Why do you face discrimination?

[PTiger]

(I originally posted this in response to the Nihilum thread, but seeing as its more off topic than that thread, and because I want to know what people think, I made it it's own topic. What happened in that thread is that many people decided to belittle the top guild in the world, judging them because of the time spent dedicated to this game.)

Why, as a video game player, do you face discrimination? Why is your "hobby" any less worthy of being a hobby than many others?
Personally, I find it a bit disheartening. I feel as if I've been fighting "video game" discrimination my whole life. When I was a child I became obsessed with the original 8-bit Nintendo. It's bright shiny colors, the games complexities, story lines, challenges, it was all too much for a boy of 8. I was hooked. However, when my mother found out when my new passion was, I was immediately met with condemnation. It was fine for me to go outside and play basketball, ride my bike, watch movies at an overnight sleep over...but if I was playing video games all afternoon, well that was just a giant waste of my time, as far as my mother was concerned.

Growing up, not much changed, except the Nintendo turned into a 16 then 32 then 64 bit machine. By the time I graduated from high school and moved off to college, the N64 and more importantly James Bond Goldeneye was the epicenter of my gaming universe. Me and my roommates would play til 3am for a week straight, trying to best the game and best each other. But now instead of my mother looking down on my playing, it became my female classmates.

College is the greatest time of your life, and half the reason for that is you have hundreds of young people who are trying to figure themselves out in a variety of ways, not the least of which is who they are romantically. Upon meeting a new female friend and the inevitable question of "what do you like to do?" comes up, for some reason I never mentioned that I like to spend hours upon hours trying to shoot Oddjobs overpowered shortness. For some reason, "I'm an avid reader" always seemed to be the more appropriate answer especially, "when I'm not donating my time to charity".

Towards the end of college and into the start of my professional life I settled down with one girl. Definitely not ready to get married, I moved in with her to see if maybe one day we would end up that way. Immediately enemy No. 1 became the World of Warcraft. She's never hated anything so much in her whole life as the game we all talk about on a daily basis. Over the course of a few months we worked toward some type of compromise, keeping her level of anger slightly below boiling. In the end my relationship didn't work out, but not due to WoW, but because we turned out not to be right for each other.

Today, as WoW becomes the first truly mainstream video game ever, we as players still struggle with stereotypes, judgements, and yes, condemnation. Not only does this sentiment come from people who don't play "video games", but judging by the thread about Nihilums application, it comes from ourselves. We judge ourselves as unworthy to those who choose to spend their time doing "better" things. We've been told for so long that our hobby is so horrible, that we've come to believe it. There are many people who play WoW, and feel guilty for the amount of time spent playing it.

I hope everyone can realize what's going on here. Our world is changing, but until we decide to change with it, change will be slow. Until we stop supporting untrue stereotypes from within, we'll be working against ourselves. I hope that one day playing "video games" will be seen along the same footing as building model cars, flying a kite, collecting memorabilia, playing soccer, playing the violin, or any of a number of hobbies in which human beings use to pass the time.

[poopsmcgee]

well man i know where ur coming from, but it seems your looking for some perfect world that has never and will never exist. sure u can say that it is attitudes like mine that make that statement true, but it is true none the less. but i'm not going to lie and say i try to not use stereotypes and such against people, but i don't really see where stereotypes apply to that guild. i feel like they play video games too much and i don't care/need or want anyone to change my mind. hell man those other examples u gave, i make fun of people who play soccer and play the violin also lol. its my right as an american and a human being to have my own feelings and state them as i wish. its freedom man and it is a good thing. i couldn't care less if someone came along and told me that i play too much. i'd just call em a noob and move on lol.

[mesonm]

Not sure what your point is, and whether you have a question related to WOW somewhere in there...

As to change, it is inevitable, but is not always good.

[xDarkDrifterx]

I here ya' - but playing a video game should never be compared to sports IMO.

I would however compare it to "building model cars, flying a kite, collecting memorabilia, playing the violin, or any of a number of hobbies in which human beings use to pass the time"

Just not sports.

Playing sports (equates to exercise, increased circulation, heart rate, etc) in your spare time your whole life will generally increase your life expectancy versus sitting on your butt your whole life which takes from it.

The reason's why I think games get a bad rap:

1) you're inside the whole time
2) eating habits can change
3) sleeping habits can change
4) absolutely 0% exercise
5) decreased circulation due to sitting for extended periods
5) staring at a computer screen for extended periods is horrible for your eyes
6) mild radiation from the monitor
7) people think it's anti-social (which we all know it's not - we're just ignoring non-in-game people lol)


FYI - 31 yrs old, married, been gaming since The Commador 64

[mesonm]

I here ya' - but playing a video game should never be compared to sports IMO.

I would however compare it to "building model cars, flying a kite, collecting memorabilia, playing the violin, or any of a number of hobbies in which human beings use to pass the time"

Just not sports.

Playing sports (equates to exercise, increased circulation, heart rate, etc) in your spare time your whole life will generally increase your life expectancy versus sitting on your butt your whole life which takes from it.

The reason's why I think games get a bad rap:

1) you're inside the whole time
2) eating habits can change
3) sleeping habits can change
4) absolutely 0% exercise
5) decreased circulation due to sitting for extended periods
5) staring at a computer screen for extended periods is horrible for your
eyes
6) mild radiation from the monitor
7) people think it's anti-social (which we all know it's not - we're just
ignoring non-in-game people lol)


FYI - 31 yrs old, married, been gaming since The Commador 64

Commodore 64...

You can guess why I know that...

[xDarkDrifterx]

Commodore 64...

You can guess why I know that...

:grin:

Man i haven't seen or spelled that system in ages

lol ty my spell checker and fellow old folgie lol

:wave:

edit: btw - I would consider Kite flying in the league of sports and would not compare it to gaming - that whole running to get the kite up thing would be (considering the distance you gotta run) exercise. lol

[Ottorfnam]

(I originally posted this in response to the Nihilum thread, but seeing as its more off topic than that thread, and because I want to know what people think, I made it it's own topic. What happened in that thread is that many people decided to belittle the top guild in the world, judging them because of the time spent dedicated to this game.)

Why, as a video game player, do you face discrimination? Why is your "hobby" any less worthy of being a hobby than many others?
Personally, I find it a bit disheartening. I feel as if I've been fighting "video game" discrimination my whole life. When I was a child I became obsessed with the original 8-bit Nintendo. It's bright shiny colors, the games complexities, story lines, challenges, it was all too much for a boy of 8. I was hooked. However, when my mother found out when my new passion was, I was immediately met with condemnation. It was fine for me to go outside and play basketball, ride my bike, watch movies at an overnight sleep over...but if I was playing video games all afternoon, well that was just a giant waste of my time, as far as my mother was concerned.

Growing up, not much changed, except the Nintendo turned into a 16 then 32 then 64 bit machine. By the time I graduated from high school and moved off to college, the N64 and more importantly James Bond Goldeneye was the epicenter of my gaming universe. Me and my roommates would play til 3am for a week straight, trying to best the game and best each other. But now instead of my mother looking down on my playing, it became my female classmates.

College is the greatest time of your life, and half the reason for that is you have hundreds of young people who are trying to figure themselves out in a variety of ways, not the least of which is who they are romantically. Upon meeting a new female friend and the inevitable question of "what do you like to do?" comes up, for some reason I never mentioned that I like to spend hours upon hours trying to shoot Oddjobs overpowered shortness. For some reason, "I'm an avid reader" always seemed to be the more appropriate answer especially, "when I'm not donating my time to charity".

Towards the end of college and into the start of my professional life I settled down with one girl. Definitely not ready to get married, I moved in with her to see if maybe one day we would end up that way. Immediately enemy No. 1 became the World of Warcraft. She's never hated anything so much in her whole life as the game we all talk about on a daily basis. Over the course of a few months we worked toward some type of compromise, keeping her level of anger slightly below boiling. In the end my relationship didn't work out, but not due to WoW, but because we turned out not to be right for each other.

Today, as WoW becomes the first truly mainstream video game ever, we as players still struggle with stereotypes, judgements, and yes, condemnation. Not only does this sentiment come from people who don't play "video games", but judging by the thread about Nihilums application, it comes from ourselves. We judge ourselves as unworthy to those who choose to spend their time doing "better" things. We've been told for so long that our hobby is so horrible, that we've come to believe it. There are many people who play WoW, and feel guilty for the amount of time spent playing it.

I hope everyone can realize what's going on here. Our world is changing, but until we decide to change with it, change will be slow. Until we stop supporting untrue stereotypes from within, we'll be working against ourselves. I hope that one day playing "video games" will be seen along the same footing as building model cars, flying a kite, collecting memorabilia, playing soccer, playing the violin, or any of a number of hobbies in which human beings use to pass the time.

8 years old and enjoying the original Nintendo? We must be nearly the same age. I'm 27... how old are you? Those were some great times, weren't they? I actually don't have my original Nintendo system anymore but a couple years ago I did purchase a Super Nintendo on eBay along with a TON of games for it. Boy, that took me waaaaay back... I even got the original Mario Brothers from the first Nintendo that plays on the Super Nintendo!! Talk about nostalgia... :D

[poopsmcgee]

just fyi, i'm married for 11yrs, 35yrs old with 2 boys 5 and 7. i have gone thru the problems with the wife and gaming and basically our deal is that i game late at night. if i can be spending time with my wife and kids i do so. there is the occasion that i need time for something like a cal css match, but i schedule that with the fam lol. sad isn't it. i just wanted to point out that i also have been here since the beginning. my first game was a solid state pong i got in '77. but it all came to a head when i was working on my jedi in swg and it got ugly. all is good now and as crazy as it may sound, wow has never been a problem.

[xDarkDrifterx]

Paddle controls FTW! lol

[poopsmcgee]

lol i was the kaboom master. and with goldeneye i was one of the few i knew who mastered the "honey" control scheme. that was where u used two controllers and the analog sticks on both. yah thats right, i was a big console noob for far too long. well at least that how i look at people how play consoles now LOL.

[LunarSolaris]

Just turned 37 here... married - wife has grown kids and they are out of the house.

Gaming gets a bad rap for many of the reasons darkdrifter lists. Most notably, many consider gaming an "obsessive/compulsive" and "addictive" behavior... additionally, video game persona hasn't evolved past the "it's for teenagers and kids" gig. People have a hard time comprehending that people like myself (who grew up in the first evolution of video games... pong, commodore, etc.) still play in their adult years. I just don't think society has caught up with us "first generation" gamers (those in their 30's to mid 40's).

I imagine in time, persona will change. One thing is for certain though... video games are a DOMINANT force on the market, and millions upon millions of people play them. That is not likely to change soon.

[rgirty]

I here ya' - but playing a video game should never be compared to sports IMO.

I would however compare it to "building model cars, flying a kite, collecting memorabilia, playing the violin, or any of a number of hobbies in which human beings use to pass the time"

Just not sports.

Playing sports (equates to exercise, increased circulation, heart rate, etc) in your spare time your whole life will generally increase your life expectancy versus sitting on your butt your whole life which takes from it.

The reason's why I think games get a bad rap:

1) you're inside the whole time
2) eating habits can change
3) sleeping habits can change
4) absolutely 0% exercise
5) decreased circulation due to sitting for extended periods
5) staring at a computer screen for extended periods is horrible for your eyes
6) mild radiation from the monitor
7) people think it's anti-social (which we all know it's not - we're just ignoring non-in-game people lol)


FYI - 31 yrs old, married, been gaming since The Commador 64

Ok bud, I like you but I gotta call you out here. It isn't the comparison of PLAYING sports its the comparison of spending hours and hours on your fantasy team as well as hours spent drinking beer and chomping down hot dogs all day long.

My "friends" used to call me nerd etc etc for being in front of the computer, when they would promptly plop down in their living room for 12 hours of football/beer drinking and hot dog eating.

If you want to get into some health discussion look at the giant abdomen and man bewbs on most hardcore football fans.

I went out and got this little snippet for you, in case you think fantasy sports aren't as time consuming as wow, just have a look at the following.

10. As draft day closes in, you kick your kids off the computer during their homework time, so you can do your Fantasy homework.


Many people like you and me have admitted this terrible act on more then one occasion. With the sweet smell of the pigskin in the air, and kids going back to school, there is no telling how many more of these shameless acts will be committed.

9. You’re late to your date with the girl next door, because you’re waiting to see if you picked up that special player off the waiver wire.

Fantasy Sports waits for no one, right players? That cutie will be there later, yes, but the player you’ve waited for during the 48-hour waiver wire period might not, and you have to do what ever it takes to make sure you get them.

8. You take that $100 you were going to spend on your Anniversary Gift, and use it as your entry fee.

If this happens to you, and you have to explain to your significant other why all they got was a card you created with a crayon on your 10th Anniversary, you look them right in the eye and tell them that, that card was made from the heart, and no gift could replace the time and effort you endured while producing that masterpiece. It also helps if you put a band aid on your index finger, and tell your special someone, that you lost a lot of blood creating that card.

7. You cancel your family trip to Disney Land, because that is the week of your Fantasy Draft.

When you have to explain to your kids why they can’t see Mickey this year, jut tell'em that poor Mickey was involved in a hit and run, and is in the hospital for a few weeks. The poor mouse really isn't going to miss your kids any way, he see thousands a year. What’s one or two more?

6. If you e-mail trade offers to other Fantasy Owners more then you talk to your significant other.

If you’re going to be successful in life, they just have to understand that they’re going to have to take a back seat during the season. You know you have to make that deal, if that deal doesn’t get down right that very instant, who knows what tomorrow will bring.

5. When you’re at work, you talk more about how hot your players are right now then you do about your own family.

If your boss doesn’t understand how important it is that you have the hottest player in the league on your team right now and that you have to tell everyone at work, well then you give him that delivery pizza back and tell him, “Sir, I’m moving up in life, I’m heading to Papa Johns.” Don’t let the man hold you down, you tell the world what you have to say, and you say it loud and proud.

4. If you have to call in sick or skip work because it interferes with your draft time.

Nothing comes between you and your draft, not even work. When you have to be somewhere on time, everyone counts on you, and you can’t leave those 11 other Fantasy Owners hanging. You’re a man of your word, and they know you’ll come through.

3. When you fake a pee break at your kid’s recital to check on your player’s stats on your cell.

We all know that those recitals should be over after 10 minutes, and heck, that’s why you brought the video camera. I mean come on, should your boy be in that recital anyways. When it comes down to crunch time, you need to know, and a pee break is necessary to catch up on how well your players are doing.

2. If you ever told your wife that now wasn’t a good time to go to the hospital to deliver your child, because it meant you’d have to miss the game.

Just because her water broke, doesn’t really mean you have to leave right that instance. Just make sure you have a ruler in your back pocket, and if she gets to 5 cm, then maybe you should head to hospital. That is unless your doctor, if that’s’ the case, sweet.

1. If you ever skipped “Happy Time” with your significant other, because you were a few points down and your player was either in the Red Zone, up to bat, or at the free throw line and you HAD to see what was going to happen.

It’s like “Happy Time” during a Football, Baseball, or Basketball commercial break. It can wait.

[Ashenshugra]

^^

Just shows that is how society is. Some will discriminate against gamers, while others will discrimintate against fantasy sports players. Its how society is. No sense worrying about it. If it bothers you, maybe you feel you actually do have more of an addiction? When it becomes an addiction .....well then there is cause for concern. Its pepole with a gaming addiction that give a bad rap to casual - avid gamers.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Man i haven't seen or spelled that system in ages

I have one of those, and an Atari 800XL mounted on the wall in my apartment. My original computer experiences -- where it all started for me. Unfortunately, my decrepit Atari 2600 didn't survive a move a few years back, or else that too would be on the wall with the others. I also have an 8" floppy disk along side them, and one stick of RAM that is all that is left from my computer I built that did not survive a lightning strike. Sort of a miniature "museum" of my computer experiences...

[poopsmcgee]

man i think pretty much anyone who isn't into fantasy sports would make fun of those who are. i am one who is not into it lol. i think they would have it worse than gamers.

[rgirty]

I'm not making fun of them, i simply think the pot shouldn't point at the kettle.

[bonra]

LOL some funny stuff here. BTW I'm 41 and you could say I'm addicted to WoW. My 12yo son wanted it for Christmas and got me hooked about a month later. We don't let my husband play the game because that would cut into our time. Now if Blizzard would let you add a 2nd account at a reduced rate we would prolly be all over that. Oh ya I also like fantasy football and have all the nintendo consoles cept for the latest one.

[poopsmcgee]

have all the nintendo consoles cept for the latest one.
drop everything you are doing right now and go buy one. it really is a revolution in gaming. my family has had so much fun playing that thing. heck my wife even got me playing some mama's cooking game last night and it was pretty fun lol.

[bonra]

OH heck NO! IMO WoW is better than any nintendo any day. Or maybe thats just my addiction talking. lol Besides I heard about peeps throwing the remote through the TV so no ty. ;)

On 2nd thought....after I get to 70 the price may be less and I will. :)

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

drop everything you are doing right now and go buy one. it really is a revolution in gaming. my family has had so much fun playing that thing. heck my wife even got me playing some mama's cooking game last night and it was pretty fun lol.

Step 1: Find a Wii.

I still have failed to accomplish Step 1 since November. Cannot move to Step 2: Buy that Wii, until I have accomplished Step 1. The Wii is heavily overcamped and has a horrible respawn time.

[rgirty]

OH heck NO! IMO WoW is better than any nintendo any day. Or maybe thats just my addiction talking. lol Besides I heard about peeps throwing the remote through the TV so no ty. ;)

On 2nd thought....after I get to 70 the price may be less and I will. :)

I saw that a retirement home bought a ton of very easy to get out of chairs, as well as a huge projection screen with a projector. They then hooked a WII up to the projector and now have bowling tournaments several nights a week, bowling leagues for men and women due to no stress swinging of the controller versus a bowling ball.

Many of the people were avid bowlers and simply couldn't do it physically at an advanced age but have taken to the wii with abandon.

Personnel at the retirement home say morale and physical well being is at an all time high, people have something to look forward to and they enjoy it greatly.

I thought that it was pretty awesome, some of the interviews with the people really brought a smile to my face they were loving it.

[xDarkDrifterx]

If you want to get into some health discussion look at the giant abdomen and man bewbs on most hardcore football fans.

LOL :laugh: :grin:

Yeah I hear that - but one thing - I was talking about actually "playing" sports - like flying a kite, playing soccer, playing football . . .not watching it on tv or listening on the radio - and certainly not fantasy sports leagues etc.

I mean actually going outside - getting some friends together and playing a game of football or basketball. IMO watching them or doing fantasy stuff (which I know nothing about - and it actually didn't even cross my mind earlier) can be classed with wow if that's how you're looking at it. Those are entertainment type activities. The wife and I just sit down and watch Lost or Hereos before we'd ever watch a game.

Personal note: I rarely watch sports - I only play them (couldn't tell you the last SuperBowl I watched, etc.)

[Tegan]

I find the discrimination a bit disheartening as well. I'm 45 yrs old, female and an avid gamer. After a long,rough day at work, it is extremely gratifying to come home and game; beating the crap out of some helpless NPC/mob. Mom has complained for years how much of my spare time is spent gaming, she thinks I should get out more. I spend 10+hrs a day dealing with the public, so I really don't need to deal with them anymore today, thanks. I also remind her; I met my husband playing a MMORPG. My husband and I spend our free time together gaming with our friends. What the heck is wrong with that? Social activity that fits into our busy lives as it can be done at any time of the day. Its also a very cost effective entertainment, a mere $15/mo each for all the WOW we can eat. We'd spend more than that for one evening going to a club, or movie & dinner.
Likewise, I could never understand how folks could spend so much time watching sports. Never made sense to watch when participating is much more fun.
To each is own I guess. There will always be folks that don't agree.

[Cychwyn]

I choose not to listen to the opinion of uninformed people with no relevance to my life. I play games and the people that matter to me are either also gamers, or understand that that is one of the ways I spend my spare time. At least it is harmless games such as WoW, not emotional games with other people's feelings.

Hanging out in the pub has quite a few of the same disadvantages and dangers as gaming. It's more acceptable, yet carries a risk of drink-driving which tends to affect (i.e. maim/kill) innocent people who just happen to be in the wrong place. Not to mention drunk brawls and the general "hilarity" of thoroughly sozzled people. Up to recently you could also have the doubtful pleasure of hanging around in a dense cloud of cigarette-smoke.
I'll stick with my "unhealthy" gaming. It's better for me and all the people around me.

Grouchy... my brand new PC didn't arrive yesterday as it should have and now I'll have to wait another two weeks. Please excuse the pram and widely distributed toys. :-)

[PTiger]

well man i know where ur coming from, but it seems your looking for some perfect world that has never and will never exist. sure u can say that it is attitudes like mine that make that statement true, but it is true none the less. but i'm not going to lie and say i try to not use stereotypes and such against people, but i don't really see where stereotypes apply to that guild. i feel like they play video games too much and i don't care/need or want anyone to change my mind. hell man those other examples u gave, i make fun of people who play soccer and play the violin also lol. its my right as an american and a human being to have my own feelings and state them as i wish. its freedom man and it is a good thing. i couldn't care less if someone came along and told me that i play too much. i'd just call em a noob and move on lol.

First off, rule No. 1 when talking to other MMORPGers, Do not mention any type of old gaming system or it'll take over the conversation! Haha, good times. And yes to the person who asked how old I am, I'm exactly 27 years old also.

Poopsmcgee, (I can't believe I'm addressing someone who addresses himself as poop, but whatever) I don't think I'm looking for a perfect world. Have you ever heard the story about crabs in a bucket? They all want to get out of the bucket to get to freedom, but as soon as one of them gets near the top, the rest of the crabs can't take that one of them is getting out when the rest of them can't, so they grab him and pull him down back into the bucket.

It's kind of the same thing with WoW players. As soon as one of our group begins to demand respect (ie Nihilum being the best), there are many other WoW players that try to bring them down and demean them. I choose to not demean people who are trying to accomplish grand goals, even if I might find them silly. The guy who wants to eat 60 hot dogs in 12 minutes, while not something I want to try to do, I do appreciate that he wants to do what someone else hasn't ever done.

You also have the ability to laugh at, or not respect, anyone that you choose. However, in enlightened American society, we try not to judge and demean people. I've been brought up in a world in which I was taught to respect people who are different than I am. I was taught to embrace diversity and to celebrate both similarities and differences across groups of people. In college I was taught that stereotypes are what foster racism, and untrue perceptions of groups of people. Stereotypes are propogated by the uneducated and ignorant.

My post was an attempt to have people see that they're contributing to some ridiculous idea that playing WoW is a bad thing because it happens to be a game on a computer. Playing WoW is an acceptable way to pass the day, plain and simple. I'm not up here defending drug use or any other type of illegal activity. We shouldn't belittle those people who happen to play this game more often than we do, it's hypocritical. And when I see that, I call it out.

[maladroit2000]

I would much rather have spent the 1000 hours I have spent playing Wow improving my piano playing. That would be something I have for life.

And I doubt I'll be telling my grandchildren about my incredible fight against the mighty Gruul.

[Fenris Ulf]

Video game playing is addictive, pure and simple. MMORPGS can ruin a career as sure as porn addiction (seen both sadly), bad internet, bad...what are you gonna do?

"In a study conducted at the Cyclotron Unit of
Hammersmith Hospital in London, Dr. Paul Grasby and his fellow researchers
determined that playing video games triggers the release of dopamine in the
brain."

Duh.

If you're sitting at work typing in a forum instead of doing your journal research in your down time...then you better watch out, you may soon have a career change.:wink: But that's your choice then isn't it?

I like a reward system, as I know the behavior is addictive. I run for 30 minutes, I get to play (really run, not just stand on the apartments treadmill so you can watch cable tv. these people suck. I digress). I'm currently trying to break this wow crutch, praying the high school hockey season ends quickly so us older guys can get some icetime.

[xDarkDrifterx]

And I doubt I'll be telling my grandchildren about my incredible fight against the mighty Gruul.

Did I tell you kids about how we used to have to walk to school in 3 feet of snow in -10 degree weather? Oh I did . . . well how about the time me and my guildies wtfpwned Gruul and got ubber lootz?"

Well settle down by the fire and listen to pappy . . . lol

:wink:

edit: Actually I bet they would make great kids stories if told in the right fantastical way . . . kind of a mini - Tolkien story. :grin:

[Xmcdaniel]

Is this the official "I just realized I fit the profile of a Nihilum guild recruit and I can't come to grips with the fact that people are of the opinion that it is an unhealthy lifestyle" thread?

[Fursphere]

Step 1: Find a Wii.

I still have failed to accomplish Step 1 since November. Cannot move to Step 2: Buy that Wii, until I have accomplished Step 1. The Wii is heavily overcamped and has a horrible respawn time.

Oddly enough, on a whim one night I walked into the local best buy, and asked to buy a Wii (KNOWING they wouldn't have one in stock).

The sales guy went in the back, then came back and handed me a Wii, saying "last one - you got lucky".

Ever since then its been virtual console heaven. :heart:

[Hoonah]

Did I tell you kids about how we used to have to walk to school in 3 feet of snow in -10 degree weather? Oh I did . . . well how about the time me and my guildies wtfpwned Gruul and got ubber lootz?"

Well settle down by the fire and listen to pappy . . . lol

:wink:

edit: Actually I bet they would make great kids stories if told in the right fantastical way . . . kind of a mini - Tolkien story. :grin:

Or how when we were young our parents made us get part time or full time summer jobs to pay for things like video games / computer stuff. :tongue:

[Tanitha]

And I doubt I'll be telling my grandchildren about my incredible fight against the mighty Gruul.

Ah, but wouldn't it be wonderful if you could be running them through the instance for old time's sake?

In a very real way those of us in our late twenties and older are the "pioneers" of this genre. Am I going to stop gaming because I'm getting older? No way, it is my hobby just like some people collect stamps, go surfing or whatever tickles their fancy. And I'll share that hobby with my children, grand-children and whomever happens to be interested in it.

And the younger generations are growing up in a world where video games are as natural and accessible as Matchbox cars and Barbie dolls. They'll be joining our generation soon enough and wtfpwning the lot of us old fogeys :grin:

[Hoonah]

They'll be joining our generation soon enough and wtfpwning the lot of us old fogeys :grin:

In the US we prefer Old Farts. :wink:

[Proverbs]

Most people don't have hobbies that's why. Most people have addictions.

[Tanitha]

:grin: Define hobby then?

[Hoonah]

It's all subjective. The fact that some here in this thread don't work and have their needs taken care of by others and the rest of us do work and pay our way in life additionally makes it difficult to define these issues (if you are in school my statement is not to imply you might not work as well or not working is bad - it isn't).

I have to work. I work 50 to 60 hours a week. I cannot put in a lot of hours on WoW without it interfering at some point with work (and maintaining a household). If I was to suddenly inherit $1M US dollars I would be able to retire and have more time to spend on WoW without a negative impact on work.

It is subjective based on your view point based on your situation.

The only thing I will say is that without a doubt the rise in childhood obesity is directly related to the amount of time they spend in front of the TV or computer vs. being involved in activities that involve physical exercise. I have been in health care for almost 14 years. My company actually has grants to do studies such as this.

[Tanitha]

Well, a rough dictionary definition of hobby says it is a leisure activity pursued outside of work. It doesn't seem like a very subjective thing to attempt to define - in fact it seems fairly clear cut.

I'd agree though, where people fall on the scale of entertainment gaming to compulsive gaming and how that relates to their personal life choices are fairly subjective.

A 50 to 60 hour work week, raising a daughter and maintaining a household are all parts of my equation. But somewhere in there the time exists to spend a few hours a week on a few of my different hobbies. The main thing for me is I do not expect people to denigrate / look down on me for having this as a hobby, versus for example playing darts or lawn bowls or burning to a crisp in the sun.

Unfortunately, like you indicated Hoonah, too few people know the meaning of balance in their lives and will follow only one path.

[kcma]

tanitha... i see wow... hubby... and elysia... but... where was i?? :(

[Tanitha]

tanitha... i see wow... hubby... and elysia... but... where was i?? :(

Off playing on Zul'jin and trying to steal rotten's girlfriend? :wink:

[kcma]

zomg!11!!!!1! you are the one and only tanitha! wanna come to napa with me? :)

[LucidSpirit]

I here ya' - but playing a video game should never be compared to sports IMO.

I would however compare it to "building model cars, flying a kite, collecting memorabilia, playing the violin, or any of a number of hobbies in which human beings use to pass the time"

Just not sports.

Playing sports (equates to exercise, increased circulation, heart rate, etc) in your spare time your whole life will generally increase your life expectancy versus sitting on your butt your whole life which takes from it.

The reason's why I think games get a bad rap:

1) you're inside the whole time
2) eating habits can change
3) sleeping habits can change
4) absolutely 0% exercise
5) decreased circulation due to sitting for extended periods
5) staring at a computer screen for extended periods is horrible for your eyes
6) mild radiation from the monitor
7) people think it's anti-social (which we all know it's not - we're just ignoring non-in-game people lol)


FYI - 31 yrs old, married, been gaming since The Commador 64

Boring old darts doesn't have the same stigma.

And chess although not a sport as such certainly doesn't have the same stigma either.

[roaming eye]

'Gaming'

It still has a negative sound after all these years. Here on a forum for an online game you don't notice that as much, but when discussing hobbies with family / fellow workers and mentioning 'gaming' will get you 'the look'.
Other people can only associate '(video)gaming' with their 9 year old nephew / son banging on his nintendo and thus have a hard time grasping the fact you as an adult do 'somehting similar' with any enthousiasm for multiple hours a weeks as a hobby. Don't u get tired from sitting behind a PC all day at work anyhow?
When you top that with remarking you sometimes spend a whole night behind a PC playing a MMO ('playing with elves') they start feeling sorry for you and politely try to inform whether you are suffering from a depression or something.... They don't understand you would want to do something so 'silly', and when you ask about it and learn they sat behind the TV the whole of last night they still think you are sad and need help .....
This isn't only limited to MMO's of course.
For example, I used to play board wargames and when I told people I did that and what it entails (1-houre 'turns', tens or hunderds of markers), they were kind of impressed with the complexity of those games and seemed to except it as a 'nerdy but worthy hobby'. Now those boardgames are replaced with computer games via email/online play(thank god for that), they still have the same complexity, but when you tell people you play wargames online on a PC they have a mental image of their nephew/son banging his nintendo and seem to think you have a 'childish hobby'.
They simply are hampered with their (limited) view of 'computerized gaming'.

This illustrates that 'gaming' is not socially accepted as of yet and thus 'gamers' are mis-understood. Of course also the nature of media to emphasize on the extreme cases in relative new phenomena, like people who get easily addicted and endulge in excesive gaming, doesn't really help. That it is unhealthy to sit and watch TV days and nights on end and nothing else is no news anymore, if you are doing the same online gaming it is, since it is 'new'.
Let's make a news item about those online gaming freaks.
As a result that is what peolpe see/read about 'gaming' and thus 'gaming is bad'.

Let's not forget that most people haven't even heard of 'casual gaming' or 'hardcore gaming' or can even understand that for example you can build a new social netwerk with online gaming. The media don't tend to emphasis that, as it is not 'interesting' in the stories about 'de-railed teens' playing online games excessivly and their desperate parents. Sad cases indeed but excesses non the less.
Until 'gaming' is more socially excepted you will continue to meet this misunderstanding.

I have been playing games most of my live. From the standard Risk and Monopoly in my early teens through Pen and Paper AD&D, board wargames, tradeble cardgames and computergames. I see 'gaming' as an intelligent hobby which I hope to be able to do to my end of my day, it keeps those braincells upstairs slim and fit. I need to fill my leasure time with something that engages the brain and gaming is great tool for that.
That in this day and age online gaming is filling the most of my gaming time is a natural process, it is so much easier to have 'gaming on demand' then to have to wait to wednessday nights, drive an hour and play a game for a few hours and get back. The constant planning is a pain.
I only have one weekly gaming night left where I actually meet gamingfriends face to face to drink beer, chat and play tradeble card- and boardgames (in that order of priority :smiley: ), the rest of my gaming time has been replaced by computer gaming.
It is so much easier,you just fire up your PC at home see which gamingfriends are online and jump into a game on the spot. MMO's are even better. Ventrillo and teamspeak or ingame speechsupport still allow you to banter and chat along the way. And the great plus is a MMO game is always there for you to jump into whenever you a fancy some gametime.

What I do notice that this online age seems to make 'gaming' more mainstream. I keep meeting more and more people who play online, from poker to MMO's to football(soccer) management games. And it is great to talk with those people about how they came into online gaming and what makes them keep doing it. More often then not the readily access and the new social circle of online friends are being mentioned.
So slowly the social acceptance seems to grow for online gaming. So all in all I think you have to grind your teeth a bit against the 'video gaming discrimination' as you so elequently put it. The social acceptance for online gaming is slowly growing as a result of more people participating in it and thus the views will slowly divert from the common pre-conception that online gaming is only for spotty teens and is a one-way ticket to damnation and unhealthy obessive lifestyle worshipping the devil.
Dont' forget, that with the first generation of 'computer gamers' coming of an age where they have a family, job and normally a more important voice in society and thus in public opinion, social acceptance and thus understanding is bound to grow for this hobby.

With more understanding, people will learn that like all things in life, some people will take online gaming in the extreme. But that doesn't mean online gaming in itself is the work of satan but just another healthy hobby to enjoy.

[Qqwi]

(I originally posted this in response to the Nihilum thread, but seeing as its more off topic than that thread, and because I want to know what people think, I made it it's own topic. What happened in that thread is that many people decided to belittle the top guild in the world, judging them because of the time spent dedicated to this game.)

Why, as a video game player, do you face discrimination? Why is your "hobby" any less worthy of being a hobby than many others?
Personally, I find it a bit disheartening. I feel as if I've been fighting "video game" discrimination my whole life. When I was a child I became obsessed with the original 8-bit Nintendo. It's bright shiny colors, the games complexities, story lines, challenges, it was all too much for a boy of 8. I was hooked. However, when my mother found out when my new passion was, I was immediately met with condemnation. It was fine for me to go outside and play basketball, ride my bike, watch movies at an overnight sleep over...but if I was playing video games all afternoon, well that was just a giant waste of my time, as far as my mother was concerned.

Growing up, not much changed, except the Nintendo turned into a 16 then 32 then 64 bit machine. By the time I graduated from high school and moved off to college, the N64 and more importantly James Bond Goldeneye was the epicenter of my gaming universe. Me and my roommates would play til 3am for a week straight, trying to best the game and best each other. But now instead of my mother looking down on my playing, it became my female classmates.

College is the greatest time of your life, and half the reason for that is you have hundreds of young people who are trying to figure themselves out in a variety of ways, not the least of which is who they are romantically. Upon meeting a new female friend and the inevitable question of "what do you like to do?" comes up, for some reason I never mentioned that I like to spend hours upon hours trying to shoot Oddjobs overpowered shortness. For some reason, "I'm an avid reader" always seemed to be the more appropriate answer especially, "when I'm not donating my time to charity".

Towards the end of college and into the start of my professional life I settled down with one girl. Definitely not ready to get married, I moved in with her to see if maybe one day we would end up that way. Immediately enemy No. 1 became the World of Warcraft. She's never hated anything so much in her whole life as the game we all talk about on a daily basis. Over the course of a few months we worked toward some type of compromise, keeping her level of anger slightly below boiling. In the end my relationship didn't work out, but not due to WoW, but because we turned out not to be right for each other.

Today, as WoW becomes the first truly mainstream video game ever, we as players still struggle with stereotypes, judgements, and yes, condemnation. Not only does this sentiment come from people who don't play "video games", but judging by the thread about Nihilums application, it comes from ourselves. We judge ourselves as unworthy to those who choose to spend their time doing "better" things. We've been told for so long that our hobby is so horrible, that we've come to believe it. There are many people who play WoW, and feel guilty for the amount of time spent playing it.

I hope everyone can realize what's going on here. Our world is changing, but until we decide to change with it, change will be slow. Until we stop supporting untrue stereotypes from within, we'll be working against ourselves. I hope that one day playing "video games" will be seen along the same footing as building model cars, flying a kite, collecting memorabilia, playing soccer, playing the violin, or any of a number of hobbies in which human beings use to pass the time.

Thats one of the best written posts i've seen for ages.

[myusernameistaken]

I agree with the OP totally - what I find most amusing is that the people quickest to codemn are the people that will happily watch 5 hours of absolute brainless TV (Big Brother, X Factor etc etc) a night. However, if I get online and play with friends and chat over Teamspeak we're sad.

Actually I guess I don't get all that much derision but it's certainly easy to feel guilty about it.

[stimey]

I am not trying to flame here but I think this needs to be said, if the moderator disagrees, kick the reply, I'll be OK.

I don't get the purpose of this post except to get the "Tell me I'm okay and I'll tell you that you are okay".
This post is read by only those of us that play, right?
I like to play, you like to play.
Joe Shmoe on the corner doesn't, who cares?
Joe Shmoe said I waste my time, who cares?

Can someone explain to me the appeal of NASCAR, wait I don't care.
Can someone explain to me the appeal of quilting, wait I don't care.
Can someone expalin to me the appeal of XXXX, wait I don't care.

1. Live your life, not someone elses.
2. Live by your rules not others.
3. If it doesn't hurt others, do whatever makes YOU happy, happiness is was matters.
4. If you need ME to tell YOU that you are OK, then you have other issues.



PS. Man bewbs are called "moobs" :ponder:

[Penny]

4. If you need ME to tell YOU that you are OK, then you have other issues.QFT

In addition, if me telling you that I think you're NOT OK causes issues, there were issues there in the first place. A mature individual doesn't seek recognition from strangers nor do they let strangers affect their self image.

Take the "did I do the right thing" posts ... please.

[det]

I
The reason's why I think games get a bad rap:

1) you're inside the whole time
2) eating habits can change
3) sleeping habits can change
4) absolutely 0% exercise
5) decreased circulation due to sitting for extended periods
5) staring at a computer screen for extended periods is horrible for your eyes
6) mild radiation from the monitor
7) people think it's anti-social (which we all know it's not - we're just ignoring non-in-game people lol)


FYI - 31 yrs old, married, been gaming since The Commador 64

Which ofc sounds like watching TV...only watching TV is 100% passive. Still my wife watches it as much as I play ^^.

Started with a C64 as well..44 years and at some sort of peace about gaming with the wife. All my friends who play the game coincidentally have wifes with a pathological hatred for WoW too ^^.

What might the reasons be? Similar Scenari: When somebody runs amok with a weapon, politicians are happy to blame it on video games when they find out he played them. Nobody answers wtf a 17 year old got hold of a gun....or plans of banning them...

Maybe it is because computer games are still a relatively new hobby (20 odd years) ...

[roaming eye]

The 'purpose' of this post as I understood is that the OP wonders why computer gaming is looked negatively upon as a hobby.
Surprisingly so by computer gamers themselves as well.

Why, as a video game player, do you face discrimination? Why is your "hobby" any less worthy of being a hobby than many others?

Read the post http://forums.worldofwar.net/showthread.php?t=393949 to know what sparked this post.

I for one didn't sense any 'request for support' by the OP.

[PTiger]

The 'purpose' of this post as I understood is that the OP wonders why computer gaming is looked negatively upon as a hobby.
Surprisingly so by computer gamers themselves as well.



Read the post http://forums.worldofwar.net/showthread.php?t=393949 to know what sparked this post.

I for one didn't sense any 'request for support' by the OP.

This is exactly the purpose of my post. "Surprisingly so by computer gamers themselves". This is what I found to be so vexing. And to those a few posts back who agree with me and enjoy the style of my writing, thank you very much.

And you're right, I'm not looking for any support. I'm looking for people to take a look at themselves and ask why they are contributing to the negative stereotype associated with our hobby.

[Amurko]

I think if you game in moderation, others especially the opposite sex won't really care.. it's the people who spend a majority of their free time that give gamers a bad rep.

And playing a game, especially one like WoW, in moderation is much easier said than done.. takes a ton of discipline.

[myusernameistaken]

I think you're right PTiger. Even if we don't think we as an individual are geeky socially inept nerds we still are prone to assuming that most other gamers are.

2 examples:

I made the mistake of saying "my girlfriend is a teacher, so I've taken the Easter holidays off with her" in Barrens chat and got half a dozen replies from randoms saying "lol, you don't have a girlfriend, you're a geeky fat computer game player"... of course not written any where near as coherently.

Conversely in the dim and distant past I ran a Counter Strike clan and after loads of bickering very nearly went to "have a chat" with 2 guys I later found out were incredibly hard, massive and had done time for Grievous Bodily Harm before.

Probably best not make assumptions I guess is the point I am trying to make :azn:

[earindur]

Conversely in the dim and distant past I ran a Counter Strike clan and after loads of bickering very nearly went to "have a chat" with 2 guys I later found out were incredibly hard, massive and had done time for Grievous Bodily Harm before.

Probably best not make assumptions I guess is the point I am trying to make :azn:


Aaahhh, running a counter strike clan... that takes me back. more drama than a beaver stuck in a wood saw.

[Leviathonlx]

I think you're right PTiger. Even if we don't think we as an individual are geeky socially inept nerds we still are prone to assuming that most other gamers are.

2 examples:

I made the mistake of saying "my girlfriend is a teacher, so I've taken the Easter holidays off with her" in Barrens chat and got half a dozen replies from randoms saying "lol, you don't have a girlfriend, you're a geeky fat computer game player"... of course not written any where near as coherently.

Conversely in the dim and distant past I ran a Counter Strike clan and after loads of bickering very nearly went to "have a chat" with 2 guys I later found out were incredibly hard, massive and had done time for Grievous Bodily Harm before.

Probably best not make assumptions I guess is the point I am trying to make :azn:

Should of known better then to say anything in Barrens chat :p

[Penny]

I think if you game in moderation, others especially the opposite sex won't really care.. it's the people who spend a majority of their free time that give gamers a bad rep.

And playing a game, especially one like WoW, in moderation is much easier said than done.. takes a ton of discipline.In moderation it's a hobby, up to 12 hrs a day, 7 days a week is an obsession.

People that have obsessions for things cause issues for people that enjoy those things as hobbies. For example, it used to be called 'girl watching' and it was fairly innocent, now it's called 'stalking'...

[stimey]

The original thread that this OP took this excerpt from is in regards to Players that are on what most people would call the fringe of fanatacism. Requiring players play 30 hrs a week, is taking WoW to excess. It doesn't matter what the "hobby" is, spending 30 hrs a week 52 weeks a year is borderline crazy.

Here's some math:
Time sleeping each day (conservative estimate) 6 hrs
Time awake each day 18 hrs
Time playing WoW 5 hrs
18/5 = 36 % of your awake time

How is 1/3 of the time you are awake playing WoW not a little crazy.

Who should be saying this is excessive? Shouldn't those of us that take any kind of gaming as the fun leisure activity as it is be the first to call out our fellow gamers when it comes to that kind of stupidity?
Do we expect non gamers to be looking at these forums?

Yes, no one should judge another person simply because they enjoy something that is for the most part harmless.

Isn't it the nuts, the fanatics, the fringe element that gives most "groups" the bad image.

Let's call our fringe element what it is, ridiculous.
Let's let them know how we feel about this.

Maybe then someday gamers won't be viewed in a bad light.

Just an idea, but now as I take a step off my soapbox to look around I see we are afraid of hurting someone's feelings instead of doing the right thing.

[Penny]

My name is <insert name here>, and I'm a WoWaholic.

The first step is the hardest, the next 11 much easier.

[roaming eye]

Ok.....

Now that we have touched upon the excesses again let's get back to how people look upon their own hobby, computer gaming, and how they feel the people around them see it. Great hobby or not?

[Stigg]

If you play WoW for more than 4 hours a day, 7 days a week, you are a geek.

Which, imo, is not an insult. In fact, I find it as a compliment. I strongly suggest each and every one of us goes outside and plays some form of sport at least once a week, but that is a whole other story.

Computer gaming is so much more than gaming. Why? Because we are playing it on one of the most life-changing and world-changing objects ever. To succeed in most white collar jobs (and a lot of blue collar as well) people rely on computers a lot. While a simple knowledge of Microsoft Office will get you far, people that rely on knowing their computer inside out are the ones that will be able to accomplish tasks faster.

Think about it. If you weren't glued to your computer screen playing a game, what difference would it make to you to know all the key commands to minimize downtime out of game to pull up your various folders, interfaces, etc.? Cleaning computers of ad-ware, virus', etc. to speed up your fps is more than just something to speed up your fps. It is getting to know the computer and understand how it works.

Gaming has also led many of us to build our own computers, which requires an in-depth knowledge of hardware compatability. It has also led us to pick up other programs to create kick-butt avatars and signatures for all the forums we venture to to discuss said games. It has led us to understand networking for purposes of running servers (gaming or VOIP). We read countless pages of websites daily, increasing our vocabulary and improving our speaking skills. Computer games tend to be much more complex, stimulating our logic and abstract minds to work hard. I know it is negligible, but even simple adding, subtracting, multiplying, etc. is something all of us use ona daily basis. Hell, with WoW, we are even going into an economy class, working on the AH'es, buying low, selling high, price reductions, DE'ign, etc.

Computer gaming is a heck of a lot more than pressing a button. It helps us learn across a broad spectrum of events.


IMO the people that stare at a TV screen to see who is going to win the drinking contest on the new episode of Real World are the ones that should be concerned.

Alas, discrimination will set in. For you younger folks out there, enjoy what you do.

[poopsmcgee]

idunno man u make playing wow sound like an educational experience lol. idunno if the additions of words like hawt, lawl and stfu (yes i pronounce this) were actually improving my communication LOL. and on average i really don't think i would put much weight into how well communication is in general or /2 lol. man some of worse grammer and communication i have ever seen has been in wow. i'm not trying to say your post is not relevant, but i know for myself and my guild, which is quite large and populated with an older crowd, use wow as an outlet and just let ourselves go. i'd hardly say it improves anything other than our psyche LOL. we just have fun with it.

[Stigg]

idunno man u make playing wow sound like an educational experience lol. idunno if the additions of words like hawt, lawl and stfu (yes i pronounce this) were actually improving my communication LOL. and on average i really don't think i would put much weight into how well communication is in general or /2 lol. man some of worse grammer and communication i have ever seen has been in wow. i'm not trying to say your post is not relevant, but i know for myself and my guild, which is quite large and populated with an older crowd, use wow as an outlet and just let ourselves go. i'd hardly say it improves anything other than our psyche LOL. we just have fun with it.

For those of us that take time to actually type correctly, it has. Tag that along with the countless hundreds of computer software and hardware, WoW, and other articles I read each week, it has helped. I'm not just talking about in game, I am also refering to all the stuff we do out of game (yet still related to gaming).

[rgirty]

If you play WoW for more than 4 hours a day, 7 days a week, you are a geek.

Which, imo, is not an insult. In fact, I find it as a compliment. I strongly suggest each and every one of us goes outside and plays some form of sport at least once a week, but that is a whole other story.

Computer gaming is so much more than gaming. Why? Because we are playing it on one of the most life-changing and world-changing objects ever. To succeed in most white collar jobs (and a lot of blue collar as well) people rely on computers a lot. While a simple knowledge of Microsoft Office will get you far, people that rely on knowing their computer inside out are the ones that will be able to accomplish tasks faster.

Think about it. If you weren't glued to your computer screen playing a game, what difference would it make to you to know all the key commands to minimize downtime out of game to pull up your various folders, interfaces, etc.? Cleaning computers of ad-ware, virus', etc. to speed up your fps is more than just something to speed up your fps. It is getting to know the computer and understand how it works.

Gaming has also led many of us to build our own computers, which requires an in-depth knowledge of hardware compatability. It has also led us to pick up other programs to create kick-butt avatars and signatures for all the forums we venture to to discuss said games. It has led us to understand networking for purposes of running servers (gaming or VOIP). We read countless pages of websites daily, increasing our vocabulary and improving our speaking skills. Computer games tend to be much more complex, stimulating our logic and abstract minds to work hard. I know it is negligible, but even simple adding, subtracting, multiplying, etc. is something all of us use ona daily basis. Hell, with WoW, we are even going into an economy class, working on the AH'es, buying low, selling high, price reductions, DE'ign, etc.

Computer gaming is a heck of a lot more than pressing a button. It helps us learn across a broad spectrum of events.


IMO the people that stare at a TV screen to see who is going to win the drinking contest on the new episode of Real World are the ones that should be concerned.

Alas, discrimination will set in. For you younger folks out there, enjoy what you do.

Guess i'm not a geek then, i don't hit your time standard.

[DrOsmius]

The 'purpose' of this post as I understood is that the OP wonders why computer gaming is looked negatively upon as a hobby.
Surprisingly so by computer gamers themselves as well. .

I hazard that there are two reasons why.

1. Most perceive gaming as non-social, and therefore anti-social. Humans are a social animal; we rely on social relationships for our society to function. Things that are valued are often valued primarily for its social value: sports teams, charities, birthday parties. It is semi-built in us, this knowledge, that we require social connections to thrive and survive. So we come to value activities that are social, and also those activities that are related. For example, violin playing. It is accepted partly because there is the unspoken premise that the violin will be played for other people to hear. For example, the solitary writer...who will write things for other people to read. So as social activities are valued, as it is seen as contributing to the society around you, or developing the skills to do so. You are being a good citizen.

Non-social activities not only don't add value to others, but also become stigmatized as not merely non-social (like book reading), but as (again, unspokenly) anti-social. Yes, it is ignorance, for gaming can be very very social, as we here know...but many others don't know this. They see it as you fixated on your own personal obsession (and it must be obsession given the amounts of time) that benefits no one...not even yourself, as it forges no social ties and has no health benefits like taking a walk.

Well, at least that is the framework of part of the explanation.

2. Association with juvenility. Gaming is associated with children. And while everyone loves children being juvenile, NO ONE likes adults being juvenile. Hell, the word juvenile is almost always used as an insult. It is okay to be a kid when you are a kid, but doing so as an adult means you are not contributing to society (again, my thesis of the unspoken/unrealized attitudes). It is why we heap abuse on joblessness (living in ur mom's basement) and other related things.

Of course, they are wrong that adult gaming is juvenile, but it is at least their reason.

Anyhow..my one-and-one-half cents.

[Shellar]

Each person who devotes a significant amount of her or his time to gaming is another person who does not spend this time watching TV. If such people are numbered in tens of millions, this means that TV channels have lost a significant portion of their audience. Therefore, it is in the interests of conventional media to vilify gaming as much as possible.

[Tanitha]

The original thread that this OP took this excerpt from is in regards to Players that are on what most people would call the fringe of fanatacism. Requiring players play 30 hrs a week, is taking WoW to excess. It doesn't matter what the "hobby" is, spending 30 hrs a week 52 weeks a year is borderline crazy.

My question would be: "Why?"

When I go to work, I see people jogging. When I wander outside for lunch, I see people jogging. Sometimes, when I drive home, I see people jogging.

All these people are fitting in their jogging around work, family and other commitments OR they do not have any commitments and can be free to jog whenever they want to.

I see it the same with playing World of Warcraft, if anyone has the time or the inclination to do it, more power to them. They get to make their own choices and live with the consequences of those choices. But it's nigh on impossible to judge some random stranger on the internet and say: "Hey, you're unhealthy dude!" If it was a friend and you knew them and their lifestyle it is different, sure.

That might not fit my lifestyle though, I have too many other things to do too :grin:

And Stigg, I agree with your thoughts there. True geeks go much deeper than just the games. I've always thought that fantasy roleplaying was one example of how a simple, and often geeky hobby, has lead into so much research and reading that it's paid for it's entertainment value in knowledge many, many times over. From construction of castles, to historical weaponry and the Crusades to subtle political manipulation and sabre rattling by rival empires. All the flavours you use to construct a good campaign, learned from what has gone before.

Anyway, I ramble.

[Fantras]

Gaming does get a bad rap as a pointless waste of time and I am also loathe to discuss it freely most of the time. However, let's point out some GOOD things that can come from not only playing wow, but being obsessed with it enough to start your own guild.

Companies have started to recruit people with GM experience in big guilds because of their social networking skills and organization of people, resources, and time. If you think about it, it makes alot of sense.

It's not as destructive as most people think.

[Akshell]

I think it's because people try so hard to put things into simple black and white terms, either something is sociable (football, pubs, etc.) or something is unsociable (video games, excessive TV etc.) and also when video games come under attack gamers become so defensive and so adamant that video games are just like any other hobby. The truth is: gaming isn't. Not unless you look at things in very broad terms at least.

Video/electronic gaming is the newest form of entertainment, of course people from generations before video games aren't going to approve of excessive gaming or even fully understand it because it just isn't ever going to be part of their culture. Also it is seen as a fairly 'trashy' medium; while reading a book or watching a film can be just as unsociable and isolating as playing a video game, there is far more depth to such activities. While some novels and films can be called great literature the same is never going to be said of video games as they will never take the same kind of intellectual effort to unravel.

Now back to the point about the sociability of video games. Obviously it is easy as a gamer to argue the point on a video game forum that a game like WoW is sociable as technically that's what we're doing: we're brought together by our continued enjoyment and support of WoW. But the question you should really ask yourselves is whether or not it is actually 'socialising'. Everyone knows that humans need social interaction and forums like this and MMOs would appear to offer such interaction but it is much harder to argue that WoW is a sociable game than it is to argue that having some friends over to play Goldeneye is sociable (although the lack of excercise etc. means that you can still argue that such activities are not 'good').

Sociability is not just speaking to people or even just sharing a common interest which is all that you can typically have in WoW friendships. Humans also need to understand each other: to see the way we work, read each others body language and understand how people behave under different circumstances. When you play a game like WoW you interact with a very small cross-section of society who are only ever in one place and only ever doing one thing. Therefore under 'normal' definitions WoW cannot really be called sociable.

WoW is something different. It enables you to interact with people who share a common interest and while it may enable you to 'meet' people whom you could never, under normal circumstances, meet the interaction you have with these people is extremely limited. One is not so much socialising with them as one is working with them you come together occasionally to do help each other out but you can easily go your seperate ways without seeing each other again and at most you will only ever see each other under exactly the same circumstances.

Also the internet offers something which other social activities do not: anonymity. Under normal circumstance when you socialise you cannot hide from who you are, you are open to those who you are with (of course you can lie but there is an inevitabiility to getting caught). But on MMOs you may never be caught. It is a space in which you can exist as anything; you can be any race, creed, sex, lifestyle, age etc. you wish and the chances of getting caught out are very low.

[Penny]

Gaming does get a bad rap as a pointless waste of time and I am also loathe to discuss it freely most of the time. However, let's point out some GOOD things that can come from not only playing wow, but being obsessed with it enough to start your own guild.

Companies have started to recruit people with GM experience in big guilds because of their social networking skills and organization of people, resources, and time. If you think about it, it makes alot of sense.

It's not as destructive as most people think.So, you're suggesting putting video game experience on your resume?

I'm thinking that would be a mistake unless you were applying for a position at a game store.

[bwirum]

I'm thinking that would greatly depend on what kind of company we're talking about applying to, and not least what kind of people you expect to be reading your application.

[Stigg]

So, you're suggesting putting video game experience on your resume?

I'm thinking that would be a mistake unless you were applying for a position at a game store.

I agree....kinda. I can guaruntee that if I put on my application "I am "Wtfbbqsaucelol", guild master of <Cry More Noob>" on my application I would get nowhere in my line of work.

But other places....like the job that is now available to work at this website, it would be applicable. Once again, I wonder where Thortok is at.

[Lobothomy]

So, you're suggesting putting video game experience on your resume?

I'm thinking that would be a mistake unless you were applying for a position at a game store.


i actually did that and got the job.

Not saying its the only reason i get to be a manager ^^

[Foonyak]

Companies have started to recruit people with GM experience in big guilds because of their social networking skills and organization of people, resources, and time. If you think about it, it makes alot of sense.

I'm not sure if companies are actively recruiting folks with GM experience, but if you were to word that part ambiguously on your resume...

"Managed x number of people in regards to resource management (raid consumables), punctuality (showing up on time to raids), internal relations (quashing in-fighting and other drama), etc"...leaving out the information in parentheses.

And doing any and all elaboration of who you managed, when and where you managed them, on request at the interview, it could be viewed in a positive light. But like Stigg said, you don't want to put on your resume, "We wftbbqpwnt onyxia w/out pots, kings of AV/AB/WSG, ate your nubsauce guild for wtfbbqlunch".

[Pin]

So, you're suggesting putting video game experience on your resume?

I'm thinking that would be a mistake unless you were applying for a position at a game store.

I put that I was a class leader in my guild on my cv when I last applied for a job. I'm sitting at my desk at the job right now. To be honest though, I would have got it with or without that one comment. Did give us something to talk about in the interview though :)

[Stigg]

Lob and Pin, mind us askng where you work?

[Aswer]

(I originally posted this in response to the Nihilum thread, but seeing as its more off topic than that thread, and because I want to know what people think, I made it it's own topic. What happened in that thread is that many people decided to belittle the top guild in the world, judging them because of the time spent dedicated to this game.)

Why, as a video game player, do you face discrimination? Why is your "hobby" any less worthy of being a hobby than many others?
Personally, I find it a bit disheartening. I feel as if I've been fighting "video game" discrimination my whole life. When I was a child I became obsessed with the original 8-bit Nintendo. It's bright shiny colors, the games complexities, story lines, challenges, it was all too much for a boy of 8. I was hooked. However, when my mother found out when my new passion was, I was immediately met with condemnation. It was fine for me to go outside and play basketball, ride my bike, watch movies at an overnight sleep over...but if I was playing video games all afternoon, well that was just a giant waste of my time, as far as my mother was concerned.

Growing up, not much changed, except the Nintendo turned into a 16 then 32 then 64 bit machine. By the time I graduated from high school and moved off to college, the N64 and more importantly James Bond Goldeneye was the epicenter of my gaming universe. Me and my roommates would play til 3am for a week straight, trying to best the game and best each other. But now instead of my mother looking down on my playing, it became my female classmates.

College is the greatest time of your life, and half the reason for that is you have hundreds of young people who are trying to figure themselves out in a variety of ways, not the least of which is who they are romantically. Upon meeting a new female friend and the inevitable question of "what do you like to do?" comes up, for some reason I never mentioned that I like to spend hours upon hours trying to shoot Oddjobs overpowered shortness. For some reason, "I'm an avid reader" always seemed to be the more appropriate answer especially, "when I'm not donating my time to charity".

Towards the end of college and into the start of my professional life I settled down with one girl. Definitely not ready to get married, I moved in with her to see if maybe one day we would end up that way. Immediately enemy No. 1 became the World of Warcraft. She's never hated anything so much in her whole life as the game we all talk about on a daily basis. Over the course of a few months we worked toward some type of compromise, keeping her level of anger slightly below boiling. In the end my relationship didn't work out, but not due to WoW, but because we turned out not to be right for each other.

Today, as WoW becomes the first truly mainstream video game ever, we as players still struggle with stereotypes, judgements, and yes, condemnation. Not only does this sentiment come from people who don't play "video games", but judging by the thread about Nihilums application, it comes from ourselves. We judge ourselves as unworthy to those who choose to spend their time doing "better" things. We've been told for so long that our hobby is so horrible, that we've come to believe it. There are many people who play WoW, and feel guilty for the amount of time spent playing it.

I hope everyone can realize what's going on here. Our world is changing, but until we decide to change with it, change will be slow. Until we stop supporting untrue stereotypes from within, we'll be working against ourselves. I hope that one day playing "video games" will be seen along the same footing as building model cars, flying a kite, collecting memorabilia, playing soccer, playing the violin, or any of a number of hobbies in which human beings use to pass the time.

To be honest, I couldn't really care less about what others think of my hobbies, and sure as hell I ain't asking anyone, close friend or not, whether they like it or not. If someone pokes a comment that was unasked for, he/she will get the standard "mind your own damn business" from me. I'm 31 and I've been gaming since 6, sometimes feverishly, passionately. I've got my degrees, my business, my other hobbies that I'm equally passionate about, I don't need anyone to diss me for them, and I sure as hell ain't letting anyone do it.

I am now living with my girlfriend who is 35 and has never played a computer game (well except chess on the PC) in her life, and there is not the slightest hint of looking down on me due to this "hobby". If she did, she wouldn't be the one I am with, whatever my hobbies may be. Mutual respect and a healthy dose of freedom is the basis of any sane and potentially lasting relationship. All that I am expected to do is to let her know about changes in my raid schedule in case she wants to make some plans. Needless to say this kind of understanding and support is absolutely mutual.

Seriously now, I don't care whether "'playing games" is ever seen as an "acceptable" hobby. The people that do not respect what others do without harm to anyone are not in my world, I don't care about their opinions and I don't give a flying F about their acceptance or lack of it.

18 years ago when I ditched my skis and took up a board I was frowned upon by "seasoned skiers" in the resorts, now to see their children happily snowboarding, so now it's "OK" that we do it too.

And about the "putting video game experience" in a CV. Well, let's not be foolish, if the job one is applying for is at Blizzard, OK, but I wouldn't put down my MTB Downhill experience or the number of Boardercross runs I've done when applying for a PR management position, for example. Let's put things into perspective, gaming is entertainment for most, and that's the way it will stay.

[chriztofer]

Good post OP. You summed it up so well.

Console video games (and to a lesser degree, computer games) are becoming more and more accepatable by society, but has a LONG way to go. A huge turn IMO was around when games like Halo and GTA came out. For some reason, it suddenly became "cool" to play XBOX or whatever. But again, computer games are still looked on kinda negatively. Its dumb, but just the way it is for now sadly.

[PTiger]

Good post OP. You summed it up so well.

Console video games (and to a lesser degree, computer games) are becoming more and more accepatable by society, but has a LONG way to go. A huge turn IMO was around when games like Halo and GTA came out. For some reason, it suddenly became "cool" to play XBOX or whatever. But again, computer games are still looked on kinda negatively. Its dumb, but just the way it is for now sadly.

Thank you for the compliment. And I understand that computer games are still looked on kinda negatively, I just don't understand why computer games are looked on negatively by gamers themselves! It drives me crazy.

[Foonyak]

Thank you for the compliment. And I understand that computer games are still looked on kinda negatively, I just don't understand why computer games are looked on negatively by gamers themselves! It drives me crazy.

A lot of that may have to do with so many of the (popular) console titles being sports titles and the GTA series and similarly styled games, while most of the (popular) PC games are FPS (which finally started getting big on consoles with Clancy's titles and HALO), strategy, or (MMO)RPG titles. The last two listed are frowned upon by pop culture for being 'geeky'.

[poopsmcgee]

Thank you for the compliment. And I understand that computer games are still looked on kinda negatively, I just don't understand why computer games are looked on negatively by gamers themselves! It drives me crazy.
we all see where your coming from ptiger. but i dont' think the majority of us or gamers in general look down on other gamers. sure us pc gamers can call console gamers noobs with their noobsticks. i know i sure feel like a noob when i'm playing the wii/gamecube with my boys, but thats just how it goes. like in the other thread, its just those who play to an extreme level like those nillium guys who will always be look at strangely by gamers and non-gamers alike. i think ur real problem is that you care enough about what some other person think to "drive you crazy." chill out man and get urself to where u couldn't give a rats ass what someone else thinks bout ur hobby and u'll be in a much better place.

[Wintrow]

I work at a company that makes ERP-software (the kind that keeps track of your articles, your sales, your inventory, when and how much you're gonna need to order from suppliers, ...).

Two years ago they took over another company that specialised in Web-development. These became the EBU-guys (E-Business).

Now the EBU-guys used to take time out during luchtime to play MOHAA (Medal of Honor: Allied Assault). As an avid gamer myself I strongly endorsed this activity.

Skip to the present:
- We still game at lunch time
the company has seen the potential for teambuilding and is offering to
- buy 15 copies of 1 game
- dedicate a whole server to running a game-server
- the company is also using it as a recruitment line "you know... we also game here". This is great as it strengthens the gaming community here.

At home things are still acceptable. I am quite lucky that my wife's brother is an avid Nintendo console gamer, so she has learnt that games can be fun. Had he been a PSX-fan all the sports/shooting games would've detracted her instead.
This has led to her also having an interest in WoW and thus an account of her own.

My family however is quite different. At family parties, as soon as we talk about WoW (my brother and brother-in-law also play it) everyone's eyes glaze over and they turn to eachother with "are they talking about that game again", and "yep", and "sigh" *bored looks*.

My own parents are exceptions. They have at some point discovered and mastered Tetris and several Nintendo-esque games on this NES-clone (we couldn't afford the real thing). Still, gaming on PC is considered a bit too much as it isolates you in your own room.

Guess I can't really complain :smiley:

Anyway, luckely the anti-gaming old brigade will eventually fade out. Us pioneers will be the old people and at our own ripe age we will be able to smile and see that gaming has become as common as soccer and football is now. Kids then will revolt off course and re-discover watching sports and the thing start all over again :grin:.

[Naedea]

Thank you for the compliment. And I understand that computer games are still looked on kinda negatively, I just don't understand why computer games are looked on negatively by gamers themselves! It drives me crazy.

“An alcoholic is someone you don’t like who drinks just as much as you do.” — Dylan Thomas.

Casual gamers look down on hardcore gamers for having "no life." Similarly, even hardcore gamers feel they can belittle the really really really hardcore gamers.

Part of it's jealousy. If someone else is more successful than you within the context of the game, then it's comforting to find some other fault in them, even if you have to find it outside the game, or make it up. This is where the "fat antisocial slob in mom's basement" idiom comes from.

[rgirty]

“An alcoholic is someone you don’t like who drinks just as much as you do.” — Dylan Thomas.

Casual gamers look down on hardcore gamers for having "no life." Similarly, even hardcore gamers feel they can belittle the really really really hardcore gamers.

Part of it's jealousy. If someone else is more successful than you within the context of the game, then it's comforting to find some other fault in them, even if you have to find it outside the game, or make it up. This is where the "fat antisocial slob in mom's basement" idiom comes from.

People like to point out faults in others to make themselves look good? yep.

[Penny]

If a gamer went buggy and shot up his workplace or his school, there would be people who would point out that games cause the problem, BUT we would all know that...

... it's not the game, it's the gamer.

SO... why would you think someone who puts a higher priority on escapism than reality deserves being defended? And, what part of his not having a life would you believe people would be jealous of?

Virtual accomplishments don't count, and the more you think they do, the more help you need. Once it becomes more than casual entertainment, you've lost it.