Aggro Confusion

[Chaosblaze]

Me again asking some noob questions..

Aggro, do I have to know all these threat/aggro formulas to succeed in raids?

I like being a warrior and the other day I meet a lvl 14 hunter, I am a lvl 10 warrior.

We did a quest together that requires us to kill a beast in a cave above some ranch near ironforge.

My mate pulled it and it sprinted hard at him, I ran to attempt to tank it with normal attacks since I had no rage and it just ignored me and went onto killing my mate...then soon killed me; anybody can give me some tips about noob tanking?

[Radhil]

(a) As a warrior, get your Defensive Stance as fast as you can. See your trainer for a quest for it.

(b) When you're tanking, damage is good, but abilities that make threat are better. Sunder Armor. Sunder Armor. Sunder Armor.

(c) Don't let the hunters pull. A lot of 'em think that's their job. It can be their job, but it's better if the tank knows how and gets the initial bum rush (and beside, I think that Yeti is the only thing up on that ridge)

[piscene]

I hate it when hunters pull. The tank should pull, and control aggro. Or at really low levels when its harder to control aggro, at least you can pull and control the order and pacing of the encounter.

[lowchia]

Me again asking some noob questions..

Aggro, do I have to know all these threat/aggro formulas to succeed in raids?

I like being a warrior and the other day I meet a lvl 14 hunter, I am a lvl 10 warrior.

We did a quest together that requires us to kill a beast in a cave above some ranch near ironforge.

My mate pulled it and it sprinted hard at him, I ran to attempt to tank it with normal attacks since I had no rage and it just ignored me and went onto killing my mate...then soon killed me; anybody can give me some tips about noob tanking?

I think for lvl 10...u cant talk much abt tanking since u are still lack of alot of skill......lvl up to lvl 30 first...if u still fail then we can discuss again :P

Anyway i have lvl 70 hunter, i like pulling but warrior usually hates that....so best is warrior pull

[Kugan]

If the hunter was level 14, and you were level 10, his/her pet would probably have made a better tank (no offence :). Where was the pet?

Anyway, at level 10 you get defensive stance (which causes less damage, but more aggro). Many new people think that high damage = aggro (which is sometimes true. But that's not the entire story). Many abilities create threat, and if I'm correct, a warrior gets more by being hit... so ensure that you are the first one who is hit.

[dwarfenhelm]

the only time a hunter pulls in a group is either lvl 70 using misdirection on the warrior or if you got a really tricky pull and they can run past you and let you charge in to build rage and threat. but as said dont expect to do any tanking in the real sense of the word untiul your at least lvl 30

[moopy]

Yep, always nicer to let the warrior ranged pull, unless it's a long/dangerous pull which might need cancelling, or the warrior can't reach. Otherwise, the hunter gets initial aggro, and has to hope that the warrior is awake enough to grab the aggro.

I sincerely hope you ignore dwarfenhelm's comments about it being a good idea for the warrior to then charge in- the whole point of pulling stuff back is so that you're not fighting it in its idle/reset area and/or in the way of patrols. Fighting mobs in place is the sort of thing that PUGs do pathologically, and one of the reasons why they wipe all the time. Watch a group of experienced raiders do their stuff, and you'll see that they generally prefer to decide where the fight takes place, wherever they can- to maximise safety.

Misdirection is nice, but few bosses need it on the initial pull, as long as the DPS waits a few seconds, so the tank can build aggro. Unless someone's doing something stupid during the pull (buffing/drinking etc), even really twitchy mobs will go for the tank. Given that misdirection has a two minute cooldown, it's better (in many cases) to save it for when the mob gets loose mid-fight anyway, and use it to stick some extra aggro back on the tank- assuming that the hunter is skilled enough.

However, misdirection is lv 70 talk, and probably not useful here :)

[shifttusk]

(c) Don't let the hunters pull. A lot of 'em think that's their job. It can be their job, but it's better if the tank knows how and gets the initial bum rush (and beside, I think that Yeti is the only thing up on that ridge)

This is a half truth, at a higher level whenever there is a risk of pulling adds a hunter is the best puller. Hunters have the best reset mechanism in the game and at a higher level can pull with a rank 1 sting (read 4-12 threat) or a scorpid sting (read 0 threat but pulls mobs, at greater mana cost). Hunter's at level 70 even get misdirection which allows for some crazy LOS pulling that a warrior could never accomplish.

The real problem here is the hunter is level 14, does not have feign death, does not have disengage and more than likely doesnt even have hawkeye for the additional range. Also at this level the hunters rank 1 attacks are a decent ammount of threat when compared to a level 10 warrior.

@the OP - I would recomend that you do practice your pulling, in low risk situations it is always best to let the tank pull, but also let the hunter get some practice, and don't just give him the easy ones. If you're going to play old game raids, he will need to do many pulls in molten core (including pet pulls), AQ20 (which are pretty annoying) although not so much in BWL or raids I have not run. If you plan on playing with this guy/girl frequently you are best off if they develop their skills. Just as you should. Once you reach level 35 or so (forget exactly) get a group into scarlet library and allow the hunter to do some pulls, let him use his lower rank shots and both of you use a threat moniter, you'll get the gist of it pretty quickly (hunter serpent stings, runs back to party when its clear pull is OK sized and you demo shout as mobs enter the area).

Saying hunters should not pull is downright silly. Hunters have tons of tools to allow them to pull, veer mobs off and dump agro. Warriors have one tool and that is getting beat on. However a hunter who isn't leveled enough to have these skills or has had no practice using them is another issue, just as a warrior who doesnt know how to generate effecient threat on mobs is another issue.

Practice practice practice, then look up KLH Treat Meter, then practice, then try without the meter.

[Toxicshadow]

4 most important abilities for tanking:

1) Defensive Stance. You take 10% less damage, and while you also do 10% less damage that damage will cause more threat than the 10% extra would've done if you were in combat stance.

2) Taunt. Forces your target to attack you for 3 seconds, and sets your threat towards that target to 110% of the curent threat-leader. If you have something else pulling, this is what you should hit the second you're in range. If you're pulling, this is what you hit if a player on range of you pulls aggro.

3) Revenge. Costs.. is it 5 or 10 rage? Does more threat than any other warrior attack, and with talents it'll even have a chance to stun your target.

4) Sunder Armor. The only ability that can be spammed. Not only will it generate more threat than any ability but this, revenge, and taunt, but it'll also lower your target's armor meaning that you and any other melee player (or hunter) will do more damage. You should CONSTANTLY use this if you're tanking. Well, put in Revenge and Shield Block when they come off their respective cooldowns, but if you can't use one of those and u got some rage: Sunder Armor.

[moopy]

Of course, the classic warrior and hunter pull is for the warrior to pull the mobs, and the hunter to be standing off to one side with an ice trap down. The hunter then uses distracting shot to pull a pre-determined mob out of the rush and into the trap, removing them from combat for a bit. It's a neat trick, and worth practising.

[Radhil]

Saying hunters should not pull is downright silly. Hunters have tons of tools to allow them to pull, veer mobs off and dump agro. Warriors have one tool and that is getting beat on.

This is fair to say. But. Big But. Simply put, I've met maybe one hunter who had the chops to pull groups apart and make it look easy.

Most hunters - again, my experience - are so used to being solo mob shredders and being told "hunters pull" that they're useless when it comes to group efforts and actual tricky pulls. Case in point - a recent Blood Furnace run of mine which had three people overpowered for the group, wiped three times because the hunter insisted on pulling and didn't know how at all (he was also an idiot who insisted on being group leader even though he didn't do anything with it). That group had no business dying at all but it did, and hard.

If I get another hunter that rules, the floor is all his. If not, just set your traps and get out of the tank's way.

[moopy]

To be honest, as an experienced raiding hunter, I would feel no urge to pull all the way through a five-man instance, that's just extra grief for me and the tank. I don't need to insist on every pull in order to salve my ego, I know I am good at my role.

However, I will make it clear to the tank that if he wants me to take tricky pulls, he only has to ask. If he feels that a pull is dicey, then I will gladly step up to the plate. However, most of the time, with a halfway-comptetant tank, it's pointless to have the hunter pull, and have to potentially waste an FD timer. Also, since the hunter has all the initial aggro for the pull, the warrior falls victim to the 10% rule when sticking all the inbound mobs to him. It's just basic game mechanics.

Be a resource, not a hindrance to your party. If the hunter insists on doing every single pull, then he/she is being a drama queen and is probably somewhat inexperienced. The only valid reason to take every single pull is when the warrior is horribly bad at pulling, or doesn't have a ranged weapon (it happens).

[Chaosblaze]

Thank people for all your help, I must of got carried away and being nooby as I am just got PWNT! xD

Thanks
Chaosblaze