Maybe someone can relate.

[YamahaGuy]

So yeah. My big raiding guild went boom a little bit ago just as we start SSC. Drama, infighting, failures, an MT that stopped playing, and a leader who x-fered servers to a farther progressed guild.

Leaving the reformed guild. Which initially, was the same guild, with less drama queens and more friends. Then, the leader goes AWOL. And some of our strongest healers. Then attendance hits the floor.

Our best players are all in this depressed / disinterested / burnt out feeling now and don't even log in. It hurts badly. So many of them havnt even logged in, or they only stopped by for an hour.

In leader absence, I've been running our raids. Which is tough and a lot of work.

The longer this pitfall draws out, the more people leave - like a trickling faucet. And each person that leaves makes it that much harder.

We can't even get people to log in. 9 healers and only 1 logged in last night. Leaving myself and many other DPS classes sitting around doing nothing. Can't even do heroics without healers. One stopped in, said hi then left. Sitting around doing nothing, another person leaves for the 'next best guild'.

Its tough. Its so hard to get attendance, get people to show up on time, prepared, ready to move and at the end of the day we come up short because of those problems. People who can't log in until an hour late. People who have to leave an hour after we start. Its one thing after another.

Put all this effort into things just to be left burnt out and not succeeding anymore.

Our server is small, so any big guild has the exact same people from other big guilds from the last two years. Its like, the drama and fighting will never change - it just moves around from here to there. It doesnt matter which guild you pick, you will be involved in it, engulfed by it, miserable from it. Guilds can't stay together cuz its the same old people who can't get along. When you put 25-35 people together who are all good players, they will always bicker and argue instead of just checking the ego/history at the door, and getting something accomplished as a working team.

They'll form some huge new guilds. They'll progress a bit for a couple months. Down some new bosses. Then boom, break apart, and de-progress once again.

Meanwhile watching videos of people downing SSC bosses and mag and doing great, its depressing.

There are a lot of good players on this small server. Their just "swept under the rug" really. All hiding out in little tiny "mom and pop" guilds who can't progress much at all. But you can't bring them together - they are loyal and most guilds are friendship-based. I cant understand why they are content wiping 6 times to take down something like moroes. Or not going at all. I just don't get it. I know they are great players, they come to heroics with us all the time.

Then they whisper and rant a bit, about 6 failed moroes attempts. To which I'll say "come with us next week. Its cake.". And they'll say "naw I cant do that." Then don't complain.

I know I made a nasty remark about this before, but half the few guilds on my server who have downed gruul was simply because he bugged out and did nothing the entire fight. =/ Im not ripping on little guilds or being leetist - I just want to see all the things blizzard has put in front of us, and where I am at now its not happening =( Im just not happy with our overall server status when I look around at whats hot and new.

Okay, so I jumped around a lot but heres the point.

I dont wanna be in one of the "next best remake guilds" with the same people same drama, same nastiness, jerks and problems from the last years on my tiny server

I don't wanna xfer out like alot of other raiders and leave my friends / family who play on my server behind, just to land in a raiding guild with the same drama, problems, issues and new jerks I havn't met. And when you do this, you become like "public enemy #1" or a sell out.

I'm not happy sitting around doing nothing most days because of attendance, and watching people leave because we can't do anything. Prince didnt die this week yet because of attendance. That makes me cry. Compare to 2 groups doing 2 day kara clears, including bane like the former guild.

I don't wanna put all this effort into something only to come up short every time.

Its hard to put good people together because of their own loyalties to their own small time, snails pace guild.

So I don't know where im going with WoW at the moment. I'm just "WoW miserable". Its like, every day I play I have this horrible headache =/ Its like, you have big goals, big ideas, you know what needs to be done but everyday theres a different massive brick wall in front of you keeping you from doing it

I know everyone plays this game for their own reasons and you gotta respect that. Some have big goals, some just play casually for fun. But am I looking at things the wrong way?

[DrOsmius]

I can relate somewhat...our guild was doing ok, fielding dual kara and had just downed King two weeks in a row...and then it fell apart. A few grumblers had all along been weakening the foundation, then a couple key people transferred, a couple quit the game, a few more decided to step back, the primary organizer has some ennui and is playing lotr.


That chain reaction type stuff, vicious circle, really is a self-sustaining process. I even soured on the game for a day or so, thinking of taking a long break (which ended after one night of good guild play).

Now we struggle to field 10, though it does look like it has arrested somewhat.

-----
Alliances were a good solution pre-BC, but no one seems receptive to the idea of alliances for 25-person raids. But really, I'd rather figure out a way build our own success rather than step into someone's else's, so I can also relate to those who'd rather wipe and hopefully master it rather than join you to make it cake.

But really, you've the nail on the head. Raiding isn't *just* about playing well. It is about an organization, one full of persons with no real responsibility to the organization (i.e. there is only the barest of penalties for being a problem person). That is why despite all the ridicule that gets foisted at "hardcore" raid guilds, they at least deserve the respect for managing such an organization.

PS. I doubt I'll ever see SSC myself...but there is a huge huge amount of very cool and fun content I'll never see, namely that of all the other games I'm not playing, and when put in that perspective, not seeing SSC doesnt really bother me.

[YamahaGuy]

Another thing thats really killing it is "the patch".

Basically, the feeling is, every heroic and raid will be nerfed hard, and every purple item will be buffed.

"Why bother doing anything until the patch" is the new mentality. People arn't motivated to do things, and when you want to throw attempts at these encounters people don't wanna go.

Because... its getting nerfed in the patch.

Even with high king. People think "why bother" cuz after tha patch, he'll drop 2 badge items and its even better.

Okay, so I'm hoping, when the patch hits, activity will sky rocket.

That is.... if half the guild isnt completly obsessed rep grinding for that special drake thing. Then it will be "cant go, im farming."

[Fursphere]

Just to put things into perspective...

You're whinning because your guildies aren't doing what YOU want to do?

Correct?

Sounds like you need to find some new guildies with the same kind of priorities as you.

[RasTa LiOn]

I am sure that you have other friends that play WoW on different servers, why dont you just transfer, and get into a different raiding guild with older people. Try for a guild of 30+ year olds, they are always nicer, and more laid back then the 13 yearold ROFLSTOMPERS! <-----*Grats to whoever pawned that phrase, i cant look at it without giggling* But it is like you tell the people from the so called "mom and pop" guilds, either do something about it, or dont complain!

[rgirty]

So yeah. My big raiding guild went boom a little bit ago just as we start SSC. Drama, infighting, failures, an MT that stopped playing, and a leader who x-fered servers to a farther progressed guild.

Leaving the reformed guild. Which initially, was the same guild, with less drama queens and more friends. Then, the leader goes AWOL. And some of our strongest healers. Then attendance hits the floor.

Our best players are all in this depressed / disinterested / burnt out feeling now and don't even log in. It hurts badly. So many of them havnt even logged in, or they only stopped by for an hour.

In leader absence, I've been running our raids. Which is tough and a lot of work.

The longer this pitfall draws out, the more people leave - like a trickling faucet. And each person that leaves makes it that much harder.

We can't even get people to log in. 9 healers and only 1 logged in last night. Leaving myself and many other DPS classes sitting around doing nothing. Can't even do heroics without healers. One stopped in, said hi then left. Sitting around doing nothing, another person leaves for the 'next best guild'.

Its tough. Its so hard to get attendance, get people to show up on time, prepared, ready to move and at the end of the day we come up short because of those problems. People who can't log in until an hour late. People who have to leave an hour after we start. Its one thing after another.

Put all this effort into things just to be left burnt out and not succeeding anymore.

Our server is small, so any big guild has the exact same people from other big guilds from the last two years. Its like, the drama and fighting will never change - it just moves around from here to there. It doesnt matter which guild you pick, you will be involved in it, engulfed by it, miserable from it. Guilds can't stay together cuz its the same old people who can't get along. When you put 25-35 people together who are all good players, they will always bicker and argue instead of just checking the ego/history at the door, and getting something accomplished as a working team.

They'll form some huge new guilds. They'll progress a bit for a couple months. Down some new bosses. Then boom, break apart, and de-progress once again.

Meanwhile watching videos of people downing SSC bosses and mag and doing great, its depressing.

There are a lot of good players on this small server. Their just "swept under the rug" really. All hiding out in little tiny "mom and pop" guilds who can't progress much at all. But you can't bring them together - they are loyal and most guilds are friendship-based. I cant understand why they are content wiping 6 times to take down something like moroes. Or not going at all. I just don't get it. I know they are great players, they come to heroics with us all the time.

Then they whisper and rant a bit, about 6 failed moroes attempts. To which I'll say "come with us next week. Its cake.". And they'll say "naw I cant do that." Then don't complain.

I know I made a nasty remark about this before, but half the few guilds on my server who have downed gruul was simply because he bugged out and did nothing the entire fight. =/ Im not ripping on little guilds or being leetist - I just want to see all the things blizzard has put in front of us, and where I am at now its not happening =( Im just not happy with our overall server status when I look around at whats hot and new.

Okay, so I jumped around a lot but heres the point.

I dont wanna be in one of the "next best remake guilds" with the same people same drama, same nastiness, jerks and problems from the last years on my tiny server

I don't wanna xfer out like alot of other raiders and leave my friends / family who play on my server behind, just to land in a raiding guild with the same drama, problems, issues and new jerks I havn't met. And when you do this, you become like "public enemy #1" or a sell out.

I'm not happy sitting around doing nothing most days because of attendance, and watching people leave because we can't do anything. Prince didnt die this week yet because of attendance. That makes me cry. Compare to 2 groups doing 2 day kara clears, including bane like the former guild.

I don't wanna put all this effort into something only to come up short every time.

Its hard to put good people together because of their own loyalties to their own small time, snails pace guild.

So I don't know where im going with WoW at the moment. I'm just "WoW miserable". Its like, every day I play I have this horrible headache =/ Its like, you have big goals, big ideas, you know what needs to be done but everyday theres a different massive brick wall in front of you keeping you from doing it

I know everyone plays this game for their own reasons and you gotta respect that. Some have big goals, some just play casually for fun. But am I looking at things the wrong way?

Let me summarize.

1. The people you have guilded with in the past, and the ones that are leaving for "progress" are in a simple term. Loot whores. They get pleasure from mousing over their "epixxx" when looking at their char. They jump to whatever guild they think can provide them more epix.

2. The people you talk about in "mom and pop" guilds wiping on moroes enjoy the game 100x more than the "disgrunted" players you are playing with. Thats why they won't join you. They ARE friendship based, and have a great time playing no matter what they are doing.

As long as you belong to group 1. the game will be frustrating, why do you have to be progressing in SSC to have fun? its a game.. in the end you play it to enjoy yourself, if you can only enjoy yourself by getting new lootz then..well, your in group 1 there and will likely face the same kind of problems you describe over and over.

If you belong to group 2, you are really enjoying yourself the game is fun and you care about progression but a good time is most important. I belong to this group. I've been playing with mostly the same people for over a year. We've been through about 8 raids together total and most of those in the last couple months which were 1 hour in duration as we were just doing attunemen.

When a friend and I created a new guild built around our playtime, within 10 days we had 50 members. Most of them people we had played with grouped with before.

Last night a couple of people asked "when are we going to raid again" I answered: "when we get this pally leveled to 70 so we'll have enough healing, it might be a week or more before we get back into kara, but then we should have a solid group" Several people answered "woot" and went about their business.

As long as you are surrounded by people playing for loot then you'll have the problems you describe, because the grass is ALWAYS greener somewhere else.

btw, I play a priest and have played a priest for a long time, we are still highly desired and I could join a number of end game raiding guilds but I don't. Because I have a great time with the people in my guild.

[Toolio]

My guild has survived two of these happenings. 1st one was about 8 or 9 months ago when half of the guild left because their friend got booted for spamming guild chat with prattle. And we just recently lost an entire Kara group because our GM didn't promote the raid leader to an officer position.

But we're still moving along. Sans a handful of players, most people in our guild are older and mature. A good number of us have kids... we play to get a break from children, not deal with them all over again.

Sorry I got OT. I've seen a few guilds break up. I guess on a long enough time line it's inevitable. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Maybe the remaining players that still log in would entertain the idea of joining a different guild instead of nurturing a dead guild?

[YamahaGuy]

Sorry I got OT. I've seen a few guilds break up. I guess on a long enough time line it's inevitable.

Well no, its not really off topic to me, it relates.

And yes, I am 27. Most of the 'kiddie' stuff and trade channel BS is one ear out the other and not a real issue. But everyone has a breaking point.

But it is like you tell the people from the so called "mom and pop" guilds, either do something about it, or dont complain! You have me on that one. Stubborn is as stubborn does, right? ^^ I just think I should ride it out a while and stay strong, maybe rant a bit to relief the frustrations recently

@rgirty

I think there should be a balance inbetween group 1 and group 2; cuz there are people who seek progression and success but dont do it as a loot whore

I think, almost everyone enjoys improving their character or getting something new. Just like how we run things 999 times until we get a shield or maybe a staff; or set item. Just how we farm for hours and hours for crafted gear and get excited when something for us drops

>But there are people who are 'modest' about that, and there are people who go completely nuts about it.<

Recently, someone left because we didn't promise him a T4 helm. Giving someone that over a person who didn't have a 1 piece yet, attends daily, and needs upgrades, wasn't good priority. Its not like he passed on it for someone else repeatedly, or attended every single raid and earned it... he just wanted it, didnt get it, so he left. To me, that would fall into group 1.

And I highly doubt his brand new guild is going to hand him a T4 helm on his first run...

We have people who will park there character outside of a raid because they are still flasked, log out and play on an alt until next time tomorrow. Not cuz anyone asked them to or not by any rules. I prob wouldnt do that. They do it because they wanted to.

Then, other people with no desire to go somewhere, unless they are getting something.

Sigh.

[rgirty]

I think there should be a balance inbetween group 1 and group 2; cuz there are people who seek progression and success but dont do it as a loot whore

There are a few of those, if you get a mirror you will find one. Now find a bunch others just like them.

[amgyn]

mom an dpop guilds... i like that phrase... sounds exactly like our guild :O


we broke off from a bigger guild because our raiding times, personalities and friendships were in-synch.... we had exactly 10, perfect group make up every time we raided... however as time passed people got burnt out and recruitment started.. now we have enough for 3 kara raids.. but only do 1... the main raiding group is a mish-mash... friendships dissolved :-/

anyway... i can relate... only advice i can give you is... move on :)