Gold Selling

[gmedina]

Now before i get hit let me say im not supporting selling gold, i just had a thought and figured i would ask since it has been driving me crazy trying to figure it out.

Now common knowledge is that if ppl are selling gold it will lead to inflation of prices as a person can go out a buy gold and pay whatever they want for the item. This makes a certain amount of sense, not saying i agree but let's just say i do for arguments sake. So this raises the question as how the gold sellers get the gold, well the answer is the farm for it. While in the process of farming gold they will obviously be getting drops, blue, green, purple, etc so what do they do with these drops? Obviously since they want the gold to sell they will AH them to get gold to sell. This is increasing the supply of items and drops in the AH. Now we all know that increase supply will lower the price.

So here it is, the question of the day. Which is the greater force, the inflationary pressure of selling gold? Or the Deflationary pressure of increased supply in the AH? Or do they wash each other out and basically do nothing?

As i write this another thought pops up, if it is option 1: then banning gold sellers is good, if option 2: would think gold sellers would be good thing no? and lastly if option 3: they don't affect anything so why not leave em alone?

What are your thoughts?

[DraedynLei]

i'm not sure how much AH'ing gold sellers do. it might be faster for them to just vendor items.

as for what to do with them, i hope they all get hit with the perma-banstick so hard their kids would be banned.

bottom line, these people are encouraging cheating and what they do is illegal. they are trying to make money off something that they don't own.

i would hope that with the easy availability of gold in tbc, that it would make gold selling less profitable for gold sellers and maybe they'll close up shop.

[PTiger]

It's an interesting question that I've thought about before, but never seen anyone write about.

I actually observed this on my own server some months back. At one time it was widely known that there were a lot of gold farmers on my server. Some of these gold farmers used hacks to solo instances, most notably that of Dire Maul...you've seen the videos. In any case, during this time period (before TBC) the book that let's warriors and paladins get their Quel Serrar started appearing in droves on the auction house, as did the books for people to get their DM trinkets. It became so prevalent that the DM trinket books were selling for 2 or 3 gold and the quel'serrar books were going for as low as 100g a peice!

This happened for a few months, and then Blizzard announced one of their purges of people who were hacking/selling gold/etc and the closing of thousands of accounts. All of a sudden, the books in the auction house dried up. The book for quel serrar was no where to be found, and when it did appear, you could buy it for the low, low price of 1800g.

This was a profound economic shift on my server, and it was directly related to the gold farmers/sellers/hackers. So, as to the OP topic...I'll leave it up to you.

And Dreadynei, we know that selling gold is bad m'kay? This topic is about the gold farmers economic impact on your server and whether or not that is a good or bad thing. What kind of economic pressure does it put on your server, in concrete terms, not vague "it's bad so ban em" terms. Thanks.

[Elly]

As i write this another thought pops up, if it is option 1: then banning gold sellers is good, if option 2: would think gold sellers would be good thing no? and lastly if option 3: they don't affect anything so why not leave em alone?



The other main source for getting gold to sell is through hacking other's accounts. It's much more efficient than farming.

[rgirty]

Now before i get hit let me say im not supporting selling gold, i just had a thought and figured i would ask since it has been driving me crazy trying to figure it out.

Now common knowledge is that if ppl are selling gold it will lead to inflation of prices as a person can go out a buy gold and pay whatever they want for the item. This makes a certain amount of sense, not saying i agree but let's just say i do for arguments sake. So this raises the question as how the gold sellers get the gold, well the answer is the farm for it. While in the process of farming gold they will obviously be getting drops, blue, green, purple, etc so what do they do with these drops? Obviously since they want the gold to sell they will AH them to get gold to sell. This is increasing the supply of items and drops in the AH. Now we all know that increase supply will lower the price.

So here it is, the question of the day. Which is the greater force, the inflationary pressure of selling gold? Or the Deflationary pressure of increased supply in the AH? Or do they wash each other out and basically do nothing?

As i write this another thought pops up, if it is option 1: then banning gold sellers is good, if option 2: would think gold sellers would be good thing no? and lastly if option 3: they don't affect anything so why not leave em alone?

What are your thoughts?

Gold buying = supporting account hacking.

That summarizes the truth, no matter if you want to believe it or not.

[Altaris]

The other main source for getting gold to sell is through hacking other's accounts. It's much more efficient than farming.

QFT.
I'd hate to log in one day and find all my items vendored and my main deleted.

What I've been wondering though is this: why do they delete the high level mains?

[gmedina]

Gold buying = supporting account hacking.

That summarizes the truth, no matter if you want to believe it or not.

Note the first line in my post.

I wasn't asking about goodness or badness, just more regarding the economic implications of gold selling. Everyone always states gold sellers are bad b/c they raise prices, i'm wondering if that is true. Or is it that gold sellers actually drop prices by increasing supply.


P.S. Again let me reiterate I AM NOT SUPPORTING GOLD SELLING!!!!!, just questioning what is held to be commonly true and the reasong behind why we told gold sellers are bad.

[MadVlad]

Aside from account hacking, it's not so much that they increase prices or decrease prices. It's that they *skew* the economy by effectively lower prices for *some* people (gold buyers) and raising prices for others, who want to play the game. They also *prevent* normal game players from farming (not uber-farming, just plain "need 10 infernal iron ore for my devil plate" or whatever) because some of those items are in limited supply.

Screwing with gameplay = bad.

[timebomb]

if you happen to be one not buying gold you sre screwed. if gold selling was legit. prices for item will go thru the roof seeing how gold farmer sre not farming instance BOE's to sell on AH. also do you think its OK to be haking accounts because thats a sorce of income for gold sellers.

[PTiger]

Rgirty, Altaris, Madvlad, timebomb...

Stop saying Gold Selling is Bad!!!! We know that! You're wasting your time. Please talk about solid economic factors which is what this thread is about. "They skew the economy by lowering prices for some people and raising prices for others" says NOTHING! What point did you just prove? If you're going to write something, at least have the decency to write something that isn't dribble.

[SlyHilgen]

I wonder if they delete the main in order to try to cover their tracks somehow? Or maybe make it look like the account holder did it in an attempt to quit the game?

When I buy from the AH, I often /who the seller to see if they are on. Alot of times you can tell alot by their class, zone and guild. Sorry to all the legit Dwarf Hunters in the Burning Steppes that are trying to AH something :P

One other thing...I have yet to notice any typical gold-seller names selling anything on the AH...this leads me to believe there is some other means of 'laundering' these items?

[rgirty]

Aside from account hacking, it's not so much that they increase prices or decrease prices. It's that they *skew* the economy by effectively lower prices for *some* people (gold buyers) and raising prices for others, who want to play the game. They also *prevent* normal game players from farming (not uber-farming, just plain "need 10 infernal iron ore for my devil plate" or whatever) because some of those items are in limited supply.

Screwing with gameplay = bad.

They also camp certain areas making them almost un-farmable for regular players. The effect on the economy? I believe the net effect is they lower prices of most common items as they are more readily available. They fill the demand for a lot of common items. A lot of players can't be bothered to farm for these items and buy them from the ah. IF the farmers weren't providing as many of these, supply and demand would kick in and the prices would rise fairly quickly. That actually happened some months ago after a huge wave of account bans.

[PTiger]

Rgirty! Great post, see I knew you could do it! These are the posts that this thread is asking for.

[MadVlad]

Rgirty, Altaris, Madvlad, timebomb...

Stop saying Gold Selling is Bad!!!! We know that! You're wasting your time. Please talk about solid economic factors which is what this thread is about. "They skew the economy by lowering prices for some people and raising prices for others" says NOTHING! What point did you just prove? If you're going to write something, at least have the decency to write something that isn't dribble.

Did you mean "drivel", Einstein??

I'm a free marketer. Gold selling isn't bad because of what it does to the economy. I couldn't give a flip less about the economy. I can make money easily enough by exploiting the economy imbalances. It's when you start messing with the gameplay that I get pissed.

What I'm saying in a nutshell is, "It's NOT the economy, stupid".

Rgirty! Great post, see I knew you could do it! These are the posts that this thread is asking for.

Actually, I don't think you read the OP.

As i write this another thought pops up, if it is option 1: then banning gold sellers is good, if option 2: would think gold sellers would be good thing no? and lastly if option 3: they don't affect anything so why not leave em alone?

What are your thoughts?

[Altaris]

PTiger, I haven't posted any effects on the economy one way or the other simply because it is a senseless debate. How are we, mere players, to distinguish the gold sellers from the players with any real accuracy? Even normal players can skew the economy by inflating or deflating the prices on certain items. KCMA admits to doing this often. I'm doing it on my server right now.

The ultimate fact is: gold selling & buying is bad. Debate any aspects of it is ultimately a waste of time.

[SlyHilgen]

I had quite a time when I was doing the quest in BS killing dragons, due to 2 farmers keeping the place 100% clear. Reason I could tell they were farmers: they didn't reply to anything I said, and they didn't get angry when I flagged everything in the area and let them kill them for me :) In essence I let the farmer work for me.

This can often be the case with farmers...they also affect gameplay. I don;t think one is worse than the other, but affecting both the economy and gameplay is not good.

I would rather see higher prices in the auction house. This means that people would actually have to work for their items. I, for one, am all in favor of higher prices in the AH, and fewer gold farmers. Gameplay and the economy are much better that way, and the sense of accomplishment is much greater.

[gmedina]

Did you mean "drivel", Einstein??

I'm a free marketer. Gold selling isn't bad because of what it does to the economy. I could give a flip less about the economy. I can make money easily enough by exploiting the economy imbalances. It's when you start messing with the gameplay that I get pissed.

What I'm saying in a nutshell is, "It's NOT the economy, stupid".



Actually, I don't think you read the OP.

What i meant was everyone says the reason for banning gold sellers is that they raise prices. If that isn't true then what are the true reasons for bannnig?

Now in regards to skewing the game that makes certain amount of sense, except that why would skewing the game be bad. When every anyone plays they skew the game. For example if i farm an instance trying to get my Tier 3 set, and i dump all the same drops i get into the AH i am skewing the game. How is that different to the skew from the gold sellers?

In regards to lowering prices of common items, would it hold true for the rare items as well, if not why?

PTiger, I haven't posted any effects on the economy one way or the other simply because it is a senseless debate. How are we, mere players, to distinguish the gold sellers from the players with any real accuracy? Even normal players can skew the economy by inflating or deflating the prices on certain items. KCMA admits to doing this often. I'm doing it on my server right now.

The ultimate fact is: gold selling & buying is bad. Debate any aspects of it is ultimately a waste of time.

Interesting thought, gold selling is bad, debate of anytype is waste of time. That could be applied to any topic depending on where you stand.
1) Abortion is bad, debating is waste of time
2) Woman should have the right to choose, debating is a waste of time.


Using that argument we should never debate or discuss things just let might make right.


Hmm shall we rethink?:ponder:

[MadVlad]

What you do is *part* of the game. In order for you to go get your Tier 3 set, you have to buy a crapload of potions/ammo/gear/etc/etc. Your effect on the game is exactly as it should be. You put in, you get out. You play the game, you get the loot. It's what the designers had in mind. What they didn't have in mind was goldseller Chang camping out a corner of Southern Swampwood killing all the Azure Dragon Whelps so that I can't do my quest. They also didn't have in mind little L21 Genarius getting 1000g so that he can just buy all his gear and quest items without actually doing anything productive in game, which means he's not providing my ore/herbs/potions/bags/etc/etc.

It affects gameplay in ways external to those desired by the game designers.

[Altaris]

Interesting thought, gold selling is bad, debate of anytype is waste of time. That could be applied to any topic depending on where you stand.
1) Abortion is bad, debating is waste of time
2) Woman should have the right to choose, debating is a waste of time.


Using that argument we should never debate or discuss things just let might make right.


Hmm shall we rethink?:ponder:

Yes, you shall rethink. The debate about abortion is not a debate of allowing it. It is a debate of whether it is bad or not. So your analogy doesn't hold water in a sinking boat. Sorry friend, try again.

[PTiger]

Did you mean "drivel", Einstein??

I'm a free marketer. Gold selling isn't bad because of what it does to the economy. I couldn't give a flip less about the economy. I can make money easily enough by exploiting the economy imbalances. It's when you start messing with the gameplay that I get pissed.

What I'm saying in a nutshell is, "It's NOT the economy, stupid".


I did mean drivel. Thank you for correcting me. It was drivel that you wrote, my bad. I think you're wrong though, this thread is about the effect on the economy, NOT gameplay. The OP touches on the paradox that is gold farmers effect on the economy, namely that it lowers prices on goods that the public wants. And isn't that what a capitalistic market strives for? So from that standpoint isn't it a good thing? Don't you want to pay lower prices for things you need?

Interesting thought, gold selling is bad, debate of anytype is waste of time. That could be applied to any topic depending on where you stand.
1) Abortion is bad, debating is waste of time
2) Woman should have the right to choose, debating is a waste of time.


Using that argument we should never debate or discuss things just let might make right.


Hmm shall we rethink?

Agreed Medina...why are people on this thread posting just to tell us that we aren't supposed to be talking about this? Are they so blind that they think that the only thing we can say is "Gold sellers are Bad", and we aren't supposed to question it? I'm shocked.

[gmedina]

Yes, you shall rethink. The debate about abortion is not a debate of allowing it. It is a debate of whether it is bad or not. So your analogy doesn't hold water in a sinking boat. Sorry friend, try again.

Whenever you state that debate is not worthwhile or pointless waste of time, you end up in might makes right situation. You are so sure you are right you are unwilling to accept other points of view(suicide bombers anyone??). So no, my argument hold water quite well.


P.S. Did we just go way off topic here?


I did mean drivel. The OP touches on the paradox that is gold farmers effect on the economy, namely that it lowers prices on goods that the public wants. And isn't that what a capitalistic market strives for? So from that standpoint isn't it a good thing? Don't you want to pay lower prices for things you need?



Agreed Medina...why are people on this thread posting just to tell us that we aren't supposed to be talking about this? Are they so blind that they think that the only thing we can say is "Gold sellers are Bad", and we aren't supposed to question it? I'm shocked.

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!!!!

[rgirty]

I did mean drivel. Thank you for correcting me. It was drivel that you wrote, my bad. I think you're wrong though, this thread is about the effect on the economy, NOT gameplay. The OP touches on the paradox that is gold farmers effect on the economy, namely that it lowers prices on goods that the public wants. And isn't that what a capitalistic market strives for? So from that standpoint isn't it a good thing? Don't you want to pay lower prices for things you need?



Agreed Medina...why are people on this thread posting just to tell us that we aren't supposed to be talking about this? Are they so blind that they think that the only thing we can say is "Gold sellers are Bad", and we aren't supposed to question it? I'm shocked.

Question whatever you like, morality almost always comes in to play in situations like this. There will always be two sides.

1. Those that think goldselling/buy/famers&bots are bad, screw up the gameplay and get peoples accounts hacked.

2. Those that think that since they have excess RL money they can't be bothered with the fuss of farming up gold so they basically use the contract labor of gold farmers.

There are two or more sides to every debate, thats why we are here on the forums in essence.

However you want to take the side road and analyze gold seller/buyer effect on the economy? The overpowering/overshadowing larger issue of it being totally wrong or OK with you will more than likely be the focus.

You can compare it to debating illegal drug use, ask people not to look at if it is truly "bad" or not but how it relates to the economy. I think most if not all people would have a difficult time debating economics within the environment of illegal drug use.

I for one think: Gold buying/selling is wrong- nothing matters after this point.

If hacked accounts were one of the ways this gold is obtained, the discussion might change.

However, as long as someone who plays the game for years to gain their items/rep investment into their char can come to an addon site download threatmeter get hacked and lose everything occurs, I don't feel the need to discuss the "economics" of it.

Just my two cp, i'll leave it alone now.

[DraedynLei]

Agreed Medina...why are people on this thread posting just to tell us that we aren't supposed to be talking about this? Are they so blind that they think that the only thing we can say is "Gold sellers are Bad", and we aren't supposed to question it? I'm shocked.

So it seems like you're implying that you question the assumption that gold selling is bad? Gold sellers aren't bad because they wreck economies imo, they're bad because they violate the rules of the game we all play and in certain circumstances affect game play as well. I believe the OP was asking our opinions on what should happen with gold sellers in general as well. So me saying they should be perma-banned was simply answering the OP's question. If you want a thread that doesn't include this discussion, I suggest you make a new one with a new query.

Do gold sellers effect the economies of servers? Of course. How? I think it would depend heavily on their method of acquiring the gold they sell. Obviously the influx of any one item will drive the cost down, it's simple supply and demand. Plus only the prices of the specific items being farmed are driven down. So as a whole I doubt we'd miss the "lowered" prices much. But anyway, these things happen in the course of regular game play as well and ultimately isn't the reason why gold selling should or shouldn't be banned. The influx of free gold probably had a more pronounced effect before the expansion, but with it's release and the higher availability of large amounts of gold, i believe this effect to be diffused to a greater extent. Personally I don't think it makes a lot of sense to buy gold now when it's so easily attainable. I'm no kcma, but I usually make around 100g/hr just questing, AH'ing my drops, and using the netherweave drops to make bags and then selling em.

[gmedina]

Question whatever you like, morality almost always comes in to play in situations like this. There will always be two sides.

1. Those that think goldselling/buy/famers&bots are bad, screw up the gameplay and get peoples accounts hacked.

2. Those that think that since they have excess RL money they can't be bothered with the fuss of farming up gold so they basically use the contract labor of gold farmers.

There are two or more sides to every debate, thats why we are here on the forums in essence.

However you want to take the side road and analyze gold seller/buyer effect on the economy? The overpowering/overshadowing larger issue of it being totally wrong or OK with you will more than likely be the focus.

You can compare it to debating illegal drug use, ask people not to look at if it is truly "bad" or not but how it relates to the economy. I think most if not all people would have a difficult time debating economics within the environment of illegal drug use.

Now that is an interesting thought. Why is it we can't discuss one aspect without the other? Is it an inability to detach ourselves from the situation?



I for one think: Gold buying/selling is wrong- nothing matters after this point.

If hacked accounts were one of the ways this gold is obtained, the discussion might change.

However, as long as someone who plays the game for years to gain their items/rep investment into their char can come to an addon site download threatmeter get hacked and lose everything occurs, I don't feel the need to discuss the "economics" of it.

Just my two cp, i'll leave it alone now.

Balooe(i know for sure that ain't spelled right), Im sure there are ppl out there hacking for gold reasons, but you can't say every gold seller does this.

So it seems like you're implying that you question the assumption that gold selling is bad? Gold sellers aren't bad because they wreck economies imo, they're bad because they violate the rules of the game we all play and in certain circumstances affect game play as well. I believe the OP was asking our opinions on what should happen with gold sellers in general as well. So me saying they should be perma-banned was simply answering the OP's question. If you want a thread that doesn't include this discussion, I suggest you make a new one with a new query.

Do gold sellers effect the economies of servers? Of course. How? I think it would depend heavily on their method of acquiring the gold they sell. Obviously the influx of any one item will drive the cost down, it's simple supply and demand. Plus only the prices of the specific items being farmed are driven down. So as a whole I doubt we'd miss the "lowered" prices much. But anyway, these things happen in the course of regular game play as well and ultimately isn't the reason why gold selling should or shouldn't be banned. The influx of free gold probably had a more pronounced effect before the expansion, but with it's release and the higher availability of large amounts of gold, i believe this effect to be diffused to a greater extent. Personally I don't think it makes a lot of sense to buy gold now when it's so easily attainable. I'm no kcma, but I usually make around 100g/hr just questing, AH'ing my drops, and using the netherweave drops to make bags and then selling em.

True but gold is easier to attain but prices have also increased a crap load. I mean at lvl 69 spells are 10g, OUCH!!!

So what your saying is, that the gold sellers aren't really raising prices or affecting gameplay but instead are cheating and as such should be banned because they are cheaters? That is a fair stance to take, but since we always hear that it is the inflation they cause that is the problem figured i would ask if they actually cause this said inflation

[Altaris]

True but gold is easier to attain but prices have also increased a crap load. I mean at lvl 69 spells are 10g, OUCH!!!

So what your saying is, that the gold sellers aren't really raising prices or affecting gameplay but instead are cheating and as such should be banned because they are cheaters? That is a fair stance to take, but since we always hear that it is the inflation they cause that is the problem figured i would ask if they actually cause this said inflation

But see, your OP doesn't come out with that. If you had taken that stance in the first place, this would have been a fairly different imo.

Here is why this debate is pointless: there are no facts to be had. I will be immensely surprised to discover if a single person on this site can provide any factual data relating to this debate.

Frankly, all we can do is debate our opinions. You asked for peoples thoughts, we gave them to you. It is rather pompous of you to tell us to then take our thoughts elsewhere because you established "rules" within which we can post.

[gmedina]

But see, your OP doesn't come out with that. If you had taken that stance in the first place, this would have been a fairly different imo.

Here is why this debate is pointless: there are no facts to be had. I will be immensely surprised to discover if a single person on this site can provide any factual data relating to this debate.

Not true, as ppl noted when blizzard went and banned a large number of gold sellers prices of items went up. Seems pretty factual to me.



Frankly, all we can do is debate our opinions. You asked for peoples thoughts, we gave them to you. It is rather pompous of you to tell us to then take our thoughts elsewhere because you established "rules" within which we can post.

Fair enough,

But i never said take your thought elsewhere, if i did plz tell me where as i didn't mean too.

On the other hand just because you share your thoughts means i agree with you, i totally appreciate the posts and thoughts but debating them is the point of forums no???

[Altaris]

Not true, as ppl noted when blizzard went and banned a large number of gold sellers prices of items went up. Seems pretty factual to me.

Fair enough,

But i never said take your thought elsewhere, if i did plz tell me where as i didn't mean too.

On the other hand just because you share your thoughts means i agree with you, i totally appreciate the posts and thoughts but debating them is the point of forums no???

People can share their experiences, sure. But those experiences may be based on incorrect perceptions.

For example:
On my server, there is a 70 mage named RuleViolator. He is generally on and in IF at the AH. He is a somewhat popular seller of high end enchants, and often spams the trade channel with adverts. He corners the market on large shards, radiant and brilliant. He buys any underbidders immediately and relists everything at his prices. (Works for me, easy gold.)
He also corners the market on eternal essence.
RV will occasionally take a break from WoW, say three or four days. During this time, the prices on those items change radically. Sometimes they come down by several gold each, sometimes they go up.
RV is, imo, no gold seller though. And yet, he impacts the economy in what can be percieved as major ways by driving up the prices of enchanting materials.

You do not have to be a gold seller to affect the economy in WoW.

But here's the thing: I cannot back up that story with any data at all. I might have made it up. It could be true. This "debate" is all opinion because there is no factual data to show and share.

As for your ending question, I agree. We are here to communicate opinions, experiences and information with people of like interests. Maybe that makes my point about this being a "useless debate" moot, maybe it doesn't. That, like most things, would be up to the reader's opinion.

[LunarSolaris]

The reality is that gold sellers don't appear to impact the economy significantly... maybe slightly at best.

However, as mentioned by several others... gold selling isn't about the economy though... it's about fair game play and it's about malicious practicies that are associated with "gold sellers".

As Elly and others note - Gold sellers don't necessarily rely on "farming", moreover scams, hacks, and cheats. They derive gold from scams such as "present from the argent dawn", and hacks that allowed them to teleport to other areas and farm DM solo. They rely on shady tactics such as hacking into people's accounts, taking gold and items from them and deleting characters.

ALL of these tactics are far more damaging than making slight changes in the economy will ever be. For these reasons, buying gold can NEVER be justified as an "innocent" activity because you can afford the RL money to buy the gold. Buying gold supports shady and unfair behavior and should never been justified or tolerated. If Blizzard didn't crack down on it, it would destroy the game. Literally.

[MadVlad]

I think you're wrong though, this thread is about the effect on the economy, NOT gameplay.
BS. The only important thing *is* the gameplay.

The OP touches on the paradox that is gold farmers effect on the economy, namely that it lowers prices on goods that the public wants. And isn't that what a capitalistic market strives for? So from that standpoint isn't it a good thing? Don't you want to pay lower prices for things you need?
First, you're assuming that the effect of goldsellers is that they always lower prices. Wrong. They always lower prices on farmable items, but the unfarmable items' prices go UP, simply because people who have bought gold will now pay more for them.

Second, a capitalistic market does not strive for lower prices. A capitalistic market strives to eliminate market inefficiencies. Sometimes that results in lower prices (person A makes widget X more cheaply than person B), and sometimes that results in higher prices (removal of government price controls).

Third, sometimes captitalism *is* bad. Would you want your military protection to be a service only available to the highest bidder? How about law enforcement?

Fourth, again, the game isn't the economy.

Agreed Medina...why are people on this thread posting just to tell us that we aren't supposed to be talking about this? Are they so blind that they think that the only thing we can say is "Gold sellers are Bad", and we aren't supposed to question it? I'm shocked.

Wrong. Some of us are saying that you're asking the wrong question. Most of us are *not* saying you're not supposed to be talking about this. (Why do so many people think that someone arguing with their point == people saying that they shouldn't argue? Persecution complex??) It's just that most people already realize what you haven't. The game is the game.

[gmedina]

The reality is that gold sellers don't appear to impact the economy significantly... maybe slightly at best.

However, as mentioned by several others... gold selling isn't about the economy though... it's about fair game play and it's about malicious practicies that are associated with "gold sellers".

As Elly and others note - Gold sellers don't necessarily rely on "farming", moreover scams, hacks, and cheats. They derive gold from scams such as "present from the argent dawn", and hacks that allowed them to teleport to other areas and farm DM solo. They rely on shady tactics such as hacking into people's accounts, taking gold and items from them and deleting characters.

ALL of these tactics are far more damaging than making slight changes in the economy will ever be. For these reasons, buying gold can NEVER be justified as an "innocent" activity because you can afford the RL money to buy the gold. Buying gold supports shady and unfair behavior and should never been justified or tolerated. If Blizzard didn't crack down on it, it would destroy the game. Literally.

Hmm that just maybe the most logicaly stated argument i have heard to date. So in answer to my original question it seems that gold sellers aren't really the cause behing the rapid increase in prices like everyone has been saying. On the other hand this doen't mean they don't affect the game play negatively just that it isn't by inflation.

[LunarSolaris]

Not to be too nitpicky MadVlad, but military contracts are awarded to the highest bidder. :wink:

[Altaris]

Not to be too nitpicky MadVlad, but military contracts are awarded to the highest bidder. :wink:

Not to be too nitpicky Lunar, but Vlad was talking about the military service, not the contracts the military gives out. :cool:


Edit:
@Medina's last post. I do believe they negatively impact the economy, just not to the extent it seems many people believe. As was said earlier, farmable items will scale down in price because there are more of them. Assuming the farmers don't just vendor stuff, of course. And the prices of rarer items will go up because the gold sellers wand to recycle the gold they sell. As in, they sell you gold to buy their leet epeen epixx, which they sell to the next guy to buy their next leet epeen epixx, so on and so forth.

[LunarSolaris]

Hmm that just maybe the most logicaly stated argument i have heard to date. So in answer to my original question it seems that gold sellers aren't really the cause behing the rapid increase in prices like everyone has been saying. On the other hand this doen't mean they don't affect the game play negatively just that it isn't by inflation.


I think debates about gold sellers have a tendency to get hung up on questions about the economy when the debate really should be focused on the other questions. On the surface, gold selling can seem "innocent" stating that it helps to lower prices, thus, making things more affordable for others. But as mentioned... there are far more reaching issues than a few lower prices on farmable items.

Not to be too nitpicky Lunar, but Vlad was talking about the military service, not the contracts the military gives out. :cool:

lol, my bad... I mis-read the statement. Carry on. :wave: :lipsrsealed:

[gmedina]

BS. The only important thing *is* the gameplay.


First, you're assuming that the effect of goldsellers is that they always lower prices. Wrong. They always lower prices on farmable items, but the unfarmable items' prices go UP, simply because people who have bought gold will now pay more for them..

Umm how is that possible??? If you can sell it on AH it is farmable, the only things not farmable are things that are BoP, so how do gold sellers increase the price of those? I think this makes no sense but maybe im missing something?


Second, a capitalistic market does not strive for lower prices. A capitalistic market strives to eliminate market inefficiencies. Sometimes that results in lower prices (person A makes widget X more cheaply than person B), and sometimes that results in higher prices (removal of government price controls)

Yes but your missing the point, the reason to eliminate inefficiencies in the market is to reduce wasted resources ergo cheaper. That is the point of capatalistic market.


Third, sometimes captitalism *is* bad. Would you want your military protection to be a service only available to the highest bidder? How about law enforcement?)

Your missing the point, not talking about a capatalistic SOCIETY but a capatalistic ECONOMY. Besides saying it is bad is a matter of opinion, some say that communism is the way to go. They aren't wrong just different way of splitting resources among the community.


Fourth, again, the game isn't the economy.


Wrong a very important part of the game is the game economy, hence the reason for the AH.


Wrong. Some of us are saying that you're asking the wrong question. Most of us are *not* saying you're not supposed to be talking about this. (Why do so many people think that someone arguing with their point == people saying that they shouldn't argue? Persecution complex??) It's just that most people already realize what you haven't. The game is the game.

Granted game is a game, and it's importance is of that as a game. Not attributing anymore to it than that but if you feel so stronly that way, why are you posting?

Besides this is an interesting discussion don't you think?

[Altaris]

lol, my bad... I mis-read the statement. Carry on. :wave: :lipsrsealed:

lawlz


I think debates about gold sellers have a tendency to get hung up on questions about the economy when the debate really should be focused on the other questions. On the surface, gold selling can seem "innocent" stating that it helps to lower prices, thus, making things more affordable for others. But as mentioned... there are far more reaching issues than a few lower prices on farmable items.

True enough.

[gmedina]

I think debates about gold sellers have a tendency to get hung up on questions about the economy when the debate really should be focused on the other questions. On the surface, gold selling can seem "innocent" stating that it helps to lower prices, thus, making things more affordable for others. But as mentioned... there are far more reaching issues than a few lower prices on farmable items.

Why? That is like saying the discussion about drugs being made legal shouldn't be on weather it is viable but on the violence the drug dealers cause by dealing drugs.

Of course this misses the point that if the drugs where legal then the drug dealers would go out of business and the violence would END. But hey we shouldn't talk about that since what we should talk about is how to stop those pesky drug dealers.

[Rex Normal]

Well the OP is also operating on several assumptions, the main one being that the reason people don't like gold sellers is due to their effect on the economy. I don't think this is a fair assumption to be made to base a debate on.

Gold sellers DO affect the economy just like any normal player can affect the economy, but for good or bad it doesn't matter. The fact is the means they use to get the gold is abnormal, wether it be botting, account hacking or slave labor. Therefore their affect on the economy is abnormal. And regardless of wether or not something is good or bad for the economy itself, an abmormal economy is not good for the game.

Your examples of prices fluctuating once a mass ban has gone into effect cannot be considered relevant, as any change to the game in any form will affect the economy in a major way. Those banned were not strictly gold sellers, but gold buyers and users of powerleveling services. But as economy's will do, it will rebound and regain normalcy over time. I'm sure that if there was some magic way blizzard managed to eliminate gold sellers from the game entirely and permanently the economy would go up and down left and right for a few days, but eventually would rebound.

The true reasons why gold selling is bad are:
1.) It enables gold buying which can give a player an advantage over another without actually earning it in the game.
2.) Bots and farmers interfere with those who want to play the game as it is intended. - I shouldn't have to compete for kills/gold/loot with a program ever.
3.) Gold sellers are making real world money off of something they don't own, which is probably the main reason Blizzard objects to it. Blizard did not develop this game to make other people rich. You can argue capitalism and whatnot but it's Blizzard's product and they have a right to dictate what users of their product can and cannot do via the TOU. Just like you can't legally buy a 12 back of Coke for 3 bucks and sell them on the street for one buck a can.

[gmedina]

Well the OP is also operating on several assumptions, the main one being that the reason people don't like gold sellers is due to their effect on the economy. I don't think this is a fair assumption to be made to base a debate on.

Yet it is always the one you hear, and that is my point.


Gold sellers DO affect the economy just like any normal player can affect the economy, but for good or bad it doesn't matter. The fact is the means they use to get the gold is abnormal, wether it be botting, account hacking or slave labor. Therefore their affect on the economy is abnormal. And regardless of wether or not something is good or bad for the economy itself, an abmormal economy is not good for the game.

Your examples of prices fluctuating once a mass ban has gone into effect cannot be considered relevant, as any change to the game in any form will affect the economy in a major way. Those banned were not strictly gold sellers, but gold buyers and users of powerleveling services. But as economy's will do, it will rebound and regain normalcy over time. I'm sure that if there was some magic way blizzard managed to eliminate gold sellers from the game entirely and permanently the economy would go up and down left and right for a few days, but eventually would rebound.

The true reasons why gold selling is bad are:
1.) It enables gold buying which can give a player an advantage over another without actually earning it in the game.
2.) Bots and farmers interfere with those who want to play the game as it is intended. - I shouldn't have to compete for kills/gold/loot with a program ever.
3.) Gold sellers are making real world money off of something they don't own, which is probably the main reason Blizzard objects to it. Blizard did not develop this game to make other people rich. You can argue capitalism and whatnot but it's Blizzard's product and they have a right to dictate what users of their product can and cannot do via the TOU. Just like you can't legally buy a 12 back of Coke for 3 bucks and sell them on the street for one buck a can.

As a matter of fact, you can. Once i own it i can resell it at anyprice i want. Hence the difference in price btw Sam's and Walmart.

[LunarSolaris]

Why? That is like saying the discussion about drugs being made legal shouldn't be on weather it is viable but on the violence the drug dealers cause by dealing drugs.

Of course this misses the point that if the drugs where legal then the drug dealers would go out of business and the violence would END. But hey we shouldn't talk about that since what we should talk about is how to stop those pesky drug dealers.

I'm not quite following your analogy here. From what I can see, your analogy doesn't compare to the discussion about gold sellers. Perhaps you can rephrase or use a different analogy.

[gmedina]

I'm not quite following your analogy here. From what I can see, your analogy doesn't compare to the discussion about gold sellers. Perhaps you can rephrase or use a different analogy.


People will say that you shouldn't discuss legalized drugs because what you should discuss is the violence caused by drug dealers. The conversation should be how to stop those pesky drug dealers. This type of retoric overlooks that legalizing drugs would put the drug dealers out of business and guess what the side effect is. Yup no violence.

[Rex Normal]

Yet it is always the one you hear, and that is my point.

Not the one I hear. I think you have a narrow minded perspective on this. Often people cite several reasons for why gold selling is bad, the effect on the economy being only one of them.



As a matter of fact, you can. Once i own it i can resell it at anyprice i want. Hence the difference in price btw Sam's and Walmart.

The difference in price between Sam's and Walmart is because the ones you buy from Sam's are marked for resale. They are sold in bulk only so that peoople who own vending machines can stock their product. The ones you buy from Walmart are marked "not for resale" which means you cannot sell them.


Am I to assume that because you attack only the last line of my second quote that you can't find anything wrong with the rest of it?

People will say that you shouldn't discuss legalized drugs because what you should discuss is the violence caused by drug dealers. The conversation should be how to stop those pesky drug dealers. This type of retoric overlooks that legalizing drugs would put the drug dealers out of business and guess what the side effect is. Yup no violence.

Again very narrow minded. Drug violence is only one aspect of said arguement. The effect of drugs on the population would be another aspect. but you want to just focus on one aspect at a time it seems rather than argue the big picture.

[gmedina]

Not the one I hear. I think you have a narrow minded perspective on this. Often people cite several reasons for why gold selling is bad, the effect on the economy being only one of them.





The difference in price between Sam's and Walmart is because the ones you buy from Sam's are marked for resale. They are sold in bulk only so that peoople who own vending machines can stock their product. The ones you buy from Walmart are marked "not for resale" which means you cannot sell them.

The cans that come in my 12packs are not marked as not for resale. Are they different based on region?

[mesonm]

They also camp certain areas making them almost un-farmable for regular players. The effect on the economy? I believe the net effect is they lower prices of most common items as they are more readily available. They fill the demand for a lot of common items. A lot of players can't be bothered to farm for these items and buy them from the ah. IF the farmers weren't providing as many of these, supply and demand would kick in and the prices would rise fairly quickly. That actually happened some months ago after a huge wave of account bans.

This is totally true, and is contrary what others are saying...

[MadVlad]

Umm how is that possible??? If you can sell it on AH it is farmable, the only things not farmable are things that are BoP, so how do gold sellers increase the price of those? I think this makes no sense but maybe im missing something?
By "farmable", I meant something that is economically viable for someone to grind and sell. Phat pinks obtainable from high level dungeons, for instance, are not farmable by that definition, as they are often costly to obtain.

Your missing the point, not talking about a capatalistic SOCIETY but a capatalistic ECONOMY. Besides saying it is bad is a matter of opinion, some say that communism is the way to go. They aren't wrong just different way of splitting resources among the community.
You're really splitting hairs here. Capitalism describes the economic aspect of society. And you were the one that said Capitalism is better. Which way do you want it?? You want to be able to make global pronouncements on the goodness of things or not? I was simply using your standard of "goodness".

Wrong a very important part of the game is the game economy, hence the reason for the AH.
My emphasis.


Granted game is a game, and it's importance is of that as a game. Not attributing anymore to it than that but if you feel so stronly that way, why are you posting?

Besides this is an interesting discussion don't you think?
I do, and I felt that it could have been more interesting without the whole thread nazi tone. Not "it's my point get TF out!".

But if you want to continue to claim that gold selling is good because of Adam Smith yada yada yada and don't want to listen to counterpoints, then proceed ...

[rgirty]

Now that is an interesting thought. Why is it we can't discuss one aspect without the other? Is it an inability to detach ourselves from the situation?

Yes, it is. Thats why people can't discuss religion. It eventually comes down to "your going to hell!" instead of discussing the fine points.


Balooe(i know for sure that ain't spelled right), Im sure there are ppl out there hacking for gold reasons, but you can't say every gold seller does this.

You also cannot say that every gold seller does not.

Gold buying causes account hacking.

Until you can get out from under that dark cloud you can't discuss the subject. Just look at this thread and how it has exploded into all kinds of theoretical morally based talk.

People aren't vulcans. Vulcans are vulcans. People cannot come along and say "that isn't logical".

Anyway, i'm done here.

[DraedynLei]

i believe a more apt analogy to this problem is the debate over illegal immigration. large farm corporations hire illegal migrants to pick their goods, thus making produce cheaper for everyone. but that's not where it ends. the system isn't closed. as a result, you have negative effects in other areas. taxes are higher to handle the increase load on emergency and school services. insurance is higher in areas with larger populations of illegals (I'm from SD, so i pay a premium just to drive here), and so on. that's not to mention the morality debate of paying these people a less than livable wage as well subverting the wages and power of legal workers. that's why i think it's hard to separate out the morality from the question. you really can't have one without the other. i studied sociology and ethnic studies in school and this debate can just go on forever. anyway, just my two cents.

[kcma]

i believe a more apt analogy to this problem is the debate over illegal immigration. large farm corporations hire illegal migrants to pick their goods, thus making produce cheaper for everyone. but that's not where it ends. the system isn't closed. as a result, you have negative effects in other areas. taxes are higher to handle the increase load on emergency and school services. insurance is higher in areas with larger populations of illegals (I'm from SD, so i pay a premium just to drive here), and so on. that's not to mention the morality debate of paying these people a less than livable wage as well subverting the wages and power of legal workers. that's why i think it's hard to separate out the morality from the question. you really can't have one without the other. i studied sociology and ethnic studies in school and this debate can just go on forever. anyway, just my two cents.

it was never about morality. it's about $$$ :) couple hundreds of years ago, you land in the US and you stay here for good. funny how it's so hard to cross that border between TJ and SD now :)

[PTiger]

i believe a more apt analogy to this problem is the debate over illegal immigration. large farm corporations hire illegal migrants to pick their goods, thus making produce cheaper for everyone. but that's not where it ends. the system isn't closed. as a result, you have negative effects in other areas. taxes are higher to handle the increase load on emergency and school services. insurance is higher in areas with larger populations of illegals (I'm from SD, so i pay a premium just to drive here), and so on. that's not to mention the morality debate of paying these people a less than livable wage as well subverting the wages and power of legal workers. that's why i think it's hard to separate out the morality from the question. you really can't have one without the other. i studied sociology and ethnic studies in school and this debate can just go on forever. anyway, just my two cents.

And this is where I completely disagree with you. We can talk about the economic impact that illegal immigration has on the United States, without talking about it's morality. In fact, I would argue that you must understand illegal immigrations economic impact BEFORE you make any type of ethical decision regarding the issue.

How can you judge it before you know how it affects you and others? Someone did research about illegal immigration to come up with evidence that these workers were making a less than livable wage. Someone also has done research about illegal immigrations economic impact on the country as a whole. You then took this information and said that illegal immigration is bad. NOT the other way around. Do you see what I'm getting at?

And for the record, I think Gold Selling is horrible. I completely understand most of the negative impacts it has on the game as a whole. But in order to BETTER understand it, I'd like to pick apart the nitty gritty economic impacts that is has on my server. And to do that objectively, I leave ethics out of the question. After I do my analysis then I can decide for myself whether or not the new information I have gleaned changes my opinion in any way. And if for no other reason, when someone asks why gold selling is bad...I'll have more evidence than I otherwise would if this conversation had never been broached.

[Rex Normal]

So let's say for arguement's sake that we all agreed on the fact that selling gold for real world money does not effect the game's economy in a negative way at all. Then what?

[kcma]

i think it's easier to just agree that no one would ever agree on anything :) it's like arguing my religion is more right than your religion ;)

[Rex Normal]

Uhh, no need to deflate the arguement. If you have nothing to contribute you can just sit it out.

[Valas Azuviir]

option 3: they don't affect anything so why not leave em alone?

What are your thoughts?

When you're in my house, you obey my rules. If, you don't, then I'll be kicking you out. That about sums up my own stance.

Blizzard does not want this in their game, fine, we got to respect that.
No, if's, not buts. It's no different from us having rules on this forum. You break them, we're liable to warn you, if we think you're still redeemable, though we're under no obligation to do so. If we think it's a lost cause.... *WHAAAM* :sinister:

And on two related notes.
This thread needs to simmer down with the heat folks, keep Commandment 1 (http://forums.worldofwar.net/rules) in mind. You're beginning to make me surly... :annoyed:

In addition, keep the no back to back posting, unless you really can't avoid it* rule in mind. See Commandment 2 (http://forums.worldofwar.net/rules).

*: Can't avoid it due to having too many symbols in your message, there is a max limit on the number of letters, numbers, punctuation you can use in a post. Having to post multiple pics. Being unable to edit a post, because more than an hour has passed since initially posting what you did. If, it doesn't meet those criteria, then edit your post.

[Aerath]

i think it's easier to just agree that no one would ever agree on anything :) it's like arguing my religion is more right than your religion ;)

And as usual the man is completely right again.

That said, Valas summed up my stance pretty accurately. Blizzard says no, then it's no. Blizzard says yes, then it's yes.
Quite simple really.

[Lonestarrrrr]

i only read to the second page, so i'll go back and read after i post, but i've been thinking about this.

gold farmers seem to "accelerate" the economy. bear with me.

everyone wants to have lots of gold, for whatever reason, to buy stuff - mounts, materials, consumables boe's etc... but at the same time, many people are just too lazy to put in the endless hours to grind out the gold to fund that kind of spending.

some people (group 1) will suck it up and grind for hours, adding lots of money to the economy, and supplying themselves with gold to buy whatever they need. if these people need something, they'll grind the gold and won't take no for an answer, no matter how boring it may or may not be.

some might grind for a moderate amount of time (group 2), get bored, and decide that they will make sacrifices and only buy what they really need while doing minimal farming. you could say they add a moderate amount of gold to the economy.

other people refuse to farm for gold and get by on the bare minimum and instance drops. they add little gold to the economy. (group 3)

now with gold buyers and sellers, what we have is people who don't have the patience to farm but still want to buy lots of stuff. these are the people who buy gold. they have someone else do their grinding for them - the gold farmers.

when you look at the big picture, it seems as though the combination of a farmer, plus a member of group 3, simulates the actions of the hardcore grinder (group 1)

my theory is that if you took every single gold buyer on a given server, and replaced them (and the corresponding farmer who is supplying the gold) person for person with a hardcore grinder (group 1), the end results would be very similar.

in an equation:

1 gold farmer + 1 gold buyer = 1 hardcore grinder/spender (group 1)

the overall effect of this seems to simulate what it would be like if many of the people who are too lazy to grind gold actually got off their asses and did it....lol

i think the more hardcore grinders/spenders that you have on a server, the more rapidly the server economy will mature, and with that, inflation. i think inflation is inevitable, but this process of lazy people having others do their grinding speeds it up.

so staying consistent with this theory^, i guess it begs the question "is the economic design of WoW balanced in a way that assumes there will be a certain balance of people from all 3 groups? and does the combination of farmers and buyers, which simulates the effect of an un-usualy high number of group 1 hardcore grinders/spenders have a negative effect on the economy?"

i guess in closing, one could ask "what would the economy of a realm look that by chance was made up of an unusually high number of hardcore grinders and spenders? would we see the same inflation that we do now? and who would people blame for it?"

(alot of this post is speculation, and i know there are probably more variables invlolved (and or holes in my logic) so im not claiming any of this to be truth! it's just something to think of, and maybe will spark some interesting discussion)

edit: for the record im undecided from a moral standpoint. i am 100% against hacking accounts for gold, as well as bots and exploits. but im not totally convinced that someone who manually farms gold, and gives it to someone else who is too lazy to do it themselves is actually wreaking havoc on the economy in the way people think it is. does it impact the economy? no doubt... but im still undecided on how negative/neutral/positive that impact is.

heres another cool thread similar in subject:

http://forums.worldofwar.net/showthread.php?t=370326&highlight=gold+farmers

finally, i know that gold buying and selling is against the rules. but i don't think that fact should mean that we can't discuss what effect it's having on the economy, it's an interesting discussion imo.

...and some of us just enjoy contemplating the if's!

[Kodonn]

in an equation:

1 gold farmer + 1 gold buyer = 1 hardcore grinder/spender (group 1)



(alot of this post is speculation, and i know there are probably more variables invlolved (and or holes in my logic) so im not claiming any of this to be truth! it's just something to think of, and maybe will spark some interesting discussion)


Since you brought up the subject of "holes in your logic", I am going to point out what I believe to be a very big one that many people seem to be making.

In your "equation" (by the way, equations are supposed to be "balanced" on each side of the = . Your's is not :)
You equate 1 gold farmer + 1 gold buyer, with 1 hardcore grinder/spender (group 1) There is a problem with that.

The flaw is in assuming that the gold farmer and the gold buyer are both abiding by the set rules for playing in WoW, up until the point where they step outside them to exchange their real world currency for WoW gold.

I don't believe that you can make that assumption.
No one but the gold farmer (and maybe his close accomplices) know how he or she actually obtains that gold. It's already been pointed out that just grinding for it like a regular by-the-rules player would do, is not very efficient. If they are in it as a business, the "logical" conclusion would be that they would take the route that gets them the most gold in the least amount of time. Since rules don't seem to matter, it's just as easy to conclude that the gold farmers are also big into hacking accounts, and using exploits and bots.

Additionally, many seem to conclude that this gold farmer will take all of his/her blue (or whatever color) drops and AH them for more gold to sell.
Again, let me point out that from a busines standpoint, that isn't the logical conclusion. First, it would take time away from farming as well as the cost of posting these items on the AH. (If they don't sell, the posting cost is gold no longer available to sell) Secondly, placing these items on the AH would generally drive the prices down as some have said. Think about that in a business sense. If someone wants you to buy gold from them, why would they do anything in the market to actually lower the cost of items ? That would in turn mean that the gold buyers would need LESS gold for their purchases. I don't have an MBA, but I think that keeping the cost of items high would be more in the best interest of the gold farmer.

Now let's look at the gold buyer you placed on the left side of your equation.
You desribed the gold buyers as players who just don't have the patience to grind for the money they need, or players who are just lazy.
"now with gold buyers and sellers, what we have is people who don't have the patience to farm but still want to buy lots of stuff. these are the people who buy gold"

This is strictly my own personal opinion....
but if these people are willing to overlook this major rule violation by purchasing gold (I use the words "major violation" because the penalty is pretty severe) why should I or anyone else trust them to abide by any of the other rules in the game ? Do I want them in my guild ? Should I trust them to lead a raid with master loot on ? If they are too lazy to actually "play" the game the way it is intended, should we suspect them of also using bots and powerleveling services ? I can't really answer all of those questions. The truth is, we don't have enough information. But heer is what I do. I choose not to take a risk on them.

There are plenty of players in this game who choose to "play" the way it was intended. Those are the players I want to invest my time and trust in. Why should I bother with the ones who thumb their noses at the rules ? I don't want to spend my time wondering what else they are too lazy to do and what other rules they're just going to try and step around.

Am I prejudging all the gold buyers ? Yes, I am. I am sure that for most gold buyers, maybe that is the only rule they will ever break. Maybe to them they somehow can justify it in their minds. Should it be my onus to sort the "honest" cheaters from the dis-honest ones ? Nope. Sorry. They all decided to jump into the same boat when they crossed that line.

(And to some of the earlier posters...let's not start a debate on whether gold buying is really cheating.
Here is the equation for that. cheating = not following the rules)

Anyway Lonestarrrr (say hello to Princess Vespa for me)...I applaud your approach on wanting to discuss this in terms of how it impacts the game economy, but I think there are just too many variables. I cringe every time I see the "item inflation / deflation" arguement come up when people discuss the ethics of gold farming / buying. You have to make too many assumptions in order to even discuss it.

[Ebium]

The reality is that gold sellers don't appear to impact the economy significantly... maybe slightly at best.

However, as mentioned by several others... gold selling isn't about the economy though... it's about fair game play and it's about malicious practicies that are associated with "gold sellers".

As Elly and others note - Gold sellers don't necessarily rely on "farming", moreover scams, hacks, and cheats. They derive gold from scams such as "present from the argent dawn", and hacks that allowed them to teleport to other areas and farm DM solo. They rely on shady tactics such as hacking into people's accounts, taking gold and items from them and deleting characters.

ALL of these tactics are far more damaging than making slight changes in the economy will ever be. For these reasons, buying gold can NEVER be justified as an "innocent" activity because you can afford the RL money to buy the gold. Buying gold supports shady and unfair behavior and should never been justified or tolerated. If Blizzard didn't crack down on it, it would destroy the game. Literally.


Excellent post.

Gold sellers affect the game economy. Sometimes lowering prices. Sometimes raising prices. Sometimes creating over abundances of items. Doesn't really matter. The game would be better off without them and we should do all we can to get rid of them.

No matter which way you are "sure" that gold sellers affect the economy, it can be looked at as good or bad. 1. The gold sellers lower the prices of items. A. That is good because you can more readily afford to buy those items B. That is bad because when you get those items they are worth less to sell giving you less money to spend.

Gold sellers are bad because:
They are cheating and breaking the rules
They use bots/mods/hacks to do things that are not supposed to be possible
They steal money from real players
They farm "rich" areas ruining them for real players
The only people they benefit are other cheaters who are too lazy to make their own money

I don't care if the prices on my server would double or become half tomorrow if all the farmers/gold sellers were gone. Whatever would happen, it would be an improvement.

[Hoonah]

The economy in WoW is a very complicated environment. Bliz tried to take many different economic models into account when setting up WoW.

Unlimited Pots of Gold - on the "NPC" side there are unaccountable pots of gold. The amount of gold that can be farmed is limited only by ones time. There is no limit. The mobs never run out of a coin drop (and other drops - mostly). Example - In RL economic model if you farmed a camp of BE's eventually they would run out. They wouldn't have time to replenish their coin & drops in reality if continually being farmed. I supposed instead of trying equate a drop vs. reasonable time for a mob to replenish the drop Bliz for simplicity sake said it is one for one (taking into account respawn time). When the BE's aren't in battle (being farmed) they are farming their own loot.

Vendors with bottomless bank accounts - When you sell anything to a vendor you get paid time and time again. In RL you would assume vendors could only pay out what they could take in. As most of us would agree vendors probably take in 5 to 1 what gets purchased from them. For simplicity sake Bliz has said basically (with some minor exceptions) what the vendor takes in (buys) is equal to what they put out (sell) so they always break even. The minor exception here is where the vendor sells limited quantity items per X time period. A minor effect on the vendor economic model.

Auction House (trade channel) - here is where the economic model most equates to RL. Things are bought and sold and the quantity / cost comes into play. Add to this some folks "play" the AH like in RL to make a profit (or take a loss).

So what am I trying to say here in respect to Gold Sellers? In the economic model that Bliz has created for WoW they have very little long term effect on the game. It isn't like in RL if you counterfeit money. In that model you decrease the value of goods and service. If you have gold farmers / botters / exploiters selling their gold (and the gold they get from drops to vendors) and you have gold buyers who take that gold and purchase goods and services (meaning like buying instance runs from others) it does equal out (almost). If Bliz had setup limits on the amount of gold that could be farmed vs. X amount of time or the total amount things could be sold to vendors in X amount of time than yes gold selling would alter the economy to a great extent.

Think of it this way... for all of us non-gold buyers we "farm gold" and use it to buy goods and services. We are 1 unit. For those that farm gold but do not buy goods and services they are .5 units. For those that buy the gold but do no real farming they are .5 units. Together they equal one (yes the farmers have to buy some goods to be able to be able to farm and the buyers most likely do loot some coin drops but this probably equals out as well). On the RL side the same holds. To sell the gold there must be buyers and vice versa. Any unsold gold is idle.

Why shouldn't one sell and buy gold?

It is against the rules. Period. If you want to break the rules go play somewhere else.

In RL I have done financial and economic models for almost 18 years and have multiple degrees in. Is what I presented absolutely correct? No. I have attempted to simplify a complex environment. In no way am I advocating the buying and selling of gold in the real world. It degrades the intent of why someone would want to play WoW.

[kcma]

And as usual the man is completely right again.

That said, Valas summed up my stance pretty accurately. Blizzard says no, then it's no. Blizzard says yes, then it's yes.
Quite simple really.

makes me all warm and fuzzy <3

and looking at the posts following this... i guess ppl can't just agree that they'll always disagree, and i guess they must prove to others that their religion is indeed more right :p

and yeh, i agree with aerath and valas. who cares what i think, it's against bliz's policy and that's all there is to it :)

[Hoonah]

makes me all warm and fuzzy <3

who cares what i think, it's against bliz's policy and that's all there is to it :)


Oh come now we all know you are the worst. You create gold from nothing and destroy entire civilizations in the process <3 :tongue:

[rgirty]

What are people using gold for nowdays? Enchants? mounts?

I rarely keep more than 500-1k gold as I can't find any use for it other than repairs and consumables.

All the good gear is crafted, or bop.. i can see buying mats for crafted items but they aren't hard to get normally.

Just kinda lost on having 10-20k in your bank, no reason for it it does not seem.

[kcma]

Oh come now we all know you are the worst. You create gold from nothing and destroy entire civilizations in the process <3 :tongue:

i dont destroy civilization :p i sustain it and keep it going :) be more thankful!

[Hoonah]

i dont destroy civilization :p i sustain it and keep it going :) be more thankful!

:grin: I am. Sustaining is sooo much less dramatic than destroying :wink:

[Valas Azuviir]

finally, i know that gold buying and selling is against the rules. but i don't think that fact should mean that we can't discuss what effect it's having on the economy, it's an interesting discussion imo.

...and some of us just enjoy contemplating the if's!

I think you misunderstood what I and probably Aerath meant.
You're free to discuss this as much as you want, but what some folks tend to forget in these types of discussions is that at the end of the day, it is Blizzard who sets the rules. If, they say we don't want this, because we think that it disrupts the economy in a way that we deem unacceptable.

Well, they're the ones with all the server data, they are in a far better position, than we are to properly judge the situation. We can make estimations and guesses as to the outcome, but we don't have hard numbers to back those estimations and guesses up. They do.

Makes it a bit pointless to argue from the side that Blizzard is wrong and that it is completely harmless etc etc yada yada, which is what some folks do.

Plus, it is already pointless to make that argument anyway, precisely because it's their ball and if they want to take it home with them, then they're fully entitled to do so.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

It really is amazing to see what people are willing to do to make a quick buck. Honestly, how often do you see someone say no to something, but then turn around and say yes when the "pot is sweetened" with money? Gold sellers are after money, plain and simple. Ignoring what they are actually selling, just looking at what they are doing -- they are selling a commodity to make money. Money is an extraordinary motivator, and being able to make more money is far more motivation to go "above and beyond" in things. That is, more or less, a basic precept of capitalism, and it isn't necessarily a bad thing in most situations.

The problem is, however, as Valas has explained, the commodity being sold is not actually owned by the seller. Gold sellers (and powerleveling services) are pulling a con game, which is no better than the guy trying to sell you the Golden Gate Bridge; no more legal either. The gold sellers are selling people something they actually do not own nor have the rights nor permissions to sell. Only Blizzard has that right, and Blizzard isn't offering it.

What does this do to the economy in a server? Well, the powerful motivator for making real-world cash will result in a push to using any means necessary to get more gold quicker, more efficiently, and at a lower cost to the seller (raising the profit margin). This often includes a lot of methods that are defined as flat-out-cheating, exploiting either the game mechanics, or even unsuspecting players to boot. Every gold seller doesn't necessarily do this -- unfortunately the ones who do outnumber (by a great margin) the ones who don't. And, you can never really tell which you are dealing with.

In the end, Blizzard has said that gold selling/gold buying is a violation of their rules. Blizzard has defined a number of things as violations of their rules. They have the servers,the logs, and all of that other quantifiable data nobody else does about what's going on on the servers, and I'd lay good money that they keep a fairly impressive log of activities they have defined as "qestionable" at the very least. You break the rules, they most likely have a pretty clear collection of data on you and what you did to be able to determine that yes, you did cheat, and then they ban you.

Every single person I've heard, read, or whatever who claims to be "totally innocent" and was "unjustly banned" from WoW, where that was a legitimate complaint, got their accounts fully restored (many with time credited to their accounts even, for the time they were locked from the account access, making the time they couldn't play WoW not count against their monthly fees). Otherwise, there's something that the person did which violated the rules. Even when that person claims that it isn't so. I've heard and read all kinds of justifications for things... but in the end, it was cheating, they were caught, they were banned.

[kcma]

well if u wanna compare gold gate bridge... is more like your neighbor gave u a chicken which he retain the rights to. and then u sold the eggs :p i think.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

well if u wanna compare gold gate bridge... is more like your neighbor gave u a chicken which he retain the rights to. and then u sold the eggs :p i think.

More like your neighbor showed you the chicken which he retains the rights to. And then you sold the eggs.

I hate to break it to folks, but 99.9% of the time, when you "buy" software, you don't actually own that software. You simply are buying a license to use the software. It is one of the biggest reasons that the whole "Free/Libre Open Source Software" (FLOSS) movement started -- because the end-user didn't actually have any rights to what he or she had purchased. The whole premise of the FLOSS movement is that the purchaser has the freedom to do what he or she wants with the software, with very minimal restrictions (typically, giving credit where it is due and any derivative work must also be placed under the same or similar license).

So, buying the box for WoW doesn't mean you own the software to WoW. You own a pretty box, some cellophane, a manual, and some plastic made into a CD and its case. The actual software on it, you are effectively leasing from Blizzard to use. I can't seem to find the cases off-hand, but there have been multiple court cases in a few countries which have upheld that an EULA for software is treated as a binding contract, and falls under contract laws. Breaking the EULA is a breach of contract, and as such, Blizzard can terminate an account based on it. One of the terms they have specified, rather clearly, is gold selling & buying. Participating in that is a breach of contract, and can result in permanent bans. Blizzard is not required to explain to the person who was banned why they were banned. They do potentially need to provide proof of a breach of contract if taken to court, so if they ban you permanently for this, you can bet good money they have proof to back their claims.

Besides, randomly banning people for no good reason makes little sense if they are attempting to increase their profit margin (like any business does). Mistakes happen, but they can be resolved in not too much time.

[kcma]

well music becomes less and less yours everyday too :p same with movies that you thought you've bought.

[gmedina]

I think you misunderstood what I and probably Aerath meant.
You're free to discuss this as much as you want, but what some folks tend to forget in these types of discussions is that at the end of the day, it is Blizzard who sets the rules. If, they say we don't want this, because we think that it disrupts the economy in a way that we deem unacceptable.

Well, they're the ones with all the server data, they are in a far better position, than we are to properly judge the situation. We can make estimations and guesses as to the outcome, but we don't have hard numbers to back those estimations and guesses up. They do.

Makes it a bit pointless to argue from the side that Blizzard is wrong and that it is completely harmless etc etc yada yada, which is what some folks do.

Plus, it is already pointless to make that argument anyway, precisely because it's their ball and if they want to take it home with them, then they're fully entitled to do so.

Well then obviously they must be right!!! They have the data and of course must have our best interestes at heart when making all of these decisions. This is like the argument that is made for allowing government to make all the decions since they have the relevant data and are in the best position to do so. The problem with this thought is that you are attributing the best possible attribuites of humanity to the employees of blizzard. 1) that they actually looked at this data to determine the correct answer and not blindly following guidlines set in place by some arbitrary committee. 2) that the decisions they make are made with our best interests at heart. Neither one of this is likely to be true so us questioning the reasons may lead to them actually doing option 1.

P.S. I want you to know i say this with the utmost respect and humility to a person of your stature. (a.k.a pls don't ban me for making u look bad:grin: :grin: :grin: )

[mesonm]

What are people using gold for nowdays? Enchants? mounts?

I rarely keep more than 500-1k gold as I can't find any use for it other than repairs and consumables.

All the good gear is crafted, or bop.. i can see buying mats for crafted items but they aren't hard to get normally.

Just kinda lost on having 10-20k in your bank, no reason for it it does not seem.

Well, I got to 5200g over the weekend, and bought my epic flying mount...Now, I'm back to 300g, and have nothing much to buy, so I am either giving it to my son, or perhaps buying things for friends...

Mining ROCKS! <pun intended>

[PTiger]

Well then obviously they must be right!!! They have the data and of course must have our best interestes at heart when making all of these decisions. This is like the argument that is made for allowing government to make all the decions since they have the relevant data and are in the best position to do so. The problem with this thought is that you are attributing the best possible attribuites of humanity to the employees of blizzard. 1) that they actually looked at this data to determine the correct answer and not blindly following guidlines set in place by some arbitrary committee. 2) that the decisions they make are made with our best interests at heart. Neither one of this is likely to be true so us questioning the reasons may lead to them actually doing option 1.

P.S. I want you to know i say this with the utmost respect and humility to a person of your stature. (a.k.a pls don't ban me for making u look bad:grin: :grin: :grin: )

Great post, I completely agree.

See the problem with your thinking Valas (and others who say that Blizzard says it's bad therefore not topic worthy), is that because Blizzard has these rules in place, they are then able to remove the problem and therefore have it NOT have an impact on the economy. This is simply untrue. Despite Blizzards best and ongoing efforts to rid hundreds of servers of thousands of cheaters/hackers/farmers/etc., many get by the filters.

So we are left to figure out that if cheaters/hackers/farmers/etc. do in fact exist, what impact do they have on the economy? By better understanding gold sellers effect on the economy, I can adjust my own game to better compensate for them. That's what this thread is about.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Well then obviously they must be right!!! They have the data and of course must have our best interestes at heart when making all of these decisions. This is like the argument that is made for allowing government to make all the decions since they have the relevant data and are in the best position to do so. The problem with this thought is that you are attributing the best possible attribuites of humanity to the employees of blizzard. 1) that they actually looked at this data to determine the correct answer and not blindly following guidlines set in place by some arbitrary committee. 2) that the decisions they make are made with our best interests at heart. Neither one of this is likely to be true so us questioning the reasons may lead to them actually doing option 1.

P.S. I want you to know i say this with the utmost respect and humility to a person of your stature. (a.k.a pls don't ban me for making u look bad:grin: :grin: :grin: )

First off, it isn't that they have "your best interests at heart" necessarily. It is that a company is designed to be able to cover it's own respective butt i situations like this. They *have* data -- and a lot of it. They are able to easily look through it and determine a great many things that we can only speculate. Sometimes there are "false positives" that arise and mistakes happen -- but those are typically resolved in short order (like, for instance, the number of Linux players who got banned because their system detected the Wine system that provides the windows API layer for Linux as a third-party application altering WoW).

I am not attributing the best qualities to Blizzard's employees. In fact, I've been clearly stating that mistakes can, and do happen. HOWEVER, from a legal standpoint, Blizzard does have a set of rules and guidelines in place to protect itself as an entity -- especially when it comes to banning accounts. Banning accounts are done on the basis of the terms of a breach of contract -- the contract between Blizzard and its customers who play World of Warcraft. The contract that legally, they must provide for the players to see and accept in order to play the game. That would be the ToU & EULA. Blizzard, as a company, will protect its interests (that is, people who work at Blizzard will protect the interests of Blizzard). It is not necessarily that they have your best interests at heart.

Great post, I completely agree.

See the problem with your thinking Valas (and others who say that Blizzard says it's bad therefore not topic worthy), is that because Blizzard has these rules in place, they are then able to remove the problem and therefore have it NOT have an impact on the economy. This is simply untrue. Despite Blizzards best and ongoing efforts to rid hundreds of servers of thousands of cheaters/hackers/farmers/etc., many get by the filters.

Just because there are those who are able to get by the defenses that are constantly being built, that doesn't mean that you should stop developing new defenses, nor should you remove the existing ones completely. Some of Blizzard's defenses work in some cases, others in other cases.

So we are left to figure out that if cheaters/hackers/farmers/etc. do in fact exist, what impact do they have on the economy? By better understanding gold sellers effect on the economy, I can adjust my own game to better compensate for them. That's what this thread is about.

What impact do they have on the in-game economy? That really is quite simple. When you add the element of real-world value to items or even a currency exchange rate between in-game gold and real-world currencies, that produces a very high motivation for people to be able to make real-world money -- by any means necessary. To claim otherwise is honestly quite naive. By any means necessary, this means that the individuals will, at the very least, do what people who don't heat do -- grind away to get items and sell them on the AH or to vendors (or whatever) to acquire gold -- all while having actual personal interaction with the characters.

Unfortunately, once again, this is a naive approach to the problem, because that is just not cost-effective. More cost-effective is to figure out how to have one person manage multiple accounts, while keeping the gold income for each account at as high a rate as possible. A single person two-boxing accounts takes a certain impact on the overall effectiveness of each character -- dividing his or her attention between multiple characters obviously impacts how much each character will be able to rake in -- a variable amount for each player -- some are more capable of multi-tasking than others -- but that is not a very intelligent or effective business strategy.

An even more effective strategy, one more guaranteed to work would be to develop automation systems to handle tasks for each character -- then individual players could manage/monitor multiple accounts without as much of a loss (if any loss) in the effectiveness of each character. This is "botting". Sort of along the lines of how at most supermarkets (or department stores, other stores in general) have "self-checkout" lines. There is a single operator who handles a dozen or so registers -- far more cost effective than a cashier for each line. The more automated the characters, the fewer actual people you need to actually maintain the accounts -- the fewer paychecks you need to pay, the lower your overhead, the higher your profits. And remember, higher profits are what is focused on here.

Now, Blizzard has a mechanic in place to help identify these "botted" characters. They find the accounts, they ban the accounts. So, this becomes added to the overhead costs of gold selling -- handled through increasing the prices of the gold -- to cover the costs of needing to buy new accounts from Blizzard all the time. A strategy to help reduce that would be to trick unsuspecting, and naive people out of their accounts, gaining access to these accounts and using them to make a profit -- doing this reduces the cost of doing business, plus by offering "powerlevelling services" to these unsuspecting players, you even get them to pay you for the privilege of you using their accounts to make yourself more money. A win-win situation all around.

Now, what does this do to the economy? An injection of multiple characters added to a server strictly focusing on making as much money as possible -- many more than would be typially found on these servers -- with the gold sellers having no problem having potentially hundreds of accounts under the watchful care of a single individual or handful of individuals. So, rather than just one to ten characters on the server making money/items in-game, you have, let's say 20 to 100 characters (conservative guess) doing that. This increases the rate of gold and items coming into the server economy, which increases the rate which the server's gold is devalued (something colloquialised as "mudflation", due to the rampant, uncontrolled amount of in-game inflation that was first noted in the MUD systems that predated MMOs).

Laws of supply and demand will state that more gold per item on a server will make that gold be valued less. Now, there also is an increase in the number of items that are on the server, and this does impact it in the other direction -- more items on a server per gold piece makes the gold gain value. However, there is typically a larger amount of gold that appears in a server economy rather than items -- if simply because of the pervasiveness of soulbound items -- items that eventually typically end up sold to vendors for a little money, and the items are taken out of the economy permanently -- sure, a certain percentage end up getting "recycled" into enchanting components, but then those components are used and taken out of the economy as well. There is less things that take the gold out of the economy than takes items out of the economy. The result is that gold increases at a rate faster than the items that are produced.

The ratio of gold per item in a server economy then can be used as a measure of the rate of inflation within a server. Over time, the amount of gold increases at a higher rate than the amount of items. As time increases infinitely, the problem is that the rate of inflation becomes infinite as well. This isn't something specific to the gold sellers directly, more to the nature of the game. However, the gold sellers, by their need for higher profit margins end up accelerating this process by having an inordinate amount of accounts made on a server with the express purpose of making gold -- accounts typically managed through bot/automation systems with multiple accounts managed by a single individual. A mechanic that your typical WoW player will not use.

In the end, yes, the gold sellers very obviously do impact server economies. They affect the in-game dynamics, all due to the basic nature of greed for real-world money. Blizzard, once again, is well within their rights to do whatever they can to prevent and stop this from happening -- they have defined the typical techniques that gold-sellers use as cheating, and that gold-selling is strictly forbidden anyway.

[gmedina]

First off, it isn't that they have "your best interests at heart" necessarily. It is that a company is designed to be able to cover it's own respective butt i situations like this. They *have* data -- and a lot of it. They are able to easily look through it and determine a great many things that we can only speculate. Sometimes there are "false positives" that arise and mistakes happen -- but those are typically resolved in short order (like, for instance, the number of Linux players who got banned because their system detected the Wine system that provides the windows API layer for Linux as a third-party application altering WoW).

I am not attributing the best qualities to Blizzard's employees. In fact, I've been clearly stating that mistakes can, and do happen. HOWEVER, from a legal standpoint, Blizzard does have a set of rules and guidelines in place to protect itself as an entity -- especially when it comes to banning accounts. Banning accounts are done on the basis of the terms of a breach of contract -- the contract between Blizzard and its customers who play World of Warcraft. The contract that legally, they must provide for the players to see and accept in order to play the game. That would be the ToU & EULA. Blizzard, as a company, will protect its interests (that is, people who work at Blizzard will protect the interests of Blizzard). It is not necessarily that they have your best interests at heart.



Just because there are those who are able to get by the defenses that are constantly being built, that doesn't mean that you should stop developing new defenses, nor should you remove the existing ones completely. Some of Blizzard's defenses work in some cases, others in other cases.



What impact do they have on the in-game economy? That really is quite simple. When you add the element of real-world value to items or even a currency exchange rate between in-game gold and real-world currencies, that produces a very high motivation for people to be able to make real-world money -- by any means necessary. To claim otherwise is honestly quite naive. By any means necessary, this means that the individuals will, at the very least, do what people who don't heat do -- grind away to get items and sell them on the AH or to vendors (or whatever) to acquire gold -- all while having actual personal interaction with the characters.

Unfortunately, once again, this is a naive approach to the problem, because that is just not cost-effective. More cost-effective is to figure out how to have one person manage multiple accounts, while keeping the gold income for each account at as high a rate as possible. A single person two-boxing accounts takes a certain impact on the overall effectiveness of each character -- dividing his or her attention between multiple characters obviously impacts how much each character will be able to rake in -- a variable amount for each player -- some are more capable of multi-tasking than others -- but that is not a very intelligent or effective business strategy.

An even more effective strategy, one more guaranteed to work would be to develop automation systems to handle tasks for each character -- then individual players could manage/monitor multiple accounts without as much of a loss (if any loss) in the effectiveness of each character. This is "botting". Sort of along the lines of how at most supermarkets (or department stores, other stores in general) have "self-checkout" lines. There is a single operator who handles a dozen or so registers -- far more cost effective than a cashier for each line. The more automated the characters, the fewer actual people you need to actually maintain the accounts -- the fewer paychecks you need to pay, the lower your overhead, the higher your profits. And remember, higher profits are what is focused on here.

Now, Blizzard has a mechanic in place to help identify these "botted" characters. They find the accounts, they ban the accounts. So, this becomes added to the overhead costs of gold selling -- handled through increasing the prices of the gold -- to cover the costs of needing to buy new accounts from Blizzard all the time. A strategy to help reduce that would be to trick unsuspecting, and naive people out of their accounts, gaining access to these accounts and using them to make a profit -- doing this reduces the cost of doing business, plus by offering "powerlevelling services" to these unsuspecting players, you even get them to pay you for the privilege of you using their accounts to make yourself more money. A win-win situation all around.

Now, what does this do to the economy? An injection of multiple characters added to a server strictly focusing on making as much money as possible -- many more than would be typially found on these servers -- with the gold sellers having no problem having potentially hundreds of accounts under the watchful care of a single individual or handful of individuals. So, rather than just one to ten characters on the server making money/items in-game, you have, let's say 20 to 100 characters (conservative guess) doing that. This increases the rate of gold and items coming into the server economy, which increases the rate which the server's gold is devalued (something colloquialised as "mudflation", due to the rampant, uncontrolled amount of in-game inflation that was first noted in the MUD systems that predated MMOs).

Laws of supply and demand will state that more gold per item on a server will make that gold be valued less. Now, there also is an increase in the number of items that are on the server, and this does impact it in the other direction -- more items on a server per gold piece makes the gold gain value. However, there is typically a larger amount of gold that appears in a server economy rather than items -- if simply because of the pervasiveness of soulbound items -- items that eventually typically end up sold to vendors for a little money, and the items are taken out of the economy permanently -- sure, a certain percentage end up getting "recycled" into enchanting components, but then those components are used and taken out of the economy as well. There is less things that take the gold out of the economy than takes items out of the economy. The result is that gold increases at a rate faster than the items that are produced.

The ratio of gold per item in a server economy then can be used as a measure of the rate of inflation within a server. Over time, the amount of gold increases at a higher rate than the amount of items. As time increases infinitely, the problem is that the rate of inflation becomes infinite as well. This isn't something specific to the gold sellers directly, more to the nature of the game. However, the gold sellers, by their need for higher profit margins end up accelerating this process by having an inordinate amount of accounts made on a server with the express purpose of making gold -- accounts typically managed through bot/automation systems with multiple accounts managed by a single individual. A mechanic that your typical WoW player will not use.

In the end, yes, the gold sellers very obviously do impact server economies. They affect the in-game dynamics, all due to the basic nature of greed for real-world money. Blizzard, once again, is well within their rights to do whatever they can to prevent and stop this from happening -- they have defined the typical techniques that gold-sellers use as cheating, and that gold-selling is strictly forbidden anyway.


Wow that is very well written and thought out THEORY!!! That could be a possible scenario, the other possible scenario is that the number of items actually posted in the AH for sale have a greater force in the opposing direction.

In regards to the motivation of money to make ppl hack accounts. Let see here, what you stated in other words is that as ppl have opportunity to make money they will become completly unscrupulous and do anything necessary to get said money. They will have no regard for social and community norms and suddenly by the magic of GREED they become monsters and start to rob law abiding citizens!!!! If that were true since we all work to make money, we would all realize that the most efficient way to make money would be to be a bank robber or hacker or general hooligan to steal money. *looks around, wonders am i being hacked*. Or maybe these ppl run a business that deals in honesty and they make their gold the correct way by grininding and only sell what they make. Of course if that were true it would destroy the logic behind ur reasoning so, it must be wrong. Ergo all mechanics are cheaters and car salesman are liers. Wow this just makes me feel pranoid anyone else starting to look over their shoulders???? Odds are that some of the ppl who are in this business will flow the pass to dishonesty just like any other business but that most are just regular businessmen/women.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Wow that is very well written and thought out THEORY!!! That could be a possible scenario, the other possible scenario is that the number of items actually posted in the AH for sale have a greater force in the opposing direction.

The problem is, no matter how you configure the items, there always will be a greater influx of gold into the server economy than items -- plain and simple. Vendor trash, gold drops, quest rewards, and sold off soulbound items all contribute to the increase in the amount of gold. There isn't as much that contributes to the amount of items. Since the rate of gold increase is greater than the rate of increase of the number of items, there will be an inflation, and gold will devalue -- items will end up being worth an increasing amount of gold on the server. The whole nature of an MMO economy like WoW's requires this concept -- otherwise everyone will just go broke. The gold literally comes from nowhere (there is no smelting gold coins, there is no finite sum of gold coins in the server), and then in the "money sinks" it disappears just as quickly. Items do this similarly. However, in the end, the rate at which the total amount of gold on a server increases, is in fact greater than the rate at which the total of items increase. Over time, the gold will devalue. The gold sellers are accelerating the process by making a greater number of characters, and thus a greater rate which the gold (and the items, but once again, the gold surpasses the items) is on the server.

Or are you honestly going to say that the amount of items on the server actually increases at a faster rate than the amount of gold? If you want, I can start to go into extreme details on the mathematics behind the basic principals for this. I went very loosely over them in my previous post.

If we follow through with your thought on this, if the rate which items increased on the server was greater than the gold on the server, things would be getting extremely cheap on the AH. Eventually, the AH would no longer be used. Heck, everyone would more or less go broke. If the increases were equal, the problem would be that people would just have enough money to upgrade to appropriate level items -- and no more. The fact of the matter is there's enough gold on the server to have the prices of things steadily increase over time. This means there's more gold available -- people are willing to pay more for things, because they have more to pay with. That's called the Law of Supply and Demand.

In regards to the motivation of money to make ppl hack accounts. Let see here, what you stated in other words is that as ppl have opportunity to make money they will become completly unscrupulous and do anything necessary to get said money. They will have no regard for social and community norms and suddenly by the magic of GREED they become monsters and start to rob law abiding citizens!!!! If that were true since we all work to make money, we would all realize that the most efficient way to make money would be to be a bank robber or hacker or general hooligan to steal money. *looks around, wonders am i being hacked*. Or maybe these ppl run a business that deals in honesty and they make their gold the correct way by grininding and only sell what they make. Of course if that were true it would destroy the logic behind ur reasoning so, it must be wrong. Ergo all mechanics are cheaters and car salesman are liers. Wow this just makes me feel pranoid anyone else starting to look over their shoulders???? Odds are that some of the ppl who are in this business will flow the pass to dishonesty just like any other business but that most are just regular businessmen/women.

Actually, no. The gold-sellers are akin to black marketeers -- they do not have the authority to sell anything in WoW -- only Blizzard does, and they refuse to sell in-game items for real money. They are con artists -- they con people out of their money for the claim that they had the authority to sell it. It would be much like if we both went to Best Buy, and I sold you one of the computers they had there. I had you pay me, and you walked out of the store with it. The problem is, I am not employed by Best Buy, nor do I have any authority to sell you the computer. We both effectively are stealing. Now, the analogy isn't perfect (because you can't really take anything "out of the store", that is, out of the servers in WoW), but it is close enough.

I'm not saying that the gold sellers are magically transformed by greed. I'm saying that they are completely motivated by greed -- they already are exploiting people and taking advantage of them. People using goldselling services and/or powerleveling services are simply put, getting duped. They are paying someone who doesn't own what is being sold real-world money -- any more than if I had sold you that computer in BestBuy actually owned (or was authorized to sell) that computer.

The gold sellers and power-leveling services are already violating contract law. They already are breaking the license agreements and terms of use. They are duping people into breaking the rules as well and violating their own contracts. By providing these "services", they already have defined themselves in terms of the amount of greed they have. These "services" are attempts at get-rich-quick schemes, and are at best quasi-legal in nature, but in all actuality, they are in fact illegal (civil law).

[kcma]

more gold keeps the economy moving even if inflated. no gold kills the market. i'm all for more gold.

that said, what valas said is right. if you enter his house you obey his rule. clear and simple. sure gold farmers slip by, but it doesnt mean they should. and if you buy gold, it's a choice you made. i personally dont have anything against it, but don't whine and cry when you're banned :)

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

more gold keeps the economy moving even if inflated. no gold kills the market. i'm all for more gold.

True, but too much gold will make the market harder to deal with too. The money sinks that Blizzard put in place are designed to help limit just how much the rate of gold increase over time really is for the server. The increase is unavoidable, but Blizz finds ways to handle it so the server economies don't go out of control. However, the system works best if everyone plays fair.

that said, what valas said is right. if you enter his house you obey his rule. clear and simple. sure gold farmers slip by, but it doesnt mean they should. and if you buy gold, it's a choice you made. i personally dont have anything against it, but don't whine and cry when you're banned :)

That really is the cut and dry of it. Blizz's house, Blizz's rules; break the rules then don't get upset when you get thrown out of the house.

[Hoonah]

True, but too much gold will make the market harder to deal with too. The money sinks that Blizzard put in place are designed to help limit just how much the rate of gold increase over time really is for the server. The increase is unavoidable, but Blizz finds ways to handle it so the server economies don't go out of control. However, the system works best if everyone plays fair
.

Going to just quote this one section but my hat is off to your posts Xlorep well done & said. As a former prof used to say show me the most sound macro economic model and I can poke holes threw it with micro economic models.

I still contend going over my thoughts that the gold farmers aren't that much of an impact over the macro effect with a longer term. The theory of equalization will come into play after the intial effect is realized. Over the year I have also noted (not directly) that the price of the gold in RL dollars has decreased. I would guess through compitition vs. volume increases. If this is so than the cost of their product has gone up (considering their fixed costs would remain unchanged).

Ironically the largest single event that had a huge economic impact on the AH was go live of TBC (Outlands) by my observations.

Yes the ultimate point here gold buying and selling is against the rules and it does in some manner effect game play for others on some level.

Just wanted to say how articulate and focused your posts were - well said.

[kcma]

supply and demand wont change, as long as there are things and gold to flow around. inflation in WOW unlike RL isn't that big of a problem. it trickles down to everyone and everyone because equally rich. ppl who had 500g now has 2000g, and ppl who used to have 50g now have 200g. purchasing power remain the same.

the biggest impact on gold in wow is before TBC right when all the gold farmers are simultaneously and spontaneously banned. that with the addition of incoming TBC completely killed off all economy for a couple months...

[ferofax]

...with the gold sellers significant population, im not surprised if the economy went haywire when they got sent to the slammer.

[Rowscarde]

errr nice to know you nacy.

[Daidoji Sagara]

More precisecely, nice to HAVE KNOWN you.

Report. I see a Nerfbat flying this way...

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

supply and demand wont change, as long as there are things and gold to flow around. inflation in WOW unlike RL isn't that big of a problem. it trickles down to everyone and everyone because equally rich. ppl who had 500g now has 2000g, and ppl who used to have 50g now have 200g. purchasing power remain the same.

I'm going to have to disagree. It doesn't necessarily have as great an impact to those who have been on the server for a length of time and adjusted to the inflation accordingly. However to people new to the server, the higher prices of things at the Auction House makes it much less accessible.

I could also go the approach to show that gold sellers do make a noticeable impact on the servers, as the rates which Gold is generated and removed from the servers gets knocked out of order when you have a large influx of characters bypassing a number of the money sinks that are in place to remove gold from server. For instance, most farmer-bots tend to wear greens (or less if they can help it), and attack creatures lower level than them, to minimize repair costs. Most do not have mounts at all (mounts would be effectively a waste of money for their purposes) -- anything to reduce the amount of gold being destroyed in money sinks, so they have a larger amount of gold available to sell to people. Then add in the fact that many are operating round-the-clock, reaping in a good amount of gold more than your average player would, the results are that the gold seller characters tend to rapidly exaggerate the inflation rates of the server. And, the more of these characters there are on the server, the more the inflation rate is exaggerated. Fortunately, Blizzard also tends to destroy a lot of the gold that a gold-seller character makes when they track these things down.

the biggest impact on gold in wow is before TBC right when all the gold farmers are simultaneously and spontaneously banned. that with the addition of incoming TBC completely killed off all economy for a couple months...

[LunarSolaris]

Another negative impact from gold selling on the game... (as already mentioned I imagine)...

When gold selling is tolerated in the game, more people try to sell it. I get really frustrated with the advertisements for gold selling that occur even now... whispers in the middle of an instance... gold selling spams... "Argent Dawn" scams, etc. All of these things ruin my gaming experience... and I imagine for many others.

So... I think it's a pretty hard sell to try and say gold selling is "harmless".

[gmedina]

The problem is, no matter how you configure the items, there always will be a greater influx of gold into the server economy than items -- plain and simple. Vendor trash, gold drops, quest rewards, and sold off soulbound items all contribute to the increase in the amount of gold. There isn't as much that contributes to the amount of items. Since the rate of gold increase is greater than the rate of increase of the number of items, there will be an inflation, and gold will devalue -- items will end up being worth an increasing amount of gold on the server. The whole nature of an MMO economy like WoW's requires this concept -- otherwise everyone will just go broke. The gold literally comes from nowhere (there is no smelting gold coins, there is no finite sum of gold coins in the server), and then in the "money sinks" it disappears just as quickly. Items do this similarly. However, in the end, the rate at which the total amount of gold on a server increases, is in fact greater than the rate at which the total of items increase. Over time, the gold will devalue. The gold sellers are accelerating the process by making a greater number of characters, and thus a greater rate which the gold (and the items, but once again, the gold surpasses the items) is on the server.

Or are you honestly going to say that the amount of items on the server actually increases at a faster rate than the amount of gold? If you want, I can start to go into extreme details on the mathematics behind the basic principals for this. I went very loosely over them in my previous post.

If we follow through with your thought on this, if the rate which items increased on the server was greater than the gold on the server, things would be getting extremely cheap on the AH. Eventually, the AH would no longer be used. Heck, everyone would more or less go broke. If the increases were equal, the problem would be that people would just have enough money to upgrade to appropriate level items -- and no more. The fact of the matter is there's enough gold on the server to have the prices of things steadily increase over time. This means there's more gold available -- people are willing to pay more for things, because they have more to pay with. That's called the Law of Supply and Demand.



Actually, no. The gold-sellers are akin to black marketeers -- they do not have the authority to sell anything in WoW -- only Blizzard does, and they refuse to sell in-game items for real money. They are con artists -- they con people out of their money for the claim that they had the authority to sell it. It would be much like if we both went to Best Buy, and I sold you one of the computers they had there. I had you pay me, and you walked out of the store with it. The problem is, I am not employed by Best Buy, nor do I have any authority to sell you the computer. We both effectively are stealing. Now, the analogy isn't perfect (because you can't really take anything "out of the store", that is, out of the servers in WoW), but it is close enough.

I'm not saying that the gold sellers are magically transformed by greed. I'm saying that they are completely motivated by greed -- they already are exploiting people and taking advantage of them. People using goldselling services and/or powerleveling services are simply put, getting duped. They are paying someone who doesn't own what is being sold real-world money -- any more than if I had sold you that computer in BestBuy actually owned (or was authorized to sell) that computer.

The gold sellers and power-leveling services are already violating contract law. They already are breaking the license agreements and terms of use. They are duping people into breaking the rules as well and violating their own contracts. By providing these "services", they already have defined themselves in terms of the amount of greed they have. These "services" are attempts at get-rich-quick schemes, and are at best quasi-legal in nature, but in all actuality, they are in fact illegal (civil law).

Actually that is what i'm saying. If im questing or doing instances i will usually get 5 to 6 grn items in a 2 or 3 hour period. I will also make appx 60-70g in that same time period. Goes up or down depending on my luck, i would approximate that the value of the grn items i get is close to the amount of money i make in that time period. This dosen't count the lucky purp and blue i get from time to time. So yes i would say that they equal themselves out. While the gold coming in is indefinate as you so clearly state so is the number of items coming in. So its a wash.

[Altaris]

Actually that is what i'm saying. If im questing or doing instances i will usually get 5 to 6 grn items in a 2 or 3 hour period. I will also make appx 60-70g in that same time period. Goes up or down depending on my luck, i would approximate that the value of the grn items i get is close to the amount of money i make in that time period. This dosen't count the lucky purp and blue i get from time to time. So yes i would say that they equal themselves out. While the gold coming in is indefinate as you so clearly state so is the number of items coming in. So its a wash.

It's not a wash. Gold comes in much faster that are really worth spending money on. Your statement assumes that gold sellers AH or /trade their items.

I think it has been shown by others that the chances are greatly in favor of gold sellers vendoring all of their items.

[Valas Azuviir]

Well then obviously they must be right!!! They have the data and of course must have our best interestes at heart when making all of these decisions. This is like the argument that is made for allowing government to make all the decions since they have the relevant data and are in the best position to do so. The problem with this thought is that you are attributing the best possible attribuites of humanity to the employees of blizzard. 1) that they actually looked at this data to determine the correct answer and not blindly following guidlines set in place by some arbitrary committee. 2) that the decisions they make are made with our best interests at heart. Neither one of this is likely to be true so us questioning the reasons may lead to them actually doing option 1.

P.S. I want you to know i say this with the utmost respect and humility to a person of your stature. (a.k.a pls don't ban me for making u look bad:grin: :grin: :grin: )

Strawman argument.
You cannot compare a single company with a goverment.
One of the major problems for a goverment is trying to find the relevant information in all the information they acquire and even then, they may not have all the puzzle pieces. Add interdepartmental infighting and you end up with something like the FBI-CIA-NSA 9-11 issue.

Add to that the political element and you get one very very big headache.

And as Xlorep pointed out, they're acting in their own best interest. They don't want goldsellers in their game. And a number of us, happen to agree with that sentiment, due to the "noise" pollution caused by said individuals, next to several other reasons, which have been written down on these boards on numerous occasions.

As for your point 1. :rolleyes:
If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, feels like a duck and tastes like a duck. Sure, it might be a platypus, but quite frankly I don't care a great deal either way. Sure, with some I can sympathize, with others I can't. Why? Don't know them. All, I see is them making their first post here and starting this whole dog and pony show and wanting our help boycotting the great and evil empire that is Blizzard.

Uhm.. I don't know you kid, how about you first become a regular contributing member of our community, so I can get a sense of whether or not the ban was justified or not. Until that time, it's a question on who has more credibility, someone I don't know, or a company I've had dealings with and thus have enough data on the latter to be able to paint a mental picture as to the how's and why's of their actions. Sure mistakes can happen, but from my experience on this board, most (not all, but most) of these folks have been up to something.

Sometimes, it's caused by ignorance (least that can be cured). Sometimes it's caused by apathy (not much can be done about that one). Sometimes, it's caused by lazyness (not much can be done about that one either). But there's always a reason (even if an incorrect one).

As for the but goldsellers get by the filters issue.
Let's say I own an appartment building, I set up a no pets allowed rule in the lease agreement to the apartments. Now, you've had rats as pets, you think they're nifty, not dirty etc etc. Doesn't matter. No pets allowed.

The fact that other rats manage to get into the property, despite my best efforts, does not mean you gain the right to feed the rats. The no pets clause is still in effect. As for the intruding rats, they are vermin that need to be exterminated, and just maybe I need to have a talk with or even toss out some of the other tenants, because they're creating an enviroment that's attracting these vermin in the first place.

And quite frankly, I don't want any vermin on my property, period.

That, to me anyway, seems to be Blizzard's stance.
My own??

*Hands Blizzard some additional boxes of rat poison*

:tongue:

[Kinjal]

Now before i get hit let me say im not supporting selling gold, i just had a thought and figured i would ask since it has been driving me crazy trying to figure it out.

Now common knowledge is that if ppl are selling gold it will lead to inflation of prices as a person can go out a buy gold and pay whatever they want for the item. This makes a certain amount of sense, not saying i agree but let's just say i do for arguments sake. So this raises the question as how the gold sellers get the gold, well the answer is the farm for it. While in the process of farming gold they will obviously be getting drops, blue, green, purple, etc so what do they do with these drops? Obviously since they want the gold to sell they will AH them to get gold to sell. This is increasing the supply of items and drops in the AH. Now we all know that increase supply will lower the price.

So here it is, the question of the day. Which is the greater force, the inflationary pressure of selling gold? Or the Deflationary pressure of increased supply in the AH? Or do they wash each other out and basically do nothing?

As i write this another thought pops up, if it is option 1: then banning gold sellers is good, if option 2: would think gold sellers would be good thing no? and lastly if option 3: they don't affect anything so why not leave em alone?

What are your thoughts?


I think it's a matter of how you look at it. I don't let it bother me because I got no problem farming gold and it's very simple for me to do. Gold farmers bringing me tons of items that I need are great, simply because I don't have to be the one farming for them.

If you want to beef your character up then stop complaining because gold farmers make it possible.

If you want to be on a dead server where the only items you will ever get is from your raid group, and none of the world drop blue/epic plans, and recipes things like that will never drop because theres no chinese slaves increasing the drop rate % on your server..

[OneMadOgre]

More rat posion please. :) I like that analogy very much. Is it just me, or does every gold seller supporter seem to have a reverse NIMBY argument going?

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Actually that is what i'm saying. If im questing or doing instances i will usually get 5 to 6 grn items in a 2 or 3 hour period. I will also make appx 60-70g in that same time period. Goes up or down depending on my luck, i would approximate that the value of the grn items i get is close to the amount of money i make in that time period. This dosen't count the lucky purp and blue i get from time to time. So yes i would say that they equal themselves out. While the gold coming in is indefinate as you so clearly state so is the number of items coming in. So its a wash.

Ok, now, let's look at the next angle -- the gold coming into a server, vs the gold coming out from the server. There are a number of ways Gold appears on a server:

Quest rewards
Items sold to vendors
Looted directly from corpses

There are a few ways which gold is removed from the server:

Repeatable money sinks
Repair costs
Purchases of items from vendors
Auction house "cuts"
Auction house deposits
Mail costs
Talent, profession, or pet ability respec costs
Non-repeatable money sinks
Ability costs
Riding skill costs
Profession training
Character deletions/moves

Now, if you have the ratio of the amount of incoming gold, I'll call "Inc", being the gold (and other money) that comes into the server, over the amount of outgoing gold, I'll call "Out", being the gold (and other money) that leaves the server, that would be another definition to use for the rate of gold inflation on the server.

Gold-sellers will minimize the use of money sinks and maximize the use of gold production -- this is simply good business sense. As they will tend to use botting (or sweat-shops or other techniques) to have characters active near continuously for a greater number of hours than a typical player does, let's say a conservative estimate of 2x more than your average player. So, the gold-seller could conceivably be producing up to 2x the average gold that a typical, non-gold-seller character would.

Now, what about the money sinks? Well, scratch out a few of them. Mounts most likely don't really provide enough of a positive to warrant their costs -- so scratch the mount costs from the mix. Purchasing from vendors will be minimalized -- at most: food, drink, ammo. Reagants will be minimalized and not used unless absolutely necessary. Classes that have the least costs will be the most sought with respect to this. Talent/profession/etc. respecs are also removed. Professions aren't necessary, unless possibly a gathering profession which significantly reduces the costs for learning how to make things -- why make things when it is more profitable to just grind and sell the items you find? Ability costs are minimalized to just what is needed for gathering the gold/items. Equipment repairs are minimalized by using green or lesser items to do the actual farming.

Let's say, overall, ignoring the mounts that there is only 1/3 of the money sink costs that these characters use compared to your average player -- once again, very conservative. That means that there is a per-character inflation rate change of 6x more gold being brought into the server than removed from the server per gold seller character on the server.

Then it becomes a matter of percentage of the population on a server that would be a gold-seller. If, let's say, at any time, a server has 3,000 characters operating on it. If there is even 10% of those that are gold sellers (I'm not certain if that's conservative or not), then we're looking at 300 gold sellers active on a server at a time. At a rate of 6x more gold than your average player, these 300 characters are producing the amount of gold equivalent to 1,800 characters. That means that there is effectively the gold input of 4,500 characters active on the server. That means there is 1.5x more gold increasing on the server with the gold sellers active on that server, than there would be otherwise. A 150% jump is a noticeable jump. And these are just with the numbers I was estimating. If there was, let's say, just 100 gold-seller characters active at any time on a server, then there would be the gold input of 600 characters active, which in turn would mean there is equivalent of 3,500 characters' worth of gold being brought in on the server, which would be a 117% increase in the gold on the server. Still, a noticeable difference. The number of gold-seller characters definitely impacts how much gold is on the server, at a rather noticeable rate.

These things don't "equal themselves out" -- there is simply more gold coming into the server than being removed from the server. The items become somewhat inconsequential, unless they directly impact the gold coming in (by selling them to a vendor) or going out (repair costs or auction house costs). Once again, the gold-sellers are negatively impacting the server's economy, accelerating the rate of inflation on the server.

And there is no such thing as a "legitimate" gold-seller. Legitimate would mean they are doing things correctly, legally, etc. They are breaking the contract with Blizzard, selling goods they do not own nor have rights to, and are tricking the purchasers into breaking the contract laws as well. There is no "legitimate" qualities to that at all. If it was legitimate, Blizzard would openly make the sales themselves -- and make a killing at it.

I think it's a matter of how you look at it. I don't let it bother me because I got no problem farming gold and it's very simple for me to do. Gold farmers bringing me tons of items that I need are great, simply because I don't have to be the one farming for them.

If you want to beef your character up then stop complaining because gold farmers make it possible.

If you want to be on a dead server where the only items you will ever get is from your raid group, and none of the world drop blue/epic plans, and recipes things like that will never drop because theres no chinese slaves increasing the drop rate % on your server..

There is a big difference between gold farming and gold selling. Gold selling does use gold farming, but the difference is there is a real-world value attached to it, and it violates Blizzard's rules.

[kcma]

I'm going to have to disagree. It doesn't necessarily have as great an impact to those who have been on the server for a length of time and adjusted to the inflation accordingly. However to people new to the server, the higher prices of things at the Auction House makes it much less accessible.


not true. let's say a person just started to play with at the end of inflation where somethign that used to cost 1g is now 10g.

sure, he can't afford anything. but he'll sell the first few greens he find for 10g which used to be 1g. that brand new person will have the exact same purchasing power he would've if he started before the inflation.

and this specific point i've proven in practice over and over starting on a brand new realm everytime i roll a new char. price overly inflated? just mean i make that first 1k of gold THAT much faster.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

not true. let's say a person just started to play with at the end of inflation where somethign that used to cost 1g is now 10g.

sure, he can't afford anything. but he'll sell the first few greens he find for 10g which used to be 1g. that brand new person will have the exact same purchasing power he would've if he started before the inflation.

and this specific point i've proven in practice over and over starting on a brand new realm everytime i roll a new char. price overly inflated? just mean i make that first 1k of gold THAT much faster.

Interesting point, I concede that argument then. However, Blizzard does explain that gold selling/using cheats, hacks, etc. adversely affects the economy of the server.

[thenamestravis]

As for the people asking why the hackers delete the high level characters:

my thoughts is so the gold sellers have less competition. meh, makes sense to me.

[kcma]

Interesting point, I concede that argument then. However, Blizzard does explain that gold selling/using cheats, hacks, etc. adversely affects the economy of the server.

of course they would say that. just like the government would tell you how evil smoking pot is.

at the end of the day, only 1 argument matters. and it's what Aerath and Valas and WWN says. it's bliz's game, it's bliz's server, it's bliz's rule. live with it or don't play. and that's all there is to it. it has nothing to do with how gold farmer ruins the game, or destroy the economy, or make it impossible for new players to become part of the mainstream. it's simply a rule that they've decided on, and will have the final say :) and this is a perfectly valid argument. you don't have to agree with them, and at the same time, you also dont HAVE to play WOW. wanna play wow? don't buy gold. wanna buy gold? don't whine when you're banned.

now, cheats and hacks are a different story :p that definitely has a very direct impact on player's experiences.

[Justinledwards]

As for the people asking why the hackers delete the high level characters:

So you'll buy their powerleveling services and gold to get a character back to spec on the chance it is not restored? Goes to show how creepy it really is. And from reading some of the articles in the news, the crime is getting very organised.

OMG can you imagine if it was a free-for-all if Blizzard did not put a huge effort into policing this? WoW would have shut down a year ago. All hacks, bots, gold selling... eugh

[kcma]

please, crime? gold selling and power leveling is a business and they keep you coming back by providing good service. it's far more profitable for IGE to provide you exactly what you need and keep you coming back for more than screw you up once and lose your business forever. same in drug deals or prostitution or whatever.

is gold farmer legit? no. obviously against the blizzard TOS. but is IGE reputable and trustworthy? definitely.

[thenamestravis]

What I meant was if they deleted the high level account, that character can not kill high level mobs, leaving more mobs for the gold sellers to kill. maybe?

[kcma]

What I meant was if they deleted the high level account, that character can not kill high level mobs, leaving more mobs for the gold sellers to kill. maybe?

this is the kind of thinking that lead ppl to make up conspiracy theories against organized but possibly not as legit and kosher businesses.

perhaps my example of drug deal and prostitution weren't great and didn't drive the point home... how about casinos? what do you think is smarter? cheat you out of a round or 2 of lil change or play fair and use the odds to keep you coming back?

hacking your account and deleting your character is something fun that lil kids do and i wouldnt relate them to gold farmers like IGE.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

at the end of the day, only 1 argument matters. and it's what Aerath and Valas and WWN says. it's bliz's game, it's bliz's server, it's bliz's rule. live with it or don't play. and that's all there is to it.

I'll agree to that. (Thread Necromancy for the win!)

[Janfader]

I think I'm a little late responding to this, however I've been out of town for quite awhile.

To the OP: There are numerous guilds that strickly farm. Blizzard has changed so much since 1.1 that farmers have had to change their style of selling gold so many times, that I lost track on how they do it now.

But essentially, it all comes down to hacking in... I'll leave it at that.

Gold farming used to create what you wrote about... meaning decreasing values in the AH and so on.... That has all changed now however.

Just think now that "it's so easy to make money in TBC" that farmers now can make even more money then ever.

Some people who sell gold are addicted to WoW and a life style in front of the computer, trying to earn money by just remaining at home and going crazy avoiding bans and re-hacking every 20 minutes. That's just part of the issue.

If someone can find a way around the banning and selling gold and whateverm they'll continue to do so. Plane and simple.

Has anyone heard about a "rich" WoW hacker gold seller???? NO!