Top DPS classes

[rgirty]

Due to the debate over in the paladin forum where I am being told that paladins can and are often #1 on the damage meter and people are running 10 man pally only kara groups what do you feel the top dps classes are? Listed below is the paladin dps thread.

http://forums.worldofwar.net/showthread.php?p=3949462&posted=1#post3949462

Are paladins #1 dps? Is it time for rogues/mages/locks/hunters to re-roll?

[Hannable]

Maybe a paladin in the Best DPS pally PLate gear out there pre Raid can do good damage but any mage/rogue in the best gear they can get pre Raid will always be able to come out on top. Ya ok maybe the pally can put out a great amount of damage when he uses his trinkets and all that stuff. But on my rogue Im hitting 200-500dmg non crit swings every 1second off hand and 2.3 second main hand for a whole boss fight no cool downs just straight white damge. Let me pop my trinkets, throw in a few crits, some SS and Evis and i easily would out DPS a pally anyday of the week.

[Kitano]

Not from what I can tell. In the last 2 Kara runs I was in the top DPS was:

Raid 1
#1 Mage
#2 Hunter (me)
#3 Mage

Raid 2
#1 Mage (Same guy. Massive DPS but many deaths.)
#2 Hunter (me)
#3 Hunter

Our top Warlock wasn't around but he would have been #1 if he was. Who needs to re-roll?

[Valshenna]

Because the ongoing perpetual raging debates on the official forums of X versus Y class at Z role aren't rampant enough?

/pass

[rgirty]

Oh so your saying paladin dps isn't #1?

[Hannable]

I dont care if a Rogue is number one or not this isn't really a debate its just fact well geared rogues/mages/warlocks will always be higher DPS then a pally.
NO pally is not a #1 DPS class it is a great support class that can put out reasonable DPS at best under good situations. But it truley shines as a buffer, cleanser, and a spot healer.

[rgirty]

So your basically saying they are a utility class and aren't going to wtfpwn the dmg meter in raids or 5 mans?

Unless the rogues/mages they are grouped with are not doing their job?

[galermon]

So your basically saying they are a utility class and aren't going to wtfpwn the dmg meter in raids or 5 mans?

Unless the rogues/mages they are grouped with are not doing their job?

Hey Rgirty

I have seen your posts in response to Gmedina and Jschilds posts on the paladin forum about, "Paladins can do damage" thread. I wouldn't really bother going any further than what was posted on there. It really isn't worth the time. I posted something after your postings this afternoon. It just seems that Gmedina is dead set on the belief that Paladins can out DPS every other class...consistently. Don't bother him with excuses as in talent specs or players who aren't aware or aren't as good as others.

Pretty much anyone who has challenged him in his opinion is getting a backlash from him. He truly believes that the paladin class is the class for DPS. For those who have played 3-5 different classes, inclusive of a paladin class, and have tried every spec upteen times over understands how much paladins CANNOT DPS comparatively to real DPS classes that are specced for pure DPS. That is exactly the reason I have 6 different level 70's. My first character was a ret pally from day one of WoW launch. 12 months as a Ret Paladin with 30% crit. People used to call me stupid, crazy, etc. I still believed in my heart back then that I could out DPS most classes...until the day I rolled and got my mage up to snuff with my paladin. Also the day I made my rogue...then again when I made my 2nd mage on another server.

[Mallstrop]

In a 10 pally group, there's quite a good chance that atleast 1 paladin will come top 3 on the DPS meter.

TBC seems to have put a lot more emphasis on group make up.

It depends a lot on which buffs you're getting.

Shadow priests and warlocks stack very well especially if they can get an elemental shaman.

Rogues are very good DPS, mix that with a warrior (Battle shout and 4% melee damage taken) a Shaman (totems), a paladin or 2 and you'll see some silly damage.

[snrofgar]

resto druid dps!!!

[Imraath]

If the Paladin's DPSing, who's healing the tank?! ;)

[Wintrow]

10 pally group, all yelling 'HEAL !!111 FFS'

I can just see it now :tongue:

[Kerosene]

i have never seen a pally "dps" ever... all pallies on my server (horde side) are tanks or healers.

[det]

Conversation I had with a feral druid in Karazhan yesterday:

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/372/karadamageanonymor9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Our Paladins are indeed either OT or Healer...don't know a dps Pally, so I cannot comment, but certainly would like to see some kind of dps proof...

[Magikhat]

pally #1 in dps? I think not

rogues and locks are on top

[moopy]

i have never seen a pally "dps" ever... all pallies on my server (horde side) are tanks or healers.

I've seen them try to dps, and also seen the long, defensive self-deluding forum posts about how they can dps, no, really, more damage than a murloc minipet honest. A waste of a slot- especially since pallies are such top class healers and quite viable as tankadins these days too. I blame druids for being able to spec/gear to tank, heal or dps- gives other classes ideas above their station :)

That said, pallies who think they're DPS are funny, as long as they aren't in your raid. I wonder what the TBC version of "Arcanite Reaper HOOOOOO!" is?

Last time we went to Kara, my little ghetto-geared hunter was number two on damage done, and I am quite content with that. Our top lock's 30k (or however much it was- I forget, silly numbers) curse of doom on the Curator during evocation pretty much sealed my fate :)

[alanthecelt]

Rogues and mages should be able to top the metres due to reduced threat.
however pallys can over dps with less chance of dying due to their armour...
As for locks, yes they can top the metres, but im sure they die lots

[det]

As for locks, yes they can top the metres, but im sure they die lots

I didn't die other than on wipes on that raid where I posted the meter from. Make sure the raid has KTM, stay at number 2 or 3 threadwise and always refresh DoTs on time. Use your trinkets and instants wisely and don't be afraid to burn 5-10 soulshards on a bossfight.

Well...maybe our rogue and hunter just couldn't be bothered to go all out...and ofc +1002 shadowdamage is very juicy...

Our top lock's 30k (or however much it was- I forget, silly numbers) curse of doom on the Curator during evocation pretty much sealed my fate :)

71 000 last week..I was like WOOOOT?????

[Aerath]

The only time a paladin will be no.1 in DPS is in a full Paladin run.

[Xmcdaniel]

resto druid dps!!!

Mookin DPS!!!!

[Steamboat]

I have often heard of Paladin main tanks topping the damage meters. More so in 5-mans than in raids, but I have heard of it a lot.

The reason is that between retribution aura and consecration, they are basically AoEing the entire time. If they have the right gear to make those numbers consistently high, then yes I can see it happening.

But I have never heard of an occassion where a Paladin was filling a pure DPS spot and came out ahead of the casters, rogues, dps warriors, or feral druids. (Excepting cases where they severely outclass them in either gear or level.)

[gmedina]

Hey Rgirty

I have seen your posts in response to Gmedina and Jschilds posts on the paladin forum about, "Paladins can do damage" thread. I wouldn't really bother going any further than what was posted on there. It really isn't worth the time. I posted something after your postings this afternoon. It just seems that Gmedina is dead set on the belief that Paladins can out DPS every other class...consistently. Don't bother him with excuses as in talent specs or players who aren't aware or aren't as good as others.

Pretty much anyone who has challenged him in his opinion is getting a backlash from him. He truly believes that the paladin class is the class for DPS. For those who have played 3-5 different classes, inclusive of a paladin class, and have tried every spec upteen times over understands how much paladins CANNOT DPS comparatively to real DPS classes that are specced for pure DPS. That is exactly the reason I have 6 different level 70's. My first character was a ret pally from day one of WoW launch. 12 months as a Ret Paladin with 30% crit. People used to call me stupid, crazy, etc. I still believed in my heart back then that I could out DPS most classes...until the day I rolled and got my mage up to snuff with my paladin. Also the day I made my rogue...then again when I made my 2nd mage on another server.


LOL so beliving i can do it and doing it and stating that i have is backlash...ok.


I....oh nvm.

[Rastaputin]

i've got a 70 pally and have toyed with the idea of going dps.. the gear required to even get off the bottom of the dps charts is stupidly hard to get. any other dps spec/class who had the same level of gear as that would, unless retarded, do more dps anyway.

5 mans are another story. i've been healing a prot pally and had my sanc aura up, he has his conc aura up, and between cons and vengeance judgements (i generally wack a few vengeance on mobs in between heals because i'm an insane healer that's right i'll taunt that mob off you just to see it slowly lumber towards me), his dps was pretty bloody nice for a tank. even beat a few noobs or so.

but top kara dps charts? i don't bloody think so. even in a 10 man pally group they wouldn't top the dps. the spider who hits you for 1 dmg just before you wtfpwnbbq it will outdps the 10 pallies.

gmedina i want to see screenshots of dps meters or i'll cuss you bad, you hear me? that's right gmedina your face is mush until you post those DM report screenies.

MUSHFACE, GTFO!!!!!1

the rectum line is, pallies CAN do some reasonable dps, but it's incredibly gear dependant and keeping out the variables (skill and gear), i can't think of another spec/class that won't out dps the pally in most raids and dungeons.

and who brings melee dps anyway? damn healstealers. gtfo.

:)

[IRPander]

If pallys want to go out of their way to prove that they can out DPS another class strictly because they "feel" like they can, then let them. I'll stick to my role and know what I can and can't do.

[Schift]

As if the thread on the paladin forum wasn't long enough we have to have this one. :undecided:

I just read the entire book of a thread on the pally forum and I didn't once see any paladin claiming that a paladin is the best dps class.

There are some who over-estimate the dps of a ret pally and even more who underestimate it. A retribution spec'd paladin (keep in mind that a retadin is perhaps one of the hardest classes to gear in an efficient manner) isn't a wasted spot in most parties. With all fields being equal, a retribution paladin will simply not put out more raw sustained dps than a dps class spec'd for pve.

Ret paladins bring along with them a plethora of goodies to help out the team as well as options for different encounters within an instance. This becomes less viable in min/maxing for raids and heroics, but it's still all very possible.

I just don't want to see this thread stretched out by people arguing two different topics.

One other point (condensed):
Person 1: "I, as a ret paladin, sometimes, even consistently, come in 1st or 2nd or near 2nd on damage meters for 5 mans"
Person 2: "Your group was asleep, not geared well, or not spec'd well, or you must have had two other pallys in your group :rolleyes: "

- 5 mans are a very unreliable way of judging top dps. Person 1 was probably not arguing that their class is the best dps, but that it has significant enough dps to top charts when other classes aren't at their maximum potential which proves, not that they are the best dps class, but that they are greater at dpsing than those many understand them to be. In 5 mans you see too much of a diversity in damages to compare classes in any sort of accurate way. Person 2 is usually misreading person 1 and over-countering them because of personal experiences with not as well played/geared paladins.

Every class has its dps spec, and because paladins are still hybrids while dpsing, they are not designed to match the dps of other classes. This would make them overpowered and cause them to be nerfed yet again. :sad:

In fact, speaking as a tank (no, not a paladin tank), I would be very dismayed if a ret paladin did do the same dps as other classes because with their lack of aggro dissipation skills (their blessing wouldn't be enough), I would have an extremely difficult time holding aggro from them. It's hard enough as is with a well geared ret pally to hold aggro.

For pvp, however, it's that same darn burst damage that makes them hard to tank for, that makes them quite deadly when geared well.

Ret paladins are a rare class in general and it's even more scarce to find a good one with good gear and all these poor ones often lead the WoW community in general to take regard them as insignificant and even as a joke. Like any good class and spec, they have their place and can be an asset. Still, as the point of the post looking purely at dps and not at value of the class overall, paladins probably are the lowest dps class in WoW.

As to the highest dps classes? I would have to say warlocks, rogues, mages and hunters are the cream of the crop at what they were made to do. Other classes can get pretty close as well imo.

Also for clarification I'm talking end-game.

[Malentra]

Tying to take a logical approach on this debate, its best to look at the way blizzard designs each classes' dps capabilities. Obviously there will be encounter-specific circumstances that favour certain classes over others, but in general it typically looks like this. (at least in Blizzard's balancing *goals*)

Assuming full PvE DPS spec and gear:
1: Rogues and possibly DPS Warriors (this is not true currently, will probably change after 2.1 and when tailored gear starts becoming on par or inferior to raid drops)
2: Fire Mages, Warlocks, Hunters, Certain Off-spec classes when not mana/threat limited
3: Moonkin/Feral Druids, Elemental/Enhancement Shaman, Shadow Priests when Threat or Mana-limited; Fire/Arc and Frost Mages
4: Retribution Paladins

Balancing as far as I know is just based on what Blizzard draws up as the "baseline" for each class. They expect DPS to be competitive but will tweak design to give certain classes the edge. For example, rogues and warriors should have a slight edge on dps due to the fact they have few/limited group buffs and utility, and are subject to melee range disadvantages and melee damage.

Blizzard has gone though some effort to make DPS-spec hybrids viable, with each giving some group benefit of a type in addition to strong dps: this includes shadow priests (vamp touch), elemental shaman (totem of wrath), enchancement shaman (10% AP boost), feral druids (improved leader of the pack), moonkin (moonkin aura), etc. Typically at max dps output they'll be close to the primary ranged dps classes (mages, warlocks, hunters) but will have some limitations. (threat, mana, survivability, etc.)

Retribution Paladins can put out strong dps yes, and its hard to be fair to them here. Blizzard has been fine-tuning Ret Paladin dps to be more group-buff oriented and less max damage oriented (I'm guessing for PvP reasons more than PvE) It has yet to be seen if its better to have a Ret Pally, Enhancement Shaman or Feral Druid in a melee dps role in raids, mainly because weapons, gear, spec, group buffs, and group benefits all affect each of these classes differently. The other problem here is that recent instance design seems to favour ranged damage over melee damage, and shamans and druids can spec for ranged dps, while Paladins can't.

The biggest thing here is typically Paladins have been better in a healing role than a druid or shaman, and therefore the other two hybrid classes would be more likely to get the nod to spec for melee dps (or caster dps) over the paladin. Add to the fact that many raiding paladins actually rolled the class to be healers or tanks, not dps.

With 2.1, Paladins are more on par with the other healing classes, along with the fact that encounters are changed to be more melee friendly. I actually would like to see a fully dps specced ret pally with top pally-dps gear and typical raid buffs go full out in several encounters and see how he/she does.

A video would be great here, to dispel or confirm other classes conceptions about what a pally can and cannot do in a dps role.

[tonyg]

first off, bar-none on non-agro fights like Shade, a DPS dual wield shaman using epic crafted mace and stacking windfury buffs will blow away every other class. Last Shade fight our Shaman put out 270,000 damage. They are broken beyond belief. Top Rogues and Mages on that fight put out about 200,000 damage if they are good, so as of now they are by FAR top DPS. However i'm aware that blizzard will be fixing this. On agro sensitive fights, rogues still come out on top.

[Malentra]

first off, bar-none on non-agro fights like Shade, a DPS dual wield shaman using epic crafted mace and stacking windfury buffs will blow away every other class. Last Shade fight our Shaman put out 270,000 damage. They are broken beyond belief. Top Rogues and Mages on that fight put out about 200,000 damage if they are good, so as of now they are by FAR top DPS. However i'm aware that blizzard will be fixing this. On agro sensitive fights, rogues still come out on top.

Add to that a well-geared Fury warrior. Our fury warrior was putting out about that much damage on shade. (at least 30% more than the next highest on the meter) And that's including the fact he was interrupting casts. (although I'm sure the enhancement shaman in your group was earth shocking too).

Enhancement shammies are great dps currently, and I'd be very hard pressed to say "nerf them" typically because they have so many other issues like threat, survivability, hard time getting into heroic groups, etc. I like my shammies. :P

On a personal note I think that rogues should always be top dps in fights where the encounter dynamics allow it. Followed by enhancement shaman and dps warriors. Then Fire Mages, Affliction/Destro locks, and MM Hunters. Then the rest of the hybrid classes and other specs of locks/mages/hunters. You'll never always see this order though, because everyone has different levels of gear, and encounters favour certain classes' damage over others.

[lula]

a pally can top the dmg meters in kara, if all the other classes are hitting wth poles...

[Kerosene]

my warrior spec'd 31/30 was out dps'ing similarly geared rogue (all blue) & better geared mage by 5% or so when i last ran arc. i'm not saying i could out damage all rogues & mages, but i was suprised to see that i was on top. i was consistently pumping out 1700-2000 crits and of course whenever there were multiple mobs my WW's and cleaves were making my numbers jump quite a bit. never the less, i was impressed :P

is it just me or do mages seem to be lacking in the DPS dept. lately? they seem toned down a bit from what i remember seeing pre-tbc.

[rgirty]

my warrior spec'd 31/30 was out dps'ing similarly geared rogue (all blue) & better geared mage by 5% or so when i last ran arc. i'm not saying i could out damage all rogues & mages, but i was suprised to see that i was on top. i was consistently pumping out 1700-2000 crits and of course whenever there were multiple mobs my WW's and cleaves were making my numbers jump quite a bit. never the less, i was impressed :P

is it just me or do mages seem to be lacking in the DPS dept. lately? they seem toned down a bit from what i remember seeing pre-tbc.

Might just be the mages your playing with, all the mages I play with and the mage I play are neck and neck with rogues. I play with a fireball mage/combat rogue in a lot of 5 mans. The mage typically wins by .5% the difference being some non elites or aoe damage somewhere. Take out AoE mobs and their damage is almost exactly the same.

It really depends on the encounter tho, if your group is OP for the instance a fireball mage isn't going to do as well as their dps is better on sustained fights, an arcane/3 minute mage will probably reign supreme here with all that burst.

Different situations, different specs do well. Mages however are still near the top on dps, only behind rogues IMO.

[Schift]

a pally can top the dmg meters in kara, if all the other classes are hitting wth poles...

Thank you for your contribution to this thread, it's very...insightful...:sad: Moving on:
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I haven't really been able to play with that many enhancement shaman, but I have played with a few. Not enough to really draw good conclusions.

Are they really that high DPS unbarred currently, and if so, do you think this is Blizzard's intention. Shaman have a lot of utility and add a lot to the group. Wouldn't letting them have that much dps also be a little bit out of balance in pvp where threat really isn't an issue? Or is this just a sustained DPS thing? I guess I just don't know that much about shaman.

I occasionally face enhancement shaman in PvP, and don't find overpowered. It may be their gear, but how exactly do they put out that much DPS?

I keep hearing that they are broken now and I'm not sure how, I suppose I'll jump over to the shaman forum to try and learn something I don't know. :smiley:

[IRPander]

Thank you for your contribution to this thread, it's very...insightful...:sad: Moving on:
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I haven't really been able to play with that many enhancement shaman, but I have played with a few. Not enough to really draw good conclusions.

Are they really that high DPS unbarred currently, and if so, do you think this is Blizzard's intention. Shaman have a lot of utility and add a lot to the group. Wouldn't letting them have that much dps also be a little bit out of balance in pvp where threat really isn't an issue? Or is this just a sustained DPS thing? I guess I just don't know that much about shaman.

I occasionally face enhancement shaman in PvP, and don't find overpowered. It may be their gear, but how exactly do they put out that much DPS?

I keep hearing that they are broken now and I'm not sure how, I suppose I'll jump over to the shaman forum to try and learn something I don't know. :smiley:

The enhancement shammy in my guild is only 49 and he can out DPS the 53 Warr in the guild. Rockbiter pretty much makes him godly.

[Lalaust]

The enhancement shammy in my guild is only 49 and he can out DPS the 53 Warr in the guild. Rockbiter pretty much makes him godly.

The warrior is - what? Arms specced? Meaning that he is doing mainly burst damage. And the enhancement shaman is most likely dw - gives him a better DPS.

[Lalaust]

I occasionally face enhancement shaman in PvP, and don't find overpowered. It may be their gear, but how exactly do they put out that much DPS?


WF and DW - the spec is more of less depended on the WF to proc. And when it does, and if the shaman has a great 2h - you will almost get one shotted (if he has the right gear).

[earindur]

if i got out dps'd (affliction warlock) by a paladin i would commit WoW suicide.

[moopy]

Enhancement shammies are awesome. Their damage is staggering, the buff they give to other physical DPS is wonderful, but because Unleashed Rage is bugged, they generate more threat than they should (blizz said they will fix it, but don't hold your breath. Anyway, they are threat limited- on raid bosses where you mustn't pull aggro off the tank, they can never dps are hard as a hunter or a rogue, so it's not quite that simple.

[EdvinMedvind]

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/372/karadamageanonymor9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Some of those DPS'ers are really horrible judging from their position relative to the MT.

[Oatmealsmurf]

It's all very situational. One night I ran 3 heroics with the same group back to back. In Shadowlabs the rogue led dmg meters handily. In Mechenar our mage destroyed us. In Steamvaults I destroyed them (lock). It's just based on the nature of many of the fights as to how well your class will do.

That's really the bottomline... in fights like the Prince where dps warriors and rogues have to run out of range of shadow nova after enfeebled they suffer. On fights like Aran they can be absolutely mindboggling. Most of it depends on what you're running. Any class properly specced, geared and played can top dps meters in the right situation.

[Valshenna]

^Amen brother, amen!

[Eonblue]

[QUOTE=Mallstrop;3949704]In a 10 pally group, there's quite a good chance that atleast 1 paladin will come top 3 on the DPS meter.

QUOTE]

LAWL, in a 10 man pally raid, i would also assume that a pally will be in a top three...i bet a pally will also be #1

[pyros templar]

my warrior spec'd 31/30 was out dps'ing similarly geared rogue (all blue) & better geared mage by 5% or so when i last ran arc. i'm not saying i could out damage all rogues & mages, but i was suprised to see that i was on top. i was consistently pumping out 1700-2000 crits and of course whenever there were multiple mobs my WW's and cleaves were making my numbers jump quite a bit. never the less, i was impressed :P

is it just me or do mages seem to be lacking in the DPS dept. lately? they seem toned down a bit from what i remember seeing pre-tbc.

Yes, mage dps is hurting quite a bit - not reaaaally noticeable on a 5 man, but as soon as you enter a boss fight...

The reasons for that are threefold:
-End of rolling ignites (buggy ignites instead :S)
-10% "tax" on bonus dmg of our primary nukes
-our mana escalation from lvl 60 sucks (and the new rank spells don't help much also)

Also, the boss fights in TBC are much less tank & spank - more mobile fights, while more interesting - do hurt DD dealers a lot. Gruul and Aran comes to mind. I remember our last Gruul fight where a SP topped the charts in competition with a very well geared rogue - even beat a non afliction lock that was with 1555 +Shadow dmg (not even want to say for how much he beat me :()

[Kerosene]

LAWL, in a 10 man pally raid, i would also assume that a pally will be in a top three...i bet a pally will also be #1

Joke

-------

(o.O) <--- your head

[Justinledwards]

DPS shammies. Did Underbog with 4 level 70s, + my shammy at 65. SW stats reported Feral Druid at top, me 2nd, 2 hunters left way behind :)

The feral druid has 2300AP and 31% crit :). So I didn't pull aggro once. Going to have to work on that

[Schift]

DPS shammies. Did Underbog with 4 level 70s, + my shammy at 65. SW stats reported Feral Druid at top, me 2nd, 2 hunters left way behind :)

The feral druid has 2300AP and 31% crit :). So I didn't pull aggro once. Going to have to work on that

Druid was tanking?

[Oatmealsmurf]

your hunters were horrible to be out dpsed by a shammy 5 levels lower. No way around that. Shammies can do some amazing dps (again in the right situations) we have an enhance shammy who is jut wicked but your group example only illustrates how bad your hunters were. Not to mention you are all too high for underbog and hunters do need time to settle into a shot rotation... since all the fights would have been short (due to outleveling the instance) your dmg will have been artificially inflated as enhance shammies are burst dmg personified.

[moopy]

The funny thing is that the same shammy's DPS will suck in raids, as if you go all-out you'll pull aggro and die. That's when the hunter's safe, steady damage will come to the fore, on mobs with tonnes of HP.

[Oatmealsmurf]

exactly... on the short dps race type of fights our rogues, mages and said shammy usually win out. But once the fights get longer our locks and hunters move right to the top of the ladder. It's usually about the 2 1/2 - 3 minute mark I think when our affliction locks and hunters get ahead and don't look back.

[Justinledwards]

Ok hunters back in your boxes, frost traps or whatever :P

The hunter's weren't horrible (middling to average I think I am better with a hunter thats just me) - they were on CC duties. so 2 mobs trapped out of each 4 pull, then 'feral' druid tanking and me DPS. Druid was in DPS gear (doing about 6-700 tps), I jumped in after a couple of seconds. Nice situation for a 'squishy' DPSer.

The point was - the damage output is amazing. You are correct - the hunters didnt get a lot of rotations going... stalker was dead after one levitate...

And I understand the difference - I worry about long term DPS on raid-bosses. Not an issue with mana but definitely with a huge aggro build up.

You aren't fond of threat reduction gear on hunters moopy, how about on Shammies? That much covered drape with subtletly on it and blessing of salvation should be pretty good

[Schift]

I'm surprised the druid beat all of you in bear mode. That's quite rare since the great nerf. Bear damage has dropped more than 50% I'd say and especially if he wasn't tanking 4 mobs at a time. I don't see this as being a great example, but I get the point that enhancement shaman do pretty nice dps when they don't have to worry about aggro.

[Justinledwards]

Yeah this bear is awesome. He can grab a mob and on my hunter I can go full nuke straight away and he holds the aggro.

So - what's the best steady damage for a enh shammy - auto-attack with ES rank 1 for interrupts? then when boss is on its 2/3 - /12 way down to nuke the DPS?

Sigh level 66... I am so looking forward to 70 and raiding. I am even happy to go resto (got a healing set, been building a spelldmg/naturedmg set for grinding, and I also have my hunter :)

[moopy]

You aren't fond of threat reduction gear on hunters moopy, how about on Shammies? That much covered drape with subtletly on it and blessing of salvation should be pretty good

Sadly, the level of threat reduction it offers, and the crummy cooldown means that it's a drop in the ocean. Also, good luck with the subtlety enchant, it's a Twin Emps drop, so it's a lot of faffing about to find someone to do it. A two percent threat reduction isn't a whole lot, either.

BoS isn't a bad idea, but the real way forward is just to reduce the frequency of SS/ES to a level where you're consistently under the threat generation of the tank. Salvation will help with this of course, and let you DPS a little harder, but you're still threat-limited. You have to accept that if you want to be raid safe (ooh what a horrible turn of phrase), you're going to be putting out less damage than the hunters and the rogues. However, people will be rather fond of your agi/str totems, heroism and unleashed rage, so it's not all bad. If your group doesn't have a tank, you can also drop a totem to reduce aggro, too.

Threat-limited melee DPS is one of the least useful options in raids. At melee range, you only need to out-aggro by 10%, at range it's 30% before you pull the mob off a tank. The most annoying raid DPSser I ever met was an idiot DPS warrior with Thunderfury, constantly pulling aggro in Naxxramas and dying. I was playing my priest at the time, and fretted and apologised the first time he died- don't appreciate people dying on my watch. After a while, I realised that he was just a showboating buttmonkey and stopped worrying, let him enjoy his repair bill and stopped trying to save him. It almost goes without saying that if he pulled aggro and I spam healed him, when he subsequently died (which he would, wearing mail and DPS plate, and no shield), I'd get aggro, which isn't cool.

[Magentia]

Karazhan is situational. Due to the variety in the fights no one class wins for overall dps. I can hold my own in any raid and stay near the top of the charts. DPS pallies are hit and miss and very very gear dependant. I would take a rogue or an enhance shaman over a dps pally any day of the week, especially the shammy. overall better utility. A dps pally will never be anything but a utility class. They are slightly useful, if they are your only pally they have some buffs, but there are alot of better templates out there pushing alot more dps.

[moopy]

"DPS pally".. *giggle*

[earindur]

"DPS pally".. *giggle*

im glad im not the only one.:laugh:

[Valshenna]

Using damage meters as the be all and end all measurement of a players contribution to the dps of the raid is retarded, imo. What's better, a player that does 10% more DPS than anyone else, or a player that improves the dps of 4 other players by 3% each, yet does only marginal dps himself?

[rgirty]

Using damage meters as the be all and end all measurement of a players contribution to the dps of the raid is retarded, imo. What's better, a player that does 10% more DPS than anyone else, or a player that improves the dps of 4 other players by 3% each, yet does only marginal dps himself?

How do you know he's boosting the other 4 players by 3%?

The reason dmg meters are so popular is that you can measure performance with it.

For utility classes there is no measurement. There isn't a meter called "boost other classes dps"

[earindur]

Using damage meters as the be all and end all measurement of a players contribution to the dps of the raid is retarded, imo. What's better, a player that does 10% more DPS than anyone else, or a player that improves the dps of 4 other players by 3% each, yet does only marginal dps himself?

regardless, I'd still bring a shadow priest before a dps pala.

[moopy]

regardless, I'd still bring a shadow priest before a dps pala.

Or an enhancement shammy, even. Pallies are great healers, useful tanks. If someone deliberately obsesses over the one thing they suck at, it's a danger sign that you ignore at your own risk, as they probably have a lousy grasp/some strange ideas about other stuff too.

[Valshenna]

How do you know he's boosting the other 4 players by 3%?

The reason dmg meters are so popular is that you can measure performance with it.

For utility classes there is no measurement. There isn't a meter called "boost other classes dps"

Which was exactly my point. People often assume that a supporting class isn't worthwhile because they're too caught up staring at the damage meters, and the damage meters simply don't show the amount of damage added by the support class. And if you're concerned about measuring performance, more likely than not using the damage meters you end up comparing apples to oranges and end up with unfair and inaccurate performance measurements.

And whether or not you would want to bring one player over another player typically has a lot less to do with what either player is and instead should be based more on what else you already have. You gotta look at the bigger picture. Already got a Priest but don't have any Paladins? I would probably take a "DPS"-Paladin over a Shadow Priest. Already got a Paladin and a Priest, I would probably take the Shadow Priest.

[rgirty]

Which was exactly my point. People often assume that a supporting class isn't worthwhile because they're too caught up staring at the damage meters, and the damage meters simply don't show the amount of damage added by the support class. And if you're concerned about measuring performance, more likely than not using the damage meters you end up comparing apples to oranges and end up with unfair and inaccurate performance measurements.

And whether or not you would want to bring one player over another player typically has a lot less to do with what either player is and instead should be based more on what else you already have. You gotta look at the bigger picture. Already got a Priest but don't have any Paladins? I would probably take a "DPS"-Paladin over a Shadow Priest. Already got a Paladin and a Priest, I would probably take the Shadow Priest.

I'm not talking about class balance.

I'm talking about adding pure dps to dps slots. We have all the bases covered, we have a shadow priest, a holy priest we have tanks, paladins and druids/shammy for buffs. We are looking at dps.

We aren't going to add a second paladin for dps. Thats why I asked what the top dps classes are, someone in the paladin forum was trying to convince me that they could top the damage meter in 5 and 10 man content.

[Valshenna]

But it's impossible to maximize the effectiveness of your raid if you don't look at class balance.

For example, assume for the sake of argument that you know an awesome DPS-paladin who consistently tops the DPS charts. But also assume that you have a small pool of characters to choose from for slotting your raid, and you've already promised the following people that they would be slotted for the raid. There's one slot left over, and you have to decide between your awesome DPS-Paladin and a good shadow priest.

Main-Tank: Protection Paladin
Main-Assist/Off-Tank: Arms Warrior
Main-Healer1: Holy Priest
Main-Healer2: Holy Paladin
Off-Healer/DPS Hybrid: Elemental Shaman
DPS1: Fire Mage
DPS2: Destruction Warlock (fire focused)
DPS3: Affliction Warlock (shadow focused)
DPS4: Marksman Hunter
DPS5: ??? Empty Slot.

Given the choice between your totally awesome DPS-Paladin and a competent Shadow Priest, I would hands down take the Shadow Priest. They would synergize much better with the rest of the group and simply bring more to the table. Although having a third paladin would be nice for the added blessings and auras, it would be a bit redundant and not as effective. Even if the Paladin would individually do more damage than the Shadow Priest in this particular case, the overall benefit of the shadow priest would be much better than the Paladin.

But given a different roster, your end decision might be completely different. Hence the reason that theoretical discussions about what the "best" dps class is really aren't very helpful in terms of picking a character for a given raid. You've gotta look at the bigger picture and not consider any given class in isolation. And besides, just because one class can theoretically do more dps than another class doesn't mean that any given character of that class will do more dps than any other class :wink:

[rgirty]

It also does not mean that the server isn't going to need a restart, but you can't plan for every variable in the known world.

Everyone knows the person behind the keyboard is the one who makes the difference.

If you need dps, take a dps class. That should be fairly simple. Myself, I prefer a fire mage or warlock. Less aoe damage taken, and generally better with their aggro than a rogue/hunter.

[Octarus]

I dont see why you guys are mocking paladins...try an keep your DPS up while you hold the agro :wink:

I know this is about who can do the most DPS, but you guys are looking at a fixed target that wont attack.

Like Val was saying, it depends what each member can bring to the group....5 locks and their imps and voids and sucs...what good can you do? the same goes for every other class...now 5 paladins...what do you have? you have tankers you have DPS and you have healers :cool: only other class that comes close us is a group of Shamans and thats ONLY on this topic.

A paladin is independant, now a 10 man run which are all independent...you got yourself 10 healers, 10 DPS and 10 tankers...pretty much a 30 man run :wink:

[earindur]

they could top the damage meter in 5 and 10 man content.

well i took this one up last night. A loladin in my guild had been whinging about healing so i told him to respec and we'll see what his dps was like. I had a shadow priest who did utility healing so i told him to just do balls to the wall dps. We did this recently when our MT wanted to DPS again, gave him a good run and his dps/utility as an offtank showed up well. so we've kept him dps :P

he respec'd retri and we cleared from moroes to aran last night... his aoe broke shackles left and right and his dps was so appauling that we swapped him out at the currator fight and he respec'd. The only saving grace about him was that he recovered a skeletal usher after an iceblock, saving us from the typical usher wipe.(those mobs are just retarded)

He had good gear, but couldnt possibly keep up with the warlock/rogue/dps warrior/mage. We had blessings coming from our holy paladin, we never go anywhere without him as his survivability, blessings and divine intervention are such a huge plus. If we lacked a holy paladin, only then would i consider bringing the dps paladin.

sooo long story short, if i want a 3rd tank, ill bring a dps warrior. If i want an offspec healer ill bring a shadow priest/shammy. They offer more to the raid.

these are just my guilds findings, disregard them completely if you run things a different way.

/equip flame retardant knickers.

[Telmar]

If you need dps, take a dps class. That should be fairly simple. Myself, I prefer a fire mage or warlock. Less aoe damage taken, and generally better with their aggro than a rogue/hunter.

>_<

With regards to a 'dps' paladin. Why bother with one? What do they bring to a raid that a pure dpser doesnt? In a DPS slot, they are a wasted raid spot, as they simply cannot do enough DPS to be viable in endgame. In a offspec healer spot I can see them being worth taking, but as a DPSer. NO CHANCE.

[moopy]

Because hunters are famously an aggro problem- what they need is an ability which totally wipes aggro instantly, maybe with a cooldown of, lessee, 30 seconds? Uh, wait..

I thought the concept of DPS paladin was funny, seems I hadn't seen anything yet.

[rgirty]

I'm glad someone put a dps paladin to the test.

[Schift]

well i took this one up last night. A loladin in my guild had been whinging about healing so i told him to respec and we'll see what his dps was like. I had a shadow priest who did utility healing so i told him to just do balls to the wall dps. We did this recently when our MT wanted to DPS again, gave him a good run and his dps/utility as an offtank showed up well. so we've kept him dps :P

he respec'd retri and we cleared from moroes to aran last night... his aoe broke shackles left and right and his dps was so appauling that we swapped him out at the currator fight and he respec'd. The only saving grace about him was that he recovered a skeletal usher after an iceblock, saving us from the typical usher wipe.(those mobs are just retarded)

He had good gear, but couldnt possibly keep up with the warlock/rogue/dps warrior/mage. We had blessings coming from our holy paladin, we never go anywhere without him as his survivability, blessings and divine intervention are such a huge plus. If we lacked a holy paladin, only then would i consider bringing the dps paladin.

sooo long story short, if i want a 3rd tank, ill bring a dps warrior. If i want an offspec healer ill bring a shadow priest/shammy. They offer more to the raid.

these are just my guilds findings, disregard them completely if you run things a different way.

/equip flame retardant knickers.

Honestly this doesn't seem like the best test to me. I'm not arguing that the ret pally would be able to beat any other 'dps' spec'd class at overall damage on a single target anyways, but this test isn't as complete as I'd like to see. I do appreciate that you did give him a chance though.

It seems like you took a paladin who was used to being a healer, let him respec, and then watch him fail telling yourself, "yep, I knew it."

I have no idea what his experience or gear (I saw that you said he had "good" gear, but not many people understand what really good ret pally gear is, including me) as a ret paladin is, but if he's breaking CC's and causing general havoc, it would appear he really doesn't quite have the best grip on the spec within a group yet. That means that his "so appauling" dps, according to you, is probably a lot lower than a well geared, well skilled ret paladin would offer your raid.

In a perfect WoW world, you could pick all skilled players of any class at any time to fill your raid with exactly what you wanted. So yeah, in the real WoW universe, you pick from what options you have and sure, if you are filling a dps ONLY slot, don't take a ret pally (obviously). If you see a need for a hybrid that fills the roles a ret pally can, then cool. I just don't see the conducted test as being very helpful to fairly judging a ret. paladin's capability and usefulness to a raid. I could be very well wrong in some of the assumptions I made, and if so, sorry, but that was the impression I got.

[Herald of Doom]

Look. Everyone knows that for a paladin to do decent dps he needs to be:

a) extremely well equipped
b) a very good player

Take the same level of equipment and skill and there is no way on earth a paladin could keep up with a real dps class. A paladin in a tanking/healing spot offers the same utility and is actually GOOD for the raidposition he's selected.

HoD

[Valshenna]

Like Val was saying, it depends what each member can bring to the group....5 locks and their imps and voids and sucs...what good can you do? the same goes for every other class...now 5 paladins...what do you have? you have tankers you have DPS and you have healers :cool: only other class that comes close us is a group of Shamans and thats ONLY on this topic.
:wink:

*cough* Druids perhaps? :wink:

[Maelfurion]

ok, how does a feral druid geared for DPS fit in the DPS Chart? I was wondering about it.

[Valshenna]

I usually MT Karazhan, but the times that I've gone straight up DPS I've always been right up there with the Mages, Rogues, and Warlocks, give or take a few percentage points. Same thing with the Moonkin we run with. YMMV

[Herald of Doom]

I usually MT Karazhan, but the times that I've gone straight up DPS I've always been right up there with the Mages, Rogues, and Warlocks, give or take a few percentage points. Same thing with the Moonkin we run with. YMMV
1%? 5%? Thats a biig difference if you look at the actualy numbers :)

HoD

[Telmar]

ok, how does a feral druid geared for DPS fit in the DPS Chart? I was wondering about it.

A million times better than a 'dps' paladin.

[Octarus]

A million times better than a 'dps' paladin.

kara is full of undead....which just so happens that paladins have strong spell damage against, so when your in tears over how a paladin out DPS'd you in kara...:rolleyes:

[Schift]

Look. Everyone knows that for a paladin to do decent dps he needs to be:

a) extremely well equipped
b) a very good player

Take the same level of equipment and skill and there is no way on earth a paladin could keep up with a real dps class. A paladin in a tanking/healing spot offers the same utility and is actually GOOD for the raidposition he's selected.

HoD

a.) When I said that a paladin has to be geared well I don't just mean with really high level epics. More than most classes, ret paladins fail at nearing correct itemization. Stats for a ret paladin are far more complex than for me as a feral druid or for a mage, or rogue, or... you get the point.

b.) I agree.

I agree with the first part of what you say: An equally geared and skilled paladin will not surpass the damage of any other DPS spec'd character with equal gear and skill (under normal circumstance anyways). I don't agree so much with the second part. A Holy/Prot paladin is a Main healer, Off tank, and Off healer. A Ret paladin is an OFF Dps, Off tank, and Off Healer. Also, unlike two druids with their buffs, two paladins stack much better. You get extra auras and buffs, etc - so not the same utility there.

Also, a Holy/Prot paladin is a GOOD choice for his selected raid position, and so is a Ret Paladin. It all depends on what slot you are fitting them for. If it's a PURE dps spot, then a ret. paladin is not the best choice. There are more raid slots than just tank, healer, dps. Sometimes having an "off" class can be a good thing. "Better" is almost always relative.

[Telmar]

kara is full of undead....which just so happens that paladins have strong spell damage against, so when your in tears over how a paladin out DPS'd you in kara...:rolleyes:

Im glad you say fit to enlighten me, I would have never guessed what might be inside Kara otherwise :rolleyes:

Seriously, why bring up undead inside KAra as a justification for retar-dins? I've done patchwerk at 70 with a retridin in full 70 retri gear dpsing alongside me. He did around 1/3 of the damage of any other DPS class.

Our guild was working on Voidreaver last night (Damn you 1% wipe) and the two rogues were top, followed by the mages, then the warlocks (no shadowpriest, and both were destro, so mana issues), then the hunters, then the feral druid and enhancement shaman. You notice whats not on there? A 'DPS' paladin. Thats because even the enhancement shammy, and feral druid (as decent DPS offspecs) are putting out around 1/3 to 1/2 the damage of the Rogues, a good DPS paladin (ignoring the added utility they bring) wont manage more than that. The only reason the enhancement shaman was there was for WF (we were short on resto shamans that were attuned), and the feral was tanking.

If we need the edded utility of a Paladin, we'll bring another Holy one. Like you said, the benefit of more druids doesnt stack like pallys do, so why bring more than you need?

All that being said, Im looking forward vastly to the new patch. Hopefully with the glancing changes, I'll be even further ahead of the pack.

[construct]

Because the ongoing perpetual raging debates on the official forums of X versus Y class at Z role aren't rampant enough?

/pass

Don't start with that crap. This is a valid arguement.

[Valshenna]

Don't start with that crap. This is a valid arguement.

While the may be true, my comment was a reflection of my opinion that the amount of space spent endlessly debating this topic with no resolution on the official forums, along with the fact that most of the arguments are based on false perceptions of proper raid balancing and role slotting, and confused mis-interpretations of stuff like damage meters--well, do we really need these threads here?

But, as the current four pages in this thread indicate, the debate rages on. Carry on then brave dpsers, carry on!

[Octarus]

Im glad you say fit to enlighten me, I would have never guessed what might be inside Kara otherwise :rolleyes:

Seriously, why bring up undead inside KAra as a justification for retar-dins? I've done patchwerk at 70 with a retridin in full 70 retri gear dpsing alongside me. He did around 1/3 of the damage of any other DPS class.

Our guild was working on Voidreaver last night (Damn you 1% wipe) and the two rogues were top, followed by the mages, then the warlocks (no shadowpriest, and both were destro, so mana issues), then the hunters, then the feral druid and enhancement shaman. You notice whats not on there? A 'DPS' paladin. Thats because even the enhancement shammy, and feral druid (as decent DPS offspecs) are putting out around 1/3 to 1/2 the damage of the Rogues, a good DPS paladin (ignoring the added utility they bring) wont manage more than that. The only reason the enhancement shaman was there was for WF (we were short on resto shamans that were attuned), and the feral was tanking.

If we need the edded utility of a Paladin, we'll bring another Holy one. Like you said, the benefit of more druids doesnt stack like pallys do, so why bring more than you need?

All that being said, Im looking forward vastly to the new patch. Hopefully with the glancing changes, I'll be even further ahead of the pack.

ill get a movie going of a retadin in action soon and you will see :wink:

everyone puts it into a paladins head that he cant dps so he never goes all out "be back up healer", so of course the paladin saves mana and just does white damage

[Telmar]

ill get a movie going of a retadin in action soon and you will see :wink:

everyone puts it into a paladins head that he cant dps so he never goes all out "be back up healer", so of course the paladin saves mana and just does white damage

Ok, and i'll get a video of me in action on a boss, we'll see who wins. Infact, we could just get a screenshot of the damage meters from one, save time. You can pick the boss. Anything but morogrim please :)

[Schift]

Telmar, I gather from your posts that you are a rogue in a raiding guild that is up to several of the bosses in TK atm.

Since the topic of this debate is who are the highest DPS classes, what have you noticed in your raiding days?

There are of course many mobs and bosses that tip the scales all over the place, but on a general few minute tank and spank boss, with no special immunities, what is your opinion on the highest classes for overall dps in their best dps spec estimating for equal gear?

I see the three highest being rogue, mage, warlock.
Then something like hunter, warrior,
then feral druid, shadow priest, enh. shaman
and finally ret pally.

I'm sure that one might be higher than another in certain situations and party makeup, but with skill and gear the differences can be so small that I listed categories rather than exact order. Would you move these around at all according to your experience?

Edit: I don't really know why I posted this. My experiences have contradicted any kind of cookie cutter "this class has more dps than this one" because of gear, player skill, boss strategies, needed cc, etc... I don't really see the reason for this debate unless you are trying to optimize a raid's dps, but in this case, you would be able to use certain tools to see which players (not classes as a general) do the most dps in your raid and go from there.

[Microchip]

ret pallys are good for pvp b/c of repentance, otherwise prot for tank and holy for healer, easy

[rottentomato]

Due to the debate over in the paladin forum where I am being told that paladins can and are often #1 on the damage meter and people are running 10 man pally only kara groups what do you feel the top dps classes are? Listed below is the paladin dps thread.

http://forums.worldofwar.net/showthread.php?p=3949462&posted=1#post3949462

Are paladins #1 dps? Is it time for rogues/mages/locks/hunters to re-roll?

something tells me the person running the DPS meter isnt synced with anyone else, and the other classes like mages or hunters or warlocks are out of the range of whatever meter they are using

[Big Guns]

I think people who are consumed with what a damage meter says have bigger problems

[rottentomato]

def....if i really wanted to, as a hunter i can top damage meters everytime...ill probably die 4 or 5 times however, and maybe even cause a wipe... but if i time everything well manage my aggro, do my CC, watch my pet, pop a few heals on it, and concentrate on playing as a group, then i am usually #2 or #3 on the charts...same thing goes when i play my mage or my rogue...if i blast everything i have as fast as i can, then yea ill top the charts, and die a few times...but im still on top over any class....

i hardly believe a pally can top a mage/hunter/rogue/warlock/shadow priest/feral drood etc... id say a retadin can end up MAYBE on the bottom of the list if hes lucky, but they hardly are a huge damage dealer compared to the other DPS classes...

as a 60, when i was running around in hellfire, id hit for 300-400 white damage every 2.5 seconds, get 400-500pt arcane shots, 450-600pt multis...not including crits or pet damage...no pally ive ever seen can do that kind of damage constantly.... every 2.5 seconds im doing at least 800 damage without crits with another burst when multi is off cool down. pop a trinket and the next 15 seconds are insanity for me...pally main dps? HA i laugh at that.

[Qwertius]

DPS discussions are about raid DPS. In any 10 man or 25 raid especially at bosses in longer fights.

There are a few classes that can top dps meters in this game at this moment.

they are:

shadowpriest
warlock
mage

then a bit below come
hunter
rogue

edit: rogues and hunters seem to go up compared to the casters in the last month or so..

hybrid classes like
shamans
palidins
druids
don't come even close, no matter what spec they have.


Melee classes like rogues, DPS warriors , meleeDPS Shamans are gimped right now. that's not their fault, and in the past and in the future it is quite possible that they can be the #1 DPS again , but not now.

hunters used to be gimped a bit as well, but they have been buffed in the last patch or the one before and it's quite possible that they can compete with warlocks and mages / shadowpriest again.

Personally I still see warlocks be above all others.

[Telmar]

Telmar, I gather from your posts that you are a rogue in a raiding guild that is up to several of the bosses in TK atm.

Since the topic of this debate is who are the highest DPS classes, what have you noticed in your raiding days?

There are of course many mobs and bosses that tip the scales all over the place, but on a general few minute tank and spank boss, with no special immunities, what is your opinion on the highest classes for overall dps in their best dps spec estimating for equal gear?

I see the three highest being rogue, mage, warlock.
Then something like hunter, warrior,
then feral druid, shadow priest, enh. shaman
and finally ret pally.

I'm sure that one might be higher than another in certain situations and party makeup, but with skill and gear the differences can be so small that I listed categories rather than exact order. Would you move these around at all according to your experience?

Edit: I don't really know why I posted this. My experiences have contradicted any kind of cookie cutter "this class has more dps than this one" because of gear, player skill, boss strategies, needed cc, etc... I don't really see the reason for this debate unless you are trying to optimize a raid's dps, but in this case, you would be able to use certain tools to see which players (not classes as a general) do the most dps in your raid and go from there.

Yep, spot on. Im the raid leader and guild master for Coalescence (Kazzak - EU), and we're working on Leotheras in SSC and Solarian in TK at the moment. So i generally get a good overview of whats going on.

DPS is VERY fight dependant. For example a fight like Voidreaver heavily favors melee (with our strat anyhow), as its a straight up tank and spank. The only time we need to move out of the AOE is when our healer (shaman, pew pew laser heals) gets bolted twice in a row and we dont have CloS up.

On voidreaver last night, a sword rogue came top, beating me (as daggers) by about 0.2% damage dealt. He was flasked, and i was just using an agi pot though, so it'd be about even. Next up were affliction locks and shadow priests, then mages and hunters, then last were the dps warrior and enh shaman. This is with all groups having roughly equal buffs. (shadow priest and shaman for casters, shaman and warr for melee).

On morogrim however, a warlock topped the damage meters, doing almost 200k more than anyone elses damage, simply due to the AoE requirements.

On Karethress (probably the most evenly done) it tends to be Rogue, Rogue, Warlock, Mage, Mage, but those are also our most geared out DPSers, so its what you'd expect.

On mag, its entirely dependant on who does cubes. A rogue thats not on cube duty can win this by every time.

And on Gruul its always a fight between myself and Kazzas (one of our officers and an affliction lock). I can put out more Raw DPS, but i lose time on the mob as i get flung around whereas he stands on a rock and doesnt have to move. I think he won this weeks because all our melee got crushed when OT2 died (we killed him while he was still bugged).

Overall, on a purely tank and spank fight, it would probably be Rogues/Warlocks at the top, then Mages, then Hunters/Shadow priests/Feral druids, then DPS warriors/Enh shaman.

[Telmar]

Melee classes like rogues, DPS warriors , meleeDPS Shamans are gimped right now. that's not their fault, and in the past and in the future it is quite possible that they can be the #1 DPS again , but not now.

Your rogues seriously need to L2p if they're coming near hunters. They should be topping the damage meters every time. (and no, the other classes in my raids dont suck, as evidenced by us being able to kill mag in 8 minutes with rogues at the top, or gruul in around 10 growths, again with at least two rogues in the top 3.

Rogues REALLY arent gimped. You have to be non-retarded to play a rogue, and enjoy theorycrafting your gear/spec to get the most out of it, but you really REAAAALLY are not gimped in any way.

[Qwertius]

Your rogues seriously need to L2p if they're coming near hunters. They should be topping the damage meters every time. (and no, the other classes in my raids dont suck, as evidenced by us being able to kill mag in 8 minutes with rogues at the top, or gruul in around 10 growths, again with at least two rogues in the top 3.

roger that

In 10 man enviroment our rogue usually is 1-3

In 25 man we have been a bit low on rogues, especially gruul where ranged DPS has it easier than melee since we can cast longer and the rogues have to run back and forth more often.

I do see a trent that the rogues are catching up in the last week, now that they get better gear they are higher again.

[rottentomato]

lol rogues and hunters can easily be swapable if the hunter doesnt pay heed to anything else but DPS...they are just as much a DPS class as a rogue, and they can easily match with gear for gear swaps...even more so with the newest patch

[Telmar]

lol rogues and hunters can easily be swapable if the hunter doesnt pay heed to anything else but DPS...they are just as much a DPS class as a rogue, and they can easily match with gear for gear swaps...even more so with the newest patch

Hunters are very much like rogues. You need a love of theorycraft and the dedication to gear up PERFECTLY to get good. I've seen amazing hunters top meters, but its much easier to be mediocre as a hunter, than as say a warlock.

[Qwertius]

Rogues REALLY arent gimped. You have to be non-retarded to play a rogue, and enjoy theorycrafting your gear/spec to get the most out of it, but you really REAAAALLY are not gimped in any way.

I should have been more clear.

it's not the rogue or his skill that is gimped. it's the design of the encounters that makes it hard for melee.

so many fights where the melee has to run back every 30 seconds.. all that time the rogue does no damage (except poison or a little finishing move combo)

meanwhile the warlock not only has to run only 3-5 steps compared to the rogue 30 steps..also his dots just keep going

[Telmar]

I should have been more clear.

it's not the rogue or his skill that is gimped. it's the design of the encounters that makes it hard for melee.

so many fights where the melee has to run back every 30 seconds.. all that time the rogue does no damage (except poison or a little finishing move combo)

meanwhile the warlock not only has to run only 3-5 steps compared to the rogue 30 steps..also his dots just keep going

Erm, which?

In 25 mans
On Gruul rogues can just stay in the middle, no need for them to run to the edge, provided they have working eyes, they can easily avoid killing people.
On Mag rogues can stay on the boss the entire time.
On Hydross you should be on the boss the whole time.
On Karathress you dont have to run out.
On Morogrim, its literally tank and spank.
On Voidreaver you dont need to run either, provided you have a healer spamming chain heals onto tanks and bouncing to melee.
On Lurker you move 1 or 2 steps Max
Havent done Leo or Solarian enough to comment on those yet.

In Kz
On Attumen, you stay in, get a renew and you'll be fine.
On moroes, you dont have to run at all
On Maiden, you stay in the entire time, or you'll get hit by holy fire
On Curator, ok its tricky on flares, but no more than any other class
On Nightbane, you dont need to run out at all
On Ilhoof, you stand and stab
On Aran, you better not be running out more than anyone else.
On Netherspite, you're running around, but only the same as everyone else.
On Prince you only need to run out if you get enfeebled, otherwise just stand on the tank and get knockbacked into the wall. A bandage or renew will keep you up.
On Chess... well, lets just leave that there.

[arrowz]

im guessing that casters will have the upper hand with the lower levels of gear (before World Tree and BT etc), especially since the crafted gear seems to be very much based around pure dps (crafted sets are high +dmg and fairly low stats)...

thus, i expect locks, spriests and mages to be at the top atm.. however, when better gear comes out, i expect rogues and hunters to match them, and be about even, better in fights with less movement, where casters will still be stronger in fights with a lot of movements, esp dot classes, locks and to a lesser extent, spriests

[moopy]

lol rogues and hunters can easily be swapable if the hunter doesnt pay heed to anything else but DPS...they are just as much a DPS class as a rogue, and they can easily match with gear for gear swaps...even more so with the newest patch

Spoken like someone who doesn't really grasp hunters or rogues very well, or the vagaries of raid encounters. They need similar skillsets to do good dps, sure, but it starts to diverge really quickly on itemisation and use.

I'd like to see a hunter in just rogue gear with no int or mp5 sustain a nice shot rotation, or a rogue equipping mail - not sure what "they can easily match with gear for gear swaps" is supposed to mean.

In use.. There are some bosses which require rogue interrupts, some who can only be attacked by ranged (see also that pesky maulgar add). You don't generally use either class for just dps- they are needed for other abilities too- assuming the player can be trusted with something more critical than just pew pew. Actually, it'd take too long to iterate through how they differ- better that you just have a go at learning both classes :-)


On Chess... well, lets just leave that there.

Quite so, they die all the time there, just a waste of mana! /duck

[Qwertius]

im guessing that casters will have the upper hand with the lower levels of gear (before World Tree and BT etc), especially since the crafted gear seems to be very much based around pure dps (crafted sets are high +dmg and fairly low stats)...




Agree.

@ Telmar as I said rogues are catching up, so in your guild they propably are ahead already again as you seem to be in the 1% of guilds that is progressing further already. most guilds are still at the Kara-Gruul-Mag stages and there the difference between casters and rogues is noticable.

[Telmar]

Ah of course. Apologies in that case, I couldnt understand how your rogues werent doing huge damage, but if they arent geared up with 90 dps weapons, its fairly undestandable.

[Twoflower]

I think people who are consumed with what a damage meter says have bigger problems

what a silly silly post in a discussion about damage. how else would you measure damage ?

and if you dont even know why we discuss who does most damage, you certainly dont raid, so let the grownups talk please. kkthxbye

[Qwertius]

Ah of course. Apologies in that case, I couldnt understand how your rogues werent doing huge damage, but if they arent geared up with 90 dps weapons, its fairly undestandable.

yeah the problem with these discussions always is that a person post something, but never exactly finds the right words to say what he wants to say.. or he just makes a few short remarks.. then the next one reads it, and thinks, wait a minute , you are totally wrong.. etc etc... meanwhile if these persons spoke in real life they would discover within 30 seconds that they agree for 90% but were never able to express it.

[tonyg]

First of you need to realize that rouges are totally gear dependant. Much more so than any caster. So while a caster gets a new rank of spell, a Rogue needs to get a new weapon or new gear to improve his DPS. That is why at the beginning of every new tier or expansion a Rogue will lag behind quite a bit, and by the time the expansion has been out for some time the Rogue should catch up and even surpass any other class in DPS. Once a rogue goes from 70 dps blues to 110 dps epics his damage is going to go to insane levels. A caster will never see that much DPS increase from tiered gear progression that a rogue will.

[Telmar]

I'd agree.

In our first few Kara clears, I was finishing ~4th on the damage meters. Then on our first High King and Gruul I was about mid table.

Now our rogues are geared in full kara/gruul etc drops, its #1 on Gruul, #1 on Mag, #1 on VR for us :)

[rottentomato]

Spoken like someone who doesn't really grasp hunters or rogues very well, or the vagaries of raid encounters. They need similar skillsets to do good dps, sure, but it starts to diverge really quickly on itemisation and use.

I'd like to see a hunter in just rogue gear with no int or mp5 sustain a nice shot rotation, or a rogue equipping mail - not sure what "they can easily match with gear for gear swaps" is supposed to mean.

In use.. There are some bosses which require rogue interrupts, some who can only be attacked by ranged (see also that pesky maulgar add). You don't generally use either class for just dps- they are needed for other abilities too- assuming the player can be trusted with something more critical than just pew pew. Actually, it'd take too long to iterate through how they differ- better that you just have a go at learning both classes :-)



Quite so, they die all the time there, just a waste of mana! /duck

by swapping gear, i meant to say with similar gear (the ones ideal for that class) i know rogues cant wear mail...and i know hunters with no mp5 or int will suffer horribly....but either class can top the chart depending on skill of the player/gear/maybe even luck slightly...

[earindur]

by swapping gear, i meant to say with similar gear (the ones ideal for that class) i know rogues cant wear mail...and i know hunters with no mp5 or int will suffer horribly....but either class can top the chart depending on skill of the player/gear/maybe even luck slightly...

not a hope, the rogues will far surpass the better their gear gets.

[thmpr]

Paladins as DPS winners?
Huh?

Paladins are "priests in plate" - not much more nor less. Very useful,
of course --- but #1 dps? Not among experienced players.