think that this is the Official Forums. Guess again. We don't like flaming here, so simmer down or prepare to get whacked with the ban hammer.

Don't believe I was flamming at all...In fact I was agianst people flamming people for posting their experince.

"Sure. If they are innocent. Read the first thread that TylerDruid linked to though. The person who posted that finishes off with:"-Tanitha

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter201
"Blizzard didn’t even tell me -how- I exploited. Friends from school say they have done it to them, but under false accusation. I hope my account is recovered tommorow when the Admins get on and read my appeal letter for my account back. The most I’ve done is power level. And you know what blizzard?
~Power leveling does NOT equal exploits~
More for a short story on how the world will not let me play WoW. "

Also power leveling isnt an exploit unless you pay someone else to do it. He siad he was power leveling his own toon.

Kneash

06-03-2007, 10:29 AM

The main issue with these power level'ing services is that outside of the very limited info sharing (of login name & password they allow with say direct family living with you, whether it's a brother, father or wife), sharing that information is simply NOT ALLOWED. Blizzard does this for a number of reasons, mostly because it solves one major problem: People b!tching because they log in one day and all their stuff is gone....oh wait...that's happening now. Okay...how about people trying to log in & they find out their account is stolen, password changed, ect......oh wait....that TOO is happening.

See what I'm getting at?

Enders

06-03-2007, 10:56 AM

I laugh at people that get banned.

Seriously.

No pity here.

Shall I say it again?

I laugh.

Now that that's settled, I shall once again explain why exactly I laugh. In my 1 and a half years of playing WoW I haven't encountered a SINGLE person who got banned unjustly. That's right, nobody, none, zero. We had three guys banned in our guild who are all going "ooooh we were innocent blabla" for days and I gave them the benefit of the doubt. A week later the guildleader bans them from the forum because one of them admitted he bought gold and that they all shared their accounts and the bought gold. And looking at the threads posted, 99% of the people posting there fall under that category. If however someone can prove his innocence and is banned unjustly, then I'll be the first to send a veeeery angry email to blizzard!

I don't know where you live, but here in Belgium it's what we call cheaters getting what they deserve. :thumbsup:

I suppose that in Belgium you are guilty until proven innocent, and must prove yourself to be so? :rolleyes:

Might be a little tough to prove that you are innocent when no one will even tell you what you are supposed to have done. That tends to make it a *tad* more frustrating.

You can call me a cheater all you want. I don't care. I have no need to prove to you that I am innocent, and the point is moot, because for the purposes of this discussion, it would not make a difference whether I am innocent, or the worst offender in Blizzard history.

The fact still remains that during the SAME server maintenance period, Blizzard both charged me for an entire month of service in advance and banned my account. Both were done (according to Blizzard) before the servers came back up on Tuesday. Guilty or innocent, it still amounts to petty theft on Blizzard's part...

Very unethical practices.

Clavina

06-03-2007, 11:38 AM

Noone can really comment on the right and wrong of it as we don't know the full circumstances of the bannings.

No system made by men (or women!) is perfect and it is inevitable that innocent people will be caught up in the bannings. I feel that most of the people banned are probably guilty of something in the eyes of Blizz and so they have been rightly banned. However, to not even listen to the people who have done no wrong is a big no no to me.

Gormidan

06-03-2007, 11:39 AM

To the original poster, the links you provided indicated that people who have exploited the game in some way were banned. Or that some of them had inadvertantly downloaded a key logger while they were downloading some type of add on. I'm suprised that a few people did admit to buying gold, botting, or using a power leveling service. Indicates to me that there are many more people violating the rules but they will never own up to it. On the other hand, maybe some of them were illegitimately banned and I hope those unlucky people will get their account back.
However, what do you expect the BBB to do? Take your side and demand Blizzard to refund you of your losses? Get them to change their policies? Reinstate your account?
What do you think will be discovered if an investigation were to take place? Are you willing to let them look into your computer? Do you think that what they will find will attest to your innocence? Did you think that Blizzard would not be able to validate their reasons for banning your account?

moopy

06-03-2007, 11:48 AM

People who really don't do anything wrong don't get banned. It's as simple as that.

Not even remotely true. Enjoy your cosy little world of absolute certainty.

Kneash

06-03-2007, 11:57 AM

Do innocent players get banned? Unfortunately yes. 99% of the time, they get re-instated without much hassle, some even get an apology for it too!

But let's face it: Those that're banned, are banned for a very definitive reason. A reason that was very much so against either the EULA and/or ToS. There are rules you have to abide by in order to play this game. Buying ingame currency online, using power leveling services (therefore giving out your login name/password), using hacks/cheats/exploits in game regularly, are all things that WILL GET YOU BANNED. You agreed to NOT do these kinds of things when you click on that "Accept" button twice, every time you get a new patch, or install the game for the 1st time.

End Result: You made your bed. Now lie in it, you little whiny weiners!

Tiddly

06-03-2007, 12:31 PM

Don't believe I was flamming at all...In fact I was agianst people flamming people for posting their experince.

"Sure. If they are innocent. Read the first thread that TylerDruid linked to though. The person who posted that finishes off with:"-Tanitha

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter201
"Blizzard didn’t even tell me -how- I exploited. Friends from school say they have done it to them, but under false accusation. I hope my account is recovered tommorow when the Admins get on and read my appeal letter for my account back. The most I’ve done is power level. And you know what blizzard?
~Power leveling does NOT equal exploits~
More for a short story on how the world will not let me play WoW. "

Also power leveling isnt an exploit unless you pay someone else to do it. He siad he was power leveling his own toon.

I don't know much about powerlevelling but I would guess that they would use bots of somekind to grind the levels? whish is against rules

Clavina

06-03-2007, 02:26 PM

Do innocent players get banned? Unfortunately yes. 99% of the time, they get re-instated without much hassle, some even get an apology for it too!

But let's face it: Those that're banned, are banned for a very definitive reason. *snip*

End Result: You made your bed. Now lie in it, you little whiny weiners!

You've just completely contradicted yourself there, they either get it 100% right or they get it wrong somehow.

Also I'm not whining about anything, just trying to point out that we don't live in a black and white world. Blizzard isn't an all knowing deity with only good in its heart, it has made life difficult for legitimate gamers in this round of bannings and in previous ones.

moopy

06-03-2007, 02:36 PM

Clavina,

Don't confuse the issue with logic :)

Clavina

06-03-2007, 02:39 PM

hehe i'm just hoping that if i repeat myself enough the message will sink in! ;)

Kitano

06-03-2007, 02:41 PM

The potential for misinterpretation is what really worrys me. I have absolutely never done anything exploitive. I was hacked twice last year (my fault for not being more careful) but I do not use any kind of powerleveling service and the only add ons I use are CTMod, CTRaid, Simple Tranq Shot and KLH Threat Meter; all add ons allowed by Blizzard. What worries me is what can be misconstrued as illegal activity. I borrowed 1600g from my fiancee to pay for my epic flying mount recently. Since then I've paid her back in smaller increments (100g here, 250g there). There is nothing against the terms of use in regards to what we did. She loaned me gold and I paid it back gradually. There was no money that changed hands, period. Why I'm concerned is that we live together so there was no need for either of us to whisper each other about this. There's no chat log saying, "Here's the 1600g I'm loaning you," and no text in the mail I sent back to her with payments.

If Blizzard looks at this and assumes I was selling gold then I will have a serious fight on my hands that I can't win. From what I've observed, there is absolutely no room for conversation regarding a closed account with Blizzard so if they make a false assumption then I'm essentially SOL for doing absolutely nothing wrong. I haven't been banned so I really have particular point to make except that there is the potential to be banned for doing things that don't violate their terms and we'd have no recourse.

Archania

06-03-2007, 03:00 PM

Penny

06-03-2007, 03:23 PM

As long as the account shows some predictability I'm confident that were a ban to occur the account owner could get it lifted.

It's the unpredictable that will get you banned. It's not rocket science that if you get a huge influx of gold in denominations that are typical of gold resellers it sends up a flag that says "I cheated!" If your account switches IP's more often than Imelda Marcos changes shoes, the flag goes up. It's just common sense stuff.

If you don't want your account banned, don't cheat. If you haven't cheated and you've been banned, and if you've been playing without any macro bots, you've not use Linux to run the game, etc, I believe getting your account reinstated won't be too challenging. I personally believe using Linux to run the game should be allowed, but I understand this - they haven't released a Linux client. Don't run under Linux unless you want to prove something, and don't be surprised if Blizzard wants to prove something either.

I sent Blizzard a message the other day asking if using the loadout and macro program that came with my Nostromo n52 would violate the terms of service. They replied that as long as I didn't do anything that gave me an advantage over other players I was good. That was pretty nebulous, but I got the message - Err on the side of caution. I don't waste too much sympathy on those that don't.

gmedina

06-03-2007, 03:27 PM

It's interesting to note that in your first link quite a few people admitted to using a Power Leveling service. After which they were banned.

I'm not going to bother reading the rest. Power Leveling = ban.

Slight clarification IMHO, I read the first one and i think he said he power leveled not that he used a power leveling service.

Xlorep DarkHelm

06-03-2007, 03:51 PM

some innocent people do get banned i got banned for logging on to my account at my girlfriends just one time and that account is now long gone as blizz did nothing not even reply to my e-mails

Then that's not all that was done. When an innocent is banned, like, let's say all the Linux users who got a sweeping ban, Blizzard restores the account after investigation. If they show to not be as innocent as they claim to be, Blizzard doesn't even give them the time of day. Blizzard not responding can be one of two things -- first, backlog; second you aren't so "innocent". I've read sob stories by "innocents" that after a long drawn-out discussion, slipped up and said they bought gold, items, or anything with real-world cash. Or they payed for a power-leveling service. Now some times, it was someone else using the account, like a sibling, significant other, or friend -- but Blizzard considers the original account holder in those cases accountable for the actions of the other individual in these cases. That's why the ToU/EULA forbids sharing your account.

I'd have to say that 99% of the time, the people who claim innocence in this, are like prisoners claiming that they are innocent, which almost all of them do. Even those you know with 100% certainty are guilty.

IronShield

06-03-2007, 03:53 PM

Therefore, Blizzard charged my account knowing full well that they also intended to ban it.

Do you honestly believe in a company the size of Blizzard, that this all occurs in the same department. Billing and Account Services are probably not even located in the same building, let alone communicate about an issue like this. :duh:

unbdm

06-03-2007, 04:22 PM

I don't support cheating at all, but Blizzard runs this in a way that isn't fair to indiviudal, it looks out for preserving the game. While this has merrit, it's not fair to the few that get banned unfairly. It takes too much time to level a character to disregard this.

The bans that scare me are the one's where people do something in game that gets them banned, i.e. drawing a mob to attack sw... etc... The software shouldn't allow it if it will lead to a ban. As far as account sharing (including power leveling) ban the tar out of them.

However, i did call Blizz and ask if it was ok to play from multiple places, and they said no problem. The person on the phone said he plays from work and from home. I still wory about my kids playing on friends computers... but really, that is the fun of it, for friends to get together and play.

I'd have to say that 99% of the time, the people who claim innocence in this, are like prisoners claiming that they are innocent, which almost all of them do. Even those you know with 100% certainty are guilty.

It's the other 1% i think most people are concerned with here... but I do agree with you on this point. however I also don't believe 100% of prisoners are guilty... how many times have you seen on the news in the last few years about dna evidence being analyzed and some guy that was in the can for 10 years was determined inocent and set free?

Hae you ever been on a jury? You might find "a jury of your peers" to be a disapointing experience. I've done it twice, one time we had 'hang-em-high sally', the other time we had 'let em go leroy'... both times I did jury duty I was pleased to see that 11 of 12 were reasonable and quick to see... it's that 12th person... from my sample size of two, there is one on every jury...

Best Regards,
Barry

PlayThemAll

06-03-2007, 04:42 PM

I like how people keep refering to the "random" email indicating they have been banned, as though their name was just drawn out of a hat. Sorry, If you got banned it means you did something to violate your contract with Blizzard, plain and simple. If you don't realize what you did then reread the EULA. I'm sure there is something in there that you did.

I know that some mistakes happen but I have to believe that the vast majority of bans were deserved. Companies want players to play; they want to receive those monthly fee's, they don't want a lot of negative feedback. If people don't play, they loose money, thats just bad for business, and is not the sort of thing a company likes to do. Unfortunatly it is something that they have to do because people keep violating the rules.

"Hey there are 8 million people playing, they won't notice if I do...." Well guess what, apparently they do.

If you got banned and you really are innocent, I'm sorry for your loss, but it happens.
If you got banned and you deserved it, then you got what you deserve.

djiss

06-03-2007, 04:46 PM

I'm surprised Blizzard didn't nail me. I was traveling around the US for almost a year.. a new city every week. So I was constantly logging in from different hotels. But then again everyone in the guild new where I was since I was always /g telling people where I was.

It will raise a flag only. That mean they'll investigate, not automatically ban you. If you play all around the world since the first day you created an account, then it's "normal" use in your condition. Then once again, human are investigating, for some what could be taken a obvious innocent use can be taken as suspect for another.

many time some posted a "I saw a bot" thread, telling us how they identified it. If it was only of the posted, the player will be banned. And each time it's easy to find a reason why the character acted like that. Good chance you'll find people like that in Blizzard Offices too.

laffncry

06-03-2007, 05:34 PM

Some innocent people get hit but they should be able to petition Blizz and get the accounts restored.

Like what you said, innocent players who got banned can petition Blizzard but the problem is this..do they get Blizzard's attention. even if they do..when?? after a month or so??

Xlorep DarkHelm

06-03-2007, 06:38 PM

It's the other 1% i think most people are concerned with here... but I do agree with you on this point.

That last 1% gets resolved over time. blizzard has a much better track record with this than their competitors. I can remember SOE wiping out a TON of accounts because characters on that account possessed duped credits. Not that they made the duped credits, but that they were given duped credits.

however I also don't believe 100% of prisoners are guilty... how many times have you seen on the news in the last few years about dna evidence being analyzed and some guy that was in the can for 10 years was determined inocent and set free?

Hae you ever been on a jury? You might find "a jury of your peers" to be a disapointing experience. I've done it twice, one time we had 'hang-em-high sally', the other time we had 'let em go leroy'... both times I did jury duty I was pleased to see that 11 of 12 were reasonable and quick to see... it's that 12th person... from my sample size of two, there is one on every jury...

Best Regards,
Barry

First, I never said 100% of prisoners were guilty. So get off your high horse right there. I said that even prisoners that you know to be 100% guilty will often claim to be innocent. You know, the guys where there is absolutely no doubt that they did it -- none. Even those prisoners will claim they are innocent more often than not.

I'm surprised Blizzard didn't nail me. I was traveling around the US for almost a year.. a new city every week. So I was constantly logging in from different hotels. But then again everyone in the guild new where I was since I was always /g telling people where I was.
But if you use services.. buy gold.. etc.. you should be banned. There is no excuse.
I have 2 accounts.. mine and my daughters. I log in fine between both of them. Then again.. its all listed under me as the account holder.

There's a difference between what would be realistic travel times/trips, and things like people in Florida suddenly having activity in China for 2 weeks, with 16+ hours a day being played while in China the whole time, then suddenly back in Florida. Without enough time for traveling. Then to have the account being notably used with a 3rd-party application that automates gameplay (which Warden would report). Yep, those would tend to stand out as "problematic". Traveling around the country involves actual travel times -- we don't have instantaneous teleporters available in the world yet.

Seedz

06-03-2007, 06:54 PM

Two people that I know of in my guild have been hacked twice and every time after the report they got a "your account has been banned this account will never be reopened" type email. They are both still playing the same accounts. Blizzard probably doesn't want to spend the time to have multiple emails for different situations so everyone gets a standard reply. I'm under the impression that Blizzard will lift the ban on almost anyone if they fight for it and if you don't they will assume a) you are guilty of whatever they suspected you of doing or b) you don't care about your account so why should they.

Ender, I think you were just a victim of very bad luck. I really doubt that the Blizzard billing department sits down with the account investigation department to determine who's going to be banned and to charge them appropriately. I'm guessing that billing is done automatically. I've never really looked at the date they charge my credit card, but I'm assuming its on days that correspond to when I start playing. Meaning that if I signed up on the first day of the month I always get charged on the first day of the month. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'll have to check that when I get home. Anyway, I hope your account issue gets resolved soon.

grendon

06-03-2007, 06:56 PM

It's interesting to note that in your first link quite a few people admitted to using a Power Leveling service. After which they were banned.

I'm not going to bother reading the rest. Power Leveling = ban.

Yeah, now that blizzard is starting to ban almost anyone who uses PowerLeveling services, a lot more people are getting banned.

Blizzard can see if your account has been used by an IP in china.

cyradis2003

06-03-2007, 07:02 PM

laffncry

06-03-2007, 07:02 PM

It's the other 1% i think most people are concerned with here... but I do agree with you on this point. however I also don't believe 100% of prisoners are guilty... how many times have you seen on the news in the last few years about dna evidence being analyzed and some guy that was in the can for 10 years was determined inocent and set free?

Hae you ever been on a jury? You might find "a jury of your peers" to be a disapointing experience. I've done it twice, one time we had 'hang-em-high sally', the other time we had 'let em go leroy'... both times I did jury duty I was pleased to see that 11 of 12 were reasonable and quick to see... it's that 12th person... from my sample size of two, there is one on every jury...

Best Regards,
Barry
i have to agree..not all banned accts are guilty as charged. i say blizz should look into things first before banning an acct just to make sure.

thorken

06-03-2007, 07:29 PM

If you power-level, you should be banned.
If you buy gold, you should be banned.
You are damaging the game for the rest of us.

If you are "accidentally" banned and you are innocent, your account will be resumed.

Now, go play the game, and quit whining.

Xlorep DarkHelm

06-03-2007, 07:33 PM

i have to agree..not all banned accts are guilty as charged. i say blizz should look into things first before banning an acct just to make sure.

I hate to tell you, but they do. They have evidence which points to activity that violates the EULA, which bans the account. If it was in error, they will restore the account, but you need to work at showing them that it is an error. Remember, they are sitting with the evidence already showing that your account violated the EULA. It becomes up to you to prove that you didn't do it. This isn't a US criminal court, you are not innocent until proven guilty.

Enders

06-03-2007, 08:14 PM

I hate to tell you, but they do. They have evidence which points to activity that violates the EULA, which bans the account. If it was in error, they will restore the account, but you need to work at showing them that it is an error. Remember, they are sitting with the evidence already showing that your account violated the EULA. It becomes up to you to prove that you didn't do it. This isn't a US criminal court, you are not innocent until proven guilty.

I hate to tell you, but they don't. It's already been shown that they don't. The warden simply tells them who to ban and they do it. If you ask them to look into the matter deeper then they just send you a form letter. One of the few cases where they actually did look into involved the linux bans, but even then, they only looked deeper because so much noise was made about it by a significant portion of the user base.

If you are a single user they will not even bother to tell you what you are supposed to have done, making it impossible to show that you didn't do it.

Xlorep DarkHelm

06-03-2007, 08:24 PM

I hate to tell you, but they don't. It's already been shown that they don't. The warden simply tells them who to ban and they do it. If you ask them to look into the matter deeper then they just send you a form letter. One of the few cases where they actually did look into involved the linux bans, but even then, they only looked deeper because so much noise was made about it by a significant portion of the user base.

If you are a single user they will not even bother to tell you what you are supposed to have done, making it impossible to show that you didn't do it.

They do not need to explain why you got banned. You need to explain to them why you should not be banned. Using the "1 in 8 million customers" excuse doesn't fly -- Blizzard is a company, companies exist to make money. In a service-based environment like WoW is, more customers = more profit. A company is not going to willingly sacrifice profits without just cause. Companies that do so, end up failing horrifically. You better believe that there is a Quality Assurance control on the process for banning accounts. Just because they don't tell you what those reasons are, doesn't mean they don't exist. Blizzard is under no obligations to do so.

To date, your complaints have fallen to about the same category that I've seen other, extraordinarily similar complaints with me. You haven't been able to provide a shred of proof to support your claim other than your word against Blizzard's -- which I am inclined to think that Blizzard is right in their decision. If you have a real gripe against Blizzard, coming to a fansite's message forums to protest them isn't even remotely the correct course of action to take. If you had a legitimate complaint against them, you'd be using legitimate means to resolve that complaint, rather than stirring up trouble among fans of Blizzard's game.

You say that it has already been shown that Blizzard doesn't have a legitimate reason to ban your account and lock you out of it -- or others similar to you. Yet your only evidence is that Blizzard won't tell you, which they are well within their rights to not tell you -- them not coughing up the reason is not evidence of them not having a reason (ok, that's what, a triple negative? good, it still is negative then!)

The weight is on you to prove you are right in this, not on us to prove Blizzard is right.

Herald of Doom

06-03-2007, 08:26 PM

I suppose that in Belgium you are guilty until proven innocent, and must prove yourself to be so? :rolleyes:

Might be a little tough to prove that you are innocent when no one will even tell you what you are supposed to have done. That tends to make it a *tad* more frustrating.
Nono. Blizzard has proof that you cheated. They ban you. You then provide evidence you didn't cheat.

You can call me a cheater all you want. I don't care. I have no need to prove to you that I am innocent, and the point is moot, because for the purposes of this discussion, it would not make a difference whether I am innocent, or the worst offender in Blizzard history.
Well, good, I don't care either. Nothing personal, but this is a forum.. for a game.. The chance of me caring about anyone here are very close to zero ;)

The fact still remains that during the SAME server maintenance period, Blizzard both charged me for an entire month of service in advance and banned my account. Both were done (according to Blizzard) before the servers came back up on Tuesday. Guilty or innocent, it still amounts to petty theft on Blizzard's part...

Very unethical practices.
Billing, meet Accounts. I don't believe you've met before? Company I worked at charged a customer for 6 additional months because one department didn't notify that the contract was terminated. Most likely this was the case here as well. If i wasn't, go ask for a refund :)

HoD

unbdm

06-03-2007, 08:34 PM

That last 1% gets resolved over time. blizzard has a much better track record with this than their competitors. I can remember SOE wiping out a TON of accounts because characters on that account possessed duped credits. Not that they made the duped credits, but that they were given duped credits.

First, I never said 100% of prisoners were guilty. So get off your high horse right there. I said that even prisoners that you know to be 100% guilty will often claim to be innocent. You know, the guys where there is absolutely no doubt that they did it -- none. Even those prisoners will claim they are innocent more often than not.

Blizz stinks to deal with, have you ever had to do it? I had a minor vendor issue with my daughters account, it at leat 10-15 emails over the course of two weeks to resolve (and we really didn't resovle it). They are the wost customer service outfit I have ever used. I have no doubt they're just a bad if your dealing with a significant issue instead of a level 7 vendor issue.

On the seond part, fine, but I really wasn't on a high horse. I think the axe Blizz swings leaves room for consumer rights to bring it in to question, if anyone were to care enough to do it. To be honest, I suggest you seem to be on a high horse defending blizz, really, just because you have not had a problem doens't mean nobody else has. Further, they are very frusterating to deal with, form letters, shallow responses that don't address the full concern, etc...

I've never had an account banned, and never done anything wrong (that I know of), but when I dealt with them on a minor problem I quickly concluded that blizz stinks for customer service.... If your problem is outside the norm, you're screwed, at least that was my experience.

Barry

Penny

06-03-2007, 08:35 PM

One of the few cases where they actually did look into involved the linux bans, but even then, they only looked deeper because so much noise was made about it by a significant portion of the user base.Blizzard doesn't make a Linux client. They would have been totally within their rights to ban someone for not playing under a supported configuration.

In the EULA, you grant Blizzard the "Consent to Monitor" and you consent to experience the game only in ways expressly authorized by Blizzard.

They stack the game rules in their favor, but you have the right to refuse to play or have the software installed on your system.

All connections to the Game and/or the Service, whether created by the Game Client or by other tools and utilities, may only be made through methods and means expressly approved by Blizzard.

The terms of service are here:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.shtml

Before you accuse others of being fanbois, you should consider this: An adult will read the contract and follows the terms him/herself. Since the contracts explicitly states that Blizzard will shut you down for any reason it deems fit, you have the onus of proving you weren't cheating, Blizzard has none whatsoever.

Termination.
This Agreement is effective until terminated. You may terminate this Agreement by terminating the Account and deleting the Program. In the event that you terminate or breach this Agreement, you will forfeit your right to any and all payments you may have made for pre-purchased game access to World of Warcraft. You agree and acknowledge that you are not entitled to any refund for any amounts which were pre-paid on behalf of the Account prior to any termination of this Agreement. Blizzard may terminate this Agreement with or without notice by terminating your Account. The provisions of Sections 2, 4 and Sections 6-17 shall survive any termination of this Agreement.

MellanCholera

06-03-2007, 08:41 PM

You have more recourse than just to respond to an email.. you could call. every person who was banned accidentally got unbanned by calling, email never gets a response. This is true of every single company out there. It is easy to ignore and send a form letter back, it is harder to be rude to a caller if that caller is calm and rational (i.e. not screaming "unban me you suck!" at the rep).

Blizzard blue posters have stated they don't really care about family members in the same house sharing, like a husband and wife. It's more to stop friends from sharing, since then people start opening tickets because their friend vendored their tier 3. The same way the library tells you not to lend their book to a friend. They have stated while technically it violates the EULA they also said they don't enforce it if it's the same household. This does not apply to roomates in college they have to have separate accounts. Again it's more their way to be friendly to parents who can only afford one. Since after all that means they hook the other household members and someday might get more accounts.

And very often, just like the people quoted above, say things like "i wasn't hacking I just bought gold/powerlevelled/sold gold that's not wrong I don't deserve a ban" yeah they can't even be bothered to read what's allowed and what's not allowed. So people saying "I'm not lying I didn't do anything wrong" don't impress me. It's not someone's idea of right and wrong, it's what Blizzard allows or not. Whether you think RTM should be allowed or not doesn't figure into the equation.

Enders

06-03-2007, 09:04 PM

They do not need to explain why you got banned. You need to explain to them why you should not be banned.

It is simply beyond the realm of possibility to prove that one did not do something when no one will even tell them what they are supposed to have done.

Using the "1 in 8 million customers" excuse doesn't fly

What excuse?

I said that warden tells them who to ban, and they do it. They will not look into the matter further unless significant pressure is put upon them, as was the case with the linux users.

-- Blizzard is a company, companies exist to make money. In a service-based environment like WoW is, more customers = more profit. A company is not going to willingly sacrifice profits without just cause. Companies that do so, end up failing horrifically. You better believe that there is a Quality Assurance control on the process for banning accounts. Just because they don't tell you what those reasons are, doesn't mean they don't exist. Blizzard is under no obligations to do so.

Blind faith is a powerful thing, but disgusting nonetheless. Blizzard has blind faith in warden, and you have blind faith in Blizzard.

To date, your complaints have fallen to about the same category that I've seen other, extraordinarily similar complaints with me. You haven't been able to provide a shred of proof to support your claim other than your word against Blizzard's -- which I am inclined to think that Blizzard is right in their decision.

You must be confusing me with someone else. I have already stipulated that Blizzard is well within it's rights to terminate any account at will, regardless of EULA violations. They are fully within their rights to close any account they wish, for any reason.

If I have any complaint at all against Blizzard, it centers around their complete lack of responsiveness to customers that encounter issues, of which I have already provided more than ample proof, and the fact that they charged for a full month of service while being fully aware that they intended to close the account, and that both actions were taken while the servers were down for maintenance. Blizzard does not deny this.

If you have a real gripe against Blizzard, coming to a fansite's message forums to protest them isn't even remotely the correct course of action to take. If you had a legitimate complaint against them, you'd be using legitimate means to resolve that complaint, rather than stirring up trouble among fans of Blizzard's game.

I'm not here in protest, and I did not author these threads. I am simply involved in the discussion.

You say that it has already been shown that Blizzard doesn't have a legitimate reason to ban your account and lock you out of it -- or others similar to you.

I have said no such thing. Someone voiced that Blizzard should look into accounts deeper before banning them. You replied that they do. Well they don't. Warden tells them who to ban and they do it, and then they send you a form letter. If you reply and protest to them, they simply send you another form letter. Several cases, including mine, show this to be true. One of the very few times that they bothered to look deeper was the linux issue, and they only did look deeper after significant pressure was put upon them to do so by a portion of the user base. Prior to that pressure, the linux users received the exact same form letters that I have in my email box, verbatim, which goes to prove that requests for review go completely unheaded.

Tanitha

06-03-2007, 09:08 PM

Warden tells them who to ban and they do it, and then they send you a form letter.

Out of curiosity - how do you know that they ban based on Warden alone? A logical system would use Warden's reports as a flag which results in an investigation by a human being. They are still a corporate entity and need to protect themselves too.

Enders

06-03-2007, 09:10 PM

Tanitha

06-03-2007, 09:15 PM

Blizzard customer service will not even discuss bans or account closures over the phone, and will tell you that email is your only recourse. No one has ever had a ban lifted through contact with Blizzard via phone. It is strictly against their policy to discuss the matter, no matter how nice you are, and they will tell you so.

You could of course use their dispute resolution process. This is well documented in the End User License Agreement, but boils down to writing a letter detailing the situation and sending it to:

Blizzard Entertainment, Inc., P.O. Box 18979, Irvine CA 92623, attn: Legal Department

That should be your next step.

Enders

06-03-2007, 09:28 PM

Out of curiosity - how do you know that they ban based on Warden alone? A logical system would use Warden's reports as a flag which results in an investigation by a human being. They are still a corporate entity and need to protect themselves too.

I know this because I have taken the time to look into cases where Blizzard ultimately reversed the bans. All of them are remarkably similar in the fact that the users were all sent the same initial form letter. Upon requesting review, they are sent a second form letter. These cases are easily accessed on the internet for review. The letters are all identical.

But it does make some sense. Put yourself into Blizzard's place. They have a very large user base. Blizzard staff is far outnumbered by the case load. They HAVE to rely on warden to accurately flag accounts for ban, and it would be impossible for them to research each and every case before brining down the ban-hammer. Add to that fact that Blizzard is fully within it's rights to terminate any account for any reason, without liability (and rightfully so), they are quite well protected.

Do not think for a moment that I am here to try to convince everyone that "OMG BLIZZ S*X EVERYONE PROTEST THEM!!!". I'm not.

Blizzard has produced one of the most remarkable products in the history of gaming, imo. They are miles ahead of Sony. They've added a great deal of game content for free without forcing subscribers to constantly go out and buy expansion packs, and when they did come out with an expansion of their own, it was a very significant upgrade, remarkably free of bugs, despite the fact that some users fixate on certain things and complain to no end.

But their customer service is just plain awful.

Tanitha

06-03-2007, 09:39 PM

I know this because I have taken the time to look into cases where Blizzard ultimately reversed the bans. All of them are remarkably similar in the fact that the users were all sent the same initial form letter. Upon requesting review, they are sent a second form letter. These cases are easily accessed on the internet for review. The letters are all identical.

The use of a form letter as a response does not indicate that the case was not fully reviewed. For all we know they have a corporate policy as advised by their legal department that requires those letters to be sent.

As someone who has worked in Customer Service (Technical industry?) you'll know that there are common answers that are templated for use in most CRS type systems. The one we use here gets expanded as new form answers are added. It saves time and reduces the chance of an erroneous or binding statement from a customer service rep when they can simply use form letters to respond to common scenarios.

But it does make some sense. Put yourself into Blizzard's place. They have a very large user base. Blizzard staff is far outnumbered by the case load. They HAVE to rely on warden to accurately flag accounts for ban, and it would be impossible for them to research each and every case before brining down the ban-hammer.

Hmmm. Respectfully I am going to have to disagree with that statement. Any smart developer would build a series of flags into a system that would alert them. A case of multiple conditions being met which eventually requires a human to interact with it. So out of 8 million subscribers, assuming all are active on any given day - what number would you expect to be cheating?

Valas Azuviir

06-03-2007, 09:55 PM

Don't believe I was flamming at all...In fact I was agianst people flamming people for posting their experince.

Hence, why I said in general.. Wasn't referring to you, though some other posters are going too close to the allowed boundaries in my not so humble opinion.

Yeah whatever...

I'm sure you feel that it's perfectly fine for Blizzard to submit a monthly service fee during downtime knowing full well they are also going to ban the account?

Talk about drinking the kool-aid!!! :shocked:

Even in your little "Blizzard can do no wrong" scenario, where you peg me as a chinese farmer getting power leveled or whatever, it is simply impossible for an infraction to have been committed between the time that they charged the card, and the time that they locked the account, both done while the servers were down for maintenance. Therefore, Blizzard charged my account knowing full well that they also intended to ban it.

I don't know where you live, but here in the United States it's what we call blatant theft... petty larceny. :thumbsup:

a) If you pay by CC, then dispute the charges. Plain and simple.
b) Accounting and the Banning department are just that two different departments. One is checking for outstanding bills, the other is dotting the i's and crossing the t's, after the regular investigation, as to why an account needs to be shut down, is done.

As for why you got banned??
"reoccurring trends in exploitative endeavors"

Keep in mind, that you may not have realized that you were exploiting. Reminds me a bit of that guild who kept raiding Jaina Proudmoore, because she was dropping a whole lot more cash than she was supposed to.

Might've been something like this. And if it is, escalate the situation. Take it up with a manager by way of a phonecall.

Course at this point, it's a he said, she said between you and Blizzard. And considering that Blizzard has a better batting average than you do over on these forums. Well, I'm more inclined to believe them at this point, rather than you. Course, that might also have something to do with how you are presenting yourself here. *shrugs*

Also keep in mind, to the professional cheaters, it's simply a case of buying a new account. Part of the business risk. Then you got your timid innocents, they get steamrolled yes, then again no system is completely foolproof, we're dealing with humans here. Where humanity is involved, you'll get mess ups, it's inherent when dealing with this species.

That just leaves two groups left, and they have a certain amount of overlap. You got the tenacious innocents, who will fight to clear their name, and you got the sociopath-like folks, they're just doing it because they can. Both groups tend to get re-instated after enough persistence. The latter remain a problem, the former?? End up somewhat jaded but go back to playing.

So the question is, to which of the four groups do you belong..

Two people that I know of in my guild have been hacked twice and every time after the report they got a "your account has been banned this account will never be reopened" type email. They are both still playing the same accounts. Blizzard probably doesn't want to spend the time to have multiple emails for different situations so everyone gets a standard reply. I'm under the impression that Blizzard will lift the ban on almost anyone if they fight for it and if you don't they will assume a) you are guilty of whatever they suspected you of doing or b) you don't care about your account so why should they.
.

As I stated before, folks keep confusing two concepts.
a) Getting Banned.
b) Being Suspended.

Point A tends to be permanent, unless you can really really really prove your case. Also involves a certain amount of compassion with the person handling your case, but eh.. Usually, it's game over.

Point B on the other hand, it's temporary. Time can differ of course, but to make a comparison.

Point A is like being perma-banned off of these forums.
Point B is like being temp-banned off of these forums. The latter has a finite time attached to it, time could be as extreme as a year for instance, but there's a finite time. The former?? Unless, you convince the Admins otherwise, it's game over.

Warden tells them who to ban and they do it, and then they send you a form letter.

Actually, it's a bit more involved than that, then again I've done some digging with regards to this. Not something that should be discussed on an open forum really.

Unfortunately, you are completely mistaken in the rest of your post.

Blizzard customer service will not even discuss bans or account closures over the phone, and will tell you that email is your only recourse. No one has ever had a ban lifted through contact with Blizzard via phone. It is strictly against their policy to discuss the matter, no matter how nice you are, and they will tell you so.

Depends on who you are calling actually, which department. We've had folks who did discuss their cases with a manager, another review took place, and sometimes they got cleared, and other time they did not. Dependant upon the situation. Vaguely recall one, about one chap getting banned for botting, or something like that. Turned out he'd been hacked and had been unaware of said takeover for whatever reason it was. Account was re-activated, but he was reminded that account safety is the responsibility of the account holder, and that he'd been put on final notice instead. Apparently, he'd been somewhat shall we say obnoxious in the various channels in the past, hence why he didn't get a clean slate. Should be somewhere in our archives here.

We've also had one player who had a large portion of their goldhoard nuked, because a GM thought he'd been involved in goldbuying/selling. That was overturned as well. That occured with Wesje, bit more of a regular around here, hence why I remember the name. Again, both e-mail and phone contact.

And of course, there have been the numerous posts about folks, who've confused suspension with being banned. And who eventually got let back in after the investigation was over and they were given a clean bill of health.

djiss

06-03-2007, 10:00 PM

Enders

06-03-2007, 10:11 PM

The use of a form letter as a response does not indicate that the case was not fully reviewed.

No, but the fact that Blizzard ultimately reversed the bans after significant pressure was applied on them to review the cases fully does show conclusively that they never fully reviewed the case in the first place. Even a quick research into cases that ended up being reversed will show that Blizzard universally ignores initial requests for review.

For all we know they have a corporate policy as advised by their legal department that requires those letters to be sent.

I have doubts about this. Certainly Blizzard has a legal department that focuses on some of these issues, but you have to remember that Blizzard can not be held liable for any account closure, for any reason (nor should they be). They do not face a liability issue here, but one of consumer relations.

As someone who has worked in Customer Service (Technical industry?) you'll know that there are common answers that are templated for use in most CRS type systems. The one we use here gets expanded as new form answers are added. It saves time and reduces the chance of an erroneous or binding statement from a customer service rep when they can simply use form letters to respond to common scenarios.

I also know full well that such standard responses often do not fit the situation at hand, and are a crutch to some. Improperly used, they can, and often do, make the situation worse, not better. A customer is left with the very valid impression that the company does not care about them, or their issue, and that they will receive no satisfaction.

Poor customer service practices, indeed.

Hmmm. Respectfully I am going to have to disagree with that statement. Any smart developer would build a series of flags into a system that would alert them. A case of multiple conditions being met which eventually requires a human to interact with it. So out of 8 million subscribers, assuming all are active on any given day - what number would you expect to be cheating?

You tell me...

Been to the badlands lately? How many botted farmers have you run into today? Keep in mind that for every farmer you've seen, there are several gold buyers on the other end waiting for product. Out of 8 million subscribers, even if only one percent of them cheated every month, that would be 80,000 cases that Blizzard would have to deal with, each and every month. I would be willing to bet that the number is a great deal higher than one percent. But, for the moment, let's go with that number. Eighty thousand cases is quite sufficient to make it outside the realm of possibility for a human hand to be involved in each case.

It simply would not be cost effective. And, since Blizzard is under no requirement to personally review each case, it would be very "un-corporate" (to coin a phrase) for them to devote a significant budget in an attempt to do so.

Tanitha

06-03-2007, 10:20 PM

I won't dispute that the customer service practice might be poor. My interactions with them so far have been particularly pleasant, but it has been restricted to in-game reports and the odd discussions with GMs of bugs or issues that are affecting the game.

As to botted farmers - I have not seen one, but I have only been playing for about 6 months. They must be out there, but they're not on the RP/PvP realms as far as I can tell. Especially not in the Badlands, I've quested extensively there.

But let us say that you are getting 80,000 reports a month. Gold buyers will be flagged server side (Not Warden) for receiving an extraordinary amount of gold. If 10,000 gets flagged for receiving large sums of gold and the source is one or two players, possibly even coming from a geographically similarly located series of IP addresses then it's possible that they might only receive a report like:

1. PlayerX - received gold 4,000 - sender Hunter444 - recommend Ban
2. PlayerY - received gold 2,000 - sender Hunter444 - recommend Ban
3. ...

etc. A human being would still likely review this. I simply cannot believe that they would automate the banning process.

But - until they publish, we are only speculating :grin:

Seedz

06-03-2007, 10:22 PM

As I stated before, folks keep confusing two concepts.
a) Getting Banned.
b) Being Suspended.

I'm not confused at all. Blizzard's letter to one of my guildmates was read to me over vent. It stated in no uncertain terms that the account would never be reopened. That implies a ban not a suspension. Needless to say he was back playing later in the week. I was just trying to point out that they may not actually mean what they say if you receive an email from them and this is what leads to the confusion.

Enders

06-03-2007, 10:46 PM

As for why you got banned??
"reoccurring trends in exploitative endeavors"

Very descriptive, eh?

And for those that keep insisting that the burden should be upon the user to prove his or her innocence, it becomes problematic in that you can't defend yourself when you don't know what the charge is.

Might've been something like this. And if it is, escalate the situation. Take it up with a manager by way of a phonecall.

I do not know what past Blizzard policies were, but the current ones I am quite familiar with. They do not, under any circumstance, escalate any phone calls to a manager.

Course at this point, it's a he said, she said between you and Blizzard. And considering that Blizzard has a better batting average than you do over on these forums.

Quite untrue. This is not a he said, she said.

I neither seek, nor crave for, your belief in my innocence, and the part that bothers me the most about my particular case, Blizzard has already stipulated.

So the question is, to which of the four groups do you belong..

God help me, most likely the last of the four. I am already jaded by my experience with customer service, but honesty compels me to admit that I would likely go back to playing the game with a full subscription. My personal circumstances has me on a fixed income, or, even though I have said in anger that Blizzard would never receive another penny from me, I probably would have already gone out and bought another copy of WoW and TBC already. Chalk this up to love for a wonderful product, or extreme gaming addiction... it doesn't matter which. :ponder:

The truth is, I do not mourn so much for the loss of my main because I was facing a situation that left me looking at having to do a complete re-roll anyway. My poor main was destined to be forever locked out of Mt Hyjal because his attunement quest line got bugged somehow, and the GMs refused to reset it.

But, as I have said before, I am not really discussing the validity of my account closure here, but the circumstances that surround it, and how it has been handled. For the purposes of this discussion, whomever believes me to be guilty or innocent does not matter.

Xlorep DarkHelm

06-03-2007, 11:19 PM

No, but the fact that Blizzard ultimately reversed the bans after significant pressure was applied on them to review the cases fully does show conclusively that they never fully reviewed the case in the first place. Even a quick research into cases that ended up being reversed will show that Blizzard universally ignores initial requests for review.

Nope, means they made a mistake, and were willing to fix it. It doesn't mean that they never fully review cases, or universally ignore initial requests for review. See, in the world we live in, those kinds of absolutes are not real. They might tend to do something at different times, based on the individuals that are handling the situations, or the policies that may or may not have been in place. I'm not even beginning to say that Blizzard is perfect -- Blizzard is a company, which is comprised of people. People make mistakes, therefore Blizzard as a company will make them too. But that doesn't mean some ultimate blanket policy that is unchangeable (which is what your use of absolutes, even if they are hyperbolically applied in this case, demands).

Been to the badlands lately?

Yep.

How many botted farmers have you run into today?

None. But then again, I've reported every suspected bot I ever saw since launch.

Keep in mind that for every farmer you've seen, there are several gold buyers on the other end waiting for product.

Not really. I tend to farm gold with my main. to filter it over to my alts. There is no gold buying going on there -- simply me making money on one character to the benefit of my other characters.

Out of 8 million subscribers, even if only one percent of them cheated every month, that would be 80,000 cases that Blizzard would have to deal with, each and every month.

No arguments with this.

I would be willing to bet that the number is a great deal higher than one percent.

Once again, no arguments with this.

But, for the moment, let's go with that number. Eighty thousand cases is quite sufficient to make it outside the realm of possibility for a human hand to be involved in each case.

Not really. It does mean they have busy people at work there, but if a human hand digs through, with the tools that Blizzard has spent years developing (reaching to periods before WoW even, as they have mentioned that the tools they use to track cheaters are built upon the existing tools they already had for past games). If they could have, I dunno, some tabular display, which can show, let's say 200 "flagged" accounts per page, with details that have been gathered for those flagged accounts already being displayed, it really doesn't take long for an individual to look through them all. You make it sound like there's a ton of paperwork that they have to go through. What they have is a robust database management system with probably very effective, and fine-tuned queries that are used to gather whatever information is most likely needed. Most likely needed being that in 99.99% of the cases, that's all that is needed. So, out of 80,000 cases, if all that is needed is 0.01% requiring a much higher check, then suddenly you are looking at needing to evaluate 80 cases on a much more rigorous level.

Is the system perfect, nope. Never said it would be -- in fact, I'm fairly certain nobody has said the system was perfect, not even Blizzard. But they have plainly stated what will happen, and that they can cancel any account without needing to explain themselves as to why.

satarina

07-03-2007, 06:29 AM

And for those that keep insisting that the burden should be upon the user to prove his or her innocence, it becomes problematic in that you can't defend yourself when you don't know what the charge is.

if you did nothing that violates the EULA or TOS, if you were not buying/selling gold or items, or using a powerleveling service, then what's the problem? i mean, come on, if you did something to get your account banned, you know exactly what it is. you don't need blizz to tell you.
and if you did nothing to get banned, and you feel that this is unfair, then get a lawyer (or at least threaten to). dispute the charges to your cc. take action other than coming to a forum to bash blizz's customer service.

honestly, enders, no offense, but if your email correspondence with blizzard reads like your posts here, it's not surprising that you get no response. it's really coming across like you screwed up and don't want to admit it, and want to bash blizzard because you got caught. if that's not the case then i apologize, but that's how it's reading.

if you are, indeed, one of the unfortunate people that got banned unjustly, i hope it gets straightened out for you. i know that it would suck to be in that position.

speciMaN

07-03-2007, 06:57 AM

Mincemaker

07-03-2007, 09:19 AM

Blizzard should at least issue people a warning before banning anyone. Whether someone is botting or power leveling, neither of which are detrimental activities, they are paying Blizzard for a service. The whole "We don't need to tell you why we banned you!" stance is a total cop out and poor business practice.

However, it is already stated in their terms that they CAN ban you for absolutely no reason at all if they want to.

This is their game, and so, their rules. You don't like it, don't play it. The moment you click that 'accept' button on the bottom of the EULA they showed to you the first time you started the game means that you will allow them to do exactly what they had stated in that EULA, doesn't matter if you read it or not.

Seeo

07-03-2007, 04:35 PM

Mincemaker

07-03-2007, 04:37 PM

Buying gold is bannable. If Blizzard checks your log in one day to find you have like 10g, and check again the next day to find 1000g, then you are going to really get into trouble.

It does happen.

JoeMuggs

07-03-2007, 05:50 PM

Blizzard should at least issue people a warning before banning anyone. Whether someone is botting or power leveling, neither of which are detrimental activities, they are paying Blizzard for a service. The whole "We don't need to tell you why we banned you!" stance is a total cop out and poor business practice.

What the hell do you mean '....botting or power leveling, neither of which are detrimental activities...'. Clearly both of these things are very detrimental to the game. Especially botting, how could you possible say that botting is not detrimental to the game. I think it is some ppl with attitudes like this who don't understand things this, that complain about getting banned for nothing b/c they don't understand what is allowed.

speciMaN

07-03-2007, 06:25 PM

However, it is already stated in their terms that they CAN ban you for absolutely no reason at all if they want to.

This is their game, and so, their rules. You don't like it, don't play it. The moment you click that 'accept' button on the bottom of the EULA they showed to you the first time you started the game means that you will allow them to do exactly what they had stated in that EULA, doesn't matter if you read it or not.

FYI the EULA is not legally binding and would not really hold up in court. This has happened numerous times, when a software company attempted to base its case on the terms provided in the EULA.

That being said, Blizzard does open itself to legal liability by perpetuating unprofessional business practices, which include termination of service without reason or notification...but it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to bother filing a lawsuit against Blizzard since the costs of doing so are pretty high, and the rewards are non-existent.

What the hell do you mean '....botting or power leveling, neither of which are detrimental activities...'. Clearly both of these things are very detrimental to the game. Especially botting, how could you possible say that botting is not detrimental to the game. I think it is some ppl with attitudes like this who don't understand things this, that complain about getting banned for nothing b/c they don't understand what is allowed.

Please, tell me how someone botting or power leveling have negatively impacted your experience in WoW. :ponder:

Xlorep DarkHelm

07-03-2007, 06:29 PM

Ok, from what I've heard, buying gold will not get you banned. Sharing your account with a powerleveler will tho.

I never did any of that, but I thought I saw somewhere that buying gold isn't a bannable offense... selling it is however.

Some people justify gold buying by saying it isn't bannable. However, Blizzard has banned quite a few accounts for buying gold. It isn't hard for them to figure it out, when they find a gold seller. Transactions from that gold seller are logged, and able to be dug through, to identify accounts the gold went to.

Fursphere

07-03-2007, 06:31 PM

Buying gold is bannable. If Blizzard checks your log in one day to find you have like 10g, and check again the next day to find 1000g, then you are going to really get into trouble.

It does happen.

I've sold stuff on the auction house for 900g before.

So goign from 10g - 1000g overnight isn't out of the ordinary.

dgrampa

07-03-2007, 06:46 PM

I've sold stuff on the auction house for 900g before.

So goign from 10g - 1000g overnight isn't out of the ordinary.

Not to mention Blizzard isn't going through 5 million accounts 1 at a time checking their gold levels.

Xlorep DarkHelm

07-03-2007, 06:50 PM

Not to mention Blizzard isn't going through 5 million accounts 1 at a time checking their gold levels.

they don't have to. That is what database queries are good for. Getting the money in and of itself is not a warning sign. Getting the money from the in-game mail (suddenly getting 10,000 gold in the mail), from a character not on your account, in your guild, or probably with any connection to you might be a red flag. Getting said gold in the mail from a character that is on a known gold seller account, that would definitely be a red flag.

Penny

07-03-2007, 06:54 PM

FYI the EULA is not legally binding and would not really hold up in court. This has happened numerous times, when a software company attempted to base its case on the terms provided in the EULA.the number of times a license agreement has been upheld dwarfs the number of times it hasn't.

there are aspects of eula's that are controversial (like shrinkwrap license agreements), but in general they are legally binding agreements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EULA

Katrala

07-03-2007, 07:02 PM

Stupid question time - How do you report a player?

Tanitha

07-03-2007, 07:15 PM

Simply petition a GM through the in-game interface. I reported somebody last night for wanting to buy Daggers with real world cash (Paypal) and the GMs were there in minutes to take care of it.

speciMaN

07-03-2007, 07:15 PM

the number of times a license agreement has been upheld dwarfs the number of times it hasn't.

there are aspects of eula's that are controversial (like shrinkwrap license agreements), but in general they are legally binding agreements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EULA

Yes, you know about wikipedia and how to link to it - good job, but you don't really understand the issues at hand. It's a simple fact that EULAs and any other post-sale "contracts" circumvent basic contract law.

For a contract to be valid, here are some facts:

- Both parties need to be legally able to enter a contract. Little Joey who just got WoW for his 12th birthday doesn't qualify, as do all of the under-18 years old players. And no, his parents are not liable if he clicks the "agree" button to install the game. The contract is nullified.

- Both parties need to understand the contract clearly.
I assure you most people do not read the EULA, and even if they did, few would understand it satisfactorily. Are you going to suggest we have a lawyer review the EULA for each piece of software we install? Um, no.

- When you purchase the game, you gain the right to use it. If the EULA is not presented to you PRIOR to the sale, it is null and void.

You say they've been upheld most of the time. What is your source for this information, and beyond that, what were the precedents of the cases. I'm sure there are a lot of cases that deal with something like trademark or copyright infringement - but not cases that are specifically and exclusively matters of EULA violations.

Case in point, if someone wants to sue Blizzard for banning their account, they can do so and most likely win in court. Blizzards current business practices could land it into quite a bit of legal trouble, and that is a fact.

djiss

07-03-2007, 07:22 PM

they don't have to. That is what database queries are good for. Getting the money in and of itself is not a warning sign. Getting the money from the in-game mail (suddenly getting 10,000 gold in the mail), from a character not on your account, in your guild, or probably with any connection to you might be a red flag. Getting said gold in the mail from a character that is on a known gold seller account, that would definitely be a red flag.

not only that, but if you receive 1000g from a flaged account is enough to flag yourself as a goldbuyer.

IMO blizz work like a bank. When see them to get some Credit, an automated system study your case, which flag are up, and depending on the flag they'll say NO or go to the next step. If you have some flag raised but not enough to say a definitive NO, your case is passed to a human who will study it more.
So same here, some flag are raised, if you have enough, BAM banned. If you have some but they are not sure, someone study the case. Their is a error margis, but prolly minimal. On the last thousands people banned, how much was really innocent? If every 6 month they ban like 80 000 account and 800 are wrongly banned, then it's 1%, and over 8 000 000 account, it's 0.01% of the account.
(I'm pulling number out of my ass)

Penny

07-03-2007, 07:22 PM

Xlorep DarkHelm

07-03-2007, 07:25 PM

Yes, you know about wikipedia and how to link to it - good job, but you don't really understand the issues at hand. It's a simple fact that EULAs and any other post-sale "contracts" circumvent basic contract law.

For a contract to be valid, here are some facts:

- Both parties need to be legally able to enter a contract. Little Joey who just got WoW for his 12th birthday doesn't qualify, as do all of the under-18 years old players. And no, his parents are not liable if he clicks the "agree" button to install the game. The contract is nullified.

Except that legally, Little Joey can't register an account. An adult must be there to register the account, legally. As such, Little Joey's parents are held accountable for his actions. Yes, they very much are liable if he clicks the "agree" button to install the game. Don't believe me, try it sometime.

- Both parties need to understand the contract clearly.
I assure you most people do not read the EULA, and even if they did, few would understand it satisfactorily. Are you going to suggest we have a lawyer review the EULA for each piece of software we install? Um, no.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. In a similar light, blindly accepting the terms of a contract without reading them is fundamentally stupid as well. How many contracts do you think were nullified because one party didn't bother to read the contract before signing it?

Are you suggesting that you need a lawyer to review every contract that an individual signs?

- When you purchase the game, you gain the right to use it. If the EULA is not presented to you PRIOR to the sale, it is null and void.

You license the game, you do not own the game. That's been the case for proprietary, commercial software for years. The EULA defines the terms of that license. And EULAs have been upheld a hell of a lot more times than not.

You say they've been upheld most of the time. What is your source for this information, and beyond that, what were the precedents of the cases. I'm sure there are a lot of cases that deal with something like trademark or copyright infringement - but not cases that are specifically and exclusively matters of EULA violations.

Could have sworn that the link listed some. Or are you arguing from ignorance?

Case in point, if someone wants to sue Blizzard for banning their account, they can do so and most likely win in court. Blizzards current business practices could land it into quite a bit of legal trouble, and that is a fact.

Actually, if they sued Blizzard for banning their account, they can do that, but might not win. At most, Blizzard might have to refund the "unused portion" of the money that the individual didn't get to use on their servers. Blizzard owns the servers, everything on them, the means to communicate with the servers, and the software within the client. All the end user/player has is a license to play the game. Period.

djiss

07-03-2007, 07:39 PM

For a contract to be valid, here are some facts:

EULA and ToC aren't really contract, more a list of rules you are asked to respect.

It's not "You can play and there's some rules we suggest you to respect.".

It's more "If you want to play, there's some rules you NEED to respect. If you dont want to respect them, we don't want your money and we don't care about your 15$ a month, there is 8 000 000 other player ready to pay AND respect them."

speciMaN

07-03-2007, 08:08 PM

Yes, I know about Wikipedia and I know how to link to it, do you know how to read it? Apparently not...There's your precedent - "ProCD v. Zeidenberg". Read it and weep.

Now, where's YOUR evidence? How about ONE case where a WoW ban was overturned in court?

Did you read the case you cited? The guy was reselling the database of phone numbers on a website - EULA aside, this is copyright infringement. It bears little relevance to what I am talking about. Even if someone sells gold or an in-game item, nothing is taken from Blizzard - only ownership transfers. Unlike the case you cited, where the guy selling access to the database undermines the business of the company that originally compiled the database.

I was not aware that Blizzard had ever been sued over its EULA, but this topic is about Blizzards liability to a player despite its EULA statments.

Since you seem to be an astute google user, read up about this case: Bragg v. Linden Lab

This case deals with what exactly I'm talking about. The user was caught "cheating" as defined by the EULA of Second Life, yet he sued Linden Lab since they banned him, seized his in-game land and resold it to other players.

In the context of WoW, it could be presumed that a player who pays blizzard the fee to access the game has some sort of ownership interest in their character, and that Blizzard cannot come in and ban without some sort of due process.

Except that legally, Little Joey can't register an account. An adult must be there to register the account, legally. As such, Little Joey's parents are held accountable for his actions. Yes, they very much are liable if he clicks the "agree" button to install the game. Don't believe me, try it sometime.

Most kids are quite capable of registering the account without their parents' help. Please show me some specific example where a minor agreed to a EULA, violated the EULA and then his parents were held liable. I don't believe you, and I don't have any kids to try it with.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. In a similar light, blindly accepting the terms of a contract without reading them is fundamentally stupid as well. How many contracts do you think were nullified because one party didn't bother to read the contract before signing it?

It's not an excuse, it's a debatable issue that can be evaluated in court. Many contracts are nullified or breached due to "unclear" or "unreasonable" terms.

You license the game, you do not own the game. That's been the case for proprietary, commercial software for years. The EULA defines the terms of that license. And EULAs have been upheld a hell of a lot more times than not.

Clearly you are like a human database of cases, and can make a statement like that with authority.

Actually, if they sued Blizzard for banning their account, they can do that, but might not win. At most, Blizzard might have to refund the "unused portion" of the money that the individual didn't get to use on their servers. Blizzard owns the servers, everything on them, the means to communicate with the servers, and the software within the client. All the end user/player has is a license to play the game. Period.

The nice thing about law is its debatable and not absolute, and the most likely outcome isn't always the outcome that happens.

Xlorep DarkHelm

07-03-2007, 08:22 PM

This message is hidden because speciMaN is on your ignore list.
This message is hidden because speciMaN is on your ignore list.

Special .

Penny

07-03-2007, 08:24 PM

Did you read the case you cited? The guy was reselling the database of phone numbers on a website - EULA aside, this is copyright infringement. It bears little relevance to what I am talking about. Even if someone sells gold or an in-game item, nothing is taken from Blizzard - only ownership transfers. Unlike the case you cited, where the guy selling access to the database undermines the business of the company that originally compiled the database.

I was not aware that Blizzard had ever been sued over its EULA, but this topic is about Blizzards liability to a player despite its EULA statments.

Since you seem to be an astute google user, read up about this case: Bragg v. Linden Lab

This case deals with what exactly I'm talking about. The user was caught "cheating" as defined by the EULA of Second Life, yet he sued Linden Lab since they banned him, seized his in-game land and resold it to other players.

In the context of WoW, it could be presumed that a player who pays blizzard the fee to access the game has some sort of ownership interest in their character, and that Blizzard cannot come in and ban without some sort of due process.How is a case that hasn't even been decided relevant, other than as a straw for you to clutch at?

I did read the case.The court held that Zeidenberg did accept the offer by clicking through. The court noted, "He had no choice, because the software splashed the license on the screen and would not let him proceed without indicating acceptance."The court then held the license valid and enforceable as a contract, same as your agreement when you click through on patch day.

Tanitha

07-03-2007, 08:26 PM

speciMan, I've been reading this with some interest. A quick question - and no judgement from this side - would you adhere to the Terms of Service and End User License Agreement? Or would you purchase gold or use a bot and so on?

speciMaN

07-03-2007, 09:26 PM

How is a case that hasn't even been decided relevant, other than as a straw for you to clutch at?

Well it hasn't been decided because current legislation has never had to deal with "digital goods". It is relevant because it deals specifically with what I am talking about.

I did read the case.The court then held the license valid and enforceable as a contract, same as your agreement when you click through on patch day.

Yes, in the case that reselling the database is similar to reselling pirated software. Do you really think the EULA was the deal maker for the plantiff in this case? It's a pretty clear-cut case of piracy/copyright infringement.

speciMan, I've been reading this with some interest. A quick question - and no judgement from this side - would you adhere to the Terms of Service and End User License Agreement? Or would you purchase gold or use a bot and so on?

I don't bot or purchase gold/items with real money, but I do not think anyone should be banned for doing so if they want to. Not everyone has the time required to play the game to get their char up to full power, and shortcuts like that make it more accessible and enjoyable to a wider range of people.

Tanitha

07-03-2007, 09:34 PM

I don't bot or purchase gold/items with real money, but I do not think anyone should be banned for doing so if they want to. Not everyone has the time required to play the game to get their char up to full power, and shortcuts like that make it more accessible and enjoyable to a wider range of people.

Thank you, I was half worried the question was going to be lost in the firestorm that this thread has become. My next question is this. When a private organisation or group sets a certain set of rules for the use of their setting, environment or service - even if it is chargeable - should people who choose to use that not obey those rules?

I'm not asking from a legal perspective, but more from a respect viewpoint. A bit like signing up to these forums. Even as a PAL if you breach the rules you get banned, losing your subscription and all associated fees.

See, I don't understand how people accept something and then simply decide they have the liberty to break that agreement. It feels a bit like me borrowing $100 off a friend for a pair of shoes and then arbitrarily deciding I won't pay them back. It just feels wrong, never mind the legality of it.

djiss

07-03-2007, 09:42 PM

I don't bot or purchase gold/items with real money, but I do not think anyone should be banned for doing so if they want to. Not everyone has the time required to play the game to get their char up to full power, and shortcuts like that make it more accessible and enjoyable to a wider range of people.

:ponder:
How is hard to understand? Blizzard own their server, Blizzard decide want you can do on THEIR server.
Their is no morality or ethic involved in that.
We don't discuss humanity right, It's a freak private buisness managing their private network.

Decide whatever you want to do at your home but when you are at MY home, I don't care if you think cigarette is good or not for health. If I say you don't smoke at my house, then YOU DON'T SMOKE AT MY HOUSE!

Police don't care if you think iyou should be allowed to drive a 100 mph because in another country allow people to drive at that speed or becaue you think your car is better than other and can hold better on the road. If there is a panel saying 60mph MAX then you drive at 60MPH MAX!

Blizzard decided you can't bot in WoW so you don't bot in WoW. POINT
You don't like it, no one twist your fk'ing arm to play WoW.
it's just freaking common sense!

Note : I posted the same text in another thread but I find it suitable here since it's seems to end to the same thing. Sorry to the mod.

edit: if you don't have the time to play... don't play. again common sense... not so common.

Your Average WoW Player

07-03-2007, 09:50 PM

I don't bot or purchase gold/items with real money, but I do not think anyone should be banned for doing so if they want to. Not everyone has the time required to play the game to get their char up to full power, and shortcuts like that make it more accessible and enjoyable to a wider range of people.

That's like saying "well, if someone wants to murder someone else, they should." I don't care if WoW is virtual and i'm making a real life connection, you're making the same connection almost.

Another issue with allowing people to simply bot or buy gold/items, is it would also apply to things like Powerleveling.

When you hire a Powerleveling service, you give them your account name and password. With that, I could find your home address, phone number, and possibly some credit card information, which can lead to big problems. With the EULA and TOS stating "Giving your account information is illegal" pretty much puts the ball back into the moron who hired the powerleveling service court. Blizzard can say "We warned you, it's here, you shouldn't of done it, now look what happened." and pretty much be out of the arguement.

speciMaN

07-03-2007, 09:53 PM

Thank you, I was half worried the question was going to be lost in the firestorm that this thread has become. My next question is this. When a private organisation or group sets a certain set of rules for the use of their setting, environment or service - even if it is chargeable - should people who choose to use that not obey those rules?

That's a valid question, and it really depends on the character of the person. Another thing to consider is that the only reason Blizzard makes any money is due to the 8 million people paying them a fee each month, and if a large enough portion of these 8 million people find that the organizations rules "don't work", the rules would need to change.

Prior to that, those who break the rules accept the risk involved and continue to do so.

I'm not asking from a legal perspective, but more from a respect viewpoint. A bit like signing up to these forums. Even as a PAL if you breach the rules you get banned, losing your subscription and all associated fees.

I'd say that most people will respect any reasonable set of rules. This place has reasonable rules, most users abide by them.

See, I don't understand how people accept something and then simply decide they have the liberty to break that agreement. It feels a bit like me borrowing $100 off a friend for a pair of shoes and then arbitrarily deciding I won't pay them back. It just feels wrong, never mind the legality of it.

I would say that in the context of WoW, people who start to play it do not originally intend to buy gold or pay for leveling. It is only AFTER they've played the game that they realize the fun starts at level 70, and you need a lot of in-game money to enjoy that level. Not only that, but to get to that level, they need to put a lot of game time in.

It's not difficult or unreasonable to justify power leveling or buying gold. Would I do it? No, but I can see why other people would and I do not see anything wrong with it, morally, ethically or otherwise.

That's like saying "well, if someone wants to murder someone else, they should." I don't care if WoW is virtual and this is real life, you're making the same connection almost.

Murder has an adverse effect on the victim. These shortcuts do not deprive you of any enjoyment, other than the player is one less you can easily gank. :)

Your Average WoW Player

07-03-2007, 09:56 PM

Murder has an adverse effect on the victim. These shortcuts do not deprive you of any enjoyment, other than the player is one less you can easily gank. :)

You're pretty much saying the same thing. If people want to do something illegal, then they should be able to scot-free.

Edit: And I don't gank, I play on a PvE server.

Xlorep DarkHelm

07-03-2007, 09:57 PM

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Tanitha

07-03-2007, 10:13 PM

That's a valid question, and it really depends on the character of the person. Another thing to consider is that the only reason Blizzard makes any money is due to the 8 million people paying them a fee each month, and if a large enough portion of these 8 million people find that the organizations rules "don't work", the rules would need to change.

I'm not quoting the entire reply, it's up there if anyone needs to refer to it. Besides, I dislike the point for point discussion that threads so often devolves into - it detracts from the conversational aspect of it.

From what I've seen in this thread though, the sample of players we are looking at seem to believe that gold buying market is wrong. They might not be representative of the World of Warcraft player base as a whole, but it does seem to be the mood here.

On a personal level, I can understand the desire to do it. Like any other player I would love to have a fully tricked out character with all the bells and whistles. The player - character association and development thereof is part of what makes these games so absolutely fabulous. Unfortunately, my real life schedule permits me only a few hours to play every week so at my current schedule I might hit level 70 about this time next year.

That type of schedule does not allow a player to necessarily have access to the equipment, enchantments and gems they might want. And yes, being able to buy the gold certainly does seem like a nice alternative. In effect, trading where you can spend your time for where you cannot.

On the other hand, that seems to defeat the purpose of playing the game. From a personal perspective it will diminish the accomplishment significantly if I had purchased an item, rather than playing for it. And this is of course discounting the social implications of the service and what it means to the people who farm the gold for resale. Of course, other players will feel differently.

Then there are games like Second Life, Project Entropia and a whole slew of Eastern MMORPGs who has created a real world to game world funds transfer and have embraced that concept. I'd warrant a guess that they are not plagued by gold sellers, but I'd also guess that botting might be more rampant there. Half of me wonders why Blizzard never embraced that concept and made it possible for gold purchases to be done legally through approved channels. Almost like buying a game card.

In the end though, that will devalue the game too much for me personally. It would feel as if I've used a maphack or godmode cheat in another game and I just could not do that. I love the game too much.

Blizzard seems to feel the same. And, while their fanbase are still paying subscription fees and not leaving the game in droves, I'd guess they are still 100% justified in banning when somebody uses a powerleveling service or buys gold. The community hasn't gotten to the point where they want that to be allowed yet.

djiss

07-03-2007, 10:32 PM

Half of me wonders why Blizzard never embraced that concept and made it possible for gold purchases to be done legally through approved channels. Almost like buying a game card.

Simple answer from my opinion...

My father have more money that your so I'm wearing epic and you suck.
A bit like when you bought your first car after worked many month and then Daddy's son come with his BMW paid by his father society (and deducted from tax, of course) laught at your "wreck".

I stay away of people like that. Even more game who promote that.

Herald of Doom

07-03-2007, 10:34 PM

specimans posts are funny to read, keep going! :)

Eligibility.
You represent that you are an adult in your country of residence. You agree to these Terms of Use on behalf of yourself and, at your discretion, for one (1) minor child for whom you are a parent or guardian and whom you have authorized to use the account you create on the Service.

That looks to me that you need to be a legal adult in order to sign up. Ofcourse I'm no lawyer, so i may have misread that :)

HoD

Tanitha

07-03-2007, 10:38 PM

I stay away of people like that. Even more game who promote that.

Twink! :laugh:

kcma

07-03-2007, 10:45 PM

i completely embrace the purchase of gold through bliz. gunbound inspired. and exactly what tanitha says, what do u think twinks are djiss ;) most ppl who is epiced out will laugh at your wreck, regardless of how it's paid for. daddy's money or 2 monthsh in 40men raid.

"hahaha, you cant RAID so you wear your crappy blue!! lame!!"

how is that any different? that and my stance on gold buying isn't exactly a secret :p

unbdm

07-03-2007, 11:00 PM

Simple answer from my opinion...

My father have more money that your so I'm wearing epic and you suck.
A bit like when you bought your first car after worked many month and then Daddy's son come with his BMW paid by his father society (and deducted from tax, of course) laught at your "wreck".

I stay away of people like that. Even more game who promote that.

I don't really endorse gold buying, but I do find it frusterating that so many people are able to spend so much time on this game that a working stiff with a family really is at a disadvantage. If time = money, then set a price based on flat rate estimates of time to obtain gold at a given level. Leave the good epics out of reach by making them BOP. Yes you would have the "my daddy has more money" scenario, but it would only take the edge off of leveling, it won't level for you, of course neither does gold buying.

All of that said, I'm glad the new instances are shorter. I would have never been able raid (again, working stiff). I think the new BC content may very well address my concern that casual players have a hard time being competative.

Of course now that I'm finaly to higher level, the thought of spending real $$ for in game stuff that is free seems pretty nuts... but when end game was over the distant horizen, the thought that I wish I could throw some $$ at this was born.... I don't think I have any high moral concerns about a game... but in hindsite, I'm glad I played it straight... Gold doesn't help that much if your goal is to level up, I replace most gear every few levels anyway, up until 50 at least.

Barry

kcma

07-03-2007, 11:04 PM

not to mention that my father has more money applys without gold buying too djiss.

"haha, my father has more money than you so i have more time to sit on my ass all day and RAID! while you work that poopy thing you call a job to pay for your car and rent that is a wreck and a hole in the wall!"

does that make you want to stay away from wow? that's the nature of people regardless of the mechanic used to achive the result. pricks with rich daddy will always be pricks with rich daddy. whether daddy buys them gold or time to RAID :)

djiss

07-03-2007, 11:08 PM

Twink! :laugh:
I knew someone would bring that. :smiley:
You know like me twink arent all like that.
Stigg? Did you bought your gold?

edit: yeah I see the point, so I take back what I said. :smiley:

Xlorep DarkHelm

07-03-2007, 11:11 PM

I don't really endorse gold buying, but I do find it frusterating that so many people are able to spend so much time on this game that a working stiff with a family really is at a disadvantage. If time = money, then set a price based on flat rate estimates of time to obtain gold at a given level. Leave the good epics out of reach by making them BOP. Yes you would have the "my daddy has more money" scenario, but it would only take the edge off of leveling, it won't level for you, of course neither does gold buying.

Considering I'm a working stiff with a family, I still don't see the need to ever, ever gold buy. with a full-time job, plus half-time school, and a fiancee with 2 kids (and a third one on the way), I have but a couple hours a week to spend in WoW. I think it's cool that some people can spend more time, but it doesn't make me jealous or envious of them. Just because someone got better items than I do, big deal. Leveling in this game is a snap (comparatively to other games), and I still got one of my level 60's to 70 since the expansion -- without strictly devoting my limited time to it even (I got my Blood Elf to 24, and my Draenei to 20 as well).

All of that said, I'm glad the new instances are shorter. I would have never been able raid (again, working stiff). I think the new BC content may very well address my concern that casual players have a hard time being competative.

Which is a good thing for most. I've done one instance in Outland, the Underbog, and was pleasantly surprised with how short it was.

Tanitha

07-03-2007, 11:14 PM

You know like me twink arent all like that.

I know, I was saying it in jest thus the smiley at the end. Of course, there was a bit of a serious touch to it as well.

From the ethical perspective you were espousing though there seemed to be little difference between your higher level character (The so called rich daddy) funding the twink character (Your son) to gain bragging rights (Ability to obliterate non-twinked players).

Edit:
None of that though makes gold buying right for me. But, I admire the work of companies that embrace that and still develop a financially viable and enjoyable game. Dior has opened shop in Second Life. Reuters is in there. Entropia has a game-world linked debit card you can use at certain ATMs in the real world. Those are all aspects of the game world and real world interaction that fascinate me.

djiss

07-03-2007, 11:22 PM

to gain bragging rights (Ability to spit on killed player).
Fixed.
I don't care i'm getting killed, but a twink who 1-shot me THEN spit on the corpse...

But yeah beside that you're right daddy = high level, twink = son

speciMaN

07-03-2007, 11:26 PM

Half of me wonders why Blizzard never embraced that concept and made it possible for gold purchases to be done legally through approved channels. Almost like buying a game card.

Blizzard themselves could not sell gold or items; it would be a massive conflict of interests. If Blizzard was to enter the gold/item selling market, do you think they'd grind for the stuff they sell like the current crop of gold farmers do? Chances are no, because that would not be profitable.

What Blizzard would do is credit players with whatever amount of currency they purchase - without grinding for it, completely bypassing the in game economy. This in effect would cause economic degradation within the game. This is basically what people now are (mistakingly) claiming gold farmers are doing.

What Blizzard should do is make it possible for people to trade their in-game items and gold on their website, either as a flat out trade or for cash.

specimans posts are funny to read, keep going! :)

Eligibility.
You represent that you are an adult in your country of residence. You agree to these Terms of Use on behalf of yourself and, at your discretion, for one (1) minor child for whom you are a parent or guardian and whom you have authorized to use the account you create on the Service.

That looks to me that you need to be a legal adult in order to sign up. Ofcourse I'm no lawyer, so i may have misread that :)

HoD

Glad to be amusing.

Despite what the EULA states about having to be an adult (which is redundant, because contract law requires one to be an adult to enter a contract), do you think that is going to stop some kid from installing and playing the game?

Keep in mind that you do not need to be an adult to buy/download the game, or a game card for it.

Beruen

07-03-2007, 11:59 PM

Despite what the EULA states about having to be an adult (which is redundant, because contract law requires one to be an adult to enter a contract), do you think that is going to stop some kid from installing and playing the game?

In the US, the requirement for a credit card covers most cases. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but while you can play WoW without ever charging anything to the CC, but you do have to have one (in the US). I even suspect that this point is exactly why the CC requirement is there even if you don't charge anything to it.

I've only known one person that managed to get a credit card in their own name legitimately before the age of 18, the rest got one as an additional card holder on their parent's account, which leaves the parent liable for much of what the dependent does with the card.

Xlorep DarkHelm

08-03-2007, 12:10 AM

speciMaN seems to still be arguing in circles. He postulates that the EULA isn't a binding contract, then claims that the EULA stating that it has to be an adult who signs up for the account is redundant because contract law requires one to be an adult to enter a contract. So, if the EULA is a contract, then it is bound by contract law. If it isn't a contract, then it isn't bound by contract law. Can't have it both ways.

I only knew he said this, thanks to Beruen quoting him. Like I've said before, all I see is:

This message is hidden because speciMaN is on your ignore list.

From speciMaN's posts directly.

Valas Azuviir

08-03-2007, 12:40 AM

Blizzard's ToS is no different from the forum rules we have here. Whether or not folks think said rules are reasonable or not is completely irrelevant. Three choices really, a) obey them, b) leave, c) break the rules and get nailed because of it. Plain and simple really.

Which brings me to my next point. SpeciMaN, Xlorep was nice enough to point out the forum rule with regards to back to back posting (That would be Commandment 2, final section). You didn't pay heed, and I've just spent quite some time having to merge all those back to back posts.

I suggest you start obeying our rules. If, you don't.. Well...
*Polishes the ban hammer*

speciMaN

08-03-2007, 05:44 AM

delete this

speciMaN

08-03-2007, 05:47 AM

In the US, the requirement for a credit card covers most cases. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but while you can play WoW without ever charging anything to the CC, but you do have to have one (in the US). I even suspect that this point is exactly why the CC requirement is there even if you don't charge anything to it.

I've only known one person that managed to get a credit card in their own name legitimately before the age of 18, the rest got one as an additional card holder on their parent's account, which leaves the parent liable for much of what the dependent does with the card.

For the agreement to be relevant, it would have to be presented and accepted to the person entering the CC information...however I am pretty sure you can play the game without a CC by downloading the client and entering a valid time card. I dunno, never tried that.

Either way, it's quite debatable.

speciMaN seems to still be arguing in circles. He postulates that the EULA isn't a binding contract, then claims that the EULA stating that it has to be an adult who signs up for the account is redundant because contract law requires one to be an adult to enter a contract. So, if the EULA is a contract, then it is bound by contract law. If it isn't a contract, then it isn't bound by contract law. Can't have it both ways.

I only knew he said this, thanks to Beruen quoting him. Like I've said before, all I see is:

You are obfuscating a simple point with nonsense. The EULA is intended to be a contract, but because it does not ensure that the one accepting it can legally enter a contract, it invalidates itself.

Wait, I thought your name seems familiar. You bought my "wooden shield" for 500g! Thanks man!

Blizzard's ToS is no different from the forum rules we have here. Whether or not folks think said rules are reasonable or not is completely irrelevant. Three choices really, a) obey them, b) leave, c) break the rules and get nailed because of it. Plain and simple really.

Which brings me to my next point. SpeciMaN, Xlorep was nice enough to point out the forum rule with regards to back to back posting (That would be Commandment 2, final section). You didn't pay heed, and I've just spent quite some time having to merge all those back to back posts.

I suggest you start obeying our rules. If, you don't.. Well...
*Polishes the ban hammer*

All replies into one post. Gotcha. :)

SLUGFly

08-03-2007, 05:57 AM

while you can play WoW without ever charging anything to the CC, but you do have to have one (in the US).

PLEASE!!! SOMEBODY refute this!! I am not eligable for a CC because I'm an expat (and you have to sign for one in person) and I'm banking several hundred dollars and a load of legwork on the (supposed) fact that I'll be able to initiate an account using gamecards and without ever using a credit card!

PLEASE somebody tell me I haven't wasted my time, cash and hopes!

HussamAlkarim

08-03-2007, 07:34 AM

Okay, just letting you in on a wonderful piece of info. I'm not sure if they are available in your area, but around my area you can get Visa Gift Cards. They work exactly like a CC just you load them with money like a gift card. You can use it to let them do there little 2 dollarish validation on ... and then set it to do recurring 6 months on it... they are rechargable.. Not usually much legwork.. and several hundred dollars on one will get you alot of wow time.

Just some helpful info from your friendly neighborhood zoomie.

Xlorep DarkHelm

08-03-2007, 07:56 AM

Well, hopefully they have those where he lives. Considering that an "expat would mean he's not in the US...

ferofax

08-03-2007, 07:59 AM

...nope, i dont think you can create an account using game cards. however, buying the boxed set gives you your own CD key (which is practically your own account), plus a month of subscription. after that, its either you continue your subscription through credit cards, or use game cards, or cancel the account.

...and we're straying from the topic. :grin:

amgyn

08-03-2007, 08:24 AM

seriously... if you dont like the rules... dont play the game...

simple as that.

Gealach

08-03-2007, 07:17 PM

It seems to me that if a minor clicks on the "I agree" button, then while he's not responsible for entering into a contract, neither is Blizzard. They can't sue him, but it seems to me thet he can't sue them either since no contract was entered into. Little Johnny loses nothing of what was actually bought (CDs, a pretty box, a manual, maybe a few other things).

This is similar to how a credit card company is fully within their rights to cancel any credit card they find has been issued to an unauthorized/ineligible party.

You can own your box and disks all you want, but it doesn't entitle you to anything on Blizzard's servers.

In re the Linden Labs case, I suspect cases like that are precisely WHY you cannot purchase gold straight from Blizzard. They have bent over backwards to eliminate the idea of a real money to WoW gold exchange rate, whereas Linden Labs promotes an exchange rate. THere will be no SoE-style exchange station, no measurement of in-game GDP, and (Blizzard hopes) no attempt on the part of real world governments to tax your in-game gold balances.

The minute a legit game money to real money exchange rate is established, real world governments can start taxing your in-game earnings as assets. There have been moves on the part of the US Congress to do exactly that, and if you don't think other countries will follow suit, then you haven't been paying attention to recent moves toward US-style IP and copyright laws elsewhere, especially in Europe and Canada.

THe larger that in-game economies get, the greater desire on the parts of governments to tax it, terrorist groups to use it as a way of transferring money outside government control, etc. But as long as game economies are kept completely separate from the real world, the size of the economy isn't clearly defineable in terms of actual dollars and can thus escape getting screwed with by the real world.

If minors and gold sellers are endangering my ability to enjoy the game without having my in-game gold count against me on a 1040 form, then I say screw them and their lack of ability to buy or sell epics.

speciMaN

08-03-2007, 10:47 PM

In re the Linden Labs case, I suspect cases like that are precisely WHY you cannot purchase gold straight from Blizzard. They have bent over backwards to eliminate the idea of a real money to WoW gold exchange rate, whereas Linden Labs promotes an exchange rate. THere will be no SoE-style exchange station, no measurement of in-game GDP, and (Blizzard hopes) no attempt on the part of real world governments to tax your in-game gold balances.

The minute a legit game money to real money exchange rate is established, real world governments can start taxing your in-game earnings as assets. There have been moves on the part of the US Congress to do exactly that, and if you don't think other countries will follow suit, then you haven't been paying attention to recent moves toward US-style IP and copyright laws elsewhere, especially in Europe and Canada.

THe larger that in-game economies get, the greater desire on the parts of governments to tax it, terrorist groups to use it as a way of transferring money outside government control, etc. But as long as game economies are kept completely separate from the real world, the size of the economy isn't clearly defineable in terms of actual dollars and can thus escape getting screwed with by the real world.

If minors and gold sellers are endangering my ability to enjoy the game without having my in-game gold count against me on a 1040 form, then I say screw them and their lack of ability to buy or sell epics.

This is going off-topic, but I definitely think there are going to be MMO games that try to embrace digital to real-world currency exchange. Blizzard makes some minor attempts to prevent inflation by forcing a lot of items to "bind" to the player, so they cannot be traded. This prevents item's from devaluing. They also require that a lot of in-game services charge fees, as well as limits on how often monsters drop quality items.

But those mechanisms alone do not allow for the game to have an economy that is compatible with the real world. In RL we have limited resources, and many products require a certain amount of man-hours to produce. During production, or even before, in R&D, money must be spent. For a game to have a functional economy, it has to be subject to the limitations that make an economy work, i.e. there has to be a finite amount of minerals that a player can mine, a limit on how many of a particular item can exist (based on available resources in the game), the time to produce an item would have to be drastically prolonged, etc.

I don't see WoW gold falling into the taxable income category, ever. There are too many discrepancies. But games that improve upon concepts like Second Life, they're prime targets for real-world taxation.

Your Average WoW Player

08-03-2007, 10:51 PM

At this rate this topic is going to rival the speculation topic on the new Alliance race that ran from Blizzcon in 2005 (October) to E-3 of 2006 (May). I think we got that topic up to 70 some-odd pages. :undecided:

Edit: If you're at all curious, that was the second biggest topic ever produced by this site. The largest was the original Server is Down Lounge, before some moron hacked into the forums and purged the entire site clean.

Gealach

09-03-2007, 05:17 AM

speciMaN

09-03-2007, 06:52 AM

Well, its only off topic because you decided not to address the issue I brought up first, which is that if little Johnny isn't old enough to legally enter into a contract, then Blizzard isn't legally obligated to give them jack beyond the box and disks they picked up at the store.

I'm not interested in beating a dead horse. Law is debatable, and until it is tried in court and there is a precedent, anything we say is purely speculative. This has never been tried in court.

Money isn't based on finite resources, money is based on the unit of human labor. Generating currency in WoW is the result of human labor one way or the other. Part of the whole "time is money" thing.

Money is not based soley on labor. Labor is a viewed as a commodity in business, the cost of paying an employee is just that - another cost. The value of money is based on supply and demand for a product or service.

If you google the terms 'taxation' and 'virtual economies' you'll find lots of stuff about it, and provisions for doing it are currently up for going into the tax code, albeit in preliminary form. One of the more typical, mainstream articles dealing with it can be found at http://news.com.com/2100-1043_3-6140298.html.

I found a quote on the second page to be especially interesting:

And that is the only true requirement necessary before taxation begins. So yes, gold selling and power levelling DO lead directly to my having to report game income some day because they generate profits. WHen an item is traded using real money (as gold buying and selling would be in your scenario), then it is perceived to have a real world value just like anything on the commodities market. And Blizzard would prefer that not happen to WoW. And I'm in agreement with them.

People selling gold, assuming they are a properly registered business, already pay taxes. They are classified as a service, and any income they generate as a result of selling gold is legally taxable income. If someone buys gold from them, the buyer can choose to remit "use tax", which is tax you pay to your state for out of state purchases that were not charged sales tax.

What you're suggesting is no different than someone paying for an intangible product, which is nothing new - but your conclusions seem very unrealistic. Simply because a service provides in game items in exchange for real money, does not automatically assign a value to all in-game items, therefore making them taxable to all players. Digital goods have no intrinsic value, their value is 100% arbitrary.

Let's say you buy a digital stock photo to use in a publication, that act does not imply that ALL digital pictures suddenly have a dollar value that is taxable. The values are far too arbitrary for that to work. The photo is provided as part of a service, and the company providing the service is taxed. How much the picture sells for depends on many abstract factors, such as what it is, perceived quality and value to the buyer. If it were a clear picture of some rare new species of birds, it would probably sell for a lot to National Geographic, but sell for little or nothing to a mag like Playboy.

So it is unlikely that we'll be taxed for acquiring gold or items in WoW. If someone chooses to sell the gold or items, then they should be treated like any other entity which provides an intangible service...and I think that's how it already is.

MacBlimp

09-03-2007, 10:11 AM

Please stop for a moment to consider that it's a GAME we're discussing here. Nothing more, really. No matter how you twist and turn it, or what definitions you choose, WoW remains a game.

Using real-life legislation in order to discuss wether or not you should be allowed to stray from the rules inherent in the game is, no offence to anyone, rather ridiculus. The rules for any game is made specifically for that game, applies to that game only, and is not affected by the rules of any other game, or any other rules at all for that matter. It's actually that simple.

So, who makes the rules for WoW? Blizzard. They made the game, they make the rules. Granted, the rules may be subject to change over time, but any eventual changes will come from Blizz. Trying to use outside legislation to justify breaking the ingame rules (botting, gold trade, hacks, exploits, whatever) just doesn't make sense. And as in any other game, if you don't play by the rules, you will eventually be told to go play somewhere else (banned). Once again, very simple.

And why even try to justify the use botting and similar activities? I repeat: WoW is a game. Now, the purpose of every game, every single one, is that it is made to be played. People's reasons for playing them might differ, sure, but the essence remains. A game is supposed to be played by people. Using a program to play for you, for whatever reason, violates this simple principle. Would you for example use a chess program to play for you in a chess tournament because you couldn't be bothered to play the preliminary rounds yourself? Of course not. Would you hire a professional footballer to play for you in the school cup because, once again, you yourself couldn't be bothered to play before the endgame? I think not. The entire concept of using bot programs, whatever reasons you might provide, no matter how you try to justify it, is so far from the essence of any game that I fail to see how any valid argument can be made. Unless of course the use of bots were allowed in accordance to the game rules, which is not the case.

moopy

09-03-2007, 02:28 PM

This is going off-topic, but I definitely think there are going to be MMO games that try to embrace digital to real-world currency exchange. Blizzard makes some minor attempts to prevent inflation by forcing a lot of items to "bind" to the player, so they cannot be traded. This prevents item's from devaluing. They also require that a lot of in-game services charge fees, as well as limits on how often monsters drop quality items.

No, "item's" still drop in value badly in practical terms. It's sometimes called MUDflation. See how many people get excited about Quel'Serrar these days, and you'll also see how many people don't understand how to itemise or have explored the beyond the portal properly. Despite the fact that you see loads of people running around at lv 70 in their tier 2, they are only doing it for e-peen, as the blue clown suits would make them vastly more powerful if well-chosen. The "item's" that they're still using have less actual value because Blizzard have upped the ante. The same happened when the level cap was raised to 60, same happens in all MMOs with stats and gear.

However, this process of MUDflation applies to the mobs as well as the players, so people need this better gear to stay in the running, it's an elegantly simple business model, as it keeps them locked into an endless upgrade cycle, paying their subscriptions. This isn't a value judgement, merely an observation, of course. I think it provides pretty good entertainment for the price, myself.

As for "going to be".. there already are. Not just the Sony example, there are asian MMOs where you need to pay for certain bits of kit. Also, while it's not really a game, more a sort of jumped-up ugly IRC client for furries, there's always Second Life. Game companies will do whatever makes money, they aren't charities. Right now, the big buzz at GDC is various cookie cutter media outfits trying to jump on the MMO bandwagon, having that the amount that Blizz is making from WoW is TEH SICKNESS(tm). So far, nothing post-WoW has been able to unseat it, but there are folks with very deep pockets trying- no-one's found the magical blend of herbs and spices.. yet.

(Like Tanitha (I think), I'd jump for joy at a more Syndicate-ish MMO. Hell, give me a Shadowrun-based one if you must. Biomods > enchants :)

However, an awful lot of folks will be jumping on the bandwagon, more of them will go for some form of currency exchange, in a bid to attract time-poor casual players who want instant e-peen. Might not be the smartest move in the world, if it attracts the taxman, but hey :)

For a hilariously lacking-in-details look at the MMO buzz at the GDC, see:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6431207.stm

djiss

09-03-2007, 04:49 PM

At this rate this topic is going to rival the speculation topic on the new Alliance race that ran from Blizzcon in 2005 (October) to E-3 of 2006 (May). I think we got that topic up to 70 some-odd pages. :undecided:
That need to beat the Twink thread first who got like 45 pages. :smiley:

on topic,

Well, its only off topic because you decided not to address the issue I brought up first, which is that if little Johnny isn't old enough to legally enter into a contract, then Blizzard isn't legally obligated to give them jack beyond the box and disks they picked up at the store.

I'm not interested in beating a dead horse. Law is debatable, and until it is tried in court and there is a precedent, anything we say is purely speculative. This has never been tried in court.
39.99 is for the box, CD, instuction book no one read. If everything is in there, Blizzard isn't forced to refund you.
14.99$/month is to pay the monthly service you use (connect to wow server).

If you break the rules, there arent forced to refund you since you broke it, not them. You are the one who didn't respected the "contract". The contract is simple, you need to respect our rule to play on our server. If you paid 3 month in advance, then OK Blizzard should refund the "unused" pre-paid month, but no the current one.

Honnestly, with your "law is debatable", I think we are wasting our time. People who think like that and think they are right...
there is nothing to debate, you cheated, in OUR rule you are'nt allowed to do XYZ thing and you didnt them, you cheated, you are banned.

But I guess you think you have the right to use your Horse in chess like a Queen since you seems to think it's not "cheating".

Gealach

09-03-2007, 05:57 PM

Money is not based soley on labor. Labor is a viewed as a commodity in business, the cost of paying an employee is just that - another cost. The value of money is based on supply and demand for a product or service.

The posting of exchange rates at IGN constitutes evidence of a supply and demand.

People selling gold, assuming they are a properly registered business, already pay taxes.

Most of them are of course not registered currently, but if Blizzard legitimized it they prolly would be. Fact is, I have to pay sales tax on software I download, a purely digital product.

They are classified as a service, and any income they generate as a result of selling gold is legally taxable income.

Its only classified as a service if the gold doesn't continue to have value afterwards. If I'm able to resell gold, for example, then that constitutes as much intrinsic value as certain little green pieces of paper because its value is backed by the ability to buy things in game with it or exchange it for real world money.

What you're suggesting is no different than someone paying for an intangible product, which is nothing new - but your conclusions seem very unrealistic. Simply because a service provides in game items in exchange for real money, does not automatically assign a value to all in-game items, therefore making them taxable to all players.

If it has a resale value, which WoW gold would if the brakes on this behavior were removed, then it means it has a value. Australia already taxes Second Life (http://www.theage.com.au/news/biztech/virtual-world-tax-man-cometh/2006/10/30/1162056925483.html), and the only difference between Second Life and WoW is that Blizzard's hardline stance limits liquidity. If they legitimized the practice of buying and selling gold, characters, etc, then at least under US and Australian law it becomes taxable.

According to (http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/19/1733246) Jim Saxton (R-New Jersey) of the congressional Joint Economic Committee:

Under current law, Saxton said if a transaction takes place solely within a virtual world there is no 'taxable event.'

If real money is used, its no longer taking place solely in a virtual world and thus, under law, becomes a taxable event.

Digital goods have no intrinsic value, their value is 100% arbitrary.

Let's say you buy a digital stock photo to use in a publication, that act does not imply that ALL digital pictures suddenly have a dollar value that is taxable. The values are far too arbitrary for that to work. The photo is provided as part of a service, and the company providing the service is taxed. How much the picture sells for depends on many abstract factors, such as what it is, perceived quality and value to the buyer. If it were a clear picture of some rare new species of birds, it would probably sell for a lot to National Geographic, but sell for little or nothing to a mag like Playboy.

What you say would only apply if one pile of WoW gold had a different value than a different pile. But there's nothing to distinguish one pile of gold from another, whereas photos are each unique. If WoW gold trading were legitimized, its value would also standardize and fluctuate in a similar manner to real world currency.

So it is unlikely that we'll be taxed for acquiring gold or items in WoW. If someone chooses to sell the gold or items, then they should be treated like any other entity which provides an intangible service...and I think that's how it already is.

Perhaps if power levelling alone were legitimized, it could be classified that way. Gold selling however cannot be allowed without risk of becoming taxable.

I think you would see people essentially become shunned by their server communities if they are suspected of having been power levelled simply because no one wants to adventure with someone who doesn't know what the hell he's doing. I could also see those sorts of accusations poisoning the community that Blizzard is trying to encourage. Thus I also support banning power levelling.

Xlorep DarkHelm

09-03-2007, 06:23 PM

Please stop for a moment to consider that it's a GAME we're discussing here. Nothing more, really. No matter how you twist and turn it, or what definitions you choose, WoW remains a game.

It is a game and a social environment. As such, using the "it's just a game" argument is a bit disingenuous. If it was a single-player game, I would have no problems with cheating. But since it is a massively multiplayer game, your actions can very easily affect others in the game -- that is kind of the point. When you cheat, it hurts others. As such, I am very strongly against the idea of cheating in an MMO.

Using real-life legislation in order to discuss wether or not you should be allowed to stray from the rules inherent in the game is, no offence to anyone, rather ridiculus. The rules for any game is made specifically for that game, applies to that game only, and is not affected by the rules of any other game, or any other rules at all for that matter. It's actually that simple.

Using real-life legislation relating to social interactions in a social-based game is very relevant, and holds significant credence when talking about WoW. Now, the real-world legislation in this matter which is important, is strictly dealing with -- who gets to make the rules and enforce them for a privately-owned location. Basically -- if you go into a club, cause a problem, the bouncers are going to throw you out. In that same regard, if you go into WoW, cause a problem (cheating), the "bouncers" (GMs) are going to throw you out (ban you).

So, who makes the rules for WoW? Blizzard. They made the game, they make the rules. Granted, the rules may be subject to change over time, but any eventual changes will come from Blizz. Trying to use outside legislation to justify breaking the ingame rules (botting, gold trade, hacks, exploits, whatever) just doesn't make sense. And as in any other game, if you don't play by the rules, you will eventually be told to go play somewhere else (banned). Once again, very simple.

That's true. But then again, any efforts to justify botting, hacking, and overall cheating is a completely pointless exercise in futility anyway.

And why even try to justify the use botting and similar activities? I repeat: WoW is a game. Now, the purpose of every game, every single one, is that it is made to be played. People's reasons for playing them might differ, sure, but the essence remains. A game is supposed to be played by people. Using a program to play for you, for whatever reason, violates this simple principle. Would you for example use a chess program to play for you in a chess tournament because you couldn't be bothered to play the preliminary rounds yourself? Of course not. Would you hire a professional footballer to play for you in the school cup because, once again, you yourself couldn't be bothered to play before the endgame? I think not. The entire concept of using bot programs, whatever reasons you might provide, no matter how you try to justify it, is so far from the essence of any game that I fail to see how any valid argument can be made. Unless of course the use of bots were allowed in accordance to the game rules, which is not the case.

Good point.

speciMaN

09-03-2007, 11:20 PM

The posting of exchange rates at IGN constitutes evidence of a supply and demand.

Yes, exactly, and?

Most of them are of course not registered currently, but if Blizzard legitimized it they prolly would be. Fact is, I have to pay sales tax on software I download, a purely digital product.

Most resellers only charge sales tax if you reside in the same state as they do business, else you are expected by your state to file "use tax", which is voluntary.

Its only classified as a service if the gold doesn't continue to have value afterwards. If I'm able to resell gold, for example, then that constitutes as much intrinsic value as certain little green pieces of paper because its value is backed by the ability to buy things in game with it or exchange it for real world money.

I think it's a service always. If I hire a company to make a website, which I later resell at a profit, does that make the original company who made the website NOT a service?

Intrinsic value means actual value...the intrinsic value of a coin is the value of the metal it is made of. Remember how they stopped making pennies out of pure copper because the value of the copper was more than the face value of the penny itself? Digital goods have no intrinsic value, which means there is no basis for determining what they're actually worth beyond what someone is willing to pay. Taxes cannot (should not) be arbitrary.

What you say would only apply if one pile of WoW gold had a different value than a different pile. But there's nothing to distinguish one pile of gold from another, whereas photos are each unique. If WoW gold trading were legitimized, its value would also standardize and fluctuate in a similar manner to real world currency.

The exchange rate of WoW gold varies from realm to realm based on supply and demand as far as I know, as does the buying power of two equal piles of WoW gold on two different realms.

Perhaps if power levelling alone were legitimized, it could be classified that way. Gold selling however cannot be allowed without risk of becoming taxable.

I think you would see people essentially become shunned by their server communities if they are suspected of having been power levelled simply because no one wants to adventure with someone who doesn't know what the hell he's doing. I could also see those sorts of accusations poisoning the community that Blizzard is trying to encourage. Thus I also support banning power levelling.

I think someone who pays for powerleveling without ever playing the game is a fool, but I can see that someone who already played thru to level 60-70 and just wants an alt to mess around with, it might be worth it to them. Then again, paying $500 just to "mess around" doesn't exactly escape the classification of them being a fool.

MacBlimp

09-03-2007, 11:54 PM

Also remember that in a gold trade, wether it's between friends or a gold seller and a buyer, the gold itself never changes ownership. The gold does belong to Blizzard, as do the characters, gear, etc on the involved accounts, it doesn't in any way belong to any of the parties involved in the actual trade. Thus the seller ends up selling a product that isn't theirs and the buyer technically recieves nothing for their money/payment.

Does selling something you don't own make any sense? Or buying nothing for that matter? The only thing the buyer/seller actually owns is the license to play the game (and the physical discs, manual, etc), and as pointed out by several others this license is only valid as long as you act in accordance with it.

Also, to elaborate a bit on my earlier post about WoW being "just a game":

WoW is a game, and as such cannot be directly compared with any real life situation. It is however a game that in many ways mimics real life, and also carries a substancial social component (as do most other games as well, as games in their very nature often involves more than one person). But there is a big difference between a game mimicing a real world by providing a fictional reality, and reality itself, and thus using real life principles and laws to discuss how the game is supposed to be, may be or may not be played, and what should be allowed and which rules are debatable is not neccessarily valid.

So, like in most games there is a set of rules, or laws if you like, that will be present to make the game playable, enjoyable, balanced, challenging, and so on. These are the boundaries you'll have to accept for your action in this virtual world. A kind of "law of nature" if you like, or a set of commandments (no blasphemy intended) to be followed by all reciding in this world/"reality". If you break the rules, you are exposing yourself to the powers that enforce the laws of the game. In most games, the rules are enforced by an external judge or similar authority. In wow this judge is Blizzard. It's their product (you only pay to use it within the boundaries stipulated by Blzz) and they define what is allowed and what isn't. (Like the club example a few posts ago.) From this kind of perspective I find it strange that some people try to look to external sources to justify or defend their infractions of the game rules when the only rules applying to the game is the game's very own rules. And as in so many other games: If you break the rules repeatedly or severly you're not allowed to play anymore by the judge. You're suspended, banned, disqualified, whatever.