Is it normal to die/wipe in an instance?

[Kugan]

From a protection paladin:

When I PuG, we wipe (or I die) at least once on trash mobs, and normally on the final boss (I’ve had exceptions, but they were all exceptionally good groups).

This seems pretty normal to me. A DPS warrior decides to attack a caster that’s close to another group, a rogue’s stealth is seen through, and we find ourselves surrounded by eight mobs, a hunter forgets that his pet is on aggressive, a mage can’t find his sheep button. Even I’ve caused wipes/deaths. A bad pull (you know the feeling… you pulled three, and suddenly six comes running towards you), pulling before the team were ready (hey… your mana bars were full, weren’t they?), getting stunned (as a tank) and the three mobs shoot in three different directions. There are times where we survive these encounters, but there are times when we don’t.

But the way some people react, it seems as if I’m the only person who this is normal to. I always pride myself on dying first (unless someone gets killed by AoE. Not much I can do about that), but last night a priest made me do a corpse run because I wouldn’t heal myself after he ran oom (ever tried healing yourself with 3 mobs beating on you?). He also asked us if this was the first instance we’ve ever done (that was a bit of a conversation killer. :smiley: ).

This in itself is not remarkable, but since I reached 70 (which wasn’t even that long ago), I’ve seen attitudes like this more and more (I actually think it got worse from 50). I'm beginning to get a bit scared to PuG. Not because I think that they are bad, but because I'm beginning to think that I'm really bad.

Since I never group without myself (I’ve tried… but it wasn’t that successful :laugh: ), I was wondering if it’s normal, or if I should l2tank.

[rottentomato]

lol....reading the title...i thought this was gonna be off topic...


but yea...wipes happen. especially in a PUG...when its with people i play with often, not so much, or when the group has everyone doing their job...then yea wipes dont really happen...but one person can change that in a matter of seconds.

[det]

Yes, it is normal.

Sometimes I have had really, really good PuGs..which then turned out that there was always at least 2-3 people loosely knowing each other and the PuGs really were more semi-PuGs.

REAL PuGs that end up in wipe fests...well, my feeling is that people who PuG are either not getting invited to guild parties...or to guilds (period!) because they are just incapable of following the basic common sense ideas about theitr class.

Because of that they have to PuG. Put 3 of those together, generally messing around and you have diseaster at your hand.

[Kugan]

Haha. Maybe I should change the title. I don't even want to know what you thought :laugh:

[det]

Actually a PuG (and that goes for every party) gets 50% better if somebody takes the initiative, marks targets, is generally vocal in /party and the other 4 listen to him.

It gets several 100% better if the one who takes the initiative knows what he does ^^

[moopy]

It depends on the group/instance. If it's a PUG, often people will die. Even in a non-PUG in heroics, there are usually some deaths. However, clears of standard 5-mans without deaths aren't uncommon- not are kills of raid bosses that people are familiar with (depending on the specific boss :).

[Sturm]

Hate PUGs - really I hate em. Cant stand the idea that ppl dont think before they act. I am not saying I dont make mistakes - but some ppl might aswell have "Sorry my mistake!" bound to a key.

The scenarios the OP writes here just shows how easy it is to get to 70 without ever knowing how to play your class. I am wondering if ppl would learn more if there were lesser quests around.

Atm you can level to 70 without ever entering a group - less an instance.

[LucidSpirit]

In my experience, PuGs are always a gamble.

I've found, particurlarly at high levels 55+, everybody thinks they're good players. This, and has been proven time and time again, is not always the case. Lack of ability to work as a team seems to be a very common weakness and as somebody has already said it requires good leadership and cooperation all round, and of course understanding one's role in the group.

The above is the sole reason I "work" with friends or guildies.

Finally, I am of the opinion that levels 1-70 are merely initiation, the real training starts much, much later, especially were group work is concerned...and yes wipes are common, minimising them is where the real skill comes in.

-LS

[det]

...and a problem that some classes have in addition:

You level on a dps specc...then if your party members are lucky, you played your class in raids at lv 60 in a raid specc. If they are unlucky, you play with people who have JUST respecced to pure tanking or healing...

Have been in Instances with 2 shamans pretending they are unable to even cast a healing spell because they were elemental specced....

[kcma]

it maybe normal for you det... maybe for you... :p

[det]

It is...as you will find out as this thread goes on...normal for 99% of the population who goes to any Instance beyond ...say...Wailing Caverns.

I have done Instances with alts from RFC to SM and even with us 5 all knowing each other (and having lv 60 mains that raid) we did wipe once in SM. Okay..that is still pretty good - but if you go to an Instance, you are prepared to wipe.

So, yes..it is normal - period.

[kcma]

so... i suppose i'm not normal?? :p okay okay i might've wiped here and there but i can't help it... happycow IMed me...

[Wintrow]

...my feeling is that people who PuG are either not getting invited to guild parties...or to guilds (period!) because they are just incapable of following the basic common sense ideas about theitr class...

I'd like to add as an exception: People who like their guild, but the guild hardly ever does instances, or they play at VERY irregular hours during which there not a lot of ppl on.

It's also really hard to find a guild w
a) lots of ppl online
b) in all level ranges (because I level slowly, so the L40's of last week become the L50 groupmates of today)
c) who often do instances

BTW: L51 NE Druid Looking for above guild on Aggramar EU for him and his 7 alts.

[earindur]

REAL PuGs that end up in wipe fests...well, my feeling is that people who PuG are either not getting invited to guild parties...or to guilds (period!)

thats very unfair to say, even the best guilds have to PuG it from time to time.

[rottentomato]

lets see...im a 62, and the only instances ive run are VC, SFK, WC, RFC, SM, ULDA, ZF, HELLFIRE instances....other than that, i choose to not really run them because i hate PUGs

[Gilbster]

There are also those guilds which have a few people many levels ahead of the others, and thus those people have to PUG. It is also possible that people who claim to have done lots of instances and still cant follow basic instruction could be people who have been boosted through instances a lot, and thus really have no idea how to play in a group.

[maladroit2000]

A successful pug requries two things:

1) A good tank who knows basic things like line of sight pulls, not to allow mobs to hit his back, how to look after the casters etc

2) Someone who knows the instance well and is willing to take the lead

This means that if you are a decent and experienced tank then you probably can't understand what all the pug fuss is about. For everyone else: :cry:

[Dark Matter]

It's not just pickups when you can wipe.

I've been running Steamvaults recently with my guild - the same 3 core Druid Tank, Warlock and me on my Hunter. The other 2 have (until the last run) been various other long time guild players - either pally or priest to heal and either a mage or another hunter for CC. In 7 runs we only wiped once when both hunter traps were resisted and we all panicked slightly.

However, on the last run we had a different group. " new trial members came - a Pally to tank and a new priest. We also had my hunter, our GM Warlock and another hunter (officer).

We wiped 3 times before we made it up the ramp to the first boss. :rolleyes:

This was only because we weren't used to running as a group and the pally kept running to the priest to pull mobs off her - not trusting either hunter to be able trap the mob. This invariably meant the wrong mobs (less than 40% HP left) following him and being trapped, rather than the one beating on the priest (with 100% HP). Ergo the preist would go OOM, all traps on cooldown and 4 angry mobs.

We got it sorted - the priest learned to run towards the hunters, the pally learned to keep tanking and not to panic and we breezed through after that.

Still not got my Beast Lord pants though :(

[Kitano]

Like everyone said, wipes are just part of the game. Even the best laid plans can go awry and what seems like a perfect group with friends can become a nightmare of wipes because someone isn't focused. PUGs are worse although I've had both good and bad. I was in a PUG where we finished SH in 40 minutes with no deaths and I've run the same instance with a similar group and spent that long just getting to the first boss only to not even finish the instance. It all depends on the skill level of the players as well as the focus.

[Sturm]

Det is touching a sensitive area there. The whole "I cant heal cuz Im feral, shadow, elemental etc"
Those are generally players that will never get far (imo) since they dont use the range their character provides. I have tried priest and yes, healing is hard when u are shadow specced bcuz u waste mana fast. But dont say its impossible. Thats just plain selfish.

[Eratia]

Pugging is fine. You can meet some great people, and also you learn who to avoid on your server as well.

My golden rule with pugging has become to avoid hunters, though. Which is a total shame as I think well-played hunter brings so much to any group. But they seem to have so many ways to wipe a group. The most common is screwing up a pull by sending a pet in when the tank is trying to pull the mobs to him/her, then screaming about the pet needing to be healed, which just puts so much strain on the healer. It always seems to be something. Pet set on aggressive, didn't focusfire, etc etc etc.

Having a warlock is awesome for a PuG, provided they soulstone a res-capable member of the group rather than themselves.

[moopy]

My golden rule with pugging has become to avoid hunters, though.

Well, grats to you then, Einstein :) The next time you reject that karazhan-geared hunter that only needs rep, bear in mind that they might be an alt of that well-geared tank or healer that you're whispering to join at some point in the future.

Can't work out if you're a troll, or just not the sharpest implement in the toolkit.

[Sturm]

Gotta love it when a lock SS himself... That should be nuff reason to find another player :P
Being a hunter I agree with u. When we do our best we deliever CC and damage. When we slack we deliever death and repair cost.

[det]

thats very unfair to say, even the best guilds have to PuG it from time to time.

Hrmmmkay...I knew at one point I'd get a comment like that, hehe.

Being in a guild with 220 members on 120 unique accounts with an attached raidchannel of our raidgroup, I guess I am somewhat in a very comfortable position. :cloud9:

[earindur]

Hrmmmkay...I knew at one point I'd get a comment like that, hehe.

Being in a guild with 220 members on 120 unique accounts with an attached raidchannel of our raidgroup, I guess I am somewhat in a very comfortable position. :cloud9:

:stuckup:

1234567

[Eratia]

Can't work out if you're a troll, or just not the sharpest implement in the toolkit.

Check the aggression, it's not cool.

And listen to the context: at my current level (28, pally) I'm avoiding hunters in PuGs. I've had wipes from most hunters I've teamed with. I've not made it to Outlands with any of my characters yet, but I am hoping I will with this one. Wasn't under the impression that one had to be lvl 70 to comment here.

I've played a hunter to lvl 44. Loved the class to bits, especially when I was running through SM. However, for whatever reason, it's not a well-played class. Likely because, as I was trying to say in my previous post, it's got a whole lot of utility that if used poorly can really damage a group. So I don't PuG with a hunter I don't know, unless in the few whispers I have with them I get the sense that they know how to play the class (and yes, you can do this by asking a few leading questions about spec and such).

[Kugan]

Hmmmm. So it seems as if the general consensus is that wipes do happen, but it’s generally because of the tank, hunter or healing classes that won’t heal. Since this always describes me (have a protection paladin, and I refuse to heal while I’m tanking, and a low level hunter), I guess this means it’s always my fault :). (although I’m not taking blame for the one time the healer kindof forgot to heal me. Everyone said they were ready. :)).

I must admit (I forgot to mention it), that as someone else said, we even wipe on some guild/friend runs. But that’s usually followed by a civil discussion about what went wrong, and a ROFL to whoever’s fault it was. Not insults and the blame-game.


Check the aggression, it's not cool.
I've played a hunter to lvl 44. Loved the class to bits, especially when I was running through SM. However, for whatever reason, it's not a well-played class.

I'm finding more well played hunters than rogues (for example) at 70. Maybe I've just been lucky (or unlucky, depending on how you want to look at it :laugh: ).

[moopy]

Well, I'm sorry it's not "cool", "dude". So sorry to have ruffled the feathers of the ultimate arbiter of "cool". With your massive experience of the class, clearly there is no choice but to bow before your peerless insight :)

I'm glad that most people aren't such muppets, and the class is in higher demand than ever, since people need good reliable CC for heroics, when I am not raiding.

[Eratia]

Well, I'm sorry it's not "cool", "dude". So sorry to have ruffled the feathers of the ultimate arbiter of "cool" :)

I didn't used the word 'dude'. Just treat people with respect before you jump down their throats and insult them. Is that so much to ask?

With your massive experience of the class, clearly there is no choice but to bow before your peerless insight :)

I never said I had massive experience. Just saying how things are at my level, from my perspective. Sorry to offend, your l33tness.

I'm glad that most people aren't such muppets

:laughing: Whatever.

[det]

....and I refuse to heal while I’m tanking, and a low level hunter), I guess this means it’s always my fault :). ..

Way to take stuff out of context ^^.

The shamans situation was this:

SV, going for keyfragment for Kara. Tank, 2 warlocks, 2 shamans. All we wanted was one of the shamans to heal the warrior.

Ofc I don't want a tanking Paladin to heal as well :rolleyes:

[Dhoum]

One of the issues facing me as a Rogue is "survivor guilt", as a dagger/subtlety rogue I spend pretty much my entire fight behind mobs ... not getting hit. If a situation goes wrong, it tends to do so very quickly and everybody is dead in seconds. Because I solo a lot I tend to Vanish when a situation looks beyond recovery. Now if I had a gold for every time someone's said "How are you still alive and on full health? OMG what were you doing?" I'd be a very rich undead. Usually I refer them to the combat log if they were in any doubt of what I was doing but sometimes I think it might be worth eating the death just so I can avoid the grief.

[moopy]

Ofc I don't want a tanking Paladin to heal as well :rolleyes:

As I found out last night when the warrior DCed mid-pull, healtanking holds aggro amazingly well :) You get into a vicious circle- you're second on the aggro list due to heal threat, tank goes- *bam* you have a fan club. You're taking loads of damage, so you start cranking out the big heals on yourself, thus generating even more threat- even the overnuking rogue wasn't getting hit.

It took me a few seconds to engage brain in gear sufficiently to drop the Greater Earth Elemental, which taunted them all off me and held them- much easier to keep alive. Doh!

Ok, a bit of a tangent, I admit, but it was spectacular to see.

[Kugan]

Way to take stuff out of context ^^.


Because it's fun :grin: .


The shamans situation was this:

SV, going for keyfragment for Kara. Tank, 2 warlocks, 2 shamans. All we wanted was one of the shamans to heal the warrior.

Ofc I don't want a tanking Paladin to heal as well :rolleyes:

I can kindof see their point... OK I'm lying, I can't. There is really no reason why one of them should not want to heal the warrior (it's either that, or one of them gets kicked to be replaced by a healer.)

The reason I was taking it out of context, was because the priest (mentioned in the starting post), refused to resurrect me because I didn't heal myself after he ran oom. Was not aimed at you at all :laugh: (OK, it was kindof...)

This means that if you are a decent and experienced tank then you probably can't understand what all the pug fuss is about. For everyone else: :cry:

But I don't see the point in beginning to insult people after one wipe (it normally isn't even a wipe. It's just me dying.. and then it's the priest that complains instead of me. And I might not have the perfect gear, but I don't die quickly either).

[loubesian]

Don't know if this is the right thread to say this - but its typical of many about PUGs on this forum

I can only go by the people I know that play WoW -but. The majority are casual players (some even have a life).
They don't have the time to do instances except on infrequent occasions and are generally just happy doing quests (or soloing instances when they get to higher levels).
I only instance when I know I'll have the time to do it - I just don't like letting other people down by leaving early.

Most of us just join a guild because we're sick of getting lots of guild invitations and we know we can't take a full part because of time constraints. I've got three kids who want my time at the weekend and my wife thinks that playing games is for kids not a grown man - so I get lots of hassle at night if I stay up too late.
I can't plan ahead to do an instance so if i find I've got the time I'll join a PUG. I read these forums when I can and try and make use of all the advice. Trouble is playing your role in a group correctly needs lots of practice which I can't get. So when I play (and yes I've caused some wipes) I get lots of "Noob" comments - very little help - even when I've explained my lack of experience.

There are lots of people like me out there - we want to play the game the best we can but haven't got the time - so, sorry to the people we wiped. But we pay our money over like everyone else.

[Kugan]

There are lots of people like me out there - we want to play the game the best we can but haven't got the time - so, sorry to the people we wiped. But we pay our money over like everyone else.

Haha. Glad to hear someone agree (my original post was also a rant about people complaining about people complaining about a wipe.)

I really don't mind a wipe. If you tell me you don't have a lot of experience, I'll point out things you can do better (if I know about them), and laugh at you if you do cause one (sorry about the laughing, I just can't help it).

The only time I've ever left a pug was because somebody kept on calling somebody like you (who admitted that he had less experience) a noob. I eventually left with the "so called noob", formed a different party, and had a ball :laugh:

[Wintrow]

If I am not getting responses when I ask/announce something in partychat I usually prepare for an imminent wipe.

Not only are these ppl never going to communicate properly, but they'll probably blame it on 'the noobs' and quit.

Yesterday I spent 6 hours getting together a decent group for ZF and only made it past Thekal The Martyr.
- A-Hole Warlock group leader kicks rogue and invites warrior in 2 seconds w/o saying a word. He thinks we won't notice? I suddenly get profane whispers from the rogue. I call the 'lock on it and he asks me if I wanna get kicked too...
- Noob Druid (who has a L62 Warrior) is L43 but is wearing NO bracers, shoes of a L25, ... Apparently he sold all his gear to get an epic mount for his main. AND he's Balance specced. He claims "he can heal just fine" but goes OOM in 2 heals flat. Has no concept of proximity aggro and just walks right in the middle of the path while we do our best to hug the wall. Lots of deaths later he says he probably shouldn't heal. DING!
- Warrior keeps wanting to do trick jumps in ZF. Luckely he turned out to be "cool" and a good tank.
- An earlier warrior has NO shield (not even a L1 gray thing he can shield bash with), only Dual Wields and excpects to be the tank. He dies 5 seconds into the pull.

Luckely I was on my wife's hunter (pet on passive, only shoot mobs that are damaged or heading for the noob druid) and focus fired the crap out of one mob at a time.
I eventually tasked my pet with keeping the aggro-pulling moonkin safe.

I especially loved the part where the warlock pulled too many mobs while trying to do a trick jump. We almost killed 'em but then the lock died. As the survivers come barreling for me I FD and dropped aggro.
Then: stand up again, recall pet, take out L45(Elite) basilisk, hide a bit, see the other druid (who usually knew what he was doing) coming right for me in Travel Form instead of stealth with 3 trolls behind him. Another FD, druid dies, pet dies, me slaps Druid II.

[moopy]

If I am not getting responses when I ask/announce something in partychat I usually prepare for an imminent wipe.

The silent players are scary indeed. It's not about play time, experience or anything else, it's about being able to read and respond to text. Some people just don't do it at all, others just ignore /p in combat. I am guessing these folks can't walk and chew gum, either.

When I am playing healer, the thing I need to get people to react to is the fact that I have aggro, or maybe that they're out of range/LoS. If they ignore repeated intructions to not run out of LoS of the rest of the group, I let them die. If it's me dying all the time due to no-one taking the aggro off me every darn pull.. well, I don't tolerate too many of those pulls before leaving. It's easier on my hunter; if people don't respond in a timely fashion to a clear and present danger, I can always hit FD and ride out the wipe.

[Kitano]

So when I play (and yes I've caused some wipes) I get lots of "Noob" comments - very little help - even when I've explained my lack of experience.

There are lots of people like me out there - we want to play the game the best we can but haven't got the time - so, sorry to the people we wiped. But we pay our money over like everyone else.

I generally take it upon myself to try to help someone who is a little clueless unless they aren't even trying. I've mentored many Hunters and I do what Ican to help other classes though I can't really tell them how to play their class considering I've only played any other class up to 48 (48 Warrior, 34 Priest, 26 Shaman, 33 Rogue). If someone is genuinely trying and wants to learn then I'm more than happy to offer my help. If they're not trying or paying attention and causing problems I'll ask them to focus or pay attention and, if they continue to ignore and play how they want, I'll boot them from the group if I'm leader or leave the group if the leader won't boot them. I can always find another PUG that cares.

[Twoflower]

well, two things...

1st : Yes, wipes are normal, they happen. They happen less when you get to know your tammates, your class, the instance etc. In short the more experience you have. But they can happen anytime, anywhere, in any group.

2nd : After a certain amount of experience, it gets realy realy hard to do such stupid things to actualy wipe.

I don't PuG any more. I have way too many people on my Friends list and i know most people from our 3 or 4 best raiding guilds on my server, so if i need a group, i have like 300 people i know that are capable of group play, geared in karazhan or better equip and knowing what it means to go into a instance. So i would hardly call these groups "PuG".

Still, whit my alt, i sometimes enjoy PuG'ing and gamble a little to see what group i get. And most of the time, i get a pleasant surprise. People are normaly willing to cooperate, even like the feeling of a bit of structure in a instance. I think most people are tired of PuG wiping aswell :)

I normaly do raid lead in our guild raids ( up to magtheridon at least ) so i know how to lead a 5 man group trough rampards :) and even though we have some ugly situations sometimes, we normaly make it trough the instance.

What i wanna say is that experience > all.

[swaldman]

Well, grats to you then, Einstein :) The next time you reject that karazhan-geared hunter that only needs rep, bear in mind that they might be an alt of that well-geared tank or healer that you're whispering to join at some point in the future.

That's a risk you take.

A PuG can be better, or far far worse, than a group of people you know. The fact that you don't know people doesn't automatically make them useless, but it makes it an unknown. THey may turn out to be better than your usual friends, and sometimes are. It's a gamble.

There are probably more bad hunters out there there are bad players of many other classes. Therefore avoiding hunters who you don't know is influencing the odds of the gamble in your favour a bit. Equally I'm nervous about rogues I don't know, and about tankadins who I haven't seen tank.

Of course, avoiding them rudely may well backfire in the future, as you point out.

[Tollin]

Way too much blaming going on here for XXXX class doing this or XXXX class doing that, but let's be honest with each other. EVERYONE on these boards and yes that means you too KCMA, has caused a wipe once or twice in their day.

Rogue sap gets resisted or stealth is broken, not his fault.

Mage pulls too much aggro thanks to a high crit, and runs around like a screaming alpha aggroing more mobs.

Hunter's trap is resisted, or has the wrong target clicked and attacks the wrong one, over pull.

Priest goes OOM while trying to do some dps while healing.

Priest is drinking beers at home, and is too drunk to heal right.

Priest has the wrong person targeted and wondering why his heals are not
filling up the tanks health bars.

Priest pulls aggro due to heals, fade is on cooldown and dies in two hits, before anyone can come to help him/her.

Hunter was solo grinding when he/her got invite, left pet on aggressive.

Warrior is in DPS gear and left tanking gear in the bank.

Paladin is out of mana.

Shaman is out of mana

Group jumps off (insert spot here), hunter/lock forget to dismiss pet first.

I can go on and on and on...

Shoot what about the mobs you are fighting and they resist spells, etc... ???

Wipes happen, and A LOT of times its no ones fault really so stop playing the blame game, and if it was your fault admit your mistake and move on.

NOW if I am in a PUG I tell them i have a 3 wipe limit. IF we wipe 3 times I am leaving the party. And this is on my lvl 63 priest. I figure by then everyone should know what their class' role is supposed to be, unless we discuss it otherwise for example fearl druid wants to tank, warrior is fury specced and wants to dps, we have two priests one shadow, the other holy, paladin wants to tank and is prot spec etc.. IF the group discuss those changes and everyone is fine with it then, please fulfill your aggreed to role.

When i play my shaman and i get group invites i ask what they want me to do before I say yes or no. I am enhancement, i.e. dps specced, and if I want to heal I have all +intellect, +spirit gear in the bank so I can if needed. But if I dont WANT to heal I will tell them no if thats what they want.

BUt that doesn't mean that while dps'ng in an instance I cant back up and help the main healer if he/she needs it, i did it last night in maradun.

Wipes are part of the game and when i cause them and yes i do cause them from time to time, see newby thread, I admit to it and move on. IF the group gets mad at me and calls me names I leave the party and go do something else.

[moopy]

There are probably more bad hunters out there there are bad players of many other classes. Therefore avoiding hunters who you don't know is influencing the odds of the gamble in your favour a bit. Equally I'm nervous about rogues I don't know, and about tankadins who I haven't seen tank.

Of course, avoiding them rudely may well backfire in the future, as you point out.

Dunno, I've grouped with a few unknown hunters recently, and my impression is that they've smartened up their act as a whole, now that people actually want CC and kiting. I've seen (I hope you're sitting down) traps used correctly, tanked targets fired upon, C-beams glittering in the dark near Tannhauser gate. My big bugbear right now is single target "tanks"- ones who think they can just whack one target and forget about the rest. Unfortunately, you actually need a tank for lv 70 instances, so you can't pull a sulk like Keanu above and refuse to group with them :)

(For "tank", read Warrior, BAER or tankadin- all can do the job if they have a good spec and gear)

Oh, and Tollin.. wipes are not inevitable in standard 5-mans, far from it. I've had plenty where not even a hunter pet has died. The dealbreaker with wipes is if they are stupid and avoidable, and whether the group learns from them, or does the same thing again right away.

[Pin]

Gotta love it when a lock SS himself... That should be nuff reason to find another player :P.

I dread the day when I do this by accident, got to 70 so far without doing it.

Everytime I ss though, and the little effect goes off, I look to see if I did it on myself xD

[Kitano]

Priest is drinking beers at home, and is too drunk to heal right.

Strangly this seems to happen to Hunters too... or is that just me? :laughing:

[Twoflower]

Wipes happen, and A LOT of times its no ones fault really so stop playing the blame game, and if it was your fault admit your mistake and move on.


I have to disagree there. It is always someone's fault. And if you just try to find out what happened and how yoou can avoid the same mistake, it is not the "blame-game".

It is like a computer, errors dont "just happen", there is always something the user did that lead to the error. Same whit wipes in instances, there is always a reason.

Like curator yesterday, 1st try the DD's were asleep and didnt put out half the damage they should. 2nd try was better, but the tank was just too undergeared ( new tank in the guild ). So we had to analyse this, get the DD's to wake up, get our normal tank in and we killed him on the 3th attempt. Whibout analysing what happened during the fight we could have spend 10 more tries whibout getting any closer to a kill.

[Tollin]

Hey Moopy I did not mean to imply that they are inevitable but only to say that sometimes they are UNAVOIDABLE and that is thru no one elses fault really.

Well, kitano, sadly that is from personnal experience

[maladroit2000]

I have to disagree there. It is always someone's fault. And if you just try to find out what happened and how yoou can avoid the same mistake, it is not the "blame-game".


It isn't always someone's fault. Sometimes there can just be a bad run of crits/crushing blows and the tank dies, for example in heroic slave pens when fighting the big bog lords that hit like hell. Or maybe in Shadow Lab the healer is ganked by an assassin that emerges right after the pull of the large group of elites. Or perhaps a mob stuns the tank and goes straight for the healer. Often the group make up is just not suited to a particular encounter making it extremely difficult.

But I agree with what you say about trying to figure out how to do things better after a wipe.

[swaldman]

Dunno, I've grouped with a few unknown hunters recently, and my impression is that they've smartened up their act as a whole, now that people actually want CC and kiting.

Fair point actually, in the space between 60 and 70, either the vast hunter masses have learned to play, or the useless ones have given up. Things have improved.

Re single-target-tanks, I always assumed up to about lvl 65 or so that they were hardcore raiders who had forgotten how 5-mans work. The fact that the worst offenders were often in full tier 2 didn't do much to disprove this.... but there are still a fair few about at 70, and I'm sure the raiders would have remembered how to play by that point...

[moopy]

Hey Moopy I did not mean to imply that they are inevitable but only to say that sometimes they are UNAVOIDABLE and that is thru no one elses fault really.


I love it when you can pop those cooldowns and avert what looks like a certain wipe, that's just wonderful. The "manly" pulls, the rogues popping up where you don't want them, the DCing tank. Sometimes the unavoidable is avoidable if you don't give up hope.

I've seen warriors DCtanking 40 man raid bosses before now. I have been one of two healers keeping an MT up on firemaw because someone pulled while most of the raid isn't ready. I love it on those occasions when you can avoid the unavoidable :)

Yes, there's sometimes nothing you can do, but it's always worth going down fighting.


Re single-target-tanks, I always assumed up to about lvl 65 or so that they were hardcore raiders who had forgotten how 5-mans work. The fact that the worst offenders were often in full tier 2 didn't do much to disprove this.... but there are still a fair few about at 70, and I'm sure the raiders would have remembered how to play by that point...

Funny you should say that. A guildie rogue was doing a heroic last night, or trying to. He joined a promising-looking group that lacked a tank. After a few minutes futzing about, someone snagged one dripping in tier 4. He was quite upbeat about the prospect of a fast run with a solid tank. About 30 mins later, the group fell apart due to repeated wipes, as the tank couldn't tank more than one mob at once.

It makes you wonder- what do these people do on large trash packs? Mass tanking is kinda core skill, even for raiders.

[swaldman]

As I found out last night when the warrior DCed mid-pull, healtanking holds aggro amazingly well :)

Aye, that it does :-)
It's just a shame that you can't dodge/block/parry while healing, or we pallies would do it a whole lot more :grin:

In general, tankadins can't heal effectively while tanking... but that does't stop us getting a quick heal off if nobody else is able to do it.

[moopy]

Aye, that it does :-)
It's just a shame that you can't dodge/block/parry while healing, or we pallies would do it a whole lot more :grin:

In general, tankadins can't heal effectively while tanking... but that does't stop us getting a quick heal off if nobody else is able to do it.

Yeah, same with shammies. Although I have the 70% interrupt avoidance talent, and can slap earthshield on myself (which has a 30% interrupt avoidance effect)- thus reducing interruption to manageable levels- it does waste cast time better spent elsewhere if I have to faff about keeping myself up :)

[NOYB]

Most wipes seem to happen because people either a) don't know how to take directions b) don't want to take directions c) too emo to take constructive criticism. "It's my $15 a month. Don't tell me how to play!" Sorry, but if you always do the wrong thing, I'm going to tell you what you're doing wrong.

[Silverhand]

Don't know if this is the right thread to say this - but its typical of many about PUGs on this forum

I can only go by the people I know that play WoW -but. The majority are casual players (some even have a life).
They don't have the time to do instances except on infrequent occasions and are generally just happy doing quests (or soloing instances when they get to higher levels).
I only instance when I know I'll have the time to do it - I just don't like letting other people down by leaving early.

Most of us just join a guild because we're sick of getting lots of guild invitations and we know we can't take a full part because of time constraints. I've got three kids who want my time at the weekend and my wife thinks that playing games is for kids not a grown man - so I get lots of hassle at night if I stay up too late.
I can't plan ahead to do an instance so if i find I've got the time I'll join a PUG. I read these forums when I can and try and make use of all the advice. Trouble is playing your role in a group correctly needs lots of practice which I can't get. So when I play (and yes I've caused some wipes) I get lots of "Noob" comments - very little help - even when I've explained my lack of experience.

There are lots of people like me out there - we want to play the game the best we can but haven't got the time - so, sorry to the people we wiped. But we pay our money over like everyone else.


To me - this is a very good RL post in a thread sprinkled with twitchy vents. I'm the same type of player as Loubesian - 45 years old, very demanding job, super wife who is patient with my gaming because it relieves stress but not shy about letting me know when it intrudes on the more important RL stuff and two great kids who should and do get most of my at home time (TG my son plays as well :thumbsup: )

I belong to one of the big, well established raid groups on my server and have truly enjoyed the opportunities that come with guild membership. Having said that, I'm lucky if I get a couple of hours every evening to play once the children are down, the chores are done and the work is finished. That game time is split between grinding, questing, leveling, trade skill development, AH play and an occasional instance. This generally means I'm behind the power curve (level and gear) compared to most of my guild mates.

When it comes to instances and raiding, you would be hard pressed to find an instance that is not going to consume less than 2 hours and that is a commitment I normally can't make unless it's very late on Friday - Saturday night and everyone else has called it a night. When our group was running ZG on a regular basis, my family let me carve 4 hours out of our Saturday evening to do this on a regular basis but that was a huge exception to the daily rule. Because of this, I usually come late to most instances. Thankfully, my guild has some giving folks who don't mind stepping back a bit both to bring me through some of the end game content that they did months ago as well as take the time to coach me on technique.

My point (I do have one - sorry for the length) is that I believe my profile, if not representative of the majority of WOW players, does represent a very large subsegment. For us, PUGs are an inescapeable part of the game. We do instances when we can and that usually doesn't fit into guild schedules. We take what we can get, when we can get it, and find a way to enjoy it - warts and all. I've had my share of PUG meltdowns but they've been surprisingly rare. I've also had my share of wipes - many for the reasons listed up in various posts throughout this thread. I meet occasional idiots, incompetents and ingame sociopaths in PUGs. In large part, however, the PUGs I've run with have been relatively solid. I've met some great players in PUGs. I've also met a lot of people like me - journeymen who are just happy to be there. If it weren't for PUGs, I wouldn't have enjoyed as much of the game as I have - so thank goodness for 'em.

A few rules I do follow:

*Take the time to talk a bit before you jump into the light - a minute or two of conversation will help you pick out problem players. If there are too many, you can always bow out to take a phone call or be called away to deal with spousal aggro.

*Look for players from the bigger guilds - its not always a reliable indicator of competence but it tilts the odds in your favor.

*Figure out early on who the leader needs to be and fall in line. Many of my disasters have involved bad group dynamics - too many alphas.

*Set ground rules early on loot and group roles & responsibilities and insist on 100% compliance.

*Talk it up - decent PUGS tend to go through the normal forming, storming, norming, performing group dynamic evolutions - and they evolve faster if people are talking in a constructive way.

As stated, most of my PUG experiences have been decent - many superb - and I've met a bunch of great players. For many of us, it's not an option but a reality that needs to be managed.

Cheers,

Silverhand

[Rysteranch]

Completely agree Silverhand. I'm in the same spot (without the demanding job - just a boring one), and I've just joined a guild that poses as a casual guild, but I see the seeds of a hardcore raiding one shining through. I know I don't have the time for raiding, and I don't know if I want to. It sounds a lot like a job with all the stress and accouterments.

I'll just have to wait and see. My highest toon with this server is only 26, so I have a long way to go before dealing with that issue.

[Katrala]

I consider wipes to be a normal part of learning an instance or learning to work with a particular group.

What really ticks me off are the people who, after wiping, say, "If I die again - I'm gone," as if they are threatening the group, etc. I've found that those groups usually don't last very long and very rarely actually complete the instance.


Take the time to talk a bit before you jump into the light - a minute or two of conversation will help you pick out problem players.
YES!

I always try to start each PUG with some conversation and make sure that we are all clear and in agreement on group roles, markings, etc. If others don't want to discuss these things, then I usually won't go into the instance.

I hate those that just want to rush right into the instance instead of going in with some type of plan and seeing what each party member is going in for.

Also.. maybe it's just me, but I can't stand for people to be chatting in party chat during fights about off-topic stuff. We're close to wiping and the hunter and warlock are having a conversation about P. Diddy - I have no idea how they can be really paying attention at the same time!

[murderousmic]

I run pugs all the time because most people in my guild are usually offline when I'm on. I'm on Pacific Time on an Eastern Server.

I run pug's daily. They are mostly good, at least on my server. The higher level the instance the better. I even have met and ran with some people from pugs often because we are both on at the same times running the same instances.

Sometimes they can be flawless. Everyone doing what they should, someone leading and marking pulls, everyone getting along. Sometimes they can be a nightmare but you can usually sense what will happen even before you get in the instance, and I would leave before any wipes happen.

Some of the pugs I've ran with lately have plowed through instances with no troubles at all.

[Rysteranch]

The main reason for wiping that I've seen (highest level toon is 49) is people who try to rush through an instance; the adrenaline junkies who "play better under pressure" are the usual culprits. Of course, being the "old man", I would much rather plan out an attack and adapt for unplanned adds, instead of everyone going all out in a slug/wipe fest.

[swaldman]

Also.. maybe it's just me, but I can't stand for people to be chatting in party chat during fights about off-topic stuff. We're close to wiping and the hunter and warlock are having a conversation about P. Diddy - I have no idea how they can be really paying attention at the same time!

Meh. I do this (ok, not about p. diddy, whoever that is...). You can type an awful lot during a Holy Light cast, or while auto-attacking :grin:

I do get awfully embarassed if somebody dies while I was chattering though.

[moopy]

I do get awfully embarassed if somebody dies while I was chattering though.

/blush

There is absolutely no truth in the rumour that I was consulting maps and digging up co-ordinates for alliance FPs in Blade's Edge for a guildie while we were doing the gladiators in SH last night, nooo.

On the other hand, we had a wonderful tank, a hunter who could trap properly (as you might have guessed, I am very hard to please on points of hunter technique, but this guy was great), and a guildie mage and lock sheeping and fearing. Add to that my healing stream totem and Earthshield on the tank, and maybe you do get a little slack when they're ticking with +1500 healing or so :)

[Grendo]

Im surprised, Moopy. Youre missing the core paladin specific points that makes me wonder ;p

healtanking holds aggro amazingly well :) You get into a vicious circle- you're second on the aggro list due to heal threat, tank goes- *bam* you have a fan club. You're taking loads of damage, so you start cranking out the big heals on yourself, thus generating even more threat- even the overnuking rogue wasn't getting hit.Im going to have to blame some shoddy dps here, if the 'healtank' was a paladin (which I assume must have been, since bears dont have any 'big heals'). Paladins, due to this exact issue, have an innate decrease on the threat of their heals..to prevent healtanking abuse. Now, this can be somewhat bypassed with IRF, giving you 30% additional aggro (30% negated from the -30% innate), but most paladins I know arent using IRF for healing, unless a fight requires the 6% dmg reduction due to massive aoes.

Yeah, same with shammies. Although I have the 70% interrupt avoidance talent, and can slap earthshield on myself (which has a 30% interrupt avoidance effect)- thus reducing interruption to manageable levels- it does waste cast time better spent elsewhere if I have to faff about keeping myself up :)Its not so much about being interrupted. Concentration aura + our less-interupt talent gives us more than 100% chance to avoid interruption. The problem is, while you are healing, you open your defenses up, as you cannot do things like block while casting. (Hence the change in 2.1, that allows at least instants to not prevent defense). Thus you take much more damage, and need much more healing - its a viscious and often pointless circle. This is also why tanks shouldn't be required to heal themselves unless an instant (holy shock, or LoH), or they are trying to survive for some greater purpose (DI). If its a wipe, just wipe.

Wipes are at times inevitable. The worst PuGs Ive had were due to someone in the group not able to get over themselves after a wipe, deciding that their 1g the wipe cost them is not worth completing the instance without *****ing and moaning. Dying in this game has less penalty than any other MMO ive ever played. I just laugh when people find it a big deal during those 'oh well' wipes (unlike the multiple-wipes due to one person kind. I have no problem booting people in these situations). The only bad PuGs I know are the kind filled with drama queens. They might not all work out, but who cares, its still better than the myriad of problems youre hiding from in real life. If the game always went how you wanted it, it wouldnt be horribly boring.

[swaldman]

Im going to have to blame some shoddy dps here, if the 'healtank' was a paladin (which I assume must have been, since bears dont have any 'big heals'). Paladins, due to this exact issue, have an innate decrease on the threat of their heals..to prevent healtanking abuse. Now, this can be somewhat bypassed with IRF, giving you 30% additional aggro (30% negated from the -30% innate), but most paladins I know arent using IRF for healing, unless a fight requires the 6% dmg reduction due to massive aoes.

If you actually try to do this it does work quite well - with a maxxed-out I.RF you have +90% threat from holy spells, so using Blizzard's usual idea of adding percentages (:ponder:), that is +60% on heals. If you're aoe-tanking and have plenty of incoming healing but aren't sure about the aggro, it can work nicely to heal yourself while Consecration ticks :-)

The problem is, while you are healing, you open your defenses up, as you cannot do things like block while casting. (Hence the change in 2.1, that allows at least instants to not prevent defense).

*Instants* prevent defense?
eek. I never knew that. For how long?

[Grendo]

*Instants* prevent defense?
eek. I never knew that. For how long?Just for the cast. Basically, if you sheath your shield in order to perform the action, the shield is not 'active' until the animation re-unsheaths it. At least a little good news about 2.1 for warriors and paladins.

[swaldman]

Just for the cast.

.... but it's instant...? :ponder:

Basically, if you sheath your shield in order to perform the action, the shield is not 'active' until the animation re-unsheaths it.

REALLY? This would be about the only place in the whole game where the animation was actually important, rather than the underlying figures. I always assumed that if the spell is instant, it would have no effect on anything else (be that blocks or auto-attacks). Yes, the animation changes, but that isn't usually relevant... :undecided:

[Grendo]

From the undocumented patch notes:

- You can now block attacks while your shield is in the sheathed position. Previously, Warriors and Paladins were vulnerable while using instant-cast abilities that caused their shield to momentarily appear on their back.

[ecanem]

I will give my 2c in here since I have grouped with probably 50-100 pugs in my career at least.

I have had my share of great pugs and my share of bad pugs but it seems as I have hit 70 I have had more good pugs than bad. For example, this past week I ran shadow labs with a group in 1 hr 15 minutes with me as the beartank, not one death the whole time. This was my FIRST run of shadow labs and I made it clear, i told them all when I joined the group and told them I only need a more experienced player to mark the mobs and to let me know of the boss tricks (although I will also have my laptop running reading about the boss before we do it). We had 3 situations that in a 'normal' pug would have been a guarenteed wipe, when we had a bad pull of 6-8 mobs 1 including one of the felgaurd guys who should only be pulled alone and we stuck it out. The reason was because even in the bad pull EVERYONE DID THIER JOB. The rogue dps'ed the catsers down before they could do the damage, the priest kept me healed great and when he was getting hit the enhancement shaman popped a few chain heals on us. I ran around doing little damage but pulling aggro from everyone and the hunter chain trapped. I would bet that lots of cooldowns were used too but we adapted to very bad situations and that is what a group needs to do.

You can't join a group thinking if something goes wrong its all over, you need to adapt fast and save the wipe. When I run instances in cat form (dps) if there is a particularly bad pull or the group gets aoe'd and the priest is having trouble healing everyone, I will pop out and heal some and if its really bad blow my tranquility cooldown and heal the entire group.

Having someone who knows the instance is KEY, I ran arcatraz this past week again my first run (first runs this week: SH,SL,Arc,OH,Mech with arc being the only failure) and let the group know I would just need to be told what was coming up. Nobody said anything, I had to pull at my own discression hoping there werent any bad pulls. Everything went ok until the 2nd bosses where nobody told me about thier tricks and we wiped, and wiped, and wiped. We got past them and wiped, and wiped. The group just had no cohesion, some members didnt realize that the mobs we were fighting broke the rulls of aggro (random attacks on players) and would run around pulling them out of melee range of me and the rogue. We ended up not finishing that time and it sucked but I saw it coming the whole time.

Every class can screw up, its making up for that screw up before you die. I have swiped a mob out of CC before but I made sure the mob attacked me so it could be CC'ed again without hurting another member. As a cat I have critted mobs for 3000+ 2-3 times in a matter of seconds and grabbed aggro, I don't run but I make sure the priest is close enough to heal me.

As for why I played in so many pugs, I joined a low level guild when I started playing about 4 months ago, I had a decent amount of free time and outleveled everyone to 70 and never had anyone to group with. So I joined pugs and I made lots of friends from pugs who I still talk to today and I also am in my current guild because I was in a pug with them and they liked me. I play late nights because I work in the day now and have a fiance I must spend time with, so I can't schedule instances. PUG's have been good to me and I have gotton lots of good gear from the pugs.

Thats my 2c for now...

[coani]

<moppy> "Yes, there's sometimes nothing you can do, but it's always worth going down fighting."

amen to that.

I pretty much never stop doing whatever I can even if wipe is certain, because I'm too stubborn to give up "easily".
even on my hunter, I'd wipe almost as much as anyone else because I'd rather try to milk that last drop of desperate dps than hiding instantly in a corner & FD like some do.

what I hate are people who quickly go "zomg its a wipe!" and give up instantly and dont do anything but spam chat while everybody else tries hard to prevent a wipe (with one less player active...) and often succeed. "zomg we didn't wipe? omg!" - tseric's famous last word "get off my internets" comes to mind ;P


silent type: how much does it scare you halfway through an instance when your tank says "me no guud inglis" (cue in: wipes).

stereotyping players by class: how can you know if they are bad players if you never group with them and/or never see them in action? (fact: bad players happen to all classes, even at lvl 70)

[YamahaGuy]

OP yeah its normal

And yeah people get pissy about it because people don't like to die.

Im sure most dont mind a couple accidents. Its just when it becomes left and right repeated wipes people really start to get angry/ disgruntled

But I'll also tell you this

I pugged my way to exalted with sha'tar, exalted with honor hold, and exalted with cenarian expedition. I met a LOT of cool people, friends and good players.

Then, I'll tell you about one of my shattered halls runs. =) This before we had it on easymode, when I was working on my first sword from honor hold.

We got this warlock who AOE on every pull, and get like 3-4 mobs on em and die. Like every pull!

We had a rogue who try pickpocket the 7 elite pulls and one resisted it, and we all died!

Then on the next attempt, after we all walked back, the hunters trap broke. The hunter feigned, so it killed the healer. Most of us died! Again!

So, healer used soulstone, got most of us up.

GET THIS

The rogue ran out of the instance. And mobs were following him aye? So they mobs reset and came back to us, and we all died! AGAIN WE DIE! for a stupid reason >.<

Warlock quit, and we got a shadow priest. What we didn't know, was in shattered halls, if you mind control a mob (nice cc!) and kill it last, the whole group respawns on top of you for some buggy reason.

And we all died! AGAIN! And all bickering and arguing over it every time!

We died couple times on second boss.
We died many times on last boss and didnt beat him

It was a sad day indeed.

[murderousmic]

I don't know experience the reasons for all the hunter hate because I'm usually the only hunter in groups and people are generally pleased with what I bring. When I have grouped with other hunters, in Outlands, I have been pleasantly surprised at their skill level.

That said, in the pugs I run with I have had more problems with mages than any other class. Nuke>draw aggro>run around stirring up mobs and/or frost nova(ing) to get away, but breaking ALL cc. Still I get snubbed from groups because Mages bring free water. /scoff

But still, you will have a wipe every so often no matter what. Everybody won't be on point 100% of the time ever. As long as whoever caused it, owned up and apologizes I really don't have a problem with it. Unless it's a recurring theme.

[Grendo]

Having an old hunter main, I understand both sides of the 'find a dps...not a hunter' argument. The problem I have with most hunters found in PuGs (not all mind you) is their inability to DPS as well as they could due to shot cycle changes.

Skill between random hunter1 and hunter2 has gotten better - mainly because most of the old zomgdps hunters left a long time ago to the new flavor of the week. However, most hunters I run into can either do extremely well trapping, or extremely well dpsing. The few that could do both quickly made it to my friends list for future groups.

Meanwhile, most mages ive grouped with have no problem keeping up constant dps, and sheeping is much more..simple and dependable. Add in free water, and a portal out when youre done, and they simply bring more to a 5man with relatively low risk.

While my heroic group generally includes guildies (WAR/LOCK/MAGE/HUN/PALLY), should we need to fill a dps gap, we often find ourselves holding out in the late night hours for the lock and mage spot, while we will easily replace the hunter spot with any number of class combinations.

[Murmuring]

IMHO part of the reason for the technical playing skill upgrade to hunters between level 60 and 70 is the inevitability of multi-mob pulls in Outland. The simple fact is that the mobs in Outland are closer together / patrol intersecting areas more than they did in Azeroth, so your average hunter gets more exprerience of CC, multi-mob pulls and pet control even if he /she / it has never run an instance in their life.

Probably true for all classes, truth be told, but especially for +pet classes.

[Lobothomy]

IF you pug: try to remember which person did their part and knew what they were doing. That's how i build up my friendslist and sooner or later you will know enough tanks/healers so you no longer need to pug yer entire group.

[IRPander]

IF you pug: try to remember which person did their part and knew what they were doing. That's how i build up my friendslist and sooner or later you will know enough tanks/healers so you no longer need to pug yer entire group.

Or possibly join a growing guild with levels around the same area as you and level with them. Chances are they'll have a flavor of every class and it's always good to throw a guild group together and run as one. Helps build relationships with your fellow guild mates.

[Telmar]

It isn't always someone's fault. Sometimes there can just be a bad run of crits/crushing blows and the tank dies

Erm, if you're lvl 70 your tank shouldnt be crittable, and they should be using shield block / paladin equivelent to ensure they arent taking crushings in a row.

Anyhow, with regards to wiping in instances, Im in a fairly respectable raid guild, we're no Nihilum, but we do ok, and its normal as far as I'm concerned to have at least one 'stupidity wipe' per instance run. Generally its a 'i reckon we can take 7 of these packs at once' type event, where it turns out that no, we cant pull the entire room before blackhand the inciter, regardless of how much we might want too. In raids its the same, I'll allow one 'stupidity wipe' per raid, it normally results in me telling off whoever caused it, and using my own special brand of made up insults to express just how irritating it is. But no one will get replaced for causing the first wipe of a night.

Some of our wipes have been hilarious. One of the more memorable was on Gruul, when no one on our server had downed him yet and our hunter class leader came out with 'I didnt get knocked up in the air that time and i was sat down during shatter. Lets try everyone sitting down next one!'. I agree that its worth a shot, thinking 'this is stupid' to myself, while hoping that it'll work and call it on VT. The MT sits down, obviously gets crit for about a billion, gruul then ground slams, and at least 15 of the raid all land in the middle, still sitting down, in fits of giggles at the MT getting owned, then prompty explode. Obviously we wipe :P

Even now when we're working out a strat for a new boss (we dont look up any strats or info until we've spent at least one raid on a boss, so we can work out how WE want to tackle it first) we still get shouts of 'OMG GUYS, I'VE GOT AN IDEA, EVERYONE /SIT' over VT :P

Wiping is a part of learning, if we don't wipe in an instance, then we arent pushing hard enough imo. Its the only way to feel your limits.

[swaldman]

Erm, if you're lvl 70 your tank shouldnt be crittable, and they should be using shield block / paladin equivelent to ensure they arent taking crushings in a row.


THat's perhaps a little unfair - I doubt that many tanks arrive at lvl 70 already uncrittable, and they have to gear up sometime...
But yes, I guess what you're trying to say is that tank gear is important, and that's very true.

The uncrushable thing shouldn't be relevant in 5-mans : the bosses only go up to lvl 72, so as long as the tank is lvl 70 they shouldn't get crushed anyway. (AIUI crushing blows only happen when there is a 3-lvl difference between mob and victim)

[Wiired]

It shouldn't happen too much. When I have bad groups, my problem is usually the DPS going crazy and pulling threat. A nice cure to this is making sure they assist me.

Your group should ALWAYS assist you, if you're the tank. I'm assuming you are since you're a Protection Paladin.

You might have to tell them numerous times, but it'll prevent a wipe.

[Steamboat]

To the OP:

It all depends on how much we've had to drink.

[Muitnep]

To the OP:

It all depends on how much we've had to drink.

All too true...
I think the amount of beer is directly correlated to how awsome I am.

as consumption increases, so does my ability to play well

(at least I think so)

[Schift]

Well, grats to you then, Einstein :) The next time you reject that karazhan-geared hunter that only needs rep, bear in mind that they might be an alt of that well-geared tank or healer that you're whispering to join at some point in the future.

Can't work out if you're a troll, or just not the sharpest implement in the toolkit.

Wow Moopy, you just dropped a few points in my book. I know his post hit home a bit, but I would have expected something a lot more reasonable from you explaining why you thought his point may not be so accurate.

As far as I can tell, he was just expressing his experience in PUGing and observed that although every person behind a character can make a mistake, hunters that aren't played well have many tools to wipe an instance easier than other classes. This is arguable. It also seems like you just ignored that he said that hunters are an awesome addition to a group and jumped down his throat a bit out of context. Stereotypes are bad and I wish you would have chosen a better way to point that out. :undecided:

Eratia, I think you were very calm and collected responding and I respect that. My experience has also shown hunters, more than many other classes, to be more common in causing wipes when they play badly, but like Moopy, I wouldn't just discount them as a class before you talk to the specific player a bit or at least give them a chance. Just like a terrible hunter can ruin a group worse than some other classes, a great hunter, like you said, is well worth the slot.

[det]

After going to Netherwing Ledge for the first time yesterday, I'd say it is normal to wipe / die in the game, period ^^

[Wintrow]

Death is part of life... Embrace it... and get the Darkmoon Card: Twisting Nether :grin:

BTW: I have Two -> Seven of Beasts, anyone wanna trade with 'of Portals' ? Aggramar EU Alliance

[Chevalrich]

K just thought i'd write some things down :p

I have tried priest and yes, healing is hard when u are shadow specced bcuz u waste mana fast. But dont say its impossible. Thats just plain selfish
True, but try Mind Controlling a elite acolite (healer mob) and you'll be the best healer possible :p A Shadow priest saved my ass in SL a couple of times when the holy priest died.
ipes do happen, but it’s generally because of the tank, hunter or healing classes that won’t heal
You forget that some people don't know that they have a tough job deciding who to let live and who to die. If someone makes a complete fool of himself for example: a class that keeps WAY over agroing, out of range for healing or bad use of skills ect, it can cause a severe strain on the healer's mana, and i can understand if a healer let's this someone die to learn him a lesson he won't forget ^^.
Also:
I must admit (I forgot to mention it), that as someone else said, we even wipe on some guild/friend runs. But that’s usually followed by a civil discussion about what went wrong, and a ROFL to whoever’s fault it was. Not insults and the blame-game.
That's the way to do it, wipes happen, a learning curve, you won't believe how many times you can wipe in Kara with 10 people just to learn a fight like Netherspite, it's frustrating, it's lol but no reason to be angry if people make a mistake offcourse.
The majority are casual players (some even have a life).
They don't have the time to do instances except on infrequent occasions and are generally just happy doing quests (or soloing instances when they get to higher levels). [quote]

Silverhand mate nice threat (Page 6 #54)
Also: As long as they don't go AFK to feed/walk the dog more then 5 min for multiple times it's ok by me :) Every class have it's worth.
[quote=loubesian]I've got three kids who want my time at the weekend and my wife thinks that playing games is for kids not a grown man
Feel you there mate :) whenever in an instance (and u told here) your wifes/GFs tent to want double attention... of all the times lol.. and get pissed when you don't do that ^^
I get lots of "Noob" comments
Beginner is a better, all were beginners one time or another, i hate the word noob unless it's made as a joke by a friend :) , the word 'noob' might makes people angry and angry people make even more mistakes, lose=lose situation.
Page 4 post #36
^=O-O=^ nice one mate :D

Mage pulls too much aggro thanks to a high crit, and runs around like a screaming alpha aggroing more mobs
Made me smile:D i'm a mage, in some occations i sacrifice myself over agroing on a mob who attacking the priest and 'try' kiting them around and pray a warrior or hunter picks it off you with a taunt or trap, although not easy and not my job too do.. without a healer or a dead tank the party's no were :) offc carefull not pulling extra mobs haha.
Another thing happens to me often: mage counterspelling a caster mob and it runs into the hunter frost trap instead of the warrior/OT picking him off the intended target, forcing the hunter to scatter shot ...things to wach out for :)
Wipes happen, and A LOT of times its no ones fault really so stop playing the blame game, and if it was your fault admit your mistake and move on.

I have to disagree there. It is always someone's fault. And if you just try to find out what happened and how yoou can avoid the same mistake, it is not the "blame-game".
Both are right, imo a blame game is: "ffs noob you wiped us", and avoid another wipse is "what just happned". 2 totally different things :)

there's sometimes nothing you can do, but it's always worth going down fighting
Every class has the ability to turn the tide indeed. Fun to do: 2 mages sheep 2 mobs and dps down the 3th, then the other 2 one by one, kiting, snaring :) (bandage ftw hehe)
What we didn't know, was in shattered halls, if you mind control a mob (nice cc!) and kill it last, the whole group respawns on top of you for some buggy reason
Reported this to a GM?
That said, in the pugs I run with I have had more problems with mages than any other class. Nuke>draw aggro>run around stirring up mobs and/or frost nova(ing) to get away, but breaking ALL cc. Still I get snubbed from groups because Mages bring free water. /scoff
Lol m8 :D mages should only over agro when they know they can kill it (say last 20-30%) in 1-2 shots, if not they shouldn't agro :D
I've killed caster mobs in low lvl TBC dungeons as lvl 70 with scorch and AP, Trinket Pyro +PoMPyro combination, or some other combinations directly after warrior pull :D, and use frost nova to prevent mobs one shotting clothies (healers usually).
Frost nova cannot be used in tight corners, it breaks hunter traps, traps MC mobs (if your unlucky), breaks sheeps ect if your not carefull, but if you know it's range it can be verry effecive!

That's it for now, enjoyed this threat :p

[moopy]

silent type: how much does it scare you halfway through an instance when your tank says "me no guud inglis" (cue in: wipes).

A lot, always. However, sometimes you can be pleasantly surprised. A while back I got a tank who was russian, spoke very little English. Massive communication problems before the first pull, the party thought he didn't want to pull, he was trying to warn us that he was about it. It took a load of frustration and everyone USING BIG LETTERS in an angry way before anything was resolved.

It looked like the worst party ever. Shadow priest was overaggroing, tank seemed immune to all forms of communication. LOLguard warlock was cleaving and intercepting everything. I managed to persuade the shadow priest to stop using VE and just use VT- explaining that constantly pulling aggro was hard on my mana, and I didn't need the extra help with healing. Suggesting that he just used VT and nuked to his heart's content seemed to go down fairly well.. and *gasp* he actually did it. Result- damage increased, aggro decreased, mana supply increased. Profit.

It turned out that the tank was actually a really solid player, just no Shakespeare. We learned to keep things we said to him very easy to understand, and decode his replies (often only one or two words)- and it was all good. He waited for mana, he did LoS pulls, he kept his wits about him and spotted loose mobs- couldn't have asked for a better or more co-operative tank. We just needed to establish a protocol that included words that he understood, and then then he took great care of the group. A dwarf warrior with a penchant for one-word replies was more than fitting, really :)

The LOLguard warlock wasn't so great. She sucked at pet control, and constantly intercepted stuff that we were trying to pull out of the way. The only cure was to make her put away the LOLguard and get the imp out. Her damage sucked anyway, but at least with a phase shifted imp, she was less likely to wipe the party. The other lock, a destruction lock, cracked this one by posting dmg meters reports ostensibly for the shadow priest to look at, which showed that the LOLguarder (BM spec lock FTL!) was doing about 1/3 of the damage of either of the other two DPSsers (even before the switch to imp). Clearly a little shocked, she did eventually pull her socks up and figure out/remember how to DPS- it was obviously very different from pressing petattack and going back to sleep. Right before the end of the instance, she was actually doing proper damage, and using sensible spells- nuking noticably.

My only regret is that it took us most of the instance to get the party playing as a team, when it all clicked it was great. Smooth, efficient, fast-moving. Everyone finished on good terms- which was a turn-up for a group which looked utterly doomed up until about the first boss. People are funny things.

[NOYB]

I liked the anecdote of the russian tank. It seems like great role-play material.

[memetootoo]

I expect to wipe ALOT going into pugs, although I just ran shadowlabs with a complete pug blasted our way thorough it in record time, without any form of CC too, it was a lot of fun and a great change to what groups have been doing.

I asked in the beginning why we weren't going to use CC and they said dps is a form of CC -_- lol

[Chevalrich]

Also depends on the player's condition.

I remember at one time i had a top-notch guildy party in heroic ramparts , good dps, tanking and cc ect, but it was late, exept the (ARMS)tank all people including me were verry tired (tank insisted on getting a nether), all made dumb mistakes, pressing the wrong buttons, targetting the wrong mobs ect. caused us to have a few unecaserry wipes and instance took about 30 min longer due to a switch of players. I was totally beat, not a good thing to be if you have to work the next day (5h sleep).

Eventually the end boss despawned after our first wipe and we called it a day

[Qwertius]

thats very unfair to say, even the best guilds have to PuG it from time to time.

that are not PuGs. Members of the so called good guilds know 75% of the other good guilds members. If we come short for a guild only instance, we have an almost unlimited collection of friends, alts of friends, vague relatives of friends, distant cousins of vague relatives etc etc to tap into. Ok you end up with a group of 5 with 3 or 4 guild tags, but basically most know eachother, all are used to teamworking, ventrillo etc..

Result: easy running through any (heroic) instance. Wiping still might happen, but is rare and happens not because of ignorance, but always because of jokes, sillyness, not concentrating etc

with my main I don't think that I have been into more than 1 or 2 real PuGs in the whole of 2006.

(with my alts it's a complete different ball game.. )

[CFW]

There are lots of people like me out there - we want to play the game the best we can but haven't got the time - so, sorry to the people we wiped. But we pay our money over like everyone else.

Amen to this one...it's kinda hard to improve if no one helps! I have had a lot of people abandon me and only a few hang around. It is really amazing how much one can learn with a little patience!