Hardcore to a next level

[NtherBlast]

Recruitment is open for 1 (ONE) Warlock.

Please do NOT apply unless all of this applies to you (we discard every application that hasn't had at least an hour spent on it. Spend a lot of time or we will simply discard it).

- You must have top notch gear (at least +900-1100 spell damage unbuffed). We will check the armory. Please understand, we only want VERY well geared players here. Your gear must, simply put, kick ass as much as Clinkz's!

- You are mature and very, very patient. At least 18 years old. Annoying people please look elsewhere.

- You must be a player that pays attention all the time. Paying attention to details is a huge plus. This is very important. People that can't pay attention shouldnt apply to us.

- Your personality should mesh with the majority of our guild. We want people that we can rely on. Ask yourself; can we rely on you?

- You have extensive knowledge of your class. This means E X T E N S I V E knowledge. Unless you are certain that you kick ass, do not apply. Please... do not waste our time or yours.

- You've raided a lot before, Naxxramas is extremely preferable (all of it), Ahn'Qiraj and the end dungeons in Burning Crusade.

- You can take jokes. You must have a high 'abuse tolerance' - if you're a sensitive person, Nihilum is not for you.

- You spend a lot of time outside raids to farm for consumables and have no problem paying for the things needed.

- You have Ventrilo and a headset with a microphone. It is prefered that you can talk, but it's not a requirement - as long you can listen.

- You realise that you should avoid contacting anyone in the guild regarding recruitment. Instead, we will contact you if we are interested. If we don't contact you, it means we're most likely not interested in your application for the time being. This does not mean you should contact us anyway!

- Your computer must be able to handle 40 players on the screen without any issues. Your ISP should be rock solid, if you disconnect - we do not want you at all whatsoever.

- You are able to raid on a daily basis (at least 6 days a week, 7 is extremely prefered). We usally raid between 17:00 CET to midnight. Sometimes we raid up to 5am, depending on what we're currently doing. Times are flexible and change often. They are announced in the GMOTD and in our private irc channel.

- You must be prepared for Every. Single. Raid. This means you should have the required consumables for said encounter, be repaired, and arrive on time.

- You must have all reputations done that are needed in Burning Crusade.

- You should have all attunements (at the very least Nightbane & Gruul... but Magtheridon for TK access is prefered). This can be discussed, attunement requirements are not set in stone.

- You will spend at the very least 60 minutes filling in our application. Short applications will be discarded. We wont even read them. Poorly written applications will also be discarded.

- You have IRC and are in our channel #nihilum.wow on quakenet if we want to contact you fast. Use the same name as in your application.

- We're not interested in you if you have to take extensive afk's, or afk often at all. You can do this before or after raids.

- If you plan on stopping playing World of Warcraft within the next couple of months, please do not apply. We want players that are in for the long haul, preferably till we as a guild stop playing World of Warcraft. This part really matters - we're not just a guild tag you can say you had and then quit the game shortly after. In order to be recognized and part of the team takes time, and, as such, we only want hardcore and dedicated players that plan to play this game for a long long time.

Class breakdown:

As an applying warlock, you need to kick ass at doing dps and dealing with crowd control. Summoning people and making soulwells is your ultimate passion and goal in life.

Determination:

This is important. We aren't here to farm content we've done a thousand times just to quit when we wipe learning a new encounter. We spend hours upon hours to learn new encounters until we beat them. If this is something you do not wish to be a part of, please look elsewhere. We have worked hard to get where we are - there are no free rides.

Please understand, unless you really are an exceptional player, it is highly unlikely you will be considered at all. Read all the above before you even consider applying - it will simply waste your and our time if you do not take the time to do so.

If you are still interested in applying to us:

Apply to Nihilum Here

what do you guys think of this

[Magikhat]

Jeez. Hardcore nerds.

[SMeeD]

To condense it all:


We only want those who havent had any human contact outside of the basement for at least the last year.

If you intend on ever getting a life, please do not apply.

You will do what we say.

Please dont talk about women. If you sold all of your gold to buy a hooker in RL please dont tease us about it. We cant loose any members because they are trying to do the same.

The insensitive need not apply. We tend to all cry as a group each time we wipe. You must take this game too seriously.

[Shellar]

Well, in all honesty, it's not your average raiding guild we're talking about - it's the freaking Nihilum.

You know, the guys and girls who had the world first C'Thun kill.
And the world first Kel'Thuzad kill.
And Gruul.
And Magtheridon.
And Vashj.
And I have a sneaking feeling that the world first Illidan kill will also go to them.

Since they're the Number 1 PvE guild in the world (with corporate sponsorship, media coverage, free tickets to closed beta, and all other fringe benefits that this position implies), it stands to reason that their recruiting standards would be higher than average, as well.

We only want those who havent had any human contact outside of the basement for at least the last year.

If you intend on ever getting a life, please do not apply.

You will do what we say.

Please dont talk about women. If you sold all of your gold to buy a hooker in RL please dont tease us about it. We cant loose any members because they are trying to do the same.

The insensitive need not apply. We tend to all cry as a group each time we wipe. You must take this game too seriously.
Your post has told me nothing about Nihilum's actual practices, and everything about your personal stereotypes and prejudices. Oh, and do I need to point out the obvious irony of bashing someone for being a 'nerd' on an internet forum devoted to computer game? :rolleyes:

I guess that, in the end, it all boils down to the old adage:

"Anyone who plays less than me is a noob. Anyone who plays more than me has no life."

[det]

Hehe..I get a kick out of reading this kind of stuff...crazy :)

Does show in the end that it is not gear but countless hours invested into the game....

"Your computer must be able to handle 40 players on the screen without any issues. Your ISP should be rock solid, if you disconnect - we do not want you at all whatsoever"

I wish that was a MUST for people in my raid....annoying time sspend waiting

[Gormidan]

Holy moly. I never heard of Nihilum until now. That is quite a recruitment advertisement, or job description if you prefer. At least 6 days a week and 5 or 6 hours a day for raiding, some times more? Presuming a person has a 40 hour a week job that would mean roughly 25 hours in the game, when there are 120 hours in a work week. So, 65 hours minus 120 leaves 55 hours to yourself. Out of that 55 hours you will need to sleep, let's say 7 hours a day, this leaves us with 20 hours. Divide 20 hours by 5 days and your left with 4 hours a day. With those 4 hours a day time will need to be spent for eating, shopping, grooming, commuting, laundry, chores, etc.
Of course, all of this is irrelevant if you have no job, no family, and no...real life responsibility. I wonder, do these people get monetary compensation from their sponsors? Is this how they are able to devote so much time into the game? Because, looking at what they require it would appear to me that it is simply impossible to meet their expectations unless I was single, had a part time job, or no job at all and was wealthy, no social obligations, no need to go outside, no desire to visit a dentist or doctor, no exercise, and the list goes on.
Oh well, that is what they are and what they do, good for them. They are able to get the most out of the game which is a tremendous accomplishment. If I had no other obligations and able to meet the requirements, then sure, I'd apply for the position.

[snowieken]

I play this game to have some fun and distraction from daily life issues. To each their own, but I would never apply for a guild like this, even if I had all the time in the world. This is way too serious for me, borderline unfriendly.

[swaldman]

Well, in all honesty, it's not your average raiding guild we're talking about - it's the freaking Nihilum.

<snip>

Your post has told me nothing about Nihilum's actual practices, and everything about your personal stereotypes and prejudices. Oh, and do I need to point out the obvious irony of bashing someone for being a 'nerd' on an internet forum devoted to computer game? :rolleyes:

I guess that, in the end, it all boils down to the old adage:

"Anyone who plays less than me is a noob. Anyone who plays more than me has no life."

Well true, but... in this case I have to agree. We can see how Nihilum have got where they are, and apparently like everything in WoW it's all about time.

If this is real... I mean, I know that people will transfer servers in order to apply to these folks, but I still find it hard to believe that people can actually devote this much time...

You are able to raid on a daily basis (at least 6 days a week, 7 is extremely prefered). We usally raid between 17:00 CET to midnight. Sometimes we raid up to 5am, depending on what we're currently doing. Times are flexible and change often. They are announced in the GMOTD and in our private irc channel.

- You must be prepared for Every. Single. Raid. This means you should have the required consumables for said encounter, be repaired, and arrive on time.

So. That's raiding 6 days a week for 7 hours a day. (that's more than an average working week, but let's not go into that!). Full attendance required and you can bet full consumable usage required, so you'll be spending at least another 1-3 hours a day farming, crafting, getting enchants, etc. That's a 60 hour week, doing nothing but raiding and preparing for raids[1]. Ignoring the fact that you'd have no evenings available to do anything else in your life, I'm not sure it'd even be practical to have a job... not if you ever want to, say, shop for food, cook, or do the laundry. In my mind, that does constitute "no life outside WoW" :shocked:

So, since they ask for over-18s and you don't have time to shop, cook or clean... I guess the people who can apply are those who either
(a) don't work, but have an independant income or are supported by others
or
(b) consistently work an early shift, need little sleep, and have somebody else to handle their food, laundry, cleaning, etc.

Of course if the guild attracts enough sponsorship for the members to live off, so that they can be professional gamers, then I guess that solves the problem.

*boggle*

[1]On a side note, I wonder how many of Nihilum's memebers have actually seen all of the non-raid content in the game?

[jrichard]

Gormidan, run your time estimates again.

1700 to 2400 is 7 hours. 7 days a week is extremely preferred basically means you apply for this, you raid 7 days. 6 days won't get this for a person because they're gearing up for new content being added. 7 hours raiding means at least 8 to 9 in game by the time you farm/buy mats and get the consumables. Call it 8 and figure that most will farm all mats for the week on the weekend.

So, your work week with 120 hours will have 40 spent in game. Add your 40 hours for work and you're at 80 of those hours.

So, more likely you're left with 40 hours to yourself. Take your 7 hours of sleep estimate and you now have all of 1 hour a day to cover eating, bathing, commuting, shopping, etc. No one working a full time job applying for this had best be thinking they'll sleep more than 4 hours a night. This doesn't even take into account that when the new raid dungeon is released with the next patch they won't be stopping at midnight all that often.

Also, a person had better be working at a place where they can be home ready to go by 5pm cst. That's a rough one. For a guild like this, they do mean ready to raid at the start time, not log on at that time.

jrichard

[Felix Niebuhr]

It does make one shake his head, to think that they play with this approach. Then again, I think they are trying to weed out a whole host of players that doesn`t fit into their standards. If they wrote a friendlier post they might just drown in locks from all servers in Europe, willing to transfer to Magtheridon. So maybe this is more of a boot camp type of thing, although I`m sure the criteria are there to stay. Anyways, its not for me. Even though I sometimes play enough to be there for their raids, the "have to" kills it instantly for me. I also do alot of different things within that time frame, 17:00 to 24:00, and only raiding would be a bore and a chore.

[Lalaust]

- You can take jokes. You must have a high 'abuse tolerance' - if you're a sensitive person, Nihilum is not for you.

That should actually be the first one when you start reading. Most of it was made in fun, and as we all know - exaggerating makes a point bigger.

[Gormidan]

Gormidan, run your time estimates again.

1700 to 2400 is 7 hours. 7 days a week is extremely preferred basically means you apply for this, you raid 7 days. 6 days won't get this for a person because they're gearing up for new content being added. 7 hours raiding means at least 8 to 9 in game by the time you farm/buy mats and get the consumables. Call it 8 and figure that most will farm all mats for the week on the weekend.

So, your work week with 120 hours will have 40 spent in game. Add your 40 hours for work and you're at 80 of those hours.

So, more likely you're left with 40 hours to yourself. Take your 7 hours of sleep estimate and you now have all of 1 hour a day to cover eating, bathing, commuting, shopping, etc. No one working a full time job applying for this had best be thinking they'll sleep more than 4 hours a night. This doesn't even take into account that when the new raid dungeon is released with the next patch they won't be stopping at midnight all that often.

Also, a person had better be working at a place where they can be home ready to go by 5pm cst. That's a rough one. For a guild like this, they do mean ready to raid at the start time, not log on at that time.

jrichard

jrichard, check my post again. Hopefully you were perceptive enough to catch the meaning, "At least" which implies that the following numbers entailed an estimate. And that was all it was, an estimate. In other words, it was a rough guess of a daily schedule with other variables taken into consideration. Also pay attention to the fact that the OP simply asked what we thought of the advertisement. Perhaps you weren't aware of this so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Good luck on your next post.

[Karkas]

Hats of to Blizzard for making a game that still after a few years running can keep gamers of this level of professionality entertained with interesting challenges. While at the same time making these encounters eventually accesible for somewhat less professional guilds AND also providing fun for casual players that may never raid. :thumbsup:

[det]

In all probability they will be students, pupils, maybe unemployed. Maybe people who are single and work an early dayshift.

You'd be surprised how much time some ppl spend watching TV, I mean I know ppl who easily switch on the TV / DVD saturdays and sundays at 10:00 and watch until midnight. On weekdays the TV is switched on at 16:00 and runs until midnight. Works even with a job that has you occupied from 6:00 to 14:00...something indusrialized (did that when I was a student).

Just doesn't work with having friends / a partner

[Mallstrop]

I respect the Nihilum members greatly since they're all top class player. I just can't help but wonder if one day in the future they're look back at what they've done and wonder why the hell they wasted so much time. Sure they got the world first Kel thuzad kill but no one really cares about that, most people couldn't even name most of the world first bosses they're killing at the moment. It's almost asif they're racing against them selves rather than other players.

The only part that annoys me about them is that they're pushing blizz to bring in new content without spending time to farm the old stuff. Black temple's comming soon yet I imagine that a fraction of 1% of the player base has even killed Grull. They should do it MC style where they brought out BWL when it was really needed.

They also seem to whine a lot. It's only fair that a 25 man boss that's only been attempted by less than 1k people (that's 40 raid groups at a guess) out of 9.5 Million isn't their top priority.

[det]

The only part that annoys me about them is that they're pushing blizz to bring in new content without spending time to farm the old stuff. Black temple's comming soon yet I imagine that a fraction of 1% of the player base has even killed Grull.

QFT

Maulgar down, not one of the Naruu trials solved, Karazhan not cleared. (my raidgroup)

2 or 3 guilds on my server are only even at Magtherion, none in TK or SSC. And already new stuff..well at least 5 man and solo content is among it...

[Gormidan]

jrichard, check my post again. Hopefully you were perceptive enough to catch the meaning, "At least" which implies that the following numbers entailed an estimate. And that was all it was, an estimate. In other words, it was a rough guess of a daily schedule with other variables taken into consideration. I don't believe I need to go further into explaining this to you. I'm suprised you had actually taken it seriously enough to feel as though you had to give a correct calculation of a person's time if they were to raid with Nihilum. It would appear that you can employ a systemic analysis of time, as if you held an authoritary position on the subject, however, you clearly missed the context of my post. Also pay attention to the fact that the OP simply asked what we thought of the advertisement. Try replying to the OP and give your thoughts. Perhaps you weren't aware of this so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Better luck on your next post.


End of discussion.

[amgyn]

maybe this is why they are among the top guilds :P


you dont see top law firms, for example, hiring off the street.

[AeroJonesy]

you dont see top law firms, for example, hiring off the street.

If only, my friend. If only. I have to drive to Chicago just for a 20 minute interview with some of the big firms. :(

It's nice that there are guilds out there like Nihilum. Because players with that mentality will not be sitting in your guild going crazy because you aren't pushing content fast enough.

Look at the acceptance rate of schools like Harvard and Yale. It's somewhere around 10% I think. They get a lot of applications because of the fact that they are Harvard. Same here, so Nihilum is just up front in saying that they are being extra choosy, because they can afford to be.

[amgyn]

If only, my friend. If only. I have to drive to Chicago just for a 20 minute interview with some of the big firms. :(
.

lol good luck! rake in that big money $$$

[Meiou]

lol makes the ep of South Park when they all got fat and spotty make sense doesn't it

New apply rules
1) You can never of had or ever have sex!
2) Remove any human emotion!
3) You have to disown you life and family!
4) Buy 8 coffee machines so you never sleep!
5) Become a total brainless moron who follows the rules of a master
6) Same as above be be the monkey to the grinder
7) Again NO SEX EVER
I have just orderd my game and now I worry I made a mistake with morons like this

[Twoflower]

don't worry, i dont think you'll ever get in touch whit them ^^

[poopsmcgee]

lol that entire guild and anyone who would join them needs the big /uninstall very badly. if they worked that hard at their rl they might be suprised at the results.

[PTiger]

lol that entire guild and anyone who would join them needs the big /uninstall very badly. if they worked that hard at their rl they might be suprised at the results.

I'm sorry, but remarks like this are just plain ignorant. World of Warcraft actually is played in RL!!! Shocking I know.

Would you degrade a group of people that were the best in the world, if they were violin players? Let's say they practiced the violin for 7 hours a day, 7 days a week...would you tell them that they needed to stop wasting their time and work hard at rl? Playing the violin and playing WoW really isn't that different, except that there are many more people that play WoW than are violin players.

I applaud Nihilum for what they've done. They're the best (D&T are pretty good too) in a very competitive field. They do what you do, but they're better at it. They devote more time and energy than you do, and see more of the game than you do. Are you really so old fashioned that you degrade people that enjoy the same past time that you do, because it happens to be a game?

Video game players have got to be the only group in the world that degrades their own kind for being the best. Oh wait, I just ran down to my local baseball diamond and all the guys playing there were saying, "Yeah man, A-Rod needs to really get a life. Hitting all those home runs, what a loser...if he spent the time in real life that he did at baseball man he'd be awesome".

Not to mention that you're supporting the old stereotype that playing a video game is somehow less worthy of being a pasttime than anything else. Wake up and stop being a hippocrit.

[swaldman]

Would you degrade a group of people that were the best in the world, if they were violin players? Let's say they practiced the violin for 7 hours a day, 7 days a week...would you tell them that they needed to stop wasting their time and work hard at rl? Playing the violin and playing WoW really isn't that different, except that there are many more people that play WoW than are violin players.


There is a difference in that the violin players are likely to create enjoyment for others. But I don't think that that is a significant point.

If somebody I knew was practising the violin for 7 hours a day, 7 days a week, then I would be rather worried about them - unless they were a professional violinist, or perhaps if they didn't need to work for other reasons.

The same applies to somebody who spends this time in on a computer game.

I don't mean to "degrade" these folks (though some here clearly do) - they have chosen to do what they do. I just *boggle* at it...

[Stigg]

Crazy....but it is Nihilum. Same thing went for DnT....if you look at their apps it is crazy. I thought it was a joke until I got down to where itsaid Nihilum....

To be the best in the world you need to spend the most time in the world. End of story.

[PTiger]

There is a difference in that the violin players are likely to create enjoyment for others. But I don't think that that is a significant point.

If somebody I knew was practising the violin for 7 hours a day, 7 days a week, then I would be rather worried about them - unless they were a professional violinist, or perhaps if they didn't need to work for other reasons.

The same applies to somebody who spends this time in on a computer game.

I don't mean to "degrade" these folks (though some here clearly do) - they have chosen to do what they do. I just *boggle* at it...

To be honest, some violinists spend more than 50 hours a week on their "hobby". As for enjoyment for others...if there were a way for me to watch Nihilum raid, I'd pay good money to do it. Wouldn't you? Wouldn't you want to see how they work together, the strats they use, how they interact with each other, listen to their voice chat? With technology being the way it is, I wouldn't be surprised if someone found a way to broadcast over the internet a persons screen as they are raiding, in real time, complete with audio.

[Loriel]

lol that entire guild and anyone who would join them needs the big /uninstall very badly. if they worked that hard at their rl they might be suprised at the results.

Yeah, I would have to agree with PTiger on this one. Elitist attitudes like this (yours, not Nihilum's) bug the hell out of me, as I can't see any basis for flaming a group of people simply because they choose to play the game differently than you do. Nihilim are in this for the fame, glory and satisfaction of getting world first kills, so they are not anywhere near your average group of WoW players. I certainly wouldn't want to join Nihilum, or DnT, or Curse, or any of the top 5 guilds, as they are WAY too hardcore for me to have any chance of competing. That doesn't mean I don't have the utmost respect for what these guilds have accomplished.

Considering that this is Nihilum, their guild recruitment ad is spot on. It is imo fair to potential applicants that they understand up front the expectations that will be put on them, and it is equally understandable that this level of commitment to the game is required to compete at their level.

PTiger's sports analogy is a good one, and if you look at this in that context then you'll see that Nihilum are at the top of a very competetive field of 8 million players. This is no lesser accomplishemnt than being in the top 1% of any sporting field, but unfortunately the general community does not regard it as such. Except in Korea, ofc :)

Just to clarify that I'm not a Nihilum fanboi per se, it's just that I dislike the notion of putting somebody down simply because they choose to spend their time differently than what you would consider to be "responsible" :)

[swaldman]

To be honest, some violinists spend more than 50 hours a week on their "hobby".

Then once again, I suggest that these are people with no need for a full-time job, and/or no life outside of their music. Personally I find this sad, though it is of course their choice.

As for enjoyment for others...if there were a way for me to watch Nihilum raid, I'd pay good money to do it. Wouldn't you?

Frankly, no. Raids can be boring enough when you're taking part. I wouldn't want to pay to watch somebody else raiding, no matter how good they were...

[Eratia]

Wouldn't you want to see how they work together, the strats they use, how they interact with each other, listen to their voice chat?

Nope, not at all. I've heard recordings from raids before. The abuse actually really upsets me.

But then, I'm a sensitive person, so it's not for me :D

[PlayThemAll]

I can appreciate the effort it takes to be the best guild in the world. Just not for me.

Personally, I play for fun, I don't want it to become work.

[Penny]

I've worked at IBM, McDonnell Douglas, Boeing, etc, making over 6 figures a year and the requirements weren't anywhere as strict as that, nor would I have worked there had they been.

I'll leave it up to you to decide if these are (or were) world leading companies.

I think they're seriously ill.

[poopsmcgee]

lol ptiger and loriel. i wrote 2 sentences and i get flamed for having an opinion paragraph after boring paragraph. am i not allowed to have an opinion without being labeled as an elitist attitude? you can have your opinions about how great these guys are all you want. but playing wow that much every day will not end well. you will die young, fat, unhealthy and most likely with antisocial behavior. humans were not created to sit inside all the time and play video games until their bodily organs shutdown lol. but omg they were so great, they could 5man this dungeon when noone else could... so what. its pixels on a screen man. not worth the plaque that builds up in your coronary vessels cuz you sat on ur butt allday. not to mention the fact taht i bet its standard issue in that guild to have a seat ring to deal with all the hemmoriods they get lol. yah what a hero.

[bxlane]

leave them alone. Who is to judge what people do in their free time? Rash judgements on the type of players who spend their time playing a video game is uncalled for. Sure most stereotypes of gamers are true, thats why they are stereotypes. But not every gamer has no life. 10 year olds, 40 year olds, 60 year olds, asians, latinos, women, men, rich, poor, educated, uneducated, lots of different people play this game.
Just because one guild has strict requirements to be the best doesnt mean they are less of real life people. I bet money you couldnt identify a Nihilum guild member from a line of others.
Lastly, just because YOU dont raid this long doesnt mean YOU have more of a life then they do.

[swaldman]

leave them alone. Who is to judge what people do in their free time?

I'm not judging them, really. It's their choice if they want to devote their life to WoW. But saying that they have no life outside of the game is not a judgement so much as an observation. Read back to where people, including myself, have worked out how much free time it leaves them in a week.


Just because one guild has strict requirements to be the best doesnt mean they are less of real life people. I bet money you couldnt identify a Nihilum guild member from a line of others.

THat's because they wouldn't be in a line of others - they wouldn't have time to leave the house.


Lastly, just because YOU dont raid this long doesnt mean YOU have more of a life then they do.

That's true, I could also have no life outside WoW, even without playing that much. For other people you may speculate, for them it's pretty much inevitable..

[Penny]

I had an interesting thought - if indeed they are professional players and are paid in some manner for their craft...
...that leaves them open to whatever employment rules they have where they are based or perhaps the location the server they are on is subject to.

If what they do is entertainment for them, they're nuts, and if it's a professional team then the whole "you need to have a thick skin" aspect needs to be rethought. An employer where I'm from can get in trouble if it allows a work environment that makes an employee uncomfortable (a 'hostile work environment') for a variety of reasons.

I wonder what OSHA would have to say about their workplace, for instance...

Just a random thought.

[PTiger]

*cracks knuckles* ahhh where to begin

am i not allowed to have an opinion without being labeled as an elitist attitude?

When your opinion is an elitist attitude, then we can call it that.

but playing wow that much every day will not end well.

Can you please tell me your definition of what will end well? Apparently playing wow that much every day won't end well, so please tell me what will.

you will die young, fat, unhealthy and most likely with antisocial behavior.

What if I'm already old and anorexic? Will I die young and fat if I join Nihilum? Gee I hope so. /apply Conversing with 30-40 people every single day for many, many hours doesn't fit my definition of antisocial behavior. Can you explain how it fits yours?

humans were not created to sit inside all the time and play video games until their bodily organs shutdown lol.

So what were humans created to do?

but omg they were so great, they could when noone else could... so what.

Human beings have a tendancy to revere others who do things that no one else has done. Um, except for you, you do not. Einstein's Theory of Relativity...so what.

I hope you keep posting.

[sheepe2004]

I agree with PTiger they should be looked up to for their skill and dedication not dismissed as sad losers with no life. It's very close to being the top team in a sports league (just without the millions of £ flying around).

Now if only i had that much spare time...

[poopsmcgee]

lol ptiger i'm not going to go thru and answer your questionaire. its not like you want the answers anyways. but man u need to grow some thicker skin, your gonna need it lol.

[Distec]

You do have to think about the end result in your life when you are doing this. Look back at your life in the last two years and think about what the return was from playing a game. Its all meaningless, killing virtual monsters that .001% of the population knows about. Using a example previously, playing a violin professionally will return money, playing a sport the same thing. Making money playing WOW? Not likely unless you live in Korea or are a gold farmer.

I play about 20-30 hours of a WOW a week. It's a hobby - it is challenging, stimulating and relieves boredom. Certainly beats TV or bar hopping to waste time. I do have a full time job and girlfriend. Once I hit 70 (only 3 more levels) I plan on cutting back the amount of time that I play to enjoy the finer things in life.

I don't knock those that choose to spend 30+ hours a week playing WOW. I'd rather them do that then out doing drugs or committing crimes. WoW isn't the best way to spend hours of your life in, but it sure beats a lot of other things. And it can develop hand-eye coordination, leaderships skills, some social skills (at least compared to watching TV) and gets your mind thinking on how to solve challenges.

[mesonm]

I'm sorry, but remarks like this are just plain ignorant. World of Warcraft actually is played in RL!!! Shocking I know.

Would you degrade a group of people that were the best in the world, if they were violin players? Let's say they practiced the violin for 7 hours a day, 7 days a week...would you tell them that they needed to stop wasting their time and work hard at rl? Playing the violin and playing WoW really isn't that different, except that there are many more people that play WoW than are violin players.


Holy cow!

You are comparing expert violinists with expert WOW players?

You need to get out more...

I've worked at IBM, McDonnell Douglas, Boeing, etc, making over 6 figures a year and the requirements weren't anywhere as strict as that, nor would I have worked there had they been.

I'll leave it up to you to decide if these are (or were) world leading companies.

I think they're seriously ill.

Wow...I was a senior technical lead (Project Engineer) and then moved to Program Manager at McDonnell Douglas, and never made 'over' 6 figures...until I moved into Law...

Tell us more...

But, I agree with your point that they are seriously......missing something.

[mesonm]

nvm:grin:



..........

[Malthan]

Playing the violin and playing WoW really isn't that different, except that there are many more people that play WoW than are violin players.

Oh really? What next, mayby being a neurosurgeon is also like playing WoW? WoW is a game. Playing the violin is a form of art - can you see the diffrence here?

[rgirty]

To each their own, not that much different than people who spend hours and hours with their fantasy sports picks really is it?

[Penny]

Wow...I was a senior technical lead (Project Engineer) and then moved to Program Manager at McDonnell Douglas, and never made 'over' 6 figures...until I moved into Law...

Tell us more...

But, I agree with your point that they are seriously......missing something.All you need to get over 6 figures is to go into consulting for 10 years or so, then come back as an UNIX admin/dba.

What year were you a program manager? Prior to 2001 and after 2003 was a bad time with ISSC and all...I took the buy out but later quit and consulted...did you work in stl?

[mesonm]

All you need to get over 6 figures is to go into consulting for 10 years or so, then come back as an UNIX admin/dba.

What year were you a program manager? Prior to 2001 and after 2003 was a bad time with ISSC and all...I took the buy out but pater quit and consulted...did you work in stl?

1996-1997ish

Tried to send you mail here, but your box is full.

:cry:

[Fursphere]

So.. when WoW ends (whenever that happens), and these people have to go out and get a job or something,

do they get to include membership to this guild on their job application? lol

[Fursphere]

Oh really? What next, mayby being a neurosurgeon is also like playing WoW? WoW is a game. Playing the violin is a form of art - can you see the diffrence here?

What if WoW put in Violin Playing (375 max skill) as the next tradeskill? What then?

[rgirty]

So.. when WoW ends (whenever that happens), and these people have to go out and get a job or something,

do they get to include membership to this guild on their job application? lol

If they are professional gamers, yes. If they can devote this kind of time to it now obviously they have the means either by living as many would not accept, or being wealthy enough not to be concerned.

If you are an IT professional, doing network admin or any other function and the company you work for goes out of business what happens? You apply and get a job elsewhere doing the same thing.

Just as these individuals can start playing the next game.

[Stigg]

So.. when WoW ends (whenever that happens), and these people have to go out and get a job or something,

do they get to include membership to this guild on their job application? lol

Thortok, if he is still perusing this forum, is planning on putting on his job applications that he is "Thortok" or "Thortok2000" or whatever his new handle is.

So, yes. Some people do find validity in doing things like this. Does it make sense to me? Nope.

[Fursphere]

Some level of me is jealous of this kind of "free time".

But then I think about the time I spend with my wife, my brother, my friends, family, etc.

I think about taking my quads out on the weekends, and not having a care in the world.

And I pity these people. If they only knew what they were missing.

Jokes on them.

[unbdm]

at least they know what they want. sure it's a game, but so is football, vollyball, and all the other 'legit' activities people put heavy amounts of time into. There are of course benefits from sports (health, popular recognition, etc...) that are not provided to gamers.. not to mention chicks dig quarterbacks more than gamers... but I'm stereotyping here.. I guess I can't say that...

But the same could be said of people into puzzles, or the chess club. Heck, if you enjoy it, and you're still keeping other aspects of your life in balance, do what you want. I doubt anyone would last too long at that rate with anything, regardless if it's a video game, sport, hobby, or whatever.

Just my thoughts,
Barry

[Fursphere]

Well, I'm no "casual" WoW player myself...

two accounts, 4 60+ Characters, too many days /played than I want to admit, and a lot of alts.

I was part of a "hardcore" raiding guild for a few months, 6 nights a week, from 5pm to "when we're done". Couldn't take it after awhile, and went back to casual stuff.

[SMeeD]

Your post has told me nothing about Nihilum's actual practices, and everything about your personal stereotypes and prejudices. Oh, and do I need to point out the obvious irony of bashing someone for being a 'nerd' on an internet forum devoted to computer game? :rolleyes:

I guess that, in the end, it all boils down to the old adage:

"Anyone who plays less than me is a noob. Anyone who plays more than me has no life."

Yeah, your correct. Ive learned to live with the burden.

[Shellar]

So.. when WoW ends (whenever that happens), and these people have to go out and get a job or something,

do they get to include membership to this guild on their job application? lol
Quite possibly, particularily if they happen to apply for a job in a MMORPG-designing company. :rolleyes:

[Fursphere]

The irony of a "professional video gamer" just hit me.

With the devs CONSTANTLY tweaking things like encounters and raid instances, fine tuning , etc, the potential fraud involved here is mind boggling.

IE - These guys get "paid to game" right? At some point, even "bonuses" for being the first and such, since sponsorships are wanting their "team" to "win".

This isn't like pro sports or nascar or something where there is referees and such. Its players against a computer, running a set of "rules".

How easy would it be for a dev to "tweak" something in one guilds encounter? Or "leak" information on how to "handle it" to certain players?

Geesz... what a stupid thing to sponsor.

[SwervinCL]

I play this game to have some fun and distraction from daily life issues. To each their own, but I would never apply for a guild like this, even if I had all the time in the world. This is way too serious for me, borderline unfriendly.

I could not agree more.. To the point of "whats the point?"

[Ryste]

There is a difference in that the violin players are likely to create enjoyment for others. But I don't think that that is a significant point.

If somebody I knew was practising the violin for 7 hours a day, 7 days a week, then I would be rather worried about them - unless they were a professional violinist, or perhaps if they didn't need to work for other reasons.

The same applies to somebody who spends this time in on a computer game.

I don't mean to "degrade" these folks (though some here clearly do) - they have chosen to do what they do. I just *boggle* at it...

You'll be surprise at how many hours people spent to be good at something. Gymnasts spending 7 hours everyday to practice is a normal, gymnasts who spent 7 hours everyday and FAILED to make it to the professional level is also normal.

That's just 1 example, there are plenty of other examples.

Ask the top chess players how many hours a day they stare at that chess board.

[rgirty]

The irony of a "professional video gamer" just hit me.

With the devs CONSTANTLY tweaking things like encounters and raid instances, fine tuning , etc, the potential fraud involved here is mind boggling.

IE - These guys get "paid to game" right? At some point, even "bonuses" for being the first and such, since sponsorships are wanting their "team" to "win".

This isn't like pro sports or nascar or something where there is referees and such. Its players against a computer, running a set of "rules".

How easy would it be for a dev to "tweak" something in one guilds encounter? Or "leak" information on how to "handle it" to certain players?

Geesz... what a stupid thing to sponsor.

All this is normal business. Expert consultants are paid to handle everything from logistics, to sales to lean manufacturing. The business world is changing, as often if not more often than the gaming world. I would guess that the maker of bawls kicks themselves every time they think of the money they have wasted sponsoring events/individuals.

Video games = sports of the 21st century.

How many kids do you know that go to a sandlot and play a 9 on 9 real pickup baseball game?

How many kids do you know that get together and play wow?

Sooner than later you'll see the video game equivalent of nike, converse...etc etc...

Stupid? Stupid to miss the cash cow for sure.

[Xmcdaniel]

what do you guys think of this

I know this is frowned on at this board in particular, but these people literally have no lives. It's truly saddening that they take a game that seriously. It's funny, they take it so seriously that they do background checks and make you fill out a huge application? My goodness!

[Xmcdaniel]

what do you guys think of this

I know this is frowned on at this board in particular, but these people literally have no lives. It's truly saddening that they take a game that seriously. It's funny, they take it so seriously that they do background checks and make you fill out a huge application? My goodness!

[BaAlzaemon]

I know this is frowned on at this board in particular, but these people literally have no lives. It's truly saddening that they take a game that seriously. It's funny, they take it so seriously that they do background checks and make you fill out a huge application? My goodness!
What about aspiring sports athlets that spend day after day practicing what society deams to be a meanial skill? Frankly I don't care if you can throw a ball and hit an acorn at 100 yards. The stigma of 'hardcore videogamers have no lives' is loosing it's emphasis. Sports teams take themselves seriously. You have to try out. You have to practice. This is the same. As was previously posted, technology is pushing change in our daily lives.

Hell, look how much is online now as opposed to offline. I remember a time back a couple of years ago when people would come to my house just to see what I was doing, not just to meet up to go somewhere. Now it's all done online: texting, messenging, cell-phone. Times are quickly changing and so are people's habits.

Mocking people because they take themselves seriously isn't really usefull. They are the top in the world. In some places that means a lot. South Korea has (had?) a Star Craft Pay Per View channel. People would pay to watch people compete at Star Craft. This is no different. If these guys pull through some sponsorships (if they haven't already) then are they any different than semi-pro athlets? Not really.

They take themselves seriously because they are serious. Sure WoW is just a game, but then pro-sports are just games.

[Fursphere]

All this is normal business. Expert consultants are paid to handle everything from logistics, to sales to lean manufacturing. The business world is changing, as often if not more often than the gaming world. I would guess that the maker of bawls kicks themselves every time they think of the money they have wasted sponsoring events/individuals.

Video games = sports of the 21st century.

How many kids do you know that go to a sandlot and play a 9 on 9 real pickup baseball game?

How many kids do you know that get together and play wow?

Sooner than later you'll see the video game equivalent of nike, converse...etc etc...

Stupid? Stupid to miss the cash cow for sure.

You're missing my point.

A video game encounter is EASY to manipulate. What's next, betting on who will beat "arthus" first? Well hell, lets just nerf arthas for "x" guild, so they win first, and we won't even tell them!

Things like that. Pro sports aren't so easy to manipulate. Computer code is.

[Xmcdaniel]

I agree with PTiger they should be looked up to for their skill and dedication not dismissed as sad losers with no life. It's very close to being the top team in a sports league (just without the millions of £ flying around).

Now if only i had that much spare time...

What's there to look up to? The purple pixels when you inspect a nihilum guild member? If their skill and dedication actually resulted in something positive and meaningful, then they should be looked up to. If they spent that much time a week doing charity work, or ANYTHING that benefits others in a meaningful way, then it should be looked up to.

However...they are largely anonymous people who spend an inordinate amount of time indoors in front of a computer, trying to accomplish things that have no meaning to anyone else but themselves...and even if it has meaning for them does it benefit them in any significant way? There truly is nothing admirable about what they accomplish...

[TeamRamrod]

What about aspiring sports athlets that spend day after day practicing what society deams to be a meanial skill? Frankly I don't care if you can throw a ball and hit an acorn at 100 yards.

Im sorry but there is a huge difference there. These athletes have the possibility of making millions of dollars, alot of these athletes come from run down neighborhoods and sports is their only way out to help support themselves and their family. Last time i checked most Wow players dont have it so bad if they can afford a computer and the $15 a month, not too mention alot of these players probably live with their parents and pay no bills. Another thing to note is that practicing a sport keeps you physically fit, sitting down playing wow does not.

[Xmcdaniel]

You'll be surprise at how many hours people spent to be good at something. Gymnasts spending 7 hours everyday to practice is a normal, gymnasts who spent 7 hours everyday and FAILED to make it to the professional level is also normal.

That's just 1 example, there are plenty of other examples.

Ask the top chess players how many hours a day they stare at that chess board.

My god...gymnasts are doing a physical activity that benefits them in the long run because of a healthy lifestyle.

And comparing top chess players in terms of mental ability to WoW...just completely out of touch. WoW is pretty much the easiest game I've ever played, period. It ranks right up there with Candyland and Chutes 'n Ladders.

When people realize that success in WoW is about time spent, and not about skill, maybe they will come to there senses on this subject.

[BaAlzaemon]

Im sorry but there is a huge difference there. These athletes have the possibility of making millions of dollars, alot of these athletes come from run down neighborhoods and sports is their only way out to help support themselves and their family. Last time i checked most Wow players dont have it so bad if they can afford a computer and the $15 a month, not too mention alot of these players probably live with their parents and pay no bills. Another thing to note is that practicing a sport keeps you physically fit, sitting down playing wow does not.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you directly on any of your points, but not too long ago there was no such thing as 'professional sports'. If you went back 100 years and told athletes that they could be among the highest paid members of society they'd laugh in your face. Society is changing at ever increasing speeds. Go back 15 years and tell everyone that you'd all be communicating wirelessly and there would be near universal internet availability and most people wouldn't even dream of what we have today.

Computer gaming as a professional sport is becoming increasingly popular. Anyone have a link handy of the video of the korean who won 400k USD for winning a match of StarCraft? They played on a stage with a legion of shrieking fans jammed in below them. 400 000$. Under 10 minutes. Shrieking fans. Sure his sport may not make him fit, but the purpose of professional sports isn't to be fit. It's to win. Top chess players don't necessarily have to be fit, but there is no way you can argue that they don't deserve any respect simply because you can be out of shape and be the best chess player in the world. Fewer of the shrieking fans at chess matches but cut and dry comparisons don't fit this situation.

(By the way, there are many many more people who have not made it out of poverty because they pursued sports rather than proper education. Learning how to beat your own poverty is better than trying to aspire for something that is unrealistic to the vast majority of the population. Training for a decent paying job is a realistic way of helping your family. Trying to be a top paid pro-athlete isn't unless you are one of the lucky few with the amazing skills to be able to.)

[Xmcdaniel]

What about aspiring sports athlets that spend day after day practicing what society deams to be a meanial skill? Frankly I don't care if you can throw a ball and hit an acorn at 100 yards. The stigma of 'hardcore videogamers have no lives' is loosing it's emphasis. Sports teams take themselves seriously. You have to try out. You have to practice. This is the same. As was previously posted, technology is pushing change in our daily lives.

Hell, look how much is online now as opposed to offline. I remember a time back a couple of years ago when people would come to my house just to see what I was doing, not just to meet up to go somewhere. Now it's all done online: texting, messenging, cell-phone. Times are quickly changing and so are people's habits.

Mocking people because they take themselves seriously isn't really usefull. They are the top in the world. In some places that means a lot. South Korea has (had?) a Star Craft Pay Per View channel. People would pay to watch people compete at Star Craft. This is no different. If these guys pull through some sponsorships (if they haven't already) then are they any different than semi-pro athlets? Not really.

They take themselves seriously because they are serious. Sure WoW is just a game, but then pro-sports are just games.

Sports athletes lead healthy lifestyles, get plenty of rest, and make a lot more money. There is also a legitimate audience and admiration for their skills, not to mention that watching them is entertaining.

Comparing that to someone who plays WoW, which in many "hardcore gaming" circles is believed to be one of the easiest games on the market now is laughable. I highly doubt that guild members make all that much money even if they do at all.

I could quit my job, divorce my wife, and abandon the kids to free up the time to attune myself and gear up and join a guild like that...the game is so easy, that if you have the time you can make it happen.

There is nothing professional or admirable about having enough time on your hands to accomplish something that takes little to no skill.

I don't give a rat's behind if someone chooses to take this path...it's their choice. But don't ask me to admire what they do, because I think behavior like that is destructive to the person and society in general since they are providing no real benefit to anyone or anything.

[bxlane]

FYI to those that calculated the hours.
24hrs/day*7 days/week 168 hrs in a week.
40hr/week job= 128 hours of "free" time
7hrs/night sleep = 49 hrs/week= 79 hours of "free" time
6days/week raiding* 5hrs a night = 30hrs of raiding = 49 hours of "free" time
49 hrs/7 = 7/hrs a day free time OUTSIDE of warcraft.
So, raiding as much as they do does not take away from other activities.

[DraedynLei]

honestly i couldnt care less what these people do. i suppose i gotta give em some props for being the first to down this and that, but i really couldn't care. call me selfish but i just care about my own personal experience in wow. if these guys want to play 40-50 hrs a week, so what? doesn't affect me one bit. would i do anything like this? hell no. between my job and my gf (who already hates wow) i don't got the time. plus it sounds too much like a job, and i already got one of those.

[Xmcdaniel]

FYI to those that calculated the hours.
24hrs/day*7 days/week 168 hrs in a week.
40hr/week job= 128 hours of "free" time
7hrs/night sleep = 49 hrs/week= 79 hours of "free" time
6days/week raiding* 5hrs a night = 30hrs of raiding = 49 hours of "free" time
49 hrs/7 = 7/hrs a day free time OUTSIDE of warcraft.
So, raiding as much as they do does not take away from other activities.

If you think they are only spending 5 hours a night playing the game, you are sorely mistaken. I think that was meant to be the minimum amount you needed to be available for to even be considered. I'd venture to guess that many of them play around 50 hours a week, maybe more.

[SadaraK]

As for the peeps who attempted to do the math on time needed to fullfill this application, imo you need not bother, anyone who completely fullfills the time requirements wont have a job, at least not a full time one.

As far as the requirements go, people can scoff, but they wouldn't do what they did if they asked any less of people. In anything, anywhere where there is the possibility of pushing something to the absolute bleeding edge, someone, somewhere, will do it. Its just human nature.

The listed guidelines are just an extension and beefing up of what any serious PvE guild needs in a new player. And as it happens i fall under most of them, save the extreem time needed, which tbh id expect from the greater dedication to raiding.

The requiements are from a group of people who have pushed the concept of bleeding edge raiding to its utter limits, dont judge them for doing that, it's their choice.

[TeamRamrod]

Sports athletes lead healthy lifestyles, get plenty of rest, and make a lot more money. There is also a legitimate audience and admiration for their skills, not to mention that watching them is entertaining.

Comparing that to someone who plays WoW, which in many "hardcore gaming" circles is believed to be one of the easiest games on the market now is laughable. I highly doubt that guild members make all that much money even if they do at all.

I could quit my job, divorce my wife, and abandon the kids to free up the time to attune myself and gear up and join a guild like that...the game is so easy, that if you have the time you can make it happen.

There is nothing professional or admirable about having enough time on your hands to accomplish something that takes little to no skill.

I don't give a rat's behind if someone chooses to take this path...it's their choice. But don't ask me to admire what they do, because I think behavior like that is destructive to the person and society in general since they are providing no real benefit to anyone or anything.

I was gonna reply but you pretty much said it, i could'nt agree more. Wow is a VIDEO GAME. Not too many people respect others for being so hardcore into something that does not give you or anyone else any benefit. Pro-athletes are atleast looked up to by little kids, set positive examples(most of them) to exersize and get fit, alot of them also do charity work that benefits society. Someone good at wow does none of this. Sports are also watched by millions of people and are admired for their physical skills and abilities.....wow will never achieve this. Wow and sports is a pretty poor comparison

[Justinledwards]

Heh will if you want a flip-side to that glowing ideal of healthy sports - comparing wow to sports... steroids, body abuse, osteo-arthiritis... elite athletes don't have it easy. And anywhere that you specialise, be it basketball, running, gymnastics, watching sport, playing WoW, typing to much on forums, you risk injury.

Maybe the better analogy is comparing playing WoW to Watching sports. Not actually being a sports-person.

However what is beyond the pale is the holier-than-thou attitude. I'm sorry, statements like 'pity' are just arrogant. 'pitying someone' is not an opinion, that is a judgement - 'I pity you'... you judge that that persons choices are to be pitied because they are not "right"... well, I hear the church is looking for missionaries.

Anyway, someone's gotta do it. Who else would we rave on about.

[jrichard]

FYI to those that calculated the hours.
24hrs/day*7 days/week 168 hrs in a week.
40hr/week job= 128 hours of "free" time
7hrs/night sleep = 49 hrs/week= 79 hours of "free" time
6days/week raiding* 5hrs a night = 30hrs of raiding = 49 hours of "free" time
49 hrs/7 = 7/hrs a day free time OUTSIDE of warcraft.
So, raiding as much as they do does not take away from other activities.

*sigh*

FYI, 1700 is 5pm. 5pm to midnight is not 5 hours. It's 7. 6 days a week is mandatory, 7 days "extremely preferred". That means as the new guy you will be there 7 days a week.

You must be prepared for Every. Single. Raid. This means you should have the required consumables for said encounter, be repaired, and arrive on time.

That means you will farm mats, get enchants, do your AH'ing, whatever it is you want to do outside of the raid time. You don't log on at 5pm, screw around in the city for an hour and then meander towards the dungeon. You WILL spend more than 7 hours per day in game. 9 to 10 hours is a more realistic minimum. If you do all your farming etc. on the weekends, then you will spend 16 hours in game on sat. and sunday.

Seriously, the other guy got all indignant because his "estimate" was a joke and i called it as such. Yours is no better. Not where raiding with a guild like this is concerned.

jrichard

[poopsmcgee]

lol i wasn't even going to go where some of youse have gone. i wasn't going to talk about how little skill is needed for wow. i thought it might offend many members of this board. i'm glad to see that at least some of you realise how little skill is needed for this game as compared to others. this game is based around knowledge and the more you know about wow's dynamics, the better you will perform. you can know all you want about counterstrike, but if you don't have the reflexes to get the kill, you'll never make it into cpl. personally the best i've ever done is cal main, and that took quite a bit of practice just to get a squad capable of that. the guys in cpl really put the professional in cyper professional league. if your looking for a gamer to look up to, look no further than the cpl. they are all pros, well all those who haven't been caught hacking LOL.

[mesonm]

Thortok, if he is still perusing this forum, is planning on putting on his job applications that he is "Thortok" or "Thortok2000" or whatever his new handle is.

Will he get a job using such info? Perhaps from an extremely narrow set of possible employers...but more likely not.

[roaming eye]

I applaud these people (Nihilum) for setting steep goals for themselves, working very hard for them and achieving them. Of course they seek like-minded people and make that perfectly clear in their recruitment post.

You can disagree with their goals, you might see achieving these goals in a game 'wasted effort'. But in the end, life is about setting personal goals and achieving them, preferrably with friends/like minded people. It's great to have these personal victories, whether it is running a half a marathon in a new personal record or achieving a world-first in a computergame. Its a personal victory and nothing is sweeter. Also isn't it a a great achievement that we all know there guild name from tens of thousands guilds out there?

I couldn't do what these guys do, simply too much dedication/time involved, but I say;
More power to them :thumbsup:

[Daidoji Sagara]

To chime in on multiple points:

Honestly this ad is not overdriven. yeah it's harsh and tough. But they ciould have said it that way: You have to be among the top of the top.

I'm not, and I don't want to be. I made the choice to dedicate myself to my wife, with a job coming second and gaming a dsitant third. Now is my choice any better? Dunno, wilk never know, but I do believe it is "in the eye of the Beholder" so to speak, and I could understand that for a game designer-to-be, gaming and job mix and supercede to an extend emotional and social aspect (just like workaholics).

The only thing I hope is that they realise there will be an "opportunity cost" to pay: they choose to ignore some things (offline life, physical fitness). If that's cool with them, Id say it should be cool with us!

[katnnv]

At least they know what they want and they have standards to maintain. Yea, it's a little extreme, but it's better than seeing guilds mass advertise for new members and then take anyone and everyone without being selective. I would much rather know what to expect from my guild and from new members, instead of taking anyone just trying to increase a guild's numbers.

[SadaraK]

On the subject of wow experiance being used on proper job applications, i dont think theres a cat in hells chance it will make the slightest bit of difference because the best it will ever be is an additional note under 'hobbies' on your CV.

And i think thats a bit of a shame, because 2 years of being a guild running officer in a high end PvE guild has actually taught me a hell of alot about people management, which could undoubtably be used in some other jobs to a great or lesser degree.

On the subject of skill in wow, im soo sick of the debate, and im even sicker of the sweeping 'no skill required at all' comments. Anyone who believes no skill is required in wow hasn't had to spend 2 years of officering interviewing/talking to/teaching new potential tanks in the guild only to find out that 95% of every warrior that applies isn't any good.

If the games so darn easy why is it so many people dont make the grade for higher end guilds? I know we have seen some perfectly fine peeps who just wern't any good. Though i admit interviewing for possible mt/ot spots is a harder position then say dps.

I played the origonal UT under the handle (surprise surprise) SadaraK, and considered myself to be pretty good, moved around some of the better uk clans and even got a smell of sponsorship once. Now i play WoW, and imo as an MT of our guild, and though its a different game entirely, they both need skill.

this game is based around knowledge and the more you know about wow's dynamics, the better you will perform

Completely true, totally agree, knowledge is a large part of the base of a players skill in wow. Only now, tell me any competitive activity where this is not true...

[Loriel]

I think that in 10 years time we can all look back at this thread and smile :) Hindsight is ofc always 20/20, but I think the trend is already pretty obvious. I'm confident that professional gaming will explode and eventually be recognized as a sport, and that it will continue to draw an ever increasing audience.

The Koreans are a lot more passionate about online gaming compared to the rest of the world, and they seem to have shaken off the social stereotypes associated with it (if they ever had any) - but the rest of the world is following suit. Korea fields professional gaming teams and individuals, backed by corporate sponsorship. Some of these players are recruited at the age of 12, and they train and compete together - it's essentially a full-time job.

Now the trend of professional gaming is converging with the commercial success of WoW, spawning sponsored Arena teams and also corporate funding for guilds like Nihilum. Where there's an audience, the money will follow. You may disagree with this trend, or choose to consider these hardcore raiders as no-lifers - but nevertheless it is happening.

[Daidoji Sagara]

Hey, after a fashion there are people considering top sport players to be absolute morons outisde of their field.

Remember the "stupid star quarterback" stereotype? :grin:

[Pera]

On the subject of wow experiance being used on proper job applications, i dont think theres a cat in hells chance it will make the slightest bit of difference because the best it will ever be is an additional note under 'hobbies' on your CV.

And i think thats a bit of a shame, because 2 years of being a guild running officer in a high end PvE guild has actually taught me a hell of alot about people management, which could undoubtably be used in some other jobs to a great or lesser degree.

On the subject of skill in wow, im soo sick of the debate, and im even sicker of the sweeping 'no skill required at all' comments. Anyone who believes no skill is required in wow hasn't had to spend 2 years of officering interviewing/talking to/teaching new potential tanks in the guild only to find out that 95% of every warrior that applies isn't any good.

If the games so darn easy why is it so many people dont make the grade for higher end guilds? I know we have seen some perfectly fine peeps who just wern't any good. Though i admit interviewing for possible mt/ot spots is a harder position then say dps.

I played the origonal UT under the handle (surprise surprise) SadaraK, and considered myself to be pretty good, moved around some of the better uk clans and even got a smell of sponsorship once. Now i play WoW, and imo as an MT of our guild, and though its a different game entirely, they both need skill.



Completely true, totally agree, knowledge is a large part of the base of a players skill in wow. Only now, tell me any competitive activity where this is not true...

Most people don't bother applying for these kind of guilds nor do they try to be "World's #1 Raiding Guild" simply because it means absolutely nothing to 99.99% of the population and they don't have the obscene amount of time it takes to be in such position...

Personally, its like being the world's best can opener, or whistler, or any other useless thing you can think of. Also it is pretty sad that some people compered WoW players with pro musicians. A big LOL for that...

EDIT: A final note on the "skill" it takes to play WoW. I completely agree that an officer in Nihilum or the GM for that matter will develop much better people, time, and resource management skills over time. However, for the rest of the guild which entitles to more than 75%-80%, all they need is great gear and some common sense that will allow them to follow directions.

I don't think the "skill set" required to play WoW is any more complex than solving a middle school algebra problem. You have a challange, and there are key points to overcome this challenge. Now all you need is identifying the key points, practice, and TONS of free time. Eventualy you will beat the challenge.

[Penny]

There are events in the world that are truly scary. I went to dinner the other night at the neighborhood bar and grill and the TV had on an eating contest. People were scarfing down food and praising the 'winner' for his/her abilities like it was a good thing...they even called it a 'sport'!

This is pretty much in that same vein - something that when done in moderation is perfectly fine and even good, yet when taken to extremes seems to indicate a disturbing behavior.

[roaming eye]

Yeah, people having fun in their way indeed is 'disturbing behavior'. :shocked:

Can we stop judging 'other people 'and just accept that they enjoy other things then us? Without getting the pitchforks out and shouting 'Witch!' and 'Freak!'. :ponder:

Edited for lack of smilies

[Penny]

Yeah, people having fun in their way indeed is 'disturbing behavior'. :shocked:

Can we stop judging 'other people 'and just accept that they enjoy other things then us? Without getting the pitchforks out and shouting 'Witch!' and 'Freak!'. :ponder:

Edited for lack of smiliesDO you believe that people who "judge 'other people'" are exhibiting disturbing behavior?

Joking aside, "moderation in all things" is a pretty good goal. Yes, there are professions where some people feel compelled to dedicate their entire waking lives to their craft, at that point I'd argue that the recognition needs to be the reward and such people aren't affected by the opinions of the likes of me...they don't need defenders.

[YamahaGuy]

Im in a raiding guild. Probably not so hardcore as this appy though.

But honestly? It gets old. People AFKing so they can answer the door, take out the dog, kitchen on fire... and 39 other people waiting at a dead hault because of them.

People joining and getting gear, then bailing.

People applying and nagging who just don't cut it

People who never attend or are late.

People always hitting up guild bank for flasks or pots they need.

If people just logged in on days and times whenever they felt like it, you'd never have the people to go ANY raid. These "rules" are in place to make things HAPPEN. Not putz around in la la land with unreliable people.

[rgirty]

If the games so darn easy why is it so many people dont make the grade for higher end guilds?

If high school is so easy, why is it so many people drop out?

If work is so easy, why is it so many people are unemployed?

If making money is so easy, why is it so many people live in poverty?

If obeying the law is so easy, why is it so many people are in prison?

If life is so easy, why is it so many people commit suicide?

Some people can, and some people can't. But the game is easy, and is basically built around how much time you can spend playing. Yes, you cannot be a total idiot and play at a high level but if someone just wants to put in the time/effort they can perform.

[Ryste]

My god...gymnasts are doing a physical activity that benefits them in the long run because of a healthy lifestyle.

And comparing top chess players in terms of mental ability to WoW...just completely out of touch. WoW is pretty much the easiest game I've ever played, period. It ranks right up there with Candyland and Chutes 'n Ladders.

When people realize that success in WoW is about time spent, and not about skill, maybe they will come to there senses on this subject.

If it's the easiest game, I don't see you clearing Gruul, clearing tempest keep on a daily basis. I don't see you on the #1 arena ladder standing.

You should really get in touch with reality, gymnast who spent 7 hours a day on the exercise machines starting at age 4 or 5 will have long term deteriation of joints when they grow older. Healthy lifestyle? You obviously haven't see little kids doing 300 flips a day, doing 1 hand stands for hours and hours until their hands are shaking. You should look at the long term effects of some of the sports. Boxing, football...etc.

Try spending 10 hours a day for 7 days a week in the arena, I can guarantee you will never be the #1 arena team in 2v2, 3v3, 5v5. You will still get beat by people who only play 10 arena games a week. Just because you solo your way to level 70 doesn't mean it's easy.

[Ryste]

Some people can, and some people can't. But the game is easy, and is basically built around how much time you can spend playing. Yes, you cannot be a total idiot and play at a high level but if someone just wants to put in the time/effort they can perform.

Go put in the time in arena, it has the BEST gear in the game right now.

All you need is win a game every 2-3 minutes, see how far you'll get with your time.

[rgirty]

Go put in the time in arena, it has the BEST gear in the game right now.

All you need is win a game every 2-3 minutes, see how far you'll get with your time.

I'm not a fan of PvP personally. So much content in wow, I don't believe the best experience is arena type matches.

Glorified streetfighter/mortal kombat just does not do it for me.

[Ryste]

I'm not a fan of PvP personally. So much content in wow, I don't believe the best experience is arena type matches.

Glorified streetfighter/mortal kombat just does not do it for me.

So AT LEAST one aspect of the game is not easy for you then. Whether you choose to participate, or use some excuse that you don't enjoy it.

[SadaraK]

But the game is easy, and is basically built around how much time you can spend playing

To attempt to take time out of equation of world of warcraft skill, lets try looking at arena and as a pve comparison heroic 5 man instances.

Yes, in both of these better gear makes a difference, and yes more time = more chance to get better gear. But that fact in no way effects the point that you can still be skillfull without the gear, or the time.

A less geared person can perform better in an instance then a better geared one, and a lesser geared team of arena combatants can outclass a better geared team by sheer dint of teamwork and skill.

My point is simple, just because the minimum requirements for alot of things in wow do not require alot of skill, does not mean there is the space in which to exibit this skill.

Which is why comments like 'the game is easy' is like saying football is easy, you just need to be able to kick a ball. In that comparison im not comparing the 2, i am saying that there is a large gap between minimum needed and maximum attainable skill level.

No matter how much you learn at the game you will still need skill, not time or gear, to be able to react well in an arena match. And you will still need skill, not time or gear, to be able to react when an instance encounter doesn't go as planned to pull it out the toilet.

[det]

Go put in the time in arena, it has the BEST gear in the game right now.

All you need is win a game every 2-3 minutes, see how far you'll get with your time.

That is a great hint. Why not suggest to get some epics from PvE? All you have to do is walk into Karazhan and kill everything ^^

Too bad there are other teams who have something against this. And while the top 5v5 teams at a rating of 2400 score 1700 arena points each weeks (that is 1 epic every week or every second week) the average 2v2 teams (average as in: most teams are average) go home with about 300 arena points. That is..lets say...Gladiator's staff in only 11 weeks. Hmmmm...we had Karazhan cleared faster than that ^^

[Ryste]

That is a great hint. Why not suggest to get some epics from PvE? All you have to do is walk into Karazhan and kill everything ^^

Too bad there are other teams who have something against this. And while the top 5v5 teams at a rating of 2400 score 1700 arena points each weeks (that is 1 epic every week or every second week) the average 2v2 teams (average as in: most teams are average) go home with about 300 arena points. That is..lets say...Gladiator's staff in only 11 weeks. Hmmmm...we had Karazhan cleared faster than that ^^

That's great, thanks.

So there are some aspects of the "easiest game" claimed by many that isn't soo easy that you can just get it by spending lots of time. Aka. Arena gear. If you are bad in pvp, playing arena for hours will actually hurt your rating.

You can spend the same amount of time in the arena matches as you would in Karazahn and get less epics. Because you have the PvE skills, but don't lack the PvP skills. This is just one example of time doesn't mean item in WoW.

[Altaris]

Wow...

Frankly, I'm let down by all of you bashing these people. You're elitist attitudes are rude and unnecessary and not in the spirit of this forum.

Regardless of your opinion, these people have chosen to do what they enjoy. They are not you. You are not them. You are not anyone to judge them, you have no right to do so. Bashing them as you have is hypocritical, stereotypical and elitist. Deny it all you want, but that will not change the truth. What they choose to do with their life has no affect on you. They have no negative impact in their surroundings by choosing to raid as intensely as this. At least they are not out drinking, doing drugs, or participcating in other illegal/harmful activities.

Lose the egos and get a grip on yourselves. This thread makes me sick.

[Hoonah]

Interesting thread and varied opinions. I guess I see both sides. It is a game developed to be a vehicle of entertainment. There will always be extremes. That being said I have seen down side to hardcore playing:

1) My accounting manager's nephew quit high school and lived in his parents basement doing nothing but playing games (WoW). His parents gave him an ultimatum and he got his GED and now is in Iraq serving in the Army and hating every minute of it. He now blames WoW for his situation (I would challenge that he made the choice).

2) My former guild leader was 15 yo and on all the time. We older players were getting concerned in emails to each other. One day the guild is gone. Found out he got expelled from high school for excessive absences (playing WoW). His parents not only pulled his computer but sold it. He now has to work until he is allowed back in school and is banned from WoW if he wants any future education funded by his parents.

I think one of the tips I saw when I first started playing says "Take everything in moderation - even WoW". Good advice.

If you can play WoW to this level and it doesn't destroy your life or those around you go for it. If not use common sense. I salute these folks for being the best. If I tried to put in that much time to be that good I imagine loosing my job and thus house, car, etc so no thanks.

Since I have been playing for just under a year now and know of these 2 direct RL situations I wonder how wide spread the negative situation really is?

[mesonm]

Wow...

Frankly, I'm let down by all of you bashing these people. You're elitist attitudes are rude and unnecessary and not in the spirit of this forum.

Regardless of your opinion, these people have chosen to do what they enjoy. They are not you. You are not them. You are not anyone to judge them, you have no right to do so. Bashing them as you have is hypocritical, stereotypical and elitist. Deny it all you want, but that will not change the truth. What they choose to do with their life has no affect on you. They have no negative impact in their surroundings by choosing to raid as intensely as this. At least they are not out drinking, doing drugs, or participcating in other illegal/harmful activities.

Lose the egos and get a grip on yourselves. This thread makes me sick.

You certainly have a point, but a terrible way to frame it...

Regardless of what YOU think, the other opinions are valid also.

Certainly, your method of delivery, and that used by others, can be better...

But, I submit that your message might get lost in the hostility...

[Herald of Doom]

I think what people here are forgetting is very simple. People applying for Nihilum are not average WoW'ers. They are those few dozen players that play to the extreme. Is it to be admired? That's your personal opinion. As long as they enjoy themselves while doing this and cause no harm to others, fine by me. I don't go judging everyone who does activity X for too long if they like doing it. Oh and, athletes quite often screw up their bodies while training.. Just look at my knee, I can never do Jiu Jitsu again :/

HoD

[gmedina]

So many points to make a so little time.

First to the ppl out there saying that comparing violinist to WoW gamers is not credible since violinst are creating something good for ppl around them. Really are they, ok who is the 1st Chair Violinst for the Phil Harmonic Orchestra? or who won first chair in 1934? When happens when they finish playing and look back on their lives and realize that they did it all for nothing? No one will remember them hell once they stop playing what the "created" is gone. Same is true for proffessional gamers, no one will remember them no different than the violinist yet we for some reason seem to feel that one is superior to the other. Some of you also said that you can't make money on this, well there is a professional Halo player that makes 100K+ per year playing Halo in competition. Is he wasting his life? How about nascar drivers?

In regard to the person who said that WoW has destryed so many lives for example the boy who is stuck in Iraq or the boy who got kicked out of school. Hmmm how many musicians had they life taken from them because the stress of music ruined their life, Jimmy Hendrix maybe or Kurt Cobain or... well you get the point. It isn't the game it is their obsessive behaviour that ruined their lives. Yet when a musician is obsessive we don't say he has no life we credit him with being dedicated to his passion, when a sports star does it we credit him with hard work ethic, when a worker does it to climb the coporate ladder we credit him with drive. But when a gamer does it we credit him with...no life? seems kinda like some of us need to rexamine ourselves.

[PTiger]

1st Chair Violinist for the Philharmonic Orchestra is Boris Garlitsky.

In any case, gmedina, I completely agree with everything you've said. I said the same thing earlier in the thread.

[CorinthianSC]

I applaud these people (Nihilum) for setting steep goals for themselves, working very hard for them and achieving them.

Emphasizing this. A group of people dedicated themselves to a very difficult goal, with significant competition and are achieving it. It doesn't matter what field it is in. It doesn't matter what activity. They do things that the majority of people do not have the dedication to accomplish in ANY part of their life.

How many people posting here have really dedicated themselves to something, anything, to this degree?

There is a core similarity to professional sports here. Guilds like Nhilium and Death and Taxes are the 'Pro Teams' of WoW. People associate with them. When DnT gets a first kill, people talk like the US won something. (and vice versa) People care how well these groups do, and with a 8 million plus subscriber base, that isn't an insignificant audience. Sure, it's not the World Cup, but it's enough people to get some attention.

There is nothing inherently wrong with this kind of dedication to a game. It all depends on the player, and how they let the game affect their lives. It is very possible that one of these players, taking the skills learned raiding (dedication, teamwork, strategy, management) will go on to be very successful in the corporate world. Just as likely as he will become a poopsocking basement virgin. This is the case with any activity. If people really want to be good, they dedicate their time. In any case this has the potential to be beneficial or detrimental to their lives.

So basically, stop judging. They try to be the best at something, and they succeed. There isn't much more to say than that.

[gmedina]

1st Chair Violinist for the Philharmonic Orchestra is Boris Garlitsky.

In any case, gmedina, I completely agree with everything you've said. I said the same thing earlier in the thread.

Ahhh!!!! but did you know that or did you have to look it up on google????

Plus you missed the second one!!:grin:

[SirBazturd]

Their guild...their rules.

[SlyHilgen]

I lived in Korea for all of middle- and highschool. They do not have the same issues and stereotypes about gamers as we have here. There is a No Re Bang (Game Room) everywhere you turn, and as stated before there are professional gamers that are paid just like their professional soccer team. It is simply another part of life.

The difference there is that some people are paid for it. This means it is a job, and a way to pursue their happiness, whatever that may be. Here it is not that way, and thus it is simply a way to spend time, for which you get nothing. A Korean pro gamer can say, after killing Gruul, that "I just got a bonus which will allow me to take my family to dinner and get that new Hyundai." The Nihilum member can say "I was the first in the world to kill Gruul, which allows me to say I was the first in the world to kill Gruul."

I am not degrading the hardcore raiders...their time, their choice of how to spend it. I am simply shedding some light on how the comparisons being made in this thread are way off the mark. We all have no right to criticize it, but at least see it for what it is: meaningless.

That may not always be the case, but for now it is. Maybe these guys will be millionaires if gaming becomes the next pro sport in America. That said, life is not about how much money you make. IMO life is about being meaningful and enjoyable for yourself. If you take pleasure volunteering at the soup kitchen...great. If you take pleasure playing WoW...great. As long as when you are dying, you can look back and be happy with your life, then you were a success. Whether or not that will be the case with the Nihilum crew is not for any of us to say.

[CorinthianSC]

Ahhh!!!! but did you know that or did you have to look it up on google????

Plus you missed the second one!!:grin:


Which Philharmonic Orchestra? And who the heck is Phil Harmonic? Is he like Phil Collins?

[gmedina]

Which Philharmonic Orchestra? And who the heck is Phil Harmonic? Is he like Phil Collins?

LOL, goes to show you how much better that example is than i thought. I didn't even realize there was more than one.:grin:

[CorinthianSC]

LOL, goes to show you how much better that example is than i thought. I didn't even realize there was more than one.:grin:

heh, most major metropolitan areas have one. Some are better than others.

[Hoonah]

In regard to the person who said that WoW has destryed so many lives for example the boy who is stuck in Iraq or the boy who got kicked out of school. Hmmm how many musicians had they life taken from them because the stress of music ruined their life, Jimmy Hendrix maybe or Kurt Cobain or... well you get the point. It isn't the game it is their obsessive behaviour that ruined their lives. Yet when a musician is obsessive we don't say he has no life we credit him with being dedicated to his passion, when a sports star does it we credit him with hard work ethic, when a worker does it to climb the coporate ladder we credit him with drive. But when a gamer does it we credit him with...no life? seems kinda like some of us need to rexamine ourselves.

I am sorry that is what I thought I was trying to say in my earlier post. It isn't the game but obsessive behavior - exactly. Could be applied to a lot of RL situations.

In the two cases I know of personally one also has to ask where were the parents before the situation got to that point?

Again if the folks in this guild can pull off the time committment and achieve that level of excellence kudos to them! Life is what we make of it. What each of us consider "a life" is so subjective I wouldn't impose my view on others. Destructive behavior outside of social norms (perhaps not as subjective) is the problem. Especially when any obsessive behavior impacts others around you.

As far as us rexamining ourselves you betcha! I was playing too much on work nights and was a little too tired the next day. I cut my time on WoW by about 50% and life is good again. :grin:

[Herald of Doom]

Eh there's basically one in every major city in the US and every country, no?

Correct me if I'm wrong, Classical music is NOT my thing hehe

HoD

[gmedina]

Eh there's basically one in every major city in the US and every country, no?

Correct me if I'm wrong, Classical music is NOT my thing hehe

HoD

seems like it but i didn't know that, so go figure.

[shifttusk]

Sports athletes lead healthy lifestyles, get plenty of rest, and make a lot more money. There is also a legitimate audience and admiration for their skills, not to mention that watching them is entertaining.

I'm pretty sure that all the people who most likely pay these players for input in writing game guides are a legitimate audience. As are the thousands that end up buying them. I'm sure people are pleanty entertained as well. L2 take a step back and get a new point of view.

Comparing that to someone who plays WoW, which in many "hardcore gaming" circles is believed to be one of the easiest games on the market now is laughable. I highly doubt that guild members make all that much money even if they do at all..

I'll bet they make a decent amount of cash for this from who i mentioned in the begining of my post. If this is such an easy game why are these the only people who beat it rapidly and why does it take so much time? Its not that easy and requires a bunch of work. When you get 40 casual players and do the same thing as them with 1/4 of the time spent I'll agree that its easy.

I could quit my job, divorce my wife, and abandon the kids to free up the time to attune myself and gear up and join a guild like that...the game is so easy, that if you have the time you can make it happen.

If it was so easy it wouldnt take time. I'm guessing you don't have any experience with getting a group of people to work together to do something using a limited set of tools. This is the fundimental idea behind creating new things, developing software, playing sports and thousands of other activities. The only difference is what goal and what tools.

There is nothing professional or admirable about having enough time on your hands to accomplish something that takes little to no skill..

Budgeting time to accomplish a goal and working at it is the definition of professionalism. Setting a clear set of requirements and working towards them are as well. Just because your definition may be limited in scope does not make your opinion right. I certainly can't dedicate myself to the same goal as these people but they do. These guys organize, do the prep work, communicate, plan and execute untill they succeed at this goal. Professional. The issue is here you don't respect their goal. A good thing to bring to light is that you belittle someone who takes your hobby and approaches it seriously and professionaly. You are a casual football player (plays in a local league) criticising professional football players and saying they are not professional players. You need to step back and look at this from a new point of view.

I don't give a rat's behind if someone chooses to take this path...it's their choice. But don't ask me to admire what they do, because I think behavior like that is destructive to the person and society in general since they are providing no real benefit to anyone or anything.

I don't choose it either. I also think there are other careers that do create more of a positive impact in the world. I think mine is one of them. I think being a professional gamer is not. But neither is being a CEO for a toy company or being a product manager for a snack food company yet these are all "professional" careers since these people do the actions i mention above to meet a goal and make money. Oh wait but winning a game is not a viable goal. I'm sorry.

Way to have a narrowminded point of view. Just because you decide not to walk a certain road doesn't make it wrong or not a valid pursuit. This issue of perspective is the cause behind debates like this up to older issues. Sure it was ok for racists in the past to treat some humans inequaly. All people are created equal but these folks don't consider all humans to be people. Take a step back, the goal of these folks may not be your goal, but its still something a group of people can work towards.

[Malthan]

Really are they, ok who is the 1st Chair Violinst for the Phil Harmonic Orchestra? or who won first chair in 1934? When happens when they finish playing and look back on their lives and realize that they did it all for nothing? No one will remember them hell once they stop playing what the "created" is gone.

I think you're wrong - thanks to modern ways of storing music people all around the world listen to them playing every day. And also they will probably never be forgotten, becouse even after a musician dies you can still listen to his recordings. Some even get more popular after their death. But who will remember the guild that first killed some mob after it disbands? And after 3 years? After 5? When WoW ends and people will move on to a new, better game? I think we can safely bet, that WoW will end sooner than music, do you agree?

When they look back at their lives, they can realize how much joy they gave to people, they can reflect on the beauty they have created, and even when they are too old to play, they can still listen to what they have left.

If it was so easy it wouldnt take time

Being easy doesn't have to mean quick. It's like gathering 100 000 stones - it's easy, but it would require a lot of time. WoW is designed in a way that's supposed to make you spend a lot of time on it, while not being too hard - that way the cash keeps comming in.

[roaming eye]

Wow...

Frankly, I'm let down by all of you bashing these people. You're elitist attitudes are rude and unnecessary and not in the spirit of this forum.

Regardless of your opinion, these people have chosen to do what they enjoy. They are not you. You are not them. You are not anyone to judge them, you have no right to do so. Bashing them as you have is hypocritical, stereotypical and elitist. Deny it all you want, but that will not change the truth. What they choose to do with their life has no affect on you. They have no negative impact in their surroundings by choosing to raid as intensely as this. At least they are not out drinking, doing drugs, or participcating in other illegal/harmful activities.

Lose the egos and get a grip on yourselves. This thread makes me sick.

Amen.

But bashing people who are 'different' will always hang around I am afraid .... Sadly.

[LucidSpirit]

Wow...

Frankly, I'm let down by all of you bashing these people. You're elitist attitudes are rude and unnecessary and not in the spirit of this forum.

Regardless of your opinion, these people have chosen to do what they enjoy. They are not you. You are not them. You are not anyone to judge them, you have no right to do so. Bashing them as you have is hypocritical, stereotypical and elitist. Deny it all you want, but that will not change the truth. What they choose to do with their life has no affect on you. They have no negative impact in their surroundings by choosing to raid as intensely as this. At least they are not out drinking, doing drugs, or participcating in other illegal/harmful activities.

Lose the egos and get a grip on yourselves. This thread makes me sick.


Eloquently put! Nice to see somebody standing up for the unnecessarily ridiculed :thumbsup:

[bwirum]

If it works for them, kudos for that.

It would never work for me as I don't have the time to put into it. They obviously do and choose to spend their time like that.

We should also remember, when talking about wastes of time and such, that 50 years ago playing sports all evening was not a "time spent well". Look now. Try to see 10, 15, 20 years ahead and predict what's going to happen to online gaming then.

May I be so bold as to direct you to this link here (http://armory.wow-europe.com/#arena-tournament-prizes.xml) stating the prizes for winning the WoW arena tourny? Not too shabby imo, and it's just a start. These sorts of tournys have been around for a while now in other games (Starcraft, Halo etc) and it's just going to get bigger and bigger and bigger.

Online gaming is as viable a goal in itself as many, many other things seen from a personal perspective.

So, if it works for them, great!

[Loriel]

$25k is a very nice price indeed, and it is imho justified for being the #1 rated Arena team in the world. I don't see this as any different from being #1 in any other sport, really.

However, the vast majority of players will never see any price money from this tournament, so like sponsored raiding guilds this only benefits something like 0.005% of the player base. Ofc we can't all make money off of this as we are both audience and participants at the same time. For players in the remaining 99.995% to stand any chance of earning money and prices from WoW, the game would have to find an audience outside of its own player base. I don't think that's going to happen any time soon, so for the vast majority of players the game will still remain a game, not an occupation. Which is not necessarily a bad thing..

As a sidebar for comparison, I once read a story about a guy in Chicago (iirc) who supported his family as a semi-professional Magic: The Gathering player. He didn't have a full-time job, and the majority of his time was spent travelling across the US to attend sponsored competitions. If he failed to make the cut, he would come home to his wife and kid empty handed - basically scoring a net loss for the trip.

I don't know .. I don't think I'd want that kind of pressure. In fact I'm sure I wouldn't. When a game becomes a full-time job, it loses a lot of its appeal - even more so if you have to win in order to pay your bills. I'll bet a large percentage of the professional gold farmers hate the time they spend in WoW, as it's simply a daily grind in 10-hour shifts, 6 days a week. I have absolutely no sympathy for the gold selling companies, but I do to a large degree feel for some of their employees. Grinding/farming is boring enough as it is, even if I do it voluntarily. I can't imagine having to do it all day, every day, for $0.50 an hour..

I still want my gaming time to be fun and entertaining, which is one of the many reasons why Nihilum shouldn't expect my application any time soon. But again no disrespect to them for what they do - it's their time and choice, and ultimately their lives. They should be free to do whatever they want without people judging them for it.

[Daidoji Sagara]

Just to chime in, can you imagine the horror of a full-time sports job?

Spending the whole of the year globe-trotting to several events with huge rewards for the top shot... And a meager compensation for the underdog. How must they feel when they come back home empty-handed, looking at the $ 10k+ for the trip they took...

Oh yeah, right, the big guns got their marketing contract, so they don't care much. Silly me :laugh:

/sarcasm off

[Xmcdaniel]

I'm pretty sure that all the people who most likely pay these players for input in writing game guides are a legitimate audience. As are the thousands that end up buying them. I'm sure people are pleanty entertained as well. L2 take a step back and get a new point of view.

You think these people are paid enough to sustain themselves because they raid dungeons in a game? And you say I need to gain some perspective?


I'll bet they make a decent amount of cash for this from who i mentioned in the begining of my post. If this is such an easy game why are these the only people who beat it rapidly and why does it take so much time? Its not that easy and requires a bunch of work. When you get 40 casual players and do the same thing as them with 1/4 of the time spent I'll agree that its easy.

With regard to cash, you are crazy if you think they're making "a decent amount of cash". Most of the stuff you need to know about raids and strategies can be easily found for free on the internet. And anyone, of any skill level, can do the exact same things they are doing if they dedicate the time to it. Remember, time =/= skill. Why is this such a difficult concept to understand? If I had the time to dedicate 60 hours a week to a game, I'd be in the same boat as them.

If it was so easy it wouldnt take time. I'm guessing you don't have any experience with getting a group of people to work together to do something using a limited set of tools. This is the fundimental idea behind creating new things, developing software, playing sports and thousands of other activities. The only difference is what goal and what tools.

Time =/= talent or skill...don't know why this keeps coming up, but you're wrong every single time.


Budgeting time to accomplish a goal and working at it is the definition of professionalism. Setting a clear set of requirements and working towards them are as well. Just because your definition may be limited in scope does not make your opinion right. I certainly can't dedicate myself to the same goal as these people but they do. These guys organize, do the prep work, communicate, plan and execute untill they succeed at this goal. Professional. The issue is here you don't respect their goal. A good thing to bring to light is that you belittle someone who takes your hobby and approaches it seriously and professionaly. You are a casual football player (plays in a local league) criticising professional football players and saying they are not professional players. You need to step back and look at this from a new point of view.

If you cannot sustain your lifestyle from what you earn from an activity...then that activity is a HOBBY. I don't need to look at it from a new point of view because it is exactly that. Some people apparently have the means to be able to play a game 50-60 hours a week. More power to them. But they are not professionals by any stretch of the imagination. I think you need to question your perspective on this issue.


I don't choose it either. I also think there are other careers that do create more of a positive impact in the world. I think mine is one of them. I think being a professional gamer is not. But neither is being a CEO for a toy company or being a product manager for a snack food company yet these are all "professional" careers since these people do the actions i mention above to meet a goal and make money. Oh wait but winning a game is not a viable goal. I'm sorry.

The CEO of the toy company and the product manager of a snack food company is earning a salary and properly supporting themselves and their family,that is a positive impact. A "Nihilum" guild member is not supporting anything with the supposed "decent cash" they are getting. Some of them may have jobs but the time commitment required for their guild would severely affect a normal person's ability to be effective in their RL job. I don't know if you go by dollars or pounds, but in terms of dollars, to be above the poverty line in the US you need to be earning $20,000+ per year. If you think that these "professionals- LOL" are making that from their participation in a WoW guild, then you should feel sorry for yourself.

Way to have a narrowminded point of view. Just because you decide not to walk a certain road doesn't make it wrong or not a valid pursuit. This issue of perspective is the cause behind debates like this up to older issues. Sure it was ok for racists in the past to treat some humans inequaly. All people are created equal but these folks don't consider all humans to be people. Take a step back, the goal of these folks may not be your goal, but its still something a group of people can work towards.

I don't have a narrowminded point of view. I have a utilitarian point of view. The reason I don't respect them for their accomplishments is because there is no socially redeeming value in what they do. At the same time...I don't care what an individual chooses to spend their time on. People are in this thread saying we should "respect" what they are doing. NO, I DON'T have to and I never will.

[Penny]

Wow...

Frankly, I'm let down by all of you bashing these people. You're elitist attitudes are rude and unnecessary and not in the spirit of this forum.

Regardless of your opinion, these people have chosen to do what they enjoy. They are not you. You are not them. You are not anyone to judge them, you have no right to do so. Bashing them as you have is hypocritical, stereotypical and elitist. Deny it all you want, but that will not change the truth. What they choose to do with their life has no affect on you. They have no negative impact in their surroundings by choosing to raid as intensely as this. At least they are not out drinking, doing drugs, or participcating in other illegal/harmful activities.

Lose the egos and get a grip on yourselves. This thread makes me sick.Makes you sick?!?

You'd not qualify for the guild then - from their guild app:

- You can take jokes. You must have a high 'abuse tolerance' - if you're a sensitive person, Nihilum is not for you.

From their application writeup, if you work for a living then the entirety of your non-working hours awake is spent playing a game that has no relevant real life equivalent.

People in this thread have used the comparison to violin players. I guess the difference is - expert violin players can perform expertly with $100 instruments. A WoW player with a level 70 character wearing blues and purples would absolutely NOT be able to accomplish the task were they given a level 1 naked character.

At one point I thought such achievements were laudable, then I read their app. I figured at least they were a close-knit group of friends who worked well together and did what they did for the love of the game. Reading their app it's clear that they just want people to do what 'they' say and stfu.

- You have Ventrilo and a headset with a microphone. It is prefered that you can talk, but it's not a requirement - as long you can listen.

They don't want to aid the player, gear him, etc. They want someone who already has been polished by another guild and don't want to make an investment at all in that players development. They don't care about the person, they care about the avatar.

SO, the one redeeming facet of that particular group of individuals that I could approve of .. doesn't exist. Don't cry tears for the way I see them, they don't care about you, me, or the rest of the WoW community. They care only about themselves which was VERY apparent after reading the guild application.

Don't judge them? Read their app again - they judge themselves. They're the 'elitists'...and their claim to fame is virtual...something that really doesn't have any existence in the real world...something that doesn't really exist.

[Altaris]

Penny,
All you've done is assume. Unless you have some experience with these people, which I doubt based on your posts, you have no idea what actually goes on in their guild. They have made their expectations very clear. I am confident there will be a great many people who actually apply. And I am equally confident they will find the person they are looking for, and that person will be happy when he joins this guild. You have no right to judge them. You have based your opinion of them on one post, a post which is intentionally aggressive, hard nosed and cold.

For all you know, this could be the most friendly guild you've ever met. Their "abuse" could just as easily be friendly pranks as we have seen in other threads on this very forum. Their "abuse" could simply be the jibes that friends give eachother when we slip up.

I wasn't going to continue posting in this thread, but you've only reinforced my post with your judgemental assumptions. This thread is full of negativity, speculations and accusations.

Get a perspective.

[Penny]

Penny,
All you've done is assume. Unless you have some experience with these people, which I doubt based on your posts, you have no idea what actually goes on in their guild. They have made their expectations very clear. I am confident there will be a great many people who actually apply. And I am equally confident they will find the person they are looking for, and that person will be happy when he joins this guild. You have no right to judge them. You have based your opinion of them on one post, a post which is intentionally aggressive, hard nosed and cold.

For all you know, this could be the most friendly guild you've ever met. Their "abuse" could just as easily be friendly pranks as we have seen in other threads on this very forum. Their "abuse" could simply be the jibes that friends give eachother when we slip up.

I wasn't going to continue posting in this thread, but you've only reinforced my post with your judgemental assumptions. This thread is full of negativity, speculations and accusations.

Get a perspective.I've not assumed a thing. I've taken what I've read from their application and critiqued it in a way you apparently disagree with.

I honestly believe the guild would agree with my critique concerning their interests. Then too, I don't believe they would care one whit.

My point is this: I posted using their own words and supplied opinion only on what was said. If they don't want people to form such opinions then they should follow their own advise and spend more than an hour writing up their application. My experience with such is limited to what they share, and the have shared. Read their app.

In my opinion, they've forwarded themselves as arrogant, opinionated and elitist after reading their app. Prior to that I thought they were merely socially isolated and overly obsessive about playing a particular computer game.

As a parent that has raised 5 kids to the age of maturity, I have experience I'll put up against anything you or they care to field. SO, if you want to challenge my opinion then do so, but I'd suggest you limit yourself to what they've advertised about themselves and NOT use conjecture.

Were I their parent, I'd tell them to put down the controller and go play outside. What they're doing isn't healthy. NOW, if you have experience you can claim to challenge my opinion, bring it to the table and we can discuss it.

[Ryste]

I've not assumed a thing. I've taken what I've read from their application and critiqued it in a way you apparently disagree with.

I honestly believe the guild would agree with my critique concerning their interests. Then too, I don't believe they would care one whit.

My point is this: I posted using their own words and supplied opinion only on what was said. If they don't want people to form such opinions then they should follow their own advise and spend more than an hour writing up their application. My experience with such is limited to what they share, and the have shared. Read their app.

In my opinion, they've forwarded themselves as arrogant, opinionated and elitist after reading their app. Prior to that I thought they were merely socially isolated and overly obsessive about playing a particular computer game.

As a parent that has raised 5 kids to the age of maturity, I have experience I'll put up against anything you or they care to field. SO, if you want to challenge my opinion then do so, but I'd suggest you limit yourself to what they've advertised about themselves and NOT use conjecture.

Were I their parent, I'd tell them to put down the controller and go play outside. What they're doing isn't healthy. NOW, if you have experience you can claim to challenge my opinion, bring it to the table and we can discuss it.

Any type of organization who accomplished anything requires people to listen. You don't see the NFL draft some street bump and develop him. They draft top College players. Just like any fortune 500 company won't hire someone without an-already-developed skill. You don't see someone without experience, degree and expertise to be the CEO of a company.

Personally I think you are more arrogant and more ignorant than Nihilum members.

You don't need a guild for any of the gear requirements in the application.

That's great you raised 5 kids, I suppose NONE of them are experts in anything because as a parent you would know to be an expert in anything, to be good in anything, you sacrify "healthy lifestyles".

I hope you sacrified some of your precious sleep hours when you were raising your newborn kids. 8 hours of sleep a night is healthy, I am sure every good parent weren't living healthy when they were raising their kids.

[Penny]

Any type of organization who accomplished anything requires people to listen. You don't see the NFL draft some street bump and develop him. They draft top College players. Just like any fortune 500 company won't hire someone without an-already-developed skill. You don't see someone without experience, degree and expertise to be the CEO of a company.

Personally I think you are more arrogant and more ignorant than Nihilum members.

You don't need a guild for any of the gear requirements in the application.

That's great you raised 5 kids, I suppose NONE of them are experts in anything because as a parent you would know to be an expert in anything, to be good in anything, you sacrify "healthy lifestyles".

I hope you sacrified some of your precious sleep hours when you were raising your newborn kids. 8 hours of sleep a night is healthy, I am sure every good parent weren't living healthy when they were raising their kids.Did I hit a nerve? Is that why you decided to make this a personal attack?

Interesting.

[Ryste]

Did I hit a nerve? Is that why you decided to make this a personal attack?

Interesting.

Not really a personal attack, no better or worse than when you said if you were parent of the Nihilum members.

Let me summarize it for you.

"To be best at anything, you sacrify healthy lifestyle." Simple concept really, I am surprise a parent of 5 kids doesn't know this.

[Penny]

Not really a personal attack, no better or worse than when you said if you were parents of the Nihilum members.

Let me summarize it for you.

"To be best at anything, you sacrify healthy lifestyle." Simple concept really, I am surprise a parent of 5 kids don't know this.Using "you" instead of "they" made it a personal attack. My critical analysis of a Nilhilum app was just that - a critical analysis of an application posted in order to attract analysis. Read the original post if you disagree with that.

Your personal attack was just that - a personal attack against me for my analysis of the posted information. Saying that it's not a personal attack just exacerbates the issue.

I could respond to you personally - or not.

I choose "not".

[Ryste]

Using "you" instead of "they" made it a personal attack. My critical analysis of a Nilhilum app was just that - a critical analysis of an application posted in order to attract analysis. Read the original post if you disagree with that.

Your personal attack was just that - a personal attack against me for my analysis of the posted information. Saying that it's not a personal attack just exacerbates the issue.

I could respond to you personally - or not.

I choose "not".

Take it as a personal attack as you will.

When you said:"In my opinion, they've forwarded themselves as arrogant, opinionated and elitist after reading their app. Prior to that I thought they were merely socially isolated and overly obsessive about playing a particular computer game." you are personally attacking the "Nihilum guild members" as well.

None the less, my point stands, "To be the best at anything, you sacrify healthy lifestyle."

[Altaris]

I, too, am a parent. And apparently one thing you've not learned is that being a parent doesn't make you any smarter or any better than anyone else. Is their post a put off? Yes. Is it arrogant? Yes. Would I ever apply? No. But do I come on here ranting, raving, hooting and hollering about their chosen activities? NO.

You are entitled to your opinion. But you're not entitled to come on here and trash these people for their chosen activity. You're posts were among the least negative, but you chose to reply to me and I do so in return.

I suggest you step off, step back and look at things from a different point of view. A.k.a. Get a perspectice.

To challenge me to bring my own experience to the table is simply rising to my own "perceived" challenged with an empty chamber. Mine own "perceived challenge" was in fact a question. Rather than simply assuming you do not possess the requisite knowledge that would make you fit to be so judgemental, I was putting forth the opportunity to show you did. However, you have shown yourself lacking in that department. Being a "parent" does not make you fit.

You assume I posted in their defense. You are wrong. You assume I disagree with your opinion of their post. You are, again, wrong. But I reiterate, you have no authority to pass judgement upon them.

At least they have the courtesy to set their expectations up front. You know NOTHING of these people, not how they do what they do, not who they are, nor what their guild relationships are like. You can deny it here, but we all know it for truth. You know nothing of these people, and yet you sit here and pass judgement upon them. You can justify it all you want, but it changes nothing. You can deny it all you want, but it remains truth.

Me? I choose to /threadquit than to continue reading this garbage.

[Penny]

what do you guys think of thisWhat part of the original post are people missing?

If you don't want to read opinions that disagree with yours...I'm not sure what you can do to help that, actually.

I can only make the observation that it sure seem that my opinions are being taken personally. If I would take an anonymous opinion on the internet so seriously as to make a personal verbal or written attack on the person that made it, I'd take a long hard look at my myself.

[poopsmcgee]

I hope you sacrified some of your precious sleep hours when you were raising your newborn kids. 8 hours of sleep a night is healthy, I am sure every good parent weren't living healthy when they were raising their kids.
just fyi to those who don't know, a fetus is a parasite when you get down to the brass tacks of it. many women go thru horrible effects of their pregnancy and it is very rough on their body to do such a thing. it doesn't just start with the lack of sleep while raising the child. but jeez this thread is just getting really stupid with comparing raising a child with playing wow lol. right after i read that i saw that cartoon pic in my head where the mother and father are playing wow and their children are running around hungry and dirty with the caption something like "mommy and daddy don't feed us anymore." thats a scary thought though of someone in that guild actually having a child they are supposed to be caring for.

[mesonm]

Me? I choose to /threadquit than to continue reading this garbage.

Undeniably, your opinion is as valuable as any other...

Going through a rant and then telling folks you are quitting the thread rather than " to continue to reading [others] garbage..."....exhibits a very closed mind perspective.

If we all step back and take the personal nature out, there are some very good points being made on both sides.

[PTiger]

Undeniably, your opinion is as valuable as any other...

Going through a rant and then telling folks you are quitting the thread rather than " to continue to reading [others] garbage..."....exhibits a very closed mind perspective.

If we all step back and take the personal nature out, there are some very good points being made on both sides.

Agreed Mesonm,

This thread is a fascinating look into the psyche of the modern MMO player, and how he/she views him/herself in relation to other "hobbies" in the world today.

[bxlane]

From the OP and the guild application, how else can one judge an "elite" guild, other than how they condone themselves in writing? One has to make assumptions because we are not in the guild.

Penny has every right to make assumptions and judgements based off of what was written. They could be spot on, or completely wrong. Whether it is right or not does not matter. What matters is all we have is this application.

As a reiteration, the OP asked what we thought. And if i recall, an opinion is a thought.

[Penny]

PTiger, I understand your position and agree, with a caveat - compromise is the only way two dissimilar opinions can coexist within the same sphere of influence.

Escapism - 'the avoidance of reality by absorption of the mind in entertainment or in an imaginative situation, activity, etc.' - doesn't lend itself to social acceptance. By definition, if that's the way you want to spend your time, it precludes social interaction....and no, hanging with a bunch of people that do just one thing to the exclusion of all other activities doesn't count as social interaction.

'Getting in touch with reality' requires someone to interact with society and learn to co-exist harmoniously and share MANY interests, . Someone playing video games 100% of their discretionary time is purposefully choosing to be a social outcast...again, by definition.

In my opinion, video gamers too easily fall into a clique. There's a lot of things to do out there... places to go, people to meet. If gamers want to be accepted then they'll have to meet on a common ground.

I personally have absolutely 0 interest in sports, for example, yet I enjoy spending several hours a day unwinding by sitting in my easy chair, watching TV on the big screen and running my little man through the hills of outland on the little screen. You'd think I would get points for that, wouldn't you? Nope, doesn't happen.

YET - when asked by my spouse to go anywhere, do anything - I jump at the chance, 100% of the time. I've NEVER said "No, I want to play". I don't play on weekends usually, using that time to hang with my spouse and engage with whatever activity is scheduled.

If you spent 100% of your time with ANYTHING to the exclusion of everything else, you're going to get the same reaction. Want change? Then, you've got to change. Don't expect anyone else to.

[mesonm]

YET - when asked by my spouse to go anywhere, do anything - I jump at the chance, 100% of the time. I've NEVER said "No, I want to play". I don't play on weekends usually, using that time to hang with my spouse and engage with whatever activity is scheduled.


Never?? You are a much better spouse than I. There are several places my wife has desired to go in the many years we've been married where I've declined to go....

Has nothing to do with a game...

She has friends to go to those places with. Coincidentally, I have places I go sometimes where she'd rather not go...

And...Plenty of places we go together.

[GreenPez]

At one point I thought such achievements were laudable, then I read their app. I figured at least they were a close-knit group of friends who worked well together and did what they did for the love of the game. Reading their app it's clear that they just want people to do what 'they' say and stfu.



They don't want to aid the player, gear him, etc. They want someone who already has been polished by another guild and don't want to make an investment at all in that players development. They don't care about the person, they care about the avatar.




here's the problem, you've taken a quote from their app. (i'm not aware of how to include the quote you quoted but it was in between the 2 paragraphs i quoted from you above (make sense? :) )) and taken it the wrong way, at least i think. you're taking that to mean that ppl should just "listen and stfu". i take it to mean that most of the communication on raids occurs through vent (not uncommon) and you'll need to be able to at least listen to whats being communicated.

i'm not trying to pile on. I just think maybe you have a viewpoint about guilds of this nature and are over-applying it. this guild may very well be like that, but the quote you used doesnt support that.

[Penny]

Never?? You are a much better spouse than I. There are several places my wife has desired to go in the many years we've been married where I've declined to go....

Has nothing to do with a game...

She has friends to go to those places with. Coincidentally, I have places I go sometimes where she'd rather not go...

And...Plenty of places we go together.Nope, never. Then again, this is my third marriage and I've learned a thing or two...mainly, when a spouse asks you to go somewhere it means they don't want to go alone. Since the opposite of marriage is being alone, then to be married means you go with them when they ask.here's the problem, you've taken a quote from their app. (i'm not aware of how to include the quote you quoted but it was in between the 2 paragraphs i quoted from you above (make sense? :) )) and taken it the wrong way, at least i think. you're taking that to mean that ppl should just "listen and stfu".I considered that option then discarded it when they expressed their stipulations that the person applying can't be an annoying person, under 18, waste their time, "People that can't pay attention shouldnt apply to us", etc. They want someone to fill a very exacting criteria... I don't blame them, I just feel such criteria in the selection of a video game player indicates a level of obsession that isn't healthy. It places too much attention on a virtual accomplishment that doesn't have any real world equivalence.

Be a scout leader. Be a big brother. Get out of the house. Play a game of ball with your kid. Take a girl out for a date. Read a book.

ANYTHING you do that takes 100% of your discretionary time isn't healthy. That isn't limited to video games, it's ANY discretionary activity.

[poopsmcgee]

penny if ur 3rd doesn't work out, i think u need to try on the mcgee name LOL.

[shifttusk]

<<ith regard to cash, you are crazy if you think they're making "a decent amount of cash". Most of the stuff you need to know about raids and strategies can be easily found for free on the internet. And anyone, of any skill level, can do the exact same things they are doing if they dedicate the time to it. Remember, time =/= skill. Why is this such a difficult concept to understand? If I had the time to dedicate 60 hours a week to a game, I'd be in the same boat as them.>>

Ok, so lets look at this. The information is on the internet. Posted by a company/website/person who releases information on how to beat video games. He gets this information from the first players who succeeded in completing this. He gets this information from them by paying. These people are guilds like the one who posted this app. They get money for it.

This information doenst grow on trees it comes from their work.

[Cow Vs The World]

ANYTHING you do that takes 100% of your discretionary time isn't healthy. That isn't limited to video games, it's ANY discretionary activity.

Bull. What you are talking about isn't "healthiness", it's your opinion of what is a desirable lifestyle. It really doesn't matter if a person does one activity during all their spare time or if they pursue the ideal of being a renaissance man, as long as they die happy with how they spent their life then there is nothing wrong with it.

[Penny]

Bull. What you are talking about isn't "healthiness", it's your opinion of what is a desirable lifestyle. It really doesn't matter if a person does one activity during all their spare time or if they pursue the ideal of being a renaissance man, as long as they die happy with how they spent their life then there is nothing wrong with it.Bull? I guess if I just make up definitions and meanings willy-nilly, then someone could make that accusation and it would be difficult to defend my assertion - but I haven't.Definition of health accepted by the WHO in 1946

“Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social wellbeing and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.”

(Preamble of the constitution of the WHO, 1948) Physical, mental and social wellbeing are necessary for a healthy lifestyle, and how one dies isn't in the equation at all. Happy is, at best, 2/3rds of the story, according to the world health organization. You may believe it's an appeal to authority, but.. it IS the authority, so that argument is irrelevant.

[Aswer]

Well at least this thread serves one purpose, we can pick the negative, disgruntled losers who bash on others that have not done them any harm or who they've had no contact with whatsoever, and on the other hand people that give respect to those that are ready to pursue a goal in life, however different from their own goals it may be. You all know who you are.

[Daidoji Sagara]

Aaah Aswer, you should have been more nebulous! Then everyone could believe they were one or the other, depending on their mood!

Now THAT would have been witty :grin:

At least now we can pick those who merely want to waste their time trying to defend an absurd point from those who tries against all odds to educate the former about the true state of the world.

See? :wink:

[roaming eye]

There is an interesting pattern you see coming back a lot. Taken into the extreme the general notion seems to be that anybody that plays online games more then 'casual' must be a nerdy, unhealthy, asocial teen living in his/her moms basement.
That is understandable as the popular picture is a spotty teen sitting behind a screen all night while 'you could have done something usefull'.

Look it at from another perspective for a change.
Online gaming is replacing the tv.

Instead of flicking the tv on at 7-ish and watching that for 5 hours before hitting the sack, for 3-5 nights a week (assuming the other nights you sport or go out or something), many people now sit behind the PC 3-5 nights a week. Doing interactive things, meeting people online, using their brain.......
somebody stop them! :shocked:

Also, the social aspect in MMO's often becomes more important over time then the game itself. Notice how often Wow guilds collaps after some 'key people' leave? The social structures are what keeps people coming online.
From a social standpoint it is also an interesting development. Most people already have 'friendcircles' consisting of family, old/schoolfriends, sportmates ect and now add a new friendcircle with online friends. With the added twist that many of those are likely from other countries and thus they get into contact with different cultures and opinions.
I think many people who are not heavy into online gaming don't know of these 'effects' of online gaming or choose to ignore them.

Also internet/online gaming sometimes makes it easier to find like-minded people who are hard to find IRL. For an example the christian WoW guilds which were talked about a few months ago. Likeminded people finding each other and doing something together they all enjoy. Good for them.

Now, also a strange thing with human people is they all seem to have different values and opinions. What is enjoyable or desirable to one is totally insane or repulsive to the other. Coupled with their personal situation, where we in general are totally oblivious about, some people do things that can totally baffle others as they struggle to with their own values and organisation of their lives. The trick is ofc that you don't need to....

Now I am purposaly pulling this a bit long (and am overexagerating ofc) but I am getting to my point. No really :smiley:.

So let's go back to the defenition which was so kindly posted;

“Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social wellbeing and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.”

So, if we take a person who likes to play online games 'hardcore', has a personal life which permits the time investment involved, and does that with likeminded people he considers friends he must be a very healthy being. :rolleyes:

The 'trap' here is that we (automatically) assume that in order to do 'hardcore gaming' at the level of Nihilum that they have to 'sacrifice' all other social / outdoor / sport ect activities. We don;t know that.

Be a scout leader. Be a big brother. Get out of the house. Play a game of ball with your kid. Take a girl out for a date. Read a book.QUOTE]

Who said that they don't?
But let's not go further in that.


I want to touch on the bashing / respect / disrespect ect thingy instead.
Considering the above points I personally think it is great that people setting high goals for themselves in an area where they like to excell. It is a healthy (:wink:) and commendable thing. As someone put so nicely;

[QUOTE]The requirements are from a group of people who have pushed the concept of bleeding edge raiding to its utter limits, dont judge them for doing that, it's their choice.

That such a goal is far removed from mine/your personal goals doesn't matter that much. But what I don't understand is that stepping in and 'defending these people opinions' upsets people.

People are in this thread saying we should "respect" what they are doing. NO, I DON'T have to and I never will.

Indeed, you don't have to respect them for their goals and achievements. But on the other hand you don't have to disrepect them for it aswell. Just accept you have different views and refrain from bashing them. That's it.

[Telmar]

Be a scout leader. Be a big brother. Get out of the house. Play a game of ball with your kid. Take a girl out for a date. Read a book.

Who said that they don't?
But let's not go further in that.

I agree with this entirely. Im fed up of people bashing on me for playing hardcore, calling me a 'no-life nerd' etc. I have a well adjusted social life, I play games with my university friends who live further away from me than is conveniant to visit in the evenings, I also go to the pub and hang out with my mates who live close by. I work a 9-5 job, managing a team of insurance claims reviewers. I have a gf, who I've been with for 5 years now, who doesnt have a problem with me playing WoW rather than watching tv and going to the pub. I go out on my bike during the day at weekends, I spend alot of my time reading (just finished George R.R. Martin Ice and Fire series :D).

However, I also raid 'hardcore'. Its not on Nihilums level, I raid maybe 4-5 nights a week, for 5-6 hours a time. I do this on a regular basis, and fit in other activities around it. I run a succesful guild, working on Morogrim, I lead our raids, and Im normally top of the damage meters. I manage this via PLANNING MY TIME. Its not a complicated concept, is it?

If Im playing, my gf is generally working on her coursework for her PGCE (teacher training degree), or planning lessons. If my mates are going to the pub, I'll generally raid from 6-10 uk time, then get someone in to replace me, and go to the pub for a drink with them too before it closes.

I make my gold by playing the AH for 10 minutes a day before i go to bed, and thankfully I can get by fine on 6-7 hours sleep a night, so if we overrun a little, then I'm fine at work the next day. So no real consumable farming issues there, i just buy them.

If I had a kid, I'd have to quit though. I dont think anyone can be a good parent and play at anything above a very casual level. Im sure there will be people that disagree (probably the ones with kids), but I dont feel its a good example to set a child (who needs alot more exercise than you do remember) and it takes away time from when you could be getting to know them.

[Penny]

It's all well and good that people can justify their obsession and all, but the topic of the thread was the application in the first post.

That application suggested very strongly that the requirements were for a total devotion to the game. They preferred 7 days of raiding for up to 12 hrs a day, attendance at every raid, farming for consumables, little to no afk's, and only apply if you plan on being able to continue this schedule for a long time, players only interested in joining for a couple of months need not apply. They want you to play for as long as THEY want to play.

Now, for those that have described a schedule that isn't as strictly devoted to playing the game to this extent, great! You may or may not have a life! It's not guaranteed, but if you're not as fixated as these folks obviously are, you've still got a chance. I suggest taking it.

Nope, there's no doubt about it. If you schedule your life around a game to the extent described in the application, it's unhealthy.

[Telmar]

Nope, there's no doubt about it. If you schedule your life around a game to the extent described in the application, it's unhealthy.

Say for example the hobby in question was cycling, instead of WoW. Does it then become 'unhealthy' to be that obsessed? How about something like Chess? Or playing Poker?

See what Im saying here?

[roaming eye]

Again the negative tone. 'obsession', 'unhealthy' ect. Sigh. Why?

Yes these people are different from you and I. (Imagine that :shocked:)

Now do something really spooky and try very hard to not instantly see this in a negative light..... Read the application post, marvel at the determintaion asked for. Decide it is not for you and me, post that your personal life would never allow that and you don't even want too, and move on.
Life remains wonderfull for everybody :cloud9:

They are not making you or anyone apply with them, they are just looking for kindred souls and possible new friends. With thousands of WoW players they actually find likeminded people. Amazing. Good for them.
Calling them obsessed, unhealthy or whatever is just labeling in my eyes. Why the negativity? Why the 'no real life allowed' comments?
To me this feels a bit like 'Look there is the kid with he red hair, let's all throw mud at him and laugh.' and I hate that kind of thing.

Well at least this thread serves one purpose, we can pick the negative, disgruntled (edit) people who bash on others that have not done them any harm or who they've had no contact with whatsoever, and on the other hand people that give respect to those that are ready to pursue a goal in life, however different from their own goals it may be.

Bit blunt but.....
Amen

Anyways, I feel I am droning now....

Edit; typo's due to lack of smilies :wink3:

[Penny]

Say for example the hobby in question was cycling, instead of WoW. Does it then become 'unhealthy' to be that obsessed? How about something like Chess? Or playing Poker?

See what Im saying here?I sure do, and yes, it would still be unhealthy.

You know what happens to people that exercize all the time? Sterility.
Chess and poker? physically undemanding activities don't provide the exercise you need.

There's no way it can be rationalized, unless you get a balance in your lifestyle it's not a healthy lifestyle, and the more unbalanced it is, the less healthy it is.Why the negativity? Why the 'no real life allowed' comments?Because I was asked to share my thoughts on the subject. Apparently some feel the thoughts of others are a threat so they attack. Go figure.

[Foonyak]

So Penny, which thoughts here are so threatening to you that you can't accept that these people choose not to live by your standards, and that you feel you have to attack them for their choices?

[Penny]

So Penny, which thoughts here are so threatening to you that you can't accept that these people choose not to live by your standards, and that you feel you have to attack them for their choices?Threatening to me? I haven't a care in the world for the lifestyle of a group of people I'll never meet. They could play Russian Roulette for all I care. I've not attacked any lifestyle, I've shared expert opinion on what constitutes health (my post of the WHO definition of 'health') and offered my personal analysis that dedicating oneself to a video game to the extent suggested by an application shown in the first post wouldn't qualify as healthy when compared to the expert opinion.

My opinion was asked for and I offered it. Personal attacks followed... which I attribute to people feeling threatened. Why else would someone level a personal attack for someone expressing their opinion when asked?

[bxlane]

Penny has valid points all. I guarantee with the recent (i.e. past 5 years) explosion of gaming popularity, there are universities/scientists/study groups looking into the "health" of these people.

From a gamer perspective, I cannot see how "excessive" gaming can be healthy. Read anything online about Television viewing (hence the term Couch Potato). It will basically say balance watching TV with exercise/other activities. Now substitute "TV' with "Computer gaming" and its the same thing.

Im not saying that gaming is bad. Sure you are interacting, typing, learning computer stuff. Im saying that excessive gaming, with the term still loosely defined, is NOT a healthy lifestyle. Period. Unbalance in the three (mental,physical,emotional) is unhealthy, as defined by WHO. Now, what that balance is differs from person to person. But I ask you, is an average of 12 hours a day in front of a computer balanced? When half of your day is devoted to a computer screen, is something now lacking? Maybe. Maybe not.

Im surprised at how many people are challenging Penny's views. Just because Penny is standing up doesnt mean Penny is wrong, or that there arent others who share the same viewpoint.

[mesonm]

My opinion was asked for and I offered it. Personal attacks followed... which I attribute to people feeling threatened. Why else would someone level a personal attack for someone expressing their opinion when asked?


I am equally confused...Penny seemed to be providing an opinion, as requested.

I share some similar views, and will not hesitate to express them.

Many people in forums like this can't easily express a difference of opinion without it becoming a personal focused attack on the person providing the first opinion.

Perhaps all of us should try to work on that...

'tis true that the activities of people who play WOW 10+ hours a day, every day are not likely to touch my life much...I couldn't care less if they do it...unless it is my kid....

But, even if I couldn't care less if they do it, I can still provide an opinion that I don't think its a good thing to do, right?

[Xmcdaniel]

Any type of organization who accomplished anything requires people to listen. You don't see the NFL draft some street bump and develop him. They draft top College players. Just like any fortune 500 company won't hire someone without an-already-developed skill. You don't see someone without experience, degree and expertise to be the CEO of a company.

Personally I think you are more arrogant and more ignorant than Nihilum members.

You don't need a guild for any of the gear requirements in the application.

That's great you raised 5 kids, I suppose NONE of them are experts in anything because as a parent you would know to be an expert in anything, to be good in anything, you sacrify "healthy lifestyles".

I hope you sacrified some of your precious sleep hours when you were raising your newborn kids. 8 hours of sleep a night is healthy, I am sure every good parent weren't living healthy when they were raising their kids.

Please stop comparing World of Warcraft players who have a lot of time on their hands to truly talented and skilled people like NFL football players who make a living off of said talent and skill. You're insulting my intelligence.

[Xmcdaniel]

You are entitled to your opinion. But you're not entitled to come on here and trash these people for their chosen activity.

Original thread post:

"what do you guys think of this"

Altaris...what exactly did you expect when you read the first post in this thread?

A.k.a. Get a perspectice

LOL...Do you understand the definition of perspective? Everyone's perspective is different in some way.

I think what you meant to say is "A.k.a. Get MY perspective", which is pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

[Foonyak]

Sorry for accusing you of attacking them and their hardcore bretheren; I had misread one of your posts, in particular, these two parts:
want people to do what 'they' say and stfu.<snip>They're the 'elitists'

It is kind of hard to believe, though, that you can form such an opinion of a group of people that you've never met. How can you be certain that they're living an unhealthy, unbalanced lifestyle? As someone else pointed out earlier, you've based your entire opinion of their lifestyle on assumptions you've made by reading their application, without having met these people in person and seeing what kind of lifestyle they're actually living.

Yes, their application suggests these things, but if you look at it from another perspective, it can suggest others as well.

Over eighteen suggests to me that they're living on their own, which in turn suggests to me that they are able to keep a job. Paying bills gets expensive.

The time devotion that they require suggests to me that the majority of their jobs are either work-from-home positions or they're wealthy enough to not have to work.

The 'high abuse' tolerance suggests to me that they're typical young men. Perverse and verbally abusive to their friends, and especially to people that can't carry their own weight.

"It is prefered that you can talk, but it's not a requirement - as long you can listen." This suggests to me that as polished as the applicant's skills are, this is the pro level. Similar to coming up from the minors to start for the Yankees, just stfu until you know what we want and expect from you.

Of course, I could generalize and say, 'Ehh...they're pasty, pimpled geeks living in their parents' basement.' But I've learned not to form opinions of people until I know them, or know for a fact a that what they're doing is not beneficial to society at large.

Im surprised at how many people are challenging Penny's views. Just because Penny is standing up doesnt mean Penny is wrong, or that there arent others who share the same viewpoint.

I'm not...her views on the situation, if her opinions of the Nihilum players are correct, are spot on. It's the negative light that other's are perceiving in her posts that they have an issue with, as it may or may not reflect on them in a negative light based on their play time. I merely have an issue with how she's drawn her opinions.

[mesonm]

Please stop comparing World of Warcraft players who have a lot of time on their hands to truly talented and skilled people like NFL football players who make a living off of said talent and skill. You're insulting my intelligence.

If skilled WOW players made a living off of WOW, would that change your mind?

Which criteria is most important to you?


Over eighteen suggests to me that they're living on their own, which in turn suggests to me that they are able to keep a job.

I have an 18yr old...It suggest substantially different things to me. They are LIKELY to be living with parents, and likely don't work full time.

[Penny]

Sorry for accusing you of attacking them and their hardcore bretheren; I had misread one of your posts, in particular, these two parts:


It is kind of hard to believe, though, that you can form such an opinion of a group of people that you've never met. How can you be certain that they're living an unhealthy, unbalanced lifestyle? As someone else pointed out earlier, you've based your entire opinion of their lifestyle on assumptions you've made by reading their application, without having met these people in person and seeing what kind of lifestyle they're actually living.

Yes, their application suggests these things, but if you look at it from another perspective, it can suggest others as well.

Over eighteen suggests to me that they're living on their own, which in turn suggests to me that they are able to keep a job. Paying bills gets expensive.

The time devotion that they require suggests to me that the majority of their jobs are either work-from-home positions or they're wealthy enough to not have to work.

The 'high abuse' tolerance suggests to me that they're typical young men. Perverse and verbally abusive to their friends, and especially to people that can't carry their own weight.

"It is prefered that you can talk, but it's not a requirement - as long you can listen." This suggests to me that as polished as the applicant's skills are, this is the pro level. Similar to coming up from the minors to start for the Yankees, just stfu until you know what we want and expect from you.

Of course, I could generalize and say, 'Ehh...they're pasty, pimpled geeks living in their parents' basement.' But I've learned not to form opinions of people until I know them, or know for a fact a that what they're doing is not beneficial to society at large.



I'm not...her views on the situation, if her opinions of the Nihilum players are correct, are spot on. It's the negative light that other's are perceiving in her posts that they have an issue with, as it may or may not reflect on them in a negative light based on their play time. I merely have an issue with how she's drawn her opinions.Ah... you have formed the opinion that I'm female because of what you've read. Very telling.

I'm not female. Reasearch shows that a "Penny" was the first currency of any type authorized by the United States...and one was sitting on my desk when I was asked what user name to use when I signed up for this account. It was a totally random selection. I guess I could have requested "Swingline Stapler" or "Phone", perhaps even "Mug o' Coffee", but I picked "Penny". Then there's the motto - E PLURIBUS UNUM, which means "One out of Many." I kinda like that...

SO, you read what I write and form an opinion. I read what they wrote and formed an opinion. It is kind of hard to believe, though, that you can form such an opinion of a group of people that you've never met.People form opinions from what they read. When in an information void, it's all they have to go on.

Hence my analysis of the lifestyle of the hardest of the hard core players...one based on what they've written.

[Foonyak]

Touche...sort of. It's not an opinion I formed of you. It was an incorrect assumption drawn upon the only information I had regarding your gender, which was your forum name, and no amount of research on the word 'penny' I could've done would've indicated to me whether or not you were a man.

Very similar, and yet not. I didn't form any opinion of what type of lifestyle you lead, how un/successful you may be, or whether or not you're a good person. I took a stab in the dark at your gender, not judge you for any choices you've made.

I suppose I could've asked, but in the context of this discussion, gender is irrelevant. I do apologize for not asking beforehand, but it doesn't change anything, in the context of this discussion, that I incorrectly referred to you as a woman.

People form opinions from what they read. When in an information void, it's all they have to go on.

And when they disagree with, or dislike, what they are reading, it's very common for those opinions to be jaded, as opposed to being open-minded opinions, allowing for variables that are unexpected. You'll probably point out the last phrase of the previous sentence and say something to the effect that I should have allowed for the unexpected variable that a man may choose the name 'Penny' for a forum handle, but assumptions and opinions are, again, similar but not the same.

Also, when you didn't publicly correct this:
penny if ur 3rd doesn't work out, i think u need to try on the mcgee name LOL.
Making that false assumption was not a very hard mistake.

[Xmcdaniel]

If skilled WOW players made a living off of WOW, would that change your mind?

No, because success in WoW is not related to skill, it's related to how much time you sink into it. I highly doubt that, other than the comprehensive guide publishers, members of a particular guild make a living JUST by playing WoW. If someone could provide evidence that there is a WoW player that makes over $20,000 per year just by raiding and farming mats for raids, I'm game to continue the discussion.


Making that false assumption was not a very hard mistake.

Hey, hey, hey...who's to say that poopsmcgee isn't a female? LOL

[gmedina]

Threatening to me? I haven't a care in the world for the lifestyle of a group of people I'll never meet. They could play Russian Roulette for all I care. I've not attacked any lifestyle, I've shared expert opinion on what constitutes health (my post of the WHO definition of 'health') and offered my personal analysis that dedicating oneself to a video game to the extent suggested by an application shown in the first post wouldn't qualify as healthy when compared to the expert opinion.

My opinion was asked for and I offered it. Personal attacks followed... which I attribute to people feeling threatened. Why else would someone level a personal attack for someone expressing their opinion when asked?

There is a difference btw offering your opinion and insulting others. When my wife asks me does this dress make me look fat? She is asking my opinion, does this mean that i should respond and say "yes and it is ugly and infact you look horrible in that dress. I mean really ugly". When she gets upset can i respond as penny has and say "hey you asked for my opinion if you didn't want it don't ask" I wonder how that would work out????

Jus because your opinion was asked for doesn't mean you should be eliteist and insulting to others, which you did. That is what everyone was up in arms about. Not that you shared your opinion.

[mesonm]

No, because success in WoW is not related to skill, it's related to how much time you sink into it. I highly doubt that, other than the comprehensive guide publishers, members of a particular guild make a living JUST by playing WoW. If someone could provide evidence that there is a WoW player that makes over $20,000 per year just by raiding and farming mats for raids, I'm game to continue the discussion.


I agree that unskilled (in all respects) WOW players are much less likely to make money in the game, but disagree that success in WOW is ENTIRELY how much time you put in.

People with nothing than WOW in their calendar, but who have no people skills, and who have hopeless eye hand coordination will fail miserably in WOW (depending on your measure of success, I suppose) as compared to those who have such skills and play much less.

Listening and actually executing instructions ARE valuable skills, and are likely exhibited by the "shut up and do what we say" types of guilds...

[Ryste]

No, because success in WoW is not related to skill, it's related to how much time you sink into it. I highly doubt that, other than the comprehensive guide publishers, members of a particular guild make a living JUST by playing WoW. If someone could provide evidence that there is a WoW player that makes over $20,000 per year just by raiding and farming mats for raids, I'm game to continue the discussion.




Hey, hey, hey...who's to say that poopsmcgee isn't a female? LOL

Everything in this world relates to time, time enhances skill to a certain level. Time is not the only ingredient, but one can not be successful in anything without invest an obssessive amounts of time. Please don't insult my intelligence otherwise.

Do you see Michael Jordan practiced for only 30 minutes a day and be as great as he was?

Also, one out of hundreds of thousands pro-players (the best) get pick by the pro leagues. Do people tell the 99% who failed to make it, they wasted their time? I can guarantee many of them spent just as much time on the practice floor as the ones who made it to the pros.

Oh and people somehow think because they are doing physical activities, they are healthy, so somehow they are better than some WoW players. Another mis-conception.

Ask anyone who's great in anything, nobel price winners; NFL champions; WoW players who accomplishes world first kills; olympic gold medalists, they all sacrfice aspects of their life to be great. They are unhealthy in different ways. One thing in common though, they all spent obssessive amounts of time on things they enjoy doing.

[Penny]

Touche...sort of. It's not an opinion I formed of you. It was an incorrect assumption drawn upon the only information I had regarding your gender, which was your forum name, and no amount of research on the word 'penny' I could've done would've indicated to me whether or not you were a man.

Very similar, and yet not. I didn't form any opinion of what type of lifestyle you lead, how un/successful you may be, or whether or not you're a good person. I took a stab in the dark at your gender, not judge you for any choices you've made.

I suppose I could've asked, but in the context of this discussion, gender is irrelevant. I do apologize for not asking beforehand, but it doesn't change anything, in the context of this discussion, that I incorrectly referred to you as a woman.



And when they disagree with, or dislike, what they are reading, it's very common for those opinions to be jaded, as opposed to being open-minded opinions, allowing for variables that are unexpected. You'll probably point out the last phrase of the previous sentence and say something to the effect that I should have allowed for the unexpected variable that a man may choose the name 'Penny' for a forum handle, but assumptions and opinions are, again, similar but not the same.

Also, when you didn't publicly correct this:

Making that false assumption was not a very hard mistake.Opinion - A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proofHad the person that wrote the application signed it "Penny", I'd not fault you for making an assumption that the person was female. After all, it IS the diminutive form of the name Penelope as well as the common name for the US cent coin (which is the actual origin of my username).

But that's not what they supplied. They supplied a framework for their applicant that indicated the schedule they would be expected to adopt to make a successful member of their guild. My analysis was based on everything they wrote because the person that started the thread asked for me to read the application and offer one.

I HAVE an open minded opinion about these things. I play video games and have ever since they were invented. I have a level 70 WoW character as well as several characters at lower levels. I own a X-Box, a PS2 and several games for the PC. I'm not critical of video games, I don't think they cause violence, and I spend several hours playing them every week. I also spend several hours a week engaged in family activity in and outside my home, exercising, reading and a significant period of time working so I can continue doing those things.

If you described for me a lifestyle where an individual was totally engrossed in work and asked for my opinion, I'd say that they didn't have a healthy lifestyle. Same as ANYthing where a single activity predominates someone's life. It's not healthy.

And Ryste? Put Michael Jordan in $10 shoes and some cheap gym clothes and he'd be as good as he is in his chosen attire. Put Nihilum in greens and they'd not be able to achieve the same accomplishments they do today - the difference ... the ONLY difference ... would be directly attributed to time and nothing else. The time to farm to get the purples or whatever.

I've played games too long to have any other opinion - you play the level until you figure out how to beat it then you go on to the next. In WoW, it's all about gear, level, talent points and time...lots of time, time for trial and error to lead to success.

[mesonm]

I HAVE an open minded opinion about these things. I play video games and have ever since they were invented.

<snip>

I don't think they cause violence.

1. Pong? I thought I was the only one here who witnessed the birth of video games.

Text-based star-trek over two Unix systems FTW

2. They most certainly cause violence...I try to beat up my computer whenever I miss hitting a button and my lock dies as a result. :grin:


<disclaimer: The above is HUMOR.>

[PTiger]

If you described for me a lifestyle where an individual was totally engrossed in work and asked for my opinion, I'd say that they didn't have a healthy lifestyle. Same as ANYthing where a single activity predominates someone's life. It's not healthy.

So the big question...Do you find all professional athletes to be unhealthy?

A typical pro-athlete will practice, play a game, work out, eat well, do a photo shoot, go to bed early, pretty much use his entire 24 hour day in preparation of his profession. Is every single professional athlete unhealthy?

[mesonm]

So the big question...Do you find all professional athletes to be unhealthy?

A typical pro-athlete will practice, play a game, work out, eat well, do a photo shoot, go to bed early, pretty much use his entire 24 hour day in preparation of his profession. Is every single professional athlete unhealthy?

Interesting...You start out with 'typical', then narrow it to EVERY....

If a person does EVERY 24 hour period with JUST what you say, day in, day out...I'll bite...Its unhealthy...

On the other hand, I know several prof. Athletes, and they have some days that focus on game prep, and many that do not...they have social lives, etc....

Their days are rarely ALL of one thing or another.

They also have off-seasons...Quite different than what you seem to suggest.

Are you seriously interested? Or are you baiting Penny?

:grin:

[poopsmcgee]

dang yet again i have proposed to another male lol. i gotta quit that. and just fyi, i still have a 1977 solid state pong from sears in my closet. it works too.

[Ryste]

Interesting...You start out with 'typical', then narrow it to EVERY....

If a person does EVERY 24 hour period with JUST what you say, day in, day out...I'll bite...Its unhealthy...

On the other hand, I know several prof. Athletes, and they have some days that focus on game prep, and many that do not...they have social lives, etc....

Their days are rarely ALL of one thing or another.

They also have off-seasons...Quite different than what you seem to suggest.

Are you seriously interested? Or are you baiting Penny?

:grin:

There are pro athletes, and then there are pro athletes breaking records, setting new bars for everyone else.

There are guilds who can kill gruul, there are guilds who can farm gruul. In this thread content, when we are talking about nihilum, they are equivalent to those athletes who set records for everyone else to follow.

[trudelle]

And Ryste? Put Michael Jordan in $10 shoes and some cheap gym clothes and he'd be as good as he is in his chosen attire. Put Nihilum in greens and they'd not be able to achieve the same accomplishments they do today - the difference ... the ONLY difference ... would be directly attributed to time and nothing else. The time to farm to get the purples or whatever.

Actually I thought Nihilum accomplished its full Karazhan clear and Gruul's wearing mostly quest rewards and 5man blues.

IMO there are players that if you put them in full greens will still accomplish things an average player in full purples cannot. There is a point where gear/time can make up for skill, but I dont see it going above someone with dedication and skill.

My statement about Nihilum may be totally wrong, as that is just what I recall.

[Foonyak]

Had the person that wrote the application signed it "Penny", I'd not fault you for making an assumption that the person was female. After all, it IS the diminutive form of the name Penelope as well as the common name for the US cent coin (which is the actual origin of my username).

Every post you make is signed with 'Penny', and even after someone else made an incorrect assumption, exactly like I did, you chose not reveal that you were in fact a man. How was I to know? You're concentrating on all of the wrong subject matter of my posts.

Assumption - A statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn
Opinion - A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof

See there, the difference between my assumption - a statement I made about your gender and believed to be true from which a conclusion could've been drawn (though I didn't), and your opinion - a conclusion about the Nihilum members, held with confidence but not substantiated with any proof?

The miniscule difference between my assumption and your opinion is that I never drew any conclusions beyond my assumption that you were most likely a female. Your assumption that they spend too much time in-game led you to hold the opinion that the rest of their life was out of balance and unhealthy.

Akk...I apologize to all who are still reading, and so:

what do you guys think of this

I think I'd never be able to keep up with their schedule. I have a job that I work at for 50-60 hours a week, and a family that relies on me being at work that many hours a week.

[PTiger]

Interesting...You start out with 'typical', then narrow it to EVERY....

If a person does EVERY 24 hour period with JUST what you say, day in, day out...I'll bite...Its unhealthy...

On the other hand, I know several prof. Athletes, and they have some days that focus on game prep, and many that do not...they have social lives, etc....

Their days are rarely ALL of one thing or another.

They also have off-seasons...Quite different than what you seem to suggest.

Are you seriously interested? Or are you baiting Penny?

:grin:

Yes I'm seriously interested to see what Penny thinks about my statment. And the examples I gave bepicted a theoretical day in the life of a pro athlete. They're lives change a lot, they don't do the same things every day...but I can assure you that the vast majority of their time is spent in some way or another related to their jobs. Even when they're relaxing at home or on vacation, many athletes still watch their diet and continue to work out. It's a 365 day a year commitment, and much of their days are spent focused on being an athlete. They spend much more time on being an athlete than that Nihilum application asks...so I'm just wondering what Penny thinks about that.

[Ryste]

And Ryste? Put Michael Jordan in $10 shoes and some cheap gym clothes and he'd be as good as he is in his chosen attire. Put Nihilum in greens and they'd not be able to achieve the same accomplishments they do today - the difference ... the ONLY difference ... would be directly attributed to time and nothing else. The time to farm to get the purples or whatever.

I've played games too long to have any other opinion - you play the level until you figure out how to beat it then you go on to the next. In WoW, it's all about gear, level, talent points and time...lots of time, time for trial and error to lead to success.

Keep telling yourself that in Arena games. Time doesn't equal success in arena, gear doesnt' equal success in arena. Actually in WoW in general.

Two equally equiped group of people, each spent 100 hours on the gruul encounter, their progress will not be the same. It not just time and equipment.

[Penny]

Yes I'm seriously interested to see what Penny thinks about my statment. And the examples I gave bepicted a theoretical day in the life of a pro athlete. They're lives change a lot, they don't do the same things every day...but I can assure you that the vast majority of their time is spent in some way or another related to their jobs. Even when they're relaxing at home or on vacation, many athletes still watch their diet and continue to work out. It's a 365 day a year commitment, and much of their days are spent focused on being an athlete. They spend much more time on being an athlete than that Nihilum application asks...so I'm just wondering what Penny thinks about that.First, your assertion on the schedule of pro athletes isn't substantiated, the schedule of Nihilum was.

Second, the definition of 'health' is substantiated by the World health Organization. I'm not making something up, I'm recognizing the foremost world authority on the matter. It's their standard, not mine. I just use it for reference, since.. well, you should use the worlds experts opinions for such things rather than your own. Of course you can use your own definitions for things, but that's a bit ... less than accurate, wouldn't you say?

NOW, you post the schedule of a pro athlete for a 12 month period or so, I'll analyze it based on the WHO definition and THEN we'll talk about it and I'll offer my opinion. If it's not balanced as the WHO suggests, then I'll be of the opinion that it's not healthy. However, since teams value the health of their players, I'm fairly sure that the schedule of a pro athlete will have a balance MUCH better than that described by the guild application in the first post of this thread.

[PTiger]

First, your assertion on the schedule of pro athletes isn't substantiated, the schedule of Nihilum was.

Second, the definition of 'health' is substantiated by the World health Organization. I'm not making something up, I'm recognizing the foremost world authority on the matter. It's their standard, not mine. I just use it for reference, since.. well, you should use the worlds experts opinions for such things rather than your own. Of course you can use your own definitions for things, but that's a bit ... less than accurate, wouldn't you say?

NOW, you post the schedule of a pro athlete for a 12 month period or so, I'll analyze it based on the WHO definition and THEN we'll talk about it and I'll offer my opinion. If it's not balanced as the WHO suggests, then I'll be of the opinion that it's not healthy. However, since teams value the health of their players, I'm fairly sure that the schedule of a pro athlete will have a balance MUCH better than that described by the guild application in the first post of this thread.

I'm going to post the actual schedule of a pro athlete for 12 months. The following is every single thing he does for every minute, for every hour, for every day for every month for the next year. Here it is:


So now that we've decided that what you've asked for is an impossibility, I'm going to ask my question again. And this time you're going to have to use your imagination to fill in the blanks of a theoretical question. The quote I used in my post three posts back was the one in which I'm asking you about Penny, the one in which you claimed that anyone who does anything singular is unhealthy. Not your definition from the WHO. Basically I'm saying that a professional athlete's job is to be healthy, and then to concentrate on this one thing for far more than 8 hours a day (more than Nihilum requires) and you're saying that this is unhealthy.

If your job is to be healthy, and you do it all the time and nothing else, does that make you unhealthy?

[gmedina]

I'm going to post the actual schedule of a pro athlete for 12 months. The following is every single thing he does for every minute, for every hour, for every day for every month for the next year. Here it is:


So now that we've decided that what you've asked for is an impossibility, I'm going to ask my question again. And this time you're going to have to use your imagination to fill in the blanks of a theoretical question. The quote I used in my post three posts back was the one in which I'm asking you about Penny, the one in which you claimed that anyone who does anything singular is unhealthy. Not your definition from the WHO. Basically I'm saying that a professional athlete's job is to be healthy, and then to concentrate on this one thing for far more than 8 hours a day (more than Nihilum requires) and you're saying that this is unhealthy.

If your job is to be healthy, and you do it all the time and nothing else, does that make you unhealthy?

LOL. While were at it can you tell me what happens when an unstopable force meets an unmovable object? Or if a liar says he is a lier is he still a lier?:grin: :grin: :grin:

[Foonyak]

LOL. While were at it can you tell me what happens when an unstopable force meets an unmovable object? Or if a liar says he is a lier is he still a lier?:grin: :grin: :grin:

When an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, certain doom is imminent.

A liar who tells the truth occasionally is still a liar. That particular fact s/he told you about her/his life is irrelevant.

[mesonm]

If your job is to be healthy, and you do it all the time and nothing else, does that make you unhealthy?

Are you and Penny using the definition of healthy? If so, there is no such thing as an "act" called healthy that you can 'do'.

Not sure why you keep pushing...

2+2 really does equal 4.

:grin:

[Penny]

It's a matter of comparison. Compare what the WHO says 'healthy' is and whatever lifestyle you want. How close it comes is ... how close it comes. It's not an emotional issue no matter how attached someone is to a particular perspective.

I do find it interesting that some would have no problem depreciating the accomplishment of having a healthy lifestyle and argue vehemently against any effort to depreciate the accomplishments of some folk playing a video game....

Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity

Why don't we lower the bar so EVERYone gets to claim a 'healthy' lifestyle? It's so much easier and much more fun playing a video game than it is exercising, let's call playing video games, food from McD's., drugs, alcohol, etc GOOD for you!

Yeah, then you could claim people that sit behind computers up to 12 hrs a day, 7 days a week healthy and none would be able to argue 'cause that there is the definition of healthy, by golly!

[Xmcdaniel]

Listening and actually executing instructions ARE valuable skills, and are likely exhibited by the "shut up and do what we say" types of guilds...

Umm...not trying to be a jerk here but is the WoW player base in general so pathetic and worthless that the ability to listen and execute instructions is a rare and prized attribute?

[shifttusk]

Umm...not trying to be a jerk here but is the WoW player base in general so pathetic and worthless that the ability to listen and execute instructions is a rare and prized attribute?

You're obviously not in the working world. Theres tons of people who couldnt follow a list of instructions unless you held their hand.

[Xmcdaniel]

So the big question...Do you find all professional athletes to be unhealthy?

A typical pro-athlete will practice, play a game, work out, eat well, do a photo shoot, go to bed early, pretty much use his entire 24 hour day in preparation of his profession. Is every single professional athlete unhealthy?

Actually they go on vacation and take a break during the off-season. It's kind of like the accountants that work 100 hours a week during the tax season and then work 15-20 hours a week during the summer time.

They also get paid handsomely for their efforts...

[Xmcdaniel]

You're obviously not in the working world. Theres tons of people who couldnt follow a list of instructions unless you held their hand.

Not in the business I'm in. Do you work at a day care or something?

[Foonyak]

You're obviously not in the working world. Theres tons of people who couldnt follow a list of instructions unless you held their hand.

Quoted for truth.

Not in the business I'm in. Do you work at a day care or something?

I can't speak for Shifttusk, but I work at Texas Instruments (sole producer of Sun Microsystem's CPUs amongst other things), and as Shift has stated, there are some people here that just don't get it, whatever it may be. Can't follow directions, and won't use common sense. No matter what job you have, from fetchin' shrimp at a tackle shop to working for one of the leading microprocessor producers in the world, idiocy abounds.

[mesonm]

Umm...not trying to be a jerk here but is the WoW player base in general so pathetic and worthless that the ability to listen and execute instructions is a rare and prized attribute?

Rare and prized FOR WOW, no.

Rare and prized for LIFE. Yes.

Regardless of where you learn it, it is valuable.

[Mysticfire]

Nihilum who? I thought Death & Taxes were WoW's number one guild? i'm wondering why they did not mandate a psychological sanity test, the ability to run a full marathon while looking at a computer screen, and a compulsory screening of your chromosomes to verfiy if you have super multitasking neuro reflexes.

[Altaris]

Thread res ftl. This one should stay dead.