Botting is out of hand

[kevagron]

I've been grinding my mining recently (to feed my wifes new jewelery habit) and the amount of bots I see in the lower level zones is staggering. Recently I've noticed the following (of course not all will be bots but keep seeing the same characters with names like "iydccub" tends to be a big clue). Some were obvious bots, having an afk tag up while killing is a big giveaway and sign of a bad bot programmer.

Normally hunters, but I have seen a few locks and weirdly enough, what looked like 2 paladins.

Badlands, near the elite dragons, is bot city. One evening there were so many bots running around the area was empty and 4 hunter bots were running around trying to find something to kill :rolleyes:

Searing Gorge, elite caves, couple of hunters every time

Searing gorge, above elite caves, 2 paladins!!! acting like bots - maybe grinding rep, not sure, I didn't bother to try and talk to them.

Dustwallow Marsh - 53 lock botting on dragonkin and skinning

Shimmering Flats - hunter again doing trips around the basilisk camp

I also saw a wow movie of a priest on a pvp server killing a tauren warrior bot with mind control, that was funny.

Anyone else think there should be a bot reporting thing in GM help, I don't report every bot (maybe I should) ? Does anyone believe that reporting these abusers makes any difference?

[Herald of Doom]

I always report them. Two of the more famous bots on my server got banned... maybe it was because of my report? You never know ;)

HoD

[rottentomato]

i love grinding the basilisks in shimmering flats...they actually have decent drops and they are easy to kill, but im def not a bot. ive begun to notice an influx of them however. i always love when i get to an area for example STV river going to westfall, and i see a toon running straight into the wall of the river and unable to move up it, then when i message him, it says afk: Gone to moon brb. i always find those bots hilarious....or when i hit up an area where its a consant grind, like gorillas in STV, and i can follow the same circle over and over, target a mob, hit him with a few shots, and then have a bot come up behind me to finish the job as i send my pet off to the next gorilla only to have the same thing happen again over and over. i love when they decide to help me out for an hour long grind session...because they NEVER complain about me killing all the mobs before them

[Dominatrixx]

Sorry for the newbie question, but what are the telltale signs of a bot?

[kevagron]

Sorry for the newbie question, but what are the telltale signs of a bot?

Some indicators

1. Killing with an afk tag up - obvious bot as any keyboard presses remove the afk tag
2. Following a set movement pattern that never varies in an area while killing, you may need to watch them for a bit
3. They don't complain when you hit their mobs before them then allow them to kill the mob for you :grin:
4. Killing in an area on high cash value mobs, often beasts for skinning, when too high level to get xp from the mobs, sometimes this can be regular players, however, regular players will complain if you tag mobs just before they attack them
5. They're a hunter :wink: j/k but 90%+ of bots seem to be hunters.

Anyone have any more bot alert signals?

[Aerath]

Paladins are very very very unlikely to be bots, as are (for some odd reason) those Warlocks. Mind you, it's not impossible, just unlikely.

I still think Warlocks would make awesome dots - Send in the voidwalker, dot, dot, dot, loot - repeat.

99.78% of all bots are hunters (check their pet's name, if it's 'boar' or 'cat', there's another big hint), the remainder are rogues.

There's a couple spots that are very heavily farmed on the way up to the 60s. I could start a list, but don't quite feel like it :p

Some indicators

1. Killing with an afk tag up - obvious bot as any keyboard presses remove the afk tag
2. Following a set movement pattern that never varies in an area while killing, you may need to watch them for a bit
3. They don't complain when you hit their mobs before them then allow them to kill the mob for you :grin:
4. Killing in an area on high cash value mobs, often beasts for skinning, when too high level to get xp from the mobs, sometimes this can be regular players, however, regular players will complain if you tag mobs just before they attack them
5. They're a hunter :wink: j/k but 90%+ of bots seem to be hunters.

Anyone have any more bot alert signals?

The first one is incorrect - you can toggle the 'auto remove afk' option in your interface.

[moopy]

Searing Gorge, elite caves, couple of hunters every time


Same on Bronzebeard, Tauren hunter running in strange, twitchy little zigzags, and always the same attack pattern. After a few minutes, it judders back to Thorium Point and repairs/vends trash.

I tried stalking it, and waiting until it sent the pet in to mobs, and tagging them with Frost Shock. Sure enough, the hunter killed them, and tried to loot. Since my lowbie shammy needed a quest drop from these mobs, I followed it around and had it kill a few until I had the drop. It has been in the same place day and night for quite some time now, but has yet to be removed.

[rottentomato]

now now...i am a hunter, and my pets name is something simple. i nammed it dog (its an owl) but i do agree that seeing the hunters running the same circle over and over again is always suspicious. one more AFK message i thought was kinda funny AFK: Trying to feed my chinese grandchildren. If that wasnt a programmer that was pissed off when he made the bot i dont know what it was. I have seen a couple warlocks, but they arent very common. i have yet to see a pally, but its not impossible. hunters seem to really be the main target for being a bot, and ive been accused of being one a few times when i make my runs around in circles over and over killing things, then ill watch them target what i target three or four times, and try to hit it before me, and it becomes a fun little race to see who can tag it faster. i had one guy trying to follow me for about 10 minutes trying to tag everything i did, so i kept running to an area i knew i wouldnt survive solo, sent the pet in, had him aggro an entire camp i aggro'd another camp, pulled them all to the genius that kept trying to hit everything before me, dismissed pet and feign death, then whispered him to quit following me because it was getting on my nerves as he had his face raped by both camps.

[kevagron]

Paladins are very very very unlikely to be bots, as are (for some odd reason) those Warlocks. Mind you, it's not impossible, just unlikely.

The first one is incorrect - you can toggle the 'auto remove afk' option in your interface.

I agree on paladins, but what I am wondering is if some bot programs have been found on the web and "normal" players are just using them to grab some cash when they go to bed at night - pretty much any high level toon can be used for botting, its just that hunters make the best bots seemingly.

I just did a quick google on bot program +wow and found several links to programs that do this - didn't bother to check them out

Interestingly, Blizz are sueing the owner of one of the bot programs

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=12848

Agreed afk message is not a direct pointer, but taken into account general bot behaviour its a definite guide.

[Aerath]

now now...i am a hunter, and my pets name is something simple. i nammed it dog (its an owl)

You missed the point - those pets aren't named at all and have the default name after taming. Naming an owl "dog" means you did name it. Stop taking everything as a direct assault and read it in context.

[IRID1UM]

another way to identify bots is to look at the movements they make.
bots always turn as if they used the arrow keys. so if they want to turn around (180°) they turn slowly left, left, left, left until they turned into the direction they want to run to. an human player would use the mouse to turn, which results in much faster turning speeds.
also, they run straight lines and send their pets to mobs which are somewhat far away and not always in front of the char. so if you see a hunter sending its pet onto a mob far behind the char, then turns slowly and starts attacking with serpent sting, shoots until mob is dead, waits a split second before moving in (randomly jumping) to the corpse and looting it before taking a sec to detect the next mob and doing the same procedure again, then you can be pretty sure it is a bot.
not responding to tells, ignoring party invites (letting them time out) and countless hours of grinding are more signs. if you suspect someone botting and you do a /who name on the next day and the char is 4 levels higher than on the day before, you found a bot in 98% of all cases.

I always report bots, I can identify them quickly because I've seen so many and I'd advise you to report them aswell.

[frimley]

Some were obvious bots, having an afk tag up while killing is a big giveaway and sign of a bad bot programmer.

*sigh* I hope you aren't reporting people based on this type of ignorant assumption. I know plenty of non-bots that leave afk when they are grinding so they don't have to reply to random /w for gold, grouping etc etc - or just for a bit of peace and quiet.

[moopy]

I know plenty of non-bots that leave afk when they are grinding so they don't have to reply to random /w for gold, grouping etc etc - or just for a bit of peace and quiet.

This, sadly, is true. People simply don't respect DND tags and will spam you with whispers, group invites, duel requests and anything else they can come up with when they forget to take their ADHD pills.

Hell, even AFK doesn't always cut it, and I end up with a rolling ignore list of people who won't leave me along when I am busy. The funniest thing is when you really are AFK, and the scrollback contains a load of whispers from a total stranger demanding that you go to an instance, and then calling you a "noob" and several less printable names for not replying within forteen picosenconds. You'd think that an AFK message like "getting a cup of tea, back in a few" was fairly easy to understand.

I guess if you're not there when it happens, and when you see it, it's not only over but you have a cup of tea, it's not so bad. Just another ignore list entry for a few days.

[JaedxRapture]

If you see somebody you think is a bot, watch their movements first. If they follow a regular, precise pattern around the playing field as they kill on sight, that's one big indicator.

Next you can follow them and steal thier kill. As long as you let them see it, they'll continue to kill it after you tag.

Lastly, offer the bot vast amounts of gold. If you get no response, it's a bot.

[Rotwing]

I'd say you all are wrong about most bots being hunters. First of all, it doesn't agree with my experiences.. I've mostly seen rogues, but that could just be coincidence.

Second your 'bot identification' methods quite accurately describe the natural grind behavior of a player controlled hunter. Due to the way the class is, it is simply faster to find a good spot to grind than it is to level by questing. Preferably one where you can run around in a circle so that mobs respawn by the time you make a full round. Personally I turn of background music in WoW, put on my music and grind away like that when I want to level quickly. Admittedly though, one would either have to be a bot or extremely stupid to continue to kill tagged mobs.

Thirdly, I'm surprised only one person so far (a hunter him/herself) has mentioned the probably most reliable way of identifying a bot. Whispering them with accusations of being a bot.

[Ammon]

When I grind on my hunter mobs of course get demolished but my pattern is pretty much none existant , if its a single target its dead.
however bots that I have witnessed do follow a strict pattern , sometimes Ignoring an obvious single target because its like 1 foot out of the programmed patrol route.
no sane player is going to ignore that target , he's going to mark it & shoot it like the rest of the grind , so watch for that.

[djiss]

Some indicators

1. Killing with an afk tag up - obvious bot as any keyboard presses remove the afk tag
2. Following a set movement pattern that never varies in an area while killing, you may need to watch them for a bit
3. They don't complain when you hit their mobs before them then allow them to kill the mob for you :grin:
4. Killing in an area on high cash value mobs, often beasts for skinning, when too high level to get xp from the mobs, sometimes this can be regular players, however, regular players will complain if you tag mobs just before they attack them

1. As said, there is an option for that.
2. I always use a patern when I grind. I figure the mob postion, try a path, manage to get them respawn when my path is finished so I can do it without having to wait for respawn.
3. I agree unless (read following)
4. I won't care if you tag 1 mob cuz since I'm higher level, I prolly kill them faster and kill more than you can do so even if you managed to "steal" one or two kill from me, you're prolly be to one upset to me, and not me against you since I'm farming in your leveling zone.

check their pet's name, if it's 'boar' or 'cat', there's another big hint
My hunter still have there pet with no personnal name. Since you can name them only once, and didnt found a nice name for them, I don't want to name them and then forced to tame/level another one because I don't like the name anymore. :)
My friend hunter only named his PvP pet, his grinding pet is still named with default name and is lv 64.

another way to identify bots is to look at the movements they make.
bots always turn as if they used the arrow keys. so if they want to turn around (180°) they turn slowly left, left, left, left until they turned into the direction they want to run to. an human player would use the mouse to turn, which results in much faster turning speeds.
also, they run straight lines and send their pets to mobs which are somewhat far away and not always in front of the char. so if you see a hunter sending its pet onto a mob far behind the char, then turns slowly and starts attacking with serpent sting, shoots until mob is dead, waits a split second before moving in (randomly jumping) to the corpse and looting it before taking a sec to detect the next mob and doing the same procedure again, then you can be pretty sure it is a bot.

I'm so pride, I'm not a clicker anymore so now I can farm with one hand while eating. press D til you face a mob, Ctrl+1 to send pet, then 1 for auto-shot. Press W till you reach the mob, ok now I use my other hand to move the mouse on the corpse and right+click it to loot. Then press D till a find a mob, press W to be in range, Ctrl+1, then 1. Or actually with my shammy, press D til a find a mob, press W to be in range, press T to be in combat, mash Ctrl+1 till all my totem are droped, then press 1 for light bolt to pull, 2 for Fire shock, auto-attack + windfury proc to finish it. I don't care about turning speed, I'm grinding while watching a movie. It's not effective as if I was focused on the game, but better than not farm at all.

not responding to tells, ignoring party invites (letting them time out) and countless hours of grinding are more signs. if you suspect someone botting and you do a /who name on the next day and the char is 4 levels higher than on the day before, you found a bot in 98% of all cases.

I'm often in /DND when farming. I always refuse random party invite. Once I needed 6 Living Essence and I farmed them in Un'goro Crater. Took me 3hrs of running around, killing every elemental as fast as I can. A pain.
For the 4lv above than yesterday... once again there is an explanation. The guy is powerleveling his toon. Powerleveling isnt against Blizz rules. Pay someone else or Bot for it, is against the rule. 1 friday month I don't work and the other fridays I only work in the morning. Those friday = exclusive wow time since everyone I know are still at work. I take those day to grind for raid, grind for profession, powerlevel an alt, in short do stuff I do alone. Good chance if you take a look at my toon on thursday, you'll find him 3-4 lvl higher by friday night or saturday.

What I'm telling is yes those fact "can" point out a bot, but there is also a chance it's just a normal player. Only blizz employee can confirm by checking the log. That just to warn people who think they can grief a "presumed bot" without problem. You could be the one who end with a report.

edit : Also about the "they still kill the mob after you tagged it". Yeah something you have no choice. That ****er tag the mob but don't agro it and don't lift a finger to help, so yeah, I'll kill it before it kill me. Do that too often (more than 5 time in row), and you'll get a /report without a single whisper from me. Cuz I have no time to waste with asshat and you'll prolly find funny to see me complain in whisper, so I'll let GM deal with that. So yeah try to test me as a bot for fun :grin:

[PlayThemAll]

another way to identify bots is to look at the movements they make.
bots always turn as if they used the arrow keys. so if they want to turn around (180°) they turn slowly left, left, left, left until they turned into the direction they want to run to. an human player would use the mouse to turn, which results in much faster turning speeds.

This is not that reliable. A lot of players use the keyboard for movement.

[laffncry]

i think that no matter how hard you complain about bots they would still be there until the game fades! every MMO's have bots. it's like a part of it already.

[Oatmealsmurf]

Rotwing,

Most of the indentifications methods are sound. Is it just that you're a hunter and you take offense? It's easy to spot for the most part. And by far most bots are hunters BY FAR!!!. Hunters are the lowest maintenance class and are the least likely to be killed by a mob their level because they can kill things their level by simply /send pet, /auto-shoot. Other classes usually have to use more abilities and their abilities are more situational.

The best way to confirm them as bots is to tag the mob just before they do... if they keep klling it it's a bot. You can also just clear the area they are botting in. When there are no mobs to attack most of them will go to the same exact spot and turn circles until something pops. They also get stuck on terrain all the time when they do move.

[Rotwing]

@Oatmeal

I do have a hunter, but I'm one of those people that play and enjoy very many classes. And as such I don't have any reason to take personal offense or otherwise be biased towards any class in particular for that matter.

I'm not even saying that hunters don't make up the largest part of the bot population... I simply don't have any concrete facts to back such a statement up. However, I can say that my experience with discovering bots has been different (but as I mentioned before that doesn't necessarily mean anything for the big picture).

And most of the identification methods suggested here most definately do describe the natural behavior of a grinding hunter. AFK tag is something many people do to avoid being disturbed. Following a pattern is a smart thing for anyone to do in order to make sure mobs respawn in time and you dont have to spend a lot of time running around looking for a new one. And so on and so forth.

The last part I can say with a great deal of confidence because on more than one occasion, I've had people follow me around, clearly thinking I'm botting... until finally they'd say something along the lines of "hi". And when I reply, they run off without answering. So no, the identification methods are not sound, save for tagging a mob to see how they react or trying to talk to them.

[Justinledwards]

I finally thought of a name for my dragonhawk after reading this thread

"Notabot"

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Some indicators

1. Killing with an afk tag up - obvious bot as any keyboard presses remove the afk tag
2. Following a set movement pattern that never varies in an area while killing, you may need to watch them for a bit
3. They don't complain when you hit their mobs before them then allow them to kill the mob for you :grin:
4. Killing in an area on high cash value mobs, often beasts for skinning, when too high level to get xp from the mobs, sometimes this can be regular players, however, regular players will complain if you tag mobs just before they attack them
5. They're a hunter :wink: j/k but 90%+ of bots seem to be hunters.

Anyone have any more bot alert signals?

Obvious keyboard movements when following a very distinctive pattern. Nor responding at all when you send them a /tell (or responding with nonsensical statements, or claims to not understand what you said -- I remember one on my server which actually would respond in chinese.... a guy in my guild would read it and laugh, because it was "blue toilet yellow cat" or something like that.

Oh, and the best one is -- if you tag a mob, and the character *repeatedly* finishes off the mob for you. One of the old famous bots on my server did that. I think I actually got a level's worth of XP by simply tagging and letting the bot kill the creature for me.

[edandor]

You missed the point - those pets aren't named at all and have the default name after taming. Naming an owl "dog" means you did name it. Stop taking everything as a direct assault and read it in context.

ive played 2 hunters, both to around 30. first one a troll who had a raptor, picked him up at lvl 10, used him all the way to 33. his name? raptor

my second, another troll, i picked up an owl from the NE starting zone, fun times. my owls name? owl

just bc they dont name thier pets doesnt mean that they are bots. me and owl have had some good times, but i just couldnt come up with a good name for him.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

ive played 2 hunters, both to around 30. first one a troll who had a raptor, picked him up at lvl 10, used him all the way to 33. his name? raptor

my second, another troll, i picked up an owl from the NE starting zone, fun times. my owls name? owl

just bc they dont name thier pets doesnt mean that they are bots. me and owl have had some good times, but i just couldnt come up with a good name for him.

You missed the point. It doesn't mean that they *are* bots. Just that they are warning signs. There should be a flag that is raised in a person's mind about that -- one easily put to rest through observation of the individual. None of thee are 100% foolproof bot-detection methods -- and singled out, they could easily be something else. When these all stack up, however -- odds are, you are dealing with a bot.

Personally, I play 2 hunters. I play them, because I've loved the class since it was first announced way back in the day. I still love the class -- one hunter's an Orc, the other's a Dwarf. My Orc had a pet bear which I *intentionally* named "Bar". You'd be *amazed* how many people assumed that it really was "Bear", and would ask me why I didn't name it. My Dwarf had a cat that for the long time, I just left as "Cat". Eventually, like three or four months down the road, I renamed it "Goldie", to only ditch it and get a boar. It took me a while to finally settle on a name of "Nybbles" for it. So I understand that there are legitimate players who don't rename their pets. But if someone runs around and does these other things that were listed, plus doesn't have their pet renamed, it becomes one of those "things that make you go hmmm..."

[cyradis2003]

Embarassing but I have pretended to be a bot before when people were bugging me to do quests or give them money.

[ferofax]

...hmm. interesting bit. i kinda never liked bots anyways, i take pride in making that grind myself (not to mention taking the drops myself). :P

[speciMaN]

I ran into a bot troll last night in Alterac Mts. At first I thought it was a player so I ganked him...but when he came back he had no interest in attacking, nor did he run way. Obviously a bot. I left him alone, and I wouldn't report a bot if I saw one. I don't really have a problem with bots at all, and I fail to see the big deal everyone loves to make about them.

Are they "cheating"? Cheating implies they change the rules of the game itself for an unfair advantage. Something like a speedhack would be cheating. Botting does not usually change rules of the game, and having the bot play in place of a human player doesn't qualify as cheating in my book.

Are they somehow ruining the game for others? I don't think so. They usually try to avoid other players. They are not using bots to harass or otherwise impede the gaming experience of other players.

Now I personally wouldn't use a bot, because they're really only good for farming and I have effective techniques of making money that serve me well...but if someone else wants to, more power to them. I say let people play the game how they want to, as long as they're not cheating by hacking the game itself.

[Justinledwards]

1, yes they are cheating
2, yes they ruin the game (by supporting the gold selling industry)
3, yes they kill my quest mobs and detract from the experience, and they certainly harass and impede a lot of peoples gaming experience
4, they are not 'playing' the game if they are botting...

[ferofax]

...hmm, interesting fact. i somehow see the point that speciMAN is making, i dont really see botting as "cheating". however, i do sometimes find it annoying, when you're trying to farm and then a bot shares the spot with you (but then again, everyone else would probly find it annoying whether that's a bot or not).

as for ruining the game, how so? even if there were a ton of gold sellers out there it wouldnt matter diddlysquat if you didnt like them or not. some people will and some people wont. to each his own.

and uh, kill your quest mobs? hmm... i find that a very possessive term, almost all-encompassing. is that like, you see a mob, and you say "that mob's mine"?

as to playing, i'd have to agree with Justin. however, as ive said, to each his own. some people like (or have no choice whatsoever) to do it the long, hard, sometimes redundant, way of grinding to get that next ding. some people (who obviously have the means), like to take a shortcut. however, its their loss, if they wanna miss out on a lot of stuff that normal players go through on their way to lvl70.

now dont get defensive, im just trying to be impartial here. well, at least i tried to be impartial, lol. =)

[Justinledwards]

Sure, you are going for the balanced view, IMHO there isn't one...

1. gold sellers ruin the game. It makes it about something other than the game (e.g who has the most gold, or the most money IRL to buy the most gold). The arguments are exactly the same as performance enhancing drugs in athletics, really... it's about a level playing field. Gold sellers affect the fairness and balanceof the game.

Thought exercise - describe the game to me if this was allowed. Don't just say let it go, play your own game... you can't! its' a Massively Multiplayer online game! ...So tell me how would it be if you could buy as much gold as you liked.

2. If it's me and a botter - then you betcha they are killing MY quest mobs. If it's you and me - then fair's fair and on a PvP I'd gank ya :-)

3. Botting is NOT playing... and a lot of botting is for gold farming.

If the botting is for powerleveling that is even worse.... these people affect my time in the house because they never went through any of the experiences designed to teach you how to play your class (gnomer, SM, mara, ulda, etc etc)

...and I have played with people who have botted or purchased their characters at 60 - I don't like running through gnomer telling a 60 mage that Frost Nova would be a good idea at this point... (yes seriously!).. I'm a level 38 hunter saying, hey don't you have an AoE button? I didn't even know what frost nova was back then...

:-)

[ferofax]

Sure, you are going for the balanced view, IMHO there isn't one...

1. gold sellers ruin the game. It makes it about something other than the game (e.g who has the most gold, or the most money IRL to buy the most gold). The arguments are exactly the same as performance enhancing drugs in athletics, really... it's about a level playing field. Gold sellers affect the fairness and balanceof the game.

Thought exercise - describe the game to me if this was allowed. Don't just say let it go, play your own game... you can't! its' a Massively Multiplayer online game! ...So tell me how would it be if you could buy as much gold as you liked.

2. If it's me and a botter - then you betcha they are killing MY quest mobs. If it's you and me - then fair's fair and on a PvP I'd gank ya :-)

3. Botting is NOT playing... and a lot of botting is for gold farming.

If the botting is for powerleveling that is even worse.... these people affect my time in the house because they never went through any of the experiences designed to teach you how to play your class (gnomer, SM, mara, ulda, etc etc)

...and I have played with people who have botted or purchased their characters at 60 - I don't like running through gnomer telling a 60 mage that Frost Nova would be a good idea at this point... (yes seriously!).. I'm a level 38 hunter saying, hey don't you have an AoE button? I didn't even know what frost nova was back then...

:-)

...ah, a strong debater! now this forum's starting to become fun... lol. ok, lets begin.

1. how many MMORPGs do you know? do you know any that are not free2play? do you know of any that possibly sells game cards for play time, or even for in-game points and such? these are PRIVILEGES. it just so happens that the company supports them, and Blizzard does not. but just because Blizzard decided not to "cash in" on the paying customers as the other companies did doesnt mean that the market isnt there. they are still privileges, availed by those who can afford them, whether the source is the company itself or some other company. and with that huge population, i wont be surprised why gold sellers are so common... its a huge market!

besides, its not like you can buy the best gear here, they still need to get it themselves. having more gold just makes life easier, lessens the redundancy, and lets players focus on the "have fun" stuff... :wink:

2. lol, why bother? my rogue's a baby, just started playing last week. lol.

3. as ive said, its their loss if they decide to skip out on all that. it's them that'll look like a noob, not you. again, to each his own.

people are so~ cavalier these days. :grin:

[satarina]

the thing is, botting is against the rules. isn't breaking the rules in any game cheating?
it does sadden me, as a hunter, that the vast majority of bots on my server are also hunters. in fact, at any given time, head to un'goro or to burning steppes and you'll find several. they all have pets that they haven't named, they never respond when you /w them, and they move in the same patterns over and over. it's true that those things aren't absolute proof, but when i report the lot of them, the GM's can determine if they're players or bots. if they're players, no harm done.

and bots do affect the game for legit players. the elementals in un'goro are the best place to get living essence, and i've spent hours down there trying to farm elementals in between 3 bots doing the same thing. so 3 people ignoring the rules for their own benefit were screwing me out of mats i needed for an enchant. that's the main reason i report them... well, and the fact that like another poster said, most botting is for gold farming, and buying/selling gold is one of the stupidest things i've come across in this game.

[Justinledwards]

..ah, a strong debater! now this forum's starting to become fun...

...

Sure, you are going for the balanced view, IMHO there isn't one...

:-)

No debate here.

What Satarina said ^^

But, to answer your main response, which is a little off-topic - we are talking about WoW here - I know of lots of MMOs, but I play / have played precisely one, guess, which I enjoy a lot and strongly desire my experience not to be affected by people that are not out to enjoy or experience the game, but out to rort and cheat.

Maybe that is why I like WoW - I've paid my fee, I know what I am getting. And I know I don't have to spend any more to experience all that the game has to offer.

Please point out to me (including URL) what privileges you are entitled too that are different from mine for our equal commitment in $$$ spent on our monthly subscription

You gain an unfair advantage (hardly 'privilege') over other players by botting or power leveling, the same as steroid users do in bodybuilding.

And if Blizzard were to open up some pay-for-service (such as a $25 nether drake) who's to say I myself wouldn't be a part of that market? Maybe a lot of folks who are against botting would be as well!!!! A $25 netherdrake sure would be tempting... however, it wouldn't feel right to me... I haven't earnt it, really, the long, hard quest chain sounds a lot more fun and a lot more entertaining than entering my credit card details again...

And if 'goldz' is a problem ingame - have a look at rgirty's thread and some of my and Kcma's feedback... it's really, really simple. I've made nearly 1000g in the last week.

Ahhhh, entertainment, lest we forget.

[ferofax]

...fair enough. =)

ah, i did get a bit off topic, but i was on a roll, trying to make my point. which was a hard point to make (i'd probly suck as a defense attorney). anyways, obviously im quite opinionated (which gets me in trouble from time to time).

about those privileges, im referring to other MMORPGs that have their own ingame shops that sells exclusive stuff for RL money. now, as to why some games have em, some games dont, ultimately depends on how the company stands about such matters. which is understandably biased, in an odd sort of way, since people who pay more get nifty stuff, while those who can only pay so much have to get stuff the hard way.

...true, entertainment. truth be told i dont give a rats ass as to what others do, me i just play to have fun. if theyre having fun doing stuff like that, so be it then.

[speciMaN]

Sure, you are going for the balanced view, IMHO there isn't one...

1. gold sellers ruin the game. It makes it about something other than the game (e.g who has the most gold, or the most money IRL to buy the most gold). The arguments are exactly the same as performance enhancing drugs in athletics, really... it's about a level playing field. Gold sellers affect the fairness and balanceof the game.

There will always be players with more money than you, and there will always be players with less. People who buy gold from places like IGE do not ruin the game at all. What do you think they do with the money they buy? THey spend it! That means someone makes money from them...in my view, they are contributing to the game if anything, keeping the economy flowing.

Maybe you don't like the fact that some people have better things than you, but that's just the way it is in the game and in life. Fairness and equality for all, right? You do know what you're preaching there - communism. We all know how well that works. :D


Thought exercise - describe the game to me if this was allowed. Don't just say let it go, play your own game... you can't! its' a Massively Multiplayer online game! ...So tell me how would it be if you could buy as much gold as you liked.

You can obtain as much gold as you want, either by investing time or real-world money. The in-game currency has no physical backing.


2. If it's me and a botter - then you betcha they are killing MY quest mobs. If it's you and me - then fair's fair and on a PvP I'd gank ya :-)


The mobs respawn, and the bot can only deal with one at a time. You're not making much of a case here, and besides if they were real players or bots what difference would it make? Personal dislike of a situation does not make it "wrong" or "unfair" - you just don't like it, and that is the extent of it.


3. Botting is NOT playing... and a lot of botting is for gold farming.


So what? Botting is not harming anyone, or cheating in the true sense of the word.

If the botting is for powerleveling that is even worse.... these people affect my time in the house because they never went through any of the experiences designed to teach you how to play your class (gnomer, SM, mara, ulda, etc etc)


Is anyone forcing you to play the game? It's purely up to you. The only person wasting your time is you, if that's how you want to view it.

I already explained that cheating involves CHANGING the game to your advantage. Breaking rules by using a bot does not CHANGE anything in the game, as the bot is still subject to all of the rules that a regular player is.

The arguments presented against botting and gold farming are generally rooted in the mentality of, "I don't like it, so it is cheating and unfair." There is no substance to that argument, as it is based on opinion.

The botter I ran into a few nights ago did not have any adverse affect on my gaming experience. If there were 3, I wouldn't care...fact is, botting and gold farming are not problems in any real way, they're just alternatives for playing the game.

[satarina]

regardless of what any of us think of botting (or gold farming for selling), the fact is that it is against the rules. so it should not be done. whether it adds to or takes away from the game doesn't really matter, i guess... it's still a no-no as far as blizz is concerned. if the only way for someone to enjoy a game is to break the rules that they are aware of and have to agree to, whether by botting or buying gold or whatever, then perhaps they should play a different game. it would at least give us one less thing to argue about. :grin:

[speciMaN]

...
You gain an unfair advantage (hardly 'privilege') over other players by botting or power leveling, the same as steroid users do in bodybuilding.

Steroids force the body to generate muscle tissue at an above-natural rate, i.e. it changes your physiology. In the context of gaming, it would be like using a hack. Botting and power leveling do not circumvent any limitations of the game.

You are so obsessed with fairness - well that contradicts the whole level system. Wouldn't all characters start and stay on level 1 to be fair? And shouldn't all characters have the same abilities and weakness, to be fair?

What about players who have MORE TIME to play the game, and therefore can reach higher levels faster than people who have jobs, kids...you know, a life? Is it fair to them that they have to play in the same game space with people who can devote 3-5 hours a day when they can maybe devote 2 hours per week??

You're whole notion of fairness is basically irrelevant. Fairness is the lazy persons battle cry, and it certainly has no place in this type of game or in real life.

[ferofax]

regardless of what any of us think of botting (or gold farming for selling), the fact is that it is against the rules. so it should not be done. whether it adds to or takes away from the game doesn't really matter, i guess... it's still a no-no as far as blizz is concerned. if the only way for someone to enjoy a game is to break the rules that they are aware of and have to agree to, whether by botting or buying gold or whatever, then perhaps they should play a different game. it would at least give us one less thing to argue about. :grin:

...who said anything about enjoying botting? besides, in any game (heck, in anything) there will always be those who break or bend the rules. Hacking breaks it, Botting bends it, right or wrong it doesnt really matter. what it boils down to is some people dont like it, and some people just couldnt care less.

[Rotwing]

If people want to pay for a WoW account so that they can pay for (or otherwise get) an application so that it can play the game.. well to each his own I suppose.

I don't care about them leveling without effort.. has nothing to do with me. I dont care about them killing mobs, they'll respawn. I don't care about it being against the rules, we all break and bend plenty of rules, be it in WoW or elsewhere (be honest, how many of you haven't at least on occasion used some form of P2P?). I still report them when I'm not too busy doing something just out of principle... and for wasting server bandwidth/resources with their own stupidity.

The only bots I do actually care about and will report on sight every time are PvP bots. Because they actually do affect me and everyone else trying to win the match quite substantially. It's no longer a "victimless crime" like pve botting. It's actively leeching off of the efforts of others.

But those are just my views on the matter. Everyone draws their own lines.

[rottentomato]

i say blizz exploits bots in the game, and takes all the resources and gold they aquire using the bot and mail it out to every member in each realm evenly, even if only a few gold or so to help "stabilize the economy" then id be all for the gold buyers and bots out there as they are in fact helping my game by letting me aquire better items. now i also understand the adverse effects of this, like less items being avail. in the AH to purchase due to the sudden influx of money. also eventually the value of money would change, as the market would be flooded with money, and items would essentially go up drastically in price. but i think it would be fun to see a spike every now and then with gold between all members of a realm just for SaG. i personally dont care if people play with bots, as they dont affect me that much besides giving me free exp when i see one running the same circle grind that i feel like running. on the other hand, i dont play a PvP server, so i havent had the ability to meet one of those PvP bots, but im sure i would love to get the opportunity to gank a few with superior skills and a mind that can think outside the box rather than in the realm of numbers as a machine would. i couldnt agree more that blizz gets the final say in the matter, but there isnt a whole lot we can do besides exploit them, and report them for their behaviour

[moopy]

Interestingly, the better-run bots on PvP servers have enforcers. Kill the bot, and an epicced-out rogue may well ambush you corpse camp you and make sure you died the exact same number of times. You'll get a /no emote and then the rogue will leave. Very odd.

[Krollin]

Botting and power leveling do not circumvent any limitations of the game.

Yes they do and it is precisely that which gives people who use them or use services which use them an unfair advantage.

1- Use of such software or 3rd services is against the EULA. Blizzard are concerned enough to make it clear we are not allowed to do so. By doing so they have placed a limitation on the game: how you are allowed to play.

2- Bots, Hacks and Power Levelling services enable you to do things you would not otherwise be able to do yourself. Teleport hacks, cash farming 24*7, playing 24 hours a day. These are all things which, besides being against the EULA, also circumvent both in game limitations and physical ones. You cannot play 24*7.

Frankly I am disappointed that -anyone- speaks out in favour of such things in a game where they are clearly neither intended to be part of the game experience nor allowed to be in the game at all.

[moopy]

You cannot play 24*7.

You can, but the results are not pretty.

[IRID1UM]

This is not that reliable. A lot of players use the keyboard for movement.

yes, of course many players control their toons that way too, but it looks different when a bot does it. its hard to describe, but I can see a difference to normal human movement.
I guess to train bot-spotting you'd just have to watch a bot for a while and see what he does ;)

[PlayThemAll]

yes, of course many players control their toons that way too, but it looks different when a bot does it. its hard to describe, but I can see a difference to normal human movement.
I guess to train bot-spotting you'd just have to watch a bot for a while and see what he does ;)

Admittedly I've never witnessed a bot, at least not that I was aware of. I assume that the fluidity and subtlty of movement created by human control is lacking in their actions. (i.e. they run, stop and repeatedly hit turn key rather than having these motions flow into one continuous movement.)

I'm going to be keeping my eyes open more to see if I can pick any out.

[djiss]

Those who can't understand why a bot is not fair, it's simple.
The normal player need to sacrifice his time to level his toon.
The botter sacrifice nothing for the same result.
While the normal player grind, the botter to go the dance club and let his bot work for him.
Some could say the botter is just smarter then the normal person then in fact he's just a cheater. The normal player accepted to play in the limitation given by blizzard, the botter prefere broke the rule to get an advantage. Yes, being able to gain level while you don't play WoW at all IS AN ADVANTAGE over those who play their toon.

Same about goldbuyer. They spend money to cheat and get an advantage over the player who gain his money normally. Typing the "gimmegold" code or buy the gold is the same. You get instant money from no where.

Now how the who skip content affect the game? Yeah you can say "but they are the ones who look-like a noob and live with that, not you.". It's not even close of the problem. The problem is you end to party up with people in Shadow Lab who should learn to play in deadmines. Result? you wipe and waste your time. so yeah, it's finally affected my game experience.

Did you ever teamed with a mage who sheep the runner and don't finish them off? And when another runner go, sheep him so the previous sheeped come back in the fight at full health? Yeah it was hilarious the first time we saw it... til you understand nothing died and your healer is almost OOM. :P

[moopy]

I guess to train bot-spotting you'd just have to watch a bot for a while and see what he does ;)

Given that you told people that an AFK tag was a sign of a bot, I am not signing up for your Automaton Identification 101 course :)

[Strongwind]

1- Use of such software or 3rd services is against the EULA. Blizzard are concerned enough to make it clear we are not allowed to do so. By doing so they have placed a limitation on the game: how you are allowed to play.

Then isn't the use of addon's such as Auctioneer and Cosmos a violation of the EULA agreement? Sorry if this is a noob question.

[Aerath]

Nope, those work on strict limitations as set by Blizzard with regard to what can and can't be done.

[Penny]

After playing mmorpg's for the last 6 years or so, I'd have to say that paying for in-game currency, items, or leveling services seems pretty stupid. When all's said and done, you're left with the same thing you started with - pixels on the screen. It's the game that's entertaining and paying someone else to play for you seems stupid.

HOWEVER...

The door doesn't swing both ways. The game developer/owner gets you to pony up RL cash time and time again for things in the game that you can have but others can't unless they pay... want to level to 70? Pay the man. Want the chance to have a flying mount? Pay the man. Want to experience new content? Yuppers, you got it - pay the man. Thing is, that's the "official" way to buy your in-game experience enhancers, guaranteed to satisfy.

Kinda hypocritical of Blizzard, really. It's good business, but it IS hypocritical.

[laffncry]

some people go for those but they have their own reasons too. like a man who loves playing WOW would like to go 70, but he have to keep a day job. so he goes and have their char power leveled. it's their money they're using, not mine!

[speciMaN]

Yes they do and it is precisely that which gives people who use them or use services which use them an unfair advantage.

1- Use of such software or 3rd services is against the EULA. Blizzard are concerned enough to make it clear we are not allowed to do so. By doing so they have placed a limitation on the game: how you are allowed to play.


This rule exists to stifle the gold farming industry. There are plenty of "allowed" addons that give players "unfair" advantages...like the Warrior Button which "stance dances" for you automatically, much faster than a player could do manually.


2- Bots, Hacks and Power Levelling services enable you to do things you would not otherwise be able to do yourself. Teleport hacks, cash farming 24*7, playing 24 hours a day. These are all things which, besides being against the EULA, also circumvent both in game limitations and physical ones. You cannot play 24*7.


Hacks are the only thing I'd consider cheating, because it changes the game. Bots and Power Leveling do not.

Your whole argument about people leveling "too fast" due to botting or services is also irrelevant. When a person starts playing the game, they are already sharing game space with players who have been playing for a long time, and therefore have high level chars. Neither botting or power leveling change the rules of the game as long as no hacks are used.

So if anything, using these tactics to speed up leveling make the game more even, by allowing newcomers to catch up quickly, at which point they can truly enjoy the game.


Frankly I am disappointed that -anyone- speaks out in favour of such things in a game where they are clearly neither intended to be part of the game experience nor allowed to be in the game at all.

I love how so many people who play WoW believe they are a saint who can do no wrong.

[speciMaN]

Those who can't understand why a bot is not fair, it's simple.
The normal player need to sacrifice his time to level his toon.
The botter sacrifice nothing for the same result.
While the normal player grind, the botter to go the dance club and let his bot work for him.
Some could say the botter is just smarter then the normal person then in fact he's just a cheater. The normal player accepted to play in the limitation given by blizzard, the botter prefere broke the rule to get an advantage. Yes, being able to gain level while you don't play WoW at all IS AN ADVANTAGE over those who play their toon.

Seriously, you all need to stop whining about "unfairness" because it's completely hypocritical. If the game was meant to be fair, then all chars would be on the same "level", they'd have the same abilities, same weaknesses, etc.

When someone first starts playing the game, they do not enter a server full of people on the same level. The people who have been playing before them have an "unfair" advantage over the newcomers. Seriously, do you think level 70 vs level 1 is in any way fair?? Well guess what, the level 1 has to play in the same space as a level 70.

As for not spending the time playing the game, yeah buddy, some people have a life and responsibilities. Do you think it is fair to them, that they cannot enjoy a game because the people who have no life and hours to spend playing WoW move ahead faster?

Your crying about unfairness, but in reality it is fairness that you fear. When all the chars are level 70, no longer do you have an advantage so for you the game is not as much fun. It's a lot easier for you to gank a level 20 than it is for you to do the same to a level 70...so spare us the drivel about fairness.


Same about goldbuyer. They spend money to cheat and get an advantage over the player who gain his money normally. Typing the "gimmegold" code or buy the gold is the same. You get instant money from no where.


Yet again, more nonsense. Gold farmers FARM the gold. They make money by selling items on the AH! In fact, they often sell items on the AH at MARKET VALUE. This creates a stable in-game economy. Gold sellers maintain an inventory of gold, which means they lose inventory when they sell gold. They do not have a hack that simply generates gold from thin air, nor do they have a dupe trick like the game Diablo did.


Now how the who skip content affect the game? Yeah you can say "but they are the ones who look-like a noob and live with that, not you.". It's not even close of the problem. The problem is you end to party up with people in Shadow Lab who should learn to play in deadmines. Result? you wipe and waste your time. so yeah, it's finally affected my game experience.


Wrong again...your poor judgment in selecting a party caused you to wipe. There are good and bad players at any level. If you feel that playing the game is wasting your time, then it probably is. Maybe that event just made you realize it.


Did you ever teamed with a mage who sheep the runner and don't finish them off? And when another runner go, sheep him so the previous sheeped come back in the fight at full health? Yeah it was hilarious the first time we saw it... til you understand nothing died and your healer is almost OOM. :P

No, but it seems you have. So tell me which is worse...the mage for not knowing how to play, or you for teaming up with him? :idea:

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

There will always be players with more money than you, and there will always be players with less. People who buy gold from places like IGE do not ruin the game at all. What do you think they do with the money they buy? THey spend it! That means someone makes money from them...in my view, they are contributing to the game if anything, keeping the economy flowing.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. People who buy gold from places like IGE, are ruining the in-game economy. Why? because it places a real-world value on the gold in the game. What happens when there is a real-world value placed on something? Simple -- it means that people can sell it, making a profit off of the in-game item. As such, people will go to any extremes to make more and more real-world money, as life has shown time and again, including the morally and ethically reprehensible, at the very least through cheating/exploiting the game in question, to exploiting cheap labor. This produces an inordinate amount of gold to be made within a server's economy that if there was no real-world value to said gold, would not be reached.

Rapid inflation exists already within games like this, due to the unrealistic means which gold is made. It literally springs out of nowhere -- whenever you kill something, sell an item to a vendor, etc., there is a wellspring of money that gets summoned up from literally out of nothingness. There is only a few things that reduce that amount of money in the market, so the results is that there is an ever increasing supply of gold in the server economy -- that's simply a fact of the nature of the economy. When real-world value is placed on the in-game money, this produces an increase in the amount of gold being acquired, through regular use of the afore-mentioned morally and ethically reprehensible methods -- methods that your typical player would not use. These methods increase the rate of rapid inflation, effectively making the economy become polarized more and more between the "new" players who have hardly anything, and the "existing" players who have kept up with the inflation rate. This effectively harms the in-game economy.

Now, there also is the minor, little, trivial problem of where gold selling & buying are violations of the ToU/EULA, as the seller has no rights to the items within the game (and don't spew the "not selling items, only selling their time" weak justification line to me). Blizzard has acknowledged this repeatedly as being a problem that affects the server economies. Common sense running through the scenario like I did above also tells you that it affects/impacts the server economy negatively. Plus, by buying gold, you are effectively supporting morally and ethically reprehensible acts, like exploitation of a cheap labor force/sweat shops. Now please, tell me again... how exactly is gold buying or gold selling not "bad"?

[speciMaN]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. People who buy gold from places like IGE, are ruining the in-game economy. Why? because it places a real-world value on the gold in the game. What happens when there is a real-world value placed on something? Simple -- it means that people can sell it, making a profit off of the in-game item. As such, people will go to any extremes to make more and more real-world money, as life has shown time and again, including the morally and ethically reprehensible, at the very least through cheating/exploiting the game in question, to exploiting cheap labor. This produces an inordinate amount of gold to be made within a server's economy that if there was no real-world value to said gold, would not be reached.

The exchange rate between game currency and real currency is irrelevant within the context of the game itself. That only matters to those who try to exchange game currency.

You also ignore the fact that the gold that is being sold is farmed. Farmers generally use the AH to sell items they've obtained, and they sell at market price. This is a good thing, since a lot of individual players love to overprice items they sell. Farming is something all players do anyway, show me the difference in paying someone to do it vs doing it yourself? Different means to the same end.

The gold that is sold by farmers is also limited in quantity. When they sell some gold, it is subtracted from their inventory and transfered to the player who purchased it. This player in turn spends the gold on in-game items. The players who sell these items then make money - so far, gold farming is only helping the economy of the game.


Rapid inflation exists already within games like this, due to the unrealistic means which gold is made. It literally springs out of nowhere -- whenever you kill something, sell an item to a vendor, etc., there is a wellspring of money that gets summoned up from literally out of nothingness. There is only a few things that reduce that amount of money in the market, so the results is that there is an ever increasing supply of gold in the server economy -- that's simply a fact of the nature of the economy. When real-world value is placed on the in-game money, this produces an increase in the amount of gold being acquired, through regular use of the afore-mentioned morally and ethically reprehensible methods -- methods that your typical player would not use. These methods increase the rate of rapid inflation, effectively making the economy become polarized more and more between the "new" players who have hardly anything, and the "existing" players who have kept up with the inflation rate. This effectively harms the in-game economy.


You see, value is dictated by supply and demand. If anything, gold farmers INCREASE the supply of items because they sell these to make their gold. That drives prices down for everyone. Most of the people selling items at inflated prices are higher level players trying to rip off noobs by selling stuff like "boar meat" for 50g.


Now, there also is the minor, little, trivial problem of where gold selling & buying are violations of the ToU/EULA, as the seller has no rights to the items within the game (and don't spew the "not selling items, only selling their time" weak justification line to me). Blizzard has acknowledged this repeatedly as being a problem that affects the server economies. Common sense running through the scenario like I did above also tells you that it affects/impacts the server economy negatively. Plus, by buying gold, you are effectively supporting morally and ethically reprehensible acts, like exploitation of a cheap labor force/sweat shops. Now please, tell me again... how exactly is gold buying or gold selling not "bad"?

First of all, you really should stop respouting what you read elsewhere without any real understanding of the situation. You keep saying mentioning ethics and morality (both subjective issues), but you obviously have no idea about life in the places that operate these "sweat shops", nor do you have any understanding of economics.

You see, the people who work in gold farming companies may work long hours, but their compensation is usually 2-3 times that which they would get at a job that is typically available to them at a factory. If anything, gold farming makes their lives easier. Sure, they get paid maybe $100-$150 USD each month, but the effective buying power of that money over is substantial when they've been getting buy on maybe $40 a month prior to their gold farming job.

It's quite ironic that a lot of people in China are ignorant to the rest of the world due to government censorship, yet in the USA, Europe and other first-world countries, people are ignorant because they couldn't care less about anything beyond their little bubble of existence.

[Penny]

speciMaN, the morality is irrelevant. The ability of Blizzard to define the parameters of the game is the only relevant aspect of this issue, and Blizzard has every right to define those parameters any way they wish. Since they've defined the RL buying and selling of the game rewards and accounts as cheating, then they are cheating, pure and simple. There's really no support for your position.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

The exchange rate between game currency and real currency is irrelevant within the context of the game itself. That only matters to those who try to exchange game currency.

You also ignore the fact that the gold that is being sold is farmed. Farmers generally use the AH to sell items they've obtained, and they sell at market price. This is a good thing, since a lot of individual players love to overprice items they sell. Farming is something all players do anyway, show me the difference in paying someone to do it vs doing it yourself? Different means to the same end.

The gold that is sold by farmers is also limited in quantity. When they sell some gold, it is subtracted from their inventory and transfered to the player who purchased it. This player in turn spends the gold on in-game items. The players who sell these items then make money - so far, gold farming is only helping the economy of the game.

You see, value is dictated by supply and demand. If anything, gold farmers INCREASE the supply of items because they sell these to make their gold. That drives prices down for everyone. Most of the people selling items at inflated prices are higher level players trying to rip off noobs by selling stuff like "boar meat" for 50g.

Ignoring your last extraordinarily irrelevant line, you have explained exactly why it is bad. The supply increases. There is a virtually infinite amount of supply for gold, and items in the game. However, there tends to be more gold than items. Simple observation of the economy of a server shows that as the supply of gold increases, the prices of items also increase. There tends to be a disproportionate rate which the prices increase compared to the number of items added to the economy. You are arguing yourself in a circle here -- you are basically telling me that the exact same mechanic I already defined to show how it affects the economy, is what shows it doesn't affect the economy. Not exactly a strong argument on your part.


First of all, you really should stop respouting what you read elsewhere without any real understanding of the situation.

I've only stated what I know, from personal experience and observation to be true. This statement you just said shows you either didn't even bother to read what I wrote, or dismissed it offhand. And then it also shows you don't seem to have much of a case to prove yourself, so in turn, say something moderately inflammatory.

You keep saying mentioning ethics and morality (both subjective issues),

No, they aren't. At least, in the world I live in, the world we all live in, morality and ethics are not subjective. There are subjective interpretations and attempts to "justify" things that aren't ethically or morally right, but that doesn't somehow result in moral relativity.

but you obviously have no idea about life in the places that operate these "sweat shops", nor do you have any understanding of economics.

Again with the ad hominem attacks. I do know what life is like in the places that operate the shops. Here's a hint -- I've been to them. I've seen it first hand. I know exactly how hard things are there. Thus, I know that these "sweat shops" are exploiting cheap labor -- they are effectively using the fact that they offer something better than the rest of the jobs there offer, even though it still is something that wouldn't even pass inspection over in the US or EU.

You see, the people who work in gold farming companies may work long hours, but their compensation is usually 2-3 times that which they would get at a job that is typically available to them at a factory. If anything, gold farming makes their lives easier. Sure, they get paid maybe $100-$150 USD each month, but the effective buying power of that money over is substantial when they've been getting buy on maybe $40 a month prior to their gold farming job.

Ok, so now you feel the need to "educate" me? Good luck.

It's quite ironic that a lot of people in China are ignorant to the rest of the world due to government censorship, yet in the USA, Europe and other first-world countries, people are ignorant because they couldn't care less about anything beyond their little bubble of existence.

Except that you aren't discussing this with someone like that. As I said, I've been to those places, witnessed them. Hell, I have friends who live in those kinds of conditions. So please, get off your high horse before it gets shot.

speciMaN, the morality is irrelevant. The ability of Blizzard to define the parameters of the game is the only relevant aspect of this issue, and Blizzard has every right to define those parameters any way they wish. Since they've defined the RL buying and selling of the game rewards and accounts as cheating, then they are cheating, pure and simple. There's really no support for your position.

When it is all said and done, that is the deciding factor. Blizzard defined what is cheating -- gold selling & buying were defined as such. All I was using the moral and ethical standings was to show why I personally find it disgusting to even think about buying gold.

[speciMaN]

speciMaN, the morality is irrelevant. The ability of Blizzard to define the parameters of the game is the only relevant aspect of this issue, and Blizzard has every right to define those parameters any way they wish. Since they've defined the RL buying and selling of the game rewards and accounts as cheating, then they are cheating, pure and simple. There's really no support for your position.

Blizzard's stance on the matter is just that, their stance. The fact is, there is a huge market for digital goods and currency. Blizzard can "outlaw" it, but that only creates a black market...just like real life.

A rule or law is only as effective as the legislator's ability to enforce it. And Blizzard as a company really should evaluate whether embracing the digital goods industry would improve the game for players, rather than fighting it.

In my view, supporting it would mean they have to be proactive about keeping server economies in check. Simply saying "It's against the rules" is not going to make it go away.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Blizzard's stance on the matter is just that, their stance. The fact is, there is a huge market for digital goods and currency. Blizzard can "outlaw" it, but that only creates a black market...just like real life.

A rule or law is only as effective as the legislator's ability to enforce it. And Blizzard as a company really should evaluate whether embracing the digital goods industry would improve the game for players, rather than fighting it.

In my view, supporting it would mean they have to be proactive about keeping server economies in check. Simply saying "It's against the rules" is not going to make it go away.

Nope, but it does have grounds for them to ban people. It doesn't make it realistically go away, but it dissuades people from doing it if they have an ounce of common sense.

[gmedina]

Ignoring your last extraordinarily irrelevant line, you have explained exactly why it is bad. The supply increases. There is a virtually infinite amount of supply for gold, and items in the game. However, there tends to be more gold than items. Simple observation of the economy of a server shows that as the supply of gold increases, the prices of items also increase. There tends to be a disproportionate rate which the prices increase compared to the number of items added to the economy. You are arguing yourself in a circle here -- you are basically telling me that the exact same mechanic I already defined to show how it affects the economy, is what shows it doesn't affect the economy. Not exactly a strong argument on your part.


If you study economics you will know things are not quite this simple. First some inflation is not a bad thing as more people join the market. In other words if the market only has $100 and 10 ppl playing, and another 5 ppl join, then that $100 has to be split among a larger group of ppl(in this ex 15), ergo the value of the currency has increased because each person by definition must have less. So, first correction is inflation isn't a bad thing, rampant inflation now that is a bad thing.

Second gold buying isn't creating money out of thin air it is transfering from one user to another user. And that user is in turn spending the money on items from another user who will in turn also spend it. So lets bring this to some examples to explain, player A give(sells) player B 150g. Player C knows that prices have risen so he lists item "BuyMe" in the AH for 100g. Player B can now afford this item and buys the item and send Player C 100g. Player C now has 100g that he otherwise wouldn't have had without the gold seller.




No, they aren't. At least, in the world I live in, the world we all live in, morality and ethics are not subjective. There are subjective interpretations and attempts to "justify" things that aren't ethically or morally right, but that doesn't somehow result in moral relativity.


Really, are you sure about that?? Lets try an example, is it moral to kill??? Careful now think about the question prior to answering.

So you said yes killing is wrong. Ok what about if there is a murder in your house about to kill your family and if you don't kill him first your family dies???

So you said no killing is ok. What about if i just walk down the street and kill your parents because the mood moved me???

What does this show Relative morality, want more examples? Morality is most definatly one of the most relative things in this world, it all depends upon your culture, and background.



Again with the ad hominem attacks. I do know what life is like in the places that operate the shops. Here's a hint -- I've been to them. I've seen it first hand. I know exactly how hard things are there. Thus, I know that these "sweat shops" are exploiting cheap labor -- they are effectively using the fact that they offer something better than the rest of the jobs there offer, even though it still is something that wouldn't even pass inspection over in the US or EU.



Ok, so now you feel the need to "educate" me? Good luck.



Except that you aren't discussing this with someone like that. As I said, I've been to those places, witnessed them. Hell, I have friends who live in those kinds of conditions. So please, get off your high horse before it gets shot.

That is nice, but have u been to those places before the sweat shops where there? How much worse was it??



When it is all said and done, that is the deciding factor. Blizzard defined what is cheating -- gold selling & buying were defined as such. All I was using the moral and ethical standings was to show why I personally find it disgusting to even think about buying gold.

So because Blizzard said it is cheating, makes it imoral?? They are what you use as a deciding factor to determine moral issues?

[speciMaN]

Ignoring your last extraordinarily irrelevant line, you have explained exactly why it is bad. The supply increases. There is a virtually infinite amount of supply for gold, and items in the game. However, there tends to be more gold than items. Simple observation of the economy of a server shows that as the supply of gold increases, the prices of items also increase. There tends to be a disproportionate rate which the prices increase compared to the number of items added to the economy. You are arguing yourself in a circle here -- you are basically telling me that the exact same mechanic I already defined to show how it affects the economy, is what shows it doesn't affect the economy. Not exactly a strong argument on your part.

So you are saying that supply and demand is irrelevant? OK. :)

The supply of gold and items on a server is bound to increase by the number of players. This is going to happen one way or the other, you're pointing the finger at gold farmers as the reason but really, it's a flaw of the game itself.

Think about it...Blizzard could limit the amount of a certain type of item, or limit the amount of materials, etc. This would create a REAL value for ingame items. Right now, the ingame item values are entirely arbitrary. It doesn't matter if the items are sold by gold farmers or other players.


I've only stated what I know, from personal experience and observation to be true. This statement you just said shows you either didn't even bother to read what I wrote, or dismissed it offhand. And then it also shows you don't seem to have much of a case to prove yourself, so in turn, say something moderately inflammatory.


Well you haven't changed my mind and IGE is still in business, so I doubt anything you've stated is proving or convincing, is it? :D


No, they aren't. At least, in the world I live in, the world we all live in, morality and ethics are not subjective. There are subjective interpretations and attempts to "justify" things that aren't ethically or morally right, but that doesn't somehow result in moral relativity.


Some people think smoking weed is "wrong". Others don't. Some people think having sex before marriage, or under a certain age is "wrong" - others don't. Ethics and especially morality are very subjective. Let's stay on topic ok?


Again with the ad hominem attacks. I do know what life is like in the places that operate the shops. Here's a hint -- I've been to them. I've seen it first hand. I know exactly how hard things are there. Thus, I know that these "sweat shops" are exploiting cheap labor -- they are effectively using the fact that they offer something better than the rest of the jobs there offer, even though it still is something that wouldn't even pass inspection over in the US or EU.


Yeah dude, China is not the US or EU. Why do you think that another country should adopt the standards of US or EU? That's a very elitist view to have. China's economic boom is based on the exploitation of its mostly third-world inhabitants...Hong Kong is what it is because of peasants who worked for little or nothing. These peasants have very little choices as to what they can do to earn money in a communist nation (where EVERYTHING is fair and equal for everyone, right?).

Most consumer goods are made in china, most electronics, most household goods, etc. If you're so concerned about China's working class standards, and you're so convinced they are abominable, then stop buying pretty much anything. The keyboard you're typing on, the monitor you're viewing...it was either fully made in China, or has a lot of parts from China in it.


Ok, so now you feel the need to "educate" me? Good luck.

Except that you aren't discussing this with someone like that. As I said, I've been to those places, witnessed them. Hell, I have friends who live in those kinds of conditions. So please, get off your high horse before it gets shot.


Yeah, I believe you. And if we were talking about electronics, you'd tell me you're an engineer. If we were talking about legal issues, you'd no doubt be a lawyer. Outer space? You're an astronaut. I get it. Cool! :cloud9:

When it is all said and done, that is the deciding factor. Blizzard defined what is cheating -- gold selling & buying were defined as such. All I was using the moral and ethical standings was to show why I personally find it disgusting to even think about buying gold.

You're citation of morals and ethics did not really help you in making any point, because they're disingenuously presented. If you were really so concerned about the working-class Chinese welfare, you wouldn't have a computer, sneakers, clothes, dishes, a TV, stereo, a car...anything sold by WalMart...what else? :laughing:

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

If you study economics you will know things are not quite this simple. First some inflation is not a bad thing as more people join the market. In other words if the market only has $100 and 10 ppl playing, and another 5 ppl join, then that $100 has to be split among a larger group of ppl(in this ex 15), ergo the value of the currency has increased because each person by definition must have less. So, first correction is inflation isn't a bad thing, rampant inflation now that is a bad thing.

Did I ever say otherwise? I was talking about how gold buying results in rampant inflation.

Second gold buying isn't creating money out of thin air it is transfering from one user to another user. And that user is in turn spending the money on items from another user who will in turn also spend it. So lets bring this to some examples to explain, player A give(sells) player B 150g. Player C knows that prices have risen so he lists item "BuyMe" in the AH for 100g. Player B can now afford this item and buys the item and send Player C 100g. Player C now has 100g that he otherwise wouldn't have had without the gold seller.

Money and items literally come out of thin air in WoW. There is no set limit for them. Gold buying frequently results in the use of botting or otherwise cheating software, or the use of a large number of employees dedicated to getting as much gold/items as possible. This results in an influx that would not have otherwise existed, which in turn, results in rampant inflation.

Really, are you sure about that?? Lets try an example, is it moral to kill??? Careful now think about the question prior to answering.

Trick question, using semantics. Killing is a rather broad category, which includes killing animals for food, murder (or killing another person for personal gain), mortally wounding (or killing an enemy soldier in wartime), execution (or the killing of an individual by a government, typically for breaking a major law), and others. Some are morally reprehensible, others are not.

So you said yes killing is wrong. Ok what about if there is a murder in your house about to kill your family and if you don't kill him first your family dies???

I never said killing was wrong. I said murder is wrong. However, killing the murderer in my house about to kill my family would be ok, as that isn't "murder", it is defending my family. Once again, no moral relativism.

So you said no killing is ok. What about if i just walk down the street and kill your parents because the mood moved me???

I never said killing was "ok". I did say that murder, which is killing another person for personal gain (even if that gain is... because you felt like it) is, in fact, morally wrong. Please, you don't want to even begin a semantics fight here.

What does this show Relative morality, want more examples? Morality is most definatly one of the most relative things in this world, it all depends upon your culture, and background.

It doesn't show moral relativity. It shows how the language has degraded over time to allow for a weak argument like this.

That is nice, but have u been to those places before the sweat shops where there? How much worse was it??

Two wrongs don't make a right. Justifying a sweat shop by saying it made life a little easier doesn't cut it for me. There are other, better ways to achieve those ends. It seems too... Machiavellian to me.

So because Blizzard said it is cheating, makes it imoral?? They are what you use as a deciding factor to determine moral issues?

No. blizzard says it is cheating makes it flat out wrong, against the rules, and worthy of a ban. Everything else which I said about it being immoral and reprehensible are the reasons why I personally can't even think about buying gold. They also are why linking to sites spouting gold selling ads, or owned by gold selling companies are removed on this forum.

So you are saying that supply and demand is irrelevant? OK. :)

Exactly what kind of a "response" is that? I am actually saying that they are very relevant. The thing is, it seems that you want to keep the discussion about the real world value of the gold out of the discussion, you are not wanting to look at the whole scope of the problem. The supply of the gold increases. The supply of items in the game increases. There is a disproportionate amount of gold increasing above and beyond the items -- resulting in inflation within the game's economy. This increases even more when people are doing the farming within the game to make a living in the real world.

The supply of gold and items on a server is bound to increase by the number of players. This is going to happen one way or the other, you're pointing the finger at gold farmers as the reason but really, it's a flaw of the game itself.

And when the supply of gold increases at a disproportionate rate compared to the number of new players and the supply if items? What if that's getting injected by people who are doing it because they are getting *paid* to do it? Getting paid real-world money is an incredible motivator.

Think about it...Blizzard could limit the amount of a certain type of item, or limit the amount of materials, etc. This would create a REAL value for ingame items. Right now, the ingame item values are entirely arbitrary. It doesn't matter if the items are sold by gold farmers or other players.

So, completely ignore the real-world impacts, and how they affect the in-game economies. That's not a strong argument.

Well you haven't changed my mind and IGE is still in business, so I doubt anything you've stated is proving or convincing, is it? :D

I'm not entirely certain what you are trying to accomplish with this statement.

Some people think smoking weed is "wrong". Others don't. Some people think having sex before marriage, or under a certain age is "wrong" - others don't. Ethics and especially morality are very subjective. Let's stay on topic ok?

What people think is right or wrong does not necessarily equal what is right or wrong. People can justify a lot of things to themselves. It doesn't make what they've justified become suddenly right.

Yeah dude, China is not the US or EU. Why do you think that another country should adopt the standards of US or EU?

Straw-manning my position is no way to win an argument.

That's a very elitist view to have. China's economic boom is based on the exploitation of its mostly third-world inhabitants...Hong Kong is what it is because of peasants who worked for little or nothing. These peasants have very little choices as to what they can do to earn money in a communist nation (where EVERYTHING is fair and equal for everyone, right?).

How does that prove that it somehow is right?

Most consumer goods are made in china, most electronics, most household goods, etc. If you're so concerned about China's working class standards, and you're so convinced they are abominable, then stop buying pretty much anything. The keyboard you're typing on, the monitor you're viewing...it was either fully made in China, or has a lot of parts from China in it.

Once again, how does that prove it somehow is right?

Yeah, I believe you. And if we were talking about electronics, you'd tell me you're an engineer. If we were talking about legal issues, you'd no doubt be a lawyer. Outer space? You're an astronaut. I get it. Cool! :cloud9:

Ad hominem again. Seriously, you've made more personal attacks against me like this than solid counter arguments. I'm getting the impression you are just trolling for flames.

You're citation of morals and ethics did not really help you in making any point, because they're disingenuously presented. If you were really so concerned about the working-class Chinese welfare, you wouldn't have a computer, sneakers, clothes, dishes, a TV, stereo, a car...anything sold by WalMart...what else? :laughing:

Another ad hominem. Ok, you're going to talk to Mr. Ignore now. I'm tired of seeing you counter a rational argument with insults.

[gmedina]

First I think i really like debating with you, your point of view is so contray to mine makes me really dig deep. So thanks. Now onto the good stuff.

Did I ever say otherwise? I was talking about how gold buying results in rampant inflation.


Where is the proof of this, how do you know it is the gold buying that is resulting in rampant inflation and not the explosion of new players? This is kinda like trying to blame all the evil in the world on one person.



Money and items literally come out of thin air in WoW. There is no set limit for them. Gold buying frequently results in the use of botting or otherwise cheating software, or the use of a large number of employees dedicated to getting as much gold/items as possible. This results in an influx that would not have otherwise existed, which in turn, results in rampant inflation.



Trick question, using semantics. Killing is a rather broad category, which includes killing animals for food, murder (or killing another person for personal gain), mortally wounding (or killing an enemy soldier in wartime), execution (or the killing of an individual by a government, typically for breaking a major law), and others. Some are morally reprehensible, others are not.



I never said killing was wrong. I said murder is wrong. However, killing the murderer in my house about to kill my family would be ok, as that isn't "murder", it is defending my family. Once again, no moral relativism.



I never said killing was "ok". I did say that murder, which is killing another person for personal gain (even if that gain is... because you felt like it) is, in fact, morally wrong. Please, you don't want to even begin a semantics fight here.



I know you never said it was right or wrong, was just an example to show that which ever way you answer can be right or wrong depending upon the situation. And that show relativity.


It doesn't show moral relativity. It shows how the language has degraded over time to allow for a weak argument like this.

Very easy to blame language for inability to defend postion. Morals are the most relative thing in the world. Is polygamy moral? depends upon where you live and your religion. Is fornication moral? Is abortion moral? Is prostitution, pornagraphy, nudity are any of these moral? Depends on where your from and how you were raised. There is nothing more subjective and relative than morality as to all the above questions there is no right answer.




Two wrongs don't make a right. Justifying a sweat shop by saying it made life a little easier doesn't cut it for me. There are other, better ways to achieve those ends. It seems too... Machiavellian to me.

True but ppl who talk about the horrors of sweat shops seem to always forget that if they were closed down things would be worse. Granted there are other ways to do things but you gotta start somewhere. Otherwise you end up hymming and haughing and never doing anything for fear of not getting in perfect the first time.


No. blizzard says it is cheating makes it flat out wrong, against the rules, and worthy of a ban. Everything else which I said about it being immoral and reprehensible are the reasons why I personally can't even think about buying gold. They also are why linking to sites spouting gold selling ads, or owned by gold selling companies are removed on this forum.

"Worthy of a ban", the word worthy implies your judgment of the situation, and again that is very subjective.

[PlayThemAll]

Blizzard's stance on the matter is just that, their stance. The fact is, there is a huge market for digital goods and currency. Blizzard can "outlaw" it, but that only creates a black market...just like real life.

A rule or law is only as effective as the legislator's ability to enforce it. And Blizzard as a company really should evaluate whether embracing the digital goods industry would improve the game for players, rather than fighting it.

In my view, supporting it would mean they have to be proactive about keeping server economies in check. Simply saying "It's against the rules" is not going to make it go away.

Fact: Blizzards stance is the rule of play. Its their game and thay make the rules. This is very clear in the user agreements.

Fact: Whatever you believe is overruled by blizzards stance. (See fact #1)

Fact: The black market of goods and services is probably not going to go away. This does not make it right or acceptable, regardless of its enforcability. (See fact #1)

Fact: This is a game, it's not real life (See fact #1)

People can argue until they are blue in the face (no pun intended) and rationalize all day whether or not it's fair, affects the in-game economy, etc.. What we believe personally became irrelevent as soon as we accepted the TOU and EULA agreement upon enterring the game. At that point we give up our rules and must abide by their rules or face ban.

[gmedina]

Fact: Blizzards stance is the rule of play. Its their game and thay make the rules. This is very clear in the user agreements.

Fact: Whatever you believe is overruled by blizzards stance. (See fact #1)

Fact: The black market of goods and services is probably not going to go away. This does not make it right or acceptable, regardless of its enforcability. (See fact #1)

Fact: This is a game, it's not real life (See fact #1)

People can argue until they are blue in the face (no pun intended) and rationalize all day whether or not it's fair, affects the in-game economy, etc.. What we believe personally became irrelevent as soon as we accepted the TOU and EULA agreement upon enterring the game. At that point we give up our rules and must abide by their rules or face ban.


True but firstly we were disscussing not wether gold selling will get you banned but weher it causes inflation. Secondly we were discussing wether morality is relative or not. Thirdly your way is so, umm boring, i wanna discuss and learn other points of view and ways of thinkging, how can i do that if you simply say "look at rule #1"

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Fact: Blizzards stance is the rule of play. Its their game and thay make the rules. This is very clear in the user agreements.

Fact: Whatever you believe is overruled by blizzards stance. (See fact #1)

Fact: The black market of goods and services is probably not going to go away. This does not make it right or acceptable, regardless of its enforcability. (See fact #1)

Fact: This is a game, it's not real life (See fact #1)

People can argue until they are blue in the face (no pun intended) and rationalize all day whether or not it's fair, affects the in-game economy, etc.. What we believe personally became irrelevent as soon as we accepted the TOU and EULA agreement upon enterring the game. At that point we give up our rules and must abide by their rules or face ban.

Once again, my argument summed up very nicely.

True but firstly we were disscussing not wether gold selling will get you banned but weher it causes inflation. Secondly we were discussing wether morality is relative or not. Thirdly your way is so, umm boring, i wanna discuss and learn other points of view and ways of thinkging, how can i do that if you simply say "look at rule #1"

Actually, not really. playthemall was summing up my argument once again. Blizzard has every right to ban people for this, it is a violation of the license agreement that every player must accept to play the game. In the end, Blizzard's the deciding factor.

The side topic about morality was a derail of the thread. As I said before, the whole discussion about morality was showing why I personally am revolted by the idea of buying gold. It also tends to be several of the points which is why gold selling ads, linking to sites which have gold selling ads, or sites owned by gold selling companies are quickly snuffed out on this forum.

[speciMaN]

Did I ever say otherwise? I was talking about how gold buying results in rampant inflation.

Money and items literally come out of thin air in WoW. There is no set limit for them. Gold buying frequently results in the use of botting or otherwise cheating software, or the use of a large number of employees dedicated to getting as much gold/items as possible. This results in an influx that would not have otherwise existed, which in turn, results in rampant inflation.

Farmers trade, they do not conjure. You're first sentence pretty much explains the only flaw - the money in the game has no physical backing. I see no compelling reasoning or evidence that suggest gold farmers contribute to "rampant" inflation...even if it were the case, a large portion of players would need to be purchasing gold from farmers for your effect to manifest.


Trick question, using semantics. Killing is a rather broad category, which includes killing animals for food, murder (or killing another person for personal gain), mortally wounding (or killing an enemy soldier in wartime), execution (or the killing of an individual by a government, typically for breaking a major law), and others. Some are morally reprehensible, others are not.


Some people are quite comfortable with murder. Once again you're implying that everyone should share your perspective as the basis for determining right and wrong.


I never said killing was "ok". I did say that murder, which is killing another person for personal gain (even if that gain is... because you felt like it) is, in fact, morally wrong. Please, you don't want to even begin a semantics fight here.


Are you the moral authority now? Wow, interesting. Add that to your list of credentials.


It doesn't show moral relativity. It shows how the language has degraded over time to allow for a weak argument like this.


So any argument you have no real response to is "weak"? Uhuh.


Two wrongs don't make a right. Justifying a sweat shop by saying it made life a little easier doesn't cut it for me. There are other, better ways to achieve those ends. It seems too... Machiavellian to me.


Yeah, what are you doing to fix the problems of the world? Pretending to be smart on WoW forums isn't making the problems in China that you are so concerned about go away. In fact, Gold Farming is an improvement to their situation.

Seriously, go to China and initiate some kind of political reform. Spur some life into the humam rights movement...those are the "better ways"...but most people would much rather farm gold for $120 a month.

I can tell you are a liberal - quick to point out problems, yet never able to produce a practical solution.


No. blizzard says it is cheating makes it flat out wrong, against the rules, and worthy of a ban. Everything else which I said about it being immoral and reprehensible are the reasons why I personally can't even think about buying gold. They also are why linking to sites spouting gold selling ads, or owned by gold selling companies are removed on this forum.


Blizzard determines right and wrong for you? Or are you mixing "legality" with "righteousness"? Seems to me, you are doing the latter. Breaking laws and rules is not wrong, it is illegal. Illegal does not mean wrong, it just means illegal.

This site is free to allow or disallow any ads they see fit, but that doesn't make the ads they disallow "wrong". I assume they would disallow ads for porn on here, does that mean porn is wrong?


Exactly what kind of a "response" is that? I am actually saying that they are very relevant. The thing is, it seems that you want to keep the discussion about the real world value of the gold out of the discussion, you are not wanting to look at the whole scope of the problem. The supply of the gold increases. The supply of items in the game increases. There is a disproportionate amount of gold increasing above and beyond the items -- resulting in inflation within the game's economy. This increases even more when people are doing the farming within the game to make a living in the real world.


Quick fact check:
- The supply of gold and items in the game IS ALREADY UNLIMITED. This is how the game is programmed, it has nothing to do with gold farmers.

- More players on the server = more demand = more expensive items. It's very simple math, and you'll notice that nowhere do gold farmers enter into that equation.


And when the supply of gold increases at a disproportionate rate compared to the number of new players and the supply if items? What if that's getting injected by people who are doing it because they are getting *paid* to do it? Getting paid real-world money is an incredible motivator.


Disproportionate rate - what is that rate? Tell me.

The gold farmers SELL because there is a DEMAND for their products. Nobody is going to shell out $50 for 150 gold just to spend $50. The player who buys that gold intends to use it in the game. Either way, if that player wanted to spend 150 gold, what difference does it make if he got it instantly from a gold farmer or over a week by earning it himself.

Similarly, what about people who mainly buy from the AH instead of farming for items themselves. These people INCREASE DEMAND for items, and that causes prices to go up. A lot people prefer to get their reagents from the AH due to the time-consuming nature of doing mining runs, etc. By your logic, these people should be banned for "cheating" by getting 20 bars of silver instantly instead of mining for it.

Now, enter the gold farmers who's primary source of gold is selling reagents. They actually keep the market price in check! In other words, they STABILIZE the game economy. For your scenario to be relevant, over 60% of the players on a given server would have to be purchasing from gold farmers - even then, it would have a limited effect on the economy.


So, completely ignore the real-world impacts, and how they affect the in-game economies. That's not a strong argument.


This doesn't really make any sense...not to mention, nothing you presented as your argument is very strong beyond your own personal views.


What people think is right or wrong does not necessarily equal what is right or wrong. People can justify a lot of things to themselves. It doesn't make what they've justified become suddenly right.


Dictating the guidelines for right and wrong, are we? :)


Straw-manning my position is no way to win an argument.


Your position was DOA. The basis for your argument is your concern for Chinese workers...yet you are most likely benefiting from their exploitation in many ways by purchasing "made in china" products.


How does that prove that it somehow is right?

Once again, how does that prove it somehow is right?


Why are you so concerned with "right" and "wrong? You can't use something so subjective as the basis for any position. Obviously, you really have nothing solid to go on.


Ad hominem again. Seriously, you've made more personal attacks against me like this than solid counter arguments. I'm getting the impression you are just trolling for flames.


It's funny when students try to debate. They sound like a textbook, and it's always obvious they have little understanding of what they're talking about.


Another ad hominem. Ok, you're going to talk to Mr. Ignore now. I'm tired of seeing you counter a rational argument with insults.

Rational argument indeed. Based in your personal opinions of right and wrong, which are not even relevant to this topic? Yes, you should ignore me because obviously you got nothing.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

This message is hidden because speciMaN is on your ignore list.

Seriously, maybe after a while, I might bother to see if you are worth paying attention to again. But right now, your arguments are nothing but direct or indirect, veiled or not rather than a discussion. As I mentioned before -- the whole discussion about moral right or wrong was based on why I personally detest even thinking about buying gold, much less actually doing it. But apparently that isn't important right now. It seems more important to you to feel you've "won". So congratulations. Go tell the world about your "victory".

In the end, the whole issue about botting is simple. Blizzard outlaws it, and will ban people for doing it. It is pretty cut and dry. Does it stop people from doing it and profiting from it? Not at all. It just means that once Blizzard finds out, it will be stopped. And people will continue to profit from it as long as there are people willing to pay real-world money for in-game gold. Once again, Blizzard finds out -- and the accounts get banned. Plain and simple.

[PlayThemAll]

True but firstly we were disscussing not wether gold selling will get you banned but weher it causes inflation. Secondly we were discussing wether morality is relative or not. Thirdly your way is so, umm boring, i wanna discuss and learn other points of view and ways of thinkging, how can i do that if you simply say "look at rule #1"

Within the game Blizzard defines what is right and wrong, moral or immoral, etc. My personal, possibly boring, opinion, and an endless circular debate on the topic is kind of irrelevent in light of that fact.

If Blizzard does not believe that gold selling and Professional Power Leveling would ruin the game, I believe they would be offereing these services themselves. Why would they miss out on such cash cow? The fact that they don't tells me that their course of action is probably the best for the preservation of the game.

For me this debate has run its course.

:closed:

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

For me this debate has run its course.

:closed:

Agreed .

[djiss]

So because Blizzard said it is cheating, makes it imoral?? They are what you use as a deciding factor to determine moral issues?

:ponder:
How is hard to understand? Blizzard own their server, Blizzard decide want you can do on THEIR server.
Their is no morality or ethic involved in that.
We don't discuss humanity right, It's a freak private buisness managing their private network.

Decide whatever you want to do at your home but when you are at MY home, I don't care if you think cigarette is good or not for health. If I say you don't smoke at my house, then YOU DON'T SMOKE AT MY HOUSE!

Police don't care if you think iyou should be allowed to drive a 100 mph because in another country allow people to drive at that speed or becaue you think your car is better than other and can hold better on the road. If there is a panel saying 60mph MAX then you drive at 60MPH MAX!

Blizzard decided you can't bot in WoW so you don't bot in WoW. POINT
You don't like it, no one twist your fk'ing arm to play WoW.
it's just freaking common sense!

[speciMaN]

:ponder:
How is hard to understand? Blizzard own their server, Blizzard decide want you can do on THEIR server.
Their is no morality or ethic involved in that.


That is true for the most part.


Decide whatever you want to do at your home but when you are at MY home, I don't care if you think cigarette is good or not for health. If I say you don't smoke at my house, then YOU DON'T SMOKE AT MY HOUSE!




Police don't care if you think it's you should be able to drive a 100 mph because it's another country allow people to drive at that speed or becaue you think your car is better than other and can hold better on the road. If there is a panel saying 60mph MAX then you drive at 60MPH MAX!


Police are not there to decide your fate, that happens in court. If you get a speeding ticket, you can always fight it, and many times win the case.

Also, some speed limits are unreasonably low, or there is too much of a change in limits in too short of a distance - like going from 55 to 25 in less than 100 feet of road. In these cases, enforcement of the limit becomes very controversial.

The point I'm making is, the validity of any rule can always be challenged. Rules and laws are not absolute, at least not in the USA.


Blizzard decided you can't bot in WoW so you don't bot in WoW. POINT
You don't like it, no one twist your fk'ing arm to play WoW.

Yeah but people will continue botting as long as the game exists. :)

[Justinledwards]

Well... Speciman and gmedina did a good job of taking this off-track by generalisations and relating to real-world situations that are not relevant. As other's have said, this is not a moral, political or religious issue... it's about cheating in WoW by breaking the ToU /EULA, be it by breaking the rules by any method (I can't believe you tried to define cheating as a hack but not buying gold!!!! made me smile)

1. Gold is created out of thin air. Create a character, bot it, gold is CREATED, therefore increased gold supply for fewer 'real' players. I can't see how we are arguing about inflation with that simple fact.

2. See 1. That is the problem.

3. As for myself, I don't particularly care about fairness. I care about others having an unfair advantage over me. See the difference? I'm just as selfish as everyone else, I'm just not one to cheat to gain that advantage.

4. And here is my main point - I see benefits in abiding by the terms of use... my account won't get banned therefore I can continue to play a game I enjoy. The mass sweeps concern me, there are many players who didn't do anything wrong that get caught up. That concerns me too. No botting would mean no sweeps therefore no risk of an accidental ban

:-)

p.s. sorry, had to say it - read about imperialism and statements like, well, they are better off 'cos they have a job paid for by my money in that far-off country... is that solving the root-cause? Nike is a good case study.

[djiss]

Yeah but people will continue botting as long as the game exists. :)
and you point?

The point I'm making is, the validity of any rule can always be challenged. Rules and laws are not absolute
Then make them change their rules.
But break them at your own risk.

[Tomar]

before you report, make darn sure it is a bot. you don't want to get users who are just quiet, have an odd name, or run similar patterns.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

True enough, which once again, becomes one of the problems. at best, all a collection of relatively circumstantial evidence that someone is a bot, still is circumstantial evidence. There might be a heavy amount of it, and the more there is, the harder it is to conceive an explanation. In the end, all you can do is report what you see - back it with everything you've noted about the individual, and then hope the GMs can figure it out one way or the other for certain.

[ferofax]

...but what if everything falls into place, every signs are there, and the GM's decided so too, but it is in fact a player? what then?

[speciMaN]

Well... Speciman and gmedina did a good job of taking this off-track by generalisations and relating to real-world situations that are not relevant. As other's have said, this is not a moral, political or religious issue... it's about cheating in WoW by breaking the ToU /EULA, be it by breaking the rules by any method (I can't believe you tried to define cheating as a hack but not buying gold!!!! made me smile)


Definition of Cheating:
Cheating can be to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others.

From our pals at Wikipedia. Pay attention that that last part, at the expense of others. Now follow me closely here:

- A hack creates an unfair advantage by changing the game, at the expense of other players. Therefore, a hack is considered cheating by definition.

- Paying someone to grind for gold on your behalf occurs only at your own expense. Never at any point is the game hacked, nor does any other player "suffer" as a result of someone buying gold. You see, it is Blizzard's policy that purchasing gold is not allowed. The rules of the game are coded into the game by means of programming.


1. Gold is created out of thin air. Create a character, bot it, gold is CREATED, therefore increased gold supply for fewer 'real' players. I can't see how we are arguing about inflation with that simple fact.

2. See 1. That is the problem.


Yes, yes. Your cunning observation has eluded me to this day, but now I finally understand. Thin air. Of course! And here I thought our monthly fees were backing the game gold. Duh. :ponder:

Now let's say a person is farming gold and they racked up 10,000 gold from - either by botting or manual farming. Does it matter that a single farmer has 10,000 gold? No. Is he going to spend all of that gold in the AH, buying stuff for his character? No. So that's 10,000 thin-air gold sitting in one players account, essentially non-existent to the game economy.

So let's pretend there are 100 of these farmers, each with 10,000 gold to sell. How many players on a given server would buy gold from any one of these farmers. All of the players? None? Maybe a small percentage? Let's say 5% of the realm population.

I do not know how many players exist on a realm, but I'd estimate it to be around 1000, so 5% is 50 players. Of these 50 players, how much gold will they buy...figure 200 gold each. That means you have 100,000 gold evenly divided across 100 farmers, and 50% of these farmers sell 200 gold.

Now 50 players introduce a whopping 10,000 gold into the game 'economy'....but wait, the only gold that gets reintroduced into the economy is player-to-player exchange, either directly or thru the AH. If the player buys skills from a vendor, the gold goes back into thin air (where it came from, as you cleverly revealed).

So please, share an extra dose of your wisdom with me, and help me connect the dots. How are the farmers, each with 10K gold, "hurting" the game economy or causing inflation?


3. As for myself, I don't particularly care about fairness. I care about others having an unfair advantage over me. See the difference? I'm just as selfish as everyone else, I'm just not one to cheat to gain that advantage.


Well good for you, want a cookie?


4. And here is my main point - I see benefits in abiding by the terms of use... my account won't get banned therefore I can continue to play a game I enjoy. The mass sweeps concern me, there are many players who didn't do anything wrong that get caught up. That concerns me too. No botting would mean no sweeps therefore no risk of an accidental ban


Finally, the main point. I've been waiting.... :rolleyes:

Or if botting wasn't penalized, there would be no need for sweeps either...


:-)

p.s. sorry, had to say it - read about imperialism and statements like, well, they are better off 'cos they have a job paid for by my money in that far-off country... is that solving the root-cause? Nike is a good case study.

Oh yah, there's more! The sweatshop issue...yes, the root cause is...let's level up and fix it!

[Justinledwards]

No need to be snide or sarcastic.

Introducing a bunch of non-quantifiable ("made up") figures - well - I cannot agree nor disagree with your statements, as they are unverifiable, unproven and unreferenced.

Thanks for looking up external references tho,

Definition of Cheating:
Cheating can be to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others.

You've got to read the whole definition, dude/ette, that's the point of a definition. I'm not going to pay attention to the last part, I'm going to read the whole thing. I'm not even going to check that you pasted the whole definition, sounds right to me.

I even used most of those very words in the definition in the post you just quoted back to me. The bit about "in one's own interest" I hadn't bothered with, but makes sense that you only cheat if it benefits you in some way.

I clearly see that the reference above works for the anti-bot / anti-gold farming argument.

.. and botting is penalized.

[speciMaN]

No need to be snide or sarcastic.

Introducing a bunch of non-quantifiable ("made up") figures - well - I cannot agree nor disagree with your statements, as they are unverifiable, unproven and unreferenced.

Those figures are there for illustrative purposes. Even if you scale them up, the relative effect of gold farmers on the server economy is non-existent. That is my point.


I clearly see that the reference above works for the anti-bot / anti-gold farming argument.

.. and botting is penalized.

Yes, you'll get banned if Blizz determines you to be botting or purchasing gold...a violation of their service policies, but not necessarily cheating.

[Justinledwards]

Even if you multiply your figures by a gazillion (a made up number) or even a real number, I don't know how your scenario relates to what is actually happening.

Alright - so the point here is, you know it's in violation you just don't want to call it cheating, that's ok. Call it whatever you want. I'm going to call it gaining an unfair advantage in your own benefit at the expense of others.

:ponder:

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

You've got to read the whole definition, dude/ette, that's the point of a definition. I'm not going to pay attention to the last part, I'm going to read the whole thing. I'm not even going to check that you pasted the whole definition, sounds right to me.

I even used most of those very words in the definition in the post you just quoted back to me. The bit about "in one's own interest" I hadn't bothered with, but makes sense that you only cheat if it benefits you in some way.

I clearly see that the reference above works for the anti-bot / anti-gold farming argument.

.. and botting is penalized.

Of course, that definition you quoted him using:

Cheating can be to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others.

The words I emphasized are important. They do not mean "always". Botting, gold-buying, what have you fits the definition to a tee. It creates an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others. The definition itself did not say that it always is at the expense of others. It doesn't even necessarily need to be in one's own interest -- cheating to help a friend is still cheating.

Now, what defines the "unfair advantage"? Oh, that would be the EULA/ToS. That would be Blizzard, since it is their game, their rules. And Blizzard has defined them as cheating. Claiming that it isn't cheating is an excersize in futility. Blizzard says it is cheating, Blizzard made the game, Blizzard gets to define the rules. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game. Or better yet, make a game with rules you do like!

[Justinledwards]

One minor point, since I know you have him on ignore... he quoted the definition, not me, I was quoting back!

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I know, I was referring to the definition you quoted that he quoted. sorry if I didn't make it clear. Just like I was more or less providing a follow up explanation beyond your own, my post wasn't entirely directed at you.

[Justinledwards]

No problem. I was actually drafting a post in WoW general discussion in hope of a 'blue' response (Is Botting cheating) but decided not to be bother because that would be really silly

[moopy]

No problem. I was actually drafting a post in WoW general discussion in hope of a 'blue' response (Is Botting cheating) but decided not to be bother because that would be really silly

Since when has that been a factor, on the official forums?

[PlayThemAll]

I can't believe I'm jumping back into this thread.

There is one thing that keeps getting thrown around here that bugs me in reference to gold buying. It was touched up on briefly in some of the posts but I wish to carify in a condensed form:

A player farming gold until his heart's content is not the issue, as long as he did not violate the TOU or EULA.. If a player makes 10K gold then more power to him. There are serveral players on this site that can tell you how to make as much gold as you need, either by using the AH or by grinding, in a short amount of time while still staying well withing the rules set forth by Blizzard.

The professional gold sellers typically acquire gold through illegitimate means:

Botting (basically grinding but the lack of user input makes it a clear violation of Blizzards policies. Probably does not generate as much gold as other methods)
Hacking user accounts
Gold Dup hacks (I seem recall hearing about this happening in WoW a while back)
mail scams (i.e. c.o.d. packages, mostly fixed not but still in use by a few who have managed to skirt the nerf)
in-game exploits i.e. finding loophols in the game that are yet undiscovered or unfixed by blizzard (this is also coverd in the user policies)
etc. Many other methods that I and possibly Blizzard are not yet aware of.

Gold sellers need to acquire as much gold as possible in as sort a time as possibe with as little overhead as possible in order to maintain a RL proffit. Don't beleive for a minute that they acquire it by just plaing ther game like a normal player.

You can find thread after thread on various forums from people complaining because they got banned for just buying a little gold or using a professional power leveing service. I'm sure they all felt the same way, that the rules were there to be broken, that didn't think it was fair, etc. Its pretty obvious what Blizzards stance is on these issues - zero tolerance.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Wow playthemall, you summed it up nicely. thanks.

[Penny]

It's telling, really. There are those that see the game, buy it, play by the rules and enjoy the hell out of it. Then there are those that see it, buy it, cheat for whatever reason, then ***** about the consequences of that act.

I'm leaning towards "lack of maturity" for $200, Alex.

[speciMaN]

Now, what defines the "unfair advantage"? Oh, that would be the EULA/ToS. That would be Blizzard, since it is their game, their rules. And Blizzard has defined them as cheating. Claiming that it isn't cheating is an excersize in futility. Blizzard says it is cheating, Blizzard made the game, Blizzard gets to define the rules. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game. Or better yet, make a game with rules you do like!

There's an echo in this forum!

You put me on your ignore list because you could not support your views in a debate, and yet you still respond to my posts when others quote them, paraphrasing what others have said before you in your responses, as if your validation adds some sort of legitimacy that would otherwise not be present.


The professional gold sellers typically acquire gold through illegitimate means:

* Botting (basically grinding but the lack of user input makes it a clear violation of Blizzards policies. Probably does not generate as much gold as other methods)
* Hacking user accounts
* Gold Dup hacks (I seem recall hearing about this happening in WoW a while back)
* mail scams (i.e. c.o.d. packages, mostly fixed not but still in use by a few who have managed to skirt the nerf)
* in-game exploits i.e. finding loophols in the game that are yet undiscovered or unfixed by blizzard (this is also coverd in the user policies)
* etc. Many other methods that I and possibly Blizzard are not yet aware of.

Gold sellers need to acquire as much gold as possible in as sort a time as possibe with as little overhead as possible in order to maintain a RL proffit. Don't beleive for a minute that they acquire it by just plaing ther game like a normal player.

That is true, and a lot of the smaller or independent farmers do employ REAL cheats that include hacks to the game and exploits in the game client. I never supported hacks or exploits and would always consider those cheating in the purest sense, however I do not think that established companies like IGE or BroGame use unscrupulous methods such as those to farm gold.

It's also worth pointing out that, to have your account hacked or to be victimized by a lot of these "social engineering" tactics requires someone who lacks in common sense. They usually put keyloggers into programs called "wow bot" or "wow hacker", so the people getting their accounts hacked are, ironically, trying to hack or bot the game themselves. It's like a self-serving punishment. :laughing:

In any case, we finally got a response that is a legitimate and compelling argument AGAINST supporting gold farmers.

Wow playthemall, you summed it up nicely. thanks.


Why are you "thanking" him? Because he made a valid argument that you could not? Or do you think he posted that just for your sake? Hope someone quotes this so you can read it, while you "ignore" me. hahaha

Here is a definition for you: Tool (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tool)

[Aerath]

Speciman - might I remind you that

1) These are not the official forums
2) We do not appreciate flaming
3) We do not appreciate gold sellers/power levelers/botters ?

Kindly take a good look again at the rules (http://forums.worldofwar.net/rules) you agreed to when signing up for this place.

[Xilta The Warlock]

Yeah, a bot report option would be good. i just use the closest thing to a bot report now =/

[djiss]

Yes, you'll get banned if Blizz determines you to be botting or purchasing gold...a violation of their service policies, but not necessarily cheating.

since you are good to point definition, there is one:

Cheating : to take advantage of a situation by the breaking of accepted rules or standards.

LOL

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Ok, glancing at the post speciMaN made, I'm inclined to definitely agree with Aerath on this. I put speciMaN on ignore because I didn't want to continue the building flamewar. I wanted to put a stop to the post fighting before it got out of hand. I had said my piece on the subject, and saw the argument going around in circles. Neither one of us were going to knock the other one off from his position, so I decided rather than continue, I'd do the polite thing and stop. Putting speciMaN on ignore prevented me from continuing the argument.

That said, putting speciMaN on ignore didn't mean I was done with the discussion of the topic at hand, so of course, I will continue discussing and putting my $0.02 in.

[gmedina]

Speciman - might I remind you that

1) These are not the official forums
2) We do not appreciate flaming
3) We do not appreciate gold sellers/power levelers/botters ?

Kindly take a good look again at the rules (http://forums.worldofwar.net/rules) you agreed to when signing up for this place.


Raises an interesting question regarding #3, since you don't appreciate gold sellers/power levelers/botters does that mean that we can not discuss wether doing those things are cheating or not? Seems better to ask now than to get banned for talking about a subject you don't like??

[Penny]

Ok, glancing at the post speciMaN made, I'm inclined to definitely agree with Aerath on this. I put speciMaN on ignore because I didn't want to continue the building flamewar. I wanted to put a stop to the post fighting before it got out of hand. I had said my piece on the subject, and saw the argument going around in circles. Neither one of us were going to knock the other one off from his position, so I decided rather than continue, I'd do the polite thing and stop. Putting speciMaN on ignore prevented me from continuing the argument.

That said, putting speciMaN on ignore didn't mean I was done with the discussion of the topic at hand, so of course, I will continue discussing and putting my $0.02 in.It goes around in circles because cheaters try everything to circumvent the rules. Blizz makes the rules, trying to exploit the rules is cheating, no matter how many circles you draw around that fact.

It reminds me of a situation that came up years ago with my kids. I bought them a new video game and they ran to a computer and looked up cheat codes and printed them out. A day later they had 'beaten' the game and told me that playing after they win isn't really fun...

I haven't bought them a game since, and it's been 15 years or so.

The whole attraction about cheating is having something that hasn't been earned the way it's supposed to be earned, either in RL or in a game. If that floats your boat, fine and dandy, but it would cost Blizz my accounts if they allowed it to exist without doing something about it.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

See, for me, I have no problem with people cheating in single player games. But once it goes into a multiplayer environment, cheating can and usually does impact other players around you. I hate cheating, even the thought of cheating, in a multiplayer game.

[Aerath]

Raises an interesting question regarding #3, since you don't appreciate gold sellers/power levelers/botters does that mean that we can not discuss wether doing those things are cheating or not? Seems better to ask now than to get banned for talking about a subject you don't like??

Frankly, despite this discussion having gone on for several pages, I find it an entirely moot point.

Blizzard sets the rules and we play their game. Those rules state that botting/gold selling etc etc etc are illegal.

End of discussion really.

Had blizzard said "sure, selling gold for real life cash is great, we'll do it too" - then that'd have been the end of it and it would've been legal.

With good old chess, it's stated that the Rook can move only diagonally. Nothing is stopping you physically from moving it horizontally - but it wouldn't be according to the rules. (That is, if I'm not mistaken which of the pieces is the Rook - the terms are slightly different in English than I'm used to.)

Now people can argue till they're blue in the face, but it doesn't change a lick of things about the fact that
1) It's Blizzard's game
2) They made the rules

Everything people think or feel that Blizzard "should" do is completely irrevelant.

[Beruen]

With good old chess, it's stated that the Rook can move only diagonally. Nothing is stopping you physically from moving it horizontally - but it wouldn't be according to the rules. (That is, if I'm not mistaken which of the pieces is the Rook - the terms are slightly different in English than I'm used to.)

That's the bishop, but I think you got the point across.

The problem with saying that rule X is wrong and that means you don't have to follow it is twofold. First, it's showing a severe lack of respect to the people that set the rules. It would be like smoking in the livingroom of someone that doesn't allow smoking in their house, just because you think it's a stupid rule. Trying to convince them to change the rule is fine. Disregarding the rule, not so fine.

Second, by saying that you shouldn't have to follow rules you don't agree with, you're opening the door to others to disregard rules that they don't agree with. Believe it or not, there are people that don't see anything wrong with murder. An extreme example, but it points out the fact that there really isn't any universally accepted standard of behavior. If we only follow rules that we agree with, and we aren't penalized for not following the rules, then in effect, there are no rules.

As for how botting doesn't impact anyone, you've obviously never tried to quest or farm materials around a bot in a spawn that barely supports one player.

[Onofius]

Yeah, I agree my and my friends were in Southshore and there was a guy using a bot there and we go back like seven days later and he is there like every time...

[Penny]

fyi - the rook is moved horizontally and vertically, the bishop moves diagonally.

just for accuracy sake.

[Aerath]

Ah brilliant, settles that one.

Never could remember which piece is which. Rook = Castle/Tower then.
Any idea where that term came from ?

[Penny]

Ah brilliant, settles that one.

Never could remember which piece is which. Rook = Castle/Tower then.
Any idea where that term came from ?This may explain the reason it's called as it is. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rook_(chess))