lvl 39 twink rogue [Archive] - Unofficial World of Warcraft Forums

Tajmie

13-05-2007, 10:00 AM

I played my mage for ages now, lvl 70 doing some arena/bg work atm so i thought i'd pick up my rogue. But i don't have time to get him lvl 70 so i thought maybe i could make a twink of it, and since he is lvl 36 a lvl 39 twink suits pretty good.

Allthough i need tons of help with this project. I don't even know if lvl 39 twinks is any idea, i thought about the fact that the new enchants are lvl 35 req so it could be fun to try out a lvl 39 twink.

Anyhow, any rogue players who could help me out with this. I need tips for talentspeccs aswell as items and maybe some enchantment tips aswell.

Is it any point in twinking a rogue at 39? no idea if they are suited for it. Please help me! :)

Thanks alot!

Richakin

13-05-2007, 01:07 PM

rogues decimate 19 and 29. once u get to 39+ other classes get 'anti rogue' abilites.

they are still a good choice imo

my 48 rogue tends to get /laughed at by warlocks/shadowpriests/hunters/mages =( even if i burn cooldowns 1v1 they can still get me it seems.

semisonic9

13-05-2007, 09:15 PM

Rogues are great for BGs 19-29, ok at 39, really not that good 49-59 imo, then back in action at 70s with all the expansion goodies.

Just my $.02

~Semi

nosoup4crr

14-05-2007, 08:31 AM

At the level 39 range, rogues cannot match the damage output of a good hunter or warlock. However, they are probably the most imporatant class in the bracket--and I'm saying this as a level 39 Hunter twink. Rogues bother hunters/locks/mages...which are among the strongest classes in the bracket, damage-wise. Plus it's prior to when hunters/shamans/warriors get armor upgrades.

If you do want to lead the battleground, I suggest pairing up w/ another rogue. Many classes at level 39 can take out a single rogue...however, having 2, each of which can stun, makes it impossible.

That said...i personally think a subtlety rogue is much stronger in the bracket. Spec up to 21, then put the rest in imp. gouge, +% crit, or the avoidance of melee and spells talents.

grifterr

14-05-2007, 09:37 AM

Tajmie

16-05-2007, 10:31 PM

After reading all replies, i've decided to go for it! I realize a rogue aint the best class for lvl 39 twink but hey, i don't have time to lvl this rogue to 70 why would i then have time to lvl another char to 39? ;)

I can see you've given me some good tips but i still miss them' items! I'm lvl 37 atm, what and how should i get the items required to really have some kickass fun in bg? I do have my mage who could supply him with enchants/gold if that's necessary. I've never really twinked before so i need all help i can get, should i get most items from ah or from dungeons? And if dungeons, what and where? SM don't have that much leather/rogue loot afaik. And if AH, what ones?

I'm not totally stupid ofc i could just do all the work myself, but since there are people who already know i'd appreciate if they could share their knowledge and release me from some work!

Concerning speccs and playstyle, this char is basically grinded to lvl 37 using 2xswords + combatspecc. I don't really know anything about pvping with rogues, i guess backstabbing using daggers are what most does, right? As you can see, i could really use some help here aswell! I've played mage all my wowlife so I'm really not into all this melee stuff yet. But please help me get into it!

Grateful for any kind of help, thanks!

nosoup4crr

17-05-2007, 03:10 AM

Here's a rundown of some decent choices:

Head: Nightscape headband, Adventurer's Pith Helmet
Neck: WSG reward
Shoulder: The leather drop off of Glutton in RFD.
Chest: Nightscape Tunic, Warden Wrap(I think it's wrap), Wolffear harness
wrist: Some green of the monkeys will do
Hands: Shadowskin gloves, gloves of holy might
belt: AB reward
Legs: Basilisk Hide Pants
Feet: AB reward
Ring: Aquamarine Signet of the Monkey, Assault Band, Underworld Band
Trinket, Insignia, AB reward, WSG reward

Weap 1 (Combat Daggers): WSG reward
Weap 2 (Combat Daggers): Coldrage dagger
Weap 1 (Combat Swords): Vanquisher's Sword
Weap 2 (Combat Swords): Sword of Omen, Speedsteel Rapier
Weap 1 (Subtlety): WSG dagger reward
Weap 2 (Subtlety): Sword of Omen, Speedsteal Rapier, Coldrage Dagger
Ranged: WSG reward

Tajmie

17-05-2007, 11:40 AM

Thanks alot nosoup! That's an excellent pile of information you've got. Very grateful, although i have some questions about it.

Decent choices? Does that mean this ain't the best oor? Ofc, i want the best! But if that's not possible i'll settle with less.

What rogue would want underworld band? Can't understand that, +10sta and shadowdmg? It's a shadowpriest item is it not?

Thing is, i do already got some of the items you listed so it felt almost too easy to obtain! (Except the AB/WSG ones, it'll take ages...)..

So are you sure those are the best choices? :) i tried to do some searching myself but i'd love to get it confirmed.

I'm all lost in the weapons though, i don't even know what specc to do but i think i wanna try subtlety. If i go subtlety, i need an mainhand which is a dagger but it doesn't matter what i have in offhand or?

Which one should be faster? I know the offhand should be faster with a swordspecc but dono about daggers. And sorry for not telling but I'm alliance so i can't get that sword of omen but i can get sword of serenity / Black menace dagger.

Thanks alot for the information, keep it coming! Still need help when it comes to weapons, enchants, specc and playstyle!

nosoup4crr

18-05-2007, 03:24 AM

nearly all of those are the best hcoices. I didn't mean to put underworld band. There's a level 31 req. ring, whose name escapes me. It's something like that, though. It doesn't really matter. The two previous choices are better. Anyway...your spec has much to do with what weapons your'e goint o use. If you go subtlety, you want a slow main hand dagger. The best option at this level is the WSG dagger, I'm pretty sure. While there are slower ones, ones which have a higher max end, they sacrifice too much overall DPS. Your offhand may be either a sword or a dagger. The best overall weapons at these levels are swords, and not daggers.

Because you're going subtlety (and won't ahve the 5% increase to hit or 50% increase to offhand damage), the DPS that your OH offers is much less important than if you were combat spec'ed. Because of this, and because you can't get sword of omen, I would suggest the speedsteel rapier.

The only gear I would double check is the bracer. I believe there's some instance bracer drop that has a random "of the" enchant on it. It would take forever and a day to get the ones you want, though. It's your choice.

thedirty

18-05-2007, 05:11 AM

There is a 39 instance quest trinket, Mark of the Chosen (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=17774), that is worth getting if you have enough xp to spare at 39. Great on Druids and Pallies, but also pretty good on Warriors and Rogues. The quest does not become available until 39, and it is a 48 level quest, so you will need someone to run you thru to get it, but it's worth considering.

Also, another trinket that's not bad for rogues is the Figurine - Black Pearl Panther (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21758), which used to be really easy to get (buying from a vendor), but now, it requires jewelcrafting (since it's bop, but since it doesn't require jewelcrafting to wear, you could drop jc after you made it...)

Tajmie

28-05-2007, 09:26 PM

Sorry for not replying for a while, i've had problems with my puter but It's fixed and I'm back on! :)

As for nosoup: Thanks alot for the information, i got the 2 rings you firstly posted which were really nice, checked it up. I understand what you are saying about swords being better than daggers, but still.. In PVP daggers would be better wouldn't they? I'll post my current gear in a while but as for now, i almost got everything outside BGs which is basilisk pants, gloves of holy mights and the other easyobtained stuff etc. As for weapons i am currently using Vanquisher in MH and speedsteel in OH and I'm currently doing a combat specc. My question is wth should i enchant my weapons with? I'm totally confused, there's so many choices (I'm used to mages, +30/+40 spelldmg -always- ^^).

I have done some BGing and find it -very- fun! I'm thinking of doing this combat specc until i can afford the WSG dagger and then go subtlety specc to pawn them cloth wearers.

That's the other question, what offhand to use with the wsg dagger? coldrage dagger or speedsteel rapier? got both, oh and of course. What should i enchant those with? Seems like everybody suggests different things.

On my swords (and on my dagger/sword or dagger/dagger combo aswell), I'm thinking about either MH-Crusader/OH-15agi or MH-15agi/OH-15agi or MH-Lifesteal/OH-15agi or MH-Lifesteal/OH-Lifesteal.

You get my point, dono what to choose :) and concerning moongose enchant, is it really benificial at lvl 39? seeing as it's used for lvl above 60 because ordinary enchants get worse at targets above lvl 60? (i know its crap expensive ;)

Aye hope i didn't ask too much ^^ Thanks alot! =)

Tajmie

28-05-2007, 09:30 PM

Oh almost forgot,

Thedirty: I don't find the mark of chosen really benificial as there is the arena grandmaster trinket which is totally badass but hell to obtain, same goes with tidal charm which is also totally kickass but hell to get. But concerning the figurine, i find it very nice! Bloodyhell i gotta drop either of my profs (miner/engi) to obtain it though.

Oh, and do you or somebody else got some nice info concerning Engineering? Is there anything nice i could boost to get? I've scrolled through most of it and ofc i found some nice stuff but i dono, i like people who already knows stuff ^^

Maybe i could drop mining, buy stuff at ah to boost my engi (dono what lvl now, 140 something maybe) and then get jc to get that figurine? Just an idea :)

thedirty

28-05-2007, 10:32 PM

engineering items I enjoyed off the top of my head...

Grenades: Use these often, you can drop then while running, and they do damage and stun. Awesome for flag running, or for stopping a few people on you for a few seconds.

Goblin Sapper Charge: Does pretty good damage in the 39 bracket, best thing rogues can get as far as AOE damage. Kinda situational though.

The Big One: This is your standard bomb that you'll use when you stealth up to their flag room, and find 6+ people in there turtling. Chug a free action pot, drop this in the center of the room, grab flag and sprint off. They will never catch you!

Goblin Rocket Helmet: Ever wish you had the ability to sap 2 people at the same time? With this, you not only can do that, but the person you "sap" with this helmet, you also charge to. Great fun for taking on 3-5 people at once.

Gnomish Death Ray: Does damage to you while casting it, and then does alot of damage to the person you cast it on. When I was leveling my rogue, I would see ?? guys run in fear when they saw this pulled out and aimed at them, it is a fun little trinket.

There are also some pretty nice pets that you can summon with engineering, and if you max out your engineering, some of them will be ?? to the other side.

Gnomish Net-O-Matic: Want to stop that flag runner who is trying to get away? Aim this at them. Sometimes causes it to fire you at them and get you or both of you stuck, but as a rogue, it's not that bad, you have alot of tricks to get out of snares, and if it gets both of you stuck, they can't get away from you wailing on them.

Gnomish/Goblin Rocket boots: Want to sprint, but got a cooldown to wait on? Not any more. Also, there are some cloth boots that you can sprint with, as well as a trinket that you can use to sprint with (as well as speed pots). Great fun.

Gnomish Harm Prevention belt: Gives you another shield, kind of like the ab trinket. Sometimes causes you to be banished, which means you cant do anything, and noone can hurt you til it wears off.

Gnomish Mind Control Cap: Gives you the power to be an evil priest, and throw people from the lumber mill.

Decombobulator Ray: Turns your enemy into a leper gnome. Great for slowing down a flag runner enough to let your team catch up to him.

Recombobulator Ray: Unsheeps a friendly target, great for when one of your teammates gets sheeped (like priests, use this when they get sheeped and they will love ya for it). Also heals you for a little, kind of like another potion.

Green Lens of ____: One of the best headpieces for the 39 bracket, depending on which one you get (it gives a random enchantment). I reccomend getting an of stamina one, get a libram with that, and you are sitting with about 440 extra life, just from your headpiece.

Michony

28-05-2007, 10:45 PM

why get a libram on your legs when u cna get a clefthide patch

thedirty

28-05-2007, 11:05 PM

why get a libram on your legs when u cna get a clefthide patch

Noone should, but who mentioned a libram on legs? Not I.

Tajmie

29-05-2007, 09:40 AM

maxeyy

30-05-2007, 02:10 AM

ive got a level 61 rouge atm...... Ive twinked at every lv just without enchants and the best gear for a lv 39 that i found is:

Head : Nocturnl cap of the monkey
Neck : Scouts medallion (horde) or sentinels medallion (alliance)
Shoulders : Fleshhide shoulders
Chest : wardens wraps or huntsman's armor of the monkey... dosn't really matter which one you have they both have the same stats
Waist : Ogron's sash
Legs : Basilisk hide pants
Feet : Highlanders leather boots (alliance) or defilers leather boots (horde)
Wrist : unearthed bands of the monkey
Hands : Gloves of holy might
Finger : Aquamarine signet of the monkey and assult band....... If you can only get one of them then Legionnaire's band (horde) or Portectors band (alliance) is the next best ring
Trinket : Mark of the chosen and Figurine - golden hare
Back : Tigerstroke mantle
Ranged : Outrunners bow (alliance) or Outstriders bow (horde)

Hope you have fun collecting your items

thedirty

30-05-2007, 05:07 AM

Indeed, he mentioned libram on -head- not legs. Ofc you'll get clefthide on legs ^^

Thansk ALOT for the engistuff dirt, really usefull. I'll see what i can do, got kind of motivated now ^^

I noticed I'm lvl 174 engi atm, not that high, when do you choose goblin or gnome? 225? What should i go for? As I'm a twink, ill solely do PVP so..

How should i do to up this quickly? can't wait to fetch some trinkets to play with in bgs :) I need engi boost advice ;)

Me personally, I'd go gnomish, so I can wear all the headpieces, and because my main is a goblin engineer, so he can make all of the goblin bombs and stuff for my alts. If you can't do something like that, I suggest going gnomish and finding a goblin engineer that you can get to make bombs and whatnot for you.

There are guides on the internet for leveling professions, if you want to do it quickly, I suggest looking one of those up (won't link cuz too many sites with gold ads and I don't know which are which cuz adblocker).

nosoup4crr

30-05-2007, 07:42 AM

maxeyy

31-05-2007, 05:56 AM

as i said......... this is what i found to be the best for me...... if you dont want to wear what i had to can have some changes.

williamc

31-05-2007, 06:02 AM

I actually agree with most of the items that maxeyy suggested.

They are very good choice immho :)

Frostshokula

04-06-2007, 08:07 PM

Don't get upset just because he pointed out the obvious flaw in the gear you listed. Most everything you did list is right on the nose, but you should get scorpashi cape w/ 12 agility enchant on it.

+2 str, +5 agi, +7 stam, +12 agility

Tell me that isn't better than tigerstrike's 8 or so agility and 7 stamina. (off the top of my head)

As for the belt, it can go either way. Depending on the rest of your gear and enchants, 9/10 times the AB belt is going to be a better choice. I think it gives and extra 12 attack power, with only losing a tad bit of life. Only time you would want ogron's sash is if you hate playing AB, or need the extra crit% and/or dodge%.

Echosnare

12-09-2007, 03:44 AM

I'm currently search for a cape, I have tigerstrike but tis item level isnt high enough for 12 agi, which means I might try for scorpashi and see if I can get the enchant on that.

All I'm lacking at the moment really is trinkets and rings and then I'll be ready

Aerath

12-09-2007, 10:55 AM

Yup. There's a few nice cloaks, but the blue ones in that bracket are lvl 32-34 or thereabouts, which makes them inherently worse than a silly green cloak.

Ogron's is a good choice until you've got the AB belt.

xjLee

16-09-2007, 02:34 AM

Adventurer's Pith Helmet + Libram
Fleshhide Shoulders
Arachnid Gloves of the Monkey + 26 Attack Power
Ogron's Sash
Basilisk Hide Pants + NetherCleft / Clefthide Armor

I suggest you use Truesilver Commander's Ring

MH : Legionnaire's Sword + Mongoose
OH : Ginn-Su Sword + Mongoose / Crusader

Ofcourse... only if you can dish out the money for those enchants.
Some of those items are dropped from RFC, and those are probably some of the best performing weapons if you go sword spec. Ginn-Su has great speed and great stats.

Mongoose is worth it, +120 agility and attack speed can do wonders. And if you Crusader procs at the same time, I feel sorry for whoever you're killing.

xjLee

16-09-2007, 02:35 AM

nosoup4crr

16-09-2007, 11:55 PM

A few things I've learned after playing a while longer in the bracket. The exchange of ogron's sash for the AB belt isn't a bad move. You lose 12 AP, but you gain a few points of stamina, +1% chance to dodge, and +.5% chance to crit. I think ogron's is likely better for a combat spec, and AB is better for subt. spec.

There is a notable exception to whether you want the scorpashi cape or tigerstrike mantle. Some rogues prefer to use the subtlety enchant on their cloak for the added advantage over other rogues. This enchant can be put on tigerstrike, and would be preferable to scorpashi in that circumstance.

Lastly, the unearthed bands of the monkey can have the +9 stam enchant on them. But they cannot have "assault" put on them, as a green, level 35 bracer could.

Just a little more, if you'd like to consider it.

ryukishi

16-01-2008, 08:29 PM

Any reason why not to use Ardent Custodian? I imagine it would be useful MH for SS/Hemo barring combat swords.

Aerath

17-01-2008, 01:21 AM

Cos it's overly expensive, has no stats and since you can't be backstabbing you might as well use the epic sword that's around and works better.

nosoup4crr

18-01-2008, 06:44 AM

neither ardent custodian or dazzling longsword are good choices for rogues. Because of all the instant attacks that rogues use, you want your MH weapon to have the highest top end damage available. This comes in the form of the 2.7 attack speed WSG sword. It has a top end of 103 damage, whereas the custodian only has 90. 13 Damage is VERY substantial when it comes to overall damage for a hemo rogue in this bracket. Furthermore, the WSG sword has 8 strength and 3 stamina...which puts to shame the 170 armor and 7 defense rating of the ardent custodian.

Aerath

18-01-2008, 10:28 AM

Meant bloodrazor actually - but forgot that's for the 40-49 bracket.

nosoup4crr

18-01-2008, 02:28 PM

Here...maybe someone will enjoy this. I made it from the last 3 or 4 nights of PvPing. I'm experimenting little by little with making movies. I apologize for the quality. Until I get something better than Windows Movie Maker, I have to upload at a really low resolution.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4229267405600533227

Echosnare

18-01-2008, 10:04 PM

meh, i have kinda half assed twinks, Remnant on The venture co eu if you wanna check my character out. thinking of changing spec to hemo - although combat is a lot fun and I can generally own just about anything thrown at me in my Battlegroup. Kiting warlocks can be a ***** in wsg but other than that everything else is pretty much easy mode.

Gameliel

20-01-2008, 07:12 AM

Search for the following twinks on WoW armory:

Callandra (Uldaman server)
Drowprince (Anvilmar server)
Hotmustard (Anvilmar server)

Those are 3 of the best 39 twink rogues IMO, atleast in the Nightfall battlegroup. They are very well geared and specced.. ofc skill also plays into it, but there's a great guide for gear and enchants.

RioteR

20-01-2008, 07:46 PM

The last one is using a very fast sword for a mainhand wep. Is there a strategy behind that or is that probably not a good idea?

nosoup4crr

21-01-2008, 12:22 AM

The last one is using a very fast sword for a mainhand wep. Is there a strategy behind that or is that probably not a good idea?

I suspect that the last one is built specifically to beat other rogues. He's wearing a hat that gives him expertise, and using the longsword so that a rogue cannot vanish/CS. However, it's still an awful idea.

Gameliel

21-01-2008, 07:39 PM

@nosoup: I disagree with you.. because the protector's sword is so damned slow you're not doing as much damage due to reliance on special abilities (specifically hemo.) The Dazzling Longsword thus provides more DPS over a fight than the Protector's Sword would, even though it doesn't have high top end damage.

This very point was brought up on the Nightfall forums for discussion and Hotmustard responded by listing the theorycraft behind it, which was solid. I'll try to see if I can find it... ah, and here we go.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=3466360664&postId=35472866782&sid=1#11

Medisa is Hotmustard btw, just a namechange and server xfer.

---

Why would you use a weapon with a much lower damage range that has only a 2.2dps increase over Legionnaire's?
/curious

Well for one the attack speed... Using slow weapons sure does make big numbers i'll agree, but, and this applies to every class; Using slow weapons means you're reliant on Special Attacks to deal Damage, especially in between normal weapon swings. By using a 1.7 Speed weapon as opposed to 2.7, my Normal swings make for a larger part my overall damage and thus rely less on Special Attacks and in turn immediate Energy consumption. It also means less time waiting for that final swing to remove that pesky enemy of their last 4% health ;).

Here's a bit of math if you want to go that far:

Taking the max dmg of both weapons with swing speed and crit% and their maximum possible dmg over a 30sec period:

Dazzling Longsword - 2863.26
Legionnaire's Sword - 2641.86

Now add the damage from Hemo use (5 hemos in 30secs). Dazzling does 183, Legionnaire does 237 max hit and add the crit%.

Dazzling Longsword - 1128.28
Legionnaire's Sword - 1185.00

Total:

Dazzling Longsword - 3991.54
Legionnaire's Sword - 3826.28

A 1.04% DPS/30sec increase not including the -100 armor proc which increases the damage they take by 1.52% (3dmg). Sure we're talking small numbers but the fact is it does more dmg in 30secs than the Legionnaire's.

So that's why i use it, ontop of the fact the proc is insanely useful against Rogues.

---

(NOTE that this post was made BEFORE the 2.3.2 patch, which nerfed the bonus damage hemo does from 125% to 110%. So the disparity between the DPS of the swords is even higher now in favor of the Dazzling Longsword.)

nosoup4crr

22-01-2008, 02:12 AM

Okay...max damage statistics.

Dazzling longsword has top end of 70 at an AS of 1.7. This means that the Dazzling Longsword will swing 17.65 times in that time period, and will hit 13.41 times (76% chance to hit when dual wielding). We'll use 480 as an AP mark. Assuming a base crit of 17%, 2.28 of those swing will be crits--11.13 will be normal hits. (70 + 480/14 * 1.7)(11.13) + 2(70 +480/14 * 1.7)(2.28) = 2012.8 damage from normal swings in those 30 seconds.

For the Legionnaire's sword, you get a total of 11.1 swings in 30 seconds, 8.4 of which will land--1.43 will be critical hits, 6.97 are normal. (103 + 480/14 * 2.7)(6.97) + 2(103 + 480/14 * 2.7)(1.43) = 1922.46

DL = 2012.8
LS = 1922.46

Hemo Damage:

Energy regens at a rate of 20 every 2 seconds. In a 30 second fight, 300 energy is generated. Add to that the initial 100, and you get a grand total of 400 energy for a fight. Assuming that you cheap shot, kidney shot 3 times, and even blind once, you're still left with 290 energy at your disposal in that time--you're still using more than 8 hemo's. I'm not sure if they've actually announced that Hemo has been normalized, but we'll dot he math for both.

Normalized :

DL = 1.17(70 + 480/14 * 2.4)(1.10)(8) = 1567.93
LS = 1.17(103 + 480/14 * 2.4)(1.10)(8) = 1907.7

Non-normalized :

DL = 1.17(70 + 480/14 * 1.7)(1.10)(8) = 1320.83
LS = 1.17(103 + 480/14 * 2.7)(1.10)(8) = 2013.6

Total (Normalized Hemo's)

DL = 3580.7
LS = 3830.6

Total (Non-normalized Hemo's)

DL = 3333.63
LS = 3936.06

As you can see, the advantage is pretty apparent. The poster from that thread lists no math. I'm curious where he got his numbers from. But, i'm absolutely certain that it's wrong--specifically because he has 5 hemo's from a dazzling longsword doing more damage than 5 hemo's from a LS. I don't think he checked his work, haha.

Gameliel

22-01-2008, 04:32 AM

No, he doesn't say 5 Hemos from a DL does more than from a LS:

Now add the damage from Hemo use (5 hemos in 30secs). Dazzling does 183, Legionnaire does 237 max hit and add the crit%.

Dazzling Longsword - 1128.28
Legionnaire's Sword - 1185.00

I believe you'll find he addresses your calculation of 8 hemos and also the miss rate of the swords in a 2nd post on page 2 of that thread:

----

How would you only have 5 hemos in 30s? 30s = 300 energy regen = 8.5 hemos, round it down to 8, and the different in dps will not be so big. Would there be much difference if you assumed 8 hemos instead of 5? Plus, are you also accounting for the default 24% miss rate for dual wield? Relying on white damage isn't so hot if you're missing all the time.

I definitely agree that the proc is godly vs rogues, but I'm not sold on your new gearset/spec delivering more dps compared to your previous one.

Actually, starting with 100 energy, and energy ticks 20 per 2 seconds you regen 300 energy in 30 seconds... so assuming you wait for that last second before the next tick you can get 11 Hemos in 30secs, however considering the cost of cheap shot with talents (40) and kidney shot (25) in a normal opening 65 of that 300 is pre-spent on CC'ing your target ontop of gouge (45) is 190 spare energy for Hemo which results in 5... Unless you disregard using CS, KS and Gouge, but i dont ;). The more hemo's you use as opposed to auto-attacking, the smaller the damage cap between the two gets because Legionnaire's gives Hemo a larger base% of dmg to work with, but not much, and you can only Hemo so many times before energy runs out, and sadly you need that energy for tactics as well as damage, so i've maximized my damage through energyless attacks leaving a bit more freedom for energy use.

Dual Wielding is an innate 19% miss chance according to Wowwiki, and 1H/2H is 9%. I also have Surefooted (+10 hit rating, +1.68%) so my missrate is 17.32... applied to 18 swings of Dazzling is 3 misses and 16 swings of Legionnaire's is 2.7 misses (basically 3) so... /shrug.

----

Please note I'm not arguing for or against it, just restating what Medisa/Hotmustard said when this very issue was raised. That'd be great if you could disprove it actually, because I'm not quite sold myself. :)

HandofDread

22-01-2008, 05:18 AM

my 48 rogue tends to get /laughed at by warlocks/shadowpriests/hunters/mages =( even if i burn cooldowns 1v1 they can still get me it seems.

I never got /laughed with my rogue... but I'm undead so locks found my will of the forsaken to be annoying as they attempt to spam fear... plus I'm Subtlety specced... so Premeditation+Cheap Shot+Hemorrhage=5 Combo Points And from there it's a choice between Eviscerate or Kidney Shot...

nosoup4crr

22-01-2008, 07:32 AM

I must've read the wrong line to determine that he added the hemo's in favor of the DL. However, I believe his math is still off, as the advantage he gives to the LS is marginalized quite a bit. I believe the math I used is right, but correct me if I'm wrong.

His assessment that you should only get off 5 hemo's in 30 seconds is faulty, however. First off, he's only using a 300 energy benchmark. It should actually be a 400 energy benchmark, as a rogue starts with 100 energy, and regens 300 more during the course of 30 seconds. In my math, I allotted 110 energy to CS, 3x KS's, and a blind. Gouge is pretty situational--but even if you include a gouge in that math, a rogue is still able to get off 7 Hemo's. But, even using his 5 Hemo preset, the LS still outdamages the DL by 110 on the overall total--and that's for the normalized math. If it's not normalized (normalization hasn't been admitted by blizzard, although many believe it's happened to Hemo), the advantage is still ridiculous.

Lastly, dual wielding imposes an ADDITIONAL 19% penalty for dual-wielding, over the existing 5% miss rate for 1h/2h--which is where I got my 24% miss rate from. http://www.wowwiki.com/Dual_wield

Gameliel

22-01-2008, 05:07 PM

Looks like Medisa/Hotmustard dropped two numbers in the explanation, then -- the 100 energy to start with, and the 24% missrate.. 19% + 5% as you say. I might add that the boots do have the Surefooted enchant, which is +10 hit rating, or +1.68% chance to hit.. not sure what effect that would have on the calculations but even so the math would probably favor LS.

If you feel like it, I'd recommend posting your findings on the Nightfall battlegroup forum! It'd be very interesting to see how Medisa/Hotmustard would respond. He is known to be a proud player, so it would likely be amusing. Just address it to Medisa/Hotmustard and I guarantee he'll see it or someone will alert him to it. I'd post it myself but I'm not big on WoW theorycraft so I'd be unable to properly defend your position if he challenges it. :)

Very informative & useful, thanks for taking the time to debate it (or more like, correct his mistakes!)